[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, george_deforest [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Curtis DeltaBlue wrote: When I stopped meditating about 19 years ago it felt a little weird for a few days and I sometimes had to take an afternoon nap since I was used to resting then. But in less than a week I felt great and have never desired the state again. I found that dissociation caused me to be a little detached from my feelings in a way that muffled them a bit. I enjoy the clarity non meditation has brought. is this preference for unmuffled emotion the real me or just ego clinging to my hut, my hut?? i ask this with no judgement of your choice; in fact i am at the same place, a crossroads, and am really asking the question of myself Excellent question and thanks for phrasing it as a choice George. Since I am not selling my state of consciousness as an ultimate anything, for me it does come down to preference. This of course reflects my relativistic way of thinking about consciousness. On the other hand it also reflects my respect for the fact that lots of meditation does in fact change a person in profound ways. In my world terms like ego and hut are lost. My ego is strong enough not to get pushed over by forceful people, and small enough not to make me try to impose myself on others. I am not living in any sort of hut! That judgment comes from a world of pre-suppositions that I have dropped. I am hanging out with Lucy in her sky of diamonds just as richly as when I was way into TM. When I stopped meditating I noticed changes, but not huge ones as I had expected. My description of emotions and thoughts being slightly muffled is subtle. I would have forgotten all about it but recently I tried meditating a few times after 18 years and it did make me feel as if I was stepping back into more dissociation from my experience. It felt like overkill of that quality, although being conscious of the aspect of your self that is just awareness seems valuable. I guess I feel all loaded up in that department and I don't desire more of it. That was the funny thing about quitting for me. I never desired to go back into the balance of consciousness that meditating regularly brought me to. Not an aversion exactly, just a feeling of not wanting to spend any more time in that state. For me the belief in its value was key to how desirable it was. Once I lost faith that MMY was an expert, and going on my own more innocent experience, I concluded that MMY was making a big fuss over something of small but not ultimate value. OTOH I do understand that this style of functioning is just my choice and is not superior in any way to meditation influenced functioning. But for me I know that meditation brings too much of a good thing for me now. I think of it (and I know this will sound pejorative) kind of like a weed high. Interesting but not a state I seek right now. I don't even know why. Flying is a state that I have a bit more of an aversion to. I don't know what that was all about. It was very powerful for me for 10 years but I have zero desire to experience that state again. I think MMY is out to lunch on that state as valuable. It is not just more of what meditation brings for me. It is a completely altered state that is like the acid trips of my youth. I'm glad I had them but I don't need to go there again. Posting here has made me re-think my relationship to growth of consciousness. It has been really satisfying to find people who respect my choices while I can reciprocate with respect for people who choose the qualities that meditation brings. It is a profound tool of awareness. I don't believe that it is developing in people more than just a preferred style of functioning, but I certainly understand its charms. I think I was posting my POV on all this to say, life is so rich in all its forms that if meditation isn't working for you, don't think you will be thrown into a fiery pit! Life without meditation is fantastic, for me. But I am well aware that my POV on all this is no more than my personal values and choices being lived and enjoyed. I hope that answers your question and thanks for even asking George. It was interesting for me to try to articulate where I am at with this .
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SNIPPING some bargage... They are part of a natural cycle of ignorance: awake - asleep - dream - awake -sleep - dream -etc. but samadhi and the fourth (turiya) are beyond this cycle. Didn't you ever see the woodcut of the mystic breaking through to the spheres? The intent is to break out of this chain of ignorance, no? Therefore, anything that ties you back into that cycle, is to be countermined -- the quicker the better. I haven't slept in meditation for 25 years. As usual Vaj is talking about something he has no knowledge. In other words a fraud.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: SNIPPING some bargage... They are part of a natural cycle of ignorance: awake - asleep - dream - awake -sleep - dream -etc. but samadhi and the fourth (turiya) are beyond this cycle. Didn't you ever see the woodcut of the mystic breaking through to the spheres? The intent is to break out of this chain of ignorance, no? Therefore, anything that ties you back into that cycle, is to be countermined -- the quicker the better. I haven't slept in meditation for 25 years. As usual Vaj is talking about something he has no knowledge. In other words a fraud. I haven't NOT slept in meditation for 25 years...
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
On Nov 20, 2007, at 8:15 AM, nablusoss1008 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SNIPPING some bargage... They are part of a natural cycle of ignorance: awake - asleep - dream - awake -sleep - dream -etc. but samadhi and the fourth (turiya) are beyond this cycle. Didn't you ever see the woodcut of the mystic breaking through to the spheres? The intent is to break out of this chain of ignorance, no? Therefore, anything that ties you back into that cycle, is to be countermined -- the quicker the better. I haven't slept in meditation for 25 years. As usual Vaj is talking about something he has no knowledge. In other words a fraud. It's not all about you Nab, it's about the many people who (reportedly) sleep in the domes.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 20, 2007, at 8:15 AM, nablusoss1008 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: SNIPPING some bargage... They are part of a natural cycle of ignorance: awake - asleep - dream - awake -sleep - dream -etc. but samadhi and the fourth (turiya) are beyond this cycle. Didn't you ever see the woodcut of the mystic breaking through to the spheres? The intent is to break out of this chain of ignorance, no? Therefore, anything that ties you back into that cycle, is to be countermined -- the quicker the better. I haven't slept in meditation for 25 years. As usual Vaj is talking about something he has no knowledge. In other words a fraud. It's not all about you Nab, it's about the many people who (reportedly) sleep in the domes. You are making negative and general comments using grand language to make people think you know what you are talking about based on something you have heard (reportedly) from the Domes ? You are worse than I thought.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
Curtis wrote: When I stopped meditating about 19 years ago it felt a little weird for a few days and I sometimes had to take an afternoon nap since I was used to resting then. But in less than a week I felt great and have never desired the state again. I found that dissociation caused me to be a little detached from my feelings in a way that muffled them a bit. I enjoy the clarity non meditation has brought. You stopped TM when you lost your innocence and began the practice of Guru Yoga, as pointed out by Mr. McGurk. This probably happened about the time that you decided to become a teacher of TM. In reality, you have never stopped meditation, for the simple fact that you never began meditation. In fact, you were born into a state of meditation, but as you grew older you became dissassoiated with your real state - your mind became slowly identified with the material world of name and form, until it became totally overshadowed by your material nature. When you started TM you probably transcended for a few moments - this would be called a flashback to your previous state of divine innocence - but then you stopped transcending and somehow became involved in Guru Yoga, following the Marshy. Your spiritual life would have probably evolved over time if you had remained in that innocent state. Instead you must have developed a hankering for intellectual knowledge which then began to overshadow your enlightened state. With time you became more and more enmeshed in the material world, thus losing your contact with the transcendent. Now you only see through a glass darkly; your previous clear state has now become almost lost due to your being caught up in the material world. You've lost the abilty and the opportunity to burn up your karmic accumulations. Your only hope now is to find a true spiritual teacher.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: SNIPPING some bargage... They are part of a natural cycle of ignorance: awake - asleep - dream - awake -sleep - dream -etc. but samadhi and the fourth (turiya) are beyond this cycle. Didn't you ever see the woodcut of the mystic breaking through to the spheres? The intent is to break out of this chain of ignorance, no? Therefore, anything that ties you back into that cycle, is to be countermined -- the quicker the better. I haven't slept in meditation for 25 years. As usual Vaj is talking about something he has no knowledge. In other words a fraud. I haven't NOT slept in meditation for 25 years... What are you doing during the night when you are supposed to get enough sleep ? Whenever there is a fellow asleep during group- programme it will always be the rajasic types who just can't go to bed in time.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
On Nov 20, 2007, at 10:33 AM, hugheshugo wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 20, 2007, at 8:15 AM, nablusoss1008 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: SNIPPING some bargage... They are part of a natural cycle of ignorance: awake - asleep - dream - awake -sleep - dream -etc. but samadhi and the fourth (turiya) are beyond this cycle. Didn't you ever see the woodcut of the mystic breaking through to the spheres? The intent is to break out of this chain of ignorance, no? Therefore, anything that ties you back into that cycle, is to be countermined -- the quicker the better. I haven't slept in meditation for 25 years. As usual Vaj is talking about something he has no knowledge. In other words a fraud. It's not all about you Nab, it's about the many people who (reportedly) sleep in the domes. May I report that's a definite The only reason I mention the domes is because it is occurring in the movement's top meditation spot and something that's been witnessed and mentioned by numerous observers. If it's happening there, it's easy to see that it's probably happening to solitary practitioners as well.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
Richard, you talk like a true believer on the basis of dogma. You cannot know what Deltablues state of consciousness is through knowing him via emails. I don't remember who it was that claimed yoga was exclusively Indian, and my question was is the realization that Purusha is distinct from Prakriti tantamount to the realization that There is a void outside existence which, if entered into, englobes itself and becomes a womb? The obvious answer is, yes. That statement comes from William Blake who practiced no technique and had no indoctrination on consciousness etc. He lived in the late eighteenth century in an intellectual milieu that had invented empiricism. And yet he understood states of consciousness to the point of clear descriptions of epistemology in each of those states--which he could not have done without experience. Any of us can talk a good shtick about enlightenment. Anyone can learn that language. Delta refuses to talk that way, but that doesn't mean he is doomed unless he gets a spiritual master. He may be a master. Remember the Gita's answer to the question about how does an enlightened man sit, talk, and walk? The answer was there's no way you can recognize him on the basis of these things. a Richard J. Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Curtis wrote: When I stopped meditating about 19 years ago it felt a little weird for a few days and I sometimes had to take an afternoon nap since I was used to resting then. But in less than a week I felt great and have never desired the state again. I found that dissociation caused me to be a little detached from my feelings in a way that muffled them a bit. I enjoy the clarity non meditation has brought. You stopped TM when you lost your innocence and began the practice of Guru Yoga, as pointed out by Mr. McGurk. This probably happened about the time that you decided to become a teacher of TM. In reality, you have never stopped meditation, for the simple fact that you never began meditation. In fact, you were born into a state of meditation, but as you grew older you became dissassoiated with your real state - your mind became slowly identified with the material world of name and form, until it became totally overshadowed by your material nature. When you started TM you probably transcended for a few moments - this would be called a flashback to your previous state of divine innocence - but then you stopped transcending and somehow became involved in Guru Yoga, following the Marshy. Your spiritual life would have probably evolved over time if you had remained in that innocent state. Instead you must have developed a hankering for intellectual knowledge which then began to overshadow your enlightened state. With time you became more and more enmeshed in the material world, thus losing your contact with the transcendent. Now you only see through a glass darkly; your previous clear state has now become almost lost due to your being caught up in the material world. You've lost the abilty and the opportunity to burn up your karmic accumulations. Your only hope now is to find a true spiritual teacher. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: I haven't slept in meditation for 25 years. As usual Vaj is talking about something he has no knowledge. In other words a fraud. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I haven't NOT slept in meditation for 25 years... I haven't meditated for 25 years...
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 20, 2007, at 8:15 AM, nablusoss1008 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: SNIPPING some bargage... They are part of a natural cycle of ignorance: awake - asleep - dream - awake -sleep - dream -etc. but samadhi and the fourth (turiya) are beyond this cycle. Didn't you ever see the woodcut of the mystic breaking through to the spheres? The intent is to break out of this chain of ignorance, no? Therefore, anything that ties you back into that cycle, is to be countermined -- the quicker the better. I haven't slept in meditation for 25 years. As usual Vaj is talking about something he has no knowledge. In other words a fraud. It's not all about you Nab, it's about the many people who (reportedly) sleep in the domes. May I report that's a definite
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
Vaj wrote: They have to hear the current spiel, like it or not. But you do bring up an interesting point, because I do believe if we look closely we'll see an attempt to connect the gap between thoughts, the sandhi, to a higher state of consciousness (and furthermore link that to all sorts of fantastic razzle-dazzle, from quantum physics to whether or not your house has an entrance on the south side). This is the crucial indoctrination. This is a perfect example of why I think Vaj hasn't heard a TM introductory lecture. Is there any fantastic razzle-dazzle, quantum physics, or discussion of whether or not your house has an entrance on the south side included in any introductory TM lecture? I think not.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Vaj wrote: They have to hear the current spiel, like it or not. But you do bring up an interesting point, because I do believe if we look closely we'll see an attempt to connect the gap between thoughts, the sandhi, to a higher state of consciousness (and furthermore link that to all sorts of fantastic razzle-dazzle, from quantum physics to whether or not your house has an entrance on the south side). This is the crucial indoctrination. This is a perfect example of why I think Vaj hasn't heard a TM introductory lecture. Is there any fantastic razzle-dazzle, quantum physics, or discussion of whether or not your house has an entrance on the south side included in any introductory TM lecture? I think not. No it isn't included in the intro lecture, deliberately too. Wouldn't want to scare of the punters. You have to wait til day two of checking before you hear all that stuff. Of course with David lynch all over the news everyone can see what it's all about. Which is a good thing in one way as it's more honest. But on the other hand it's not such a good thing because everyone can see what it's all about.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
On Nov 20, 2007, at 11:13 AM, hugheshugo wrote: No it isn't included in the intro lecture, deliberately too. Wouldn't want to scare of the punters. You have to wait til day two of checking before you hear all that stuff. The important thing isn't when it's mentioned these days, but that it is mentioned -- and that it is required part of instruction to hear these things.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
This is a perfect example of why I think Vaj hasn't heard a TM introductory lecture. Is there any fantastic razzle-dazzle, quantum physics, or discussion of whether or not your house has an entrance on the south side included in any introductory TM lecture? I think not. Richard Hughes wrote: No it isn't included in the intro lecture, deliberately too. Wouldn't want to scare of the punters. You have to wait til day two of checking before you hear all that stuff. Is there any fantastic razzle-dazzle, quantum physics, or discussion of whether or not your house has an entrance on the south side included in any day two introductory TM lecture? I think not. Of course with David lynch all over the news everyone can see what it's all about. Which is a good thing in one way as it's more honest. The vast majority of people who ever tried TM probably never even heard of David Lynch, and most people never have any other contact with the TMO after they begin practice. But on the other hand it's not such a good thing because everyone can see what it's all about. TM isn't about anything, much less whether or not your house has an entrance on the south side - that stuff is left for the sycophants like you, Sir.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
No it isn't included in the intro lecture, deliberately too. Wouldn't want to scare of the punters. You have to wait til day two of checking before you hear all that stuff. Vaj wrote: The important thing isn't when it's mentioned these days, but that it is mentioned -- and that it is required part of instruction to hear these things. No, the important thing is that you said it was included in the introductory TM lecture and Mr. Hughes said it was included in the day two TM lecture. You two attempted to mislead and prevaricate.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
On Nov 20, 2007, at 12:03 PM, Richard J. Williams wrote: No it isn't included in the intro lecture, deliberately too. Wouldn't want to scare of the punters. You have to wait til day two of checking before you hear all that stuff. Vaj wrote: The important thing isn't when it's mentioned these days, but that it is mentioned -- and that it is required part of instruction to hear these things. No, the important thing is that you said it was included in the introductory TM lecture and Mr. Hughes said it was included in the day two TM lecture. You two attempted to mislead and prevaricate. Moot point, since it's a required piece of instruction.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
No, the important thing is that you said it was included in the introductory TM lecture and Mr. Hughes said it was included in the day two TM lecture. You two attempted to mislead and prevaricate. Vaj wrote: Moot point, since it's a required piece of instruction. So, you have not attended an introductory TM lecture - I thought so. The vast majority of people who attend an introductory TM lecture never hear another thing about the TMO or TM. Many of them continue to practice and many more do not, but there is no requirement to hear anything about quantum physics or south facing entrances in any introductory lecture in order to learn how to practice TM - that's my point. You and Mr. Hughes were mistaken and you tried to prevaricate.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Curtis wrote: When I stopped meditating about 19 years ago it felt a little weird for a few days and I sometimes had to take an afternoon nap since I was used to resting then. But in less than a week I felt great and have never desired the state again. I found that dissociation caused me to be a little detached from my feelings in a way that muffled them a bit. I enjoy the clarity non meditation has brought. You stopped TM when you lost your innocence and began the practice of Guru Yoga, as pointed out by Mr. McGurk. This probably happened about the time that you decided to become a teacher of TM. In reality, you have never stopped meditation, for the simple fact that you never began meditation. No Richard I was a good little innocent meditator till the end. Sorry to disappoint you. Becoming a teacher gives you a lot more understanding of the practice as well as a lot more experience in it. The Guru Yoga concept it a fabrication that is outside MMY's teaching. I had all the predictable experiences that MMY's discusses when I was involved. Your attempt to appear as if you could know such a thing about me without the use of your senses is not your strongest cognitive move. In fact, you were born into a state of meditation, but as you grew older you became dissassoiated with your real state - your mind became slowly identified with the material world of name and form, until it became totally overshadowed by your material nature. I read those books too. When you started TM you probably transcended for a few moments - this would be called a flashback to your previous state of divine innocence - but then you stopped transcending and somehow became involved in Guru Yoga, following the Marshy. Your spiritual life would have probably evolved over time if you had remained in that innocent state. Instead you must have developed a hankering for intellectual knowledge which then began to overshadow your enlightened state. Yeah, hankering for intellectual knowledge is the enemy of innocence. It fills your mind with all that stuff. Ignorance it bliss huh? With time you became more and more enmeshed in the material world, thus losing your contact with the transcendent. Now you only see through a glass darkly; your previous clear state has now become almost lost due to your being caught up in the material world. You've lost the abilty and the opportunity to burn up your karmic accumulations. Your only hope now is to find a true spiritual teacher. Like you have, no doubt? If I was more like you and saw things your way I would be better in every way! Caught up in the material world, I guess you mean living life. Yeah, that is a problem for me. News flash: I don't have original sin and I don't have karmic debt. These concepts were made up by ancient people and they are optional. You may have a use for joining them in these beliefs. I don't. I am fine just the way I am and am not off anyone else's path. I am enjoying my own. You enjoy yours and I'll enjoy mine, and no throwing sand in the sandbox. OK?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
Angela, Thanks for sticking up for the idea that a person may leave TM and there may not be something terribly wrong with him! Telling people that I chose to leave TM voluntarily after having good experiences with it and enjoying it for years is an interesting mirror on people. I learn a lot about a person depending on how they react. Of course when I was into TM if a person left I would go through the same predictable moves of making the person wrong somehow. I think it is a natural reaction that comes when we hear someone has cancer or something terrible happens. We want to distance ourself from this person so we can feel that this tragedy wouldn't happen to us,and that often includes blaming the person a bit. Oh that person was just too(fill in the blank). One nice thing about posting here is that I have found a few people still on a spiritual path who get my decision. Likewise I have spent some time rehabbing my own perspective on people who continue on spiritual paths. I am just as prone to the make wrong move about other people's decisions. Getting to know someone as a more complete person is part of the journey for me. It involves not seeing them in a one dimensional way, as a spiritual person, but just as a version of folks like me! The specific point that Shemp and Richard bring up that somehow I wasn't doing the practice properly or had gotten too caught up in the guru thing is one of the oddest versions of make wrong. It involves a few hidden assumptions about the program that are very odd. Despite my reporting that I loved the TM experience, trying to make it seem as if I could have rounded for years incorrectly is strange. What they don't get is that the experiences we have in meditation and the states they produce are very tied to a set of beliefs and assumptions about the value of those experiences. Especially if you are facile with language and use a lot of Sanskrit terms to describe your experiences, you can get very locked in to a POV. It is inconceivable to think in different terms, underneath the assumptions contained in the language. Once you accept enlightenment as a given, you are already hip deep. But I no longer accept the concept of enlightenment as a given. And I don't accept that the experiences of different ways of functioning caused by meditation is positive for everyone. The idea that the fulltiime people were doing something wrong is common for parttime people in the movement. Also the idea among fulltime people that parttimers are not moving as fast is pretty entrenched. The bazaar idea that people following MMY's instructions directly are off the program is an odd notion that is unshakable for Shemp. I and others have hit my head against this wall more than once. But here is my truth about how I left. I enjoyed TM and its experiences until the day I decided that it no longer served me. After I left I spent some time revealing to the press that the brochure version of TM practice was not the whole story, and that the movement was deceptive about it's inner beliefs. It seemed important to me that people be allowed to make informed decisions about TM before getting involved. This basically alienated all my TM friends which I totally understand. The Internet provides such a complete understanding for those who seek it, that I no longer felt that I had a contribution to make concerning TM. With TM's entry price so high it is a moot point now. People getting into TM now know or should know all they need. Posting on this board has been a personal mission to re-connect with people on a spiritual path. Of course my name is and probably should be mud for TM fundies, but they don't post here. Now I feel positive about people making different choices than I am concerning spirituality and this has been my growth. I respect people who continue to research their consciousness with techniques and think it is important for humans to pursue, but not for me. So Kumbaya Angela. You have immersed yourself in many cultures and POVs, so it doesn't surprise me that you get me. I am not a master of anything or enlightened in the way that MMY describes. It is the ability to deeply understand many POVs from people from different cultures, internal and external that is my concept of enlightenment now. It is an intellectual choice of perspective about people. It starts with an assumption that people have good reasons for acting and thinking as they do. It just takes some time to uncover them. Thanks for the kind intentions. Richard (meaning well I assume): You've lost the abilty and the opportunity to burn up your karmic accumulations. Your only hope now is to find a true spiritual teacher. You gotta love it! --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Angela Mailander [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Richard, you talk like a true believer on the basis of dogma. You cannot know what Deltablues state of consciousness is through knowing him
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 20, 2007, at 11:13 AM, hugheshugo wrote: No it isn't included in the intro lecture, deliberately too. Wouldn't want to scare of the punters. You have to wait til day two of checking before you hear all that stuff. The important thing isn't when it's mentioned these days, but that it is mentioned -- and that it is required part of instruction to hear these things. I wasn't arguing against your point there Vaj it was directed more at Richard. I actually agree with you. The context of TM teaching is very important and the siddhis even more so. I would like to know how much any of it would work without the belief system supporting it. I'm annoyed that I had any contact with the teaching by reading before I learnt because I can't be sure which is the power of suggestion and which is innocence. My early experiences of enlightened states fit MMYs descriptions perfectly, but I had read them first! It wouldn't bother most people I'm sure but it does get to me as I know how easy it is for the mind to come up with detailed fantasies in an instant, for instance under hypnosis. Or when I've done LSD I've had experiences where the power of suggestion is so immediate it seems like synchronicity. The mind is a powerful thing for sure.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
I don't remember who it was that claimed yoga was exclusively Indian, According to Eliade, writing in the definitive book on yoga, Yoga is unique to India. Eliade is a famous author, an expert on Yoga, Shamanism, the history of religion. Work cited: 'Yoga: Immortality and Freedom' by Mircea Eliade Princeton U. Press, http://tinyurl.com/2bt8sn and my question was is the realization that Purusha is distinct from Prakriti tantamount to the realization that There is a void outside existence which, if entered into, englobes itself and becomes a womb? There's no void out there, Angela, that's just a misnomer. According to Nagarjuna, the state of Nirvana is devoid of own being - that's different from there being an actual void somewhere in the universe. The womb, according to Vasubandhu, is the storehouse of conciousness - from the conciousness only school of Vijnanavada: there is only conciousness; nothing outside; nothing out there. All experience is conditioned by conciousness - there is no other. The obvious answer is, yes. That statement comes from William Blake who practiced no technique and had no indoctrination on consciousness etc. He lived in the late eighteenth century in an intellectual milieu that had invented empiricism. And yet he understood states of consciousness to the point of clear descriptions of epistemology in each of those states--which he could not have done without experience. Maybe so. Any of us can talk a good shtick about enlightenment. No, not anyone: from what I've read, Lon P. Stacks is almost totally ignorant of enlightenment: I thought I'd been strapped to the bed in preparation for Bevan to come in and impregnate me with a baby guru who would take Maharishi's place when he dropped the body. What I saw was Bevan over me, which was all delusion anyway. During the guided imagery, Bevan's face had turned into my father's face. (Bevan had been like a father figure to me.) The therapist interpreted this literally, that I had a real memory of seeing my father over me as he was raping me. - Lon P. Stacks Read more: Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental From: Willytex Date: Sun, Oct 29 2000 7:06 pm Subject: Stacks and Knapp http://tinyurl.com/3d2hfj
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
Curtis wrote: I don't have original sin and I don't have karmic debt. This is some really bad karma: http://www.suggestibility.org/ The TM failed predictions of the age of enlightenment and etc. haven't been piling up for as long. I'm sure that no matter what happens, events will be rationalized in favor of Mahesh. - Joe Kellet Read more: Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental From: Mongo Date: Mon, Apr 22 2002 7:19 pm Subject: My Fears http://tinyurl.com/3yy9j4
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is a perfect example of why I think Vaj hasn't heard a TM introductory lecture. Is there any fantastic razzle-dazzle, quantum physics, or discussion of whether or not your house has an entrance on the south side included in any introductory TM lecture? I think not. The only people allowed to give intro lectures or teach TM are recertified teachers - all others have been banned from teaching which I think includes everyone in this discussion thread most of whom seem to be talking from their memories of teaching in the 60s or 70s. At the recertification course, TM teachers spent 100% of their time learning how to open and operate Enlightenment Centers in shopping malls. These centers were supposed to not only sell TM but also massages, ayurvedic herbs, MSV houses, TM-sidhis and a whole variety of vedic products and courses associated with INVINCIBILITY for the nation. The lobbies of the Enlightenment Center had a picture of the world's tallest phallus, I mean building, that the TMO wants to build. MMY planned on opening a few thousands of these Centers immediately. Of course only a few did open and I think they've all closed by now. But MMY's plan was for these new centers to provide the whole crazy TMO schbang to the general population, not just TM.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
Curtis wrote: You gotta love it! The proof that you were never on the program lies in the fact that you thought you were on a program. There's no such thing as TM, Curtis - that's just a silly acronym, made up to communicate between dilettantes. In reality, there is no path, no gate to go through, and no meditation technique at all. Everyone meditates because the meditation simply means to think things over, and hardly a person could be found that doesn't think and pause once or twice a day to take stock of their own mental contents. And we are all transcending, even without a technique. What gets me is that people get so dissociated into a state in which some part of a person's life becomes separated from the rest of their personality making it seem to function independently. They even begin to think that they are teachers of TM. Then they often think that they've stopped meditating, ergo, stopped thinking. Obviously you haven't done that. But, how could you tell the truth all that time when you were a teacher of TM, when you were brainwashed from birth? It's just impossible. I'm taking control. Are you? A very concise introduction to the BITE model as it applies to newsgroups with a view to developing a preliminary model for a twelve-step recovery plan. Read more: Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental From: Willytex Date: Sun, Apr 22 2001 10:34 pm Subject: Reality BITE http://tinyurl.com/3c2fne
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
Thank you Curtis--the feeling is mutual. You write: You have immersed yourself in many cultures and POVs, so it doesn't surprise me that you get me. I am not a master of anything or enlightened in the way that MMY describes. It is the ability to deeply understand many POVs from people from different cultures, internal and external that is my concept of enlightenment now. It is an intellectual choice of perspective about people. It starts with an assumption that people have good reasons for acting and thinking as they do. It just takes some time to uncover them. My take on it all is that we are biological entities incarnate on a planet and we have consciousness which is programmable into various mind states. We are all programmed. It is unavoidable. Even if you grow up in the woods like the wild boy of Aviron, you are programmed. In his case, the plants and animals and natural phenomena he lived with formed his programming. There are programming styles we share with others. We call it education, we call it brainwashing, we call it religion, we call it democrat or republican---I don't care what you call it, it's all programming. And we can't navigate in a world without it. There are also group programs. We get different programming as Americans than we get as Chinese. I agree with Rory that death means the realization that all that programming is just that: programming. But realizing that, I also realize that some programming is destructive, while other kinds of programming is not. World leaders also understand that there is such a thing as collective programming. It begins when we salute the flag in Kindergarten. curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Angela, Thanks for sticking up for the idea that a person may leave TM and there may not be something terribly wrong with him! Telling people that I chose to leave TM voluntarily after having good experiences with it and enjoying it for years is an interesting mirror on people. I learn a lot about a person depending on how they react. Of course when I was into TM if a person left I would go through the same predictable moves of making the person wrong somehow. I think it is a natural reaction that comes when we hear someone has cancer or something terrible happens. We want to distance ourself from this person so we can feel that this tragedy wouldn't happen to us,and that often includes blaming the person a bit. Oh that person was just too(fill in the blank). One nice thing about posting here is that I have found a few people still on a spiritual path who get my decision. Likewise I have spent some time rehabbing my own perspective on people who continue on spiritual paths. I am just as prone to the make wrong move about other people's decisions. Getting to know someone as a more complete person is part of the journey for me. It involves not seeing them in a one dimensional way, as a spiritual person, but just as a version of folks like me! The specific point that Shemp and Richard bring up that somehow I wasn't doing the practice properly or had gotten too caught up in the guru thing is one of the oddest versions of make wrong. It involves a few hidden assumptions about the program that are very odd. Despite my reporting that I loved the TM experience, trying to make it seem as if I could have rounded for years incorrectly is strange. What they don't get is that the experiences we have in meditation and the states they produce are very tied to a set of beliefs and assumptions about the value of those experiences. Especially if you are facile with language and use a lot of Sanskrit terms to describe your experiences, you can get very locked in to a POV. It is inconceivable to think in different terms, underneath the assumptions contained in the language. Once you accept enlightenment as a given, you are already hip deep. But I no longer accept the concept of enlightenment as a given. And I don't accept that the experiences of different ways of functioning caused by meditation is positive for everyone. The idea that the fulltiime people were doing something wrong is common for parttime people in the movement. Also the idea among fulltime people that parttimers are not moving as fast is pretty entrenched. The bazaar idea that people following MMY's instructions directly are off the program is an odd notion that is unshakable for Shemp. I and others have hit my head against this wall more than once. But here is my truth about how I left. I enjoyed TM and its experiences until the day I decided that it no longer served me. After I left I spent some time revealing to the press that the brochure version of TM practice was not the whole story, and that the movement was deceptive about it's inner beliefs. It seemed important to me that people be allowed to make informed decisions about TM before getting
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Curtis wrote: You gotta love it! The proof that you were never on the program lies in the fact that you thought you were on a program. There's no such thing as TM, Curtis - that's just a silly acronym, made up to communicate between dilettantes. In reality, there is no path, no gate to go through, and no meditation technique at all. Everyone meditates because the meditation simply means to think things over, You must be aware that you are using what MMY refers to as contemplation in place of his understanding of meditation? and hardly a person could be found that doesn't think and pause once or twice a day to take stock of their own mental contents. And we are all transcending, even without a technique. So why do I need a spiritual master? What gets me is that people get so dissociated into a state in which some part of a person's life becomes separated from the rest of their personality making it seem to function independently. They even begin to think that they are teachers of TM. I was a teacher of TM. I taught people how to do TM. My action was not my identity, but it was part of my reality. Then they often think that they've stopped meditating, ergo, stopped thinking. Obviously you haven't done that. But, how could you tell the truth all that time when you were a teacher of TM, when you were brainwashed from birth? It's just impossible. Well I agree that we accumulate a lot of beliefs unconsciously by growing up in a culture, teaching TM does involve a bit of conscious choice to make the practice seem more scientific than it actually is. It is a traditional practice marketed as a scientific one which involves a bit of misdirection. I'm taking control. Are you? Sure to the degree that I can become conscious of unconscious processes and beliefs. A very concise introduction to the BITE model as it applies to newsgroups with a view to developing a preliminary model for a twelve-step recovery plan. I am not seeking recovery from anything. Unlike some who left TM I didn't feel as though it damaged me. I felt like it made me function in a way that I no longer value. But I will check out the link. OK, Steve Hassan's work, I am familiar with it, read his book and talked with him on the phone. His book was the first step for me to recognize that there were other ways to explain what I was experiencing in TM then the traditional model. It rocked my world. When I first left TM I used to assist in exit counseling cases for people who had lost their ability to understand that their involvement in a group was interfering with their ability to support themselves in society. Steve and Pat Ryan were pioneers in helping create ways to help restore choice for people whose lives have become unmanageable. Although it is a work in progress, they have taken Lifton and Singer's insights and made them useful in the context of exit counseling. I spent a fair amount of time with Pat Ryan and consider him to be brilliant and sincere in his desire to help people whose lives are not working and whose families are in much pain. Read more: Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental From: Willytex Date: Sun, Apr 22 2001 10:34 pm Subject: Reality BITE http://tinyurl.com/3c2fne
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
In areas where there is no Recert many are teaching with Maharishi's approval. Not all the details about Enlightenment Centers are totally accurate. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, boo_lives [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams willytex@ wrote: This is a perfect example of why I think Vaj hasn't heard a TM introductory lecture. Is there any fantastic razzle-dazzle, quantum physics, or discussion of whether or not your house has an entrance on the south side included in any introductory TM lecture? I think not. The only people allowed to give intro lectures or teach TM are recertified teachers - all others have been banned from teaching which I think includes everyone in this discussion thread most of whom seem to be talking from their memories of teaching in the 60s or 70s. At the recertification course, TM teachers spent 100% of their time learning how to open and operate Enlightenment Centers in shopping malls. These centers were supposed to not only sell TM but also massages, ayurvedic herbs, MSV houses, TM-sidhis and a whole variety of vedic products and courses associated with INVINCIBILITY for the nation. The lobbies of the Enlightenment Center had a picture of the world's tallest phallus, I mean building, that the TMO wants to build. MMY planned on opening a few thousands of these Centers immediately. Of course only a few did open and I think they've all closed by now. But MMY's plan was for these new centers to provide the whole crazy TMO schbang to the general population, not just TM.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
Curtis DeltaBlue wrote: When I stopped meditating about 19 years ago it felt a little weird for a few days and I sometimes had to take an afternoon nap since I was used to resting then. But in less than a week I felt great and have never desired the state again. I found that dissociation caused me to be a little detached from my feelings in a way that muffled them a bit. I enjoy the clarity non meditation has brought. is this preference for unmuffled emotion the real me or just ego clinging to my hut, my hut?? i ask this with no judgement of your choice; in fact i am at the same place, a crossroads, and am really asking the question of myself
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 18, 2007, at 9:59 PM, emptybill wrote: Empty Bill: To parrot Vaj: Any real yogi familiar with Patanjali will be well aware Patanjali does not discuss the topic of effort in yoga other than to comment as follows: 2.46: a steady (sthira) and comfortable (sukha) seat (asana) comes about from – 2.47: the loosening (shaitilya) of endeavour (prayatna) and a consequent coinciding (samapatti) with the endless (ananta). Nor does he ever use the word alambana in the sense of a cognitive object in any of the sutras. This displays a basic misunderstanding of sutra literature in general and the prerequisites for yoga-darshana study, a la Patanjali. Keep in mind Billy, a sutra requires a commentary to clarify it's purpose, intent and practical application. This would typically mean the 20 or so commentaries of the YS. But before these are even approached, one must understand sankhya. In fact one of the titles for the YS is Sankhya-pravachana, The Enunciation of Sankhya. The prerequisite for understanding of the YS is a thorough comprehension sankhya via the Tattva-samasa-sutras. Once one has this understanding, one will also understand that an alambana will be based on any of the 24 evolutes of matter, the prakritis and the vikritis and that an alambana approaches union or yoga via some method. No matter how easy and simple any of these methods are, they do constitute some type of effort. If one skipped the Tattva-samasa-sutras, one may miss this essential understanding. This really has little to do with Buddhist practice, but one can find a similar dichotomy between causal vehicles of Buddhism which rely on dualistic methods, all using some form of effort and nondual, truly effortless practice. In Hindu systems, truly effortless practice would be found in the Hindu nondual schools, like advaita vedanta or other nondual schools. For a more direct comparison, one could compare the nine-fold division of the Nyingmapa with the ninefold division in the Bengali tantras, as they are roughly parallel. All meaningless crap without a direct experience of the Absolute.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
On Nov 19, 2007, at 8:13 AM, do.rflex wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 18, 2007, at 9:59 PM, emptybill wrote: Empty Bill: To parrot Vaj: Any real yogi familiar with Patanjali will be well aware Patanjali does not discuss the topic of effort in yoga other than to comment as follows: 2.46: a steady (sthira) and comfortable (sukha) seat (asana) comes about from – 2.47: the loosening (shaitilya) of endeavour (prayatna) and a consequent coinciding (samapatti) with the endless (ananta). Nor does he ever use the word alambana in the sense of a cognitive object in any of the sutras. This displays a basic misunderstanding of sutra literature in general and the prerequisites for yoga-darshana study, a la Patanjali. Keep in mind Billy, a sutra requires a commentary to clarify it's purpose, intent and practical application. This would typically mean the 20 or so commentaries of the YS. But before these are even approached, one must understand sankhya. In fact one of the titles for the YS is Sankhya-pravachana, The Enunciation of Sankhya. The prerequisite for understanding of the YS is a thorough comprehension sankhya via the Tattva-samasa-sutras. Once one has this understanding, one will also understand that an alambana will be based on any of the 24 evolutes of matter, the prakritis and the vikritis and that an alambana approaches union or yoga via some method. No matter how easy and simple any of these methods are, they do constitute some type of effort. If one skipped the Tattva-samasa-sutras, one may miss this essential understanding. This really has little to do with Buddhist practice, but one can find a similar dichotomy between causal vehicles of Buddhism which rely on dualistic methods, all using some form of effort and nondual, truly effortless practice. In Hindu systems, truly effortless practice would be found in the Hindu nondual schools, like advaita vedanta or other nondual schools. For a more direct comparison, one could compare the nine-fold division of the Nyingmapa with the ninefold division in the Bengali tantras, as they are roughly parallel. All meaningless crap without a direct experience of the Absolute. Actually it would still possess meaning with or without a direct experience of the absolute. What's important to get is just because someone tells you something represents the absolute does not mean it is the absolute. But the latter is common is diluted and/or distorted traditions, like the TMO.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 19, 2007, at 8:13 AM, do.rflex wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Nov 18, 2007, at 9:59 PM, emptybill wrote: Empty Bill: To parrot Vaj: Any real yogi familiar with Patanjali will be well aware Patanjali does not discuss the topic of effort in yoga other than to comment as follows: 2.46: a steady (sthira) and comfortable (sukha) seat (asana) comes about from – 2.47: the loosening (shaitilya) of endeavour (prayatna) and a consequent coinciding (samapatti) with the endless (ananta). Nor does he ever use the word alambana in the sense of a cognitive object in any of the sutras. This displays a basic misunderstanding of sutra literature in general and the prerequisites for yoga-darshana study, a la Patanjali. Keep in mind Billy, a sutra requires a commentary to clarify it's purpose, intent and practical application. This would typically mean the 20 or so commentaries of the YS. But before these are even approached, one must understand sankhya. In fact one of the titles for the YS is Sankhya-pravachana, The Enunciation of Sankhya. The prerequisite for understanding of the YS is a thorough comprehension sankhya via the Tattva-samasa-sutras. Once one has this understanding, one will also understand that an alambana will be based on any of the 24 evolutes of matter, the prakritis and the vikritis and that an alambana approaches union or yoga via some method. No matter how easy and simple any of these methods are, they do constitute some type of effort. If one skipped the Tattva-samasa-sutras, one may miss this essential understanding. This really has little to do with Buddhist practice, but one can find a similar dichotomy between causal vehicles of Buddhism which rely on dualistic methods, all using some form of effort and nondual, truly effortless practice. In Hindu systems, truly effortless practice would be found in the Hindu nondual schools, like advaita vedanta or other nondual schools. For a more direct comparison, one could compare the nine-fold division of the Nyingmapa with the ninefold division in the Bengali tantras, as they are roughly parallel. All meaningless crap without a direct experience of the Absolute. Actually it would still possess meaning with or without a direct experience of the absolute. What's important to get is just because someone tells you something represents the absolute does not mean it is the absolute. I'm not talking about what somebody says *about* the Absolute, I'm talking about the *experience* of the Absolute. Like I said, Vaj, without a direct experience of the Absolute, all of your pseudo scholarly comparative mumbo-jumbo verbiage is meaningless apart from satisfying curiosity but with nothing practical to show for it. If you can't come up with anything more than your pontifications you're wasting everybody's time. But specifically offering something practicable instead of just ignorantly bashing TM isn't your purpose, is it? Your purpose is just to bash TM, a technique that works, without offering anything else better; an empty arrogant exercise in personal hostility. But the latter is common is diluted and/or distorted traditions, like the TMO. Your attempt to characterize the TMO has nothing to do with the reality of the actual direct *experience* of the Absolute by countless numbers of TMers via TM. And you haven't a clue what that really is since you've never *experienced* the actual properly instructed practice of TM yourself.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
Do.rflex, Please examine if your use of the word Absolute squares with Advaita. Absolute is not Pure Being/amness/soul/mind/pure consciousness/intellect/heart. These other words are to label the portal of the Absolute the place where one waits for Grace to whisk one into the beyond-the-soul-ness, beyond identification with Hiranyagarba. TM is a technique of approaching Pure Being, and by sheer momentum, the transcending-attention is found blinding blasting through the outer barrier of pleasure that surrounds amness -- that's a ritam-skin around the nucleus of soul-within -- that's an armor of bliss that stops most transcending in it's tracks. Transcended means all duality is brought to a point value of amness wherein the gunas are in perfect balance and not champing at the bit to manifest something. OM is heard clearly then. A note that sings of UNITY, but not freedom. Practicing that ability (enter being, reside, wait until some seed of duality sprouts, exit being) cultures the nervous system, and the soul itself is eventually re-cognized as mere reflection, image, illusion, and suddenly it is understood to be a prison -- and escaping from one's cell is accomplished by escaping into nothing. See Buddha/Vaj for details about the experiences of approaching ritam and dealing with that bliss-armor which attracts identification so well that Indra etc. all get glommed up with perfection's tarbaby. The only experience of the Absolute is being. Only being can be a proper symbol for the Absolute, but it's merely a reflection -- what the Absolute sees when looking into a mirror. As if, but that's the only way to work with words to convey this non-event, the non-everything, the Absolute. You can't take it with you. That it is identification. I am is the last thought (the sound OM is the thought: amness) before the practice of residing in thoughtlessness puts even that subtle identifying to an end. Pure being is pure identity, unsullied ego, but ego nonetheless, and it must be abandoned. It is not enough to merely withdraw from acts of being. To merely reside in being is but to abstain from placing identity on other symbols, but the possibility of identification must be ended too. Soul must evaporate like the river into the ocean too -- just as the mind had to do to enter the soul and rest therein. I write these words and know that I had to read suchlike hundreds of times before I finally got it that amness is not the ultimate. It was an extremely subtle concept that just kept going right over my head. Yet herein for the umpteenth time, it is clearly stated in words -- but it is hidden in plain sight. Read Ramana's Talks three times. Knowledge in the books stays in the books -- they say -- but if you just keep churning on the words, you'll be building something, sooner or later -- like a baseball field in the corn attracted that long line of cars on a country road -- the meaning will come. Edg --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, do.rflex [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Nov 19, 2007, at 8:13 AM, do.rflex wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Nov 18, 2007, at 9:59 PM, emptybill wrote: Empty Bill: To parrot Vaj: Any real yogi familiar with Patanjali will be well aware Patanjali does not discuss the topic of effort in yoga other than to comment as follows: 2.46: a steady (sthira) and comfortable (sukha) seat (asana) comes about from – 2.47: the loosening (shaitilya) of endeavour (prayatna) and a consequent coinciding (samapatti) with the endless (ananta). Nor does he ever use the word alambana in the sense of a cognitive object in any of the sutras. This displays a basic misunderstanding of sutra literature in general and the prerequisites for yoga-darshana study, a la Patanjali. Keep in mind Billy, a sutra requires a commentary to clarify it's purpose, intent and practical application. This would typically mean the 20 or so commentaries of the YS. But before these are even approached, one must understand sankhya. In fact one of the titles for the YS is Sankhya-pravachana, The Enunciation of Sankhya. The prerequisite for understanding of the YS is a thorough comprehension sankhya via the Tattva-samasa-sutras. Once one has this understanding, one will also understand that an alambana will be based on any of the 24 evolutes of matter, the prakritis and the vikritis and that an alambana approaches union or yoga via some method. No matter how easy and simple any of these methods are, they do constitute some type of effort. If one skipped the Tattva-samasa-sutras, one may miss this essential understanding. This really has little to do with
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
On Nov 19, 2007, at 9:20 AM, do.rflex wrote: I'm not talking about what somebody says *about* the Absolute, I'm talking about the *experience* of the Absolute. Like I said, Vaj, without a direct experience of the Absolute, all of your pseudo scholarly comparative mumbo-jumbo verbiage is meaningless apart from satisfying curiosity but with nothing practical to show for it. If you can't come up with anything more than your pontifications you're wasting everybody's time. But specifically offering something practicable instead of just ignorantly bashing TM isn't your purpose, is it? Your purpose is just to bash TM, a technique that works, without offering anything else better; an empty arrogant exercise in personal hostility. Sorry do.rflex, you seem to have misunderstood once again. I do not assume (like you do) that TMers experience anything like the absolute, but I do accept that they have been conditioned to believe they are having the experience they were told they are experiencing. A large part of TM indoctrination, as you know, is setting up belief expectations and telling people what it is they will experience. That does not make it true. So, therefore your belief that TMers have this experience is IMHO, mostly conditioning. If you don't like to hear more about the YS and yoga-darshana because they threaten you, don't read what I have to say then. But keep in mind, if you don't understand the relative correctly, don't expect then to present views on the absolute that are of any value other than to those who 'drank the koolaid' (i.e. those who've decided to believe their TM indoctrination). The more indoctrination a TMer has, the more tenaciously they hold onto the newly acquired conditioning. I'm guessing you've had quite a bit! ;-) But the latter is common is diluted and/or distorted traditions, like the TMO. Your attempt to characterize the TMO has nothing to do with the reality of the actual direct *experience* of the Absolute by countless numbers of TMers via TM. And you haven't a clue what that really is since you've never *experienced* the actual properly instructed practice of TM yourself. Again, you are operating on a false assumption, that TMers, via TM, experience the absolute. I don't accept that that is in fact the case in all or most TMers, although I do accept that many believe they are experiencing pure consciousness, the home of all the laws of nature, the unified field, the vacuum state, etc., etc. etc.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
On Nov 19, 2007, at 10:07 AM, Duveyoung wrote: See Buddha/Vaj for details about the experiences of approaching ritam and dealing with that bliss-armor which attracts identification so well that Indra etc. all get glommed up with perfection's tarbaby. Unfortunately what most TMer's are conditioned to believe is pure consciousness (and a host of other synonyms) is nothing more than a thought-free state. This state is well known in the yoga tradition as sthiti. However the important thing to realize is that sthiti is not samprajnata-samadhi. That's not to say some people cannot or will not, everyone's different. And this does take effort (prayatna). As Patanjali says: The effort to remain there is practice. Interestingly the Sanskrit word for meditative effort, prayatna, is also the word the word for meditation technique or method. Go figure. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do.rflex, Please examine if your use of the word Absolute squares with Advaita. I use the word Absolute as described by Maharishi. [snip frenetic, manic rant]
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
Vaj wrote: The prerequisite for understanding of the YS is a thorough comprehension sankhya via the Tattva-samasa-sutras. According to Kapila: And from the contrast with that which is composed of the three constituents, there follows, for the purusha, the character of Being, a witness; freedom from misery, neutrality, percipience, and non-agency. - Kaplila Once one has this understanding, one will also understand that an alambana will be based on any of the 24 evolutes of matter, the prakritis and the vikritis and that an alambana approaches union or yoga via some method. No matter how easy and simple any of these methods are, they do constitute some type of effort. So, Vaj you're thinking that Yoga means union - so how, exactly are you going to get a union out of isolating the Purusha and the prakriti? Kaivalya, the ultimate goal of yoga, means freedom and isolation. Only the minds born of meditation are free from karmic impressions. — Patanjali Enlightenment depends SOLELY upon discriminative knowledge of the true nature of things: prakriti, the relative, is the result of cause and effect, the interplay of the gunas born of nature, which, in all cases, are seperate from Purusha, the Being. It is ignorance, propelled by the force of karma, which is misery in an endless cycle called samsara. Read more: Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental, alt.yoga From: Willytex Date: Sun, Apr 10 2005 9:21 pm Subject: One of Four Humans, Not Counting a Dwarf http://tinyurl.com/yvdsyr
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 19, 2007, at 9:20 AM, do.rflex wrote: I'm not talking about what somebody says *about* the Absolute, I'm talking about the *experience* of the Absolute. Like I said, Vaj, without a direct experience of the Absolute, all of your pseudo scholarly comparative mumbo-jumbo verbiage is meaningless apart from satisfying curiosity but with nothing practical to show for it. If you can't come up with anything more than your pontifications you're wasting everybody's time. But specifically offering something practicable instead of just ignorantly bashing TM isn't your purpose, is it? Your purpose is just to bash TM, a technique that works, without offering anything else better; an empty arrogant exercise in personal hostility. Sorry do.rflex, you seem to have misunderstood once again. I do not assume (like you do) that TMers experience anything like the absolute, but I do accept that they have been conditioned to believe they are having the experience they were told they are experiencing. A large part of TM indoctrination, as you know, is setting up belief expectations and telling people what it is they will experience. That does not make it true. You wouldn't know, Vaj, since you've never *experienced* properly instructed TM. So, therefore your belief that TMers have this experience is IMHO, mostly conditioning. Nope. I've seen the direct results and the predictable effects in countless TMers. If you don't like to hear more about the YS and yoga-darshana because they threaten you, don't read what I have to say then. They certainly don't threaten me in any way at all - any more than any other literature would. They are just *irrelevant* to the successful practice of TM. But keep in mind, if you don't understand the relative correctly, don't expect then to present views on the absolute that are of any value other than to those who 'drank the koolaid' (i.e. those who've decided to believe their TM indoctrination). The more indoctrination a TMer has, the more tenaciously they hold onto the newly acquired conditioning. I'm guessing you've had quite a bit! ;-) I go by *experience*, not TMO propaganda. In case you hadn't noticed I have quite a dim view of the TMO as it's currently being operated, and with all the Vedic stuff. My *experience* doesn't lie. Your total lack of that *experience* disqualifies you from judging it. But the latter is common is diluted and/or distorted traditions, like the TMO. Your attempt to characterize the TMO has nothing to do with the reality of the actual direct *experience* of the Absolute by countless numbers of TMers via TM. And you haven't a clue what that really is since you've never *experienced* the actual properly instructed practice of TM yourself. Again, you are operating on a false assumption, that TMers, via TM, experience the absolute. I don't accept that that is in fact the case in all or most TMers, although I do accept that many believe they are experiencing pure consciousness, the home of all the laws of nature, the unified field, the vacuum state, etc., etc. etc. Since I've instructed tens of hundreds of people into TM and directly seen the results, my views carry a hell of a lot more legitimacy than an outside self-appointed critic who has not - and who has not even *experienced* TM himself.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
How can you possibly know what others experience or do not experience? I understand your point and I agree that expectation muddies the waters of meditation, but that doesn't mean that some, eventually, swan-like, get through that muddy water and come out clean. Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 19, 2007, at 9:20 AM, do.rflex wrote: I'm not talking about what somebody says *about* the Absolute, I'm talking about the *experience* of the Absolute. Like I said, Vaj, without a direct experience of the Absolute, all of your pseudo scholarly comparative mumbo-jumbo verbiage is meaningless apart from satisfying curiosity but with nothing practical to show for it. If you can't come up with anything more than your pontifications you're wasting everybody's time. But specifically offering something practicable instead of just ignorantly bashing TM isn't your purpose, is it? Your purpose is just to bash TM, a technique that works, without offering anything else better; an empty arrogant exercise in personal hostility. Sorry do.rflex, you seem to have misunderstood once again. I do not assume (like you do) that TMers experience anything like the absolute, but I do accept that they have been conditioned to believe they are having the experience they were told they are experiencing. A large part of TM indoctrination, as you know, is setting up belief expectations and telling people what it is they will experience. That does not make it true. So, therefore your belief that TMers have this experience is IMHO, mostly conditioning. If you don't like to hear more about the YS and yoga-darshana because they threaten you, don't read what I have to say then. But keep in mind, if you don't understand the relative correctly, don't expect then to present views on the absolute that are of any value other than to those who 'drank the koolaid' (i.e. those who've decided to believe their TM indoctrination). The more indoctrination a TMer has, the more tenaciously they hold onto the newly acquired conditioning. I'm guessing you've had quite a bit! ;-) But the latter is common is diluted and/or distorted traditions, like the TMO. Your attempt to characterize the TMO has nothing to do with the reality of the actual direct *experience* of the Absolute by countless numbers of TMers via TM. And you haven't a clue what that really is since you've never *experienced* the actual properly instructed practice of TM yourself. Again, you are operating on a false assumption, that TMers, via TM, experience the absolute. I don't accept that that is in fact the case in all or most TMers, although I do accept that many believe they are experiencing pure consciousness, the home of all the laws of nature, the unified field, the vacuum state, etc., etc. etc. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:01 AM, do.rflex wrote: I go by *experience*, not TMO propaganda. TM instruction is TMO propaganda. You cannot be instructed in authentic TM without being indoctrinated in their set of expectations. Heck, they'll even try to convince you they've proved it with science!
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually it would still possess meaning with or without a direct experience of the absolute. What's important to get is just because someone tells you something represents the absolute does not mean it is the absolute. But the latter is common is diluted and/or distorted traditions, like the TMO. From here, arguing about meaning and distorted traditions or attaching any meaning to any tradition is completely laughable: just another way to deny the emptiful meaninglessness of one's a priori Death and attempt to cling to self-importance, judgment, specialness -- a complete waste of time and misuse of discrimination, IOW. OTOH, in retrospect I see TM was an excellent anti-addiction addiction for us as it showed us how to transcend, or die, again and again: how to effortlessly give up control, again and again, until we were finally ready to face and surrender to the Big One. And you're still misusing it's too. :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:05 AM, Angela Mailander wrote: How can you possibly know what others experience or do not experience? I understand your point and I agree that expectation muddies the waters of meditation, but that doesn't mean that some, eventually, swan-like, get through that muddy water and come out clean. By observation, experience and by gaining perspective through other techniques/methods or simply by detailed instruction in the first place. One of the most obvious deficits in TM practice is torpor, and then, falling asleep. If you know what causes this and when you observe (for example) that the technique for relieving torpor is not part of TM practice, you can gain an understanding as to why it occurs so commonly. That's just one example, you could go through other parts of the practice and draw similar conclusions from direct experience. Another way, is through authoritative testimony, the experiences of others in the practical tradition itself. Particularly in regard to mental mantra practice, it's very detailed in what the stages are, what their signs are and what the pitfalls are. You've read Padoux, so I'm sure you have an idea of what I mean.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:19 AM, Rory Goff wrote: From here, arguing about meaning and distorted traditions or attaching any meaning to any tradition is completely laughable: In this context, tradition means practical tradition not merely passing on of customs or some habitual cookie-cutter teaching.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:19 AM, Rory Goff wrote: And you're still misusing it's too. I've always been possessive of my pronouns.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
Vaj wrote: Another way, is through authoritative testimony, the experiences of others in the practical tradition itself. Particularly in regard to mental mantra practice, it's very detailed in what the stages are, what their signs are and what the pitfalls are. Kaivalya, the ultimate goal of yoga, means freedom and isolation. Only the minds born of meditation are free from karmic impressions. — Patanjali, Kaivalya Pada, Sutra 7
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:19 AM, Rory Goff wrote: From here, arguing about meaning and distorted traditions or attaching any meaning to any tradition is completely laughable: In this context, tradition means practical tradition not merely passing on of customs or some habitual cookie-cutter teaching. In THIS context, any tradition, even a practical one is baloney. We don't die by acquiring more and more, we die by ourselves, naked and Alone.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:19 AM, Rory Goff wrote: And you're still misusing it's too. I've always been possessive of my pronouns. It's a false possession: a misunderstanding to mistake a possession for a contraction. Not unlike one's attachment to tradition.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
Vaj wrote: In this context, tradition means practical tradition not merely passing on of customs or some habitual cookie-cutter teaching. So, let's figure out what tradition we are talking about. Guru Dev was a disciple of Swami Krishananda of Sringeri. Guru Dev was a tantric guru who practiced the Sri Vidya. But, according to some respondents, Guru Dev has no connection to any mantras at all, including those of Srividya, and least of all to any TM bija-mantras! Yet, the Sri Yantra at Sringeri, the tantric mnemonic device par excelence, which reposes behind the image of the Tri Pura Sundari, at the Sringeri Matha, contains at least two TM bija-mantras inscribed thereon. So, lets go figure. Read more: Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental From: Willytex Date: Mon, Sep 5 2005 10:40 pm Subject: The Sri Yantra at Sringeri http://tinyurl.com/yo7kvz
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's a false possession: a misunderstanding to mistake a possession for a contraction. And equally, as in your case, to mistake a contraction for a possession. Not unlike one's attachment to tradition.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:42 AM, Rory Goff wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:19 AM, Rory Goff wrote: From here, arguing about meaning and distorted traditions or attaching any meaning to any tradition is completely laughable: In this context, tradition means practical tradition not merely passing on of customs or some habitual cookie-cutter teaching. In THIS context, any tradition, even a practical one is baloney. We don't die by acquiring more and more, we die by ourselves, naked and Alone. I don't know about you, but I plan on dying with my clothes ON (unless of course I happen to be in the shower at the time or making love)!
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
R: In THIS context, any tradition, even a practical one is baloney. We don't die by acquiring more and more, we die by ourselves, naked and Alone. Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know about you, but I plan on dying with my clothes ON (unless of course I happen to be in the shower at the time or making love)! It is natural to trivialize and joke about it, in our attempt to avoid and deny it. Just dropping a friendly reminder that until we accept its presence wholeheartedly as Here and Now, our spiritual journey has not truly even begun.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:05 AM, Angela Mailander wrote: How can you possibly know what others experience or do not experience? I understand your point and I agree that expectation muddies the waters of meditation, but that doesn't mean that some, eventually, swan-like, get through that muddy water and come out clean. By observation, experience and by gaining perspective through other techniques/methods or simply by detailed instruction in the first place. One of the most obvious deficits in TM practice is torpor, and then, falling asleep. If you know what causes this and when you observe (for example) that the technique for relieving torpor is not part of TM practice, you can gain an understanding as to why it occurs so commonly. That's just one example, you could go through other parts of the practice and draw similar conclusions from direct experience. Another way, is through authoritative testimony, the experiences of others in the practical tradition itself. Particularly in regard to mental mantra practice, it's very detailed in what the stages are, what their signs are and what the pitfalls are. You've read Padoux, so I'm sure you have an idea of what I mean. Poppycock-- has no relevance at all in the REAL world. To each his own, but don't expect to get here from there. Enrobed and glittering ignorance, or maybe somber and serious ignorance, is all you will be left with.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: R: In THIS context, any tradition, even a practical one is baloney. We don't die by acquiring more and more, we die by ourselves, naked and Alone. Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: I don't know about you, but I plan on dying with my clothes ON (unless of course I happen to be in the shower at the time or making love)! It is natural to trivialize and joke about it, in our attempt to avoid and deny it. Just dropping a friendly reminder that until we accept its presence wholeheartedly as Here and Now, our spiritual journey has not truly even begun. As we see from this world's great religions, lifetimes can be spent deciding what to wear, what color, drape of fabric, what shoes to put on, how to step, in what order progress will be made, what to think, how others may have explained it in the dusty past, before the very first step of the spiritual journey is made. What a waste of time, and a waste of life.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
I do have an idea of what you mean, and not just cause I've read Padoux. I had the personal, daily attention of my teacher for six years. I was only six years old when I learned, and no expectations whatsoever were ever mentioned. It didn't occur to me to ask, at six years old, why I should do what some adult was telling me to do, and, six years later, I was on my own and just continued to meditate as instructed. I've often thought that the lack of personal attention from a really experienced teacher was a problem for some TM-ers. When I had my whole family initiated into TM, I'd been meditating for 25 years and it was perfectly clear to me that my teachers were, on the whole, inexperienced in both meditation and in teaching it. But the miracle is that it nevertheless has worked for many in my opinion. I also believe that it is possible to know whether someone else is really getting it or not. My first week in China, I escaped from campus without interpreters and went to find a local temple to kind of pay my respects to the local gods. A monk was sitting at the door, doing calligraphy. We nodded a brief hello to one another, and I went in, found a dark corner, and settled down for a long meditation About an hour later, I heard a clear and distinct voice with a Brooklyn accent say something about the exact state I was in and the exact experience I was having, adding a useful hint. I turned around, but saw no one. I settled back in, and the same voice said, What's the matter, you don't think someone who looks like me should sound like this? It was the monk. Of course we became friends. Turns out he was a Chinese American born and raised in Brooklyn, New York, but had come to China to become a monk in his teens. So, it is possible, and I find I often know what someone else is thinking. But there are literally millions of TMers. You can't have done enough of a study to determine what percentage of them are getting it. a Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:05 AM, Angela Mailander wrote: How can you possibly know what others experience or do not experience? I understand your point and I agree that expectation muddies the waters of meditation, but that doesn't mean that some, eventually, swan-like, get through that muddy water and come out clean. By observation, experience and by gaining perspective through other techniques/methods or simply by detailed instruction in the first place. One of the most obvious deficits in TM practice is torpor, and then, falling asleep. If you know what causes this and when you observe (for example) that the technique for relieving torpor is not part of TM practice, you can gain an understanding as to why it occurs so commonly. That's just one example, you could go through other parts of the practice and draw similar conclusions from direct experience. Another way, is through authoritative testimony, the experiences of others in the practical tradition itself. Particularly in regard to mental mantra practice, it's very detailed in what the stages are, what their signs are and what the pitfalls are. You've read Padoux, so I'm sure you have an idea of what I mean. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As we see from this world's great religions, lifetimes can be spent deciding what to wear, what color, drape of fabric, what shoes to put on, how to step, in what order progress will be made, what to think, how others may have explained it in the dusty past, before the very first step of the spiritual journey is made. What a waste of time, and a waste of life. Certainly looks like it, doesn't it? Life is wasted on the living. *lol* But there's one thing I've learned here: the living can not really see the dead, and the dead cannot really speak to the living. To us the so-called living are like ghosts -- i.e., the dead who refuse to acknowledge they are dead, because of some attachment they still hold to earth, some overriding past-memory or future-desire keeping them out of Here and Now. We can speak to them, but they refuse to hear. The dead can only be truly heard by the dead, or, on rare occasions, by someone on their death-bed. Then they can see us, and we can serve as a welcoming-committee, as was my pleasure with you :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
But there are literally millions of TMers. At the DC center back in '85 I had a campaign to call the 10,000 mediators who had been initiated in DC. The results were that only a tiny group, no more than a few hundred had continued the practice and most of them had gone on to the sidhis. The lone meditator continuing their practice without continued contact with the belief system is a TM urban legend. Would anyone like to guess how many people practice TM in the world? I think we would have to start with the numbers of sidhas. I am guessing that a higher percentage of that group is likely to as least still do TM. Perhaps someone in Fairfield can guess the percentages of the community that still does TM. I would guess that the number of people in the world doing TM regularly is no more more than 30,000 and perhaps a lot less. But maybe someone else has a better way of guessing. The movement was very uninterested in the results of the DC campaign. I have never seen any interest in finding out how many people still practice either the sidhis or TM. I think I can guess why. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Angela Mailander [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I do have an idea of what you mean, and not just cause I've read Padoux. I had the personal, daily attention of my teacher for six years. I was only six years old when I learned, and no expectations whatsoever were ever mentioned. It didn't occur to me to ask, at six years old, why I should do what some adult was telling me to do, and, six years later, I was on my own and just continued to meditate as instructed. I've often thought that the lack of personal attention from a really experienced teacher was a problem for some TM-ers. When I had my whole family initiated into TM, I'd been meditating for 25 years and it was perfectly clear to me that my teachers were, on the whole, inexperienced in both meditation and in teaching it. But the miracle is that it nevertheless has worked for many in my opinion. I also believe that it is possible to know whether someone else is really getting it or not. My first week in China, I escaped from campus without interpreters and went to find a local temple to kind of pay my respects to the local gods. A monk was sitting at the door, doing calligraphy. We nodded a brief hello to one another, and I went in, found a dark corner, and settled down for a long meditation About an hour later, I heard a clear and distinct voice with a Brooklyn accent say something about the exact state I was in and the exact experience I was having, adding a useful hint. I turned around, but saw no one. I settled back in, and the same voice said, What's the matter, you don't think someone who looks like me should sound like this? It was the monk. Of course we became friends. Turns out he was a Chinese American born and raised in Brooklyn, New York, but had come to China to become a monk in his teens. So, it is possible, and I find I often know what someone else is thinking. But there are literally millions of TMers. You can't have done enough of a study to determine what percentage of them are getting it. a Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:05 AM, Angela Mailander wrote: How can you possibly know what others experience or do not experience? I understand your point and I agree that expectation muddies the waters of meditation, but that doesn't mean that some, eventually, swan-like, get through that muddy water and come out clean. By observation, experience and by gaining perspective through other techniques/methods or simply by detailed instruction in the first place. One of the most obvious deficits in TM practice is torpor, and then, falling asleep. If you know what causes this and when you observe (for example) that the technique for relieving torpor is not part of TM practice, you can gain an understanding as to why it occurs so commonly. That's just one example, you could go through other parts of the practice and draw similar conclusions from direct experience. Another way, is through authoritative testimony, the experiences of others in the practical tradition itself. Particularly in regard to mental mantra practice, it's very detailed in what the stages are, what their signs are and what the pitfalls are. You've read Padoux, so I'm sure you have an idea of what I mean. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
On Nov 19, 2007, at 12:14 PM, Angela Mailander wrote: So, it is possible, and I find I often know what someone else is thinking. But there are literally millions of TMers. You can't have done enough of a study to determine what percentage of them are getting it. a Honestly, I don't think many are left, at least compared to the numbers that started. It's pretty easy to spot some of the more prevalent meditational issues (like falling asleep), esp. if you're a domer. It's only more recently we've actually had number of TM-sidhi people being investigated by experienced yogins for meditational disorders and damage. The reports I've heard are that it's a prevalent problem in long-term TM-sidhi people, as it tends to cause imbalanced awakenings and a host of issues. How prevalent? It's hard to say.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 19, 2007, at 12:14 PM, Angela Mailander wrote: So, it is possible, and I find I often know what someone else is thinking. But there are literally millions of TMers. You can't have done enough of a study to determine what percentage of them are getting it. a Honestly, I don't think many are left, at least compared to the numbers that started. It's pretty easy to spot some of the more prevalent meditational issues (like falling asleep), esp. if you're a domer. It's only more recently we've actually had number of TM-sidhi people being investigated by experienced yogins for meditational disorders and damage. The reports I've heard are that it's a prevalent problem in long-term TM-sidhi people, as it tends to cause imbalanced awakenings and a host of issues. How prevalent? It's hard to say. Vaj, can you enlarge on this a bit. Who is this we doing the investigating? I ask because I'm really not sure if the TMSP is doing me any good anymore, I don't like doing long progs either, I used to but now it makes me feel shite, really thick-headed, tired and angry, nothing easy or relaxing about it. It's easy to just go along with the TMO claims about unstressing but I've been losing confidence in the whole TM charade for a while now, maybe that's the cause of it, if you don't believe in the supporting philosophy perhaps you lose the ability (or will) to transcend.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: As we see from this world's great religions, lifetimes can be spent deciding what to wear, what color, drape of fabric, what shoes to put on, how to step, in what order progress will be made, what to think, how others may have explained it in the dusty past, before the very first step of the spiritual journey is made. What a waste of time, and a waste of life. Certainly looks like it, doesn't it? Life is wasted on the living. *lol* But there's one thing I've learned here: the living can not really see the dead, and the dead cannot really speak to the living. To us the so-called living are like ghosts -- i.e., the dead who refuse to acknowledge they are dead, because of some attachment they still hold to earth, some overriding past-memory or future-desire keeping them out of Here and Now. We can speak to them, but they refuse to hear. The dead can only be truly heard by the dead, or, on rare occasions, by someone on their death-bed. Then they can see us, and we can serve as a welcoming-committee, as was my pleasure with you :-) The oddest thing about your welcoming commitee role with me was that I had an expectation of it for about twenty years. I would infrequently run across individuals who I thought would fulfill this role for me, but not yet ready myself, my death did not occur until we met. Hey, someone's gotta do it, right? It is an interesting sequence to go through leading up to such a point of ultimate dissolution; that I was continually facing down or plunging headlong into the destruction of my boundaries, learning how far to go, what to retain and what to lose, until the final threads of my fake identity dissolved altogether-- buh bye...
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Nov 19, 2007, at 12:14 PM, Angela Mailander wrote: So, it is possible, and I find I often know what someone else is thinking. But there are literally millions of TMers. You can't have done enough of a study to determine what percentage of them are getting it. a Honestly, I don't think many are left, at least compared to the numbers that started. It's pretty easy to spot some of the more prevalent meditational issues (like falling asleep), esp. if you're a domer. It's only more recently we've actually had number of TM-sidhi people being investigated by experienced yogins for meditational disorders and damage. The reports I've heard are that it's a prevalent problem in long-term TM-sidhi people, as it tends to cause imbalanced awakenings and a host of issues. How prevalent? It's hard to say. Vaj, can you enlarge on this a bit. Who is this we doing the investigating? I ask because I'm really not sure if the TMSP is doing me any good anymore, I don't like doing long progs either, I used to but now it makes me feel shite, really thick-headed, tired and angry, nothing easy or relaxing about it. It's easy to just go along with the TMO claims about unstressing but I've been losing confidence in the whole TM charade for a while now, maybe that's the cause of it, if you don't believe in the supporting philosophy perhaps you lose the ability (or will) to transcend. Speaking from personal experience, what TM and especially the more powerful TMSP does, is continue to set up the bodymind or nervous system (choose your term...) to experience enlightenment. After awhile, the bodymind becomes so attuned to experiencing this that it is almost ready to sustain it. But, the false identity and the couldas, wouldas, and shouldas keep wanting to intrude and get into strong conflict with this natural state. So if you want to give yourself a break and perhaps integrate into activity a little more, lay off the siddhis altogether, and just do TM 2x a day-- maybe some regular exercise too, just to keep the runaway intellect from trying to always intercede and control things. It will balance you out and perhaps give you a little bit more insight into where your attention needs to be for your personal issues to be resolved.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
On Nov 19, 2007, at 12:57 PM, hugheshugo wrote: Vaj, can you enlarge on this a bit. Who is this we doing the investigating? The people I was referring to was a yogini and lineage-holder named Joan Harrigan and her guru from the Saraswati order, Swami Chandrasekharanand of Rishikesh. They are some of the few, possibly the only people in the west who are doing the difficult work of helping people who had imbalanced or dead-end kundalini awakenings resolve their issues. Two of the most famous ex-TMers that I know of who have utilized and praised their services are Earl Kaplan and Dr. John Doulliard. Doulliard was at one time a movement big wig, and an expert in marma therapy. Here's what his wife said (emphasis mine): I've known Swamiji and Joan for two years now and can honestly say that they are the real deal. In this day and age of a hundred guru wanna be's offering everything under the sun it's rare if not next to impossible to find sincere, authentic, and truly competent spiritual teachers with only your progress and best interest in mind. Their retreats are truly life changing and transformational and their comments on your personal history are worth the price of admission alone. I've had many blessings in my life with six beautiful and healthy kids and a wonderful husband but if one is a true spiritual seeker there isn't any outward or physical blessing that can pacify the soul's yearning like the discovery and experience of the real spiritual progress that they offer. --Ginger Doulliard, Boulder, Colorado Wife and mother They are out of Tennessee. If you have any questions whatsoever, I'd recommend any TM or TMSP practitioner to read Joan's _Kundalini Vidya_ or to contact these people for a consult. I ask because I'm really not sure if the TMSP is doing me any good anymore, I don't like doing long progs either, I used to but now it makes me feel shite, really thick-headed, tired and angry, nothing easy or relaxing about it. These are not unusual symptoms for someone with an imbalanced arising, but let these people consult with you, they are extremely detailed, authentic and have helped a lot of damaged people. What many people do not realize is that certain gurus can utilize unbalanced awakenings to their advantage. One of these ways is to get the students to cultivate siddhis.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 19, 2007, at 12:57 PM, hugheshugo wrote: Vaj, can you enlarge on this a bit. Who is this we doing the investigating? The people I was referring to was a yogini and lineage-holder named Joan Harrigan and her guru from the Saraswati order, Swami Chandrasekharanand of Rishikesh. They are some of the few, possibly the only people in the west who are doing the difficult work of helping people who had imbalanced or dead-end kundalini awakenings resolve their issues. Two of the most famous ex-TMers that I know of who have utilized and praised their services are Earl Kaplan and Dr. John Doulliard. Doulliard was at one time a movement big wig, and an expert in marma therapy. Here's what his wife said (emphasis mine): I've known Swamiji and Joan for two years now and can honestly say that they are the real deal. In this day and age of a hundred guru wanna be's offering everything under the sun it's rare if not next to impossible to find sincere, authentic, and truly competent spiritual teachers with only your progress and best interest in mind. Their retreats are truly life changing and transformational and their comments on your personal history are worth the price of admission alone. I've had many blessings in my life with six beautiful and healthy kids and a wonderful husband but if one is a true spiritual seeker there isn't any outward or physical blessing that can pacify the soul's yearning like the discovery and experience of the real spiritual progress that they offer. --Ginger Doulliard, Boulder, Colorado Wife and mother They are out of Tennessee. If you have any questions whatsoever, I'd recommend any TM or TMSP practitioner to read Joan's _Kundalini Vidya_ or to contact these people for a consult. I ask because I'm really not sure if the TMSP is doing me any good anymore, I don't like doing long progs either, I used to but now it makes me feel shite, really thick-headed, tired and angry, nothing easy or relaxing about it. These are not unusual symptoms for someone with an imbalanced arising, but let these people consult with you, they are extremely detailed, authentic and have helped a lot of damaged people. What many people do not realize is that certain gurus can utilize unbalanced awakenings to their advantage. One of these ways is to get the students to cultivate siddhis. Thanks Vaj, very interesting. I shall look into it.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
I ask because I'm really not sure if the TMSP is doing me any good anymore, I don't like doing long progs either, I used to but now it makes me feel shite, really thick-headed, tired and angry, nothing easy or relaxing about it. These are not unusual symptoms for someone with an imbalanced arising, but let these people consult with you, they are extremely detailed, authentic and have helped a lot of damaged people. Just as an alternative, non spiritual viewpoint... Perhaps you don't need any more passive relaxation. There may be nothing wrong with you that needs fixing. Your symptoms also match dissociation caused by too much passive relaxation. When I stopped meditating about 19 years ago it felt a little weird for a few days and I sometimes had to take an afternoon nap since I was used to resting then. But in less than a week I felt great and have never desired the state again. I found that dissociation caused me to be a little detached from my feelings in a way that muffled them a bit. I enjoy the clarity non meditation has brought. I don't think meditation is a bad thing for everyone, but I also don't think it is a good thing for everyone. Unless you are really committed to the belief in gaining enlightenment through meditation, you might just want to find out for yourself if meditation really serves your current needs. Not meditating changes you and surprises you as much as meditating does. I enjoyed meditating for the 15 years I practiced. I never missed one and rounded for about 3-4 years total. But my life as a non meditator is satisfying enough that I would not consider going back to the meditation influenced functioning. I am writing this just to let you know that there is a satisfying life after TM. When people get into TM heavily I think there can be a belief that non meditators are living less full lives. For me that has not been the case, it has been the opposite. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 19, 2007, at 12:57 PM, hugheshugo wrote: Vaj, can you enlarge on this a bit. Who is this we doing the investigating? The people I was referring to was a yogini and lineage-holder named Joan Harrigan and her guru from the Saraswati order, Swami Chandrasekharanand of Rishikesh. They are some of the few, possibly the only people in the west who are doing the difficult work of helping people who had imbalanced or dead-end kundalini awakenings resolve their issues. Two of the most famous ex-TMers that I know of who have utilized and praised their services are Earl Kaplan and Dr. John Doulliard. Doulliard was at one time a movement big wig, and an expert in marma therapy. Here's what his wife said (emphasis mine): I've known Swamiji and Joan for two years now and can honestly say that they are the real deal. In this day and age of a hundred guru wanna be's offering everything under the sun it's rare if not next to impossible to find sincere, authentic, and truly competent spiritual teachers with only your progress and best interest in mind. Their retreats are truly life changing and transformational and their comments on your personal history are worth the price of admission alone. I've had many blessings in my life with six beautiful and healthy kids and a wonderful husband but if one is a true spiritual seeker there isn't any outward or physical blessing that can pacify the soul's yearning like the discovery and experience of the real spiritual progress that they offer. --Ginger Doulliard, Boulder, Colorado Wife and mother They are out of Tennessee. If you have any questions whatsoever, I'd recommend any TM or TMSP practitioner to read Joan's _Kundalini Vidya_ or to contact these people for a consult. I ask because I'm really not sure if the TMSP is doing me any good anymore, I don't like doing long progs either, I used to but now it makes me feel shite, really thick-headed, tired and angry, nothing easy or relaxing about it. These are not unusual symptoms for someone with an imbalanced arising, but let these people consult with you, they are extremely detailed, authentic and have helped a lot of damaged people. What many people do not realize is that certain gurus can utilize unbalanced awakenings to their advantage. One of these ways is to get the students to cultivate siddhis.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Nov 19, 2007, at 12:14 PM, Angela Mailander wrote: So, it is possible, and I find I often know what someone else is thinking. But there are literally millions of TMers. You can't have done enough of a study to determine what percentage of them are getting it. a Honestly, I don't think many are left, at least compared to the numbers that started. It's pretty easy to spot some of the more prevalent meditational issues (like falling asleep), esp. if you're a domer. It's only more recently we've actually had number of TM-sidhi people being investigated by experienced yogins for meditational disorders and damage. The reports I've heard are that it's a prevalent problem in long-term TM-sidhi people, as it tends to cause imbalanced awakenings and a host of issues. How prevalent? It's hard to say. Vaj, can you enlarge on this a bit. Who is this we doing the investigating? I ask because I'm really not sure if the TMSP is doing me any good anymore, I don't like doing long progs either, I used to but now it makes me feel shite, really thick-headed, tired and angry, nothing easy or relaxing about it. It's easy to just go along with the TMO claims about unstressing but I've been losing confidence in the whole TM charade for a while now, maybe that's the cause of it, if you don't believe in the supporting philosophy perhaps you lose the ability (or will) to transcend. Speaking from personal experience, what TM and especially the more powerful TMSP does, is continue to set up the bodymind or nervous system (choose your term...) to experience enlightenment. After awhile, the bodymind becomes so attuned to experiencing this that it is almost ready to sustain it. But, the false identity and the couldas, wouldas, and shouldas keep wanting to intrude and get into strong conflict with this natural state. So if you want to give yourself a break and perhaps integrate into activity a little more, lay off the siddhis altogether, and just do TM 2x a day-- maybe some regular exercise too, just to keep the runaway intellect from trying to always intercede and control things. It will balance you out and perhaps give you a little bit more insight into where your attention needs to be for your personal issues to be resolved. Thanks for the advice Jim I know what your saying, but I'm not sure my intellect is trying to control anyhting when I meditate. It feels like the state of consciousness I get into is putting to much strain on me, it's not that I strain it's just like my mind doesn't want to be there at all! It's mentally and physically unpleasant. You are right though I shall give the sids a miss for a bit, I'd pretty much done that anyway. I wonder how many stop TM because of things like this. I think Vaj is right in that this awakening can go wrong and there is no expertise in the TMO to help you cope with it, not that I've ever heard of anyway, it's just do more asanas usually.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Nov 19, 2007, at 12:14 PM, Angela Mailander wrote: So, it is possible, and I find I often know what someone else is thinking. But there are literally millions of TMers. You can't have done enough of a study to determine what percentage of them are getting it. a Honestly, I don't think many are left, at least compared to the numbers that started. It's pretty easy to spot some of the more prevalent meditational issues (like falling asleep), esp. if you're a domer. It's only more recently we've actually had number of TM-sidhi people being investigated by experienced yogins for meditational disorders and damage. The reports I've heard are that it's a prevalent problem in long-term TM-sidhi people, as it tends to cause imbalanced awakenings and a host of issues. How prevalent? It's hard to say. Vaj, can you enlarge on this a bit. Who is this we doing the investigating? I ask because I'm really not sure if the TMSP is doing me any good anymore, I don't like doing long progs either, I used to but now it makes me feel shite, really thick-headed, tired and angry, nothing easy or relaxing about it. It's easy to just go along with the TMO claims about unstressing but I've been losing confidence in the whole TM charade for a while now, maybe that's the cause of it, if you don't believe in the supporting philosophy perhaps you lose the ability (or will) to transcend. Speaking from personal experience, what TM and especially the more powerful TMSP does, is continue to set up the bodymind or nervous system (choose your term...) to experience enlightenment. After awhile, the bodymind becomes so attuned to experiencing this that it is almost ready to sustain it. But, the false identity and the couldas, wouldas, and shouldas keep wanting to intrude and get into strong conflict with this natural state. So if you want to give yourself a break and perhaps integrate into activity a little more, lay off the siddhis altogether, and just do TM 2x a day-- maybe some regular exercise too, just to keep the runaway intellect from trying to always intercede and control things. It will balance you out and perhaps give you a little bit more insight into where your attention needs to be for your personal issues to be resolved. Thanks for the advice Jim I know what your saying, but I'm not sure my intellect is trying to control anyhting when I meditate. It feels like the state of consciousness I get into is putting to much strain on me, it's not that I strain it's just like my mind doesn't want to be there at all! It's mentally and physically unpleasant. You are right though I shall give the sids a miss for a bit, I'd pretty much done that anyway. Sounds like it could just be too much meditation at this point and not enough integration-- My experience was as I progressed, TM and TMSP became incredibly efficient and powerful. Like you are doing anyway, just lay off the TMSP for awhile, or permanently if you want to. *Get into your body more*. I wonder how many stop TM because of things like this. I think Vaj is right in that this awakening can go wrong and there is no expertise in the TMO to help you cope with it, not that I've ever heard of anyway, it's just do more asanas usually. Where there is a will, there is a way.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But there are literally millions of TMers. Would anyone like to guess how many people practice TM in the world? I think we would have to start with the numbers of sidhas. I am guessing that a higher percentage of that group is likely to as least still do TM. Perhaps someone in Fairfield can guess the percentages of the community that still does TM. I would guess that the number of people in the world doing TM regularly is no more more than 30,000 and perhaps a lot less. I'd be very surprised if there were more than 9,990 practicing TM regularly worldwide. I would have made it an even 10,000, but it appears that Bevan has eaten at least ten of them, so I'm gonna stick with 9,990.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I ask because I'm really not sure if the TMSP is doing me any good anymore, I don't like doing long progs either, I used to but now it makes me feel shite, really thick-headed, tired and angry, nothing easy or relaxing about it. These are not unusual symptoms for someone with an imbalanced arising, but let these people consult with you, they are extremely detailed, authentic and have helped a lot of damaged people. Just as an alternative, non spiritual viewpoint... Perhaps you don't need any more passive relaxation. There may be nothing wrong with you that needs fixing. Your symptoms also match dissociation caused by too much passive relaxation. When I stopped meditating about 19 years ago it felt a little weird for a few days and I sometimes had to take an afternoon nap since I was used to resting then. But in less than a week I felt great and have never desired the state again. I found that dissociation caused me to be a little detached from my feelings in a way that muffled them a bit. I enjoy the clarity non meditation has brought. I don't think meditation is a bad thing for everyone, but I also don't think it is a good thing for everyone. Unless you are really committed to the belief in gaining enlightenment through meditation, you might just want to find out for yourself if meditation really serves your current needs. Not meditating changes you and surprises you as much as meditating does. I enjoyed meditating for the 15 years I practiced. I never missed one and rounded for about 3-4 years total. But my life as a non meditator is satisfying enough that I would not consider going back to the meditation influenced functioning. I am writing this just to let you know that there is a satisfying life after TM. When people get into TM heavily I think there can be a belief that non meditators are living less full lives. For me that has not been the case, it has been the opposite. Thanks Curtis. You're right, it is easy to get into the feeling that life would be less rich if I quit this habit. It's also been so long I can't imagine life without it. What do you do with the extra hours ;-) A part of me would love to get on a meditating trip that I thought was working and re-capture the love of it I had years ago, which is why I will check out Vaj's recommendation, but the inner voice has been telling me it's over for a while now. I've learnt new things which are powerful in a different way. There is more we can do and be without all this unstressing etc and once you have a new technique that does what you were originally looking for the drive to solve problems via TM disappears. The only purpose of meditation for me now is gaining enlightenment, which seemed like a big deal once, not so sure now.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: But there are literally millions of TMers. Would anyone like to guess how many people practice TM in the world? I think we would have to start with the numbers of sidhas. I am guessing that a higher percentage of that group is likely to as least still do TM. Perhaps someone in Fairfield can guess the percentages of the community that still does TM. I would guess that the number of people in the world doing TM regularly is no more more than 30,000 and perhaps a lot less. I'd be very surprised if there were more than 9,990 practicing TM regularly worldwide. I'd put the number at around 200 thousand globally, doing TM every day, 2x per day. I would have made it an even 10,000, but it appears that Bevan has eaten at least ten of them, so I'm gonna stick with 9,990.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
---I don't get it. In reply to the statement that if people waste their lives watching the NFL and drinking beer, Rory said This could be just what the doctor ordered. Sounds like somebody wants to have it both ways. In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff rorygoff@ wrote: R: In THIS context, any tradition, even a practical one is baloney. We don't die by acquiring more and more, we die by ourselves, naked and Alone. Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: I don't know about you, but I plan on dying with my clothes ON (unless of course I happen to be in the shower at the time or making love)! It is natural to trivialize and joke about it, in our attempt to avoid and deny it. Just dropping a friendly reminder that until we accept its presence wholeheartedly as Here and Now, our spiritual journey has not truly even begun. As we see from this world's great religions, lifetimes can be spent deciding what to wear, what color, drape of fabric, what shoes to put on, how to step, in what order progress will be made, what to think, how others may have explained it in the dusty past, before the very first step of the spiritual journey is made. What a waste of time, and a waste of life.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:01 AM, do.rflex wrote: I go by *experience*, not TMO propaganda. TM instruction is TMO propaganda. You cannot be instructed in authentic TM without being indoctrinated in their set of expectations. Heck, they'll even try to convince you they've proved it with science! Nonsense. It's entirely possible to separate the indoctrination from experience of the technique. Not only is it possible, it isn't possible *not* to separate them. It's not possible to indoctrinate someone into the experience of the technique. That experience is what it is, independently of any thoughts, scientific or otherwise, *about* the experience. Descriptions of the experience cannot generate the experience because, by definition, such descriptions, no matter how precise, are always inaccurate and inadequate. The most indoctrination and descriptions of the experience can accomplish is to lead you to learn the technique and inspire you to keep practicing. [to Angela:) One of the most obvious deficits in TM practice is torpor, and then, falling asleep. If you know what causes this and when you observe (for example) that the technique for relieving torpor is not part of TM practice, you can gain an understanding as to why it occurs so commonly. This is circular reasoning. You're defining torpor and sleep as a deficit. If they aren't a deficit but part of a natural cycle, then obviously there's no basis to have a technique for relieving them; to relieve them would interfere with that cycle and would therefore *itself* be a deficit. Another way, is through authoritative testimony, the experiences of others in the practical tradition itself. Particularly in regard to mental mantra practice, it's very detailed in what the stages are, what their signs are and what the pitfalls are. But the practical tradition itself of which you speak is not TM, therefore the testimony relating to it is irrelevant with regard to TM. My overall point is that you never, in my observation, actually deal with TM on its own terms. You're always making arguments to the effect that because Tradition A says X and MMY says Y, therefore MMY must be wrong. But that's no more valid as an argument than a TMer saying that because Tradition A says X and MMY says Y, therefore Tradition A must be wrong. You sound like a Catholic priest insisting Martin Luther was wrong because he didn't teach Catholic dogma, or a Republican insisting a Democrat is wrong because the Democrat advocates X while Reagan advocated Y. That isn't an argument against Luther's teaching or against Democratic policy that would convince anybody who wasn't already a believing Catholic or a devout Republican. That MMY's teaching is different from that of standard Yogic tradition is not only a given, it's MMY's raison d'etre, just as a teaching that was different from Catholic dogma was Luther's raison d'etre. If you can't show why MMY's or Luther's teachings are wrong *on their own terms*, you haven't said a damn thing worth hearing.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, matrixmonitor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ---I don't get it. In reply to the statement that if people waste their lives watching the NFL and drinking beer, Rory said This could be just what the doctor ordered. Sounds like somebody wants to have it both ways. Short answer, yes. And no problem with that. Mine was a personal opinion, whereas Rory's was an observation. I should have clarified that *for me*, the way the major religions approach enlightenment is like someone who says they want to go bungee jumping, and instead of doing so, spends all of their time taking measurements, studying techniques, asking other's opinions, issuing pronouncements on what it will feel like when the jump is made, instead of just jumping.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:01 AM, do.rflex wrote: I go by *experience*, not TMO propaganda. TM instruction is TMO propaganda. You cannot be instructed in authentic TM without being indoctrinated in their set of expectations. Heck, they'll even try to convince you they've proved it with science! Nonsense. It's entirely possible to separate the indoctrination from experience of the technique. Not only is it possible, it isn't possible *not* to separate them. given that we're talking about the results of TM, shouldn't this topic title be changed to Sweet Home, alamabana?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
Sometimes is good to take rest of everything... including meditation. To do program regularly is sort of attachment. Enlightenment is everywhere. I did not find that doing long program is certain path to enlightenment. From time to time you can do it. But don't bother if you don't. Mediation should give experience of joy and bliss… if does not... just don't do it and don't feel guilty. Zoran 2007/11/19, hugheshugo [EMAIL PROTECTED]: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Nov 19, 2007, at 12:14 PM, Angela Mailander wrote: So, it is possible, and I find I often know what someone else is thinking. But there are literally millions of TMers. You can't have done enough of a study to determine what percentage of them are getting it. a Honestly, I don't think many are left, at least compared to the numbers that started. It's pretty easy to spot some of the more prevalent meditational issues (like falling asleep), esp. if you're a domer. It's only more recently we've actually had number of TM-sidhi people being investigated by experienced yogins for meditational disorders and damage. The reports I've heard are that it's a prevalent problem in long-term TM-sidhi people, as it tends to cause imbalanced awakenings and a host of issues. How prevalent? It's hard to say. Vaj, can you enlarge on this a bit. Who is this we doing the investigating? I ask because I'm really not sure if the TMSP is doing me any good anymore, I don't like doing long progs either, I used to but now it makes me feel shite, really thick-headed, tired and angry, nothing easy or relaxing about it. It's easy to just go along with the TMO claims about unstressing but I've been losing confidence in the whole TM charade for a while now, maybe that's the cause of it, if you don't believe in the supporting philosophy perhaps you lose the ability (or will) to transcend. Speaking from personal experience, what TM and especially the more powerful TMSP does, is continue to set up the bodymind or nervous system (choose your term...) to experience enlightenment. After awhile, the bodymind becomes so attuned to experiencing this that it is almost ready to sustain it. But, the false identity and the couldas, wouldas, and shouldas keep wanting to intrude and get into strong conflict with this natural state. So if you want to give yourself a break and perhaps integrate into activity a little more, lay off the siddhis altogether, and just do TM 2x a day-- maybe some regular exercise too, just to keep the runaway intellect from trying to always intercede and control things. It will balance you out and perhaps give you a little bit more insight into where your attention needs to be for your personal issues to be resolved. Thanks for the advice Jim I know what your saying, but I'm not sure my intellect is trying to control anyhting when I meditate. It feels like the state of consciousness I get into is putting to much strain on me, it's not that I strain it's just like my mind doesn't want to be there at all! It's mentally and physically unpleasant. You are right though I shall give the sids a miss for a bit, I'd pretty much done that anyway. I wonder how many stop TM because of things like this. I think Vaj is right in that this awakening can go wrong and there is no expertise in the TMO to help you cope with it, not that I've ever heard of anyway, it's just do more asanas usually.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, matrixmonitor matrixmonitor@ wrote: ---I don't get it. In reply to the statement that if people waste their lives watching the NFL and drinking beer, Rory said This could be just what the doctor ordered. Sounds like somebody wants to have it both ways. Short answer, yes. And no problem with that. Mine was a personal opinion, whereas Rory's was an observation. I should have clarified that *for me*, the way the major religions approach enlightenment is like someone who says they want to go bungee jumping, and instead of doing so, spends all of their time taking measurements, studying techniques, asking other's opinions, issuing pronouncements on what it will feel like when the jump is made, instead of just jumping. Agreed. It is not likely that watching NFL and drinking beer, and *not doing the inner work* will lead to enlightenment. Nor is it at all likely that any spiritual practice -- liturgic, yogic or otherwise -- that *avoids the inner work* will lead to enlightenment. From my point of view, that's absolutely OK. It is also a waste of time *if* one thinks one is going to get enlightenment by pursuing some means that allows them to distract themselves from embracing the reality of their own death Here and Now. And that's perfectly OK too.