[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer" wrote: > > From a friend: > > A friend of mine is very interested in learning TM, though he cannot > afford the current fee of $2500. Does anyone know of an independent TM > teacher who can provide instruction for less, in the San Francisco Bay > Area? It should still be the TM instruction, with puja, checking and > all of that. Thanks. > Deepak has a network of volunteers who travel from city to city and teach his "primordial sound" technique. I have had friends that leaned meditation that way and were very satisfied with the results. One had been initiated in TM and said they were identical. It usually costs about $300 and includes the same sort of follow up you get from TM. http://www.chopra.com/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "uns_tressor" wrote: > > > "boo_lives" > > You mean bad marketers? If TM is the greatest meditation > > ever taught on earth that produces immediate transcending, > > bliss and longer term scientifically proven perfect health, > > support of life in every way, etc etc, then what should it > > matter that some block heads run it? Plus haven't these > > blockheads been practicing this technique that > > works for some 40 yrs now? > > > Learning TM does not suddenly turn people into expert brain > surgeons or F1 motor racing champions. > > Had the blockheads taken their TM benefits to a top professional > course in international marketing, then the TMO would have > really taken off. > > This could yet happen. > Eh, I gave my primo PR advice ot the TMO for years to no avail. The bottom line is that the TMO hasn't been interested in expanding for quite a few years. THat may be changing, however. L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > > > > > > The whole thing is really a very narrow edge. Once > > you realize how exceptionally delicate TM is, it's > > easy to understand how, as MMY said, it could have > > gotten lost over and over again. > > > > Somehow that reminded me of what "our" native teacher of > Hungarian (which is obligatory for the students of the > Finnish language) once said. > > In Hungarian, the stress accent in an interrogative sentence > is always on the second last syllable in that sentence. > The teacher claimed having noticed that those who don't > learn that right away, never learn it! > > There are probably lots of examples analogous to the possible > fact that for some people it's almost impossible to learn > TM correctly, so that it's maximally beneficial. > Except that there's no "right way," and whatever seems like the right way today might be the ":wrong way" tomorrow. And... my attitude is that TM always happens by accident, so even people with entirely the wrong idea are still going to do it right at least some of the time. L.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of boo_lives Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 8:46 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area? 1. Would TM have been a marketing success if people knew that MMY arbitrarily changed the mantra selection criteria from time to time implying there was no real objective connection between the criteria and the suitability of the mantra to the individual? (there was a mild panic on my TTC when after being made teachers many of us realized we were given the "wrong mantra" since MMY had changed the criteria since the time when we had learnt -- MMY basically just told us to not think about it too much and not doubt our mantra.) Maharishi told me that when teaching boys of the same age in a prep school, I should mix up the mantras a bit so that when they compared, they wouldn't all be the same.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
> Had the blockheads taken their TM benefits to a top professional > course in international marketing, then the TMO would have > really taken off. > > This could yet happen. The long form TM commercials were created by a professional marketing company. I don't think the problem is just in the marketing. The public is more immune to claims of panacea cures today. The general public has caught on to the technique of claiming that one thing cures everything and anything that it causes is either "purification" if it feels bad, or the positive proof if anything gets better. And for those who have not caught on there is increasing competition from many peddlers of cure-alls for the human condition. The TM cultural phenomenon is unlikely to have another hayday in these more skeptical market conditions. OTHA this might have been what people believed about the Jesus cult in the second century A.D.! --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "uns_tressor" wrote: > > > "boo_lives" > > You mean bad marketers? If TM is the greatest meditation > > ever taught on earth that produces immediate transcending, > > bliss and longer term scientifically proven perfect health, > > support of life in every way, etc etc, then what should it > > matter that some block heads run it? Plus haven't these > > blockheads been practicing this technique that > > works for some 40 yrs now? > > > Learning TM does not suddenly turn people into expert brain > surgeons or F1 motor racing champions. > > Had the blockheads taken their TM benefits to a top professional > course in international marketing, then the TMO would have > really taken off. > > This could yet happen. >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > wrote: > > When you ask about his banishment you may want to include how he felt > > about them writing him out of the History of the Movement book with > > zero pictures of Jerry in the beginning. Do you know the book I am > > talking about? > > No. Got a link to it for me? I found it: http://tinyurl.com/b589qt To be reprinted: His Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi Thirty Years Around the World Dawn of the Age of Enlightenment It is out of print. I have a copy. It covers years 1957-1964. It has great pictures but Jerry is not in any or mentioned anywhere. Jeryy started SIMS in 1965 so perhaps the next volume (that will never come out like the rest of the Gita commentary!) was supposed to indicate that Jerry had anything at all to do with the growth of the TM movement. It was done during the Jerry black out when he had left his continuous month course Guantanamo period. (without the waterboarding I hope!) I think that was the beginning of the riff, when he decided to leave but Maharishi had wanted him to stay and round out of site. Debbie may have been instrumental in wanting to actually have a life with eyes opened outside TM world. As a side note in reading it again it clears up the two Guru Dev flashy glimpse stories. They were consecutive in the way we all finally concluded in our discussions about it. > > Edg >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
> "boo_lives" > You mean bad marketers? If TM is the greatest meditation > ever taught on earth that produces immediate transcending, > bliss and longer term scientifically proven perfect health, > support of life in every way, etc etc, then what should it > matter that some block heads run it? Plus haven't these > blockheads been practicing this technique that > works for some 40 yrs now? > Learning TM does not suddenly turn people into expert brain surgeons or F1 motor racing champions. Had the blockheads taken their TM benefits to a top professional course in international marketing, then the TMO would have really taken off. This could yet happen.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > > The whole thing is really a very narrow edge. Once > you realize how exceptionally delicate TM is, it's > easy to understand how, as MMY said, it could have > gotten lost over and over again. > Somehow that reminded me of what "our" native teacher of Hungarian (which is obligatory for the students of the Finnish language) once said. In Hungarian, the stress accent in an interrogative sentence is always on the second last syllable in that sentence. The teacher claimed having noticed that those who don't learn that right away, never learn it! There are probably lots of examples analogous to the possible fact that for some people it's almost impossible to learn TM correctly, so that it's maximally beneficial.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
---True! In a larger sense, the case hasn't been made for the benefits of experiencing TC (regardless of what technique is used); or for that matter, the relevance of "Pure Consciousness" to virtually anybody. I work in a medium sized Co. with 200 people and since 1982 only 2 people have expressed any interest whatsoever in "Pure Consciousness". One person appeared to me in a dream asking some questions. I tried to adress her inquiry (in person - physically) using some of the standard MMY-type analogies; but no further interest on her part. Another person mentioned his interest in Paul Bruntun, a theosophical-type of writer who wrote a popular book on (I think - "Living with a Great Master in India" or something like that. So I showed him some photos of Paul Brunton, one of which shows him standing right next to Ramana Maharshi. Aside from those two people since 1982, I can't detect any any interest in "Pure Consciousness", non-dualism, or any Wilber-esque topics at all. No interest in Buddhism, or Hinduism. So, regardless of whether it's TM, or mindfulness, or any other such technique designed to cut through the dualistic fallacy, I haven't seen much interest in such things since the 60's and 70's. In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "boo_lives" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "boo_lives" wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > > > > > > > I remember Jerry Jarvis telling us that "No one quits TM. They get > > > > off the program and don't know it and don't come in for checking, so > > > > they stop getting results and think that TM has failed instead > of the > > > > truth being that the "new technique they've slipped into" has > failed. > > > > > > > > Edg > > > > > > > That's like saying all diets work, it's the people who can't stick to > > > them forever who are at fault. TM claims to be a completely natural > > > effortless spontaneous process based on the natural tendency of the > > > mind but if someone stops then suddenly they're not "doing it right" > > > and the mind seems to have naturally slipped into something else than > > > the transcendent. Part of the success or lack thereof of any self > > > development technique is the ability of the typical person to stick to > > > it and do it properly. > > > > > > That some people can't do TM right and many easily stop doing it right > > > needs to be acknowledged. > > > > > > Plus IMO based on decades of experience talking with hundreds of long > > > term meditators, the benefits of TM which may seem great at first to a > > > stress out person do not continue forever - there are diminishing > > > returns to a relaxation technique. This is why many people quit TM > > > without any feeling of blame or failure, their experience is just that > > > the experience it provides is no longer that important to them and > > > they move on to the next step for them. > > > > > > > It depends on what you mean. Certainly, people can notice benefits > > less as time goes on, but not all benefits are obvious to the person. > > > > Example: reductions in BP of only a few points may be medically > significant, > > but almost no-one on the planet would notice a fluctuation that > small based > > on their own internal sensations. > > > > Lawson > > > That's true. And someone who learns TM to normalize a medically > dangerous BP level should not rely on internal sensations but > objective measurements to determine if TM is working or not. > > My pt though is that TM may be good for a wide variety of stress > related issues, both physical and psychological, but it's not good for > everything. The basic TM philosophy is that TM continually improves > all aspects of life until that life is enlightened and literally > perfect in almost every way. That fact the TM helped your blood > pressure does not means it's now going to move on and take care of > your deep childhood traumas, problems in your brain chemistry, or any > number of other issues that limit a person's life and happiness. I > certainly don't see that happening in long term meditators and I > don't believe that people stop because they just aren't noticing the > continually deepening benefits. I think most stop because they > realize on a deep inner level that the TM experience is just not > addressing/resolving the issues that are now center stage for them. > > Of course some will say that's why MMY came out with sidhis, ayurved > and the whole hodge podge of products and services that the movt now > sells - to supplement TM. IMO this is where things really went south. > I think it's just fine if someone learns TM as long as they practice > innocently and don't buy all the hype and belief structure and by all > means be wary of the sidhis and movt culture which I feel are a > spiritual detour and dangerous to many. Let the
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "boo_lives" wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > > > > > I remember Jerry Jarvis telling us that "No one quits TM. They get > > > off the program and don't know it and don't come in for checking, so > > > they stop getting results and think that TM has failed instead of the > > > truth being that the "new technique they've slipped into" has failed. > > > > > > Edg > > > > > That's like saying all diets work, it's the people who can't stick to > > them forever who are at fault. TM claims to be a completely natural > > effortless spontaneous process based on the natural tendency of the > > mind but if someone stops then suddenly they're not "doing it right" > > and the mind seems to have naturally slipped into something else than > > the transcendent. Part of the success or lack thereof of any self > > development technique is the ability of the typical person to stick to > > it and do it properly. > > > > That some people can't do TM right and many easily stop doing it right > > needs to be acknowledged. > > > > Plus IMO based on decades of experience talking with hundreds of long > > term meditators, the benefits of TM which may seem great at first to a > > stress out person do not continue forever - there are diminishing > > returns to a relaxation technique. This is why many people quit TM > > without any feeling of blame or failure, their experience is just that > > the experience it provides is no longer that important to them and > > they move on to the next step for them. > > > > It depends on what you mean. Certainly, people can notice benefits > less as time goes on, but not all benefits are obvious to the person. > > Example: reductions in BP of only a few points may be medically significant, > but almost no-one on the planet would notice a fluctuation that small based > on their own internal sensations. > > Lawson > That's true. And someone who learns TM to normalize a medically dangerous BP level should not rely on internal sensations but objective measurements to determine if TM is working or not. My pt though is that TM may be good for a wide variety of stress related issues, both physical and psychological, but it's not good for everything. The basic TM philosophy is that TM continually improves all aspects of life until that life is enlightened and literally perfect in almost every way. That fact the TM helped your blood pressure does not means it's now going to move on and take care of your deep childhood traumas, problems in your brain chemistry, or any number of other issues that limit a person's life and happiness. I certainly don't see that happening in long term meditators and I don't believe that people stop because they just aren't noticing the continually deepening benefits. I think most stop because they realize on a deep inner level that the TM experience is just not addressing/resolving the issues that are now center stage for them. Of course some will say that's why MMY came out with sidhis, ayurved and the whole hodge podge of products and services that the movt now sells - to supplement TM. IMO this is where things really went south. I think it's just fine if someone learns TM as long as they practice innocently and don't buy all the hype and belief structure and by all means be wary of the sidhis and movt culture which I feel are a spiritual detour and dangerous to many. Let the natural experience of TM help you with whatever - there's probably a good reason you were drawn to it - as long as it can, but have no fear about incorporating other practices when the time comes. Though I don't consider myself an expert I'd especially recommend to TMers practices that incorporate more fully the breath and body and specifically address deep seated emotional issues.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "boo_lives" wrote: > TM claims to be a completely natural > effortless spontaneous process based on the natural > tendency of the mind but if someone stops then > suddenly they're not "doing it right" and the mind > seems to have naturally slipped into something else > than the transcendent. Part of the success or lack > thereof of any self development technique is the > ability of the typical person to stick to it and do > it properly. True. But that (a) TM is "a completely natural effortless technique" etc. and that (b) some/many people have trouble "doing it right" are not mutually contradictory. It's a "completely natural effortless technique" etc. *when it's done right*. I've always thought it was amazing that TM could be taught successfully at all, because it's so completely contrary to the way we "do" anything else (with the exception of falling asleep). > That some people can't do TM right and many > easily stop doing it right needs to be > acknowledged. Whether some people "can't do TM right" is arguable. Whether "no one" quits TM is arguable. But it seems to me the importance placed on regular checking is at least a tacit acknowledgment that many people "easily stop doing it right." What would happen if the acknowledgment weren't just tacit, if TM teachers warned constantly of how easy it was to get off track? For one thing, it would most likely increase the number of TMers who *do* get off track because they'd be worrying about whether they were doing it right; they'd lose the "innocence" of the practice. The whole thing is really a very narrow edge. Once you realize how exceptionally delicate TM is, it's easy to understand how, as MMY said, it could have gotten lost over and over again.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote: > > > On Jan 23, 2009, at 10:49 AM, Duveyoung wrote: > > > I remember Jerry Jarvis telling us that "No one quits TM. They get > > off the program and don't know it and don't come in for checking, so > > they stop getting results and think that TM has failed instead of the > > truth being that the "new technique they've slipped into" has failed. > > > Well that could very well be a dynamic for people "falling out" of > their practice--any practice, not just TM. > > I just don't trust the way he's parsing it which is as if to say "TM > is perfect in it's instruction and it's checking, so therefore the > only things that's wrong if you quit or fade out of practice, is > YOU." I just don't buy that. But it is interesting how well he parses > his arrogance. It's an arrogance with all the sharp edges filed off > and felt applied. > > IMO the ideal meditation technique will always be the one "hand- > crafted" to the student who is known by the teacher and changes as > they change. Eventually the student gains the maturity to make the > necessary changes on their own. Or maybe I'm fortunate in that that's > how my teachers have taught me. It's a road to independence rather > than dependence. > > If 10 years have gone by and you're still hanging around the same > teacher, it just might be time to wonder why you haven't gained your > independence. > >From my perspective, TM is "hand-crafted" by its nature. IMparting the technique may be flowcharted, but what actualy happens, isn't. TM's the ultimate example of the "unfathomable are the ways of karma" line. Whatever happens, happens. L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "boo_lives" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > > > I remember Jerry Jarvis telling us that "No one quits TM. They get > > off the program and don't know it and don't come in for checking, so > > they stop getting results and think that TM has failed instead of the > > truth being that the "new technique they've slipped into" has failed. > > > > Edg > > > That's like saying all diets work, it's the people who can't stick to > them forever who are at fault. TM claims to be a completely natural > effortless spontaneous process based on the natural tendency of the > mind but if someone stops then suddenly they're not "doing it right" > and the mind seems to have naturally slipped into something else than > the transcendent. Part of the success or lack thereof of any self > development technique is the ability of the typical person to stick to > it and do it properly. > > That some people can't do TM right and many easily stop doing it right > needs to be acknowledged. > > Plus IMO based on decades of experience talking with hundreds of long > term meditators, the benefits of TM which may seem great at first to a > stress out person do not continue forever - there are diminishing > returns to a relaxation technique. This is why many people quit TM > without any feeling of blame or failure, their experience is just that > the experience it provides is no longer that important to them and > they move on to the next step for them. > It depends on what you mean. Certainly, people can notice benefits less as time goes on, but not all benefits are obvious to the person. Example: reductions in BP of only a few points may be medically significant, but almost no-one on the planet would notice a fluctuation that small based on their own internal sensations. Lawson
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
> I just don't trust the way he's parsing it which is as if to say "TM > is perfect in it's instruction and it's checking, so therefore the > only things that's wrong if you quit or fade out of practice, is > YOU." I just don't buy that. But it is interesting how well he parses > his arrogance. It's an arrogance with all the sharp edges filed off > and felt applied. Well said Vaj! --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote: > > > On Jan 23, 2009, at 10:49 AM, Duveyoung wrote: > > > I remember Jerry Jarvis telling us that "No one quits TM. They get > > off the program and don't know it and don't come in for checking, so > > they stop getting results and think that TM has failed instead of the > > truth being that the "new technique they've slipped into" has failed. > > > Well that could very well be a dynamic for people "falling out" of > their practice--any practice, not just TM. > > I just don't trust the way he's parsing it which is as if to say "TM > is perfect in it's instruction and it's checking, so therefore the > only things that's wrong if you quit or fade out of practice, is > YOU." I just don't buy that. But it is interesting how well he parses > his arrogance. It's an arrogance with all the sharp edges filed off > and felt applied. > > IMO the ideal meditation technique will always be the one "hand- > crafted" to the student who is known by the teacher and changes as > they change. Eventually the student gains the maturity to make the > necessary changes on their own. Or maybe I'm fortunate in that that's > how my teachers have taught me. It's a road to independence rather > than dependence. > > If 10 years have gone by and you're still hanging around the same > teacher, it just might be time to wonder why you haven't gained your > independence. >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > I remember Jerry Jarvis telling us that "No one quits TM. They get > off the program and don't know it and don't come in for checking, so > they stop getting results and think that TM has failed instead of the > truth being that the "new technique they've slipped into" has failed. > > Edg > That's like saying all diets work, it's the people who can't stick to them forever who are at fault. TM claims to be a completely natural effortless spontaneous process based on the natural tendency of the mind but if someone stops then suddenly they're not "doing it right" and the mind seems to have naturally slipped into something else than the transcendent. Part of the success or lack thereof of any self development technique is the ability of the typical person to stick to it and do it properly. That some people can't do TM right and many easily stop doing it right needs to be acknowledged. Plus IMO based on decades of experience talking with hundreds of long term meditators, the benefits of TM which may seem great at first to a stress out person do not continue forever - there are diminishing returns to a relaxation technique. This is why many people quit TM without any feeling of blame or failure, their experience is just that the experience it provides is no longer that important to them and they move on to the next step for them.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
On Jan 23, 2009, at 10:49 AM, Duveyoung wrote: I remember Jerry Jarvis telling us that "No one quits TM. They get off the program and don't know it and don't come in for checking, so they stop getting results and think that TM has failed instead of the truth being that the "new technique they've slipped into" has failed. Well that could very well be a dynamic for people "falling out" of their practice--any practice, not just TM. I just don't trust the way he's parsing it which is as if to say "TM is perfect in it's instruction and it's checking, so therefore the only things that's wrong if you quit or fade out of practice, is YOU." I just don't buy that. But it is interesting how well he parses his arrogance. It's an arrogance with all the sharp edges filed off and felt applied. IMO the ideal meditation technique will always be the one "hand- crafted" to the student who is known by the teacher and changes as they change. Eventually the student gains the maturity to make the necessary changes on their own. Or maybe I'm fortunate in that that's how my teachers have taught me. It's a road to independence rather than dependence. If 10 years have gone by and you're still hanging around the same teacher, it just might be time to wonder why you haven't gained your independence.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" wrote: When you ask about his banishment you may want to include how he felt > about them writing him out of the History of the Movement book with > zero pictures of Jerry in the beginning. Do you know the book I am > talking about? No. Got a link to it for me? Edg
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > I remember Jerry Jarvis telling us that "No one quits TM. They get > off the program and don't know it and don't come in for checking, so > they stop getting results and think that TM has failed instead of the> truth being that the "new technique they've slipped into" has failed. > > Edg This is the position of absolute surety that I find annoying in the movement. I meditated just fine and still do when I want to. Challenging the pre-suppositions of what TM does for you is not an option in his world. True believers can act nicely but their is always this condescending edge behind the smile. Because of it he will be managing your questions rather than answering them. His greatest skill in deflecting criticism was coming up with cute sayings and laughing at his own jokes like Maharishi. He created a vibe of total self-satisfaction and as a young person I thought it meant that he had it all under control. Having met more people who use that deflection technique through the years I no longer give it that much credit. It is just a crowd management technique and not a way to take people's intellectual criticism seriously. When you ask about his banishment you may want to include how he felt about them writing him out of the History of the Movement book with zero pictures of Jerry in the beginning. Do you know the book I am talking about? I wonder what his take is on the Rajas and if he believes that Tony Nader is really representing enlightenment the way he believed Maharishis was. I could almost answer the list for him in Jerry-speak SIMS shuffle lingo but I hope he surprises us. I would be very pleased to have a less cocksure know-it-all Jerry reveal a more human side, including his own doubts. But I'm not going to hold my breath for that! At the time I knew him the age difference was too great to expect more candidness. He takes his defender of the faith role pretty seriously and didn't view any of us as true peers. So it will be interesting to see if he is capable of dropping that shield with you Edg. I would regain a lot of respect for him if he could express comfort in what he doesn't understand. Nice project Edg. This is going to stimulate some interesting conversations here, and already had! > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote: > > > > > > On Jan 23, 2009, at 9:34 AM, uns_tressor wrote: > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote: > > >> > > >> 1. Would TM have been a marketing success if > > >> people knew that ... > > >> > > > "Would", Vaj ? > > > > > > TM has been a marketing success in the past, because IT WORKS, > > > Vaj. And the checking system works. A great deal more than can > > > be said of many systems. > > > > > > It is not a marketing success right now because the TMO is run > > > by block heads. > > > > > > I believe you should be responding to "Boo" since s/he wrote what > > you've copied above, not I. > > > > But I will add that the checking procedure and by nature, any canned > > checking procedure will not and cannot take into account that things > > are always changing: people are and circumstances are changing. So > > therefore there will always be some person or circumstance that > > canned checking measures will miss. They must continue to evolve > > rather than become fixed or canonical. We periodically hear from > > people on this list with meditative disorders from their TM practice > > that are NOT rectified by the checking procedure despite repeated > > attempts. It may also be that the only person who can truly check > > your meditation is a meditation master with a profound level of > > experience. A memorized flowchart can never rise to the level of that > > experience of mastery. One is the mechanic who reads a manual to fix > > your car, the other knows your car inside out and just fixes only > > what is wrong. > > > > So I'd disagree with your emphatic "IT WORKS" since there has to be a > > reason so many quit. Perhaps it only works for a small subset and > > there are some who it doesn't work for who just stick around anyways. > > >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
I remember Jerry Jarvis telling us that "No one quits TM. They get off the program and don't know it and don't come in for checking, so they stop getting results and think that TM has failed instead of the truth being that the "new technique they've slipped into" has failed. Edg --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote: > > > On Jan 23, 2009, at 9:34 AM, uns_tressor wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote: > >> > >> 1. Would TM have been a marketing success if > >> people knew that ... > >> > > "Would", Vaj ? > > > > TM has been a marketing success in the past, because IT WORKS, > > Vaj. And the checking system works. A great deal more than can > > be said of many systems. > > > > It is not a marketing success right now because the TMO is run > > by block heads. > > > I believe you should be responding to "Boo" since s/he wrote what > you've copied above, not I. > > But I will add that the checking procedure and by nature, any canned > checking procedure will not and cannot take into account that things > are always changing: people are and circumstances are changing. So > therefore there will always be some person or circumstance that > canned checking measures will miss. They must continue to evolve > rather than become fixed or canonical. We periodically hear from > people on this list with meditative disorders from their TM practice > that are NOT rectified by the checking procedure despite repeated > attempts. It may also be that the only person who can truly check > your meditation is a meditation master with a profound level of > experience. A memorized flowchart can never rise to the level of that > experience of mastery. One is the mechanic who reads a manual to fix > your car, the other knows your car inside out and just fixes only > what is wrong. > > So I'd disagree with your emphatic "IT WORKS" since there has to be a > reason so many quit. Perhaps it only works for a small subset and > there are some who it doesn't work for who just stick around anyways. >
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
On Jan 23, 2009, at 9:34 AM, uns_tressor wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote: 1. Would TM have been a marketing success if people knew that ... "Would", Vaj ? TM has been a marketing success in the past, because IT WORKS, Vaj. And the checking system works. A great deal more than can be said of many systems. It is not a marketing success right now because the TMO is run by block heads. I believe you should be responding to "Boo" since s/he wrote what you've copied above, not I. But I will add that the checking procedure and by nature, any canned checking procedure will not and cannot take into account that things are always changing: people are and circumstances are changing. So therefore there will always be some person or circumstance that canned checking measures will miss. They must continue to evolve rather than become fixed or canonical. We periodically hear from people on this list with meditative disorders from their TM practice that are NOT rectified by the checking procedure despite repeated attempts. It may also be that the only person who can truly check your meditation is a meditation master with a profound level of experience. A memorized flowchart can never rise to the level of that experience of mastery. One is the mechanic who reads a manual to fix your car, the other knows your car inside out and just fixes only what is wrong. So I'd disagree with your emphatic "IT WORKS" since there has to be a reason so many quit. Perhaps it only works for a small subset and there are some who it doesn't work for who just stick around anyways.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "uns_tressor" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote: > > > > 1. Would TM have been a marketing success if > > people knew that ... > > > "Would", Vaj ? > > TM has been a marketing success in the past, because IT WORKS, > Vaj. And the checking system works. A great deal more than can > be said of many systems. > > It is not a marketing success right now because the TMO is run > by block heads. > You mean bad marketers? If TM is the greatest meditation ever taught on earth that produces immediate transcending, bliss and longer term scientifically proven perfect health, support of life in every way, etc etc, then what should it matter that some block heads run it? Plus haven't these blockheads been practicing this technique that works for some 40 yrs now? Hasn't MMY, who I assume you consider to be the "greatest sage to ever walk the earth" as they say now in the tmo, consistently praised the enlightenment of these blockheads and put them in charge? Plus this great sage has consistently supported the high price tag as appropriate for this great technique that works so well. What about all the millions who started TM in the past who have stopped. Did the blockheads make them stop this technique that works so well for everyone?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote: > > 1. Would TM have been a marketing success if > people knew that ... > "Would", Vaj ? TM has been a marketing success in the past, because IT WORKS, Vaj. And the checking system works. A great deal more than can be said of many systems. It is not a marketing success right now because the TMO is run by block heads.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > IIRC part of the pledge of the TM teacher was to teach > it under the circumstances dictated by MMY and/or the > organizations he created to carry out his mission. > If this is true, then it introduces a moral issue, distinct from the issue of what TM is. The trouble is that the TMO could not be depended on to sell ice cream on a hot summer's afternoon. There is a feeling that maybe, just maybe, the independents could provide a marketing solution that is at least half way to adequate. Can nobody find a way to kick some sense into the TMO?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "dhamiltony2k5" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer" wrote: > > > > From a friend: > > > > A friend of mine is very interested in learning TM, though he cannot > > afford the current fee of $2500. Does anyone know of an independent > >TM > > teacher who can provide instruction for less, in the San Francisco > >Bay > > Area? It should still be the TM instruction, with puja, checking and > > all of that. Thanks. > > > > > Looking for a cheaper TM? Is the official TM taught in the schools > there as "Quiet Time" meditation in the schools too expensive? > That's taught through the David Lynch FOundation, at $600 per student. You can't get that rate as an individual, as far as I know, and the school and/or students don't pay for it. THe Foundation does. L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" wrote: > > > IIRC part of the pledge of the TM teacher was to teach it under the > > circumstances dictated by MMY and/or the organizations he created to > > carry out his mission. SO the question arises: if someone violates a > > promise in one sense, do you trust them to not violate the promise > in> another. > > > > So I'm guessing that if Maharishi himself was found to be untruthful > to his own promises than the same standard applies, right? what standard is that? A promise isn't made to someone else, but to yourself, regardless of the form its in. L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
> IIRC part of the pledge of the TM teacher was to teach it under the > circumstances dictated by MMY and/or the organizations he created to > carry out his mission. SO the question arises: if someone violates a > promise in one sense, do you trust them to not violate the promise in> another. > So I'm guessing that if Maharishi himself was found to be untruthful to his own promises than the same standard applies, right? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "uns_tressor" wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "dhamiltony2k5" > > wrote: > > > Well, yes but it is not 'TM' of course because it is not taught > > > through the TM organization. > > > > > The definition of TM is "Transcendental Meditation as taught by > > Maharishi Mahesh Yogi". > > > > It must be true that, if what is being taught is that, then > > it is TM, whether it is taught through the movement or not. > > Uns. > > > > IIRC part of the pledge of the TM teacher was to teach it under the > circumstances dictated by MMY and/or the organizations he created to > carry out his mission. SO the question arises: if someone violates a > promise in one sense, do you trust them to not violate the promise in > another. > > L >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "uns_tressor" wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "dhamiltony2k5" > > wrote: > > > Well, yes but it is not 'TM' of course because it is not taught > > > through the TM organization. > > > > > The definition of TM is "Transcendental Meditation as taught by > > Maharishi Mahesh Yogi". > > > > It must be true that, if what is being taught is that, then > > it is TM, whether it is taught through the movement or not. > > Uns. > > > > IIRC part of the pledge of the TM teacher was to teach it under the > circumstances dictated by MMY and/or the organizations he created to > carry out his mission. SO the question arises: if someone violates a > promise in one sense, do you trust them to not violate the promise in > another. > > L That's right, you can't. And it is a great responsebility for anyone to recommend someone for a so-called "independent teacher". I challenged Mr. Rick Archer on this point a few days back, but ofcourse he choose not to respond to the responsebility of the situation he created. What an irresponsible coward; a true representative of outgoing energies; like Bush, Cheney & Co. This has been obvious for the last 4-5 years already and will become even more obvious as times go by. If some poor non-rectified fellow, out of greed, ego or whatever, outside of the TMO promise to teach according to the teachings of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi he is trying to fool not only his "students" but also himself and his good karma.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "uns_tressor" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "dhamiltony2k5" > wrote: > > Well, yes but it is not 'TM' of course because it is not taught > > through the TM organization. > > > The definition of TM is "Transcendental Meditation as taught by > Maharishi Mahesh Yogi". > > It must be true that, if what is being taught is that, then > it is TM, whether it is taught through the movement or not. > Uns. > IIRC part of the pledge of the TM teacher was to teach it under the circumstances dictated by MMY and/or the organizations he created to carry out his mission. SO the question arises: if someone violates a promise in one sense, do you trust them to not violate the promise in another. L
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "uns_tressor" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "uns_tressor" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "dhamiltony2k5" > > > wrote: > > > > Well, yes but it is not 'TM' of course because it > > > > is not taught through the TM organization. > > > > > > > The definition of TM is "Transcendental Meditation as > > > taught by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi". > > > > > > It must be true that, if what is being taught is that, then > > > it is TM, whether it is taught through the movement or not. > > > > But "taught through the movement" is part of "as taught by," > > for better or for worse. > > > I don't agree. So long as the product is identical, then it > will be TM. > > "Taught through the movement" seems to me to be a commercial > issue. It isn't a matter of agreement or whether the product is identical. My point is that if you don't accept the TMO's definition, you can't very well cite it as authoritative! It's more than just commercial, I think, in any case. If the teacher isn't teaching through the movement, there's no way for the student to be sure s/he *is* getting the identical product. It's a "quality control" measure, in other words.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "uns_tressor" > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "dhamiltony2k5" > > wrote: > > > Well, yes but it is not 'TM' of course because it is not taught > > > through the TM organization. > > > > > The definition of TM is "Transcendental Meditation as taught by > > Maharishi Mahesh Yogi". > > > > It must be true that, if what is being taught is that, then > > it is TM, whether it is taught through the movement or not. > > But "taught through the movement" is part of "as taught by," > for better or for worse. > I don't agree. So long as the product is identical, then it will be TM. "Taught through the movement" seems to me to be a commercial issue.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer" wrote: > > From a friend: > > A friend of mine is very interested in learning TM, though he cannot > afford the current fee of $2500. Does anyone know of an independent >TM > teacher who can provide instruction for less, in the San Francisco >Bay > Area? It should still be the TM instruction, with puja, checking and > all of that. Thanks. > Looking for a cheaper TM? Is the official TM taught in the schools there as "Quiet Time" meditation in the schools too expensive?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
TurquoiseB wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu wrote:
>
>> TurquoiseB wrote:
>>
>>> Another is the fact that many teachers really
>>> *did* feel a "buzz" from doing puja. I never
>>> felt much of one, but some did, and they assoc-
>>> iate that buzz with magical thinking and feel
>>> that something about *their* buzz helped give
>>> their initiates a buzz, too.
>>>
>>
>> That certainly explains a lot! :-D
>>
>
> Bhairitu, because I like you I'll reply
> again, without the Snide Factor. It's
> just that when you get on your "It works
> because it's magic, and because *I* am
> magic because *I* have been taught to
> manifest 'shakti'" soapbox, I react with
> the same uncontrollable laughter as when
> I hear similar things from TM TBs.
>
> Put this into perspective, eh? You are
> advancing the argument that the important
> thing in the teaching of meditation is
> NOT the techniques themselves, but the
> "magic" ("shakti") with which they are
> taught.
>
> I, on the other hand, am advancing the
> argument that sometimes techniques just
> work because they work.
>
> That frees me to not develop any kind of
> self-importance because they worked when
> I was teaching them. With the belief
> system you espouse, you pretty much have
> to assume that an important part of *why*
> the things you teach work is the fact
> that *you* have developed special, magical
> powers to "make" them work.
>
> That may float your boat, but it doesn't
> float mine. In my experience, teaching
> someone to, say, focus their attention on
> the heart chakra works just fine, and the
> students have *remarkable* results with
> the practice. And they have those results
> *without* me thinking that anything *I*
> did "made" those results possible.
>
> If you believe the things you're saying,
> you can't believe that. You pretty much
> have to believe that the simple technique
> wouldn't work as well if it hadn't been
> "amped up" by your own shakti, and your
> own personal power, and by...well...you.
>
> I'm not being nihilist; I'm being honest.
> If the techniques in question work, they
> don't need the trappings of magic or
> magical thinking to "make" them work.
> And if the techniques *do* need to con-
> vince both students and teachers that all
> this magical thinking is necessary to
> "make" them work, maybe they just don't
> work, and the only thing that convinces
> people that they do is their own addiction
> to magical thinking.
>
> Something that a humble person might ponder.
I just had to give you a hard time because you claimed you never got a
buzz off the puja (or seldom did) and yet I know lots of people
(including myself) that did including from pujas from other systems.
Indians are a pretty lazy bunch and if this stuff didn't work they would
drop it in a heartbeat. But these things have survived for thousands of
years.
I'm not saying I'm anything special, its just my experience and also the
experience of many others I know. In fact I am more puzzled by people
who don't have that experience.
The tantric concept is that you build up shakti in your system sort of
like a battery. This comes even from just doing a "simple technique"
twice a day. There are more powerful techniques which can be learned to
really build up shakti. Of course you can put this in the "belief
realm" if you want but I have it from the experience realm. As one of
my astrology teachers who was also a tantric once told me when I told
him I learned to teach TM but wasn't using it anymore he said, "it
doesn't matter, once you have been initiated then you can enliven any
mantra." So since you DID learn mantra meditation and practiced it for
a number of years we have no idea how much that has influenced any later
teaching you did.
As for your being a nihilist, IMHO that is how you come off at the
moment to others and I think it is a phase. Something will happen which
will change that. But I've been there myself so that is why I know
something will change that perspective.
And my tantra guru will hammer down anyone with an "I am something"
attitude.
There's my two cents for what it's worth and I'm sure that and a $1.85
will get me a Americano at Starbucks. ;-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu wrote:
>
> TurquoiseB wrote:
> > Another is the fact that many teachers really
> > *did* feel a "buzz" from doing puja. I never
> > felt much of one, but some did, and they assoc-
> > iate that buzz with magical thinking and feel
> > that something about *their* buzz helped give
> > their initiates a buzz, too.
>
> That certainly explains a lot! :-D
Bhairitu, because I like you I'll reply
again, without the Snide Factor. It's
just that when you get on your "It works
because it's magic, and because *I* am
magic because *I* have been taught to
manifest 'shakti'" soapbox, I react with
the same uncontrollable laughter as when
I hear similar things from TM TBs.
Put this into perspective, eh? You are
advancing the argument that the important
thing in the teaching of meditation is
NOT the techniques themselves, but the
"magic" ("shakti") with which they are
taught.
I, on the other hand, am advancing the
argument that sometimes techniques just
work because they work.
That frees me to not develop any kind of
self-importance because they worked when
I was teaching them. With the belief
system you espouse, you pretty much have
to assume that an important part of *why*
the things you teach work is the fact
that *you* have developed special, magical
powers to "make" them work.
That may float your boat, but it doesn't
float mine. In my experience, teaching
someone to, say, focus their attention on
the heart chakra works just fine, and the
students have *remarkable* results with
the practice. And they have those results
*without* me thinking that anything *I*
did "made" those results possible.
If you believe the things you're saying,
you can't believe that. You pretty much
have to believe that the simple technique
wouldn't work as well if it hadn't been
"amped up" by your own shakti, and your
own personal power, and by...well...you.
I'm not being nihilist; I'm being honest.
If the techniques in question work, they
don't need the trappings of magic or
magical thinking to "make" them work.
And if the techniques *do* need to con-
vince both students and teachers that all
this magical thinking is necessary to
"make" them work, maybe they just don't
work, and the only thing that convinces
people that they do is their own addiction
to magical thinking.
Something that a humble person might ponder.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
---True - it's the Shakti (but not much of that in Spain). In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu wrote: > > > > TurquoiseB wrote: > > > Another is the fact that many teachers really > > > *did* feel a "buzz" from doing puja. I never > > > felt much of one, but some did, and they assoc- > > > iate that buzz with magical thinking and feel > > > that something about *their* buzz helped give > > > their initiates a buzz, too. > > > > That certainly explains a lot! :-D > > It does, if you're not stuck in ego and the > need to feel all "special." :-) > > > I always got a buzz from the puja which I associate with > > shakti but then I also had the kundalini rise the very first > > time I tried meditation ... > > How special. :-) > > > from a book which I wouldn't recommend to anyone but for some > > reason it worked for me (and the results disorienting). I > > stand by my assertion that the puja is used to get at least > > enough shakti going that the mantras would work regardless > > of who was teaching. Otherwise it would have taken years to > > get a troupe of teachers going and spread TM. > > So you're saying, essentially, that it's the > "specialness" of the teacher and their ability > to generate "shakti" that makes the technique > in question work, not the technique itself. > What an interestingly egocentric view. :-) > > > If you had some success teaching meditation to people without > > the puja then it is because a) you either got charged up enough > > that the mantras were charged anyway, b) that (most likely) the > > people you were teaching were spiritually oriented or had > > spiritual past that having them meditate on "toe cheese" > > would have worked. > > Or c) that shakti has nothing whatsoever to do > with it, and those who are convinced that it's > what made *their* teaching or *their* initiation > "special" are just longing to be special. :-) > > > And of course I'm not restricting this to mantra meditation > > either as you have said before you taught non mantra meditation. > > I understand. Gotta cover your stance's ass. It > was because either I was "special" or the magical > techniques I was teaching were "special." It > couldn't have *possibly* been because the tech- > niques in question just *worked*, with no > "specialness" was needed, right? :-) > > > It is probably not magical at all but some laws of physics and > > sound physics at work. > > I would have said, "the techniques worked because > they work, not because of any specialness bullshit," > but whatever floats your boat. :-) > > > As a tantric I am allowed to play around with mantras > > a bit > > How "special" for you. Good thing you were > "allowed" to do this or the magic might have > fried your gonads or something. :-) > > > ...and have noted the effects on different centers of the brain > > with different mantras and thus why these mantras can produce > > different physiological effects. Much of this has been documented > > in ayurveda. > > Of course not. Then you wouldn't be as "special." :-) > > > Of course you're in a nihilist phase so you see all of this as > > TB'er stuff even when it isn't. :-D > > Of course you're in a "I'm so special" phase, > so you're fairly insufferable when you get > like this. Fortunately I practice compassion > *and* have a short memory, and don't hold it > against you. :-) >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu wrote: > > TurquoiseB wrote: > > Another is the fact that many teachers really > > *did* feel a "buzz" from doing puja. I never > > felt much of one, but some did, and they assoc- > > iate that buzz with magical thinking and feel > > that something about *their* buzz helped give > > their initiates a buzz, too. > > That certainly explains a lot! :-D It does, if you're not stuck in ego and the need to feel all "special." :-) > I always got a buzz from the puja which I associate with > shakti but then I also had the kundalini rise the very first > time I tried meditation ... How special. :-) > from a book which I wouldn't recommend to anyone but for some > reason it worked for me (and the results disorienting). I > stand by my assertion that the puja is used to get at least > enough shakti going that the mantras would work regardless > of who was teaching. Otherwise it would have taken years to > get a troupe of teachers going and spread TM. So you're saying, essentially, that it's the "specialness" of the teacher and their ability to generate "shakti" that makes the technique in question work, not the technique itself. What an interestingly egocentric view. :-) > If you had some success teaching meditation to people without > the puja then it is because a) you either got charged up enough > that the mantras were charged anyway, b) that (most likely) the > people you were teaching were spiritually oriented or had > spiritual past that having them meditate on "toe cheese" > would have worked. Or c) that shakti has nothing whatsoever to do with it, and those who are convinced that it's what made *their* teaching or *their* initiation "special" are just longing to be special. :-) > And of course I'm not restricting this to mantra meditation > either as you have said before you taught non mantra meditation. I understand. Gotta cover your stance's ass. It was because either I was "special" or the magical techniques I was teaching were "special." It couldn't have *possibly* been because the tech- niques in question just *worked*, with no "specialness" was needed, right? :-) > It is probably not magical at all but some laws of physics and > sound physics at work. I would have said, "the techniques worked because they work, not because of any specialness bullshit," but whatever floats your boat. :-) > As a tantric I am allowed to play around with mantras > a bit How "special" for you. Good thing you were "allowed" to do this or the magic might have fried your gonads or something. :-) > ...and have noted the effects on different centers of the brain > with different mantras and thus why these mantras can produce > different physiological effects. Much of this has been documented > in ayurveda. Of course not. Then you wouldn't be as "special." :-) > Of course you're in a nihilist phase so you see all of this as > TB'er stuff even when it isn't. :-D Of course you're in a "I'm so special" phase, so you're fairly insufferable when you get like this. Fortunately I practice compassion *and* have a short memory, and don't hold it against you. :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
TurquoiseB wrote: > Another is the fact that many teachers really > *did* feel a "buzz" from doing puja. I never > felt much of one, but some did, and they assoc- > iate that buzz with magical thinking and feel > that something about *their* buzz helped give > their initiates a buzz, too. > That certainly explains a lot! :-D I always got a buzz from the puja which I associate with shakti but then I also had the kundalini rise the very first time I tried meditation ... from a book which I wouldn't recommend to anyone but for some reason it worked for me (and the results disorienting). I stand by my assertion that the puja is used to get at least enough shakti going that the mantras would work regardless of who was teaching. Otherwise it would have taken years to get a troupe of teachers going and spread TM. If you had some success teaching meditation to people without the puja then it is because a) you either got charged up enough that the mantras were charged anyway, b) that (most likely) the people you were teaching were spiritually oriented or had spiritual past that having them meditate on "toe cheese" would have worked. And of course I'm not restricting this to mantra meditation either as you have said before you taught non mantra meditation. It is probably not magical at all but some laws of physics and sound physics at work. As a tantric I am allowed to play around with mantras a bit and have noted the effects on different centers of the brain with different mantras and thus why these mantras can produce different physiological effects. Much of this has been documented in ayurveda. Of course you're in a nihilist phase so you see all of this as TB'er stuff even when it isn't. :-D
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > Thanks, do.rflex, for the below, ya saved me a lot of typing. > > I was worried that our dialog was going to be one of those never ending > nitpickers, but you've finally played the last card needed for me to see > your hand in this "deal." Thanks for showing me that, once again, you > cannot handle playing this game, and so, why tax you any more if I know > you're going to keep failing from this point on? It would be abusive of > me. > > You scolded me for having a lack of integrity (not only me but the whole > movement was considered filled by creeps, you say) -- that is, after I > confessed my sins by beating my integrity's dead horse, you gave it a > whack too -- but the fact that you resorted to a personal attack on me > instead of handling the issues, is like you playing a final losing card > and then upturning the table full of poker chips and walking out in > anger at having lost. > > You know, when I see a guy with a big brain like yours quit like this, > well, it takes a toll. It's like watching your intellect commit > suicide. Something in me weeps at this, and it feels like a toll taken. > > So, insult shouted, the true inquiry ends, but for the benefit of others > who might be reading, let me respond to the below enough to satisfy my > need for i's dotted. > > If I were trying to be a TM teacher today, I wouldn't do seven steps; > I'd do dozens of steps before I taught a mantra. I'd knock off every > halo the movement ever was happy to see initiators pretending into > existence, and I wouldn't pose in front of sincere seekers as a knower > of reality without balancing that with a presentation of what I didn't > know with exactitude and humility. But such integrity would mean that > the marketing of TM would come to a virtual standstill and but few would > elect to endure such a rigorous intellectual training before they got a > mantra. Most seekers would not select me as a teacher and instead would > go to find a person claiming enlightenment rather than risk instruction > from merely a fellow seeker such like me. > > That's why the teachers sell out their integrities at lectures and go > for the clever diversions and to keep the sales-momentum going. They > know the mountain of work that would be needed to get intellectual > clarity, and "hey, these seekers want to go home and see American Idol, > so I'll just brush aside all these IMPORTANT QUESTIONS, cuz the > newbies'll never notice me doing so if I'm slick in my shuck and jive." > > I taught in the public schools, and, daily, the smartest kids in the > classes would ask questions I was immediately attracted to, but I had to > serve the rest of the class' needs, and the one GREAT question that had > a sincere asker had to be handled quickly and far less than it deserved. > But, I say to you, that kid was there in the right time and place with > the right question, but the teaching system forced me to let such a deep > opportunity pass. Oh, I caught the kid at the door or after school, did > the little I could, but, most of the time, it was never wham-bam hit the > iron while it's hot. > > I say, if a group of seekers is lucky enough to have one of them ask a > salient question at a first lecture, then that's a neon sign announcing > to me that the group's karma was deserving of such a lecture-stopper, > and they're all cosmically ready for a tour of the back room of the > ashram. > > So, the question, "Where do the mantras come from?" is given a false > answer, and here we have do.rflex saying that this is the moral thing to > do. His answer would be something like: "The mantras are ancient > meaningless sounds handed down for thousands of years in a tradition of > masters who have kept this knowledge pure." > > A lie. > > Maharishi took the mantras off the walls of ancient temples maybe, but > he sure didn't get them from Guru Dev, who never taught them or the > method of using them, and there was no tradition in the Vedas for > assigning those mantras based on age, and Maharishi gave himself his > high-hatting name and never was ordained as a yogi (thanks Vaj) and that > the teachers all knew they were practicing a religious ritual of > invoking dead spirits when doing the puja, and that we were as if > tricking innocents into being part (the witness part, THE MOST IMPORTANT > PART, RIGHT?) of a rite that was, yes I mean it, a voodoo ritual. > > All the above paragraph's data was never given to newbies. The mantra > information we gave was false, and Maharishi NEVER TOLD US THIS, and we > the duped, individually, had to come to this conclusion -- slowly, by > ourselves, and over years. > > When seekers left those second lectures, they thought we teachers were > spiritually hefty and, jiggy with the ancients, and that they would be > in good hands. Like that they left the lectures, and we had to go to the > closet, open it up, and see yet another wrinkle o
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
Thanks, do.rflex, for the below, ya saved me a lot of typing. I was worried that our dialog was going to be one of those never ending nitpickers, but you've finally played the last card needed for me to see your hand in this "deal." Thanks for showing me that, once again, you cannot handle playing this game, and so, why tax you any more if I know you're going to keep failing from this point on? It would be abusive of me. You scolded me for having a lack of integrity (not only me but the whole movement was considered filled by creeps, you say) -- that is, after I confessed my sins by beating my integrity's dead horse, you gave it a whack too -- but the fact that you resorted to a personal attack on me instead of handling the issues, is like you playing a final losing card and then upturning the table full of poker chips and walking out in anger at having lost. You know, when I see a guy with a big brain like yours quit like this, well, it takes a toll. It's like watching your intellect commit suicide. Something in me weeps at this, and it feels like a toll taken. So, insult shouted, the true inquiry ends, but for the benefit of others who might be reading, let me respond to the below enough to satisfy my need for i's dotted. If I were trying to be a TM teacher today, I wouldn't do seven steps; I'd do dozens of steps before I taught a mantra. I'd knock off every halo the movement ever was happy to see initiators pretending into existence, and I wouldn't pose in front of sincere seekers as a knower of reality without balancing that with a presentation of what I didn't know with exactitude and humility. But such integrity would mean that the marketing of TM would come to a virtual standstill and but few would elect to endure such a rigorous intellectual training before they got a mantra. Most seekers would not select me as a teacher and instead would go to find a person claiming enlightenment rather than risk instruction from merely a fellow seeker such like me. That's why the teachers sell out their integrities at lectures and go for the clever diversions and to keep the sales-momentum going. They know the mountain of work that would be needed to get intellectual clarity, and "hey, these seekers want to go home and see American Idol, so I'll just brush aside all these IMPORTANT QUESTIONS, cuz the newbies'll never notice me doing so if I'm slick in my shuck and jive." I taught in the public schools, and, daily, the smartest kids in the classes would ask questions I was immediately attracted to, but I had to serve the rest of the class' needs, and the one GREAT question that had a sincere asker had to be handled quickly and far less than it deserved. But, I say to you, that kid was there in the right time and place with the right question, but the teaching system forced me to let such a deep opportunity pass. Oh, I caught the kid at the door or after school, did the little I could, but, most of the time, it was never wham-bam hit the iron while it's hot. I say, if a group of seekers is lucky enough to have one of them ask a salient question at a first lecture, then that's a neon sign announcing to me that the group's karma was deserving of such a lecture-stopper, and they're all cosmically ready for a tour of the back room of the ashram. So, the question, "Where do the mantras come from?" is given a false answer, and here we have do.rflex saying that this is the moral thing to do. His answer would be something like: "The mantras are ancient meaningless sounds handed down for thousands of years in a tradition of masters who have kept this knowledge pure." A lie. Maharishi took the mantras off the walls of ancient temples maybe, but he sure didn't get them from Guru Dev, who never taught them or the method of using them, and there was no tradition in the Vedas for assigning those mantras based on age, and Maharishi gave himself his high-hatting name and never was ordained as a yogi (thanks Vaj) and that the teachers all knew they were practicing a religious ritual of invoking dead spirits when doing the puja, and that we were as if tricking innocents into being part (the witness part, THE MOST IMPORTANT PART, RIGHT?) of a rite that was, yes I mean it, a voodoo ritual. All the above paragraph's data was never given to newbies. The mantra information we gave was false, and Maharishi NEVER TOLD US THIS, and we the duped, individually, had to come to this conclusion -- slowly, by ourselves, and over years. When seekers left those second lectures, they thought we teachers were spiritually hefty and, jiggy with the ancients, and that they would be in good hands. Like that they left the lectures, and we had to go to the closet, open it up, and see yet another wrinkle on the face of our personal version of Dorien Grey. I never ever told any group I was enlightened or "close enough," but I had dozens come to me privately and ask if I was. See? Imagine the likes of me 40 years ago -- sigh -- that
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
On Jan 22, 2009, at 9:45 AM, boo_lives wrote: We were taught to portray the mantra selection as objective but also as something that was especially suited to the individual in a kind of cosmic way. Consider these 2 pts: 1. Would TM have been a marketing success if people knew that MMY arbitrarily changed the mantra selection criteria from time to time implying there was no real objective connection between the criteria and the suitability of the mantra to the individual? (there was a mild panic on my TTC when after being made teachers many of us realized we were given the "wrong mantra" since MMY had changed the criteria since the time when we had learnt -- MMY basically just told us to not think about it too much and not doubt our mantra.) 2. Would TM have been a marketing succes if people knew the mantra was selected based solely on age? The answers are NO, and that's why the movement kept this aura of ooga booganess about mantra selection. Of course in the day and age when TM was a popular fad, you could get away with that kind of thing. Naivete was high on most things "eastern". You just had to dress the part, if you were the former errand boy to a legitimate saint, hey, that would suffice. Nowadays it just doesn't fly (no pun intended). Many more people are aware that a guru will pick a mantra based on the student, not a changing chart that's memorized. So, since that isn't working and your org is based on cash flow for various services, you need either millionaires paying for courses or eccentric weirdos who can talk dope-smokers like Sir Paul McCartney into a campaign to recruit a million young into the cult. Presumably that should get the cash flowing again as they grow older and are "increasingly charmed" by the services and goods offered by the pure tradition of TM and other Unified Field-based "technologies".
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > > > So, are you equally comfortable the to give an > > > "official-as-decreed-by-MMY" second lecture in > > > which you are required to shuck and jive the > > > folks about the mantra being selected for them > > > especially with ultra specificity and cosmic > > > oogabooganess? > > > > I didn't get that from my teacher. I got "there are a > > limited number of mantras, and we choose one from that > > list based on criteria in your application form." > > Same here. The method of choosing the mantra was > portrayed as completely objective, not involving > any kind of judgment call of the part of the teacher. > We were taught to portray the mantra selection as objective but also as something that was especially suited to the individual in a kind of cosmic way. Consider these 2 pts: 1. Would TM have been a marketing success if people knew that MMY arbitrarily changed the mantra selection criteria from time to time implying there was no real objective connection between the criteria and the suitability of the mantra to the individual? (there was a mild panic on my TTC when after being made teachers many of us realized we were given the "wrong mantra" since MMY had changed the criteria since the time when we had learnt -- MMY basically just told us to not think about it too much and not doubt our mantra.) 2. Would TM have been a marketing succes if people knew the mantra was selected based solely on age? The answers are NO, and that's why the movement kept this aura of ooga booganess about mantra selection.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "uns_tressor" >wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "dhamiltony2k5" > wrote: > > Well, yes but it is not 'TM' of course because it is not taught > > through the TM organization. > > > The definition of TM is "Transcendental Meditation as taught by > Maharishi Mahesh Yogi". That is fine as your definition of what TM is. It certainly can be taught by folks without calling it that. Legally it is not TM without being taught through the TM organizations by certified teachers. You'll notice QuietPath is not called TM. No trademark infringement. Call it what you like. It is being taught in San Francisco. > > It must be true that, if what is being taught is that, then > it is TM, whether it is taught through the movement or not. > Uns. >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "uns_tressor" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "dhamiltony2k5" > wrote: > > Well, yes but it is not 'TM' of course because it is not taught > > through the TM organization. > > > The definition of TM is "Transcendental Meditation as taught by > Maharishi Mahesh Yogi". > > It must be true that, if what is being taught is that, then > it is TM, whether it is taught through the movement or not. But "taught through the movement" is part of "as taught by," for better or for worse.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "dhamiltony2k5" wrote: > Well, yes but it is not 'TM' of course because it is not taught > through the TM organization. > The definition of TM is "Transcendental Meditation as taught by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi". It must be true that, if what is being taught is that, then it is TM, whether it is taught through the movement or not. Uns.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "wayback71" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB wrote: > > > > Edg, in my opinion the adherence to the "Gotta > > do the puja" thang comes from many sources. One > > is the overall "Maharishisez" EQUALS "gotta" > > mindset that was drilled into us for so many > > years or decades. > > > > Another is the fact that many teachers really > > *did* feel a "buzz" from doing puja. I never > > felt much of one, but some did, and they assoc- > > iate that buzz with magical thinking and feel > > that something about *their* buzz helped give > > their initiates a buzz, too. > > > > Yet another is the dogma about something magical > > being "transmitted" from the "holy tradition" > > when one does puja. If you tend to believe this, > > you're pretty much going to placebo-effect your- > > self into having a buzz, even if one didn't > > really happen. > > There were also many stories of people seeing these robed, > older men walking around the room while puja was going on > during initiations-of some saying they saw "the guy in the > picture" (Guru Dev) in the room, of children claiming to see > these types of things, and the person being initiated seeing > the very beings the puja was specifically to invoke. I heard > these stories second and third hand. I never had this happen > while I was initiating, altho there were a few times while > doing the puja alone, when I suddenly found myself on my > knees in front of the table and feeling great devotion to > Guru Dev. While I never heard such stories, I certainly believe that you heard them. And I believe that on some level the people who told them believed that they were true. On the other hand, so did the people who told the stories from the first TM-siddhi courses of people walking through walls and doing full-blown levi- tation. I tend to call it the Prevention Of Buyer's Remorse Placebo Effect...in other words, moodmaking. However, I am open enough to believe that if the people who saw these things *wanted* to see them badly enough, they really did see them. Whether anyone else in the room would have is an open question. But even that is possible if the other people want to see these things badly enough, too. I'm fresh from seeing Yet Another Catholic Movie, "Doubt." This one is heavy on the doubt and heavy on the sin, and light in the loafers in terms of miracles. But "miracle stories" are and always have been the mainstay of spreading belief. And I suspect they always will be. Having seen quite a few things that most people would call miracles, I am less wowed by them. But I completely understand why most people would be. Thus some people who believe strongly in their religion or spiritual practice are going to tell those stories, in an attempt to spread their belief to others. Some are going to "creatively enhance" their stories to make them seem a little "better" than they really were. And a few are going to take the placebo effect so far as to manifest their faith's version of stigmata. All in the name of spreading the faith. It's just what happens. In every religion or spiritual practice, in every age. IMO it "comes with the territory." I was very careful in my original post to say that *for me* I felt no benefit from doing the puja or witnessing the puja done in how effective the tech- niques being taught worked or didn't work. But I completely understand how others feel differently. That doesn't mean that I necessarily believe that their stories are real in any objective sense, merely that the stories are very real *to them*. Rituals are important to many people. Dressing up in a robe and a funny hat and being handed your diploma on a stage in front of hundreds of people somehow makes it "better" than just getting it in the mail. But it's still a piece of paper, and the bottom line of that piece of paper is "Did I learn anything of value." If yes, getting the diploma in the mail would have worked just as well as going through the whole graduation ceremony. My *personal* experience is that ceremony and ritual add nothing to the value of teaching meditation, except for those people who believe that they add value. And if the technique is itself valuable, the lack of ceremony and ritual does not detract from it in any way. YMMV. > > But I think that the biggest obstacle to even > > *conceiving* of teaching TM without a puja is > > that MOST HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED BEING > > TAUGHT MEDITATION TECHNIQUES THAT WAY. > > > > I have. I've been taught TM techniques *with* > > a puja, and any number of other techniques > > *without* a puja. Sometimes the "teaching > > process" was individual, sometimes it was in > > a big room with no more mystery surrounding > > it than the teacher saying, "Meditate on > > this " to 500 people > > at a time. > > > > Having experienced both ways of teaching, and > > having *taught* meditation both ways, I honestly > > don't feel tha
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, I am the eternal wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 9:10 PM, wayback71 wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB wrote: > > There were also many stories of people seeing these robed, older men > > walking around the > > room while puja was going on during initiations-of some saying they saw > > "the guy in the > > picture" (Guru Dev) in the room, of children claiming to see these types of > > things, and the > > person being initiated seeing the very beings the puja was specifically to > > invoke. I heard > > these stories second and third hand. I never had this happen while I was > > initiating, altho > > there were a few times while doing the puja alone, when I suddenly found > > myself on my > > knees in front of the table and feeling great devotion to Guru Dev. > > > > Maharishi followed the well known wisdom that only an 18 year old would jump > out of a perfectly good airplane. If you want to start a movement, you > don't do it with a bunch of 30 somethings. Do it with a bunch of flower > children. > > Jane Hopson told a buddy of mine who worked for a year on the Houston > (Navasota, TX actually) forest academy that she could understand his having > a problem deciding whether or not to give up a year of his life to go from > LA to Navasota. She said she knew the feeling, as she remembered when she > had this hit of really dynamite acid in one hand and her application for TTC > in the other, trying to decide... > That could well explain the stories of people seeing the old guy in the picture, and the guys walking around the room... Lawson
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 9:10 PM, wayback71 wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB wrote: > There were also many stories of people seeing these robed, older men > walking around the > room while puja was going on during initiations-of some saying they saw > "the guy in the > picture" (Guru Dev) in the room, of children claiming to see these types of > things, and the > person being initiated seeing the very beings the puja was specifically to > invoke. I heard > these stories second and third hand. I never had this happen while I was > initiating, altho > there were a few times while doing the puja alone, when I suddenly found > myself on my > knees in front of the table and feeling great devotion to Guru Dev. > Maharishi followed the well known wisdom that only an 18 year old would jump out of a perfectly good airplane. If you want to start a movement, you don't do it with a bunch of 30 somethings. Do it with a bunch of flower children. Jane Hopson told a buddy of mine who worked for a year on the Houston (Navasota, TX actually) forest academy that she could understand his having a problem deciding whether or not to give up a year of his life to go from LA to Navasota. She said she knew the feeling, as she remembered when she had this hit of really dynamite acid in one hand and her application for TTC in the other, trying to decide...
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB wrote: > > Edg, in my opinion the adherence to the "Gotta > do the puja" thang comes from many sources. One > is the overall "Maharishisez" EQUALS "gotta" > mindset that was drilled into us for so many > years or decades. > > Another is the fact that many teachers really > *did* feel a "buzz" from doing puja. I never > felt much of one, but some did, and they assoc- > iate that buzz with magical thinking and feel > that something about *their* buzz helped give > their initiates a buzz, too. > > Yet another is the dogma about something magical > being "transmitted" from the "holy tradition" > when one does puja. If you tend to believe this, > you're pretty much going to placebo-effect your- > self into having a buzz, even if one didn't > really happen. There were also many stories of people seeing these robed, older men walking around the room while puja was going on during initiations-of some saying they saw "the guy in the picture" (Guru Dev) in the room, of children claiming to see these types of things, and the person being initiated seeing the very beings the puja was specifically to invoke. I heard these stories second and third hand. I never had this happen while I was initiating, altho there were a few times while doing the puja alone, when I suddenly found myself on my knees in front of the table and feeling great devotion to Guru Dev. > > But I think that the biggest obstacle to even > *conceiving* of teaching TM without a puja is > that MOST HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED BEING > TAUGHT MEDITATION TECHNIQUES THAT WAY. > > I have. I've been taught TM techniques *with* > a puja, and any number of other techniques > *without* a puja. Sometimes the "teaching > process" was individual, sometimes it was in > a big room with no more mystery surrounding > it than the teacher saying, "Meditate on > this " to 500 people > at a time. > > Having experienced both ways of teaching, and > having *taught* meditation both ways, I honestly > don't feel that there is any appreciable dif- > ference in terms of the "quality" of what the > student learns and their resulting ability to > meditate effectively. > > But that's just me. I'm not heavily attached to > dogma about this stuff, and I'm not attached in > the least to "Maharishisez." That has the same > relevance to my life as "BozoTheClownsez." > Others are going to feel differently about > this depending on what *their* attachments are > to all of the points above, and I for one am not > going to try to talk them out of those attach- > ments. > > What I *do* agree with is that to become widely > popular today (as opposed to during the 70s), a > technique is pretty much going to need to be > taught in a secular fashion, free of rituals > that most people would interpret as religious. > That is why mindfulness is making so many inroads > into society as a whole; you can teach it with > no "trappings" whatsoever, and it's still the > same practice. > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > > > "do.rflex" wrote: > > > The training at TTC included clear, specific explanations by > > > Maharishi about what indeed takes place as the mantra is given - > > > which my own experience teaching has repeatedly confirmed. > > > > So, are you equally comfortable the to give an > > "official-as-decreed-by-MMY" second lecture in which you are required > > to shuck and jive the folks about the mantra being selected for them > > especially with ultra specificity and cosmic oogabooganess? > > > > Or will you tell them that "It's your age that determines the mantra, > > we don't know where Maharishi got them for sure, we don't know why > > they can be thought to be more life supporting than other Hindu > > mantras, and that 90% of those who get these mantras quit the practice > > withing a few months, or that the siddhi program doesn't use Sanskrit?" > > > > It's one thing to create an aura of mystique such that the punters get > > a good shove to interiority by a theatrical framing, but the taste of > > it always kept coming back up on me like a tuna fish sandwich. The > > ends doesn't seem to justify the means; really now, are you espousing > > that the TM teacher fool or skew or outrightly dis-educate people into > > a holy program? WTF? > > > > Edg > > >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > So, are you equally comfortable the to give an > > "official-as-decreed-by-MMY" second lecture in > > which you are required to shuck and jive the > > folks about the mantra being selected for them > > especially with ultra specificity and cosmic > > oogabooganess? > > I didn't get that from my teacher. I got "there are a > limited number of mantras, and we choose one from that > list based on criteria in your application form." Same here. The method of choosing the mantra was portrayed as completely objective, not involving any kind of judgment call of the part of the teacher.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > "do.rflex" wrote: > > The training at TTC included clear, specific explanations by Maharishi > > about what indeed takes place as the mantra is given - which my own > > experience teaching has repeatedly confirmed. > > So, are you equally comfortable the to give an > "official-as-decreed-by-MMY" second lecture in which you are required > to shuck and jive the folks about the mantra being selected for them > especially with ultra specificity and cosmic oogabooganess? > I didn't get that from my teacher. I got "there are a limited number of mantras, and we choose one from that list based on criteria in your application form." > Or will you tell them that "It's your age that determines the mantra, > we don't know where Maharishi got them for sure, we don't know why > they can be thought to be more life supporting than other Hindu > mantras, and that 90% of those who get these mantras quit the practice > withing a few months, or that the siddhi program doesn't use Sanskrit?" > And this answers questions about mantras how? Assuming there is anything to the program, as MMY teaches it, then answers that go into so much detail that they discourage people from learning simply because it sounds too simple to be worth it, are counter-productive. WHich is it: do you be honest to the point of obsession or do you give an honest, albeit limited, answer that encourages them to participate, on the assumption that they can use the technique, even though the core of it can be imparted (to someone somewhere, perhaps) by the single sentence: think a thought but don't try. > It's one thing to create an aura of mystique such that the punters get > a good shove to interiority by a theatrical framing, but the taste of > it always kept coming back up on me like a tuna fish sandwich. The > ends doesn't seem to justify the means; really now, are you espousing > that the TM teacher fool or skew or outrightly dis-educate people into > a holy program? WTF? > > Edg > Are you required to get dunked in water to become a Christian? WHy do some sects insist on this? Why insist on people confessing their sins to a priest when in fact, there's no religious justification for it in the bible? Why give pep talks to a football team? etc... Lots of pragmatic issues stand behind rituals of all kinds, even if you're not willing to acknowledge them... Lawson
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer" wrote: > > From a friend: > > A friend of mine is very interested in learning TM, though he >cannot > afford the current fee of $2500. Does anyone know of an independent >TM > teacher who can provide instruction for less, in the San Francisco >Bay > Area? Well, yes but it is not 'TM' of course because it is not taught through the TM organization. try: http://www.thequietpath.org/ or google quiet path meditation
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > Instruct me then: > > How would you answer the below questions from a first lecture audience: > > "Hi! My brother's an initiator and so I have an insider's viewpoint > that has led me to ask these questions: I'd likely have stopped you before you made your full interrogatory and said something like "that's great your brother is a TM teacher and can answer those questions he's apparently already discussed with you. For now we will be..." and then describe and proceed with the program as outlined. A question like that would kind of be an obvious red flag that it has come from someone insincere who may simply wish to disrupt the instruction for others or to intentionally create controversy. A good teacher can skillfully handle situations like that. > Where did these mantras come from? Who invented them? How are they > used and why? Did Maharishi invent them or take them from some > tradition he's a part of? Why do some folks get different mantras > from different initiators? Why do some initiators only have two > mantras to give out and other have 16? How can I get the right mantra> from you for certain since I could have gone to another initiator with> a differing set of mantras? The other initiator might have the mantra> you're going to give me but he's giving them out differently -- how do> you explain this?" > > I'm betting you don't bother to answer each of the above questions and> will try to smarm your way around this challenge. > > Eyes are upon you dude. > > Yes, I lied for Guru Dev, and everybody knew it, and everybody did it,> and you did too if you followed the marketing training I got. I gave> my lectures to well over 10,000 people, got 20% of them to meditate,> and all during that time, not one other initiator came up to me after> a lecture and said shame on me. If you had any personal integrity to begin with you wouldn't have done it. That's a big reason I left the TMO. I refused to teach that way and I couldn't tolerate the huge number of creeps like you who had such little personal integrity and respect for what they were teaching that they -did- teach that way. > Fess up or claim a moral superiority that we know not of. > > Edg > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "do.rflex" wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > > > > > Not sure you answered me, cuz, I want to know if you, as I did, > > > outrightly lied about the mantras utilizing a variety of diversions, > > > subtrafuges, misdirections, spinnings, and lies. > > > > > > No. I didn't. And I think it's shameful that you did. > > > > > > > > > > > > I assured my audiences that these mantras were known for their > > > life-supporting effects and had been refined throughout the ages with > > > an exacting specificity, such that, no one should take another mantra > > > for fear it might be URP WHO KNOWS SHUDDER BE BAD FOR YOU! I never > > > would have answered anyone truthfully if they'd had the smarts to ask > > > the questions they never knew to ask about the fact that the mantras > > > are selected solely due to the initiate's age and nothing else. I was > > > told not to if they did and given ways to please the questioner > > > without answering the question. Why? Because then the whole "we > > > select a mantra fitted for you" would be exposed as a falsity, and > > > that the TM teacher was nothing more than a follower of a simple rule > > > instead of being some hotshot expert in mantras as the audience was > > > led to suppose. > > > > > > I would never have suspected that Maharishi's mantras were but > > > recently designated -- not a handed-down part of the TM traditions -- > > > when I first started TM, and it was quite a while after I became a TM > > > teacher that it slowly dawned on me that I was misrepresenting the > > > truth when I lectured in order to mask the TMO's Achilles Heel. > > > > > > It seems you are comfortable with the above and have a rationalization > > > for such actionsor, you are still believing the lies yourself. > > > Er, do you think Guru Dev gave the mantras to MMY, say, in a dream or > > > something, wh? > > > > > > Edg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "do.rflex" wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Okay, I'll play along with your "game" once more. > > > > > > > > > > Do you give full knowledge about the mantras when you give a > second > > > > > lecture? > > > > > > > > > > > > That's better. > > > > > > > > I haven't initiated for a long time, but when I did, I'd answer > > > > questions openly if they came up. Getting the practice right and the > > > > initiate comfortable with doing it properly is the aim. Keeping the > > > > whole thing as simple and uncluttered as possible is part of that. > > > > But I always openly answered questions i
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
Instruct me then: How would you answer the below questions from a first lecture audience: "Hi! My brother's an initiator and so I have an insider's viewpoint that has led me to ask these questions: Where did these mantras come from? Who invented them? How are they used and why? Did Maharishi invent them or take them from some tradition he's a part of? Why do some folks get different mantras from different initiators? Why do some initiators only have two mantras to give out and other have 16? How can I get the right mantra from you for certain since I could have gone to another initiator with a differing set of mantras? The other initiator might have the mantra you're going to give me but he's giving them out differently -- how do you explain this?" I'm betting you don't bother to answer each of the above questions and will try to smarm your way around this challenge. Eyes are upon you dude. Yes, I lied for Guru Dev, and everybody knew it, and everybody did it, and you did too if you followed the marketing training I got. I gave my lectures to well over 10,000 people, got 20% of them to meditate, and all during that time, not one other initiator came up to me after a lecture and said shame on me. Fess up or claim a moral superiority that we know not of. Edg --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "do.rflex" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > > > Not sure you answered me, cuz, I want to know if you, as I did, > > outrightly lied about the mantras utilizing a variety of diversions, > > subtrafuges, misdirections, spinnings, and lies. > > > No. I didn't. And I think it's shameful that you did. > > > > > > > I assured my audiences that these mantras were known for their > > life-supporting effects and had been refined throughout the ages with > > an exacting specificity, such that, no one should take another mantra > > for fear it might be URP WHO KNOWS SHUDDER BE BAD FOR YOU! I never > > would have answered anyone truthfully if they'd had the smarts to ask > > the questions they never knew to ask about the fact that the mantras > > are selected solely due to the initiate's age and nothing else. I was > > told not to if they did and given ways to please the questioner > > without answering the question. Why? Because then the whole "we > > select a mantra fitted for you" would be exposed as a falsity, and > > that the TM teacher was nothing more than a follower of a simple rule > > instead of being some hotshot expert in mantras as the audience was > > led to suppose. > > > > I would never have suspected that Maharishi's mantras were but > > recently designated -- not a handed-down part of the TM traditions -- > > when I first started TM, and it was quite a while after I became a TM > > teacher that it slowly dawned on me that I was misrepresenting the > > truth when I lectured in order to mask the TMO's Achilles Heel. > > > > It seems you are comfortable with the above and have a rationalization > > for such actionsor, you are still believing the lies yourself. > > Er, do you think Guru Dev gave the mantras to MMY, say, in a dream or > > something, wh? > > > > Edg > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "do.rflex" wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > > > > > > > Okay, I'll play along with your "game" once more. > > > > > > > > Do you give full knowledge about the mantras when you give a second > > > > lecture? > > > > > > > > > That's better. > > > > > > I haven't initiated for a long time, but when I did, I'd answer > > > questions openly if they came up. Getting the practice right and the > > > initiate comfortable with doing it properly is the aim. Keeping the > > > whole thing as simple and uncluttered as possible is part of that. > > > But I always openly answered questions if they arose. I never saw any > > > reason not to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edg > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "do.rflex" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > "do.rflex" wrote: > > > > > > > The training at TTC included clear, specific explanations by > > > > Maharishi > > > > > > > about what indeed takes place as the mantra is given - which > > > my own > > > > > > > experience teaching has repeatedly confirmed. > > > > > > > > > > > > So, are you equally comfortable the to give an > > > > > > "official-as-decreed-by-MMY" second lecture in which you are > > > required > > > > > > to shuck and jive the folks about the mantra being selected > > for them > > > > > > especially with ultra specificity and cosmic oogabooganess? > > > > > > > > > > > > Or will you tell them that "It's your age that determines the > > > mantra, > > > > > > we don't know where Maharishi got them for sure, we don't > know why > > > > > > they can be thought to be more life supporting than other
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > Not sure you answered me, cuz, I want to know if you, as I did, > outrightly lied about the mantras utilizing a variety of diversions, > subtrafuges, misdirections, spinnings, and lies. No. I didn't. And I think it's shameful that you did. > > I assured my audiences that these mantras were known for their > life-supporting effects and had been refined throughout the ages with > an exacting specificity, such that, no one should take another mantra > for fear it might be URP WHO KNOWS SHUDDER BE BAD FOR YOU! I never > would have answered anyone truthfully if they'd had the smarts to ask > the questions they never knew to ask about the fact that the mantras > are selected solely due to the initiate's age and nothing else. I was > told not to if they did and given ways to please the questioner > without answering the question. Why? Because then the whole "we > select a mantra fitted for you" would be exposed as a falsity, and > that the TM teacher was nothing more than a follower of a simple rule > instead of being some hotshot expert in mantras as the audience was > led to suppose. > > I would never have suspected that Maharishi's mantras were but > recently designated -- not a handed-down part of the TM traditions -- > when I first started TM, and it was quite a while after I became a TM > teacher that it slowly dawned on me that I was misrepresenting the > truth when I lectured in order to mask the TMO's Achilles Heel. > > It seems you are comfortable with the above and have a rationalization > for such actionsor, you are still believing the lies yourself. > Er, do you think Guru Dev gave the mantras to MMY, say, in a dream or > something, wh? > > Edg > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "do.rflex" wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > > > > > Okay, I'll play along with your "game" once more. > > > > > > Do you give full knowledge about the mantras when you give a second > > > lecture? > > > > > > That's better. > > > > I haven't initiated for a long time, but when I did, I'd answer > > questions openly if they came up. Getting the practice right and the > > initiate comfortable with doing it properly is the aim. Keeping the > > whole thing as simple and uncluttered as possible is part of that. > > But I always openly answered questions if they arose. I never saw any > > reason not to. > > > > > > > > > > > > Edg > > > > > > > > > -- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "do.rflex" wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > > > > > > > > > "do.rflex" wrote: > > > > > > The training at TTC included clear, specific explanations by > > > Maharishi > > > > > > about what indeed takes place as the mantra is given - which > > my own > > > > > > experience teaching has repeatedly confirmed. > > > > > > > > > > So, are you equally comfortable the to give an > > > > > "official-as-decreed-by-MMY" second lecture in which you are > > required > > > > > to shuck and jive the folks about the mantra being selected > for them > > > > > especially with ultra specificity and cosmic oogabooganess? > > > > > > > > > > Or will you tell them that "It's your age that determines the > > mantra, > > > > > we don't know where Maharishi got them for sure, we don't know why > > > > > they can be thought to be more life supporting than other Hindu > > > > > mantras, and that 90% of those who get these mantras quit the > > practice > > > > > withing a few months, or that the siddhi program doesn't use > > > Sanskrit?" > > > > > > > > > > It's one thing to create an aura of mystique such that the > > punters get > > > > > a good shove to interiority by a theatrical framing, but the > > taste of > > > > > it always kept coming back up on me like a tuna fish sandwich. > The > > > > > ends doesn't seem to justify the means; really now, are you > > espousing > > > > > that the TM teacher fool or skew or outrightly dis-educate > > people into > > > > > a holy program? WTF? > > > > > > > > > > Edg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe you can unscramble your brains and ask a coherent question. Or > > > > maybe you can't. > > > > > > > > > >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
Not sure you answered me, cuz, I want to know if you, as I did, outrightly lied about the mantras utilizing a variety of diversions, subtrafuges, misdirections, spinnings, and lies. I assured my audiences that these mantras were known for their life-supporting effects and had been refined throughout the ages with an exacting specificity, such that, no one should take another mantra for fear it might be URP WHO KNOWS SHUDDER BE BAD FOR YOU! I never would have answered anyone truthfully if they'd had the smarts to ask the questions they never knew to ask about the fact that the mantras are selected solely due to the initiate's age and nothing else. I was told not to if they did and given ways to please the questioner without answering the question. Why? Because then the whole "we select a mantra fitted for you" would be exposed as a falsity, and that the TM teacher was nothing more than a follower of a simple rule instead of being some hotshot expert in mantras as the audience was led to suppose. I would never have suspected that Maharishi's mantras were but recently designated -- not a handed-down part of the TM traditions -- when I first started TM, and it was quite a while after I became a TM teacher that it slowly dawned on me that I was misrepresenting the truth when I lectured in order to mask the TMO's Achilles Heel. It seems you are comfortable with the above and have a rationalization for such actionsor, you are still believing the lies yourself. Er, do you think Guru Dev gave the mantras to MMY, say, in a dream or something, wh? Edg --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "do.rflex" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > > > Okay, I'll play along with your "game" once more. > > > > Do you give full knowledge about the mantras when you give a second > > lecture? > > > That's better. > > I haven't initiated for a long time, but when I did, I'd answer > questions openly if they came up. Getting the practice right and the > initiate comfortable with doing it properly is the aim. Keeping the > whole thing as simple and uncluttered as possible is part of that. > But I always openly answered questions if they arose. I never saw any > reason not to. > > > > > > > Edg > > > > > > -- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "do.rflex" wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > > > > > > > "do.rflex" wrote: > > > > > The training at TTC included clear, specific explanations by > > Maharishi > > > > > about what indeed takes place as the mantra is given - which > my own > > > > > experience teaching has repeatedly confirmed. > > > > > > > > So, are you equally comfortable the to give an > > > > "official-as-decreed-by-MMY" second lecture in which you are > required > > > > to shuck and jive the folks about the mantra being selected for them > > > > especially with ultra specificity and cosmic oogabooganess? > > > > > > > > Or will you tell them that "It's your age that determines the > mantra, > > > > we don't know where Maharishi got them for sure, we don't know why > > > > they can be thought to be more life supporting than other Hindu > > > > mantras, and that 90% of those who get these mantras quit the > practice > > > > withing a few months, or that the siddhi program doesn't use > > Sanskrit?" > > > > > > > > It's one thing to create an aura of mystique such that the > punters get > > > > a good shove to interiority by a theatrical framing, but the > taste of > > > > it always kept coming back up on me like a tuna fish sandwich. The > > > > ends doesn't seem to justify the means; really now, are you > espousing > > > > that the TM teacher fool or skew or outrightly dis-educate > people into > > > > a holy program? WTF? > > > > > > > > Edg > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe you can unscramble your brains and ask a coherent question. Or > > > maybe you can't. > > > > > >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > Okay, I'll play along with your "game" once more. > > Do you give full knowledge about the mantras when you give a second > lecture? That's better. I haven't initiated for a long time, but when I did, I'd answer questions openly if they came up. Getting the practice right and the initiate comfortable with doing it properly is the aim. Keeping the whole thing as simple and uncluttered as possible is part of that. But I always openly answered questions if they arose. I never saw any reason not to. > > Edg > > > -- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "do.rflex" wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > > > > > "do.rflex" wrote: > > > > The training at TTC included clear, specific explanations by > Maharishi > > > > about what indeed takes place as the mantra is given - which my own > > > > experience teaching has repeatedly confirmed. > > > > > > So, are you equally comfortable the to give an > > > "official-as-decreed-by-MMY" second lecture in which you are required > > > to shuck and jive the folks about the mantra being selected for them > > > especially with ultra specificity and cosmic oogabooganess? > > > > > > Or will you tell them that "It's your age that determines the mantra, > > > we don't know where Maharishi got them for sure, we don't know why > > > they can be thought to be more life supporting than other Hindu > > > mantras, and that 90% of those who get these mantras quit the practice > > > withing a few months, or that the siddhi program doesn't use > Sanskrit?" > > > > > > It's one thing to create an aura of mystique such that the punters get > > > a good shove to interiority by a theatrical framing, but the taste of > > > it always kept coming back up on me like a tuna fish sandwich. The > > > ends doesn't seem to justify the means; really now, are you espousing > > > that the TM teacher fool or skew or outrightly dis-educate people into > > > a holy program? WTF? > > > > > > Edg > > > > > > > > Maybe you can unscramble your brains and ask a coherent question. Or > > maybe you can't. > > >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
Okay, I'll play along with your "game" once more. Do you give full knowledge about the mantras when you give a second lecture? Edg -- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "do.rflex" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > > > "do.rflex" wrote: > > > The training at TTC included clear, specific explanations by Maharishi > > > about what indeed takes place as the mantra is given - which my own > > > experience teaching has repeatedly confirmed. > > > > So, are you equally comfortable the to give an > > "official-as-decreed-by-MMY" second lecture in which you are required > > to shuck and jive the folks about the mantra being selected for them > > especially with ultra specificity and cosmic oogabooganess? > > > > Or will you tell them that "It's your age that determines the mantra, > > we don't know where Maharishi got them for sure, we don't know why > > they can be thought to be more life supporting than other Hindu > > mantras, and that 90% of those who get these mantras quit the practice > > withing a few months, or that the siddhi program doesn't use Sanskrit?" > > > > It's one thing to create an aura of mystique such that the punters get > > a good shove to interiority by a theatrical framing, but the taste of > > it always kept coming back up on me like a tuna fish sandwich. The > > ends doesn't seem to justify the means; really now, are you espousing > > that the TM teacher fool or skew or outrightly dis-educate people into > > a holy program? WTF? > > > > Edg > > > > Maybe you can unscramble your brains and ask a coherent question. Or > maybe you can't. >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > "do.rflex" wrote: > > The training at TTC included clear, specific explanations by Maharishi > > about what indeed takes place as the mantra is given - which my own > > experience teaching has repeatedly confirmed. > > So, are you equally comfortable the to give an > "official-as-decreed-by-MMY" second lecture in which you are required > to shuck and jive the folks about the mantra being selected for them > especially with ultra specificity and cosmic oogabooganess? > > Or will you tell them that "It's your age that determines the mantra, > we don't know where Maharishi got them for sure, we don't know why > they can be thought to be more life supporting than other Hindu > mantras, and that 90% of those who get these mantras quit the practice > withing a few months, or that the siddhi program doesn't use Sanskrit?" > > It's one thing to create an aura of mystique such that the punters get > a good shove to interiority by a theatrical framing, but the taste of > it always kept coming back up on me like a tuna fish sandwich. The > ends doesn't seem to justify the means; really now, are you espousing > that the TM teacher fool or skew or outrightly dis-educate people into > a holy program? WTF? > > Edg Maybe you can unscramble your brains and ask a coherent question. Or maybe you can't.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
Edg, in my opinion the adherence to the "Gotta do the puja" thang comes from many sources. One is the overall "Maharishisez" EQUALS "gotta" mindset that was drilled into us for so many years or decades. Another is the fact that many teachers really *did* feel a "buzz" from doing puja. I never felt much of one, but some did, and they assoc- iate that buzz with magical thinking and feel that something about *their* buzz helped give their initiates a buzz, too. Yet another is the dogma about something magical being "transmitted" from the "holy tradition" when one does puja. If you tend to believe this, you're pretty much going to placebo-effect your- self into having a buzz, even if one didn't really happen. But I think that the biggest obstacle to even *conceiving* of teaching TM without a puja is that MOST HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED BEING TAUGHT MEDITATION TECHNIQUES THAT WAY. I have. I've been taught TM techniques *with* a puja, and any number of other techniques *without* a puja. Sometimes the "teaching process" was individual, sometimes it was in a big room with no more mystery surrounding it than the teacher saying, "Meditate on this " to 500 people at a time. Having experienced both ways of teaching, and having *taught* meditation both ways, I honestly don't feel that there is any appreciable dif- ference in terms of the "quality" of what the student learns and their resulting ability to meditate effectively. But that's just me. I'm not heavily attached to dogma about this stuff, and I'm not attached in the least to "Maharishisez." That has the same relevance to my life as "BozoTheClownsez." Others are going to feel differently about this depending on what *their* attachments are to all of the points above, and I for one am not going to try to talk them out of those attach- ments. What I *do* agree with is that to become widely popular today (as opposed to during the 70s), a technique is pretty much going to need to be taught in a secular fashion, free of rituals that most people would interpret as religious. That is why mindfulness is making so many inroads into society as a whole; you can teach it with no "trappings" whatsoever, and it's still the same practice. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > "do.rflex" wrote: > > The training at TTC included clear, specific explanations by > > Maharishi about what indeed takes place as the mantra is given - > > which my own experience teaching has repeatedly confirmed. > > So, are you equally comfortable the to give an > "official-as-decreed-by-MMY" second lecture in which you are required > to shuck and jive the folks about the mantra being selected for them > especially with ultra specificity and cosmic oogabooganess? > > Or will you tell them that "It's your age that determines the mantra, > we don't know where Maharishi got them for sure, we don't know why > they can be thought to be more life supporting than other Hindu > mantras, and that 90% of those who get these mantras quit the practice > withing a few months, or that the siddhi program doesn't use Sanskrit?" > > It's one thing to create an aura of mystique such that the punters get > a good shove to interiority by a theatrical framing, but the taste of > it always kept coming back up on me like a tuna fish sandwich. The > ends doesn't seem to justify the means; really now, are you espousing > that the TM teacher fool or skew or outrightly dis-educate people into > a holy program? WTF? > > Edg >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
"do.rflex" wrote: > The training at TTC included clear, specific explanations by Maharishi > about what indeed takes place as the mantra is given - which my own > experience teaching has repeatedly confirmed. So, are you equally comfortable the to give an "official-as-decreed-by-MMY" second lecture in which you are required to shuck and jive the folks about the mantra being selected for them especially with ultra specificity and cosmic oogabooganess? Or will you tell them that "It's your age that determines the mantra, we don't know where Maharishi got them for sure, we don't know why they can be thought to be more life supporting than other Hindu mantras, and that 90% of those who get these mantras quit the practice withing a few months, or that the siddhi program doesn't use Sanskrit?" It's one thing to create an aura of mystique such that the punters get a good shove to interiority by a theatrical framing, but the taste of it always kept coming back up on me like a tuna fish sandwich. The ends doesn't seem to justify the means; really now, are you espousing that the TM teacher fool or skew or outrightly dis-educate people into a holy program? WTF? Edg
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
Have no fear- The Great Obama will provide whatever instruction is necessary. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer" rick@ wrote: > > > > From a friend: > > > > A friend of mine is very interested in learning TM, though he > cannot > > afford the current fee of $2500. Does anyone know of an independent > TM > > teacher who can provide instruction for less, in the San Francisco > Bay > > Area? > > Consider this; whatever you THINK, your friend will not be learning > TM as taught by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. He will also be excluded from > any advanced programme. You will for sure be able to find a fool that > will teach this fellow something, but you should carefully consider > your own responsebility in this issue. > > It should still be the TM instruction, with puja, checking and > > all of that. Thanks. > > >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" wrote: > > This is one of the reasons why I always felt someone like Deepak > Chopra should have begun his experience in the TMO as a Flower Boy on > Saturday mornings. Chopra is very much someone who, deservedly, was > a star pupil because he studied his ass off...but he was also the > Dauphin-like golden boy. > > I think the experience would have humbled him. It certainly did me > and certainly convinced me of the power of the puja. I would wait > outside the doors of the puja room and be the person who would guide > the initiates to the room where they do their first meditation. > Sitting outside the puja room I would always notice an incredible > energy change in the area which exponentially ratcheted up about the > time the mantra was given out. It was incredibly palpable and > convinced me that something was happening...yes, I would say that it > was the enlivening of the Holy Tradition and, yes, making the > recitation of the puja an essential requirement of receiving a mantra. > > And, most definitely "yes", it does toggle the power of the mantra > (to use Edg's term, below). "Toggle" is a really good word to > describe it! > > With such an important thing at hand, why would anyone want to take a > chance they weren't getting the full effect? > > I'm not 100% sure, but I've asked this question before and have been > told that in Chopra's meditation technique he doesn't preceed it with > a puja. If true, he's an irresponsible prick who is playing with > people in a very irresponsible way. > > Not that what he is teaching them isn't better than them not learning > anything at all; only that it is not complete and the effects won't > be what they could have been. As a TM teacher trained by MMY in 1971 and having initiated many, many people, I fully agree with Shemp's assessment and will add that the sometimes overwhelming yet gentle and sublime 'energy' I've experienced while teaching during the initiation has been an undeniable and profound experience - at times with varying degrees of intensity. The training at TTC included clear, specific explanations by Maharishi about what indeed takes place as the mantra is given - which my own experience teaching has repeatedly confirmed.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--(has a 415 telephone #): ...TM teacher available at http://www.thequietpath.org - In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Richard M" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" > wrote: > > > > This is one of the reasons why I always felt someone like Deepak > > Chopra should have begun his experience in the TMO as a Flower Boy on > > Saturday mornings. Chopra is very much someone who, deservedly, was > > a star pupil because he studied his ass off...but he was also the > > Dauphin-like golden boy. > > > > I think the experience would have humbled him. It certainly did me > > and certainly convinced me of the power of the puja. I would wait > > outside the doors of the puja room and be the person who would guide > > the initiates to the room where they do their first meditation. > > Sitting outside the puja room I would always notice an incredible > > energy change in the area which exponentially ratcheted up about the > > time the mantra was given out. It was incredibly palpable and > > convinced me that something was happening...yes, I would say that it > > was the enlivening of the Holy Tradition and, yes, making the > > recitation of the puja an essential requirement of receiving a mantra. > > > > And, most definitely "yes", it does toggle the power of the mantra > > (to use Edg's term, below). "Toggle" is a really good word to > > describe it! > > > > With such an important thing at hand, why would anyone want to take a > > chance they weren't getting the full effect? > > > Agreed. Us Saturday morning flower boys are of like mind! > > > > I'm not 100% sure, but I've asked this question before and have been > > told that in Chopra's meditation technique he doesn't preceed it with > > a puja. If true, he's an irresponsible prick who is playing with > > people in a very irresponsible way. > > > > Not that what he is teaching them isn't better than them not learning > > anything at all; only that it is not complete and the effects won't > > be what they could have been. > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > > > > > Rick, > > > > > > Do you feel the puja etc. is necessary for the technique to "get > > > activated by Guru Dev" or something of that ilk? > > > > > > Seems to me that an ancient ritual has a chance of helping > > (deluding?) > > > a newbie to imprint on the technique, so that's a practical benefit, > > > but do you actually think there's something mystical happening that > > > toggles the power of the mantra or its use or that "somehow" primes > > > the pump of the initiate's mind? > > > > > > I once loved the idea of the 5,000 year tradition being carried > > > forward and that the mantras were as ancient and as long- understood > > > for their effects, but all that was hooey as far as anyone can tell > > > these days since we have no provenance of the mantras. > > > > > > Why tell your friend to cheat the TMO out of a fee and all that if > > the > > > dang system of meditating only ended up with a dysfunctional > > > organization of ill repute? And, hey, if your friend really takes > > off > > > and has incredible experiences, how is he/she going to approach the > > > TMO to further or intensify their program if they're not officially > > a > > > paying-member of the TMO? If the experiences are THERE your friend > > > may be quite vulnerable to many risks when the passion to amp up the > > > results skews their decisions about what organization to become > > > involved with. Your friend might equally "get off" on an Amma hug, > > ya > > > see? Where's the beef that your friend thinks he/she's going to > > get? > > > Why aren't you more fully advising this person about the vagaries of > > > spiritual methodologies such that a more informed decision > > about "how > > > to meditate and why to do so" becomes clearer to that person? > > > > > > Edg > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer" wrote: > > > > > > > > From a friend: > > > > > > > > A friend of mine is very interested in learning TM, though he > > cannot > > > > afford the current fee of $2500. Does anyone know of an > > independent TM > > > > teacher who can provide instruction for less, in the San > > Francisco Bay > > > > Area? It should still be the TM instruction, with puja, checking > > and > > > > all of that. Thanks. > > > > > > > > > >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" wrote: > > This is one of the reasons why I always felt someone like Deepak > Chopra should have begun his experience in the TMO as a Flower Boy on > Saturday mornings. Chopra is very much someone who, deservedly, was > a star pupil because he studied his ass off...but he was also the > Dauphin-like golden boy. > > I think the experience would have humbled him. It certainly did me > and certainly convinced me of the power of the puja. I would wait > outside the doors of the puja room and be the person who would guide > the initiates to the room where they do their first meditation. > Sitting outside the puja room I would always notice an incredible > energy change in the area which exponentially ratcheted up about the > time the mantra was given out. It was incredibly palpable and > convinced me that something was happening...yes, I would say that it > was the enlivening of the Holy Tradition and, yes, making the > recitation of the puja an essential requirement of receiving a mantra. > > And, most definitely "yes", it does toggle the power of the mantra > (to use Edg's term, below). "Toggle" is a really good word to > describe it! > > With such an important thing at hand, why would anyone want to take a > chance they weren't getting the full effect? Agreed. Us Saturday morning flower boys are of like mind! > I'm not 100% sure, but I've asked this question before and have been > told that in Chopra's meditation technique he doesn't preceed it with > a puja. If true, he's an irresponsible prick who is playing with > people in a very irresponsible way. > > Not that what he is teaching them isn't better than them not learning > anything at all; only that it is not complete and the effects won't > be what they could have been. > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > > > Rick, > > > > Do you feel the puja etc. is necessary for the technique to "get > > activated by Guru Dev" or something of that ilk? > > > > Seems to me that an ancient ritual has a chance of helping > (deluding?) > > a newbie to imprint on the technique, so that's a practical benefit, > > but do you actually think there's something mystical happening that > > toggles the power of the mantra or its use or that "somehow" primes > > the pump of the initiate's mind? > > > > I once loved the idea of the 5,000 year tradition being carried > > forward and that the mantras were as ancient and as long-understood > > for their effects, but all that was hooey as far as anyone can tell > > these days since we have no provenance of the mantras. > > > > Why tell your friend to cheat the TMO out of a fee and all that if > the > > dang system of meditating only ended up with a dysfunctional > > organization of ill repute? And, hey, if your friend really takes > off > > and has incredible experiences, how is he/she going to approach the > > TMO to further or intensify their program if they're not officially > a > > paying-member of the TMO? If the experiences are THERE your friend > > may be quite vulnerable to many risks when the passion to amp up the > > results skews their decisions about what organization to become > > involved with. Your friend might equally "get off" on an Amma hug, > ya > > see? Where's the beef that your friend thinks he/she's going to > get? > > Why aren't you more fully advising this person about the vagaries of > > spiritual methodologies such that a more informed decision > about "how > > to meditate and why to do so" becomes clearer to that person? > > > > Edg > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer" wrote: > > > > > > From a friend: > > > > > > A friend of mine is very interested in learning TM, though he > cannot > > > afford the current fee of $2500. Does anyone know of an > independent TM > > > teacher who can provide instruction for less, in the San > Francisco Bay > > > Area? It should still be the TM instruction, with puja, checking > and > > > all of that. Thanks. > > > > > >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer" wrote: > > From a friend: > > A friend of mine is very interested in learning TM, though he cannot > afford the current fee of $2500. Does anyone know of an independent TM > teacher who can provide instruction for less, in the San Francisco Bay > Area? Consider this; whatever you THINK, your friend will not be learning TM as taught by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. He will also be excluded from any advanced programme. You will for sure be able to find a fool that will teach this fellow something, but you should carefully consider your own responsebility in this issue. It should still be the TM instruction, with puja, checking and > all of that. Thanks. >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
This is one of the reasons why I always felt someone like Deepak Chopra should have begun his experience in the TMO as a Flower Boy on Saturday mornings. Chopra is very much someone who, deservedly, was a star pupil because he studied his ass off...but he was also the Dauphin-like golden boy. I think the experience would have humbled him. It certainly did me and certainly convinced me of the power of the puja. I would wait outside the doors of the puja room and be the person who would guide the initiates to the room where they do their first meditation. Sitting outside the puja room I would always notice an incredible energy change in the area which exponentially ratcheted up about the time the mantra was given out. It was incredibly palpable and convinced me that something was happening...yes, I would say that it was the enlivening of the Holy Tradition and, yes, making the recitation of the puja an essential requirement of receiving a mantra. And, most definitely "yes", it does toggle the power of the mantra (to use Edg's term, below). "Toggle" is a really good word to describe it! With such an important thing at hand, why would anyone want to take a chance they weren't getting the full effect? I'm not 100% sure, but I've asked this question before and have been told that in Chopra's meditation technique he doesn't preceed it with a puja. If true, he's an irresponsible prick who is playing with people in a very irresponsible way. Not that what he is teaching them isn't better than them not learning anything at all; only that it is not complete and the effects won't be what they could have been. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > Rick, > > Do you feel the puja etc. is necessary for the technique to "get > activated by Guru Dev" or something of that ilk? > > Seems to me that an ancient ritual has a chance of helping (deluding?) > a newbie to imprint on the technique, so that's a practical benefit, > but do you actually think there's something mystical happening that > toggles the power of the mantra or its use or that "somehow" primes > the pump of the initiate's mind? > > I once loved the idea of the 5,000 year tradition being carried > forward and that the mantras were as ancient and as long-understood > for their effects, but all that was hooey as far as anyone can tell > these days since we have no provenance of the mantras. > > Why tell your friend to cheat the TMO out of a fee and all that if the > dang system of meditating only ended up with a dysfunctional > organization of ill repute? And, hey, if your friend really takes off > and has incredible experiences, how is he/she going to approach the > TMO to further or intensify their program if they're not officially a > paying-member of the TMO? If the experiences are THERE your friend > may be quite vulnerable to many risks when the passion to amp up the > results skews their decisions about what organization to become > involved with. Your friend might equally "get off" on an Amma hug, ya > see? Where's the beef that your friend thinks he/she's going to get? > Why aren't you more fully advising this person about the vagaries of > spiritual methodologies such that a more informed decision about "how > to meditate and why to do so" becomes clearer to that person? > > Edg > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer" wrote: > > > > From a friend: > > > > A friend of mine is very interested in learning TM, though he cannot > > afford the current fee of $2500. Does anyone know of an independent TM > > teacher who can provide instruction for less, in the San Francisco Bay > > Area? It should still be the TM instruction, with puja, checking and > > all of that. Thanks. > > >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
Rick, the friend of your friend wants to learn TM from Paul Brown. http://www.thequietpath.org/ --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer" wrote: > > From a friend: > > A friend of mine is very interested in > learning TM, though he cannot > afford the current fee of $2500. Does > anyone know of an independent TM > teacher who can provide instruction for > less, in the San Francisco Bay > Area? It should still be the TM instruction, > with puja, checking and > all of that. Thanks. >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
Worship imbues the object of focus with vibration, feeling, sound, and resonance with unseen, unspoken mystical power, beyond the senses, whether it is the Catholic Eucharist, Native American dances and chants, prayers to Mecca, a pilgrimage to the Haj, yagynas, a fire ceremony, Buddhist rituals, Shabbat, etc. Otherwise, Rick should hand the person a list of the mantras published on FFL and let him pick one. O.K. now he, sits to meditate, closes his eyes and the first thing that pops into his head is, "Did I pick the right mantra?" Doubt precludes innocent practice, the aspirant's experience is not effortless, he strains, gets a headache, gives up and tells his friends, "Yep, been there done that, don't bother wasting your time." Either Rick or his friend thinks there is some value in following a prescribe tradition as did Maharishi until the day he died. http://tinyurl.com/8uuvwl --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung wrote: > > Rick, > > Do you feel the puja etc. is necessary for the technique to "get > activated by Guru Dev" or something of that ilk? > > Seems to me that an ancient ritual has a chance of helping (deluding?) > a newbie to imprint on the technique, so that's a practical benefit, > but do you actually think there's something mystical happening that > toggles the power of the mantra or its use or that "somehow" primes > the pump of the initiate's mind? > > I once loved the idea of the 5,000 year tradition being carried > forward and that the mantras were as ancient and as long-understood > for their effects, but all that was hooey as far as anyone can tell > these days since we have no provenance of the mantras. > > Why tell your friend to cheat the TMO out of a fee and all that if the > dang system of meditating only ended up with a dysfunctional > organization of ill repute? And, hey, if your friend really takes off > and has incredible experiences, how is he/she going to approach the > TMO to further or intensify their program if they're not officially a > paying-member of the TMO? If the experiences are THERE your friend > may be quite vulnerable to many risks when the passion to amp up the > results skews their decisions about what organization to become > involved with. Your friend might equally "get off" on an Amma hug, ya > see? Where's the beef that your friend thinks he/she's going to get? > Why aren't you more fully advising this person about the vagaries of > spiritual methodologies such that a more informed decision about "how > to meditate and why to do so" becomes clearer to that person? > > Edg > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer" wrote: > > > > From a friend: > > > > A friend of mine is very interested in learning TM, though he cannot > > afford the current fee of $2500. Does anyone know of an independent TM > > teacher who can provide instruction for less, in the San Francisco Bay > > Area? It should still be the TM instruction, with puja, checking and > > all of that. Thanks. > > >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Independent TM Teachers in the San Francisco Bay Area?
Rick, Do you feel the puja etc. is necessary for the technique to "get activated by Guru Dev" or something of that ilk? Seems to me that an ancient ritual has a chance of helping (deluding?) a newbie to imprint on the technique, so that's a practical benefit, but do you actually think there's something mystical happening that toggles the power of the mantra or its use or that "somehow" primes the pump of the initiate's mind? I once loved the idea of the 5,000 year tradition being carried forward and that the mantras were as ancient and as long-understood for their effects, but all that was hooey as far as anyone can tell these days since we have no provenance of the mantras. Why tell your friend to cheat the TMO out of a fee and all that if the dang system of meditating only ended up with a dysfunctional organization of ill repute? And, hey, if your friend really takes off and has incredible experiences, how is he/she going to approach the TMO to further or intensify their program if they're not officially a paying-member of the TMO? If the experiences are THERE your friend may be quite vulnerable to many risks when the passion to amp up the results skews their decisions about what organization to become involved with. Your friend might equally "get off" on an Amma hug, ya see? Where's the beef that your friend thinks he/she's going to get? Why aren't you more fully advising this person about the vagaries of spiritual methodologies such that a more informed decision about "how to meditate and why to do so" becomes clearer to that person? Edg --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer" wrote: > > From a friend: > > A friend of mine is very interested in learning TM, though he cannot > afford the current fee of $2500. Does anyone know of an independent TM > teacher who can provide instruction for less, in the San Francisco Bay > Area? It should still be the TM instruction, with puja, checking and > all of that. Thanks. >
