[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The goal is inherent in the system.. 'System' means 'intelligence'. Aieee, no. It can be used that way, but it can also be used without any implication of intelligence. All systems have intelligence related to them in some way. However, is the intelligence imposing order during its analysis of the system, or did an intelligence impose order in the *design* of the system? Gee, I wouldn't say order being imposed on a system during analysis by an intelligence means the system *itself* has intelligence. What about systems that have never been analyzed by an intelligence? What intelligence do they have related to them (if you exclude a designing intelligence)? System just means stuff that interacts in a more or less regular way. But of all the itneractions and materials and stuff that exist, YOU pick and chose what defines the system. Sure, but that still doesn't mean the system itself has intelligence. Didn't say that. Said that there is intelligence associated with any and all systems. Of all the possible bits and pieces of matter and energy in the universe in all thepossible subsets of them, we chose to talk about things like all living things on Earth. Why? Consider the water molecules of all the predators on earth and within 3 feet in all directions from all of them,including those within its prey and within neutral animals an plants. Would you call those a system? I guess you could, but I'm not sure of the relevance to what I was saying. Could you elaborate? That's thepoint. It's an arbitrary collection. All collections of particles are arbitrary in one sense. In another, we chose which ones to include or exclude based on intellect. Or consider the system I suggested to Offworld, a complicated solar system in a distant galaxy that has never been observed by a sentient being. How can there even be the intelligence related to the system via analysis? What is a solar system? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [...] Gee, I wouldn't say order being imposed on a system during analysis by an intelligence means the system *itself* has intelligence. What about systems that have never been analyzed by an intelligence? . Can you name one? Hypothetical, obviously. Let's say a very complicated solar system in a distant galaxy that no sentient being has ever observed. You just defined the system ahead of time: solar system. I don't think that's relevant to my point, which was whether the system has inherent intelligence. The system was devised by intelligence. You have a definition of solar system that you use. Why do you include or exclude membership in a system? What makes something part of OUR solar sytstem, rather than part of another? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The truth is every bit as much out there as it is in here. Is it? How do you know? (channelling Sparaig) :-) I watch public access, of course. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip This goes to the Shrodinger cat thought experiment. ie. Is the cat in the box dead or alive if no-one else sees it. It is therefore in a neither dead nor alive state This thought experiment is nonsense because it assumes only hhigher order animals (people) are observers, but all animals (and beyond ) are observers, including the flees in the cats skin, and even the parasites in its blood, it's very own cells as single celled organisms, and its very own DNA. Someone is always watching.everywhere. Even a planet is observing (experiencing) as is the sun. The fallacy of Shrodinger's cat is as yet not known to the scientific understanding on Earth Well, boy, you're right in line for a Nobel Prize, then, as soon as you make it known. It's one proposed solution tothe paradox. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [Offworld wrote:] [...] Gee, I wouldn't say order being imposed on a system during analysis by an intelligence means the system *itself* has intelligence. What about systems that have never been analyzed by an intelligence? . Can you name one? Hypothetical, obviously. Let's say a very complicated solar system in a distant galaxy that no sentient being has ever observed. You just defined the system ahead of time: solar system. I don't think that's relevant to my point, which was whether the system has inherent intelligence. The system was devised by intelligence. You have a definition of solar system that you use. Why do you include or exclude membership in a system? Yes, I see what you're saying, and I agree, but I *still* don't think it's relevant to the question of whether a system has *inherent* intelligence. Years ago I had a knock-down, drag-out argument on a quasi-scientific forum about whether it could be said that an encyclopedia, say, contained information. I maintained that it did not *inherently* contain information; the distribution of particles of ink on paper became information only when a sentient being was looking at it. Once the encyclopedia was closed, what was inside was no longer information. I forget now what the context was, but it made a difference to whatever we had been discussing. At any rate, I think this is related to what you're saying, i.e., there is no such thing as a system without an intelligence to identify it as such by isolating it from everything else. Hmm, I suspect all this points in the direction of Self-reference, but I'm not sure how to articulate it. On the other hand, maybe it's only a matter of definition of terms. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [Offworld wrote:] [...] Gee, I wouldn't say order being imposed on a system during analysis by an intelligence means the system *itself* has intelligence. What about systems that have never been analyzed by an intelligence? . Can you name one? Hypothetical, obviously. Let's say a very complicated solar system in a distant galaxy that no sentient being has ever observed. You just defined the system ahead of time: solar system. I don't think that's relevant to my point, which was whether the system has inherent intelligence. The system was devised by intelligence. You have a definition of solar system that you use. Why do you include or exclude membership in a system? Yes, I see what you're saying, and I agree, but I *still* don't think it's relevant to the question of whether a system has *inherent* intelligence. Defining a system means that it has intelligence in the sense that the system is pre ordered. Years ago I had a knock-down, drag-out argument on a quasi-scientific forum about whether it could be said that an encyclopedia, say, contained information. I maintained that it did not *inherently* contain information; the distribution of particles of ink on paper became information only when a sentient being was looking at it. Once the encyclopedia was closed, what was inside was no longer information. I forget now what the context was, but it made a difference to whatever we had been discussing. At any rate, I think this is related to what you're saying, i.e., there is no such thing as a system without an intelligence to identify it as such by isolating it from everything else. Hmm, I suspect all this points in the direction of Self-reference, but I'm not sure how to articulate it. On the other hand, maybe it's only a matter of definition of terms. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The truth is every bit as much out there as it is in here. Is it? How do you know? (channelling Sparaig) :-) I watch public access, of course. I watch public access - sounds as if the truth is in I to me :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/28/opinion/28dennett.html Is intelligent design a legitimate school of scientific thought? Is there something to it, or have these people been taken in by one of the most ingenious hoaxes in the history of science? Wouldn't such a hoax be impossible? No. Here's how it has been done. First, imagine how easy it would be for a determined band of naysayers to shake the world's confidence in quantum physics - how weird it is! - or Einsteinian relativity. In spite of a century of instruction and popularization by physicists, few people ever really get their heads around the concepts involved. Most people eventually cobble together a justification for accepting the assurances of the experts: Well, they pretty much agree with one another, and they claim that it is their understanding of these strange topics that allows them to harness atomic energy, and to make transistors and lasers, which certainly do work... Fortunately for physicists, there is no powerful motivation for such a band of mischief-makers to form. They don't have to spend much time persuading people that quantum physics and Einsteinian relativity really have been established beyond all reasonable doubt. With evolution, however, it is different. The fundamental scientific idea of evolution by natural selection is not just mind-boggling; natural selection, by executing God's traditional task of designing and creating all creatures great and small, also seems to deny one of the best reasons we have for believing in God. So there is plenty of motivation for resisting the assurances of the biologists. Nobody is immune to wishful thinking. It takes scientific discipline to protect ourselves from our own credulity, but we've also found ingenious ways to fool ourselves and others. Some of the methods used to exploit these urges are easy to analyze; others take a little more unpacking. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I don't have any particular affection for Schroedinger's cat. I'd be delighted if someone could show it was a fallacy. I'd be thrilled if celestial bodies could be shown to have consciousness. I had a revelatory experience once of becoming aware of the sun as a conscious being. Nice. What sort of Personality did it show you? :-) It lied all the time. :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip By what logic can you say the sun is not a conscious being? Where did I say it wasn't?? I said--see above--that I'd had the experience that it *was*, and that I would be thrilled to have scientific confirmation of that experience. How on *earth* do you turn that into my saying the sun is *not* a conscious being?? Well, you said that it is not so because it has not been confirmed by your scientists. (even though you know better). I said NO SUCH THING. Get a *grip*, man! So you do agree that the sun could be thought of as conscious? You seem unclear on what it is you think. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip By what logic can you say the sun is not a conscious being? Where did I say it wasn't?? I said--see above--that I'd had the experience that it *was*, and that I would be thrilled to have scientific confirmation of that experience. How on *earth* do you turn that into my saying the sun is *not* a conscious being?? Well, you said that it is not so because it has not been confirmed by your scientists. (even though you know better). I said NO SUCH THING. Get a *grip*, man! So you do agree that the sun could be thought of as conscious? You seem unclear on what it is you think. No, you seem unclear on what I said. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I don't have any particular affection for Schroedinger's cat. I'd be delighted if someone could show it was a fallacy. I'd be thrilled if celestial bodies could be shown to have consciousness. I had a revelatory experience once of becoming aware of the sun as a conscious being. Nice. What sort of Personality did it show you? I didn't get any sense of a *personal* consciousness, i.e., like that of a person. Action for the sun is basically nuclear processes on a gigantic scale and the consequent release of huge amounts of energy; that's what the sun does, ceaselessly, and whatever sentience it has is fully occupied keeping that massive furnace going. So it isn't a very *interesting* type of consciousness, with human-type quirks and idiosyncrasies, just overwhelmingly awesome to sense that all that incredibly fierce power is animate. And if the sun is conscious, it means the rest of the stars--some of which make the sun look like a kid's night light by comparison--and black holes and quasars and God knows what other monstrously powerful entities inhabit the universe are conscious beings as well. And then you start to wonder what *galaxies* are... And Universes... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I didn't get any sense of a *personal* consciousness, i.e., like that of a person. Action for the sun is basically nuclear processes on a gigantic scale and the consequent release of huge amounts of energy; that's what the sun does, ceaselessly, and whatever sentience it has is fully occupied keeping that massive furnace going. Here's a photo of a small portion of the sun's surface, doing what it does: http://solarviews.com/browse/sun/trace10.jpg Here's another, with an image of the earth superimposed to give a sense of scale: http://solarviews.com/browse/sun/trace8.jpg The captions for these photos: Fountains of multimillion-degree, electrified gas in the atmosphere of the Sun have revealed the location where the solar atmosphere is heated to temperatures 300 times greater than the Sun's visible surface. *Multimillion-degree*. Marvelous. And beautiful. :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I don't have any particular affection for Schroedinger's cat. I'd be delighted if someone could show it was a fallacy. I'd be thrilled if celestial bodies could be shown to have consciousness. I had a revelatory experience once of becoming aware of the sun as a conscious being. Nice. What sort of Personality did it show you? :-) It lied all the time. :-) Too much white matter, not enough gray? :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip This goes to the Shrodinger cat thought experiment. ie. Is the cat in the box dead or alive if no-one else sees it. It is therefore in a neither dead nor alive state This thought experiment is nonsense because it assumes only hhigher order animals (people) are observers, but all animals (and beyond ) are observers, including the flees in the cats skin, and even the parasites in its blood, it's very own cells as single celled organisms, and its very own DNA. Someone is always watching.everywhere. Even a planet is observing (experiencing) as is the sun. The fallacy of Shrodinger's cat is as yet not known to the scientific understanding on Earth Well, boy, you're right in line for a Nobel Prize, then, as soon as you make it known. Now you are simply being dumb. When you can't handle it you decide to throw sarcastic insults. I know you can do better than that . Hey, the reason the fallacy, as you describe it, isn't yet known to scientific understanding is because nobody's come up with any *evidence* for it. I don't have any particular affection for Schroedinger's cat. I'd be delighted if someone could show it was a fallacy. I'd be thrilled if celestial bodies could be shown to have consciousness. I had a revelatory experience once of becoming aware of the sun as a conscious being. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip This goes to the Shrodinger cat thought experiment. ie. Is the cat in the box dead or alive if no-one else sees it. It is therefore in a neither dead nor alive state This thought experiment is nonsense because it assumes only hhigher order animals (people) are observers, but all animals (and beyond ) are observers, including the flees in the cats skin, and even the parasites in its blood, it's very own cells as single celled organisms, and its very own DNA. Someone is always watching.everywhere. Even a planet is observing (experiencing) as is the sun. The fallacy of Shrodinger's cat is as yet not known to the scientific understanding on Earth Well, boy, you're right in line for a Nobel Prize, then, as soon as you make it known. Now you are simply being dumb. When you can't handle it you decide to throw sarcastic insults. I know you can do better than that . Hey, the reason the fallacy, as you describe it, isn't yet known to scientific understanding is because nobody's come up with any *evidence* for it. I don't have any particular affection for Schroedinger's cat. I'd be delighted if someone could show it was a fallacy. I'd be thrilled if celestial bodies could be shown to have consciousness. I had a revelatory experience once of becoming aware of the sun as a conscious being.. You are really not thinking this through. You are simply reacting to your tribal urges. Good luck with that. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip This goes to the Shrodinger cat thought experiment. ie. Is the cat in the box dead or alive if no-one else sees it. It is therefore in a neither dead nor alive state This thought experiment is nonsense because it assumes only hhigher order animals (people) are observers, but all animals (and beyond ) are observers, including the flees in the cats skin, and even the parasites in its blood, it's very own cells as single celled organisms, and its very own DNA. Someone is always watching.everywhere. Even a planet is observing (experiencing) as is the sun. The fallacy of Shrodinger's cat is as yet not known to the scientific understanding on Earth Well, boy, you're right in line for a Nobel Prize, then, as soon as you make it known. Now you are simply being dumb. When you can't handle it you decide to throw sarcastic insults. I know you can do better than that . Hey, the reason the fallacy, as you describe it, isn't yet known to scientific understanding is because nobody's come up with any *evidence* for it. I don't have any particular affection for Schroedinger's cat. I'd be delighted if someone could show it was a fallacy. I'd be thrilled if celestial bodies could be shown to have consciousness. I had a revelatory experience once of becoming aware of the sun as a conscious being.. You are really not thinking this through. You are simply reacting to your tribal urges. Good luck with that. Unfortunately, you won't be able to show me where I've gone so wrong in my thinking. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip This goes to the Shrodinger cat thought experiment. ie. Is the cat in the box dead or alive if no-one else sees it. It is therefore in a neither dead nor alive state This thought experiment is nonsense because it assumes only hhigher order animals (people) are observers, but all animals (and beyond ) are observers, including the flees in the cats skin, and even the parasites in its blood, it's very own cells as single celled organisms, and its very own DNA. Someone is always watching.everywhere. Even a planet is observing (experiencing) as is the sun. The fallacy of Shrodinger's cat is as yet not known to the scientific understanding on Earth Well, boy, you're right in line for a Nobel Prize, then, as soon as you make it known. Now you are simply being dumb. When you can't handle it you decide to throw sarcastic insults. I know you can do better than that . Hey, the reason the fallacy, as you describe it, isn't yet known to scientific understanding is because nobody's come up with any *evidence* for it. I don't have any particular affection for Schroedinger's cat. I'd be delighted if someone could show it was a fallacy. I'd be thrilled if celestial bodies could be shown to have consciousness. I had a revelatory experience once of becoming aware of the sun as a conscious being.. You are really not thinking this through. You are simply reacting to your tribal urges. Good luck with that. Unfortunately, you won't be able to show me where I've gone so wrong in my thinking. By what logic can you say the sun is not a conscious being? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I don't have any particular affection for Schroedinger's cat. I'd be delighted if someone could show it was a fallacy. I'd be thrilled if celestial bodies could be shown to have consciousness. I had a revelatory experience once of becoming aware of the sun as a conscious being.. You are really not thinking this through. You are simply reacting to your tribal urges. Good luck with that. Unfortunately, you won't be able to show me where I've gone so wrong in my thinking. By what logic can you say the sun is not a conscious being? Where did I say it wasn't?? I said--see above--that I'd had the experience that it *was*, and that I would be thrilled to have scientific confirmation of that experience. How on *earth* do you turn that into my saying the sun is *not* a conscious being?? So far in this conversation, you've misunderstood virtually everything I've said. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: By what logic can you say the sun is not a conscious being? What! Because it doesn't have characteristics we usually associate with consciousness, for starters. Off, with all due respect, your thinking is kinda loose at the edges! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I don't have any particular affection for Schroedinger's cat. I'd be delighted if someone could show it was a fallacy. I'd be thrilled if celestial bodies could be shown to have consciousness. I had a revelatory experience once of becoming aware of the sun as a conscious being.. You are really not thinking this through. You are simply reacting to your tribal urges. Good luck with that. Unfortunately, you won't be able to show me where I've gone so wrong in my thinking. By what logic can you say the sun is not a conscious being? Where did I say it wasn't?? I said--see above--that I'd had the experience that it *was*, and that I would be thrilled to have scientific confirmation of that experience. How on *earth* do you turn that into my saying the sun is *not* a conscious being?? Well, you said that it is not so because it has not been confirmed by your scientists. (even though you know better). In addition, logic will prove that the sun is as conscious as anything else. In addition, I showed you Shrodingers cat fallacy and yet you are unable to see it and merely use sarcasm to avoid it. So far in this conversation, you've misunderstood virtually everything I've said. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: By what logic can you say the sun is not a conscious being? What! Because it doesn't have characteristics we usually associate with consciousness, for starters. Off, with all due respect, your thinking is kinda loose at the edges! Deal with the other posts I replied to you Peter. This post had an intended effect about which you are not aware and should not concern yourself. Not all things that are said are to be understood. They are intended to create an effect. ...which this one successfully did, just as I thought it would. Sound pretentious?.YEA BABY ! !but the method works. Now go back and answer my responses to your earlier posts and don't get yourself so excited. It is not good for you. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip By what logic can you say the sun is not a conscious being? Where did I say it wasn't?? I said--see above--that I'd had the experience that it *was*, and that I would be thrilled to have scientific confirmation of that experience. How on *earth* do you turn that into my saying the sun is *not* a conscious being?? Well, you said that it is not so because it has not been confirmed by your scientists. (even though you know better). I said NO SUCH THING. Get a *grip*, man! In addition, logic will prove that the sun is as conscious as anything else. In addition, I showed you Shrodingers cat fallacy and yet you are unable to see it and merely use sarcasm to avoid it. Look, obviously you're just going to continue to make stuff up no matter what I say, so I'm bowing out. Have a nice conversation with yourself. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I don't have any particular affection for Schroedinger's cat. I'd be delighted if someone could show it was a fallacy. I'd be thrilled if celestial bodies could be shown to have consciousness. I had a revelatory experience once of becoming aware of the sun as a conscious being. Nice. What sort of Personality did it show you? :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I don't have any particular affection for Schroedinger's cat. I'd be delighted if someone could show it was a fallacy. I'd be thrilled if celestial bodies could be shown to have consciousness. I had a revelatory experience once of becoming aware of the sun as a conscious being. Nice. What sort of Personality did it show you? I didn't get any sense of a *personal* consciousness, i.e., like that of a person. Action for the sun is basically nuclear processes on a gigantic scale and the consequent release of huge amounts of energy; that's what the sun does, ceaselessly, and whatever sentience it has is fully occupied keeping that massive furnace going. So it isn't a very *interesting* type of consciousness, with human-type quirks and idiosyncrasies, just overwhelmingly awesome to sense that all that incredibly fierce power is animate. And if the sun is conscious, it means the rest of the stars--some of which make the sun look like a kid's night light by comparison--and black holes and quasars and God knows what other monstrously powerful entities inhabit the universe are conscious beings as well. And then you start to wonder what *galaxies* are... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I didn't get any sense of a *personal* consciousness, i.e., like that of a person. Action for the sun is basically nuclear processes on a gigantic scale and the consequent release of huge amounts of energy; that's what the sun does, ceaselessly, and whatever sentience it has is fully occupied keeping that massive furnace going. Here's a photo of a small portion of the sun's surface, doing what it does: http://solarviews.com/browse/sun/trace10.jpg Here's another, with an image of the earth superimposed to give a sense of scale: http://solarviews.com/browse/sun/trace8.jpg The captions for these photos: Fountains of multimillion-degree, electrified gas in the atmosphere of the Sun have revealed the location where the solar atmosphere is heated to temperatures 300 times greater than the Sun's visible surface. *Multimillion-degree*. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What would happen if Hagelin seriously weighed in on the current, highly charged, debate on intelligent design? How would he argue, left, right, or center? Define the terms first. Evolution is the inspiration for a major form of artificial intelligence theory, afterall... I didn't mention evolution because evolution means a process which has a goal. ie. Intelligent. The goal being the survival of the fittest according to Darwinists. I'm not sure Darwinists would agree that survival of the fittest could be characterized as a goal. That the fittest survive is just what happens-- how could it not? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What would happen if Hagelin seriously weighed in on the current, highly charged, debate on intelligent design? How would he argue, left, right, or center? Define the terms first. Evolution is the inspiration for a major form of artificial intelligence theory, afterall... I didn't mention evolution because evolution means a process which has a goal. ie. Intelligent. The goal being the survival of the fittest according to Darwinists. OffWorld The goal is inherent in the system. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What would happen if Hagelin seriously weighed in on the current, highly charged, debate on intelligent design? How would he argue, left, right, or center? Define the terms first. Evolution is the inspiration for a major form of artificial intelligence theory, afterall... I didn't mention evolution because evolution means a process which has a goal. ie. Intelligent. The goal being the survival of the fittest according to Darwinists. The goal is inherent in the system. The goal is projected onto a system that doesn't need one. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What would happen if Hagelin seriously weighed in on the current, highly charged, debate on intelligent design? How would he argue, left, right, or center? Define the terms first. Evolution is the inspiration for a major form of artificial intelligence theory, afterall... I didn't mention evolution because evolution means a process which has a goal. ie. Intelligent. The goal being the survival of the fittest according to Darwinists. I'm not sure Darwinists would agree that survival of the fittest could be characterized as a goal. That the fittest survive is just what happens-- how could it not? Then it cannot be given the name 'evolution' as if it has some purpose. It would need to be called 'chaos'. All Darwinists believe that evolution is a process based on a need. ie. Intelligence. OffWorld Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What would happen if Hagelin seriously weighed in on the current, highly charged, debate on intelligent design? How would he argue, left, right, or center? Define the terms first. Evolution is the inspiration for a major form of artificial intelligence theory, afterall... I didn't mention evolution because evolution means a process which has a goal. ie. Intelligent. The goal being the survival of the fittest according to Darwinists. OffWorld The goal is inherent in the system.. 'System' means 'intelligence'. Otherwise it needs to be called 'chaos' and not 'evolution'. It has order. It is intelligent. I didn't mention evolution because I think it implies order, and therefore cannot be used in an argument about the chaotic and undirected nature of the cosmos. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What would happen if Hagelin seriously weighed in on the current, highly charged, debate on intelligent design? How would he argue, left, right, or center? Define the terms first. Evolution is the inspiration for a major form of artificial intelligence theory, afterall... I didn't mention evolution because evolution means a process which has a goal. ie. Intelligent. The goal being the survival of the fittest according to Darwinists. The goal is inherent in the system. The goal is projected onto a system that doesn't need one.. 'System' means 'intelligence'. Otherwise it needs to be called 'chaos' and not 'evolution'. It has order. It is intelligent. I didn't mention evolution because I think it implies order, and therefore cannot be used in an argument about the chaotic and undirected nature of the cosmos. OffWorld Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What would happen if Hagelin seriously weighed in on the current, highly charged, debate on intelligent design? How would he argue, left, right, or center? Define the terms first. Evolution is the inspiration for a major form of artificial intelligence theory, afterall... I didn't mention evolution because evolution means a process which has a goal. ie. Intelligent. The goal being the survival of the fittest according to Darwinists. I'm not sure Darwinists would agree that survival of the fittest could be characterized as a goal. That the fittest survive is just what happens-- how could it not? Then it cannot be given the name 'evolution' as if it has some purpose. It would need to be called 'chaos'. The word 'evolution' does NOT imply 'purpose.' The sentient beings of the universe, as far as I can tell, are all evolving. But personally I don't think that there is anywhere in particular that they are evolving *to*. I have no problem with everything always evolving, but in a chaotic (meaning Inter- dependent Origination) way. No goal, no purpose, just beings interacting and moving in the karmic direction spawned by that interation. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The goal is inherent in the system.. 'System' means 'intelligence'. Is the operating system on your computer intelligent? (You don't have to answer that if you're using WinXP.) Seriously, I work in AI. A system *can* be intelligent, but that doesn't mean either that it has a preprogrammed purpose or that it's sentient. Neural nets learn, and can change their purpose based on what they learn. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What would happen if Hagelin seriously weighed in on the current, highly charged, debate on intelligent design? How would he argue, left, right, or center? Define the terms first. Evolution is the inspiration for a major form of artificial intelligence theory, afterall... I didn't mention evolution because evolution means a process which has a goal. ie. Intelligent. The goal being the survival of the fittest according to Darwinists. I'm not sure Darwinists would agree that survival of the fittest could be characterized as a goal. That the fittest survive is just what happens-- how could it not? Then it cannot be given the name 'evolution' as if it has some purpose. It would need to be called 'chaos'. The word 'evolution' does NOT imply 'purpose.' The sentient beings of the universe, as far as I can tell, are all evolving. But personally I don't think that there is anywhere in particular that they are evolving *to*. I have no problem with everything always evolving, but in a chaotic (meaning Inter- dependent Origination) way. No goal, no purpose, just beings interacting and moving in the karmic direction spawned by that interation. Then the word 'sentient' is out of place and is an illusion that you have placed upon the dead, inert, dumb universe. You are avoiding the issue which is that evolution has order. You said it yourself, it has 'direction' This implies order. Order implies intelligence. All the words you are using imply intelligence. If you say it has no order then you must say it is chaotic. There is no way that you can claim it is chaotic in an intelligent way, which is what you just claimed. Or maybe you mean't is is intelligent in a chaotic way. This doesn't fly either. If it is chaotic it has no business being called the (now) lofty name of the 'God' called 'Evolution'. OffWorld Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The goal is inherent in the system.. 'System' means 'intelligence'. Is the operating system on your computer intelligent? (You don't have to answer that if you're using WinXP.) Seriously, I work in AI. A system *can* be intelligent, but that doesn't mean either that it has a preprogrammed purpose or that it's sentient. Neural nets learn, and can change their purpose based on what they learn. You just said it: A system implies intelligence, otherwise it is not a system. Thankyou. I see, you have two possiblities. Pre-programmed, or, learning systems. (how do you spell the word touchee from the French...you are in a intellectual bind at this point) OffWorld Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What would happen if Hagelin seriously weighed in on the current, highly charged, debate on intelligent design? How would he argue, left, right, or center? Define the terms first. Evolution is the inspiration for a major form of artificial intelligence theory, afterall... I didn't mention evolution because evolution means a process which has a goal. ie. Intelligent. The goal being the survival of the fittest according to Darwinists. I'm not sure Darwinists would agree that survival of the fittest could be characterized as a goal. That the fittest survive is just what happens-- how could it not? Then it cannot be given the name 'evolution' as if it has some purpose. Evolution doesn't necessarily imply purpose, just change over time. It would need to be called 'chaos'. All Darwinists believe that evolution is a process based on a need. ie. Intelligence. No, really. In fact, the objection some religious people have to Darwinian theory is that it removes the *need* for a purpose--doesn't exclude it, but makes it unnecessary. The whole shebang could have arisen on its own, without any guiding intelligence. Whether there *was* a guiding intelligence is a religious or philosophical question, not a scientific one. Science can't say one way or the other. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The goal is inherent in the system.. 'System' means 'intelligence'. Aieee, no. It can be used that way, but it can also be used without any implication of intelligence. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
Is the operating system on your computer intelligent? (You don't have to answer that if you're using WinXP.) Seriously, I work in AI. A system *can* be intelligent, but that doesn't mean either that it has a preprogrammed purpose or that it's sentient. Neural nets learn, and can change their purpose based on what they learn. Unlike many men. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The word 'evolution' does NOT imply 'purpose.' The sentient beings of the universe, as far as I can tell, are all evolving. But personally I don't think that there is anywhere in particular that they are evolving *to*. I have no problem with everything always evolving, but in a chaotic (meaning Inter- dependent Origination) way. No goal, no purpose, just beings interacting and moving in the karmic direction spawned by that interation. Then the word 'sentient' is out of place and is an illusion that you have placed upon the dead, inert, dumb universe. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. I'm presenting the POV that the universe is NOT sentient, in the sense of a self-aware universe with its own sense of identity, i.e., God. I can conceive of the universe being the sum self awareness of all of the sentient beings that dwell within it, but I'm Buddhist enough to not really believe it has a sentience of its own. You are avoiding the issue which is that evolution has order. That's *your* issue. I obviously found other ways to entertain myself with the same discussion. I have no problem with the universe having order. I just don't associate the word 'purpose' with the word 'order.' You said it yourself, it has 'direction' This implies order. It implies nothing more than the collective karma of all of the sentient beings in the universe. Their actions determine the direction; the direction is not pre-set or directed by an external entity. (All IMO, of course.) Order implies intelligence. It really doesn't. All the words you are using imply intelligence. To YOU. Because of your point of view, and how you tend to see things, your predilection. Not to me. If you say it has no order then you must say it is chaotic. It is chaotic. Within an ordered context called karma. Simple cause and effect. When it comes to this stuff, I'm a very Occam's Razor kinda thinker. I am comfortable with the concept of a universe that has NO sentient intelligence and NO preplanned purpose behind it. Just an operating system called karma. It was never created and it will never end. I'm not trying to rain on your parade or anything; this is just what I believe. I *know* that it's a belief, and a model of the universe, and thus almost by definition wrong, but it's the one I've come up with, for myself. I'm not trying to sell it to you. There is no way that you can claim it is chaotic in an intelligent way, which is what you just claimed. I work with AI nerds. A couple of them are SO nerdy that they spend their days off writing neural networks that are unpredictable. Intelligent chaos. Or maybe you mean't is is intelligent in a chaotic way. Exactly. You're gettin' it. This doesn't fly either. Does it at least bounce on its butt? I hear that's the first stage of real flying. If it is chaotic it has no business being called the (now) lofty name of the 'God' called 'Evolution'. Did someone on your planet traumatize you in your youth by subjecting you to long conversations about God and evolution and chaos and order? You seem awfully *involved* in this discussion. I'm not trying to convince you of anything and I'm not trying to sell you anything. I just said that this is what I believe. I don't call it truth or anything, just what I believe. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is the operating system on your computer intelligent? (You don't have to answer that if you're using WinXP.) Seriously, I work in AI. A system *can* be intelligent, but that doesn't mean either that it has a preprogrammed purpose or that it's sentient. Neural nets learn, and can change their purpose based on what they learn. Unlike many men. Amen. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The goal is inherent in the system.. 'System' means 'intelligence'. Is the operating system on your computer intelligent? (You don't have to answer that if you're using WinXP.) Seriously, I work in AI. A system *can* be intelligent, but that doesn't mean either that it has a preprogrammed purpose or that it's sentient. Neural nets learn, and can change their purpose based on what they learn. You just said it: A system implies intelligence, otherwise it is not a system. Thankyou. I see, you have two possiblities. Pre-programmed, or, learning systems. (how do you spell the word touchee from the French...you are in a intellectual bind at this point) Is an 'intellectual bind' anything like that kinky thing we were talking about earlier, the self gettin' into some serious BD stuff with the Self? You're not actually one of those people who feels compelled to prove the existence of God, are you? My evolution on my belief in God: Believed He existed. Believed I existed. Believed They existed. Believed She existed. Belief existed. No belief existed. Believe We exist. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What would happen if Hagelin seriously weighed in on the current, highly charged, debate on intelligent design? How would he argue, left, right, or center? Define the terms first. Evolution is the inspiration for a major form of artificial intelligence theory, afterall... I didn't mention evolution because evolution means a process which has a goal. ie. Intelligent. The goal being the survival of the fittest according to Darwinists. I'm not sure Darwinists would agree that survival of the fittest could be characterized as a goal. That the fittest survive is just what happens-- how could it not? Then it cannot be given the name 'evolution' as if it has some purpose. Evolution doesn't necessarily imply purpose, just change over time. It would need to be called 'chaos'. All Darwinists believe that evolution is a process based on a need. ie. Intelligence. No, really. In fact, the objection some religious people have to Darwinian theory is that it removes the *need* for a purpose--doesn't exclude it, but makes it unnecessary. The whole shebang could have arisen on its own, without any guiding intelligence. Whether there *was* a guiding intelligence is a religious or philosophical question, not a scientific one. Science can't say one way or the other. Then you are unaware that scientists are most definatlely saying one way. They are most definatley saying that there is no designer. YOu are now talking about first causes, which I did not bring up, you did. I said there is a wholeness that is more than the sum of it's parts and which others here refer to a 'system'. This implies order, and direction. A system MEANS intelligence. Evolution is a system that exhibits intelligence, wether it comes out if unintelligence or not is not the issue. I thought you were arguing that evolution does not exhibit intelligence (ie. a system with order, direction) OffWorld Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The goal is inherent in the system.. 'System' means 'intelligence'. Aieee, no. It can be used that way, but it can also be used without any implication of intelligence.. Aieee, no it absulutely cannot. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The goal is inherent in the system.. 'System' means 'intelligence'. Aieee, no. It can be used that way, but it can also be used without any implication of intelligence.. Aieee, no it absulutely cannot. Getting a beer from the fridge and sitting back to enjoy this one. The clash of the You can't say that titans. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The word 'evolution' does NOT imply 'purpose.' The sentient beings of the universe, as far as I can tell, are all evolving. But personally I don't think that there is anywhere in particular that they are evolving *to*. I have no problem with everything always evolving, but in a chaotic (meaning Inter- dependent Origination) way. No goal, no purpose, just beings interacting and moving in the karmic direction spawned by that interation. Then the word 'sentient' is out of place and is an illusion that you have placed upon the dead, inert, dumb universe. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. I'm presenting the POV that the universe is NOT sentient, in the sense of a self-aware universe with its own sense of identity, i.e., God. In my opinion you joined to completely unrelated ideas together here: intelligence and 'God'. This is the irrational leap that all the anti-intelligent design scientists make. Intelligent universe does not imply the common concept of a 'God' and I have never stated there was a God. You made that leap on your own. I can conceive of the universe being the sum self awareness of all of the sentient beings that dwell within it, but I'm Buddhist enough to not really believe it has a sentience of its own. You are avoiding the issue which is that evolution has order. That's *your* issue. I obviously found other ways to entertain myself with the same discussion. I have no problem with the universe having order. I just don't associate the word 'purpose' with the word 'order.' Yes you do. Order has purpose. Whatever its purpose is, is irrelevent, but it has purpose imposed upon by the nature of the system that it is expressing. Evolotion absolutlely implies purpose. Its purpose is evolotion. Now define evolution, without calling it chaos. It has a direction. OffWorld Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The goal is inherent in the system.. 'System' means 'intelligence'. Is the operating system on your computer intelligent? (You don't have to answer that if you're using WinXP.) Seriously, I work in AI. A system *can* be intelligent, but that doesn't mean either that it has a preprogrammed purpose or that it's sentient. Neural nets learn, and can change their purpose based on what they learn. You just said it: A system implies intelligence, otherwise it is not a system. Thankyou. I see, you have two possiblities. Pre-programmed, or, learning systems. (how do you spell the word touchee from the French...you are in a intellectual bind at this point) Is an 'intellectual bind' anything like that kinky thing we were talking about earlier, the self gettin' into some serious BD stuff with the Self? You're not actually one of those people who feels compelled to prove the existence of God, are you? Why do you have to bring your religious beliefs about God into this? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The word 'evolution' does NOT imply 'purpose.' The sentient beings of the universe, as far as I can tell, are all evolving. But personally I don't think that there is anywhere in particular that they are evolving *to*. I have no problem with everything always evolving, but in a chaotic (meaning Inter- dependent Origination) way. No goal, no purpose, just beings interacting and moving in the karmic direction spawned by that interation. Then the word 'sentient' is out of place and is an illusion that you have placed upon the dead, inert, dumb universe. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. I'm presenting the POV that the universe is NOT sentient, in the sense of a self-aware universe with its own sense of identity, i.e., God. In my opinion you joined to completely unrelated ideas together here: intelligence and 'God'. This is the irrational leap that all the anti-intelligent design scientists make. Intelligent universe does not imply the common concept of a 'God' and I have never stated there was a God. You made that leap on your own. I can conceive of the universe being the sum self awareness of all of the sentient beings that dwell within it, but I'm Buddhist enough to not really believe it has a sentience of its own. You are avoiding the issue which is that evolution has order. That's *your* issue. I obviously found other ways to entertain myself with the same discussion. I have no problem with the universe having order. I just don't associate the word 'purpose' with the word 'order.' Yes you do. Order has purpose. Whatever its purpose is, is irrelevent, but it has purpose imposed upon by the nature of the system that it is expressing. Evolotion absolutlely implies purpose. Its purpose is evolotion. Now define evolution, without calling it chaos. It has a direction. Whatever floats your boat. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
On 9/29/05 5:01 PM, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In my opinion you joined to completely unrelated ideas together here: intelligence and 'God'. This is the irrational leap that all the anti-intelligent design scientists make. Intelligent universe does not imply the common concept of a 'God' and I have never stated there was a God. You made that leap on your own. The idea is really of a *creator* god, not merely a god. In general gods are dangerous for spiritual practitioners and for civilized societies, as most (e.g. IHVH and Allah) are not enlightened and still possessed with afflictive emotions. This only reinforces the need for absolute separation of church/mosque and state--however the collective recognition of codes which correspond to a transcendental morality may be worth looking into. An interesting POV: Tony: The word that never pops into these discussions is the term God, which is central in virtually every other religion. Lama Ole Nydahl: We don't use it. It creates an unnecessary duality which one would have to dismantle later. We see gods as conditioned beings, who are not enlightened and though Buddhism knows of many gods, we prefer to keep a safe distance. We wish them everything good, of course, but do not get involved unless they might come to learn. To understand why, one needs only to examine their words. Gods are pompous, humorless, and some, like Allah, are clearly unfit for civilized societies. Most have character problems. Some are jealous; some are vengeful, none have found peace in their own essence. They all have visible egos and frequently display irrational behavior. They want beings to do this, and not to do that. They're frequently very difficult customers and if one wouldn't want bearers of such qualities as our neighbors, it would be unwise to take them as gods. I know that many people don't like to be confronted with such views and given the mental levels of their followers and the political situations at their times, the gods should also be given the benefits of any doubt. There is no way to ignore their statements in their ancient but still authorized texts; however, the way they still motivate the behavior of their followers today brings so much suffering. As any reader of intelligent newspapers will know, they suppress the greater part of the world's women and regularly erupt into strange and harmful actions even when kept under constant surveillance. Mind's full development, on the other hand, its clear light and radiant awareness, its consciousness endowed with every freedom to feel, question and do - this is perfect. Rest in that and avoid the personal, difficult, and unclear. Go straight to the radiant, compassionate joy which is always satisfactory. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
Great stuff. I particularly liked: They're frequently very difficult customers and if one wouldn't want bearers of such qualities as our neighbors, it would be unwise to take them as gods. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What would happen if Hagelin seriously weighed in on the current, highly charged, debate on intelligent design? How would he argue, left, right, or center? Define the terms first. Evolution is the inspiration for a major form of artificial intelligence theory, afterall... I didn't mention evolution because evolution means a process which has a goal. ie. Intelligent. The goal being the survival of the fittest according to Darwinists. I'm not sure Darwinists would agree that survival of the fittest could be characterized as a goal. That the fittest survive is just what happens-- how could it not? Then it cannot be given the name 'evolution' as if it has some purpose. Evolution doesn't necessarily imply purpose, just change over time. It would need to be called 'chaos'. All Darwinists believe that evolution is a process based on a need. ie. Intelligence. No, really. In fact, the objection some religious people have to Darwinian theory is that it removes the *need* for a purpose--doesn't exclude it, but makes it unnecessary. The whole shebang could have arisen on its own, without any guiding intelligence. Whether there *was* a guiding intelligence is a religious or philosophical question, not a scientific one. Science can't say one way or the other. Then you are unaware that scientists are most definatlely saying one way. They are most definatley saying that there is no designer. Well, no, they aren't. They're saying there's no *evidence* for a designer. YOu are now talking about first causes, which I did not bring up, you did. Well, no, you said evolution was based on a *need*. I said there is a wholeness that is more than the sum of it's parts and which others here refer to a 'system'. This implies order, and direction. A system MEANS intelligence. Well, no, system does not mean intelligence. Evolution is a system that exhibits intelligence, wether it comes out if unintelligence or not is not the issue. I thought you were arguing that evolution does not exhibit intelligence (ie. a system with order, direction) Right, evolution does not exhibit intelligence. That's exactly what I was saying. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The goal is inherent in the system.. 'System' means 'intelligence'. Aieee, no. It can be used that way, but it can also be used without any implication of intelligence.. Aieee, no it absulutely cannot. Getting a beer from the fridge and sitting back to enjoy this one. The clash of the You can't say that titans. Oops, you're still foggy, Barry. Have another look. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gods are pompous, humorless, and some, like Allah, are clearly unfit for civilized societies. Mmm, this is a nice one, Vaj. Do you endorse this assertion? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Great stuff. I particularly liked: They're frequently very difficult customers and if one wouldn't want bearers of such qualities as our neighbors, it would be unwise to take them as gods. And he's a Dane. http://www.lama-ole-nydahl.org/ http://www.diamondway.org/usa/1ole.php http://www.spiritualteachers.org/lama_ole_nydahl.htm Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What would happen if Hagelin seriously weighed in on the current, highly charged, debate on intelligent design? How would he argue, left, right, or center? Define the terms first. Evolution is the inspiration for a major form of artificial intelligence theory, afterall... I didn't mention evolution because evolution means a process which has a goal. ie. Intelligent. The goal being the survival of the fittest according to Darwinists. I'm not sure Darwinists would agree that survival of the fittest could be characterized as a goal. That the fittest survive is just what happens-- how could it not? Then it cannot be given the name 'evolution' as if it has some purpose. Evolution doesn't necessarily imply purpose, just change over time. It would need to be called 'chaos'. All Darwinists believe that evolution is a process based on a need. ie. Intelligence. No, really. In fact, the objection some religious people have to Darwinian theory is that it removes the *need* for a purpose--doesn't exclude it, but makes it unnecessary. The whole shebang could have arisen on its own, without any guiding intelligence. Whether there *was* a guiding intelligence is a religious or philosophical question, not a scientific one. Science can't say one way or the other. Then you are unaware that scientists are most definatlely saying one way. They are most definatley saying that there is no designer. Well, no, they aren't. They're saying there's no *evidence* for a designer. YOu are now talking about first causes, which I did not bring up, you did. Well, no, you said evolution was based on a *need*. I said there is a wholeness that is more than the sum of it's parts and which others here refer to a 'system'. This implies order, and direction. A system MEANS intelligence. Well, no, system does not mean intelligence. Evolution is a system that exhibits intelligence, wether it comes out if unintelligence or not is not the issue. I thought you were arguing that evolution does not exhibit intelligence (ie. a system with order, direction) Right, evolution does not exhibit intelligence. That's exactly what I was saying.. Evolution exhibits order, direction. Order and direction are intelligence. This is what a system is. It is sytematic. If it is not systematic, then it is not a system, but chaos. If it is a system then it is systematic, which is what intelligence is. Evolution is systematic. Evolution exhibuts order. There is no intelligence that exists that is not built out of orderly functioning, and consequently , direction. Order and direction are what intelligence means. OffWorld Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Great stuff. I particularly liked: They're frequently very difficult customers and if one wouldn't want bearers of such qualities as our neighbors, it would be unwise to take them as gods. And he's a Dane. http://www.lama-ole-nydahl.org/ http://www.diamondway.org/usa/1ole.php http://www.spiritualteachers.org/lama_ole_nydahl.htm I knew of him, but this is the first thing I've ever read of him. Funny stuff. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
On 9/29/05 5:28 PM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gods are pompous, humorless, and some, like Allah, are clearly unfit for civilized societies. Mmm, this is a nice one, Vaj. Do you endorse this assertion? No comment. The answers are out there, find them. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
On 9/29/05 5:38 PM, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Great stuff. I particularly liked: They're frequently very difficult customers and if one wouldn't want bearers of such qualities as our neighbors, it would be unwise to take them as gods. And he's a Dane. http://www.lama-ole-nydahl.org/ http://www.diamondway.org/usa/1ole.php http://www.spiritualteachers.org/lama_ole_nydahl.htm I knew of him, but this is the first thing I've ever read of him. Funny stuff. You should read his autobiography which is hilarious at points. Who would ever have guessed that someone who was smuggling hashish out of Nepal inside Buddha heads would become the foremost lama in the western world for transmitting the phowa, the transference. This dude's opened more crown chakras than anyone I know or've heard of Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
Hari Om, If Order has purpose then, Chaos has no purpose.?? Hydrogen molecules inside the Sun are in a chaotic state because of very high temperature. But they do some work. The issue is whether it is impersonal intelligent design or Personal intelligent design. Maharishi belongs to the Vedanta school, Adi-Sankara line. It talks of impersonal Brahman. Look at Maharishi's commentary on Gita. He uses the word Evolution numerous times. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/4/part2.html Mutations in genes take place only due to Entropy, which exists only because of disorder. If there is perfect order mutations in genes cannot take place. Evolution cannot take place on the Absolute Brahman because there is perfection and order there. it can take place only in a duality based material universe Jason OriginalMessage- From: "off_world_beings" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:01:30 - Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?) Yes you do.Order has purpose. Whatever its purpose is, is irrelevent, but it has purpose imposed upon by the nature of the system that it is expressing. Evolotion absolutlely implies purpose. Its purpose is evolotion. Now define evolution, without calling it chaos. It has a direction. OffWorld From: "bbrigante" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 19:47:29 - Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (Was: What would happen if Hagelin...) To me, intelligent design theory is completely inadequate and unexplanatory and not as comprehensive as what MMY said. I think it's necessary to distinguish between reacting to behavior, which is what God does, and controlling everything, which intelligent design theorists seem to embrace. Human beings have obvious freedom of choice, and they suffer or enjoy based on the feedback from those choices. But animals and plants, although they do not have the consciousness to override their genetically-determined behaviors, do engage in maladaptive behaviors which result in feedback that eventually eliminates them. So natural selection, whether it is seen as decisions by a God or as decisions by impersonal natural laws, is a fact that is not acknowledged by intelligent design theorists because of their limited intelligence and knowledge -- MMY is not saying what intelligent design theorists are saying. Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/29/05 5:38 PM, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Great stuff. I particularly liked: They're frequently very difficult customers and if one wouldn't want bearers of such qualities as our neighbors, it would be unwise to take them as gods. And he's a Dane. http://www.lama-ole-nydahl.org/ http://www.diamondway.org/usa/1ole.php http://www.spiritualteachers.org/lama_ole_nydahl.htm I knew of him, but this is the first thing I've ever read of him. Funny stuff. You should read his autobiography which is hilarious at points. Who would ever have guessed that someone who was smuggling hashish out of Nepal inside Buddha heads would become the foremost lama in the western world for transmitting the phowa, the transference. This dude's opened more crown chakras than anyone I know or've heard of Not surprised- Looks like a crown chakra opener. Very focused there. Or did he do it with the hashish? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/29/05 5:28 PM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gods are pompous, humorless, and some, like Allah, are clearly unfit for civilized societies. Mmm, this is a nice one, Vaj. Do you endorse this assertion? No comment. The answers are out there, find them. Not the answer as to whether you endorse this assertion. Only you can tell us that. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason Spock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hari Om, If Order has purpose then, Chaos has no purpose.?? Hydrogen molecules inside the Sun are in a chaotic state because of very high temperature. But they do some work. The issue is whether it is impersonal intelligent design or Personal intelligent design. Maharishi belongs to the Vedanta school, Adi-Sankara line. It talks of impersonal Brahman. Look at Maharishi's commentary on Gita. He uses the word Evolution numerous times. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/4/part2.html Mutations in genes take place only due to Entropy, which exists only because of disorder. If there is perfect order mutations in genes cannot take place. Evolution cannot take place on the Absolute Brahman because there is perfection and order there. it can take place only in a duality based material universe So order (or purpose?) is an aspect of chaos, and what we call 'chaos' in these examples above (which are really only sub-sets of the whole) is not chaos, but a meanigful part of the greater system and its systematic nature. ie. intelligent. We just gave it a name...'chaos'. OffWorld Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
On 9/29/05 6:16 PM, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/29/05 5:38 PM, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Great stuff. I particularly liked: They're frequently very difficult customers and if one wouldn't want bearers of such qualities as our neighbors, it would be unwise to take them as gods. And he's a Dane. http://www.lama-ole-nydahl.org/ http://www.diamondway.org/usa/1ole.php http://www.spiritualteachers.org/lama_ole_nydahl.htm I knew of him, but this is the first thing I've ever read of him. Funny stuff. You should read his autobiography which is hilarious at points. Who would ever have guessed that someone who was smuggling hashish out of Nepal inside Buddha heads would become the foremost lama in the western world for transmitting the phowa, the transference. This dude's opened more crown chakras than anyone I know or've heard of Not surprised- Looks like a crown chakra opener. Very focused there. Or did he do it with the hashish? No that was long gone by then. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
Well you might want to reread my own statements at the top of the original post and the corresponding one on a.m.t then... On 9/29/05 6:17 PM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/29/05 5:28 PM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gods are pompous, humorless, and some, like Allah, are clearly unfit for civilized societies. Mmm, this is a nice one, Vaj. Do you endorse this assertion? No comment. The answers are out there, find them. Not the answer as to whether you endorse this assertion. Only you can tell us that. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The goal is inherent in the system.. 'System' means 'intelligence'. Aieee, no. It can be used that way, but it can also be used without any implication of intelligence. All systems have intelligence related to them in some way. However, is the intelligence imposing order during its analysis of the system, or did an intelligence impose order in the *design* of the system? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Off: Evolution exhibits order, direction. Order and direction are intelligence. I am not so sure. If you look at the US presidents, from the founding fathers to the present, it looks to me like Darwin got it exactly backwards. You are referring to Darwinian Devolution which is not taught in schools for fear of offending the chimp. http://www.bushorchimp.com/pics.html OffWorld Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/29/05 5:28 PM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gods are pompous, humorless, and some, like Allah, are clearly unfit for civilized societies. Mmm, this is a nice one, Vaj. Do you endorse this assertion? No comment. The answers are out there, find them. Last I heard, Scully and Mulder had them. The show was cancelled... What's on Public Access? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The goal is inherent in the system.. 'System' means 'intelligence'. Aieee, no. It can be used that way, but it can also be used without any implication of intelligence. All systems have intelligence related to them in some way. However, is the intelligence imposing order during its analysis of the system, or did an intelligence impose order in the *design* of the system? Good question. The universe is the only (theoretically ) closed system . Whatever arises from it must be an illusion about it, unless it is inherently embued with intelligence by its very own simplest nature as an self- interacting existence. I believe this is the Vedic view (and is what Maharishi describes) , which ID proponents and anti-ID proponents cannot grasp. OffWorld Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The goal is inherent in the system.. 'System' means 'intelligence'. Aieee, no. It can be used that way, but it can also be used without any implication of intelligence. All systems have intelligence related to them in some way. However, is the intelligence imposing order during its analysis of the system, or did an intelligence impose order in the *design* of the system? Good question. The universe is the only (theoretically ) closed system . Whatever arises from it must be an illusion about it, unless it is inherently embued with intelligence by its very own simplest nature as an self- interacting existence. I believe this is the Vedic view (and is what Maharishi describes) , which ID proponents and anti-ID proponents cannot grasp. FWIW, I think that too. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Off: Evolution exhibits order, direction. Order and direction are intelligence. I am not so sure. If you look at the US presidents, from the founding fathers to the present, it looks to me like Darwin got it exactly backwards. You are referring to Darwinian Devolution which is not taught in schools for fear of offending the chimp. http://www.bushorchimp.com/pics.html OffWorld Great Pics. I think it makes the case air tight. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Off: Evolution exhibits order, direction. Order and direction are intelligence. I am not so sure. If you look at the US presidents, from the founding fathers to the present, it looks to me like Darwin got it exactly backwards. Species that are maladaptive eventually disappear: So the message to the government is: if you don't know Transcendental Meditation, better know it today, otherwise tomorrow will not be for you. You will not be for tomorrow. MMY, 1Dec2004 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The goal is inherent in the system.. 'System' means 'intelligence'. Aieee, no. It can be used that way, but it can also be used without any implication of intelligence. All systems have intelligence related to them in some way. However, is the intelligence imposing order during its analysis of the system, or did an intelligence impose order in the *design* of the system? Gee, I wouldn't say order being imposed on a system during analysis by an intelligence means the system *itself* has intelligence. What about systems that have never been analyzed by an intelligence? What intelligence do they have related to them (if you exclude a designing intelligence)? System just means stuff that interacts in a more or less regular way. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The goal is inherent in the system.. 'System' means 'intelligence'. Aieee, no. It can be used that way, but it can also be used without any implication of intelligence. All systems have intelligence related to them in some way. However, is the intelligence imposing order during its analysis of the system, or did an intelligence impose order in the *design* of the system? Gee, I wouldn't say order being imposed on a system during analysis by an intelligence means the system *itself* has intelligence. What about systems that have never been analyzed by an intelligence? . Can you name one? System just means stuff that interacts in a more or less regular way. more or less regular way. What do you mean? Chaotic order, or orderly chaos? Neither will float your boat. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The goal is inherent in the system.. 'System' means 'intelligence'. Aieee, no. It can be used that way, but it can also be used without any implication of intelligence. All systems have intelligence related to them in some way. However, is the intelligence imposing order during its analysis of the system, or did an intelligence impose order in the *design* of the system? Good question. The universe is the only (theoretically ) closed system . Whatever arises from it must be an illusion about it, unless it is inherently embued with intelligence by its very own simplest nature as an self- interacting existence. I believe this is the Vedic view (and is what Maharishi describes) , which ID proponents and anti-ID proponents cannot grasp. FWIW, I think that too. Me too. I'm also a thoroughgoing evolutionist, and I'm rabidly against ID being taught in schools anywhere but in a philosophy class. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The goal is inherent in the system.. 'System' means 'intelligence'. Aieee, no. It can be used that way, but it can also be used without any implication of intelligence. All systems have intelligence related to them in some way. However, is the intelligence imposing order during its analysis of the system, or did an intelligence impose order in the *design* of the system? Gee, I wouldn't say order being imposed on a system during analysis by an intelligence means the system *itself* has intelligence. What about systems that have never been analyzed by an intelligence? . Can you name one? Hypothetical, obviously. Let's say a very complicated solar system in a distant galaxy that no sentient being has ever observed. System just means stuff that interacts in a more or less regular way. more or less regular way. What do you mean? Chaotic order, or orderly chaos? Neither will float your boat. Don't mean either. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The goal is inherent in the system.. 'System' means 'intelligence'. Aieee, no. It can be used that way, but it can also be used without any implication of intelligence. All systems have intelligence related to them in some way. However, is the intelligence imposing order during its analysis of the system, or did an intelligence impose order in the *design* of the system? Gee, I wouldn't say order being imposed on a system during analysis by an intelligence means the system *itself* has intelligence. What about systems that have never been analyzed by an intelligence? . Can you name one? Hypothetical, obviously. Let's say a very complicated solar system in a distant galaxy that no sentient being has ever observed. Sentient being is a judgement call. System just means stuff that interacts in a more or less regular way. more or less regular way. What do you mean? Chaotic order, or orderly chaos? Neither will float your boat. Don't mean either. Either, eether, niether, or neither? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/29/05 5:28 PM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gods are pompous, humorless, and some, like Allah, are clearly unfit for civilized societies. Mmm, this is a nice one, Vaj. Do you endorse this assertion? No comment. The answers are out there, find them. Last I heard, Scully and Mulder had them. Last I heard, the answers weren't so much out there, as in here Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/29/05 5:28 PM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gods are pompous, humorless, and some, like Allah, are clearly unfit for civilized societies. Mmm, this is a nice one, Vaj. Do you endorse this assertion? No comment. The answers are out there, find them. Last I heard, Scully and Mulder had them. Last I heard, the answers weren't so much out there, as in here WHOA ! Rory, now that is one of the coolest lines I have heard in ages ! Even Dolly Parton would look cool sayin' that in the 'hood ! Nice one no kidding. Ok Rick, it is time to start a new folder called 'Coolest lines' in the files section. This one by Rory is the measure of the rest. Very cool. I like it. OffWorld Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Last I heard, the answers weren't so much out there, as in here WHOA ! Rory, now that is one of the coolest lines I have heard in ages ! Even Dolly Parton would look cool sayin' that in the 'hood ! Nice one no kidding. Ok Rick, it is time to start a new folder called 'Coolest lines' in the files section. This one by Rory is the measure of the rest. Very cool. I like it. *lol* You are very kind, Offworld, but I am almost certain that I heard someone else come up with that line first :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Last I heard, the answers weren't so much out there, as in here WHOA ! Rory, now that is one of the coolest lines I have heard in ages ! Even Dolly Parton would look cool sayin' that in the 'hood ! Nice one no kidding. Ok Rick, it is time to start a new folder called 'Coolest lines' in the files section. This one by Rory is the measure of the rest. Very cool. I like it. *lol* You are very kind, Offworld, but I am almost certain that I heard someone else come up with that line first :-) Well there is nothing new under the Sun, and in my book you get kudos for that cool line. In a world of endless ego-strutting that line made my day ! OffWorld Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
