Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven
Its different for Brits From: salyavin808 fintlewoodle...@mail.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 8, 2013 1:38 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven You mean there's no magical place we fly off to when we die to spend eternity with angels and loved ones in a palace of holy joy? I'll be jiggered.. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@... wrote: At least, not from Eben Alexander, author of the bestselling book Proof of Heaven, about his purported extended near-death experience during surgery. It seems he may have perpetrated a scam for fame and fortune. An article in Esquire researched his background and found, among other things, that he wasn't such a good neurosurgeon. He was let go from more than one hospital position and was fighting five different malpractice lawsuits when he became ill. He also misrepresented the course of his treatment, according to one of his physicians. The Esquire article is behind a paywall (you can read it for two bucks; I haven't), but there have been several stories about what the article found; here's one: http://news.yahoo.com/proof-heaven-author-now-thoroughly-debunked-science-131711093.html http://tinyurl.com/k5vblh7
[FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson mjackson74@... wrote: Its different for Brits It must be different for a lot of people, if you believe in reincarnation then proof of heaven means your religion has been barking up the wrong tree! I can see a lot of people being annoyed about that. I hope there's an afterlife, I'll be on the same cloud as Richard Dawkins, who will be blushing a lot I'm sure... From: salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 8, 2013 1:38 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven  You mean there's no magical place we fly off to when we die to spend eternity with angels and loved ones in a palace of holy joy? I'll be jiggered.. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@ wrote: At least, not from Eben Alexander, author of the bestselling book Proof of Heaven, about his purported extended near-death experience during surgery. It seems he may have perpetrated a scam for fame and fortune. An article in Esquire researched his background and found, among other things, that he wasn't such a good neurosurgeon. He was let go from more than one hospital position and was fighting five different malpractice lawsuits when he became ill. He also misrepresented the course of his treatment, according to one of his physicians. The Esquire article is behind a paywall (you can read it for two bucks; I haven't), but there have been several stories about what the article found; here's one: http://news.yahoo.com/proof-heaven-author-now-thoroughly-debunked-science-131711093.html http://tinyurl.com/k5vblh7
[FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson mjackson74@ wrote: Its different for Brits It must be different for a lot of people, if you believe in reincarnation then proof of heaven means your religion has been barking up the wrong tree! I can see a lot of people being annoyed about that. I hope there's an afterlife, I'll be on the same cloud as Richard Dawkins, who will be blushing a lot I'm sure... But not singing hymns: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wogta8alHiU
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven
Brits go to a Downton Abby-ish kind of universe where one's karma determines whether one will be a servant living in hovel type conditions or one of the lazy Lords 'n' Ladies upper crust who have no clue that the servants are anything other than part of the background - unless of course you are the Earl who is banging one of the maids Unless they've been quite naughty, in which case they are consigned to a Game of Thrones kind of Ireland where pretty much everybody gets screwed at some point. From: salyavin808 fintlewoodle...@mail.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 8, 2013 8:15 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson mjackson74@... wrote: Its different for Brits It must be different for a lot of people, if you believe in reincarnation then proof of heaven means your religion has been barking up the wrong tree! I can see a lot of people being annoyed about that. I hope there's an afterlife, I'll be on the same cloud as Richard Dawkins, who will be blushing a lot I'm sure... From: salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 8, 2013 1:38 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven  You mean there's no magical place we fly off to when we die to spend eternity with angels and loved ones in a palace of holy joy? I'll be jiggered.. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@ wrote: At least, not from Eben Alexander, author of the bestselling book Proof of Heaven, about his purported extended near-death experience during surgery. It seems he may have perpetrated a scam for fame and fortune. An article in Esquire researched his background and found, among other things, that he wasn't such a good neurosurgeon. He was let go from more than one hospital position and was fighting five different malpractice lawsuits when he became ill. He also misrepresented the course of his treatment, according to one of his physicians. The Esquire article is behind a paywall (you can read it for two bucks; I haven't), but there have been several stories about what the article found; here's one: http://news.yahoo.com/proof-heaven-author-now-thoroughly-debunked-science-131711093.html http://tinyurl.com/k5vblh7
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven
you think Christopher Hitchens will be on the same cloud too? From: salyavin808 fintlewoodle...@mail.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 8, 2013 8:15 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson mjackson74@... wrote: Its different for Brits It must be different for a lot of people, if you believe in reincarnation then proof of heaven means your religion has been barking up the wrong tree! I can see a lot of people being annoyed about that. I hope there's an afterlife, I'll be on the same cloud as Richard Dawkins, who will be blushing a lot I'm sure... From: salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 8, 2013 1:38 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven  You mean there's no magical place we fly off to when we die to spend eternity with angels and loved ones in a palace of holy joy? I'll be jiggered.. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@ wrote: At least, not from Eben Alexander, author of the bestselling book Proof of Heaven, about his purported extended near-death experience during surgery. It seems he may have perpetrated a scam for fame and fortune. An article in Esquire researched his background and found, among other things, that he wasn't such a good neurosurgeon. He was let go from more than one hospital position and was fighting five different malpractice lawsuits when he became ill. He also misrepresented the course of his treatment, according to one of his physicians. The Esquire article is behind a paywall (you can read it for two bucks; I haven't), but there have been several stories about what the article found; here's one: http://news.yahoo.com/proof-heaven-author-now-thoroughly-debunked-science-131711093.html http://tinyurl.com/k5vblh7
[FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@... wrote: You mean there's no magical place we fly off to when we die to spend eternity with angels and loved ones in a palace of holy joy? I'll be jiggered.. Well, not that Alexander can tell us about, at any rate. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@ wrote: At least, not from Eben Alexander, author of the bestselling book Proof of Heaven, about his purported extended near-death experience during surgery. It seems he may have perpetrated a scam for fame and fortune. An article in Esquire researched his background and found, among other things, that he wasn't such a good neurosurgeon. He was let go from more than one hospital position and was fighting five different malpractice lawsuits when he became ill. He also misrepresented the course of his treatment, according to one of his physicians. The Esquire article is behind a paywall (you can read it for two bucks; I haven't), but there have been several stories about what the article found; here's one: http://news.yahoo.com/proof-heaven-author-now-thoroughly-debunked-science-131711093.html http://tinyurl.com/k5vblh7
[FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven
You mean there's no magical place we fly off to when we die to spend eternity with angels and loved ones in a palace of holy joy? I'll be jiggered.. authfriend: Well, not that Alexander can tell us about, at any rate. You are supposed to read the book BEFORE you post your comments. And, when you have a NDE you'll know, at any rate, something to tell us about. LoL! Science 101 teaches that a proof requires that a hypothesis can be put to a test, and that the results obtained can be replicated by other tests by other scientists. An NDE experience can be a belief, but it is not a proof, as most any doctor should know. Go figure. At least, not from Eben Alexander, author of the bestselling book Proof of Heaven, about his purported extended near-death experience during surgery. It seems he may have perpetrated a scam for fame and fortune. An article in Esquire researched his background and found, among other things, that he wasn't such a good neurosurgeon. He was let go from more than one hospital position and was fighting five different malpractice lawsuits when he became ill. He also misrepresented the course of his treatment, according to one of his physicians. The Esquire article is behind a paywall (you can read it for two bucks; I haven't), but there have been several stories about what the article found; here's one: http://news.yahoo.com/proof-heaven-author-now-thoroughly-debunked-science-131711093.html http://tinyurl.com/k5vblh7
[FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven
mjackson74: Its different for Brits What!? You mean there's no magical place we fly off to when we die to spend eternity with angels and loved ones in a palace of holy joy? I'll be jiggered.. At least, not from Eben Alexander, author of the bestselling book Proof of Heaven, about his purported extended near-death experience during surgery. It seems he may have perpetrated a scam for fame and fortune. An article in Esquire researched his background and found, among other things, that he wasn't such a good neurosurgeon. He was let go from more than one hospital position and was fighting five different malpractice lawsuits when he became ill. He also misrepresented the course of his treatment, according to one of his physicians. The Esquire article is behind a paywall (you can read it for two bucks; I haven't), but there have been several stories about what the article found; here's one: http://news.yahoo.com/proof-heaven-author-now-thoroughly-debunked-science-131711093.html http://tinyurl.com/k5vblh7
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven
Steve Martin IQ? 142 (-: From: turquoiseb no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 8, 2013 7:37 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson mjackson74@ wrote: Its different for Brits It must be different for a lot of people, if you believe in reincarnation then proof of heaven means your religion has been barking up the wrong tree! I can see a lot of people being annoyed about that. I hope there's an afterlife, I'll be on the same cloud as Richard Dawkins, who will be blushing a lot I'm sure... But not singing hymns: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wogta8alHiU
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven
From my friend Alex Tsakiris of Skeptiko.com Hi Rick... good to hear from you. Was just listening to a BATGAP 5 minutes ago after dropping off my daughter at swim camp... nice transition. Wanted to again tell you how much I appreciate what you're doing. I particularly like when you challenge guests (just a bit) and reflect back what you're encountered through your experience and through your many interviews. The mosaic (as pictured on your site) is the message :) Re Eben Alexander, been writing a lot about it over the last week... some of it here: http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-podcast/5360-esquire-misrepresents-dal ai-lama-attacks-dr-eben-alexanders-nde.html Quote: Originally Posted by Bucky http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-podcast/5360-esquire-misrepresents-da lai-lama-attacks-dr-eben-alexanders-nde.html#post156424 Hmmm... between 45:00 and 48:00 the Dalai Lama is saying that for the third category of phenomena, those that are more hidden and obscure, we rely on the testimony of experiencers and therefore we need to investigate these testimonies to make sure they are reliable. I an all honesty it doesn't sound that far from the article quotation. The Dalai Lama didn't use the extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof mantra, but he's definitely saying that we need don't just take things at their face value when confronted with phenomena that are difficult to comprehend. Wait a minute, Luke Dittrich's underlying theme, the whole basis of the article, is that the biological robot meme is true... that all this NDE stuff is nonsense and we can go back to business as usual. It's not like he's saying, gee, there are a lot of good NDE cases out there, and a pretty substantial body of NDE research, I just don't like this one. No, he's saying, don't worry all you lovers of the fruits of scientific materialism, it's all ok, go back to sleep. So, for Luke to suggest that Alexander squirmed in his seat as the Dalai Lama called him out on a fake story is terrible journalism. It misrepresents that fact that Dalai Lama is completely convinced of the reality of experiences like Alexander's and completely opposed to the kind of closed-minded-do-anything-to-defend-the-status-quo science that this article bolsters. and here: another gross misrepresentation in the article is the suggestion that Alexander was hurting financially because of the $3M malpractice suit filed against him (as if that isn't covered by insurance)... and that this led him to cook up the idea of writing a bestseller to turn around his fortunes. you gotta read the full article to see how slanted it really is: http://d.pr/xWTy bottom line... the article is a it's a culture war hit piece with a goal of arming atheists with mud-balls to throw at a big target (Alexander sold a lot of books and made a big splash)... of course, that doesn't mean it's not effective. Alexander is gonna take a credibility hit from this. what is completely lost in all of this is that there is absolutely no medical explanation for Alexander's experience given his medical condition (whether the comma was partially induced or not). I mean, they had CAT-scans... his brain was gone. the battle is a culture war battle versus a battle over the science... materialists/atheists (like your buddy Bill Maher) must insist that we are biological robots -- no exceptions -- or their worldview crumbles. to most (probably 90% of Americans) this is a silly notion they dismiss without ever directly addressing the absurdity it implies... i.e. of course my life has meaning... of course love is real... of course I have free will. BTW I have booked a guest for a global warming show. wasn't going to go there until I had another guest (who I like and respect) fall into the same trap you have :) Best, Alex
[FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven
More interesting is nuerologist Dr Kevin Nelson's book 'The Spiritual Doorway in the Brain'. Probably less interesting to the after-life crowd. He is strictly science in attempting to explain these experiences, but he recognises the value and importance these experiences have to people who have had them. He says one of the problems in this kind of research (which he has been doing for 30 years) is it is not possible to track down the exact time these experiences occur. For example, during cardiac arrest, there is usually still some limited blood flow to the brain, at least for a time. It has not been possible to tell when in the sequence of being unconscious and waking up the experiences happen. In these hospital situations patients may be hooked up to an EKG, but not an EEG, so brain waves are not monitored so the inference that a a flat EKG also equals a flat EEG is not scientifically robust. Certain people are more prone to these kinds of exeperiences and there seems to be a probable physical explanation. Also these kinds of experiences occur in other situations, such as military centrifuge training. There was an interview with Nelson that Judy and I discussed at one point. Nelson seemed rather combative in that interview (perhaps because the interviewer was pushing the heaven is real POV), but his book is not and treats these experiences as extraordinarily life changing for people. But he is very into showing that these experiences have a rational physical explanation for their occurrence.
[FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer rick@... wrote: From my friend Alex Tsakiris of Skeptiko.com (snip) you gotta read the full article to see how slanted it really is: http://d.pr/xWTy There doesn't seem to be any text in this PDF. It's just the cover page of the article and a photo, nothing of the body of the article. I guess your friend thought he'd get around the paywall for his audience by making a PDF, but it doesn't seem to have worked. Maybe Esquire did something to ensure you couldn't evade paying $2 for the article?
[FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven
Here is another take on these experiences: http://tinyurl.com/c94jp5j [ http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/12/seeing-god-in-the-third-millennium/266134/ ] --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer rick@ wrote: From my friend Alex Tsakiris of Skeptiko.com (snip) you gotta read the full article to see how slanted it really is: http://d.pr/xWTy There doesn't seem to be any text in this PDF. It's just the cover page of the article and a photo, nothing of the body of the article. I guess your friend thought he'd get around the paywall for his audience by making a PDF, but it doesn't seem to have worked. Maybe Esquire did something to ensure you couldn't evade paying $2 for the article?
[FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven
Here we go. Someone pasted in the whole Esquire article on the Skeptico forum Alex refers to. Scroll not quite halfway down the page to Sandy B for the first of four parts: http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-podcast/5360-esquire-misrepresents-dalai-lama-attacks-dr-eben-alexanders-nde-3.html http://tinyurl.com/m7wjts7 The article is pretty cynical, but unless the writer is deliberately misrepresenting what he found in his research, Alexander's reliability appears to be very questionable. Sorry, Rick, but I think your friend Alex has missed the boat here. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer rick@ wrote: From my friend Alex Tsakiris of Skeptiko.com (snip) you gotta read the full article to see how slanted it really is: http://d.pr/xWTy There doesn't seem to be any text in this PDF. It's just the cover page of the article and a photo, nothing of the body of the article. I guess your friend thought he'd get around the paywall for his audience by making a PDF, but it doesn't seem to have worked. Maybe Esquire did something to ensure you couldn't evade paying $2 for the article?
[FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven
Kinda funny, because anyone truly with the capability to see Heaven, also has the capability to see Hell. Sounds like this chap bit off a lot more than he could chew.:-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@... wrote: At least, not from Eben Alexander, author of the bestselling book Proof of Heaven, about his purported extended near-death experience during surgery. It seems he may have perpetrated a scam for fame and fortune. An article in Esquire researched his background and found, among other things, that he wasn't such a good neurosurgeon. He was let go from more than one hospital position and was fighting five different malpractice lawsuits when he became ill. He also misrepresented the course of his treatment, according to one of his physicians. The Esquire article is behind a paywall (you can read it for two bucks; I haven't), but there have been several stories about what the article found; here's one: http://news.yahoo.com/proof-heaven-author-now-thoroughly-debunked-science-131711093.html http://tinyurl.com/k5vblh7
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven
I would hate for this to be true, but there were a few things about the book that seemed off tome when I read it - the whole thing imo hinges on whether his attending doc is telling the truth about putting him into a chemically induced coma - oh well, he wouldn't be the first huckster to target the religious and new age-y crowd From: doctordumb...@rocketmail.com doctordumb...@rocketmail.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2013 5:08 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven Kinda funny, because anyone truly with the capability to see Heaven, also has the capability to see Hell. Sounds like this chap bit off a lot more than he could chew.:-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@... wrote: At least, not from Eben Alexander, author of the bestselling book Proof of Heaven, about his purported extended near-death experience during surgery. It seems he may have perpetrated a scam for fame and fortune. An article in Esquire researched his background and found, among other things, that he wasn't such a good neurosurgeon. He was let go from more than one hospital position and was fighting five different malpractice lawsuits when he became ill. He also misrepresented the course of his treatment, according to one of his physicians. The Esquire article is behind a paywall (you can read it for two bucks; I haven't), but there have been several stories about what the article found; here's one: http://news.yahoo.com/proof-heaven-author-now-thoroughly-debunked-science-131711093.html http://tinyurl.com/k5vblh7
[FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson mjackson74@... wrote: I would hate for this to be true, but there were a few things about the book that seemed off tome when I read it - the whole thing imo hinges on whether his attending doc is telling the truth about putting him into a chemically induced coma You could be right, but I have a hunch there's more from the physician in the Esquire article about stuff he said that didn't happen the way he claimed. I'm not curious $2 worth to read it, though. - oh well, he wouldn't be the first huckster to target the religious and new age-y crowd From: doctordumbass@... doctordumbass@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2013 5:08 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven  Kinda funny, because anyone truly with the capability to see Heaven, also has the capability to see Hell. Sounds like this chap bit off a lot more than he could chew.:-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@ wrote: At least, not from Eben Alexander, author of the bestselling book Proof of Heaven, about his purported extended near-death experience during surgery. It seems he may have perpetrated a scam for fame and fortune. An article in Esquire researched his background and found, among other things, that he wasn't such a good neurosurgeon. He was let go from more than one hospital position and was fighting five different malpractice lawsuits when he became ill. He also misrepresented the course of his treatment, according to one of his physicians. The Esquire article is behind a paywall (you can read it for two bucks; I haven't), but there have been several stories about what the article found; here's one: http://news.yahoo.com/proof-heaven-author-now-thoroughly-debunked-science-131711093.html http://tinyurl.com/k5vblh7
[FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven
He could be relating a faithful account of his experience - Its just that both sides of the coin are available, when one side is uncovered, and it looks like he was not aware of that, initially. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson mjackson74@... wrote: I would hate for this to be true, but there were a few things about the book that seemed off tome when I read it - the whole thing imo hinges on whether his attending doc is telling the truth about putting him into a chemically induced coma - oh well, he wouldn't be the first huckster to target the religious and new age-y crowd From: doctordumbass@... doctordumbass@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2013 5:08 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven  Kinda funny, because anyone truly with the capability to see Heaven, also has the capability to see Hell. Sounds like this chap bit off a lot more than he could chew.:-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@ wrote: At least, not from Eben Alexander, author of the bestselling book Proof of Heaven, about his purported extended near-death experience during surgery. It seems he may have perpetrated a scam for fame and fortune. An article in Esquire researched his background and found, among other things, that he wasn't such a good neurosurgeon. He was let go from more than one hospital position and was fighting five different malpractice lawsuits when he became ill. He also misrepresented the course of his treatment, according to one of his physicians. The Esquire article is behind a paywall (you can read it for two bucks; I haven't), but there have been several stories about what the article found; here's one: http://news.yahoo.com/proof-heaven-author-now-thoroughly-debunked-science-131711093.html http://tinyurl.com/k5vblh7
[FairfieldLife] Re: No proof of heaven
You mean there's no magical place we fly off to when we die to spend eternity with angels and loved ones in a palace of holy joy? I'll be jiggered.. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@... wrote: At least, not from Eben Alexander, author of the bestselling book Proof of Heaven, about his purported extended near-death experience during surgery. It seems he may have perpetrated a scam for fame and fortune. An article in Esquire researched his background and found, among other things, that he wasn't such a good neurosurgeon. He was let go from more than one hospital position and was fighting five different malpractice lawsuits when he became ill. He also misrepresented the course of his treatment, according to one of his physicians. The Esquire article is behind a paywall (you can read it for two bucks; I haven't), but there have been several stories about what the article found; here's one: http://news.yahoo.com/proof-heaven-author-now-thoroughly-debunked-science-131711093.html http://tinyurl.com/k5vblh7
