[FairfieldLife] Re: Sam Harris on choosing a guru :-)
Hey, it looks like you found someone to discuss the book with. Might be the only safe bet! (-: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : So how does one of the world's great atheists and opponents of religion discuss the concept of gurus? Pretty well, actually, probably because he's been exposed to more of them than most people on this forum. Having realized that he was advising people to learn how to meditate and thus possibly exposing them to the world of spiritual teachers and gurus, he raps at one point about gurus. The result is classic Sam Harris -- the first paragraph is balanced and useful and compassionate, the second is hilariously barbed and IMO right on, and the last sentence conveys the pragmatic bottom line: The gurus I have met personally, as well as those whose careers and teachings I have studied at a distance, range from crooks who could be quickly dismissed to teachers who were brilliant but flawed, to those who, while still human, seemed to possess so much compassion and clarity of mind that they were nearly flawless examples of the benefits of spiritual practice. This last group is of obvious interest, and these are surely the people one hopes to meet, but the middle group can be helpful as well. Some teachers about whom depressing stories are told—men and women whose indiscretions may seem to discredit the very concept of spiritual authority—are, in fact, talented contemplatives. Many of these people get corrupted by the power and opportunities that come from inspiring devotion in others. Some may begin to believe the myths that grow up around them, and some are guilty of ludicrous exaggerations of their own spiritual and historical significance. Caveat emptor. Of course, there can be clear indications that a teacher is not worth paying attention to. A history as a fabulist or a con artist should be considered fatal; thus, the spiritual opinions of Joseph Smith, Gurdjieff, and L. Ron Hubbard can be safely ignored. A fetish for numbers is also an ominous sign. Math is magical, but math approached like magic is just superstition—and numerology is where the intellect goes to die. Prophecy is also a very strong indication of chicanery or madness on the part of a teacher, and of stupidity among his students. One can extrapolate from scientific data or technological trends (climate models, Moore’s law), but most detailed predictions about the future lead to embarrassment right on schedule. Anyone who can confidently tell you what the world will be like in 2027 is delusional. The channeling of invisible entities, whether broadcast from beyond the grave or from another galaxy, should provoke only laughter. J. Z. Knight, who has long claimed to be the mouthpiece for a 35,000-year-old entity named Ramtha, is the ultimate example of how you don’t want your teacher to sound. And any suggestion that a guru has influenced world events through magic should also put an end to the conversation. Sri Aurobindo and his partner, known as “the Mother,” apparently claimed to have decided the outcome of World War II with their psychic powers.9 https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/part0015.html#ich5note9 (In that case, one wonders why they weren’t held morally responsible for not having ended it sooner.) Yet another reason to ignore Aurobindo’s long, unreadable books. Generally speaking, you should head for the door at any sign of deception on the part of a teacher.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sam Harris on choosing a guru :-)
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : Hey, it looks like you found someone to discuss the book with. Might be the only safe bet! (-: Yes, bawee also likes to talk to himself. He seems to be the only person he can stand to listen to, except when he finds himself disagreeing with himself. LOL. What a shmuck. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : So how does one of the world's great atheists and opponents of religion discuss the concept of gurus? Pretty well, actually, probably because he's been exposed to more of them than most people on this forum. Having realized that he was advising people to learn how to meditate and thus possibly exposing them to the world of spiritual teachers and gurus, he raps at one point about gurus. The result is classic Sam Harris -- the first paragraph is balanced and useful and compassionate, the second is hilariously barbed and IMO right on, and the last sentence conveys the pragmatic bottom line: The gurus I have met personally, as well as those whose careers and teachings I have studied at a distance, range from crooks who could be quickly dismissed to teachers who were brilliant but flawed, to those who, while still human, seemed to possess so much compassion and clarity of mind that they were nearly flawless examples of the benefits of spiritual practice. This last group is of obvious interest, and these are surely the people one hopes to meet, but the middle group can be helpful as well. Some teachers about whom depressing stories are told—men and women whose indiscretions may seem to discredit the very concept of spiritual authority—are, in fact, talented contemplatives. Many of these people get corrupted by the power and opportunities that come from inspiring devotion in others. Some may begin to believe the myths that grow up around them, and some are guilty of ludicrous exaggerations of their own spiritual and historical significance. Caveat emptor. Of course, there can be clear indications that a teacher is not worth paying attention to. A history as a fabulist or a con artist should be considered fatal; thus, the spiritual opinions of Joseph Smith, Gurdjieff, and L. Ron Hubbard can be safely ignored. A fetish for numbers is also an ominous sign. Math is magical, but math approached like magic is just superstition—and numerology is where the intellect goes to die. Prophecy is also a very strong indication of chicanery or madness on the part of a teacher, and of stupidity among his students. One can extrapolate from scientific data or technological trends (climate models, Moore’s law), but most detailed predictions about the future lead to embarrassment right on schedule. Anyone who can confidently tell you what the world will be like in 2027 is delusional. The channeling of invisible entities, whether broadcast from beyond the grave or from another galaxy, should provoke only laughter. J. Z. Knight, who has long claimed to be the mouthpiece for a 35,000-year-old entity named Ramtha, is the ultimate example of how you don’t want your teacher to sound. And any suggestion that a guru has influenced world events through magic should also put an end to the conversation. Sri Aurobindo and his partner, known as “the Mother,” apparently claimed to have decided the outcome of World War II with their psychic powers.9 https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/part0015.html#ich5note9 (In that case, one wonders why they weren’t held morally responsible for not having ended it sooner.) Yet another reason to ignore Aurobindo’s long, unreadable books. Generally speaking, you should head for the door at any sign of deception on the part of a teacher.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sam Harris on choosing a guru :-)
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : So how does one of the world's great atheists and opponents of religion discuss the concept of gurus? Pretty well, actually, probably because he's been exposed to more of them than most people on this forum. Having realized that he was advising people to learn how to meditate and thus possibly exposing them to the world of spiritual teachers and gurus, he raps at one point about gurus. The result is classic Sam Harris -- the first paragraph is balanced and useful and compassionate, the second is hilariously barbed and IMO right on, and the last sentence conveys the pragmatic bottom line: The gurus I have met personally, as well as those whose careers and teachings I have studied at a distance, range from crooks who could be quickly dismissed to teachers who were brilliant but flawed, to those who, while still human, seemed to possess so much compassion and clarity of mind that they were nearly flawless examples of the benefits of spiritual practice. This last group is of obvious interest, and these are surely the people one hopes to meet, but the middle group can be helpful as well. Some teachers about whom depressing stories are told—men and women whose indiscretions may seem to discredit the very concept of spiritual authority—are, in fact, talented contemplatives. Many of these people get corrupted by the power and opportunities that come from inspiring devotion in others. Some may begin to believe the myths that grow up around them, and some are guilty of ludicrous exaggerations of their own spiritual and historical significance. Caveat emptor. Of course, there can be clear indications that a teacher is not worth paying attention to. A history as a fabulist or a con artist should be considered fatal; thus, the spiritual opinions of Joseph Smith, Gurdjieff, and L. Ron Hubbard can be safely ignored. A fetish for numbers is also an ominous sign. Math is magical, but math approached like magic is just superstition—and numerology is where the intellect goes to die. Prophecy is also a very strong indication of chicanery or madness on the part of a teacher, and of stupidity among his students. One can extrapolate from scientific data or technological trends (climate models, Moore’s law), but most detailed predictions about the future lead to embarrassment right on schedule. Anyone who can confidently tell you what the world will be like in 2027 is delusional. The channeling of invisible entities, whether broadcast from beyond the grave or from another galaxy, should provoke only laughter. J. Z. Knight, who has long claimed to be the mouthpiece for a 35,000-year-old entity named Ramtha, is the ultimate example of how you don’t want your teacher to sound. And any suggestion that a guru has influenced world events through magic should also put an end to the conversation. Sri Aurobindo and his partner, known as “the Mother,” apparently claimed to have decided the outcome of World War II with their psychic powers.9 https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/part0015.html#ich5note9 (In that case, one wonders why they weren’t held morally responsible for not having ended it sooner.) Yet another reason to ignore Aurobindo’s long, unreadable books. Generally speaking, you should head for the door at any sign of deception on the part of a teacher. Sage advice. I like the bit about ending WW2 but I always thought it was GuruDev who did that with a yagya? I always thought it was a shame that the TMO have obviously forgotten the words as super powers like that would come in mighty handy in these dark days. Doesn't stop them screwing money out of the faithful so they can allegedly keep trying I notice. I know you left it all deliberately unsaid and it was probably much more effective for that, but I'm enjoying the quotes and one day, when I'm not so busy, will sit down and give it a considered read.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sam Harris on choosing a guru :-)
those who, while still human, seemed to possess so much compassion and clarity of mind that they were nearly flawless examples of the benefits of spiritual practice Name them please. From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2014 11:19 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sam Harris on choosing a guru :-) ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : So how does one of the world's great atheists and opponents of religion discuss the concept of gurus? Pretty well, actually, probably because he's been exposed to more of them than most people on this forum. Having realized that he was advising people to learn how to meditate and thus possibly exposing them to the world of spiritual teachers and gurus, he raps at one point about gurus. The result is classic Sam Harris -- the first paragraph is balanced and useful and compassionate, the second is hilariously barbed and IMO right on, and the last sentence conveys the pragmatic bottom line: The gurus I have met personally, as well as those whose careers and teachings I have studied at a distance, range from crooks who could be quickly dismissed to teachers who were brilliant but flawed, to those who, while still human, seemed to possess so much compassion and clarity of mind that they were nearly flawless examples of the benefits of spiritual practice. This last group is of obvious interest, and these are surely the people one hopes to meet, but the middle group can be helpful as well. Some teachers about whom depressing stories are told—men and women whose indiscretions may seem to discredit the very concept of spiritual authority—are, in fact, talented contemplatives. Many of these people get corrupted by the power and opportunities that come from inspiring devotion in others. Some may begin to believe the myths that grow up around them, and some are guilty of ludicrous exaggerations of their own spiritual and historical significance. Caveat emptor. Of course, there can be clear indications that a teacher is not worth paying attention to. A history as a fabulist or a con artist should be considered fatal; thus, the spiritual opinions of Joseph Smith, Gurdjieff, and L. Ron Hubbard can be safely ignored. A fetish for numbers is also an ominous sign. Math is magical, but math approached like magic is just superstition—and numerology is where the intellect goes to die. Prophecy is also a very strong indication of chicanery or madness on the part of a teacher, and of stupidity among his students. One can extrapolate from scientific data or technological trends (climate models, Moore’s law), but most detailed predictions about the future lead to embarrassment right on schedule. Anyone who can confidently tell you what the world will be like in 2027 is delusional. The channeling of invisible entities, whether broadcast from beyond the grave or from another galaxy, should provoke only laughter. J. Z. Knight, who has long claimed to be the mouthpiece for a 35,000-year-old entity named Ramtha, is the ultimate example of how you don’t want your teacher to sound. And any suggestion that a guru has influenced world events through magic should also put an end to the conversation. Sri Aurobindo and his partner, known as “the Mother,” apparently claimed to have decided the outcome of World War II with their psychic powers.9 (In that case, one wonders why they weren’t held morally responsible for not having ended it sooner.) Yet another reason to ignore Aurobindo’s long, unreadable books. Generally speaking, you should head for the door at any sign of deception on the part of a teacher. Sage advice. I like the bit about ending WW2 but I always thought it was GuruDev who did that with a yagya? I always thought it was a shame that the TMO have obviously forgotten the words as super powers like that would come in mighty handy in these dark days. Doesn't stop them screwing money out of the faithful so they can allegedly keep trying I notice. I know you left it all deliberately unsaid and it was probably much more effective for that, but I'm enjoying the quotes and one day, when I'm not so busy, will sit down and give it a considered read.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sam Harris on choosing a guru :-)
From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : So how does one of the world's great atheists and opponents of religion discuss the concept of gurus? Pretty well, actually, probably because he's been exposed to more of them than most people on this forum. Having realized that he was advising people to learn how to meditate and thus possibly exposing them to the world of spiritual teachers and gurus, he raps at one point about gurus. The result is classic Sam Harris -- the first paragraph is balanced and useful and compassionate, the second is hilariously barbed and IMO right on, and the last sentence conveys the pragmatic bottom line: The gurus I have met personally, as well as those whose careers and teachings I have studied at a distance, range from crooks who could be quickly dismissed to teachers who were brilliant but flawed, to those who, while still human, seemed to possess so much compassion and clarity of mind that they were nearly flawless examples of the benefits of spiritual practice. This last group is of obvious interest, and these are surely the people one hopes to meet, but the middle group can be helpful as well. Some teachers about whom depressing stories are told—men and women whose indiscretions may seem to discredit the very concept of spiritual authority—are, in fact, talented contemplatives. Many of these people get corrupted by the power and opportunities that come from inspiring devotion in others. Some may begin to believe the myths that grow up around them, and some are guilty of ludicrous exaggerations of their own spiritual and historical significance. Caveat emptor. Of course, there can be clear indications that a teacher is not worth paying attention to. A history as a fabulist or a con artist should be considered fatal; thus, the spiritual opinions of Joseph Smith, Gurdjieff, and L. Ron Hubbard can be safely ignored. A fetish for numbers is also an ominous sign. Math is magical, but math approached like magic is just superstition—and numerology is where the intellect goes to die. Prophecy is also a very strong indication of chicanery or madness on the part of a teacher, and of stupidity among his students. One can extrapolate from scientific data or technological trends (climate models, Moore’s law), but most detailed predictions about the future lead to embarrassment right on schedule. Anyone who can confidently tell you what the world will be like in 2027 is delusional. The channeling of invisible entities, whether broadcast from beyond the grave or from another galaxy, should provoke only laughter. J. Z. Knight, who has long claimed to be the mouthpiece for a 35,000-year-old entity named Ramtha, is the ultimate example of how you don’t want your teacher to sound. And any suggestion that a guru has influenced world events through magic should also put an end to the conversation. Sri Aurobindo and his partner, known as “the Mother,” apparently claimed to have decided the outcome of World War II with their psychic powers.9 (In that case, one wonders why they weren’t held morally responsible for not having ended it sooner.) Yet another reason to ignore Aurobindo’s long, unreadable books. Generally speaking, you should head for the door at any sign of deception on the part of a teacher. Sage advice. I like the bit about ending WW2 but I always thought it was GuruDev who did that with a yagya? I always thought it was a shame that the TMO have obviously forgotten the words as super powers like that would come in mighty handy in these dark days. Doesn't stop them screwing money out of the faithful so they can allegedly keep trying I notice. I know you left it all deliberately unsaid and it was probably much more effective for that, but I'm enjoying the quotes and one day, when I'm not so busy, will sit down and give it a considered read. No problemo. I thought it was a worthwhile read (and blessedly short!), and I think that there is much meat for discussion in the book. But if no one feels similarly, I'll just post occasional quotes here myself as drive-bys, to see if they get a reaction. Just did that with one of his quotes on mindfulness practice that I resonated with. I do admit to LOL-ing over occasional lines like numerology is where the intellect goes to die and Prophecy is also a very strong indication of chicanery or madness on the part of a teacher, and of stupidity among his students. Wish I'd said that first. :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sam Harris on choosing a guru :-)
From: Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com those who, while still human, seemed to possess so much compassion and clarity of mind that they were nearly flawless examples of the benefits of spiritual practice Name them please. Read the book. Or better yet, find them yourself. Best, find them IN yourself. :-) That's what I suspect Sam Harris would advocate, since that's what he did himself. He is not advocating going out and finding a guru, just dealing with the subject because he knows that some of his readers are going to feel that they need one. And he is very, very open about the value of learning to meditate from someone who is better at it than you are, and who can teach it to you more quickly and effectively, as some of the Dogzchen teachers can do. So IMO he's just passing along good advice about dealing with guru types aimed at people who haven't had any experience with such types. I've met a couple of people in my life who I could apply Sam's description to without hesitation. Neither is a guru per se and neither -- to my knowledge -- works with students in a guru-student relationship. But they were pretty cool dudes. One is from Bhutan and makes films, and the other is a Tibetan monk who spent 40 years imprisoned and tortured by the Chinese, and who came away from the experience feeling nothing but compassion for them. From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2014 11:19 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sam Harris on choosing a guru :-) ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : So how does one of the world's great atheists and opponents of religion discuss the concept of gurus? Pretty well, actually, probably because he's been exposed to more of them than most people on this forum. Having realized that he was advising people to learn how to meditate and thus possibly exposing them to the world of spiritual teachers and gurus, he raps at one point about gurus. The result is classic Sam Harris -- the first paragraph is balanced and useful and compassionate, the second is hilariously barbed and IMO right on, and the last sentence conveys the pragmatic bottom line: The gurus I have met personally, as well as those whose careers and teachings I have studied at a distance, range from crooks who could be quickly dismissed to teachers who were brilliant but flawed, to those who, while still human, seemed to possess so much compassion and clarity of mind that they were nearly flawless examples of the benefits of spiritual practice. This last group is of obvious interest, and these are surely the people one hopes to meet, but the middle group can be helpful as well. Some teachers about whom depressing stories are told—men and women whose indiscretions may seem to discredit the very concept of spiritual authority—are, in fact, talented contemplatives. Many of these people get corrupted by the power and opportunities that come from inspiring devotion in others. Some may begin to believe the myths that grow up around them, and some are guilty of ludicrous exaggerations of their own spiritual and historical significance. Caveat emptor. Of course, there can be clear indications that a teacher is not worth paying attention to. A history as a fabulist or a con artist should be considered fatal; thus, the spiritual opinions of Joseph Smith, Gurdjieff, and L. Ron Hubbard can be safely ignored. A fetish for numbers is also an ominous sign. Math is magical, but math approached like magic is just superstition—and numerology is where the intellect goes to die. Prophecy is also a very strong indication of chicanery or madness on the part of a teacher, and of stupidity among his students. One can extrapolate from scientific data or technological trends (climate models, Moore’s law), but most detailed predictions about the future lead to embarrassment right on schedule. Anyone who can confidently tell you what the world will be like in 2027 is delusional. The channeling of invisible entities, whether broadcast from beyond the grave or from another galaxy, should provoke only laughter. J. Z. Knight, who has long claimed to be the mouthpiece for a 35,000-year-old entity named Ramtha, is the ultimate example of how you don’t want your teacher to sound. And any suggestion that a guru has influenced world events through magic should also put an end to the conversation. Sri Aurobindo and his partner, known as “the Mother,” apparently claimed to have decided the outcome of World War II with their psychic powers.9 (In that case, one wonders why they weren’t held morally responsible for not having ended it sooner.) Yet another reason to ignore Aurobindo’s long, unreadable books. Generally speaking, you should head for the door at any sign of deception on the part of a teacher. Sage advice. I like the bit about ending WW2
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sam Harris on choosing a guru :-)
On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: those who, while still human, seemed to possess so much compassion and clarity of mind that they were nearly flawless examples of the benefits of spiritual practice Name them please. *Do they have Google Search where you live? Everyone by now who has read anything about Sam Harris knows that his teacher was Dilgo Khyentse, (1910 – 1991), the famous Tibetan Buddhist.* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilgo_Khyentse
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sam Harris on choosing a guru :-)
On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 10:19 AM, salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: Sage advice. I like the bit about ending WW2 but I always thought it was GuruDev who did that with a yagya? *Everyone knows that Tibetan Buddhists perform yagyas and numerous other rites and ceremonies every single day dedicated to promoting world peace. You sound prejudiced against Hindus. Go figure.* I always thought it was a shame that the TMO have obviously forgotten the words as super powers like that would come in mighty handy in these dark days. Doesn't stop them screwing money out of the faithful so they can allegedly keep trying I notice. Non sequitur. I know you left it all deliberately unsaid and it was probably much more effective for that, but I'm enjoying the quotes and one day, when I'm not so busy, will sit down and give it a considered read.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sam Harris on choosing a guru :-)
I know you left it all deliberately unsaid and it was probably much more effective for that, but I'm enjoying the quotes and one day, when I'm not so busy, will sit down and give it a considered read. On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 10:51 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb wrote: No problemo. I thought it was a worthwhile read (and blessedly short!), and I think that there is much meat for discussion in the book. But if no one feels similarly, I'll just post occasional quotes here myself as drive-bys, to see if they get a reaction. Just did that with one of his quotes on mindfulness practice that I resonated with. I do admit to LOL-ing over occasional lines like numerology is where the intellect goes to die and Prophecy is also a very strong indication of chicanery or madness on the part of a teacher, and of stupidity among his students. Wish I'd said that first. :-) *We are still LOL-ing at your Rama levitation claims - we're probably not ready for Rama's Surfing the Himalayas that you helped write. Go figure.*
