[FairfieldLife] Re: Quotes from the Dhammapada-P.S.
I was interrupted, so in my last post the sentence got garbled. Sin to Dante is merely an obstacle on a path, and it is an obstacle because there are consequences to be worked out. The whirlwind is a consequence of Paolo and Francesca's action. The difference between hell and purgatory for Dante was that the soul in hell suffers, but does not know that there is an end to the suffering and also does not understand why this suffering has occurred. The soul in purgatory also suffers, but it knows that there is an end to suffering and it is also very clear about why this suffering is happening. a TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Angela Mailander [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoted Buddha: You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger. This is the overall message in Dante's Divine Comedy as well. And that provides a definition of sin as that which will punish you. In most of the Buddhist thought I have heard or read, there is no real notion of sin, merely the consequences of karma. And there are two levels of karms -- one is potentially long-term, taking years or lifetimes to work out, and the other immediate. Indulging in the lower emotions is of the immediate type of karma, in that these emotions lower your state of attention *immediately*. There is no waiting. Indulge in anger, or hate, or any of the other toxic emotions (as they see them), and the resulting state of attention *is* your Hell, right here, right now. No need to wait for all that dying stuff. :-) In Dante, however, there is a divine limit set by divine mercy on how far in the wrong direction you can go, and hell is that limit. I doubt that Buddhism conceives of a divinely- set limit to the depths that a state of attention can sink to, because it doesn't need a divine to explain things. Modern Christianity thinks of hell as somewhere where you are punished for your sins eternally. In Dante, the situation was more like, hell is an eternal place, but that doesn't mean you have to hang out there forever. That would be more in accord with Buddhist thought, as I understand it. Each *state of attention* is a place, and an eternal place. The qualities of that state of attention, and the karmas of dwelling there, are pretty well-known. How long you choose to dwell there, however, is up to you. You can wake up from the dream of Hell, and its particular state of attention, at any time. The ability to wake up from the bad dream is just as available to you in Hell as it is in Heaven, or anywhere in between. It's just a matter of choice. The first long quote I posted from the Dhammapada is, in fact, often grouped under the heading Choice. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
[FairfieldLife] Re: Quotes from the Dhammapada-P.S.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Angela Mailander [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was interrupted, so in my last post the sentence got garbled. Sin to Dante is merely an obstacle on a path, and it is an obstacle because there are consequences to be worked out. The whirlwind is a consequence of Paolo and Francesca's action. The difference between hell and purgatory for Dante was that the soul in hell suffers, but does not know that there is an end to the suffering and also does not understand why this suffering has occurred. The soul in purgatory also suffers, but it knows that there is an end to suffering and it is also very clear about why this suffering is happening. a Then Dante's Hell is a stupid place -- base on retribution. Purgatory is a place of rehabilitation and and learning. Walking in the person's shoes one has hurt -- and learning from it. Sin as an obstacle and consequence. Per my last post, take what want, take all you desire, but pay the price at the door. I like this view, because it presents a framework of self-regulating education and learning form action. And is not a pejorative threat, as in the sense of you WILL pay the price dude!. The thing bought (sin) is not bad in and of it self. But it has consequences. And is an obstacle to buying other things. Like the economists market basket. You can have this OR that, but not both (at your revenue line). (Gotta love those isoquants.) Buying THIS, presents an 'opportunity cost' to buying THAT. and vice versa. Neither purchase is a sin, nor a great moral action. It is a framework like any store -- or warehouse superstore. You can buy that 65 1080p TV -- no sin in that. But you have to pay the fair price for it. That means, its not free. You have to trade so many hours of work for it. And you have to set it up. And be hassled by it when you move. The deal is -- you can enjoy it totally -- its all cool, but there is a price to pay for it. Just like anything, there is a price to pay. You can be a western yogi in India -- and may enjoy many things from that -- but there is a price for that. You can do a corporate job -- and enjoy the things from that -- but there i a price to pay for that. You can covet your neighbor's wife -- and enjoy -- but there is a price too pay for that. You can rob a bank -- and enjoy -- but there is a price to pay for that. In this view -- there is NO sin. Just payments. Some manage their credit cards wisely. Others don't. The sin is not in what is bought -- but only whether one has the resources to pay for it -- both physical payment and inner payment. And to be able to handle well any future returning payments. Like a dividend -- or a future balloon payment on a large loan. As written by the seers of old, You can get anything you want, at Alice's restaurant ...
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Quotes from the Dhammapada-P.S.
You could say that there is no sin in Dante's world. You pay a price. And he observed that there are lots of folks in the world who suffer but who do not know why they suffer. From his point of view, they are in hell. They do not remember that they are paying a price for something. That is his definition of hell. It is not a stupid place, but is populated by folks with amnesia. a new.morning [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Angela Mailander [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was interrupted, so in my last post the sentence got garbled. Sin to Dante is merely an obstacle on a path, and it is an obstacle because there are consequences to be worked out. The whirlwind is a consequence of Paolo and Francesca's action. The difference between hell and purgatory for Dante was that the soul in hell suffers, but does not know that there is an end to the suffering and also does not understand why this suffering has occurred. The soul in purgatory also suffers, but it knows that there is an end to suffering and it is also very clear about why this suffering is happening. a Then Dante's Hell is a stupid place -- base on retribution. Purgatory is a place of rehabilitation and and learning. Walking in the person's shoes one has hurt -- and learning from it. Sin as an obstacle and consequence. Per my last post, take what want, take all you desire, but pay the price at the door. I like this view, because it presents a framework of self-regulating education and learning form action. And is not a pejorative threat, as in the sense of you WILL pay the price dude!. The thing bought (sin) is not bad in and of it self. But it has consequences. And is an obstacle to buying other things. Like the economists market basket. You can have this OR that, but not both (at your revenue line). (Gotta love those isoquants.) Buying THIS, presents an 'opportunity cost' to buying THAT. and vice versa. Neither purchase is a sin, nor a great moral action. It is a framework like any store -- or warehouse superstore. You can buy that 65 1080p TV -- no sin in that. But you have to pay the fair price for it. That means, its not free. You have to trade so many hours of work for it. And you have to set it up. And be hassled by it when you move. The deal is -- you can enjoy it totally -- its all cool, but there is a price to pay for it. Just like anything, there is a price to pay. You can be a western yogi in India -- and may enjoy many things from that -- but there is a price for that. You can do a corporate job -- and enjoy the things from that -- but there i a price to pay for that. You can covet your neighbor's wife -- and enjoy -- but there is a price too pay for that. You can rob a bank -- and enjoy -- but there is a price to pay for that. In this view -- there is NO sin. Just payments. Some manage their credit cards wisely. Others don't. The sin is not in what is bought -- but only whether one has the resources to pay for it -- both physical payment and inner payment. And to be able to handle well any future returning payments. Like a dividend -- or a future balloon payment on a large loan. As written by the seers of old, You can get anything you want, at Alice's restaurant ... Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
