[FairfieldLife] Re: Jesus Freaks at the Agnostic Cafe
I have started to use the Delete Button or Ban some of the most heavy writers that is saying the same thing in hundred - mayby thousands of mails - because my Email box became filled with E-Posts that I at the best call boring. Ingegerd --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I mentioned earlier my perception that the periods of rancor on FFL run in cycles. IMO the event that triggers each cycle is pretty obvious -- either Maharishi says/does something really dumb, or the TM movement says/does something really dumb. This happens frequently enough these days that FFL pretty much *stays* a war zone. :-) It's fascinating to me that the posters whose vitriol is triggered by these really dumb stunts don't realize that this is the catalyst that triggers them. They think that their reactions are triggered by anti-TMers gloating about or, even worse in their eyes, laughing at each dumb stunt. I honestly believe that when these folks launch into one of their Gotta defend Maharishi and his ideas to the death periods, they're not really trying to convince most of us in the FFL audience how right they are to still believe in the TMO and in Maharishi. They're trying to convince *themselves*. (Interestingly, even though he takes a lot of flack here, the only person I've seen to comment on this phenomenon is Shemp; others have been so seduced by the arguments themselves that they've actually bought into the idea that the TBs are trying to convince the non-believers.) The hard-core TBs on Fairfield Life are not stupid people. *They* see the dumb stunts as dumb stunts, too. But IMO they can't admit to that, because they think that if they do they're committing some kind of sin. I know that my use of the word sin sounds harsh or overly dramatic, but I honestly think that's what is happening. *They* have doubts, too, but they can't admit the doubts to others -- or even to themselves -- because they have bought into the TM dogma that says doubt is bad, and indicates that there is something *wrong* with the doubter. Just look at the phenomenon and keep in mind the following scenario. There's a cafe where the majority of regulars once belonged to an organiz- ation that declared that it knew the absolute Truth about almost everything, that an absolute belief in this Truth was necessary for continued participation in the organization, and that any contact with other spiritual groups was somehow contagious, and was therefore dangerous. The vast majority of these people at the cafe have, over time, realized that none of these things were true, much less Truth, and that they are better served in their personal lives by making their own decisions, as adults, and living with the repercussions of those decisions. The very credo of the cafe, printed in big letters on the menus, says that it's a place for people who *DO* like to think for themselves. And in this cafe, every day, pretty much from the time the cafe opens in the morning until the time it closes at night, there are a few people who one has to think of as evangelists for NOT thinking for yourself. No matter how they like to color what they say and do there, 90% of it is to repeat endlessly, You guys are wrong and those of us who still believe what we were told to believe are right. It's really no different than encountering a few Jesus zealots who spend all their waking hours at a cafe full of agnostics. Every day, literally from sunup to the wee hours of the night, these zealots spend hours a day trying to convince these free- thinking agnostics that they're WRONG, and that only the True Believers are RIGHT. And all the time, the person they are really trying to convince is themselves. Such people are to be pitied or laughed at, not scorned. The problem, if there is one, is not with the people who have come to some sense of balance about TM, the TMO, and their feelings about both, but with the people who believe -- and act -- as if there is only one RIGHT way to believe and act. Of course the RIGHT way just happens to be *their* way. IMO their participation here -- and especially the compulsive *level* of their participation -- speaks for itself. These are people who have bought into the If you have doubts that means by definition that there is something WRONG with you dogma, and who talk, talk, talk, talk, and talk some more to silence the doubts in their *OWN* minds, so that they don't have to admit that they're there. They're not really trying to drown out the other voices on the forum, they're trying to drown out the voices they hear in their own heads. Ignore them or pity them, as you wish. Because when you argue with them, you're helping them, you're entering into a kind of codependent relationship with them that keeps them talk, talk,
[FairfieldLife] Re: Jesus Freaks at the Agnostic Cafe
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I mentioned earlier my perception that the periods of rancor on FFL run in cycles. IMO the event that triggers each cycle is pretty obvious -- either Maharishi says/does something really dumb, or the TM movement says/does something really dumb. This happens frequently enough these days that FFL pretty much *stays* a war zone. :-) It's fascinating to me that the posters whose vitriol is triggered by these really dumb stunts don't realize that this is the catalyst that triggers them. They think that their reactions are triggered by anti-TMers gloating about or, even worse in their eyes, laughing at each dumb stunt. I honestly believe that when these folks launch into one of their Gotta defend Maharishi and his ideas to the death periods, they're not really trying to convince most of us in the FFL audience how right they are to still believe in the TMO and in Maharishi. They're trying to convince *themselves*. (Interestingly, even though he takes a lot of flack here, the only person I've seen to comment on this phenomenon is Shemp; others have been so seduced by the arguments themselves that they've actually bought into the idea that the TBs are trying to convince the non-believers.) The hard-core TBs on Fairfield Life are not stupid people. *They* see the dumb stunts as dumb stunts, too. But IMO they can't admit to that, because they think that if they do they're committing some kind of sin. I know that my use of the word sin sounds harsh or overly dramatic, but I honestly think that's what is happening. *They* have doubts, too, but they can't admit the doubts to others -- or even to themselves -- because they have bought into the TM dogma that says doubt is bad, and indicates that there is something *wrong* with the doubter. Just look at the phenomenon and keep in mind the following scenario. There's a cafe where the majority of regulars once belonged to an organiz- ation that declared that it knew the absolute Truth about almost everything, that an absolute belief in this Truth was necessary for continued participation in the organization, and that any contact with other spiritual groups was somehow contagious, and was therefore dangerous. The vast majority of these people at the cafe have, over time, realized that none of these things were true, much less Truth, and that they are better served in their personal lives by making their own decisions, as adults, and living with the repercussions of those decisions. The very credo of the cafe, printed in big letters on the menus, says that it's a place for people who *DO* like to think for themselves. And in this cafe, every day, pretty much from the time the cafe opens in the morning until the time it closes at night, there are a few people who one has to think of as evangelists for NOT thinking for yourself. No matter how they like to color what they say and do there, 90% of it is to repeat endlessly, You guys are wrong and those of us who still believe what we were told to believe are right. It's really no different than encountering a few Jesus zealots who spend all their waking hours at a cafe full of agnostics. Every day, literally from sunup to the wee hours of the night, these zealots spend hours a day trying to convince these free- thinking agnostics that they're WRONG, and that only the True Believers are RIGHT. And all the time, the person they are really trying to convince is themselves. Such people are to be pitied or laughed at, not scorned. The problem, if there is one, is not with the people who have come to some sense of balance about TM, the TMO, and their feelings about both, but with the people who believe -- and act -- as if there is only one RIGHT way to believe and act. Of course the RIGHT way just happens to be *their* way. IMO their participation here -- and especially the compulsive *level* of their participation -- speaks for itself. These are people who have bought into the If you have doubts that means by definition that there is something WRONG with you dogma, and who talk, talk, talk, talk, and talk some more to silence the doubts in their *OWN* minds, so that they don't have to admit that they're there. They're not really trying to drown out the other voices on the forum, they're trying to drown out the voices they hear in their own heads. Ignore them or pity them, as you wish. Because when you argue with them, you're helping them, you're entering into a kind of codependent relationship with them that keeps them talk, talk, talking and thus from ever being able to *deal with* their own doubts. It really doesn't matter in the long run whether they deal with these doubts by processing them and rejecting them or whether they deal with them by processing them
[FairfieldLife] Re: Jesus Freaks at the Agnostic Cafe
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The thing that annoys me most about this is when someone on here forwards peoples free-thinking posts to their national office in an attempt to get them in trouble. Isn't it just the most pathetic thing you ever heard? If people can't deal with things directly they should go play somewhere else, it's not like there isn't a warning on the home page. What starts on the net should stay on the net. By the way it wasn't hard to work out who it was, but are they big enough to admit it? Wow. If anyone is really doing this, you should say who it is so Rick can ban them from the group. That's truly reprehensible. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Jesus Freaks at the Agnostic Cafe
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Ignore them or pity them, as you wish. Because when you argue with them, you're helping them, you're entering into a kind of codependent relationship with them that keeps them talk, talk, talking and thus from ever being able to *deal with* their own doubts. It really doesn't matter in the long run whether they deal with these doubts by processing them and rejecting them or whether they deal with them by processing them and realizing that the doubts are valid. The important thing -- for their own mental and spiritual health -- is that they actually deal with their own doubts themselves. And they'll never do this as long as they're talk, talk, talking trying to make the voices in their heads go away. Four observations here. First, this post of Barry's is more same old-same old. He isn't saying anything he hasn't already said many times here (and many more on alt.m.t). Second, it's more demonization of those he is pleased to label True Believers. Third, if you really look at his descriptions of these alleged TBs and their behavior, you'll realize they don't actually apply to anybody here. Some of his characterizations apply to one or two people, some apply to another couple of people, but there's not even one person to whom they *all* apply. Yet his rant depends on portraying his fantasized TBs as a monolithic entity who all show all the same characteristics. Fourth, and most interesting, is that he employs the technique Lifton calls dispensing of existence to the TBs. Lifton coined the concept to refer to something cults do, but you'll see it here being done to the pro-TMers by the TM critics, Barry and a number of others. It involves marginalizing and demonizing them, of course, but most specifically in the context of an electronic forum, it involves the recommendation *not to engage them*--to ignore or even killfile their posts and not respond to them, essentially not to *associate* with them. Metaphorically, it proclaims that they do not have the right to exist on this forum. Their existence must be dispensed with, suppressed, disappeared. It's precisely the same phenomenon Barry earlier called Cootie Consciousness among the supposed TBs. Yet those same supposed TBs have no problem vigorously engaging with the TM critics; I can't think of any of them ever recommending that a critic, much less all the critics as a group, be ignored or killfiled. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Jesus Freaks at the Agnostic Cafe
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have started to use the Delete Button or Ban some of the most heavy writers that is saying the same thing in hundred - mayby thousands of mails - because my Email box became filled with E- Posts that I at the best call boring. Ingegerd here demonstrates what I pointed out in my previous post is dispensing of existence of the supposed TBs. The fascinating thing is that she is unable to recognize that Barry, the very person she's responding to, more than anyone else here leaves large numbers of posts saying the same thing over and over. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Jesus Freaks at the Agnostic Cafe
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: snip The thing that annoys me most about this is when someone on here forwards peoples free-thinking posts to their national office in an attempt to get them in trouble. Isn't it just the most pathetic thing you ever heard? If people can't deal with things directly they should go play somewhere else, it's not like there isn't a warning on the home page. What starts on the net should stay on the net. By the way it wasn't hard to work out who it was, but are they big enough to admit it? Wow. If anyone is really doing this, you should say who it is so Rick can ban them from the group. That's truly reprehensible. Why? From the TBer's viewpoint, some people who post to on FFL are definitely off the program and lying about it to get into the Domes. If you accept, without question, that this dilutes/interferes/whatever with the process within the Domes, it isn't a stretch to wanna blow the whistle. Some people believe that their presence in the Dome is the most important thing that they can do, and that anyone who knowingly does something that interferes with the effects of the Domes is literally threatening the world. More intimately, if you were one of the Israeli sidhas deliberately putting yourself in harm's way under the assumption that there is some kind of literal missile shield being formed around you in the 100 person group in Israel, wouldn't you be fearful for your life if you found out that the group wasn't nearly as large as you thought it was because of ringers who are really off the Program? There are many who DO believe that way and I would expect them to react in accordance with their beliefs, wouldn't you? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Jesus Freaks at the Agnostic Cafe
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd marwincornyarmand@ wrote: I have started to use the Delete Button or Ban some of the most heavy writers that is saying the same thing in hundred - mayby thousands of mails - because my Email box became filled with E- Posts that I at the best call boring. Ingegerd here demonstrates what I pointed out in my previous post is dispensing of existence of the supposed TBs. The fascinating thing is that she is unable to recognize that Barry, the very person she's responding to, more than anyone else here leaves large numbers of posts saying the same thing over and over. We seldom get annoyed with people weagree with... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Jesus Freaks at the Agnostic Cafe
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: snip The thing that annoys me most about this is when someone on here forwards peoples free-thinking posts to their national office in an attempt to get them in trouble. Isn't it just the most pathetic thing you ever heard? If people can't deal with things directly they should go play somewhere else, it's not like there isn't a warning on the home page. What starts on the net should stay on the net. By the way it wasn't hard to work out who it was, but are they big enough to admit it? Wow. If anyone is really doing this, you should say who it is so Rick can ban them from the group. That's truly reprehensible. Why? From the TBer's viewpoint, some people who post to on FFL are definitely off the program and lying about it to get into the Domes. Which people who post on FFL?? Did I miss something? If you accept, without question, that this dilutes/interferes/whatever with the process within the Domes, it isn't a stretch to wanna blow the whistle. Some people believe that their presence in the Dome is the most important thing that they can do, and that anyone who knowingly does something that interferes with the effects of the Domes is literally threatening the world. More intimately, if you were one of the Israeli sidhas deliberately putting yourself in harm's way under the assumption that there is some kind of literal missile shield being formed around you in the 100 person group in Israel, wouldn't you be fearful for your life if you found out that the group wasn't nearly as large as you thought it was because of ringers who are really off the Program? There are many who DO believe that way and I would expect them to react in accordance with their beliefs, wouldn't you? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Jesus Freaks at the Agnostic Cafe
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: snip The thing that annoys me most about this is when someone on here forwards peoples free-thinking posts to their national office in an attempt to get them in trouble. Isn't it just the most pathetic thing you ever heard? If people can't deal with things directly they should go play somewhere else, it's not like there isn't a warning on the home page. What starts on the net should stay on the net. By the way it wasn't hard to work out who it was, but are they big enough to admit it? Wow. If anyone is really doing this, you should say who it is so Rick can ban them from the group. That's truly reprehensible. Why? From the TBer's viewpoint, some people who post to on FFL are definitely off the program and lying about it to get into the Domes. Which people who post on FFL?? Did I miss something? Ones who have other gurus and so on. I assume that SOME of them want to be on the course or otherwise have something to do withthe TMO or it would make no sense to report them to National. And it would make no sense for you to consider the actions of the tattle-tales as reprensible unless you thought there was some specific consequence of the action. I mean, if no-one cares, why would someone's actions be reprehensible rather than merely silly? If you accept, without question, that this dilutes/interferes/whatever with the process within the Domes, it isn't a stretch to wanna blow the whistle. Some people believe that their presence in the Dome is the most important thing that they can do, and that anyone who knowingly does something that interferes with the effects of the Domes is literally threatening the world. More intimately, if you were one of the Israeli sidhas deliberately putting yourself in harm's way under the assumption that there is some kind of literal missile shield being formed around you in the 100 person group in Israel, wouldn't you be fearful for your life if you found out that the group wasn't nearly as large as you thought it was because of ringers who are really off the Program? There are many who DO believe that way and I would expect them to react in accordance with their beliefs, wouldn't you? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Jesus Freaks at the Agnostic Cafe
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: snip The thing that annoys me most about this is when someone on here forwards peoples free-thinking posts to their national office in an attempt to get them in trouble. Isn't it just the most pathetic thing you ever heard? If people can't deal with things directly they should go play somewhere else, it's not like there isn't a warning on the home page. What starts on the net should stay on the net. By the way it wasn't hard to work out who it was, but are they big enough to admit it? Wow. If anyone is really doing this, you should say who it is so Rick can ban them from the group. That's truly reprehensible. Why? From the TBer's viewpoint, some people who post to on FFL are definitely off the program and lying about it to get into the Domes. Which people who post on FFL?? Did I miss something? Ones who have other gurus and so on. I assume that SOME of them want to be on the course or otherwise have something to do with the TMO or it would make no sense to report them to National. Well, something to do with the TMO, maybe, although I'm not aware any of the off-the-program folks here who have anything to do with the TMO, are you? And it would make no sense for you to consider the actions of the tattle-tales as reprensible unless you thought there was some specific consequence of the action. I mean, if no-one cares, why would someone's actions be reprehensible rather than merely silly? Why on earth would you assume no one cares? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Jesus Freaks at the Agnostic Cafe
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: snip The thing that annoys me most about this is when someone on here forwards peoples free-thinking posts to their national office in an attempt to get them in trouble. Isn't it just the most pathetic thing you ever heard? If people can't deal with things directly they should go play somewhere else, it's not like there isn't a warning on the home page. What starts on the net should stay on the net. By the way it wasn't hard to work out who it was, but are they big enough to admit it? Wow. If anyone is really doing this, you should say who it is so Rick can ban them from the group. That's truly reprehensible. Why? From the TBer's viewpoint, some people who post to on FFL are definitely off the program and lying about it to get into the Domes. Which people who post on FFL?? Did I miss something? Ones who have other gurus and so on. I assume that SOME of them want to be on the course or otherwise have something to do with the TMO or it would make no sense to report them to National. Well, something to do with the TMO, maybe, although I'm not aware any of the off-the-program folks here who have anything to do with the TMO, are you? And it would make no sense for you to consider the actions of the tattle-tales as reprensible unless you thought there was some specific consequence of the action. I mean, if no-one cares, why would someone's actions be reprehensible rather than merely silly? Why on earth would you assume no one cares? Unless someone has some desire to participate in TMO functions, why would they or anyone else (such as officials of some kind in the TMO) care what is said on this forum? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
