[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-21 Thread curtisdeltablues
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, george_deforest
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Curtis DeltaBlue wrote:
  
  When I stopped meditating about 19 years ago it felt a little weird
  for a few days and I sometimes had to take an afternoon nap 
  since I was used to resting then. But in less than a week 
  I felt great and have never desired the state again. 
  
  I found that dissociation caused me to be a little detached 
  from my feelings in a way that muffled them a bit. 
  I enjoy the clarity non meditation has brought.
 
 is this preference for unmuffled emotion the real me 
 or just ego clinging to my hut, my hut??
 
 i ask this with no judgement of your choice;
 in fact i am at the same place, a crossroads,
 and am really asking the question of myself


Excellent question and thanks for phrasing it as a choice George. 
Since I am not selling my state of consciousness as an ultimate
anything, for me it does come down to preference.  This of course
reflects my relativistic way of thinking about consciousness.  On the
other hand it also reflects my respect for the fact that lots of
meditation does in fact change a person in profound ways.

In my world terms like ego and hut are lost.  My ego is strong enough
not to get pushed over by forceful people, and small enough not to
make me try to impose myself on others. I am not living in any sort of
hut!  That judgment comes from a world of pre-suppositions that I have
dropped.  I am hanging out with Lucy in her sky of diamonds just as
richly as when I was way into TM.

When I stopped meditating I noticed changes, but not huge ones as I
had expected.  My description of emotions and thoughts being slightly
muffled is subtle.  I would have forgotten all about it but recently I
tried meditating a few times after 18 years and it did make me feel as
if I was stepping back into more dissociation from my experience.  It
felt like overkill of that quality, although being conscious of the
aspect of your self that is just awareness seems valuable.  I guess I
feel all loaded up in that department and I don't desire more of it. 
That was the funny thing about quitting for me.  I never desired to go
back into the balance of consciousness that meditating regularly
brought me to.  Not an aversion exactly, just a feeling of not wanting
to spend any more time in that state.  For me the belief in its value
was key to how desirable it was.  Once I lost faith that MMY was an
expert, and going on my own more innocent experience, I concluded that
MMY was making a big fuss over something of small but not ultimate value.

OTOH I do understand that this style of functioning is just my choice
and is not superior in any way to meditation influenced functioning. 
But for me I know that meditation brings too much of a good thing for
me now.  I think of it (and I know this will sound pejorative) kind of
like a weed high.  Interesting but not a state I seek right now.  I
don't even know why.  Flying is a state that I have a bit more of an
aversion to.  I don't know what that was all about.  It was very
powerful for me for 10 years but I have zero desire to experience that
state again.  I think MMY is out to lunch on that state as valuable. 
  It is not just more of what meditation brings for me.  It is a
completely altered state that is like the acid trips of my youth.  I'm
glad I had them but I don't need to go there again.  

Posting here has made me re-think my relationship to growth of
consciousness.  It has been really satisfying to find people who
respect my choices while I can reciprocate with respect for people who
choose the qualities that meditation brings.  It is a profound tool of
awareness.  I don't believe that it is developing in people more than
just a preferred style of functioning, but I certainly understand its
charms.  I think I was posting my POV on all this to say, life is so
rich in all its forms that if meditation isn't working for you, don't
think you will be thrown into a fiery pit! Life without meditation is
fantastic, for me.  But I am well aware that my POV on all this is no
more than my personal values and choices being lived and enjoyed.

I hope that answers your question and thanks for even asking George. 
It was interesting for me to try to articulate where I am at with this . 











[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-20 Thread nablusoss1008
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 SNIPPING some bargage...

 They are part of a natural cycle of ignorance: awake - asleep - 
dream  
 - awake -sleep - dream -etc. but samadhi and the fourth (turiya)  
 are beyond this cycle. Didn't you ever see the woodcut of the mystic  
 breaking through to the spheres? The intent is to break out of 
this  
 chain of ignorance, no? Therefore, anything that ties you back into  
 that cycle, is to be countermined -- the quicker the better. 

I haven't slept in meditation for 25 years. As usual Vaj is talking 
about something he has no knowledge. In other words a fraud.



[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-20 Thread shempmcgurk
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
 
  SNIPPING some bargage...
 
  They are part of a natural cycle of ignorance: awake - asleep - 
 dream  
  - awake -sleep - dream -etc. but samadhi and the fourth 
(turiya)  
  are beyond this cycle. Didn't you ever see the woodcut of the 
mystic  
  breaking through to the spheres? The intent is to break out of 
 this  
  chain of ignorance, no? Therefore, anything that ties you back 
into  
  that cycle, is to be countermined -- the quicker the better. 
 
 I haven't slept in meditation for 25 years. As usual Vaj is talking 
 about something he has no knowledge. In other words a fraud.


I haven't NOT slept in meditation for 25 years...




Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-20 Thread Vaj


On Nov 20, 2007, at 8:15 AM, nablusoss1008 wrote:


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 SNIPPING some bargage...

 They are part of a natural cycle of ignorance: awake - asleep -
dream
 - awake -sleep - dream -etc. but samadhi and the fourth (turiya)
 are beyond this cycle. Didn't you ever see the woodcut of the mystic
 breaking through to the spheres? The intent is to break out of
this
 chain of ignorance, no? Therefore, anything that ties you back into
 that cycle, is to be countermined -- the quicker the better.

I haven't slept in meditation for 25 years. As usual Vaj is talking
about something he has no knowledge. In other words a fraud.



It's not all about you Nab, it's about the many people who  
(reportedly) sleep in the domes.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-20 Thread nablusoss1008
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Nov 20, 2007, at 8:15 AM, nablusoss1008 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  
   SNIPPING some bargage...
 
   They are part of a natural cycle of ignorance: awake - asleep -
  dream
   - awake -sleep - dream -etc. but samadhi and the fourth 
(turiya)
   are beyond this cycle. Didn't you ever see the woodcut of the 
mystic
   breaking through to the spheres? The intent is to break out 
of
  this
   chain of ignorance, no? Therefore, anything that ties you back 
into
   that cycle, is to be countermined -- the quicker the better.
 
  I haven't slept in meditation for 25 years. As usual Vaj is 
talking
  about something he has no knowledge. In other words a fraud.
 
 
 It's not all about you Nab, it's about the many people who  
 (reportedly) sleep in the domes.

You are making negative and general comments using grand language to 
make people think you know what you are talking about based on 
something you have heard (reportedly) from the Domes ? 
You are worse than I thought. 




[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-20 Thread Richard J. Williams
Curtis wrote:
 When I stopped meditating about 19 years ago it felt 
 a little weird for a few days and I sometimes had to 
 take an afternoon nap since I was used to resting then.
 But in less than a week I felt great and have never
 desired the state again.  I found that dissociation 
 caused me to be a little detached from my feelings in 
 a way that muffled them a bit. I enjoy the clarity non 
 meditation has brought.  
 
You stopped TM when you lost your innocence and began 
the practice of Guru Yoga, as pointed out by Mr. McGurk. 
This probably happened about the time that you decided 
to become a teacher of TM. In reality, you have never 
stopped meditation, for the simple fact that you never 
began meditation. 

In fact, you were born into a state of meditation, but 
as you grew older you became dissassoiated with your 
real state - your mind became slowly identified with the 
material world of name and form, until it became totally 
overshadowed by your material nature.

When you started TM you probably transcended for a few 
moments - this would be called a flashback to your 
previous state of divine innocence - but then you stopped 
transcending and somehow became involved in Guru Yoga, 
following the Marshy. Your spiritual life would have 
probably evolved over time if you had remained in that 
innocent state. Instead you must have developed a hankering 
for intellectual knowledge which then began to overshadow 
your enlightened state.

With time you became more and more enmeshed in the 
material world, thus losing your contact with the 
transcendent. Now you only see through a glass darkly; 
your previous clear state has now become almost lost 
due to your being caught up in the material world. You've 
lost the abilty and the opportunity to burn up your karmic
accumulations. Your only hope now is to find a true 
spiritual teacher.  



[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-20 Thread nablusoss1008
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  
   SNIPPING some bargage...
  
   They are part of a natural cycle of ignorance: awake - asleep -
 
  dream  
   - awake -sleep - dream -etc. but samadhi and the fourth 
 (turiya)  
   are beyond this cycle. Didn't you ever see the woodcut of the 
 mystic  
   breaking through to the spheres? The intent is to break out 
of 
  this  
   chain of ignorance, no? Therefore, anything that ties you back 
 into  
   that cycle, is to be countermined -- the quicker the better. 
  
  I haven't slept in meditation for 25 years. As usual Vaj is 
talking 
  about something he has no knowledge. In other words a fraud.
 
 
 I haven't NOT slept in meditation for 25 years...

What are you doing during the night when you are supposed to get 
enough sleep ? Whenever there is a fellow asleep during group-
programme it will always be the rajasic types who just can't go to 
bed in time. 




Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-20 Thread Vaj


On Nov 20, 2007, at 10:33 AM, hugheshugo wrote:


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 On Nov 20, 2007, at 8:15 AM, nablusoss1008 wrote:

  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  
   SNIPPING some bargage...
 
   They are part of a natural cycle of ignorance: awake - asleep -
  dream
   - awake -sleep - dream -etc. but samadhi and the fourth
(turiya)
   are beyond this cycle. Didn't you ever see the woodcut of the
mystic
   breaking through to the spheres? The intent is to break out of
  this
   chain of ignorance, no? Therefore, anything that ties you back
into
   that cycle, is to be countermined -- the quicker the better.
 
  I haven't slept in meditation for 25 years. As usual Vaj is
talking
  about something he has no knowledge. In other words a fraud.


 It's not all about you Nab, it's about the many people who
 (reportedly) sleep in the domes.


May I report that's a definite


The only reason I mention the domes is because it is occurring in the  
movement's top meditation spot and something that's been witnessed  
and mentioned by numerous observers. If it's happening there, it's  
easy to see that it's probably happening to solitary practitioners as  
well.




Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-20 Thread Angela Mailander
Richard, you talk like a true believer on the basis of dogma.  You cannot know 
what Deltablues state of consciousness is through knowing him via emails. I 
don't remember who it was that claimed yoga was exclusively Indian, and my 
question was is the realization that Purusha is distinct from Prakriti 
tantamount to the realization that There is a void outside existence which, if 
entered into, englobes itself and becomes a womb? The obvious answer is, 
yes.  That statement comes from William Blake who practiced no technique and 
had no indoctrination on consciousness etc.  He lived in the late eighteenth 
century in an intellectual milieu that had invented empiricism.  And yet he 
understood states of consciousness to the point of clear descriptions of 
epistemology in each of those states--which he could not have done without 
experience.  

Any of us can talk a good shtick about enlightenment.  Anyone can learn that 
language.  Delta refuses to talk that way, but that doesn't mean he is doomed 
unless he gets a spiritual master.  He may be a master. Remember the Gita's 
answer to the question about how does an enlightened man sit, talk, and walk?  
The answer was there's no way you can recognize him on the basis of these 
things. a

Richard J. Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   
Curtis wrote:
  When I stopped meditating about 19 years ago it felt 
  a little weird for a few days and I sometimes had to 
  take an afternoon nap since I was used to resting then.
  But in less than a week I felt great and have never
  desired the state again.  I found that dissociation 
  caused me to be a little detached from my feelings in 
  a way that muffled them a bit. I enjoy the clarity non 
  meditation has brought.  
  
 You stopped TM when you lost your innocence and began 
 the practice of Guru Yoga, as pointed out by Mr. McGurk. 
 This probably happened about the time that you decided 
 to become a teacher of TM. In reality, you have never 
 stopped meditation, for the simple fact that you never 
 began meditation. 
 
 In fact, you were born into a state of meditation, but 
 as you grew older you became dissassoiated with your 
 real state - your mind became slowly identified with the 
 material world of name and form, until it became totally 
 overshadowed by your material nature.
 
 When you started TM you probably transcended for a few 
 moments - this would be called a flashback to your 
 previous state of divine innocence - but then you stopped 
 transcending and somehow became involved in Guru Yoga, 
 following the Marshy. Your spiritual life would have 
 probably evolved over time if you had remained in that 
 innocent state. Instead you must have developed a hankering 
 for intellectual knowledge which then began to overshadow 
 your enlightened state.
 
 With time you became more and more enmeshed in the 
 material world, thus losing your contact with the 
 transcendent. Now you only see through a glass darkly; 
 your previous clear state has now become almost lost 
 due to your being caught up in the material world. You've 
 lost the abilty and the opportunity to burn up your karmic
 accumulations. Your only hope now is to find a true 
 spiritual teacher.  
 
 
 
   

 Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-20 Thread Rory Goff

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ 
 wrote:
  I haven't slept in meditation for 25 years. As usual Vaj is talking 
  about something he has no knowledge. In other words a fraud.
 
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 I haven't NOT slept in meditation for 25 years...


I haven't meditated for 25 years...



[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-20 Thread hugheshugo
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Nov 20, 2007, at 8:15 AM, nablusoss1008 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  
   SNIPPING some bargage...
 
   They are part of a natural cycle of ignorance: awake - asleep -
  dream
   - awake -sleep - dream -etc. but samadhi and the fourth 
(turiya)
   are beyond this cycle. Didn't you ever see the woodcut of the 
mystic
   breaking through to the spheres? The intent is to break out of
  this
   chain of ignorance, no? Therefore, anything that ties you back 
into
   that cycle, is to be countermined -- the quicker the better.
 
  I haven't slept in meditation for 25 years. As usual Vaj is 
talking
  about something he has no knowledge. In other words a fraud.
 
 
 It's not all about you Nab, it's about the many people who  
 (reportedly) sleep in the domes.


May I report that's a definite



[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-20 Thread Richard J. Williams
Vaj wrote:
 They have to hear the current spiel, like it or not. 
 But you do bring up an interesting point, because I  
 do believe if we look closely we'll see an attempt 
 to connect the gap between thoughts, the sandhi, 
 to a higher state of consciousness (and furthermore 
 link that to all sorts of fantastic razzle-dazzle, 
 from quantum physics to whether or not your house has  
 an entrance on the south side). This is the crucial 
 indoctrination.  
 
This is a perfect example of why I think Vaj hasn't
heard a TM introductory lecture. Is there any fantastic 
razzle-dazzle, quantum physics, or discussion of whether 
or not your house has an entrance on the south side 
included in any introductory TM lecture? I think not.



[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-20 Thread hugheshugo
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Vaj wrote:
  They have to hear the current spiel, like it or not. 
  But you do bring up an interesting point, because I  
  do believe if we look closely we'll see an attempt 
  to connect the gap between thoughts, the sandhi, 
  to a higher state of consciousness (and furthermore 
  link that to all sorts of fantastic razzle-dazzle, 
  from quantum physics to whether or not your house has  
  an entrance on the south side). This is the crucial 
  indoctrination.  
  
 This is a perfect example of why I think Vaj hasn't
 heard a TM introductory lecture. Is there any fantastic 
 razzle-dazzle, quantum physics, or discussion of whether 
 or not your house has an entrance on the south side 
 included in any introductory TM lecture? I think not.


No it isn't included in the intro lecture, deliberately too. Wouldn't 
want to scare of the punters. You have to wait til day two of 
checking before you hear all that stuff.

Of course with David lynch all over the news everyone can see what 
it's all about. Which is a good thing in one way as it's more honest. 
But on the other hand it's not such a good thing because everyone can 
see what it's all about.



Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-20 Thread Vaj


On Nov 20, 2007, at 11:13 AM, hugheshugo wrote:


No it isn't included in the intro lecture, deliberately too. Wouldn't
want to scare of the punters. You have to wait til day two of
checking before you hear all that stuff.



The important thing isn't when it's mentioned these days, but that it  
is mentioned -- and that it is required part of instruction to hear  
these things.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-20 Thread Richard J. Williams
  This is a perfect example of why I think Vaj hasn't
  heard a TM introductory lecture. Is there any fantastic 
  razzle-dazzle, quantum physics, or discussion of whether 
  or not your house has an entrance on the south side 
  included in any introductory TM lecture? I think not.
 
Richard Hughes wrote: 
 No it isn't included in the intro lecture, deliberately 
 too. Wouldn't want to scare of the punters. You have to 
 wait til day two of checking before you hear all that stuff.
 
Is there any fantastic razzle-dazzle, quantum physics, or 
discussion of whether or not your house has an entrance on 
the south side included in any day two introductory TM 
lecture? I think not.

 Of course with David lynch all over the news everyone can 
 see what it's all about. Which is a good thing in one way 
 as it's more honest.
 
The vast majority of people who ever tried TM probably never
even heard of David Lynch, and most people never have any 
other contact with the TMO after they begin practice.

 But on the other hand it's not such a good thing because 
 everyone can see what it's all about.

TM isn't about anything, much less whether or not your house 
has an entrance on the south side - that stuff is left for 
the sycophants like you, Sir.




[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-20 Thread Richard J. Williams
  No it isn't included in the intro lecture, deliberately 
  too. Wouldn't want to scare of the punters. You have to 
  wait til day two of checking before you hear all that 
  stuff.
 
Vaj wrote: 
 The important thing isn't when it's mentioned these days, 
 but that it is mentioned -- and that it is required part 
 of instruction to hear these things.

No, the important thing is that you said it was included 
in the introductory TM lecture and Mr. Hughes said it was 
included in the day two TM lecture. You two attempted to 
mislead and prevaricate. 



Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-20 Thread Vaj


On Nov 20, 2007, at 12:03 PM, Richard J. Williams wrote:


  No it isn't included in the intro lecture, deliberately
  too. Wouldn't want to scare of the punters. You have to
  wait til day two of checking before you hear all that
  stuff.
 
Vaj wrote:
 The important thing isn't when it's mentioned these days,
 but that it is mentioned -- and that it is required part
 of instruction to hear these things.

No, the important thing is that you said it was included
in the introductory TM lecture and Mr. Hughes said it was
included in the day two TM lecture. You two attempted to
mislead and prevaricate.



Moot point, since it's a required piece of instruction.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-20 Thread Richard J. Williams
  No, the important thing is that you said it was included
  in the introductory TM lecture and Mr. Hughes said it was
  included in the day two TM lecture. You two attempted to
  mislead and prevaricate.
 
Vaj wrote:
 Moot point, since it's a required piece of instruction.

So, you have not attended an introductory TM lecture - I 
thought so. The vast majority of people who attend an
introductory TM lecture never hear another thing about
the TMO or TM. Many of them continue to practice and many 
more do not, but there is no requirement to hear anything 
about quantum physics or south facing entrances in any 
introductory lecture in order to learn how to practice TM
- that's my point. You and Mr. Hughes were mistaken and
you tried to prevaricate.



[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-20 Thread curtisdeltablues
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Curtis wrote:
  When I stopped meditating about 19 years ago it felt 
  a little weird for a few days and I sometimes had to 
  take an afternoon nap since I was used to resting then.
  But in less than a week I felt great and have never
  desired the state again.  I found that dissociation 
  caused me to be a little detached from my feelings in 
  a way that muffled them a bit. I enjoy the clarity non 
  meditation has brought.  
  
 You stopped TM when you lost your innocence and began 
 the practice of Guru Yoga, as pointed out by Mr. McGurk. 
 This probably happened about the time that you decided 
 to become a teacher of TM. In reality, you have never 
 stopped meditation, for the simple fact that you never 
 began meditation. 

No Richard I was a good little innocent meditator till the end.  Sorry
to disappoint you.  Becoming a teacher gives you a lot more
understanding of the practice as well as a lot more experience in it.
 The Guru Yoga concept it a fabrication that is outside MMY's
teaching.  I had all the predictable experiences that MMY's discusses
when I was involved.  Your attempt to appear as if you could know such
a thing about me without the use of your senses is not your strongest
cognitive move.

 
 In fact, you were born into a state of meditation, but 
 as you grew older you became dissassoiated with your 
 real state - your mind became slowly identified with the 
 material world of name and form, until it became totally 
 overshadowed by your material nature.

I read those books too.

 
 When you started TM you probably transcended for a few 
 moments - this would be called a flashback to your 
 previous state of divine innocence - but then you stopped 
 transcending and somehow became involved in Guru Yoga, 
 following the Marshy. Your spiritual life would have 
 probably evolved over time if you had remained in that 
 innocent state. Instead you must have developed a hankering 
 for intellectual knowledge which then began to overshadow 
 your enlightened state.

Yeah, hankering for intellectual knowledge is the enemy of
innocence.  It fills your mind with all that stuff.  Ignorance it
bliss huh?

 
 With time you became more and more enmeshed in the 
 material world, thus losing your contact with the 
 transcendent. Now you only see through a glass darkly; 
 your previous clear state has now become almost lost 
 due to your being caught up in the material world. You've 
 lost the abilty and the opportunity to burn up your karmic
 accumulations. Your only hope now is to find a true 
 spiritual teacher.


Like you have, no doubt?  If I was more like you and saw things your
way I would be better in every way!  Caught up in the material
world, I guess you mean living life.  Yeah, that is a problem for me.

News flash: I don't have original sin and I don't have karmic debt. 
These concepts were made up by ancient people and they are optional. 
You may have a use for joining them in these beliefs.  I don't.  I am
fine just the way I am and am not off anyone else's path.  I am
enjoying my own.  You enjoy yours and I'll enjoy mine, and no throwing
sand in the sandbox.  OK?













[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-20 Thread curtisdeltablues
Angela,

Thanks for sticking up for the idea that a person may leave TM and
there may not be something terribly wrong with him!  Telling people
that I chose to leave TM voluntarily after having good experiences
with it and enjoying it for years is an interesting mirror on people.
I learn a lot about a person depending on how they react. 

Of course when I was into TM if a person left I would go through the
same predictable moves of making the person wrong somehow.  I think it
is a natural reaction that comes when we hear someone has cancer or
something terrible happens.  We want to distance ourself from this
person so we can feel that this tragedy wouldn't happen to us,and that
often includes blaming the person a bit.  Oh that person was just
too(fill in the blank). 

One nice thing about posting here is that I have found a few people
still on a spiritual path who get my decision.  Likewise I have
spent some time rehabbing my own perspective on people who continue on
spiritual paths.  I am just as prone to the make wrong move about
other people's decisions.  Getting to know someone as a more complete
person is part of the journey for me. It involves not seeing them in a
one dimensional way, as a spiritual person, but just as a version of
folks like me!

The specific point that Shemp and Richard bring up that somehow I
wasn't doing the practice properly or had gotten too caught up in the
guru thing is one of the oddest versions of make wrong.  It involves
a few hidden assumptions about the program that are very odd.  Despite
my reporting that I loved the TM experience, trying to make it seem as
if I could have rounded for years incorrectly is strange.

What they don't get is that the experiences we have in meditation and
the states they produce are very tied to a set of beliefs and
assumptions about the value of those experiences.  Especially if you
are facile with language and use a lot of Sanskrit terms to describe
your experiences, you can get very locked in to a POV.  It is
inconceivable to think in different terms, underneath the assumptions
contained in the language.  Once you accept enlightenment as a
given, you are already hip deep.  But I no longer accept the concept
of enlightenment as a given.  And I don't accept that the experiences
of different ways of functioning caused by meditation is positive for
everyone.  

The idea that the fulltiime people were doing something wrong is
common for parttime people in the movement.  Also the idea among
fulltime people that parttimers are not moving as fast is pretty
entrenched.  The bazaar idea that people following MMY's instructions
directly are off the program is an odd notion that is unshakable for
Shemp.  I and others have hit my head against this wall more than once.  

But here is my truth about how I left.  I enjoyed TM and its
experiences until the day I decided that it no longer served me. 
After I left I spent some time revealing to the press that the
brochure version of TM practice was not the whole story, and that the
movement was deceptive about it's inner beliefs. It seemed important
to me that people be allowed to make informed decisions about TM
before getting involved.  This basically alienated all my TM friends
which I totally understand.  The Internet provides such a complete
understanding for those who seek it, that I no longer felt that I had
a contribution to make concerning TM. With TM's entry price so high it
is a moot point now.  People getting into TM now know or should know
all they need.  

Posting on this board has been a personal mission to re-connect with
people on a spiritual path.  Of course my name is and probably should
be mud for TM fundies, but they don't post here.  Now I feel
positive about people making different choices than I am concerning
spirituality and this has been my growth.  I respect people who
continue to research their consciousness with techniques and think it
is important for humans to pursue, but not for me.

So Kumbaya Angela.  You have immersed yourself in many cultures and
POVs, so it doesn't surprise me that you get me.  I am not a master
of anything or enlightened in the way that MMY describes.  It is the
ability to deeply understand many POVs from people from different
cultures, internal and external that is my concept of enlightenment
now.  It is an intellectual choice of perspective about people.  It
starts with an assumption that people have good reasons for acting and
thinking as they do.  It just takes some time to uncover them.

Thanks for the kind intentions.

Richard (meaning well I assume): 

You've 
  lost the abilty and the opportunity to burn up your karmic
  accumulations. Your only hope now is to find a true 
  spiritual teacher.  

You gotta love it!




 



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Angela Mailander
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Richard, you talk like a true believer on the basis of dogma.  You
cannot know what Deltablues state of consciousness is through knowing
him 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-20 Thread hugheshugo
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Nov 20, 2007, at 11:13 AM, hugheshugo wrote:
 
  No it isn't included in the intro lecture, deliberately too. 
Wouldn't
  want to scare of the punters. You have to wait til day two of
  checking before you hear all that stuff.
 
 
 The important thing isn't when it's mentioned these days, but that 
it  
 is mentioned -- and that it is required part of instruction to 
hear  
 these things.


I wasn't arguing against your point there Vaj it was directed more at 
Richard.

I actually agree with you. The context of TM teaching is very 
important and the siddhis even more so. I would like to know how much 
any of it would work without the belief system supporting it.

I'm annoyed that I had any contact with the teaching by reading 
before I learnt because I can't be sure which is the power of 
suggestion and which is innocence. My early experiences of 
enlightened states fit MMYs descriptions perfectly, but I had read 
them first!

It wouldn't bother most people I'm sure but it does get to me as I 
know how easy it is for the mind to come up with detailed fantasies 
in an instant, for instance under hypnosis. Or when I've done LSD 
I've had experiences where the power of suggestion is so immediate it 
seems like synchronicity. The mind is a powerful thing for sure.



[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-20 Thread Richard J. Williams
 I don't remember who it was that claimed yoga was 
 exclusively Indian, 

According to Eliade, writing in the definitive book on yoga, 
Yoga is unique to India. Eliade is a famous author, an expert 
on Yoga, Shamanism, the history of religion.

Work cited:

'Yoga: Immortality and Freedom'
by Mircea Eliade
Princeton U. Press,
http://tinyurl.com/2bt8sn

 and my question was is the realization that Purusha is 
 distinct from Prakriti tantamount to the realization 
 that There is a void outside existence which, if entered 
 into, englobes itself and becomes a womb? 

There's no void out there, Angela, that's just a misnomer.
According to Nagarjuna, the state of Nirvana is devoid of 
own being - that's different from there being an actual void
somewhere in the universe. The womb, according to Vasubandhu,
is the storehouse of conciousness - from the conciousness only 
school of Vijnanavada: there is only conciousness; nothing
outside; nothing out there. All experience is conditioned
by conciousness - there is no other.

 The obvious answer is, yes.  That statement comes from 
 William Blake who practiced no technique and had no 
 indoctrination on consciousness etc.  He lived in the late 
 eighteenth century in an intellectual milieu that had 
 invented empiricism.  And yet he understood states of 
 consciousness to the point of clear descriptions of 
 epistemology in each of those states--which he could not 
 have done without experience. 

Maybe so.

 Any of us can talk a good shtick about enlightenment.

No, not anyone: from what I've read, Lon P. Stacks is almost 
totally ignorant of enlightenment:

I thought I'd been strapped to the bed in preparation for 
Bevan to come in and impregnate me with a baby guru who 
would take Maharishi's place when he dropped the body. What 
I saw was Bevan over me, which was all delusion anyway. 
During the guided imagery, Bevan's face had turned into my 
father's face. (Bevan had been like a father figure to me.) 
The therapist interpreted this literally, that I had a real 
memory of seeing my father over me as he was raping me. 
- Lon P. Stacks

Read more:

Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental
From: Willytex
Date: Sun, Oct 29 2000 7:06 pm
Subject: Stacks and Knapp
http://tinyurl.com/3d2hfj



[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-20 Thread Richard J. Williams
Curtis wrote: 
 I don't have original sin and I don't have karmic debt. 
 
This is some really bad karma: 

http://www.suggestibility.org/

The TM failed predictions of the age of enlightenment 
and etc. haven't been piling up for as long.  I'm sure 
that no matter what happens, events will be rationalized 
in favor of Mahesh. - Joe Kellet 

Read more:

Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental
From: Mongo
Date: Mon, Apr 22 2002 7:19 pm
Subject: My Fears
http://tinyurl.com/3yy9j4



[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-20 Thread boo_lives
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   This is a perfect example of why I think Vaj hasn't
   heard a TM introductory lecture. Is there any fantastic 
   razzle-dazzle, quantum physics, or discussion of whether 
   or not your house has an entrance on the south side 
   included in any introductory TM lecture? I think not.

The only people allowed to give intro lectures or teach TM are
recertified teachers - all others have been banned from teaching which
I think includes everyone in this discussion thread most of whom seem
to be talking from their memories of teaching in the 60s or 70s.  

At the recertification course, TM teachers spent 100% of their time
learning how to open and operate Enlightenment Centers in shopping
malls.  These centers were supposed to not only sell TM but also
massages, ayurvedic herbs, MSV houses, TM-sidhis and a whole variety
of vedic products and courses associated with INVINCIBILITY for the
nation.  The lobbies of the Enlightenment Center had a picture of the
world's tallest phallus, I mean building, that the TMO wants to build.
 MMY planned on opening a few thousands of these Centers immediately.
 Of course only a few did open and I think they've all closed by now.
 But MMY's plan was for these new centers to provide the whole crazy
TMO schbang to the general population, not just TM.





[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-20 Thread Richard J. Williams
Curtis wrote:  
 You gotta love it!

The proof that you were never on the program lies in the 
fact that you thought you were on a program. There's no 
such thing as TM, Curtis - that's just a silly acronym, 
made up to communicate between dilettantes. 

In reality, there is no path, no gate to go through, and 
no meditation technique at all. Everyone meditates because 
the meditation simply means to think things over, and 
hardly a person could be found that doesn't think and 
pause once or twice a day to take stock of their own 
mental contents. 

And we are all transcending, even without a technique. 

What gets me is that people get so dissociated into a 
state in which some part of a person's life becomes 
separated from the rest of their personality making it 
seem to function independently. They even begin to think 
that they are teachers of TM.

Then they often think that they've stopped meditating, 
ergo, stopped thinking. Obviously you haven't done that. 
But, how could you tell the truth all that time when you 
were a teacher of TM, when you were brainwashed from 
birth? It's just impossible.

I'm taking control. Are you? 

A very concise introduction to the BITE model as it 
applies to newsgroups with a view to developing a 
preliminary model for a twelve-step recovery plan.
 
Read more:

Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental
From: Willytex
Date: Sun, Apr 22 2001 10:34 pm
Subject: Reality BITE
http://tinyurl.com/3c2fne



Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-20 Thread Angela Mailander
Thank you Curtis--the feeling is mutual.
You write:
 You have immersed yourself in many cultures and
 POVs, so it doesn't surprise me that you get me.  I am not a master
 of anything or enlightened in the way that MMY describes.  It is the
 ability to deeply understand many POVs from people from different
 cultures, internal and external that is my concept of enlightenment
 now.  It is an intellectual choice of perspective about people.  It
 starts with an assumption that people have good reasons for acting and
 thinking as they do.  It just takes some time to uncover them.

My take on it all is that we are biological entities incarnate on a planet and 
we have consciousness which is programmable into various mind states.  We are 
all programmed.  It is unavoidable.  Even if you grow up in the woods like the 
wild boy of Aviron, you are programmed.  In his case, the plants and animals 
and natural phenomena he lived with formed his programming.  There are 
programming styles we share with others.  We call it education, we call it 
brainwashing, we call it religion, we call it democrat or republican---I don't 
care what you call it, it's all programming.  And we can't navigate in a world 
without it.  There are also group programs.  We get different programming as 
Americans than we get as Chinese. 

I agree with Rory that death means the realization that all that programming is 
just that: programming.  But realizing that, I also realize that some 
programming is destructive, while other kinds of programming is not.  World 
leaders also understand that there is such a thing as collective programming.  
It begins when we salute the flag in Kindergarten.


curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   
Angela,
 
 Thanks for sticking up for the idea that a person may leave TM and
 there may not be something terribly wrong with him!  Telling people
 that I chose to leave TM voluntarily after having good experiences
 with it and enjoying it for years is an interesting mirror on people.
 I learn a lot about a person depending on how they react. 
 
 Of course when I was into TM if a person left I would go through the
 same predictable moves of making the person wrong somehow.  I think it
 is a natural reaction that comes when we hear someone has cancer or
 something terrible happens.  We want to distance ourself from this
 person so we can feel that this tragedy wouldn't happen to us,and that
 often includes blaming the person a bit.  Oh that person was just
 too(fill in the blank). 
 
 One nice thing about posting here is that I have found a few people
 still on a spiritual path who get my decision.  Likewise I have
 spent some time rehabbing my own perspective on people who continue on
 spiritual paths.  I am just as prone to the make wrong move about
 other people's decisions.  Getting to know someone as a more complete
 person is part of the journey for me. It involves not seeing them in a
 one dimensional way, as a spiritual person, but just as a version of
 folks like me!
 
 The specific point that Shemp and Richard bring up that somehow I
 wasn't doing the practice properly or had gotten too caught up in the
 guru thing is one of the oddest versions of make wrong.  It involves
 a few hidden assumptions about the program that are very odd.  Despite
 my reporting that I loved the TM experience, trying to make it seem as
 if I could have rounded for years incorrectly is strange.
 
 What they don't get is that the experiences we have in meditation and
 the states they produce are very tied to a set of beliefs and
 assumptions about the value of those experiences.  Especially if you
 are facile with language and use a lot of Sanskrit terms to describe
 your experiences, you can get very locked in to a POV.  It is
 inconceivable to think in different terms, underneath the assumptions
 contained in the language.  Once you accept enlightenment as a
 given, you are already hip deep.  But I no longer accept the concept
 of enlightenment as a given.  And I don't accept that the experiences
 of different ways of functioning caused by meditation is positive for
 everyone.  
 
 The idea that the fulltiime people were doing something wrong is
 common for parttime people in the movement.  Also the idea among
 fulltime people that parttimers are not moving as fast is pretty
 entrenched.  The bazaar idea that people following MMY's instructions
 directly are off the program is an odd notion that is unshakable for
 Shemp.  I and others have hit my head against this wall more than once.  
 
 But here is my truth about how I left.  I enjoyed TM and its
 experiences until the day I decided that it no longer served me. 
 After I left I spent some time revealing to the press that the
 brochure version of TM practice was not the whole story, and that the
 movement was deceptive about it's inner beliefs. It seemed important
 to me that people be allowed to make informed decisions about TM
 before getting 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-20 Thread curtisdeltablues
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Curtis wrote:  
  You gotta love it!
 
 The proof that you were never on the program lies in the
 fact that you thought you were on a program. There's no
 such thing as TM, Curtis - that's just a silly acronym,
 made up to communicate between dilettantes.

 In reality, there is no path, no gate to go through, and
 no meditation technique at all. Everyone meditates because
 the meditation simply means to think things over,

You must be aware that you are using what MMY refers to as
contemplation in place of his understanding of meditation?

and
 hardly a person could be found that doesn't think and
 pause once or twice a day to take stock of their own
 mental contents.

 And we are all transcending, even without a technique.


So why do I need a spiritual master?

 What gets me is that people get so dissociated into a
 state in which some part of a person's life becomes
 separated from the rest of their personality making it
 seem to function independently. They even begin to think
 that they are teachers of TM.

I was a teacher of TM.  I taught people how to do TM.  My action was 
not my identity, but it was part of my reality.


 Then they often think that they've stopped meditating,
 ergo, stopped thinking. Obviously you haven't done that.
 But, how could you tell the truth all that time when you
 were a teacher of TM, when you were brainwashed from
 birth? It's just impossible.

Well I agree that we accumulate a lot of beliefs unconsciously by 
growing up in a culture, teaching TM does involve a bit of conscious 
choice to make the practice seem more scientific than it actually is.  
It is a traditional practice marketed as a scientific one which
involves a bit of misdirection.


 I'm taking control. Are you?

Sure to the degree that I can become conscious of unconscious
processes and beliefs.


 A very concise introduction to the BITE model as it
 applies to newsgroups with a view to developing a
 preliminary model for a twelve-step recovery plan.


I am not seeking recovery from anything.  Unlike some who left TM I 
didn't feel as though it damaged me.  I felt like it made me function
in a way that I no longer value.  But I will check out the link.

OK, Steve Hassan's work, I am familiar with it, read his book and
talked with him on the phone.  His book was the first step for me to
recognize that there were other ways to explain what I was
experiencing in TM then the traditional model. It rocked my world.  

When I first left TM I used to assist in exit counseling cases for
people who had lost their ability to understand that their involvement
in a group was interfering with their ability to support themselves in
society. Steve and Pat Ryan were pioneers in helping create ways to
help restore choice for people whose lives have become unmanageable. 
Although it is a work in progress, they have taken Lifton and Singer's
insights and made them useful in the context of exit counseling.  I
spent a fair amount of time with Pat Ryan and consider him to be
brilliant and sincere in his desire to help people whose lives are not
working and whose families are in much pain.



 Read more:

 Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental
 From: Willytex
 Date: Sun, Apr 22 2001 10:34 pm
 Subject: Reality BITE
 http://tinyurl.com/3c2fne







[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-20 Thread shukra69
In areas where there is no Recert many are teaching with Maharishi's
approval. Not all the details about Enlightenment Centers are totally
accurate.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, boo_lives [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams
 willytex@ wrote:
 
This is a perfect example of why I think Vaj hasn't
heard a TM introductory lecture. Is there any fantastic 
razzle-dazzle, quantum physics, or discussion of whether 
or not your house has an entrance on the south side 
included in any introductory TM lecture? I think not.
 
 The only people allowed to give intro lectures or teach TM are
 recertified teachers - all others have been banned from teaching which
 I think includes everyone in this discussion thread most of whom seem
 to be talking from their memories of teaching in the 60s or 70s.  
 
 At the recertification course, TM teachers spent 100% of their time
 learning how to open and operate Enlightenment Centers in shopping
 malls.  These centers were supposed to not only sell TM but also
 massages, ayurvedic herbs, MSV houses, TM-sidhis and a whole variety
 of vedic products and courses associated with INVINCIBILITY for the
 nation.  The lobbies of the Enlightenment Center had a picture of the
 world's tallest phallus, I mean building, that the TMO wants to build.
  MMY planned on opening a few thousands of these Centers immediately.
  Of course only a few did open and I think they've all closed by now.
  But MMY's plan was for these new centers to provide the whole crazy
 TMO schbang to the general population, not just TM.





[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-20 Thread george_deforest
 Curtis DeltaBlue wrote:
 
 When I stopped meditating about 19 years ago it felt a little weird
 for a few days and I sometimes had to take an afternoon nap 
 since I was used to resting then. But in less than a week 
 I felt great and have never desired the state again. 
 
 I found that dissociation caused me to be a little detached 
 from my feelings in a way that muffled them a bit. 
 I enjoy the clarity non meditation has brought.

is this preference for unmuffled emotion the real me 
or just ego clinging to my hut, my hut??

i ask this with no judgement of your choice;
in fact i am at the same place, a crossroads,
and am really asking the question of myself



[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread do.rflex
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Nov 18, 2007, at 9:59 PM, emptybill wrote:
 
 
  Empty Bill:
 
 
 
  To parrot Vaj: Any real yogi familiar with Patanjali will be well  
  aware
 
 
 
  Patanjali does not discuss the topic of effort in yoga other than  
  to comment as follows:
 
 
  2.46: a steady (sthira) and comfortable (sukha) seat (asana) comes  
  about from –
 
 
  2.47: the loosening (shaitilya) of endeavour (prayatna) and a  
  consequent coinciding (samapatti) with the endless (ananta).
 
 
  Nor does he ever use the word alambana in the sense of a  
  cognitive object in any of the sutras.
 
 This displays a basic misunderstanding of sutra literature in general  
 and the prerequisites for yoga-darshana study, a la Patanjali. Keep  
 in mind Billy, a sutra requires a commentary to clarify it's purpose,  
 intent and practical application. This would typically mean the 20 or  
 so commentaries of the YS. But before these are even approached, one  
 must understand sankhya. In fact one of the titles for the YS is  
 Sankhya-pravachana, The Enunciation of Sankhya.
 
 The prerequisite for understanding of the YS is a thorough  
 comprehension sankhya via the Tattva-samasa-sutras.
 
 Once one has this understanding, one will also understand that an  
 alambana will be based on any of the 24 evolutes of matter, the  
 prakritis and the vikritis and that an alambana approaches union or  
 yoga via some method. No matter how easy and simple any of these  
 methods are, they do constitute some type of effort.
 
 If one skipped the Tattva-samasa-sutras, one may miss this  
 essential understanding.
 
 This really has little to do with Buddhist practice, but one can find  
 a similar dichotomy between causal vehicles of Buddhism which rely on  
 dualistic methods, all using some form of effort and nondual, truly  
 effortless practice. In Hindu systems, truly effortless practice  
 would be found in the Hindu nondual schools, like advaita vedanta or  
 other nondual schools. For a more direct comparison, one could  
 compare the nine-fold division of the Nyingmapa with the ninefold  
 division in the Bengali tantras, as they are roughly parallel.


All meaningless crap without a direct experience of the Absolute.






Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread Vaj


On Nov 19, 2007, at 8:13 AM, do.rflex wrote:


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 On Nov 18, 2007, at 9:59 PM, emptybill wrote:

 
  Empty Bill:
 
 
 
  To parrot Vaj: Any real yogi familiar with Patanjali will be well
  aware
 
 
 
  Patanjali does not discuss the topic of effort in yoga other  
than

  to comment as follows:
 
 
  2.46: a steady (sthira) and comfortable (sukha) seat (asana) comes
  about from –
 
 
  2.47: the loosening (shaitilya) of endeavour (prayatna) and a
  consequent coinciding (samapatti) with the endless (ananta).
 
 
  Nor does he ever use the word alambana in the sense of a
  cognitive object in any of the sutras.

 This displays a basic misunderstanding of sutra literature in  
general

 and the prerequisites for yoga-darshana study, a la Patanjali. Keep
 in mind Billy, a sutra requires a commentary to clarify it's  
purpose,
 intent and practical application. This would typically mean the  
20 or

 so commentaries of the YS. But before these are even approached, one
 must understand sankhya. In fact one of the titles for the YS is
 Sankhya-pravachana, The Enunciation of Sankhya.

 The prerequisite for understanding of the YS is a thorough
 comprehension sankhya via the Tattva-samasa-sutras.

 Once one has this understanding, one will also understand that an
 alambana will be based on any of the 24 evolutes of matter, the
 prakritis and the vikritis and that an alambana approaches  
union or

 yoga via some method. No matter how easy and simple any of these
 methods are, they do constitute some type of effort.

 If one skipped the Tattva-samasa-sutras, one may miss this
 essential understanding.

 This really has little to do with Buddhist practice, but one can  
find
 a similar dichotomy between causal vehicles of Buddhism which  
rely on

 dualistic methods, all using some form of effort and nondual, truly
 effortless practice. In Hindu systems, truly effortless practice
 would be found in the Hindu nondual schools, like advaita vedanta or
 other nondual schools. For a more direct comparison, one could
 compare the nine-fold division of the Nyingmapa with the ninefold
 division in the Bengali tantras, as they are roughly parallel.

All meaningless crap without a direct experience of the Absolute.



Actually it would still possess meaning with or without a direct  
experience of the absolute. What's important to get is just because  
someone tells you something represents the absolute does not mean it  
is the  absolute. But the latter is common is diluted and/or  
distorted traditions, like the TMO.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread do.rflex
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Nov 19, 2007, at 8:13 AM, do.rflex wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  
  
   On Nov 18, 2007, at 9:59 PM, emptybill wrote:
  
   
Empty Bill:
   
   
   
To parrot Vaj: Any real yogi familiar with Patanjali will be well
aware
   
   
   
Patanjali does not discuss the topic of effort in yoga other  
  than
to comment as follows:
   
   
2.46: a steady (sthira) and comfortable (sukha) seat (asana) comes
about from –
   
   
2.47: the loosening (shaitilya) of endeavour (prayatna) and a
consequent coinciding (samapatti) with the endless (ananta).
   
   
Nor does he ever use the word alambana in the sense of a
cognitive object in any of the sutras.
  
   This displays a basic misunderstanding of sutra literature in  
  general
   and the prerequisites for yoga-darshana study, a la Patanjali. Keep
   in mind Billy, a sutra requires a commentary to clarify it's  
  purpose,
   intent and practical application. This would typically mean the  
  20 or
   so commentaries of the YS. But before these are even approached, one
   must understand sankhya. In fact one of the titles for the YS is
   Sankhya-pravachana, The Enunciation of Sankhya.
  
   The prerequisite for understanding of the YS is a thorough
   comprehension sankhya via the Tattva-samasa-sutras.
  
   Once one has this understanding, one will also understand that an
   alambana will be based on any of the 24 evolutes of matter, the
   prakritis and the vikritis and that an alambana approaches  
  union or
   yoga via some method. No matter how easy and simple any of these
   methods are, they do constitute some type of effort.
  
   If one skipped the Tattva-samasa-sutras, one may miss this
   essential understanding.
  
   This really has little to do with Buddhist practice, but one can  
  find
   a similar dichotomy between causal vehicles of Buddhism which  
  rely on
   dualistic methods, all using some form of effort and nondual, truly
   effortless practice. In Hindu systems, truly effortless practice
   would be found in the Hindu nondual schools, like advaita vedanta or
   other nondual schools. For a more direct comparison, one could
   compare the nine-fold division of the Nyingmapa with the ninefold
   division in the Bengali tantras, as they are roughly parallel.
 
  All meaningless crap without a direct experience of the Absolute.
 
 
 Actually it would still possess meaning with or without a direct  
 experience of the absolute. What's important to get is just because  
 someone tells you something represents the absolute does not mean it  
 is the  absolute. 


I'm not talking about what somebody says *about* the Absolute, I'm
talking about the *experience* of the Absolute. Like I said, Vaj,
without a direct experience of the Absolute, all of your pseudo
scholarly comparative mumbo-jumbo verbiage is meaningless apart from
satisfying curiosity but with nothing practical to show for it.

If you can't come up with anything more than your pontifications
you're wasting everybody's time. But specifically offering something
practicable instead of just ignorantly bashing TM isn't your purpose,
is it? Your purpose is just to bash TM, a technique that works,
without offering anything else better; an empty arrogant exercise in
personal hostility.


 But the latter is common is diluted and/or  
 distorted traditions, like the TMO.


Your attempt to characterize the TMO has nothing to do with the
reality of the actual direct *experience* of the Absolute by countless
numbers of TMers via TM.  And you haven't a clue what that really is
since you've never *experienced* the actual properly instructed
practice of TM yourself.






[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread Duveyoung
Do.rflex,

Please examine if your use of the word Absolute squares with Advaita.  

Absolute is not Pure Being/amness/soul/mind/pure
consciousness/intellect/heart.  These other words are to label the
portal of the Absolute the place where one waits for Grace to
whisk one into the beyond-the-soul-ness, beyond identification with
Hiranyagarba.

TM is a technique of approaching Pure Being, and by sheer momentum,
the transcending-attention is found blinding blasting through the
outer barrier of pleasure that surrounds amness -- that's a
ritam-skin around the nucleus of soul-within -- that's an armor of
bliss that stops most transcending in it's tracks.  

Transcended means all duality is brought to a point value of amness
wherein the gunas are in perfect balance and not champing at the bit
to manifest something.  OM is heard clearly then.  A note that sings
of UNITY, but not freedom. 

Practicing that ability (enter being, reside, wait until some seed of
duality sprouts, exit being) cultures the nervous system, and the soul
itself is eventually re-cognized as mere reflection, image, illusion,
and suddenly it is understood to be a prison -- and escaping from
one's cell is accomplished by escaping into nothing. 

See Buddha/Vaj for details about the experiences of approaching ritam
and dealing with that bliss-armor which attracts identification so
well that Indra etc. all get glommed up with perfection's tarbaby.

The only experience of the Absolute is being.  Only being can be a
proper symbol for the Absolute, but it's merely a reflection -- what
the Absolute sees when looking into a mirror.  As if, but that's the
only way to work with words to convey this non-event, the
non-everything, the Absolute.

You can't take it with you.  That it is identification.  I am is
the last thought (the sound OM is the thought: amness) before the
practice of residing in thoughtlessness puts even that subtle
identifying to an end.

Pure being is pure identity, unsullied ego, but ego nonetheless, and
it must be abandoned.  It is not enough to merely withdraw from acts
of being.  To merely reside in being is but to abstain from placing
identity on other symbols, but the possibility of identification must
be ended too.  Soul must evaporate like the river into the ocean too
-- just as the mind had to do to enter the soul and rest therein.

I write these words and know that I had to read suchlike hundreds of
times before I finally got it that amness is not the ultimate.  It was
an extremely subtle concept that just kept going right over my head. 
Yet herein for the umpteenth time, it is clearly stated in words --
but it is hidden in plain sight.

Read Ramana's Talks three times.  Knowledge in the books stays in
the books -- they say -- but if you just keep churning on the words,
you'll be building something,  sooner or later -- like a baseball
field in the corn attracted that long line of cars on a country road
-- the meaning will come.

Edg

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, do.rflex [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
 
  
  On Nov 19, 2007, at 8:13 AM, do.rflex wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
   
   
On Nov 18, 2007, at 9:59 PM, emptybill wrote:
   

 Empty Bill:



 To parrot Vaj: Any real yogi familiar with Patanjali will
be well
 aware



 Patanjali does not discuss the topic of effort in yoga other  
   than
 to comment as follows:


 2.46: a steady (sthira) and comfortable (sukha) seat (asana)
comes
 about from –


 2.47: the loosening (shaitilya) of endeavour (prayatna) and a
 consequent coinciding (samapatti) with the endless (ananta).


 Nor does he ever use the word alambana in the sense of a
 cognitive object in any of the sutras.
   
This displays a basic misunderstanding of sutra literature in  
   general
and the prerequisites for yoga-darshana study, a la Patanjali.
Keep
in mind Billy, a sutra requires a commentary to clarify it's  
   purpose,
intent and practical application. This would typically mean the  
   20 or
so commentaries of the YS. But before these are even
approached, one
must understand sankhya. In fact one of the titles for the YS is
Sankhya-pravachana, The Enunciation of Sankhya.
   
The prerequisite for understanding of the YS is a thorough
comprehension sankhya via the Tattva-samasa-sutras.
   
Once one has this understanding, one will also understand that an
alambana will be based on any of the 24 evolutes of matter, the
prakritis and the vikritis and that an alambana approaches  
   union or
yoga via some method. No matter how easy and simple any of these
methods are, they do constitute some type of effort.
   
If one skipped the Tattva-samasa-sutras, one may miss this
essential understanding.
   
This really has little to do with 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread Vaj


On Nov 19, 2007, at 9:20 AM, do.rflex wrote:


I'm not talking about what somebody says *about* the Absolute, I'm
talking about the *experience* of the Absolute. Like I said, Vaj,
without a direct experience of the Absolute, all of your pseudo
scholarly comparative mumbo-jumbo verbiage is meaningless apart from
satisfying curiosity but with nothing practical to show for it.

If you can't come up with anything more than your pontifications
you're wasting everybody's time. But specifically offering something
practicable instead of just ignorantly bashing TM isn't your purpose,
is it? Your purpose is just to bash TM, a technique that works,
without offering anything else better; an empty arrogant exercise in
personal hostility.


Sorry do.rflex, you seem to have misunderstood once again. I do not  
assume (like you do) that TMers experience anything like the  
absolute, but I do accept that they have been conditioned to believe  
they are having the experience they were told they are experiencing.  
A large part of TM indoctrination, as you know, is setting up belief  
expectations and telling people what it is they will experience. That  
does not make it true.


So, therefore your belief that TMers have this experience is IMHO,  
mostly conditioning.


If you don't like to hear more about the YS and yoga-darshana because  
they threaten you, don't read what I have to say then. But keep in  
mind, if you don't understand the relative correctly, don't expect  
then to present views on the absolute that are of any value other  
than to those who 'drank the koolaid' (i.e. those who've decided to  
believe their TM indoctrination). The more indoctrination a TMer has,  
the more tenaciously they hold onto the newly acquired conditioning.


I'm guessing you've had quite a bit! ;-)



 But the latter is common is diluted and/or
 distorted traditions, like the TMO.

Your attempt to characterize the TMO has nothing to do with the
reality of the actual direct *experience* of the Absolute by countless
numbers of TMers via TM. And you haven't a clue what that really is
since you've never *experienced* the actual properly instructed
practice of TM yourself.


Again, you are operating on a false assumption, that TMers, via TM,  
experience the absolute. I don't accept that that is in fact the case  
in all or most TMers, although I do accept that many believe they are  
experiencing pure consciousness, the home of all the laws of nature,  
the unified field, the vacuum state, etc., etc. etc.




Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread Vaj


On Nov 19, 2007, at 10:07 AM, Duveyoung wrote:


See Buddha/Vaj for details about the experiences of approaching ritam
and dealing with that bliss-armor which attracts identification so
well that Indra etc. all get glommed up with perfection's tarbaby.



Unfortunately what most TMer's are conditioned to believe is pure  
consciousness (and a host of other synonyms) is nothing more than a  
thought-free state. This state is well known in the yoga tradition as  
sthiti. However the important thing to realize is that sthiti is not  
samprajnata-samadhi.


That's not to say some people cannot or will not, everyone's different.

And this does take effort (prayatna). As Patanjali says: The effort  
to remain there is practice. Interestingly the Sanskrit word for  
meditative effort, prayatna, is also the word the word for meditation  
technique or method. Go figure. :-)

[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread do.rflex
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Do.rflex,
 
 Please examine if your use of the word Absolute squares with Advaita. 


I use the word Absolute as described by Maharishi.

[snip frenetic, manic rant]

 




[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread Richard J. Williams
Vaj wrote:
 The prerequisite for understanding of the YS is a thorough  
 comprehension sankhya via the Tattva-samasa-sutras.

According to Kapila:

And from the contrast with that which is composed of the 
three constituents, there follows, for the purusha, the 
character of  Being, a witness; freedom from misery, 
neutrality, percipience, and non-agency. - Kaplila
 
 Once one has this understanding, one will also understand 
 that an alambana will be based on any of the 24 evolutes 
 of matter, the prakritis and the vikritis and that an 
 alambana approaches union or yoga via some method. No 
 matter how easy and simple any of these methods are, they 
 do constitute some type of effort.

So, Vaj you're thinking that Yoga means union - so how,
exactly are you going to get a union out of isolating the 
Purusha and the prakriti? Kaivalya, the ultimate goal of 
yoga, means freedom and isolation.

Only the minds born of meditation are free from karmic 
impressions. — Patanjali 

Enlightenment depends SOLELY upon discriminative knowledge 
of the true nature of things: prakriti, the relative, is 
the result of cause and effect, the interplay of the gunas 
born of nature, which, in all cases, are seperate from 
Purusha, the Being. It is ignorance, propelled by the force 
of karma, which is misery in an endless cycle called samsara. 

Read more:

Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental, alt.yoga
From: Willytex
Date: Sun, Apr 10 2005 9:21 pm
Subject: One of Four Humans, Not Counting a Dwarf
http://tinyurl.com/yvdsyr




[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread do.rflex
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Nov 19, 2007, at 9:20 AM, do.rflex wrote:
 
  I'm not talking about what somebody says *about* the Absolute, I'm
  talking about the *experience* of the Absolute. Like I said, Vaj,
  without a direct experience of the Absolute, all of your pseudo
  scholarly comparative mumbo-jumbo verbiage is meaningless apart from
  satisfying curiosity but with nothing practical to show for it.
 
  If you can't come up with anything more than your pontifications
  you're wasting everybody's time. But specifically offering something
  practicable instead of just ignorantly bashing TM isn't your purpose,
  is it? Your purpose is just to bash TM, a technique that works,
  without offering anything else better; an empty arrogant exercise in
  personal hostility.
 
 Sorry do.rflex, you seem to have misunderstood once again. I do not  
 assume (like you do) that TMers experience anything like the  
 absolute, but I do accept that they have been conditioned to believe  
 they are having the experience they were told they are experiencing.  
 A large part of TM indoctrination, as you know, is setting up belief  
 expectations and telling people what it is they will experience. That  
 does not make it true.


You wouldn't know, Vaj, since you've never *experienced* properly
instructed TM.


 
 So, therefore your belief that TMers have this experience is IMHO,  
 mostly conditioning.


Nope. I've seen the direct results and the predictable effects in
countless TMers.



 If you don't like to hear more about the YS and yoga-darshana because  
 they threaten you, don't read what I have to say then. 


They certainly don't threaten me in any way at all - any more than any
other literature would. They are just *irrelevant* to the successful
practice of TM.


 But keep in  
 mind, if you don't understand the relative correctly, don't expect  
 then to present views on the absolute that are of any value other  
 than to those who 'drank the koolaid' (i.e. those who've decided to  
 believe their TM indoctrination). The more indoctrination a TMer has,  
 the more tenaciously they hold onto the newly acquired conditioning.
 
 I'm guessing you've had quite a bit! ;-)


I go by *experience*, not TMO propaganda. In case you hadn't noticed I
have quite a dim view of the TMO as it's currently being operated, and
with all the Vedic stuff. My *experience* doesn't lie. Your total lack
of that *experience* disqualifies you from judging it.



   But the latter is common is diluted and/or
   distorted traditions, like the TMO.
 
  Your attempt to characterize the TMO has nothing to do with the
  reality of the actual direct *experience* of the Absolute by countless
  numbers of TMers via TM. And you haven't a clue what that really is
  since you've never *experienced* the actual properly instructed
  practice of TM yourself.


 
 Again, you are operating on a false assumption, that TMers, via TM,  
 experience the absolute. I don't accept that that is in fact the case  
 in all or most TMers, although I do accept that many believe they are  
 experiencing pure consciousness, the home of all the laws of nature,  
 the unified field, the vacuum state, etc., etc. etc.


Since I've instructed tens of hundreds of people into TM and directly
seen the results, my views carry a hell of a lot more legitimacy than
an outside self-appointed critic who has not - and who has not even
*experienced* TM himself.








Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread Angela Mailander
How can you possibly know what others experience or do not experience? I 
understand your point and I agree that expectation muddies the waters of 
meditation, but that doesn't mean that some, eventually, swan-like, get through 
that muddy water and come out clean.  

Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   

On Nov 19, 2007, at 9:20 AM, do.rflex wrote:

I'm not talking about what somebody says *about* the Absolute, I'm
talking about the *experience* of the Absolute. Like I said, Vaj,
without a direct experience of the Absolute, all of your pseudo
scholarly comparative mumbo-jumbo verbiage is meaningless apart from
satisfying curiosity but with nothing practical to show for it.

If you can't come up with anything more than your pontifications
you're wasting everybody's time. But specifically offering something
practicable instead of just ignorantly bashing TM isn't your purpose,
is it? Your purpose is just to bash TM, a technique that works,
without offering anything else better; an empty arrogant exercise in
personal hostility.


Sorry do.rflex, you seem to have misunderstood once again. I do not assume 
(like you do) that TMers experience anything like the absolute, but I do 
accept that they have been conditioned to believe they are having the 
experience they were told they are experiencing. A large part of TM 
indoctrination, as you know, is setting up belief expectations and telling 
people what it is they will experience. That does not make it true.


So, therefore your belief that TMers have this experience is IMHO, mostly 
conditioning.


If you don't like to hear more about the YS and yoga-darshana because they 
threaten you, don't read what I have to say then. But keep in mind, if you 
don't understand the relative correctly, don't expect then to present views on 
the absolute that are of any value other than to those who 'drank the koolaid' 
(i.e. those who've decided to believe their TM indoctrination). The more 
indoctrination a TMer has, the more tenaciously they hold onto the newly 
acquired conditioning.


I'm guessing you've had quite a bit! ;-)



 But the latter is common is diluted and/or 
 distorted traditions, like the TMO.

Your attempt to characterize the TMO has nothing to do with the
reality of the actual direct *experience* of the Absolute by countless
numbers of TMers via TM. And you haven't a clue what that really is
since you've never *experienced* the actual properly instructed
practice of TM yourself.

Again, you are operating on a false assumption, that TMers, via TM, experience 
the absolute. I don't accept that that is in fact the case in all or most 
TMers, although I do accept that many believe they are experiencing pure 
consciousness, the home of all the laws of nature, the unified field, the 
vacuum state, etc., etc. etc.


 
   

 Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread Vaj


On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:01 AM, do.rflex wrote:


I go by *experience*, not TMO propaganda.



TM instruction is TMO propaganda. You cannot be instructed in  
authentic TM without being indoctrinated in their set of  
expectations. Heck, they'll even try to convince you they've proved  
it with science!

[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread Rory Goff
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Actually it would still possess meaning with or without a direct  
 experience of the absolute. What's important to get is just 
because  
 someone tells you something represents the absolute does not mean it  
 is the  absolute. But the latter is common is diluted and/or  
 distorted traditions, like the TMO.


From here, arguing about meaning and distorted traditions or 
attaching any meaning to any tradition is completely laughable: 
just another way to deny the emptiful meaninglessness of one's a priori 
Death and attempt to cling to self-importance, judgment, specialness -- 
a complete waste of time and misuse of discrimination, IOW.

OTOH, in retrospect I see TM was an excellent anti-addiction 
addiction for us as it showed us how to transcend, or die, again and 
again: how to effortlessly give up control, again and again, until we 
were finally ready to face and surrender to the Big One.



And you're still misusing it's too. 

:-)





Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread Vaj


On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:05 AM, Angela Mailander wrote:

How can you possibly know what others experience or do not  
experience? I understand your point and I agree that expectation  
muddies the waters of meditation, but that doesn't mean that some,  
eventually, swan-like, get through that muddy water and come out  
clean.



By observation, experience and by gaining perspective through other  
techniques/methods or simply by detailed instruction in the first  
place. One of the most obvious deficits in TM practice is torpor, and  
then, falling asleep. If you know what causes this and when you  
observe (for example) that the technique for relieving torpor is not  
part of TM practice, you can gain an understanding as to why it  
occurs so commonly. That's just one example, you could go through  
other parts of the practice and draw similar conclusions from direct  
experience.


Another way, is through authoritative testimony, the experiences of  
others in the practical tradition itself. Particularly in regard to  
mental mantra practice, it's very detailed in what the stages are,  
what their signs are and what the pitfalls are. You've read Padoux,  
so I'm sure you have an idea of what I mean.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread Vaj


On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:19 AM, Rory Goff wrote:


From here, arguing about meaning and distorted traditions or
attaching any meaning to any tradition is completely laughable:


In this context, tradition means practical tradition not merely  
passing on of customs or some habitual cookie-cutter teaching.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread Vaj


On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:19 AM, Rory Goff wrote:


And you're still misusing it's too.



I've always been possessive of my pronouns.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread Richard J. Williams
Vaj wrote:
 Another way, is through authoritative testimony, the experiences 
 of others in the practical tradition itself. Particularly in 
 regard to mental mantra practice, it's very detailed in what 
 the stages are, what their signs are and what the pitfalls are. 

Kaivalya, the ultimate goal of yoga, means freedom and isolation.

Only the minds born of meditation are free from karmic 
impressions. — Patanjali, Kaivalya Pada, Sutra 7



[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread Rory Goff
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:19 AM, Rory Goff wrote:
 
  From here, arguing about meaning and distorted traditions or
  attaching any meaning to any tradition is completely laughable:
 
 In this context, tradition means practical tradition not merely  
 passing on of customs or some habitual cookie-cutter teaching.

In THIS context, any tradition, even a practical one is baloney. We 
don't die by acquiring more and more, we die by ourselves, naked and 
Alone.





[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread Rory Goff
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:19 AM, Rory Goff wrote:
 
  And you're still misusing it's too.
 
 
 I've always been possessive of my pronouns.

It's a false possession: a misunderstanding to mistake a possession for 
a contraction. 

Not unlike one's attachment to tradition.





[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread Richard J. Williams
Vaj wrote:
 In this context, tradition means practical tradition not 
 merely passing on of customs or some habitual cookie-cutter 
 teaching.

So, let's figure out what tradition we are talking about.

Guru Dev was a disciple of Swami Krishananda of Sringeri. Guru 
Dev was a tantric guru who practiced the Sri Vidya. But, 
according to some respondents, Guru Dev has no connection to 
any mantras at all, including those of Srividya, and least of 
all to any TM bija-mantras! Yet, the Sri Yantra at Sringeri, 
the tantric mnemonic device par excelence, which reposes behind 
the image of the Tri Pura Sundari, at the Sringeri Matha, 
contains at least two TM bija-mantras inscribed thereon. 

So, lets go figure. 

Read more:

Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental
From: Willytex
Date: Mon, Sep 5 2005 10:40 pm
Subject: The Sri Yantra at Sringeri
http://tinyurl.com/yo7kvz



[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread Rory Goff
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 It's a false possession: a misunderstanding to mistake a possession 
for 
 a contraction. 

And equally, as in your case, to mistake a contraction for a possession.

 
 Not unlike one's attachment to tradition.





Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread Vaj


On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:42 AM, Rory Goff wrote:


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:19 AM, Rory Goff wrote:

  From here, arguing about meaning and distorted traditions or
  attaching any meaning to any tradition is completely  
laughable:


 In this context, tradition means practical tradition not merely
 passing on of customs or some habitual cookie-cutter teaching.

In THIS context, any tradition, even a practical one is  
baloney. We

don't die by acquiring more and more, we die by ourselves, naked and
Alone.



I don't know about you, but I plan on dying with my clothes ON  
(unless of course I happen to be in the shower at the time or making  
love)!

[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread Rory Goff
R:  In THIS context, any tradition, even a practical one is  
  baloney. We
  don't die by acquiring more and more, we die by ourselves, naked and
  Alone.
 
Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 I don't know about you, but I plan on dying with my clothes ON  
 (unless of course I happen to be in the shower at the time or making  
 love)!

It is natural to trivialize and joke about it, in our attempt to avoid 
and deny it. 

Just dropping a friendly reminder that until we accept its presence 
wholeheartedly as Here and Now, our spiritual journey has not truly 
even begun.



[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread jim_flanegin
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:05 AM, Angela Mailander wrote:
 
  How can you possibly know what others experience or do not  
  experience? I understand your point and I agree that 
expectation  
  muddies the waters of meditation, but that doesn't mean that 
some,  
  eventually, swan-like, get through that muddy water and come 
out  
  clean.
 
 
 By observation, experience and by gaining perspective through 
other  
 techniques/methods or simply by detailed instruction in the first  
 place. One of the most obvious deficits in TM practice is torpor, 
and  
 then, falling asleep. If you know what causes this and when you  
 observe (for example) that the technique for relieving torpor is 
not  
 part of TM practice, you can gain an understanding as to why it  
 occurs so commonly. That's just one example, you could go through  
 other parts of the practice and draw similar conclusions from 
direct  
 experience.
 
 Another way, is through authoritative testimony, the experiences 
of  
 others in the practical tradition itself. Particularly in regard 
to  
 mental mantra practice, it's very detailed in what the stages 
are,  
 what their signs are and what the pitfalls are. You've read 
Padoux,  
 so I'm sure you have an idea of what I mean.

Poppycock-- has no relevance at all in the REAL world. To each his 
own, but don't expect to get here from there. Enrobed and glittering 
ignorance, or maybe somber and serious ignorance, is all you will be 
left with.



[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread jim_flanegin
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 R:  In THIS context, any tradition, even a practical one is  
   baloney. We
   don't die by acquiring more and more, we die by ourselves, 
naked and
   Alone.
  
 Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  
  I don't know about you, but I plan on dying with my clothes ON  
  (unless of course I happen to be in the shower at the time or 
making  
  love)!
 
 It is natural to trivialize and joke about it, in our attempt to 
avoid 
 and deny it. 
 
 Just dropping a friendly reminder that until we accept its 
presence 
 wholeheartedly as Here and Now, our spiritual journey has not 
truly 
 even begun.

As we see from this world's great religions, lifetimes can be 
spent deciding what to wear, what color, drape of fabric, what shoes 
to put on, how to step, in what order progress will be made, what to 
think, how others may have explained it in the dusty past, before 
the very first step of the spiritual journey is made. What a waste 
of time, and a waste of life.



Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread Angela Mailander
I do have an idea of what you mean, and not just cause I've read Padoux.  I had 
the personal, daily attention of my teacher for six years.  I was only six 
years old when I learned, and no expectations whatsoever were ever mentioned.  
It didn't occur to me to ask, at six years old, why I should do what some adult 
was telling me to do, and, six years later, I was on my own and just continued 
to meditate as instructed.  I've often thought that the lack of personal 
attention from a really experienced teacher was a problem for some TM-ers.  
When I had my whole family initiated into TM, I'd been meditating for 25 years 
and it was perfectly clear to me that my teachers were, on the whole, 
inexperienced in both meditation and in teaching it.  But the miracle is that 
it nevertheless has worked for many in my opinion.

I also believe that it is possible to know whether someone else is really 
getting it or not.  My first week in China, I escaped from campus without 
interpreters and went to find a local temple to kind of pay my respects to the 
local gods. A monk was sitting at the door, doing calligraphy.  We nodded a 
brief hello to one another, and I went in, found a dark corner, and settled 
down for a long meditation

About an hour later, I heard a clear and distinct voice with a Brooklyn accent 
say something about the exact state I was in and the exact experience I was 
having, adding a useful hint.  I turned around, but saw no one.  I settled back 
in, and the same voice said, What's the matter, you don't think someone who 
looks like me should sound like this? It was the monk.  Of course we became 
friends.  Turns out he was a Chinese American born and raised in Brooklyn, New 
York, but had come to China to become a monk in his teens.

So, it is possible, and I find I often know what someone else is thinking.  But 
there are literally millions of TMers.  You can't have done enough of a study 
to determine what percentage of them are getting it. a



Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   

On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:05 AM, Angela Mailander wrote:

How can you possibly know what others experience or do not experience? I 
understand your point and I agree that expectation muddies the waters of 
meditation, but that doesn't mean that some, eventually, swan-like, get through 
that muddy water and come out clean.  



By observation, experience and by gaining perspective through other 
techniques/methods or simply by detailed instruction in the first place. One of 
the most obvious deficits in TM practice is torpor, and then, falling asleep. 
If you know what causes this and when you observe (for example) that the 
technique for relieving torpor is not part of TM practice, you can gain an 
understanding as to why it occurs so commonly. That's just one example, you 
could go through other parts of the practice and draw similar conclusions from 
direct experience. 


Another way, is through authoritative testimony, the experiences of others in 
the practical tradition itself. Particularly in regard to mental mantra 
practice, it's very detailed in what the stages are, what their signs are and 
what the pitfalls are. You've read Padoux, so I'm sure you have an idea of what 
I mean.

 
   

 Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread Rory Goff
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 As we see from this world's great religions, lifetimes can be 
 spent deciding what to wear, what color, drape of fabric, what 
shoes 
 to put on, how to step, in what order progress will be made, what 
to 
 think, how others may have explained it in the dusty past, before 
 the very first step of the spiritual journey is made. What a waste 
 of time, and a waste of life.

Certainly looks like it, doesn't it? Life is wasted on the living. 

*lol*

But there's one thing I've learned here: the living can not really 
see the dead, and the dead cannot really speak to the living. 

To us the so-called living are like ghosts -- i.e., the dead who 
refuse to acknowledge they are dead, because of some attachment they 
still hold to earth, some overriding past-memory or future-desire 
keeping them out of Here and Now. We can speak to them, but they 
refuse to hear.

The dead can only be truly heard by the dead, or, on rare occasions, 
by someone on their death-bed. 

Then they can see us, and we can serve as a welcoming-committee, as 
was my pleasure with you :-)








[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread curtisdeltablues
But there are literally millions of TMers.

At the DC center back in '85 I had a campaign to call the 10,000
mediators who had been initiated in DC.  The results were that only a
tiny group, no more than a few hundred had continued the practice and
most of them had gone on to the sidhis.  The lone meditator continuing
their practice without continued contact with the belief system is a
TM urban legend.

Would anyone like to guess how many people practice TM in the world? 
I think we would have to start with the numbers of sidhas.   I am
guessing that a higher percentage of that group is likely to as least
still do TM.  Perhaps someone in Fairfield can guess the percentages
of the community that still does TM.  I would guess that the number of
people in the world doing TM regularly is no more more than 30,000 and
perhaps a lot less.  But maybe someone else has a better way of
guessing.  The movement was very uninterested in the results of the DC
campaign.  I have never seen any interest in finding out how many
people still practice either the sidhis or TM.  I think I can guess why.






--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Angela Mailander
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I do have an idea of what you mean, and not just cause I've read
Padoux.  I had the personal, daily attention of my teacher for six
years.  I was only six years old when I learned, and no expectations
whatsoever were ever mentioned.  It didn't occur to me to ask, at six
years old, why I should do what some adult was telling me to do, and,
six years later, I was on my own and just continued to meditate as
instructed.  I've often thought that the lack of personal attention
from a really experienced teacher was a problem for some TM-ers.  When
I had my whole family initiated into TM, I'd been meditating for 25
years and it was perfectly clear to me that my teachers were, on the
whole, inexperienced in both meditation and in teaching it.  But the
miracle is that it nevertheless has worked for many in my opinion.
 
 I also believe that it is possible to know whether someone else is
really getting it or not.  My first week in China, I escaped from
campus without interpreters and went to find a local temple to kind of
pay my respects to the local gods. A monk was sitting at the door,
doing calligraphy.  We nodded a brief hello to one another, and I went
in, found a dark corner, and settled down for a long meditation
 
 About an hour later, I heard a clear and distinct voice with a
Brooklyn accent say something about the exact state I was in and the
exact experience I was having, adding a useful hint.  I turned around,
but saw no one.  I settled back in, and the same voice said, What's
the matter, you don't think someone who looks like me should sound
like this? It was the monk.  Of course we became friends.  Turns out
he was a Chinese American born and raised in Brooklyn, New York, but
had come to China to become a monk in his teens.
 
 So, it is possible, and I find I often know what someone else is
thinking.  But there are literally millions of TMers.  You can't have
done enough of a study to determine what percentage of them are
getting it. a
 
 
 
 Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   
 
 On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:05 AM, Angela Mailander wrote:
 
 How can you possibly know what others experience or do not
experience? I understand your point and I agree that expectation
muddies the waters of meditation, but that doesn't mean that some,
eventually, swan-like, get through that muddy water and come out clean.  
 
 
 
 By observation, experience and by gaining perspective through other
techniques/methods or simply by detailed instruction in the first
place. One of the most obvious deficits in TM practice is torpor, and
then, falling asleep. If you know what causes this and when you
observe (for example) that the technique for relieving torpor is not
part of TM practice, you can gain an understanding as to why it occurs
so commonly. That's just one example, you could go through other parts
of the practice and draw similar conclusions from direct experience. 
 
 
 Another way, is through authoritative testimony, the experiences of
others in the practical tradition itself. Particularly in regard to
mental mantra practice, it's very detailed in what the stages are,
what their signs are and what the pitfalls are. You've read Padoux, so
I'm sure you have an idea of what I mean.
 
  

 
  Send instant messages to your online friends
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com





Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread Vaj


On Nov 19, 2007, at 12:14 PM, Angela Mailander wrote:

So, it is possible, and I find I often know what someone else is  
thinking.  But there are literally millions of TMers.  You can't  
have done enough of a study to determine what percentage of them  
are getting it. a



Honestly, I don't think many are left, at least compared to the  
numbers that started.


It's pretty easy to spot some of the more prevalent meditational  
issues (like falling asleep), esp. if you're a domer. It's only more  
recently we've actually had number of TM-sidhi people being  
investigated by experienced yogins for meditational disorders and  
damage. The reports I've heard are that it's a prevalent problem in  
long-term TM-sidhi people, as it tends to cause imbalanced awakenings  
and a host of issues. How prevalent? It's hard to say.





[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread hugheshugo
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Nov 19, 2007, at 12:14 PM, Angela Mailander wrote:
 
  So, it is possible, and I find I often know what someone else is  
  thinking.  But there are literally millions of TMers.  You can't  
  have done enough of a study to determine what percentage of them  
  are getting it. a
 
 
 Honestly, I don't think many are left, at least compared to the  
 numbers that started.
 
 It's pretty easy to spot some of the more prevalent meditational  
 issues (like falling asleep), esp. if you're a domer. It's only 
more  
 recently we've actually had number of TM-sidhi people being  
 investigated by experienced yogins for meditational disorders and  
 damage. The reports I've heard are that it's a prevalent problem 
in  
 long-term TM-sidhi people, as it tends to cause imbalanced 
awakenings  
 and a host of issues. How prevalent? It's hard to say.


Vaj, can you enlarge on this a bit. Who is this we doing the 
investigating? 

I ask because I'm really not sure if the TMSP is doing me any good 
anymore, I don't like doing long progs either, I used to but now it 
makes me feel shite, really thick-headed, tired and angry, nothing 
easy or relaxing about it.

It's easy to just go along with the TMO claims about unstressing but 
I've been losing confidence in the whole TM charade for a while now, 
maybe that's the cause of it, if you don't believe in the supporting 
philosophy perhaps you lose the ability (or will) to transcend.




[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread jim_flanegin
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ 
 wrote:
  As we see from this world's great religions, lifetimes can be 
  spent deciding what to wear, what color, drape of fabric, what 
 shoes 
  to put on, how to step, in what order progress will be made, 
what 
 to 
  think, how others may have explained it in the dusty past, 
before 
  the very first step of the spiritual journey is made. What a 
waste 
  of time, and a waste of life.
 
 Certainly looks like it, doesn't it? Life is wasted on the 
living. 
 
 *lol*
 
 But there's one thing I've learned here: the living can not really 
 see the dead, and the dead cannot really speak to the living. 
 
 To us the so-called living are like ghosts -- i.e., the dead who 
 refuse to acknowledge they are dead, because of some attachment 
they 
 still hold to earth, some overriding past-memory or future-desire 
 keeping them out of Here and Now. We can speak to them, but they 
 refuse to hear.
 
 The dead can only be truly heard by the dead, or, on rare 
occasions, 
 by someone on their death-bed. 
 
 Then they can see us, and we can serve as a welcoming-committee, 
as 
 was my pleasure with you :-)

The oddest thing about your welcoming commitee role with me was that 
I had an expectation of it for about twenty years. I would 
infrequently run across individuals who I thought would fulfill this 
role for me, but not yet ready myself, my death did not occur until 
we met. Hey, someone's gotta do it, right?  

It is an interesting sequence to go through leading up to such a 
point of ultimate dissolution; that I was continually facing down or 
plunging headlong into the destruction of my boundaries, learning 
how far to go, what to retain and what to lose, until the final 
threads of my fake identity dissolved altogether-- buh bye... 



[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread jim_flanegin
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
 
  
  On Nov 19, 2007, at 12:14 PM, Angela Mailander wrote:
  
   So, it is possible, and I find I often know what someone else 
is  
   thinking.  But there are literally millions of TMers.  You 
can't  
   have done enough of a study to determine what percentage of 
them  
   are getting it. a
  
  
  Honestly, I don't think many are left, at least compared to the  
  numbers that started.
  
  It's pretty easy to spot some of the more prevalent 
meditational  
  issues (like falling asleep), esp. if you're a domer. It's only 
 more  
  recently we've actually had number of TM-sidhi people being  
  investigated by experienced yogins for meditational disorders 
and  
  damage. The reports I've heard are that it's a prevalent problem 
 in  
  long-term TM-sidhi people, as it tends to cause imbalanced 
 awakenings  
  and a host of issues. How prevalent? It's hard to say.
 
 
 Vaj, can you enlarge on this a bit. Who is this we doing the 
 investigating? 
 
 I ask because I'm really not sure if the TMSP is doing me any good 
 anymore, I don't like doing long progs either, I used to but now 
it 
 makes me feel shite, really thick-headed, tired and angry, nothing 
 easy or relaxing about it.
 
 It's easy to just go along with the TMO claims about unstressing 
but 
 I've been losing confidence in the whole TM charade for a while 
now, 
 maybe that's the cause of it, if you don't believe in the 
supporting 
 philosophy perhaps you lose the ability (or will) to transcend.

Speaking from personal experience, what TM and especially the more 
powerful TMSP does, is continue to set up the bodymind or nervous 
system (choose your term...) to experience enlightenment. After 
awhile, the bodymind becomes so attuned to experiencing this that it 
is almost ready to sustain it. But, the false identity and the 
couldas, wouldas, and shouldas keep wanting to intrude and get into 
strong conflict with this natural state. 

So if you want to give yourself a break and perhaps integrate into 
activity a little more, lay off the siddhis altogether, and just do 
TM 2x a day-- maybe some regular exercise too, just to keep the 
runaway intellect from trying to always intercede and control 
things. It will balance you out and perhaps give you a little bit 
more insight into where your attention needs to be for your personal 
issues to be resolved.



Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread Vaj


On Nov 19, 2007, at 12:57 PM, hugheshugo wrote:


Vaj, can you enlarge on this a bit. Who is this we doing the
investigating?


The people I was referring to was a yogini and lineage-holder named  
Joan Harrigan and her guru from the Saraswati order, Swami  
Chandrasekharanand of Rishikesh. They are some of the few, possibly  
the only people in the west who are doing the difficult work of  
helping people who had imbalanced or dead-end kundalini awakenings  
resolve their issues. Two of the most famous ex-TMers that I know of  
who have utilized and praised their services are Earl Kaplan and Dr.  
John Doulliard. Doulliard was at one time a movement big wig, and an  
expert in marma therapy. Here's what his wife said (emphasis mine):


I've known Swamiji and Joan for two years now and can honestly say  
that they are the real deal. In this day and age of a hundred guru  
wanna be's offering everything under the sun it's rare if not next to  
impossible to find sincere, authentic, and truly competent spiritual  
teachers with only your progress and best interest in mind. Their  
retreats are truly life changing and transformational and their  
comments on your personal history are worth the price of admission  
alone. I've had many blessings in my life with six beautiful and  
healthy kids and a wonderful husband but if one is a true spiritual  
seeker there isn't any outward or physical blessing that can pacify  
the soul's yearning like the discovery and experience of the real  
spiritual progress that they offer.

--Ginger Doulliard, Boulder, Colorado
Wife and mother

They are out of Tennessee. If you have any questions whatsoever, I'd  
recommend any TM or TMSP practitioner to read Joan's _Kundalini  
Vidya_ or to contact these people for a consult.




I ask because I'm really not sure if the TMSP is doing me any good
anymore, I don't like doing long progs either, I used to but now it
makes me feel shite, really thick-headed, tired and angry, nothing
easy or relaxing about it.


These are not unusual symptoms for someone with an imbalanced  
arising, but let these people consult with you, they are extremely  
detailed, authentic and have helped a lot of damaged people.


What many people do not realize is that certain gurus can utilize  
unbalanced awakenings to their advantage. One of these ways is to get  
the students to cultivate siddhis.




[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread hugheshugo
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Nov 19, 2007, at 12:57 PM, hugheshugo wrote:
 
  Vaj, can you enlarge on this a bit. Who is this we doing the
  investigating?
 
 The people I was referring to was a yogini and lineage-holder 
named  
 Joan Harrigan and her guru from the Saraswati order, Swami  
 Chandrasekharanand of Rishikesh. They are some of the few, 
possibly  
 the only people in the west who are doing the difficult work of  
 helping people who had imbalanced or dead-end kundalini awakenings  
 resolve their issues. Two of the most famous ex-TMers that I know 
of  
 who have utilized and praised their services are Earl Kaplan and 
Dr.  
 John Doulliard. Doulliard was at one time a movement big wig, and 
an  
 expert in marma therapy. Here's what his wife said (emphasis mine):
 
 I've known Swamiji and Joan for two years now and can honestly say  
 that they are the real deal. In this day and age of a hundred guru  
 wanna be's offering everything under the sun it's rare if not next 
to  
 impossible to find sincere, authentic, and truly competent 
spiritual  
 teachers with only your progress and best interest in mind. Their  
 retreats are truly life changing and transformational and their  
 comments on your personal history are worth the price of admission  
 alone. I've had many blessings in my life with six beautiful and  
 healthy kids and a wonderful husband but if one is a true 
spiritual  
 seeker there isn't any outward or physical blessing that can 
pacify  
 the soul's yearning like the discovery and experience of the real  
 spiritual progress that they offer.
 --Ginger Doulliard, Boulder, Colorado
 Wife and mother
 
 They are out of Tennessee. If you have any questions whatsoever, 
I'd  
 recommend any TM or TMSP practitioner to read Joan's _Kundalini  
 Vidya_ or to contact these people for a consult.
 
 
  I ask because I'm really not sure if the TMSP is doing me any good
  anymore, I don't like doing long progs either, I used to but now 
it
  makes me feel shite, really thick-headed, tired and angry, nothing
  easy or relaxing about it.
 
 These are not unusual symptoms for someone with an imbalanced  
 arising, but let these people consult with you, they are extremely  
 detailed, authentic and have helped a lot of damaged people.
 
 What many people do not realize is that certain gurus can utilize  
 unbalanced awakenings to their advantage. One of these ways is to 
get  
 the students to cultivate siddhis.



Thanks Vaj, very interesting. I shall look into it.



[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread curtisdeltablues
  I ask because I'm really not sure if the TMSP is doing me any good
  anymore, I don't like doing long progs either, I used to but now it
  makes me feel shite, really thick-headed, tired and angry, nothing
  easy or relaxing about it.
 
 These are not unusual symptoms for someone with an imbalanced  
 arising, but let these people consult with you, they are extremely  
 detailed, authentic and have helped a lot of damaged people.

Just as an alternative, non spiritual viewpoint...

Perhaps you don't need any more passive relaxation.  There may be
nothing wrong with you that needs fixing.  Your symptoms also match
dissociation caused by too much passive relaxation.   When I stopped
meditating about 19 years ago it felt a little weird for a few days
and I sometimes had to take an afternoon nap since I was used to
resting then.  But in less than a week I felt great and have never
desired the state again.  I found that dissociation caused me to be a
little detached from my feelings in a way that muffled them a bit.  I
enjoy the clarity non meditation has brought.  

I don't think meditation is a bad thing for everyone, but I also don't
think it is a good thing for everyone.  Unless you are really
committed to the belief  in gaining enlightenment through meditation,
you might just want to find out for yourself if meditation really
serves your current needs. Not meditating changes you and surprises
you as much as meditating does.  I enjoyed meditating for the 15 years
I practiced.  I never missed one and rounded for about 3-4 years
total.  But my life as a non meditator is satisfying enough that I
would not consider going back to the meditation influenced functioning.

I am writing this just to let you know that there is a satisfying life
after TM.  When people get into TM heavily I think there can be a
belief that non meditators are living less full lives.  For me that
has not been the case, it has been the opposite.   






--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Nov 19, 2007, at 12:57 PM, hugheshugo wrote:
 
  Vaj, can you enlarge on this a bit. Who is this we doing the
  investigating?
 
 The people I was referring to was a yogini and lineage-holder named  
 Joan Harrigan and her guru from the Saraswati order, Swami  
 Chandrasekharanand of Rishikesh. They are some of the few, possibly  
 the only people in the west who are doing the difficult work of  
 helping people who had imbalanced or dead-end kundalini awakenings  
 resolve their issues. Two of the most famous ex-TMers that I know of  
 who have utilized and praised their services are Earl Kaplan and Dr.  
 John Doulliard. Doulliard was at one time a movement big wig, and an  
 expert in marma therapy. Here's what his wife said (emphasis mine):
 
 I've known Swamiji and Joan for two years now and can honestly say  
 that they are the real deal. In this day and age of a hundred guru  
 wanna be's offering everything under the sun it's rare if not next to  
 impossible to find sincere, authentic, and truly competent spiritual  
 teachers with only your progress and best interest in mind. Their  
 retreats are truly life changing and transformational and their  
 comments on your personal history are worth the price of admission  
 alone. I've had many blessings in my life with six beautiful and  
 healthy kids and a wonderful husband but if one is a true spiritual  
 seeker there isn't any outward or physical blessing that can pacify  
 the soul's yearning like the discovery and experience of the real  
 spiritual progress that they offer.
 --Ginger Doulliard, Boulder, Colorado
 Wife and mother
 
 They are out of Tennessee. If you have any questions whatsoever, I'd  
 recommend any TM or TMSP practitioner to read Joan's _Kundalini  
 Vidya_ or to contact these people for a consult.
 
 
  I ask because I'm really not sure if the TMSP is doing me any good
  anymore, I don't like doing long progs either, I used to but now it
  makes me feel shite, really thick-headed, tired and angry, nothing
  easy or relaxing about it.
 
 These are not unusual symptoms for someone with an imbalanced  
 arising, but let these people consult with you, they are extremely  
 detailed, authentic and have helped a lot of damaged people.
 
 What many people do not realize is that certain gurus can utilize  
 unbalanced awakenings to their advantage. One of these ways is to get  
 the students to cultivate siddhis.





[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread hugheshugo
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo 
 richardhughes103@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  
   
   On Nov 19, 2007, at 12:14 PM, Angela Mailander wrote:
   
So, it is possible, and I find I often know what someone else 
 is  
thinking.  But there are literally millions of TMers.  You 
 can't  
have done enough of a study to determine what percentage of 
 them  
are getting it. a
   
   
   Honestly, I don't think many are left, at least compared to 
the  
   numbers that started.
   
   It's pretty easy to spot some of the more prevalent 
 meditational  
   issues (like falling asleep), esp. if you're a domer. It's only 
  more  
   recently we've actually had number of TM-sidhi people being  
   investigated by experienced yogins for meditational disorders 
 and  
   damage. The reports I've heard are that it's a prevalent 
problem 
  in  
   long-term TM-sidhi people, as it tends to cause imbalanced 
  awakenings  
   and a host of issues. How prevalent? It's hard to say.
  
  
  Vaj, can you enlarge on this a bit. Who is this we doing the 
  investigating? 
  
  I ask because I'm really not sure if the TMSP is doing me any 
good 
  anymore, I don't like doing long progs either, I used to but now 
 it 
  makes me feel shite, really thick-headed, tired and angry, 
nothing 
  easy or relaxing about it.
  
  It's easy to just go along with the TMO claims about unstressing 
 but 
  I've been losing confidence in the whole TM charade for a while 
 now, 
  maybe that's the cause of it, if you don't believe in the 
 supporting 
  philosophy perhaps you lose the ability (or will) to transcend.
 
 Speaking from personal experience, what TM and especially the more 
 powerful TMSP does, is continue to set up the bodymind or nervous 
 system (choose your term...) to experience enlightenment. After 
 awhile, the bodymind becomes so attuned to experiencing this that 
it 
 is almost ready to sustain it. But, the false identity and the 
 couldas, wouldas, and shouldas keep wanting to intrude and get into 
 strong conflict with this natural state. 
 
 So if you want to give yourself a break and perhaps integrate into 
 activity a little more, lay off the siddhis altogether, and just do 
 TM 2x a day-- maybe some regular exercise too, just to keep the 
 runaway intellect from trying to always intercede and control 
 things. It will balance you out and perhaps give you a little bit 
 more insight into where your attention needs to be for your 
personal 
 issues to be resolved.


Thanks for the advice Jim I know what your saying, but I'm not sure 
my intellect is trying to control anyhting when I meditate. It feels 
like the state of consciousness I get into is putting to much strain 
on me, it's not that I strain it's just like my mind doesn't want 
to be there at all! It's mentally and physically unpleasant. You are 
right though I shall give the sids a miss for a bit, I'd pretty much 
done that anyway.

I wonder how many stop TM because of things like this. I think Vaj is 
right in that this awakening can go wrong and there is no expertise 
in the TMO to help you cope with it, not that I've ever heard of 
anyway, it's just do more asanas usually.



[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread jim_flanegin
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo 
  richardhughes103@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
   

On Nov 19, 2007, at 12:14 PM, Angela Mailander wrote:

 So, it is possible, and I find I often know what someone 
else 
  is  
 thinking.  But there are literally millions of TMers.  You 
  can't  
 have done enough of a study to determine what percentage 
of 
  them  
 are getting it. a


Honestly, I don't think many are left, at least compared to 
 the  
numbers that started.

It's pretty easy to spot some of the more prevalent 
  meditational  
issues (like falling asleep), esp. if you're a domer. It's 
only 
   more  
recently we've actually had number of TM-sidhi people being  
investigated by experienced yogins for meditational 
disorders 
  and  
damage. The reports I've heard are that it's a prevalent 
 problem 
   in  
long-term TM-sidhi people, as it tends to cause imbalanced 
   awakenings  
and a host of issues. How prevalent? It's hard to say.
   
   
   Vaj, can you enlarge on this a bit. Who is this we doing the 
   investigating? 
   
   I ask because I'm really not sure if the TMSP is doing me any 
 good 
   anymore, I don't like doing long progs either, I used to but 
now 
  it 
   makes me feel shite, really thick-headed, tired and angry, 
 nothing 
   easy or relaxing about it.
   
   It's easy to just go along with the TMO claims about 
unstressing 
  but 
   I've been losing confidence in the whole TM charade for a 
while 
  now, 
   maybe that's the cause of it, if you don't believe in the 
  supporting 
   philosophy perhaps you lose the ability (or will) to transcend.
  
  Speaking from personal experience, what TM and especially the 
more 
  powerful TMSP does, is continue to set up the bodymind or 
nervous 
  system (choose your term...) to experience enlightenment. After 
  awhile, the bodymind becomes so attuned to experiencing this 
that 
 it 
  is almost ready to sustain it. But, the false identity and the 
  couldas, wouldas, and shouldas keep wanting to intrude and get 
into 
  strong conflict with this natural state. 
  
  So if you want to give yourself a break and perhaps integrate 
into 
  activity a little more, lay off the siddhis altogether, and just 
do 
  TM 2x a day-- maybe some regular exercise too, just to keep the 
  runaway intellect from trying to always intercede and control 
  things. It will balance you out and perhaps give you a little 
bit 
  more insight into where your attention needs to be for your 
 personal 
  issues to be resolved.
 
 
 Thanks for the advice Jim I know what your saying, but I'm not 
sure 
 my intellect is trying to control anyhting when I meditate. It 
feels 
 like the state of consciousness I get into is putting to much 
strain 
 on me, it's not that I strain it's just like my mind doesn't 
want 
 to be there at all! It's mentally and physically unpleasant. You 
are 
 right though I shall give the sids a miss for a bit, I'd pretty 
much 
 done that anyway.

Sounds like it could just be too much meditation at this point and 
not enough integration-- My experience was as I progressed, TM and 
TMSP became incredibly efficient and powerful. Like you are doing 
anyway, just lay off the TMSP for awhile, or permanently if you want 
to. *Get into your body more*.

 
 I wonder how many stop TM because of things like this. I think Vaj 
is 
 right in that this awakening can go wrong and there is no 
expertise 
 in the TMO to help you cope with it, not that I've ever heard of 
 anyway, it's just do more asanas usually.

Where there is a will, there is a way.



[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  But there are literally millions of TMers.
 
 Would anyone like to guess how many people practice TM in 
 the world? I think we would have to start with the numbers 
 of sidhas. I am guessing that a higher percentage of that 
 group is likely to as least still do TM. Perhaps someone in 
 Fairfield can guess the percentages of the community that 
 still does TM.  I would guess that the number of people in 
 the world doing TM regularly is no more more than 30,000 and
 perhaps a lot less.  

I'd be very surprised if there were more than 
9,990 practicing TM regularly worldwide. 

I would have made it an even 10,000, but it 
appears that Bevan has eaten at least ten of 
them, so I'm gonna stick with 9,990.





[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread hugheshugo
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   I ask because I'm really not sure if the TMSP is doing me any 
good
   anymore, I don't like doing long progs either, I used to but 
now it
   makes me feel shite, really thick-headed, tired and angry, 
nothing
   easy or relaxing about it.
  
  These are not unusual symptoms for someone with an imbalanced  
  arising, but let these people consult with you, they are 
extremely  
  detailed, authentic and have helped a lot of damaged people.
 
 Just as an alternative, non spiritual viewpoint...
 
 Perhaps you don't need any more passive relaxation.  There may be
 nothing wrong with you that needs fixing.  Your symptoms also match
 dissociation caused by too much passive relaxation.   When I stopped
 meditating about 19 years ago it felt a little weird for a few days
 and I sometimes had to take an afternoon nap since I was used to
 resting then.  But in less than a week I felt great and have never
 desired the state again.  I found that dissociation caused me to be 
a
 little detached from my feelings in a way that muffled them a bit.  
I
 enjoy the clarity non meditation has brought.  
 
 I don't think meditation is a bad thing for everyone, but I also 
don't
 think it is a good thing for everyone.  Unless you are really
 committed to the belief  in gaining enlightenment through 
meditation,
 you might just want to find out for yourself if meditation really
 serves your current needs. Not meditating changes you and surprises
 you as much as meditating does.  I enjoyed meditating for the 15 
years
 I practiced.  I never missed one and rounded for about 3-4 years
 total.  But my life as a non meditator is satisfying enough that I
 would not consider going back to the meditation influenced 
functioning.
 
 I am writing this just to let you know that there is a satisfying 
life
 after TM.  When people get into TM heavily I think there can be a
 belief that non meditators are living less full lives.  For me that
 has not been the case, it has been the opposite.   
 

Thanks Curtis. You're right, it is easy to get into the feeling that 
life would be less rich if I quit this habit. It's also been so long 
I can't imagine life without it. What do you do with the extra 
hours ;-)

A part of me would love to get on a meditating trip that I thought 
was working and re-capture the love of it I had years ago, which is 
why I will check out Vaj's recommendation, but the inner voice has 
been telling me it's over for a while now. I've learnt new things 
which are powerful in a different way. There is more we can do and be 
without all this unstressing etc and once you have a new technique 
that does what you were originally looking for the drive to solve 
problems via TM disappears. 

The only purpose of meditation for me now is gaining enlightenment, 
which seemed like a big deal once, not so sure now.



[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread jim_flanegin
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
 curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
 
   But there are literally millions of TMers.
  
  Would anyone like to guess how many people practice TM in 
  the world? I think we would have to start with the numbers 
  of sidhas. I am guessing that a higher percentage of that 
  group is likely to as least still do TM. Perhaps someone in 
  Fairfield can guess the percentages of the community that 
  still does TM.  I would guess that the number of people in 
  the world doing TM regularly is no more more than 30,000 and
  perhaps a lot less.  
 
 I'd be very surprised if there were more than 
 9,990 practicing TM regularly worldwide. 
 
I'd put the number at around 200 thousand globally, doing TM every 
day, 2x per day.
 I would have made it an even 10,000, but it 
 appears that Bevan has eaten at least ten of 
 them, so I'm gonna stick with 9,990.





[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread matrixmonitor
---I don't get it.  In reply to the statement that if people waste 
their lives watching the NFL and drinking beer, Rory said This could 
be just what the doctor ordered.  Sounds like somebody wants to have 
it both ways. 



 In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff rorygoff@ 
 wrote:
 
  R:  In THIS context, any tradition, even a practical one is  
baloney. We
don't die by acquiring more and more, we die by ourselves, 
 naked and
Alone.
   
  Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
   
   I don't know about you, but I plan on dying with my clothes ON  
   (unless of course I happen to be in the shower at the time or 
 making  
   love)!
  
  It is natural to trivialize and joke about it, in our attempt to 
 avoid 
  and deny it. 
  
  Just dropping a friendly reminder that until we accept its 
 presence 
  wholeheartedly as Here and Now, our spiritual journey has not 
 truly 
  even begun.
 
 As we see from this world's great religions, lifetimes can be 
 spent deciding what to wear, what color, drape of fabric, what 
shoes 
 to put on, how to step, in what order progress will be made, what 
to 
 think, how others may have explained it in the dusty past, before 
 the very first step of the spiritual journey is made. What a waste 
 of time, and a waste of life.





[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:01 AM, do.rflex wrote:
 
  I go by *experience*, not TMO propaganda.
 
 TM instruction is TMO propaganda. You cannot be instructed in  
 authentic TM without being indoctrinated in their set of  
 expectations. Heck, they'll even try to convince you they've
 proved it with science!

Nonsense. It's entirely possible to separate the
indoctrination from experience of the technique.
Not only is it possible, it isn't possible *not*
to separate them.

It's not possible to indoctrinate someone into
the experience of the technique. That experience
is what it is, independently of any thoughts,
scientific or otherwise, *about* the experience.

Descriptions of the experience cannot generate
the experience because, by definition, such
descriptions, no matter how precise, are always
inaccurate and inadequate.

The most indoctrination and descriptions of
the experience can accomplish is to lead you to
learn the technique and inspire you to keep
practicing.

[to Angela:)
 One of the most obvious deficits in TM practice is torpor, and 
 then, falling asleep. If you know what causes this and when you 
 observe (for example) that the technique for relieving torpor 
 is not part of TM practice, you can gain an understanding as to
 why it occurs so commonly.

This is circular reasoning. You're defining torpor
and sleep as a deficit. If they aren't a deficit but
part of a natural cycle, then obviously there's no
basis to have a technique for relieving them; to
relieve them would interfere with that cycle and
would therefore *itself* be a deficit.

 Another way, is through authoritative testimony, the experiences
 of others in the practical tradition itself. Particularly in
 regard to mental mantra practice, it's very detailed in what the 
 stages are, what their signs are and what the pitfalls are.

But the practical tradition itself of which you
speak is not TM, therefore the testimony relating
to it is irrelevant with regard to TM.

My overall point is that you never, in my observation,
actually deal with TM on its own terms. You're always
making arguments to the effect that because Tradition
A says X and MMY says Y, therefore MMY must be wrong.
But that's no more valid as an argument than a TMer
saying that because Tradition A says X and MMY says Y,
therefore Tradition A must be wrong.

You sound like a Catholic priest insisting Martin
Luther was wrong because he didn't teach Catholic
dogma, or a Republican insisting a Democrat is
wrong because the Democrat advocates X while Reagan
advocated Y. That isn't an argument against Luther's
teaching or against Democratic policy that would
convince anybody who wasn't already a believing
Catholic or a devout Republican.

That MMY's teaching is different from that of
standard Yogic tradition is not only a given, it's
MMY's raison d'etre, just as a teaching that was
different from Catholic dogma was Luther's raison
d'etre. If you can't show why MMY's or Luther's
teachings are wrong *on their own terms*, you
haven't said a damn thing worth hearing.




[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread jim_flanegin
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, matrixmonitor 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 ---I don't get it.  In reply to the statement that if people waste 
 their lives watching the NFL and drinking beer, Rory said This 
could 
 be just what the doctor ordered.  Sounds like somebody wants to 
have 
 it both ways. 
 
Short answer, yes. And no problem with that. Mine was a personal 
opinion, whereas Rory's was an observation. I should have clarified 
that *for me*, the way the major religions approach enlightenment is 
like someone who says they want to go bungee jumping, and instead of 
doing so, spends all of their time taking measurements, studying 
techniques, asking other's opinions, issuing pronouncements on what it 
will feel like when the jump is made, instead of just jumping.



[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread jim_flanegin
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  
  On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:01 AM, do.rflex wrote:
  
   I go by *experience*, not TMO propaganda.
  
  TM instruction is TMO propaganda. You cannot be instructed in  
  authentic TM without being indoctrinated in their set of  
  expectations. Heck, they'll even try to convince you they've
  proved it with science!
 
 Nonsense. It's entirely possible to separate the
 indoctrination from experience of the technique.
 Not only is it possible, it isn't possible *not*
 to separate them.
 
given that we're talking about the results of TM, shouldn't this 
topic title be changed to Sweet Home, alamabana?



Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread Zoran Krneta
Sometimes is good to take rest of everything... including meditation. To do
program regularly is sort of attachment. Enlightenment is everywhere. I did
not find that doing long program is certain path to enlightenment. From time
to time you can do it. But don't bother if you don't. Mediation should give
experience of joy and bliss… if does not... just don't do it and don't feel
guilty.

Zoran



2007/11/19, hugheshugo [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com,
 jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com,
 hugheshugo
  richardhughes103@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com,
 Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
   
   
On Nov 19, 2007, at 12:14 PM, Angela Mailander wrote:
   
 So, it is possible, and I find I often know what someone else
  is
 thinking. But there are literally millions of TMers. You
  can't
 have done enough of a study to determine what percentage of
  them
 are getting it. a
   
   
Honestly, I don't think many are left, at least compared to
 the
numbers that started.
   
It's pretty easy to spot some of the more prevalent
  meditational
issues (like falling asleep), esp. if you're a domer. It's only
   more
recently we've actually had number of TM-sidhi people being
investigated by experienced yogins for meditational disorders
  and
damage. The reports I've heard are that it's a prevalent
 problem
   in
long-term TM-sidhi people, as it tends to cause imbalanced
   awakenings
and a host of issues. How prevalent? It's hard to say.
   
  
   Vaj, can you enlarge on this a bit. Who is this we doing the
   investigating?
  
   I ask because I'm really not sure if the TMSP is doing me any
 good
   anymore, I don't like doing long progs either, I used to but now
  it
   makes me feel shite, really thick-headed, tired and angry,
 nothing
   easy or relaxing about it.
  
   It's easy to just go along with the TMO claims about unstressing
  but
   I've been losing confidence in the whole TM charade for a while
  now,
   maybe that's the cause of it, if you don't believe in the
  supporting
   philosophy perhaps you lose the ability (or will) to transcend.
  
  Speaking from personal experience, what TM and especially the more
  powerful TMSP does, is continue to set up the bodymind or nervous
  system (choose your term...) to experience enlightenment. After
  awhile, the bodymind becomes so attuned to experiencing this that
 it
  is almost ready to sustain it. But, the false identity and the
  couldas, wouldas, and shouldas keep wanting to intrude and get into
  strong conflict with this natural state.
 
  So if you want to give yourself a break and perhaps integrate into
  activity a little more, lay off the siddhis altogether, and just do
  TM 2x a day-- maybe some regular exercise too, just to keep the
  runaway intellect from trying to always intercede and control
  things. It will balance you out and perhaps give you a little bit
  more insight into where your attention needs to be for your
 personal
  issues to be resolved.
 

 Thanks for the advice Jim I know what your saying, but I'm not sure
 my intellect is trying to control anyhting when I meditate. It feels
 like the state of consciousness I get into is putting to much strain
 on me, it's not that I strain it's just like my mind doesn't want
 to be there at all! It's mentally and physically unpleasant. You are
 right though I shall give the sids a miss for a bit, I'd pretty much
 done that anyway.

 I wonder how many stop TM because of things like this. I think Vaj is
 right in that this awakening can go wrong and there is no expertise
 in the TMO to help you cope with it, not that I've ever heard of
 anyway, it's just do more asanas usually.

 



[FairfieldLife] Re: Empty Bill's claims about alamabana

2007-11-19 Thread Rory Goff
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, matrixmonitor 
 matrixmonitor@ wrote:
 
  ---I don't get it.  In reply to the statement that if people 
waste 
  their lives watching the NFL and drinking beer, Rory said This 
 could 
  be just what the doctor ordered.  Sounds like somebody wants to 
 have 
  it both ways. 
  
 Short answer, yes. And no problem with that. Mine was a personal 
 opinion, whereas Rory's was an observation. I should have clarified 
 that *for me*, the way the major religions approach enlightenment 
is 
 like someone who says they want to go bungee jumping, and instead 
of 
 doing so, spends all of their time taking measurements, studying 
 techniques, asking other's opinions, issuing pronouncements on what 
it 
 will feel like when the jump is made, instead of just jumping.

Agreed. It is not likely that watching NFL and drinking beer, and 
*not doing the inner work* will lead to enlightenment. 

Nor is it at all likely that any spiritual practice -- liturgic, 
yogic or otherwise -- that *avoids the inner work* will lead to 
enlightenment. 

From my point of view, that's absolutely OK. 

It is also a waste of time *if* one thinks one is going to get 
enlightenment by pursuing some means that allows them to distract 
themselves from embracing the reality of their own death Here and Now.

And that's perfectly OK too.