[FairfieldLife] Re: ET morality

2010-09-06 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote:

 This theme -- one species with its own view
 of what ethics entails meeting another with an
 entirely different, not only incompatible but
 *inconceivable* view -- has been dealt with
 often in classic science fiction. 
 
 Might I recommend, as a starting point, a story
 by Terry Carr in World's Best Science Fiction
 1969 called The Dance of the Changer and the
 Three. Brilliant. 

As it turns out, this classic story is online, 
and you can read it here (it's on two HTML pages,
so when you get to the bottom of the first you
need to click on the second):

http://lexal.net/scifi/scifiction/classics/classics_archive/carr/carr1.html

This should give you a taste of the magnitude
of the challenge we've been talking about, a 
great writer trying to imagine what is
essentially unimaginable, a truly alien
culture, with truly alien values. It was
nominated for the Hugo Award for Best Story
the year it came out. It is still talked about
in science fiction circles as one of the best
examples of such an attempt ever done.

The fascinating thing for me when I first read
it back in 1969 is that the story of the 
Changer and the Three is almost Zen in its
essence; it's a koan, which the human trying
to relate the story to other humans knows he
will never and *can* never figure out.

Growing up on Class-A imaginings of the possible
interactions between humans and extraterrestrials
like this is what often leaves me with little
patience when I hear New Age twifs talking about
the space brothers and our friends from the
Pleiaides. They have no fuckin' clue. 




[FairfieldLife] Re: ET morality

2010-09-06 Thread nablusoss1008


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote:

 Growing up on Class-A imaginings of the possible
 interactions between humans and extraterrestrials
 like this is what often leaves me with little
 patience when I hear New Age twifs talking about
 the space brothers and our friends from the
 Pleiaides. They have no fuckin' clue.

Be rest assured that the Turq is not clueless when it comes to our brothers in 
space. 




[FairfieldLife] Re: ET morality

2010-09-06 Thread Alex Stanley


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_re...@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
 
  Growing up on Class-A imaginings of the possible
  interactions between humans and extraterrestrials
  like this is what often leaves me with little
  patience when I hear New Age twifs talking about
  the space brothers and our friends from the
  Pleiaides. They have no fuckin' clue.
 
 Be rest assured that the Turq is not clueless when it comes to
 our brothers in space.

My recollection is that Charlie Lutes said it was ok to hitch a ride with the 
aliens in the saucer shaped space ships but not the cigar shaped space ships.



[FairfieldLife] Re: ET morality

2010-09-06 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley j_alexander_stan...@... 
wrote:

 My recollection is that Charlie Lutes said it was ok to hitch 
 a ride with the aliens in the saucer shaped space ships but 
 not the cigar shaped space ships.

Sounds to me more like a reflection of Charlie's
homophobia than any actual knowledge.  :-)






Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: ET morality

2010-09-06 Thread gullible fool















 
I was in the audience when Lutes came to the Boston area to give talks a couple 
of times back in 78 and 79. This was back when we were all eager to eat up 
anything anyone higher up in the movement had to say, whether MMY, Domash, 
Charlie Donahue, or Lutes, so we all bought everything Lutes had to say. 
Charlie Donahue was living in Cambridge at the time and a big part of the 
Cambridge TM center, and since he did not much care for Lutes, it was up to the 
satellite center in Wellesley to invite Lutes and host the talks. I remember 
hearing Lutes say Ifa you see a flying saucer, get on the round ones, don't 
get on the cigar-shaped ones...they're evil. (or maybe it was they're bad 
news). 
 
In the 1990s, when I was at my usual table in Annapurna, the conversation got 
around to the talk Lutes had just given in Iowa City. A friend who had been to 
the talk said Lutes denied ever saying that about the cigar-shaped ones. 
 


Under the influence of maya, Brahman appears as Ishvara, the personal God, who 
exists on the celestial level of life, in the subtlest field of creation. In a 
similar manner, under the influence of avidya, atman appears as jiva, or 
individual soul. 
 
- MMY

--- On Mon, 9/6/10, Alex Stanley j_alexander_stan...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: Alex Stanley j_alexander_stan...@yahoo.com
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: ET morality
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, September 6, 2010, 9:48 AM




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_re...@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
 
  Growing up on Class-A imaginings of the possible
  interactions between humans and extraterrestrials
  like this is what often leaves me with little
  patience when I hear New Age twifs talking about
  the space brothers and our friends from the
  Pleiaides. They have no fuckin' clue.
 
 Be rest assured that the Turq is not clueless when it comes to
 our brothers in space.

My recollection is that Charlie Lutes said it was ok to hitch a ride with the 
aliens in the saucer shaped space ships but not the cigar shaped space ships.





To subscribe, send a message to:
fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com

Or go to: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links






  

[FairfieldLife] Re: ET morality

2010-09-06 Thread Alex Stanley


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley j_alexander_stanley@ 
 wrote:
 
  My recollection is that Charlie Lutes said it was ok to hitch 
  a ride with the aliens in the saucer shaped space ships but 
  not the cigar shaped space ships.
 
 Sounds to me more like a reflection of Charlie's
 homophobia than any actual knowledge.  :-)

Oh yeah... he'd bring up his women reincarnated as men being light in the 
loafers shtick at almost every lecture. 



[FairfieldLife] Re: ET morality

2010-09-06 Thread Duveyoung
I paid my twenty bucks to see Charlie as he tottered to oblivion, and I 
reminded him that the last time I saw him he said they were about to discover 
Christ's spaceship hidden inside the great pyramid and I wondered why that 
hadn't happened yet.

He said:  I never said such a thing.

So even in the end, he was a fucking liar.

Edg

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, gullible fool ffl...@... wrote:

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 I was in the audience when Lutes came to the Boston area to give talks a 
 couple of times back in 78 and 79. This was back when we were all eager to 
 eat up anything anyone higher up in the movement had to say, whether MMY, 
 Domash, Charlie Donahue, or Lutes, so we all bought everything Lutes had to 
 say. Charlie Donahue was living in Cambridge at the time and a big part of 
 the Cambridge TM center, and since he did not much care for Lutes, it was up 
 to the satellite center in Wellesley to invite Lutes and host the talks. I 
 remember hearing Lutes say Ifa you see a flying saucer, get on the round 
 ones, don't get on the cigar-shaped ones...they're evil. (or maybe it was 
 they're bad news). 
  
 In the 1990s, when I was at my usual table in Annapurna, the conversation got 
 around to the talk Lutes had just given in Iowa City. A friend who had been 
 to the talk said Lutes denied ever saying that about the cigar-shaped ones. 
  
 
 
 Under the influence of maya, Brahman appears as Ishvara, the personal God, 
 who exists on the celestial level of life, in the subtlest field of creation. 
 In a similar manner, under the influence of avidya, atman appears as jiva, or 
 individual soul. 
  
 - MMY
 
 --- On Mon, 9/6/10, Alex Stanley j_alexander_stan...@... wrote:
 
 
 From: Alex Stanley j_alexander_stan...@...
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: ET morality
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Monday, September 6, 2010, 9:48 AM
 
 
 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote:
 
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
  
   Growing up on Class-A imaginings of the possible
   interactions between humans and extraterrestrials
   like this is what often leaves me with little
   patience when I hear New Age twifs talking about
   the space brothers and our friends from the
   Pleiaides. They have no fuckin' clue.
  
  Be rest assured that the Turq is not clueless when it comes to
  our brothers in space.
 
 My recollection is that Charlie Lutes said it was ok to hitch a ride with the 
 aliens in the saucer shaped space ships but not the cigar shaped space ships.
 
 
 
 
 
 To subscribe, send a message to:
 fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com
 
 Or go to: 
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
 and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links





Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: ET morality

2010-09-06 Thread gullible fool










Oh yeah... he'd bring up his women reincarnated as men being light in the 
loafers shtick at almost every lecture.
  
Didn't Lutes say it was those who were supposed to be women in this 
lifetime, but who incarnated as boy baby's, who were light in the loafers? I 
know some people have claimed that as their belief, if not Lutes.
 
I knew someone who was a Ramtha person. The Ramtha people claim the incarnating 
being keeps coming around over and over as the same gender. Only the few 
crossovers break the pattern and are light in the loafers.
 


Under the influence of maya, Brahman appears as Ishvara, the personal God, who 
exists on the celestial level of life, in the subtlest field of creation. In a 
similar manner, under the influence of avidya, atman appears as jiva, or 
individual soul. 
 
- MMY

--- On Mon, 9/6/10, Alex Stanley j_alexander_stan...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: Alex Stanley j_alexander_stan...@yahoo.com
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: ET morality
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, September 6, 2010, 11:05 AM




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley j_alexander_stanley@ 
 wrote:
 
  My recollection is that Charlie Lutes said it was ok to hitch 
  a ride with the aliens in the saucer shaped space ships but 
  not the cigar shaped space ships.
 
 Sounds to me more like a reflection of Charlie's
 homophobia than any actual knowledge.  :-)

Oh yeah... he'd bring up his women reincarnated as men being light in the 
loafers shtick at almost every lecture. 





To subscribe, send a message to:
fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com

Or go to: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links






  

[FairfieldLife] Re: ET morality

2010-09-06 Thread emptybill
Grabbed it. Thanks for the link.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
 
  This theme -- one species with its own view
  of what ethics entails meeting another with an
  entirely different, not only incompatible but
  *inconceivable* view -- has been dealt with
  often in classic science fiction.
 
  Might I recommend, as a starting point, a story
  by Terry Carr in World's Best Science Fiction
  1969 called The Dance of the Changer and the
  Three. Brilliant.

 As it turns out, this classic story is online,
 and you can read it here (it's on two HTML pages,
 so when you get to the bottom of the first you
 need to click on the second):


http://lexal.net/scifi/scifiction/classics/classics_archive/carr/carr1.h\
tml

 This should give you a taste of the magnitude
 of the challenge we've been talking about, a
 great writer trying to imagine what is
 essentially unimaginable, a truly alien
 culture, with truly alien values. It was
 nominated for the Hugo Award for Best Story
 the year it came out. It is still talked about
 in science fiction circles as one of the best
 examples of such an attempt ever done.

 The fascinating thing for me when I first read
 it back in 1969 is that the story of the
 Changer and the Three is almost Zen in its
 essence; it's a koan, which the human trying
 to relate the story to other humans knows he
 will never and *can* never figure out.

 Growing up on Class-A imaginings of the possible
 interactions between humans and extraterrestrials
 like this is what often leaves me with little
 patience when I hear New Age twifs talking about
 the space brothers and our friends from the
 Pleiaides. They have no fuckin' clue.





[FairfieldLife] Re: ET morality

2010-09-05 Thread azgrey


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptyb...@... wrote:

 Who has written or theorized about morality in our possible future
 contacts with ET-s?
 How could we even evaluate them enough to judge if there is any form of
 moral code.
 
 That means no human analogues. WTF?


Sometime back TurquoiseB mentioned Mary Doria Russell's
The Sparrow and Children Of God. They are compelling, 
very well written, and have the crux of your question as a 
key theme. 



[FairfieldLife] Re: ET morality

2010-09-05 Thread emptybill
Thanks for the tip. I'll look them up.

No one else on FFL seems to have poised this Q.
I'm wondering if an ethicist, philosopher or social scientist has
considered it?
The time may be coming in the current century when we feel the need to
give it a very close look.



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, azgrey no_re...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote:
 
  Who has written or theorized about morality in our possible future
  contacts with ET-s?
  How could we even evaluate them enough to judge if there is any form
of
  moral code.
 
  That means no human analogues. WTF?
 

 Sometime back TurquoiseB mentioned Mary Doria Russell's
 The Sparrow and Children Of God. They are compelling,
 very well written, and have the crux of your question as a
 key theme.





Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: ET morality

2010-09-05 Thread Vaj

On Sep 5, 2010, at 1:49 PM, emptybill wrote:

 Thanks for the tip. I'll look them up.
 
 No one else on FFL seems to have poised this Q.
 I'm wondering if an ethicist, philosopher or social scientist has
 considered it?
 The time may be coming in the current century when we feel the need to
 give it a very close look.


Tibetan Buddhism and Hinduism (and many other cultures) recognize a species of 
interbeing that corresponds to the frequently observed greys of modern 
angelic and daemonic mythos. Generally the people who are having provocations 
(abduction experiences, etc.) of such (actually terrestrial) beings, in a 
previous existence, or in the current one, have damaged ecosystems involving 
water. Of course, if you don't believe in reincarnation, you could parse it as 
subconscious elements or even neurological shadows of our reptilian brains or 
something else.

For example, this morality, across time would mean that modern day humans 
involved the Deepwater Horizon disaster would, in some future life, possibly be 
tormented by greys. Disease of the skin, etc. Unfortunately humans, having 
relatively short lifespan durations, can't easily deal with beings whose 
lifespans are vastly longer than theirs. Hell, they can't even get along with 
other humans, in their own time-scale!

This is just one example. As with any beings, you have a number of reasons why 
people in another dimensions of existence would happen upon them. Since their 
scale of time is much, much longer than human beings, humans generally don't 
notice them. That's also why their vehicles (UFO's) seem to appear so quickly 
relative to human-time, they're really in a much longer time-frame. 

Thus judging them moralistically via human life is only relatively meaningful.

[FairfieldLife] Re: ET morality

2010-09-05 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptyb...@... wrote:

 Thanks for the tip. I'll look them up.
 
 No one else on FFL seems to have poised this Q.
 I'm wondering if an ethicist, philosopher or social scientist has
 considered it?

It has been considered in science fiction since
its earliest days, and well. All of the best SF
authors know the limitation they labor under.
They may be trying to write about alien civil-
izations, but they just can't be too alien. If
they were, their readers could not identify,
and thus they cannot sell their fiction. As a 
result, most aliens are pretty much like us.
But this does not mean that these authors have
not tried to portray aliens who were *not*
like us.

This theme -- one species with its own view
of what ethics entails meeting another with an
entirely different, not only incompatible but
*inconceivable* view -- has been dealt with
often in classic science fiction. 

Might I recommend, as a starting point, a story
by Terry Carr in World's Best Science Fiction
1969 called The Dance of the Changer and the
Three. Brilliant. Or many of the works of 
Ursula K. Le Guin, especially The Left Hand
of Darkness and Rocannon's World.

 The time may be coming in the current century when we feel 
 the need to give it a very close look.

As Ray Bradbury once wrote about what he did for
a living, 'We do this not to predict the future 
but to prevent it.

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, azgrey no_reply@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote:
  
   Who has written or theorized about morality in our possible future
   contacts with ET-s?
   How could we even evaluate them enough to judge if there is any form
 of
   moral code.
  
   That means no human analogues. WTF?
  
 
  Sometime back TurquoiseB mentioned Mary Doria Russell's
  The Sparrow and Children Of God. They are compelling,
  very well written, and have the crux of your question as a
  key theme.
 





[FairfieldLife] Re: ET morality

2010-09-05 Thread emptybill

Yep, I agree.

Considering that most SciFi is human story telling, it can't go too far
in imaginings that are outside the envelope. At least Starship
Troopers assumed that contact with intelligent Bugs quickly would become
a race to annihilate the Other.

However, Arthur C. Clark's novel, Childhood's End, came close to
positing the Other (not the look-like-devils) as inconceivable rather
than merely dangerous.

Considering that 75% of our galaxy's stars are in the hub, are 25-45%
older than our local solar system and are only 1-2 light years apart,
the chances of inhabited planets has got to be even higher than current
speculation. This might also explain why we have not been visited by
ET's. We are just too far away ... way out on the archipelagos.





--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote:
 
  Thanks for the tip. I'll look them up.
 
  No one else on FFL seems to have poised this Q.
  I'm wondering if an ethicist, philosopher or social scientist has
  considered it?

 It has been considered in science fiction since
 its earliest days, and well. All of the best SF
 authors know the limitation they labor under.
 They may be trying to write about alien civil-
 izations, but they just can't be too alien. If
 they were, their readers could not identify,
 and thus they cannot sell their fiction. As a
 result, most aliens are pretty much like us.
 But this does not mean that these authors have
 not tried to portray aliens who were *not*
 like us.

 This theme -- one species with its own view
 of what ethics entails meeting another with an
 entirely different, not only incompatible but
 *inconceivable* view -- has been dealt with
 often in classic science fiction.

 Might I recommend, as a starting point, a story
 by Terry Carr in World's Best Science Fiction
 1969 called The Dance of the Changer and the
 Three. Brilliant. Or many of the works of
 Ursula K. Le Guin, especially The Left Hand
 of Darkness and Rocannon's World.

  The time may be coming in the current century when we feel
  the need to give it a very close look.

 As Ray Bradbury once wrote about what he did for
 a living, 'We do this not to predict the future
 but to prevent it.

  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, azgrey no_reply@ wrote:
 
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@
wrote:
   
Who has written or theorized about morality in our possible
future
contacts with ET-s?
How could we even evaluate them enough to judge if there is any
form
  of
moral code.
   
That means no human analogues. WTF?
   
  
   Sometime back TurquoiseB mentioned Mary Doria Russell's
   The Sparrow and Children Of God. They are compelling,
   very well written, and have the crux of your question as a
   key theme.
  
 






[FairfieldLife] Re: ET morality

2010-09-03 Thread pranamoocher
Correct.
Phone home.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptyb...@... wrote:

 Who has written or theorized about morality in our possible future
 contacts with ET-s?
 How could we even evaluate them enough to judge if there is any form
of
 moral code.

 That means no human analogues. WTF?