[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Feb 24, 2008, at 11:04 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: Reports of results on sidhis are mostly the kind of results that a developed imagination can cook up, especially in the fluid and generative meditation state. Independent research on what type of people are attracted to TM would seem to support this assertion. TMers, probably due to the type of people who tend to be attracted to that type of meditation, tend to have episodes of absorbed and 'self-altering' attention that are sustained by imaginative and 'enactive' representations (Tellegen, 1977, p. 2) and a tendency to be 'imaginatively enthralled by inner creations,' 'charmed by the works of the imagination'. (Smith, 1978) Very interesting Vaj, are these studies online? And are 30 year old stides with no recent corroborative citations worth considering? If this is a common thread for TMers, you would expect dozens of replications since 1977 Lawson
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Angela Mailander [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I absolutely hated witnessing deep sleep when it first started to happen to me, and I hated it for years. I wanted the restfulness of oblivion back. Well, it didn't come back exactly, but it somehow gradually turned into the ocean of silence and bliss they advertise in the tradition. I love it now and can totally see not minding at all to remain in that state for eternities. dreams come, but when they do, they're clear and interesting. Witnessing changed over the years, but to describe it would take some doing, so not this minute, but I'm very interested in other people's experiences. I tend to not pay very much attention to these sleep witnessing phenomena, for a very simple reason -- they can be *learned*, by non-meditators, fairly easily. Read up on lucid dreaming. One can, by practicing very simple techniques, remain awake during one's dreams, and easily begin to direct them, in the same sense that a director would stage a scene in a movie. And, having done that, there is a natural transition in which the sense of being awake crosses over into deep sleep as well, and one witnesses that as easily as one does one's dreams. So this is NOT a phenomenon associated solely with meditation. And the interpretation of it in the worlds of meditation is NOT the only way of interpreting its meaning or value.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Angela Mailander mailander111@ wrote: I absolutely hated witnessing deep sleep when it first started to happen to me, and I hated it for years. I wanted the restfulness of oblivion back. Well, it didn't come back exactly, but it somehow gradually turned into the ocean of silence and bliss they advertise in the tradition. I love it now and can totally see not minding at all to remain in that state for eternities. dreams come, but when they do, they're clear and interesting. Witnessing changed over the years, but to describe it would take some doing, so not this minute, but I'm very interested in other people's experiences. I tend to not pay very much attention to these sleep witnessing phenomena, for a very simple reason -- they can be *learned*, by non-meditators, fairly easily. Read up on lucid dreaming. One can, by practicing very simple techniques, remain awake during one's dreams, and easily begin to direct them, in the same sense that a director would stage a scene in a movie. And, having done that, there is a natural transition in which the sense of being awake crosses over into deep sleep as well, and one witnesses that as easily as one does one's dreams. So this is NOT a phenomenon associated solely with meditation. And the interpretation of it in the worlds of meditation is NOT the only way of interpreting its meaning or value. By the way, forestalling any response that suggests that these two phenomena are not the same, I have experienced witnessing in both contexts, and as far as I can tell, there is no difference at all. I can easily see how what meditators have been trained to interpret as Self doing the witnessing being just as easily being interpreted with simply another aspect of self doing the witnessing, and that both have equal validity. I have had long discussions with many people who were interested in lucid dreaming, but had *never* practiced or had been interested in meditation or the Eastern concept of enlight- enment or who conceived of a Self that is different than self. Their experiences with this phenomenon of witnessing dreams and deep sleep are -- as far as I can tell -- the *same* as TMers'/meditators' descriptions, just interpreted differently. I'm not trying to pooh-pooh the experience itself -- it's kinda neat. I'm just pointing out the same thing that Curtis often does, that the same experience may be *interpreted* in many ways. Thus meditators who have become convinced of the validity of the self/Self model and of the possibility of enlightenment can *interpret* their experiences of witnessing dreams and deep sleep according to that model. Those who have no background in that model and/or don't believe in it can experience the very same witnessing of dreams and deep sleep and *interpret* it completely differently, as having nothing what- soever to do with sense of Self growing or with the dawning of enlightenment. Same experience, very different interpretations.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
On Feb 24, 2008, at 6:00 PM, cardemaister wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The only thing is Card, saMyama in the Kashmir Shaivite system of
meditation has a different meaning than in the YS/yoga-darshana.
I
believe the last acharya of that tradition, Sw. Lakshman Joo
explains
this in his commentary on the SS.
Is it perhaps any one of these mentioned by Monier-Williams:
saMyama m. holding together , restraint , control , (esp.) control
of the senses , self-control Mn. MBh. c. ; tying up (the hair)
Sa1h. ; binding , fettering VarBr2S. ; closing (of the eyes)
Ma1rkP. ; concentration of mind (comprising the performance of
Dha1ran2a1 , Dhya1na , and Sama1dhi , or the last three stages in
Yoga) Yogas. Sarvad. ; effort , exertion (%{A4} , with great
difficulty ') MBh. ; suppression i.e. destruction (of the world)
Pur. ; N. of a son of Dhu1mra7ksha (and father of Kr2is3a7s3va)
BhP. ; %{-dhana} mfn. rich in self-restraint MBh. ; %{-puNya-tIrtha}
mfn. having restraint for a holy place of pilgrimage MBh. ; %{-vat}
mfn. self-controlled , parsimonious , economical Katha1s. ; %{-
mAgni} m. the fire of abstinence Bhag. ; %{-mA7mbhas} n. the flood
of water at the end of the world BhP.
None of the above. Most of the technical terms of the Trika/Kashmir
Shaivism etc. will not be found in standard dictionaries.
However you may find them in a Tantrikabhidanakosha such as found
here. I haven't received mine yet, but from the excerpt, it appears
it will have Trika and other tantric terms.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
I agree completely. Witnessing deep sleep and lucid dreaming are both natural phenomena and they can both be interpreted in a number of different ways. According to the official TM line, higher states of consciousness develop naturally without meditation, but, allegedly, not as fast and not in enough people to make a difference to the society at large. So it should not be too surprising that there are some descriptions of higher states of consciousness that have almost certainly not been influenced by any Hindu take on the situation. William Blake is the clearest of them in Western literature, offering lucid (once you learn his language) descriptions of how knowledge is different in each of the following: the state of ignorance (single vision in Blake), CC (two-fold vision), GC (three-fold vision) and UC (four-fold vision). The interesting thing is that these descriptions tally with what the TMO puts out about these states also. In both cases, the interpretation of the experience in every state but ignorance (single vision) is essentially religious in nature. Eckhart describes the same states in 14th century Germany, and the medieval mystic Jan van Ruysbroeck in Holland does also--in all cases the epistemologies in the different states are essentially the same and in all cases the interpretation is essentially religious. If you take these descriptions as your basis for comparison, you can trace them in various writers who do not specifically mention states of consciousness as such but whose work shows their development. Emily Dickinson is a good example. She starts out writing pretty conventional Sunday School kinds of lyrics. Then, all of a sudden, she writes a bunch of lyrics describing TC. These give way to a lot (I mean a lot) of poems that describe witnessing. Then there ensues a period of writing in which the witness and the one being witnessed get increasingly confused and change places, a situation which gradually resolves itself into a very brief period of GC and then quickly moves into UC at the end of her career. In another post I've suggested that you can see the development of consciousness in the history of literature in the West. No significant mention of TC in the 18th century. Then, all kinds of TC and transcendentalism in the 19th. A lot of CC in the 20th, which makes it look unspiritual since the thing witnessed is the state of ignorance. All of the above, it seems to me, is reason enough to take states of consciousness seriously and to investigate further. a --- TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Angela Mailander mailander111@ wrote: I absolutely hated witnessing deep sleep when it first started to happen to me, and I hated it for years. I wanted the restfulness of oblivion back. Well, it didn't come back exactly, but it somehow gradually turned into the ocean of silence and bliss they advertise in the tradition. I love it now and can totally see not minding at all to remain in that state for eternities. dreams come, but when they do, they're clear and interesting. Witnessing changed over the years, but to describe it would take some doing, so not this minute, but I'm very interested in other people's experiences. I tend to not pay very much attention to these sleep witnessing phenomena, for a very simple reason -- they can be *learned*, by non-meditators, fairly easily. Read up on lucid dreaming. One can, by practicing very simple techniques, remain awake during one's dreams, and easily begin to direct them, in the same sense that a director would stage a scene in a movie. And, having done that, there is a natural transition in which the sense of being awake crosses over into deep sleep as well, and one witnesses that as easily as one does one's dreams. So this is NOT a phenomenon associated solely with meditation. And the interpretation of it in the worlds of meditation is NOT the only way of interpreting its meaning or value. By the way, forestalling any response that suggests that these two phenomena are not the same, I have experienced witnessing in both contexts, and as far as I can tell, there is no difference at all. I can easily see how what meditators have been trained to interpret as Self doing the witnessing being just as easily being interpreted with simply another aspect of self doing the witnessing, and that both have equal validity. I have had long discussions with many people who were interested in lucid dreaming, but had *never* practiced or had been interested in meditation or the Eastern concept of enlight- enment or who conceived of a Self that is different than self. Their experiences with this phenomenon of witnessing dreams and deep sleep are -- as far as I can tell -- the *same* as
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ruthsimplicity@ wrote: I know everything is linked when on a warm day and I lay down on the grass and smell the warm earth. Didn't you forget a Karen Capenter song going on in the background? I hear Karen's voice: Why do the birds go on singing? Why do the stars glow above? Don't they know it's the end of the world? And a fire ant bites my belly and I get up and go in the house to make supper.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
Hi Turq, THANKS FOR YOUR THOUGHTFUL RESPONSE you have made some very good points here perhaps I'm a poor communicator via email posts; that's why i would rather talk via phone but, I am not saying that Amma's teachings are now the highest for me and I tried to point out the FREEDOM I feel with AMMA. what i'm trying to say, is that beyond the TM M O DOGMA, there is a vast spiritual literature : Ramana Maharshi( and his vast lineage ), Nisargadatta, Amma's Awaken Children 9 vols( but especially vol 7 ), Eckhart Tolle, Byron Katie, Adyashanti, Francis Lucille, etc all of which seem, to me, to present a CONSISTENT Essential Core Teaching about the nature of mind, thoughts, ego( not just egotistical, but more basic ) and realization of Self and this, also as far as I can tell, supposedly is consistent with Vedanta-Advaita, Yoga Vasishta, Shankara, But, MMY interpretation of all of this was somewhat different. I am no scholar, nor am I in some state of enlightenment. So I simply have to go by my feelings and some insighteful experiences here and there. And now I'm simply grateful to be free to study these teachings and chose my spiritual practices with this feeling of freedom; which I guess I expressed poorly. And I do sincerely wish everyone the best of experiences and life. And I do acknowledge that a small percentage of all TMers do have amazing experiences; I just don't always agree with their interpretations especially that all you have to do is persevere and stick with TM, Siddhis, etc. Om Shanti, amarnath --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer rick@ wrote: On Behalf Of You are not your experiences is the ultimate Truth that the greatest Mahatmas and greatest teachings tell us. This is contrary to what MMY was teaching us. So, why should I have envy for something( Bliss ) that I have already experienced many times and know in my heart that that can be an obstacle to what I really what to know is : Who am I? Good question. And yet, you obviously do, anatol. I'm sorry, but your posturing in recent posts strikes me as almost PURE envy, and nothing more than the standard TM is the highest teaching and thus I as a TMer am 'the highest' too bull- shit, with a search-and-replace having been done to put Amma's name and teaching in the place of TM. BORING, and the *first* posting I've ever seen on FFL from an Amma devotee that gives me pause about her. Given that Rick and others have been FAR more balanced, I suspect that the problem lies in YOU and not in Amma. As far as I can tell, you brought that This teaching *has* to be 'the highest' because *I* am involved with it 'tude along with you when you left the TMO. Rick and others were smarter, and left it in the shitpile it came from. snip to the bottom line, as expressed by Rick I'm just playing devil's advocate here. Judging from the fruits of 30+ years of TM-sidhis practice, it seems like most people have been wasting a lot of time with them. I think I did. But some have thrived. Steve seems like one of those. This is the thing I have been exploring in the Past life experience and how it relates to practice in this life thread, that a few have contributed excellent posts to. I don't think that one can say ANYTHING about the relative effectiveness of ANY teacher's techniques or benefits based on anecdotal evidence. Some people had neat experiences with the TM siddhis as Steve did; others felt nothing much. Similarly, based on the Amma followers I have talked to, some felt some benefit from Amma's hugs and teachings, and others felt absolutely nothing. IT DOESN'T DEPEND ON THE TEACHER, IMO. It depends on the seeker, his or her experiences in the past (how *far* past depends on whether you believe in reincarnation or not), his or her pre-learning expectations (and thus tendency to moodmake to make those expectations come true), and many other factors. Bottom line is that, IF we were to judge based on the anecdotal subjective experiences of a wide range of the students of spiritual teachers (not just a few cherry-picked students), not ONE of them produces consistent results for everyone. NOT ONE. This suggests to me that the wisest 'tude that one could have about spiritual teachers and their teachings is a willingness to try them out without too many expectations, and a similar willingness to move on and try something else if their teach- ings don't find a resonance with you or deliver as you were told they would. As a corollary 'tude, I might recommend trying not to become a proselytute for the teacher with whom you DO find some resonance. Your good exper- iences with that teacher probably have more to do with you than they do the teacher.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, amarnath [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Turq, THANKS FOR YOUR THOUGHTFUL RESPONSE you have made some very good points here perhaps I'm a poor communicator via email posts; that's why i would rather talk via phone but, I am not saying that Amma's teachings are now the highest for me and I tried to point out the FREEDOM I feel with AMMA. As has been pointed out to me, I could very well have read something into your response that wasn't there. If so, I most humbly apologize. what i'm trying to say, is that beyond the TM M O DOGMA, there is a vast spiritual literature : Tell me about it. Almost all of which we would have -- at one point or another -- have been thrown out of the TM movement for admitting to have read. (I remember the person who was thrown out of the L.A. TM Center for good for admitting to having read Carlos Castanda, by a bunch of TM teachers who *all* had all of the Carlos Castaneda books on their bookshelves; I know because I'd seen them there when visiting their houses. Hypocrites!) Ramana Maharshi( and his vast lineage ), Nisargadatta, Amma's Awaken Children 9 vols( but especially vol 7 ), Eckhart Tolle, Byron Katie, Adyashanti, Francis Lucille, etc all of which seem, to me, to present a CONSISTENT Essential Core Teaching about the nature of mind, thoughts, ego( not just egotistical, but more basic ) and realization of Self and this, also as far as I can tell, supposedly is consistent with Vedanta-Advaita, Yoga Vasishta, Shankara, I'm not at all concerned with whether a doctrine/ dogma is consistent with Maharishi's. I no longer value very much of Maharishi's dogma. But, MMY interpretation of all of this was somewhat different. I am no scholar, nor am I in some state of enlightenment. So I simply have to go by my feelings and some insighteful experiences here and there. Can't go wrong with that. And now I'm simply grateful to be free to study these teachings and chose my spiritual practices with this feeling of freedom; which I guess I expressed poorly. Or that I read something into that wasn't there. The amazing thing is, we were *always* free to study these other teachings, had we just stood up to the spiritual bullies who tried to tell us we couldn't. And I do sincerely wish everyone the best of experiences and life. And I do acknowledge that a small percentage of all TMers do have amazing experiences; I just don't always agree with their interpretations especially that all you have to do is persevere and stick with TM, Siddhis, etc. Nor do I. But I'm the first to admit that they could be right and I could be wrong. The experiences themselves can't be countered or objected to; they are what they are. The *interpretations* of those experiences are IMO up for grabs. For example, I've heard many a TMer describe to me a visual experience that they coorelate with their experiences of feeling high and/or witnes- sing -- a sense that there is a kind of gray haze overlaying their vision. They have interpreted this as the beginnings of GC, or as seeing finer levels of reality. In other traditions that I tend to believe in more than the TM tradition, that perception is a clear indicator that the person's attention is stuck in one of the lower astral planes. Seeing this phenomenon is actually one of the main symptoms or descriptors of that particular astral plane. The appearance of the phenomenon is an indicator -- in their system of belief -- that the meditator is in trouble. So go figure. Same experience, but completely dif- ferent interpretations of what it means or whether it has a positive value. Either could be correct. I don't pretend to know for sure, although I may favor one interpretation over the other.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington = Maharishi's dogma
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not at all concerned with whether a doctrine/ dogma is consistent with Maharishi's. I no longer value very much of Maharishi's dogma. SAME here ! I guess the other point I was trying to make is that, for me it seems, there is all this vast spiritual literature that does seem to have some basic consistencies which differ from MMY's dogma. I don't call these other teachings different dogmas; since it seems their essence is what some call the Eternal Universal Spiritual Principles (or Sanatana Dharma) I'm refering to the essence, not necessarily the details which can always slip into the dogma side. Perhaps, if I read these before, maybe I would not be able to recognize it. And I'm not saying all of us have to agree on this. Your point about the same experience being interpreted differently due to different teachings is well made. Om, amarnath
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington = Maharishi's dogma
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, amarnath [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: I'm not at all concerned with whether a doctrine/ dogma is consistent with Maharishi's. I no longer value very much of Maharishi's dogma. SAME here ! I guess the other point I was trying to make is that, for me it seems, there is all this vast spiritual literature that does seem to have some basic consistencies which differ from MMY's dogma. Indeed. Especially in terms of behavior during those all-important hours one spends *outside* of meditation. Maharishi pooh-poohs or actually rags on the notion of performing good works, whereas they are the foundation of many other spiritual traditions (including Guru Dev's, as evidenced by a good quote that do.rflex reposted here in FFL post #165717). Also missing in action are any positive comments from MMY on the value of mindfulness, of becoming aware of low or unproductive states of attention and shifting one's focus back to higher or more productive states of attention. Those two practices *alone* have probably brought about more positive transformations in my life in the time since I left the TM movement than any of the meditations I did while part of it. Plus there are the parts of Maharishi's dogma that seem downright wrong to me -- his sup- port for the caste system, his attitudes about the role of women in spirituality, his jealous inability to allow his followers to think for themselves or to see other spiritual teachers. I don't call these other teachings different dogmas; since it seems their essence is what some call the Eternal Universal Spiritual Principles (or Sanatana Dharma) I'm refering to the essence, not necessarily the details which can always slip into the dogma side. Perhaps, if I read these before, maybe I would not be able to recognize it. And I'm not saying all of us have to agree on this. Your point about the same experience being interpreted differently due to different teachings is well made. I think it's a point that is lost on TB TMers sometimes, because they have been carefully taught for so many years that any deviation from Maharishi's dogma is WRONG, DAMNIT. And not only is it WRONG, it's DANGEROUS to even contemplate. Doing so means that you have become tainted or polluted somehow, and that you are a threat or a danger to those who follow the true highest path. So yeah...are there some areas in which I think that Maharishi's approach to spiritual teaching ...uh...sucks dead dogs? You betcha. In the pantheon of the world's spiritual teachers, I consider Maharishi a rank amateur. But, at the same time, I Just Don't Know For Sure. He might be right where all these other teachers over the centuries whom he contradicts have been wrong. But do I honestly think that's the case? No way.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington = Bliss + Am I my experiences?
Nice quotes, Vaj, thanks for posting. the following is from my intellectual understanding: The advaitic self-inquiry approach, which I have heard from Mooji, would be( roughly ) to realize that since I see/feel/experience the Bliss, I cannot be it. the inquiry would be Who sees/feels/experiences the Bliss? This is before full Awakening, during the neti-neti phase. During this phase, it's helpful to realize that: 'I' am not my experiences. and ask Who is the experiencer? After full Awakening, in this phase, There is nothing but Self ! ( which is Awareness, Bliss, God, Love, whatever ). In this ?final? phase, I am also my experiences. But 'I' and 'me' are no longer personal supposedly and neither is the Bliss ( it's of a different impersonal quality now). Some who are having experiences may dispute the latter. I don't know at this point. This is my 2cents understanding so far. Santi, amarnath --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 24, 2008, at 12:40 AM, Rick Archer wrote: I agree with Amarnath that many people in the movement seem very egotistical. Back on my 6-month course, most of the great experience guys had huge egos, and were always competing with each other in terms of whose experience was flashiest. Here's that quote again :-). You hit that one right on the head: Bliss Whenever you consider there is bliss, and the objective conditions for bliss occur, if you fall under the control of that by becoming arrogant or conceited, then that will fester as an obstruction to the spiritual path. Rather than thinking about what has caused this happiness, which most probably is the accumulation of merit or the removal of obscurations, as soon as the bliss occurs, you think, ''That's my nature. Based on that, you become arrogant or lazy, thinking, Well, I've accomplished it. This is the greatest obstacle to the spiritual path. This is what creates the realms of deva-gods. Oftentimes it is said that people can handle only a little bit of felicity, but they can handle a lot of adversity. This is because happiness on the spiritual path is the most difficult thing to handle. Once it arises, that's where the path stops. This does not mean that it is necessary to give it all up. Giving up happiness is not the practice. The main point is not to become mesmerized by happiness as the end result. You realize that, Ah, now, the good quality of this is that I am fortunate, and this is another result of the great fortune of the path and the result of the accumulation of merit and wholesome deeds. Even more than ever, I will carry on with the work at hand to achieve liberation from cyclic existence. So with more diligence and more courage, you continue listening to teachings, contemplating, meditating, and appreciating this precious human rebirth. --from Meditation, Transformation, and Dream Yoga http://www.snowlionpub.com/search.php?isbn=METRDR by Venerable Gyatrul Rinpoche, translated by Sangye Khandro and B. Alan Wallace
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington = M's dogma = One way for all is Dangerous
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... I think it's a point that is lost on TB TMers sometimes, because they have been carefully taught for so many years that any deviation from Maharishi's dogma is WRONG, DAMNIT. And not only is it WRONG, it's DANGEROUS to even contemplate. Doing so means that you have become tainted or polluted somehow, and that you are a threat or a danger to those who follow the true highest path. ... Amma says: One way for all is Dangerous! Just like taking the wrong medicine. ...But, at the same time, I Just Don't Know For Sure. He might be right where all these other teachers over the centuries whom he contradicts have been wrong. my feeling is that the essence of what these teachers were/are teaching is right and that there are what I call Eternal Universal Spiritual Principles which come from the Self and express themselves even in current teachers like Tolle, Katie, Stuart Schwartz, Mooji, Adyashanti, Francis Lucille, and many others. when I listen carefully, the essence of these teachings are the SAME presented in slightly different dress and also consistent with Ramana Maharshi, Papji, Robert Adams, Nisargadatta, Buddha, Christ, etc this is my POV, thanks for listening. ~amarnath
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington = Maharishi's dogma
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, amarnath [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: I'm not at all concerned with whether a doctrine/ dogma is consistent with Maharishi's. I no longer value very much of Maharishi's dogma. SAME here ! I guess the other point I was trying to make is that, for me it seems, there is all this vast spiritual literature that does seem to have some basic consistencies which differ from MMY's dogma. I don't call these other teachings different dogmas; since it seems their essence is what some call the Eternal Universal Spiritual Principles (or Sanatana Dharma) I think you need to look up the meaning of the word 'dogma'. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dogma Just because ideas are from a more widely embraced spiritual orthodoxy doesn't mean those ideas aren't dogma.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington = Maharishi's dogma
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, amarnath [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess the other point I was trying to make is that, for me it seems, there is all this vast spiritual literature that does seem to have some basic consistencies which differ from MMY's dogma. Om, amarnath Oh please, just get a hug. That's your dogma.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington = Maharishi's dogma
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, amarnath anatol_zinc@ wrote: I guess the other point I was trying to make is that, for me it seems, there is all this vast spiritual literature that does seem to have some basic consistencies which differ from MMY's dogma. Om, amarnath Oh please, just get a hug. That's your dogma. I would translate that amarnath as this vast spiritual pile of crap. Sorry.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Angela Mailander [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've noticed the same thing whenever I've worked with the dying. I've also noticed that sometimes there is amazing grace and the dying person drops being the person and becomes radiant loving and light. Have you seen that? My mother was the queen bitch from hell, and caring for her during her last eight years of life (she was utterly paralyzed) was maha tapas for me but well worth it in the end as she dropped her personhood and became pure love. I've seen people die in all kinds of ways, and in some cases there is amazing grace. As the body is dropping away, sometimes there is a dropping away of the ego as well (for want of a better word). So often, there was an atmosphere charged with celestial energy and light, and when I'd be near a dying person it would feel as if I'd entered the most holy place. But not always... The most inspiring thing was that often deeply moving reconciliations would happen among family members, and painful things could finally be resolved. How wonderful to hear about your mother. I nursed my mother through her dying process (she chose to stop eating) and it was one of the most difficult and yet rewarding things I've ever done. There was a lot of surrender happening for her and she was able, after a lifetime of tight self-controls and an inability to depend on others, to give in and be totally cared for.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 steve.sundur@ wrote: ruthsimplicity@ wrote: I know everything is linked when on a warm day and I lay down on the grass and smell the warm earth. Didn't you forget a Karen Capenter song going on in the background? I hear Karen's voice: Why do the birds go on singing? Why do the stars glow above? Don't they know it's the end of the world? Are you sure that wasn't Herman's Hermits And a fire ant bites my belly and I get up and go in the house to make supper. I think you have the makings of a good haiku
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, abutilon108 abutilon108@ wrote: snip I did want to say, however, that the term group delusion has come up in my mind about the TMO. I don't think it's any different, though, than the shared delusions or illusions people may have as part of a religion or even a culture. I do think our experiences can be colored, or even created, out of a set of expectations and desires which are reinforced in a group. I think it's interesting that MMY died, and we started talking about the powerful effect he had on people, at the same time that a very similar phenomenon seems to be occurring in the general population with Barack Obama. Seems like anytime someone becomes a vortex of influence, they are the focal point of a web created in group consciousness, as it were.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
On Feb 25, 2008, at 6:35 PM, abutilon108 wrote: My mother was the queen bitch from hell, and caring for her during her last eight years of life (she was utterly paralyzed) was maha tapas for me but well worth it in the end as she dropped her personhood and became pure love. I've seen people die in all kinds of ways Got to be one of the more bizarre conversations on FFL, and that's saying something. Sal
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington = Bliss + Am I
Amarnath writes snipped: After full Awakening, in this phase, There is nothing but Self ! ( which is Awareness, Bliss, God, Love, whatever ). In this ?final? phase, I am also my experiences. But 'I' and 'me' are no longer personal supposedly and neither is the Bliss ( it's of a different impersonal quality now). Some who are having experiences may dispute the latter. I don't know at this point. TomT: And then after that it goes back to being very personal and highly intimate as the next phase of some inward and outward flux. The reason it is now personal again is that the I/me are everywhere I look and everything that falls in my attention. I am really all of creation. My point value is all creation and I can know through the point value and through the totality simultaneously. It has been this way a number of years and at this point it has not become impersonal again but they may be a possibility although I can not see how. Tom
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you sure that wasn't Herman's Hermits When I think Herman's Hermits, I think: This door swings both ways It's marked 'In' and 'Out' Some days you'll want to cry And some days you will shout. . . Which grosses me out in a Borat kind of way. And a fire ant bites my belly and I get up and go in the house to make supper. I think you have the makings of a good haiku Karen softly sings the ants tickle my belly Time for supper ruth. Nah.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
Yes, yes, Flowering Maple (why did you choose this name, Abutilon?), caring for a dying loved one is a great gift. --- abutilon108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Angela Mailander [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've noticed the same thing whenever I've worked with the dying. I've also noticed that sometimes there is amazing grace and the dying person drops being the person and becomes radiant loving and light. Have you seen that? My mother was the queen bitch from hell, and caring for her during her last eight years of life (she was utterly paralyzed) was maha tapas for me but well worth it in the end as she dropped her personhood and became pure love. I've seen people die in all kinds of ways, and in some cases there is amazing grace. As the body is dropping away, sometimes there is a dropping away of the ego as well (for want of a better word). So often, there was an atmosphere charged with celestial energy and light, and when I'd be near a dying person it would feel as if I'd entered the most holy place. But not always... The most inspiring thing was that often deeply moving reconciliations would happen among family members, and painful things could finally be resolved. How wonderful to hear about your mother. I nursed my mother through her dying process (she chose to stop eating) and it was one of the most difficult and yet rewarding things I've ever done. There was a lot of surrender happening for her and she was able, after a lifetime of tight self-controls and an inability to depend on others, to give in and be totally cared for. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
No reverse gear needed (Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington)
I'm not cynical about the siddhis. I'm just being honest about my lack of experience with them. As I said, I may very well have been doing them wrong. Or maybe my mind wasn't settled enough or my transcendence clear enough to produce the predicted result. Or maybe it's a different strokes for different folks kind of thing, and siddhis practice wasn't as relevant for me as it is for Steve. The entrance to become acquainted with the topic seems to have been barred due to the interplay of your impatience and too high expectations. I have to confess that I also had to brawl around with pretension against reality. But I soon found out that Maharishi was a teacher of basic principles, not interpreting too much his own words. It was a great delineation and we were bound to interprete. This was the great luck for all opinion leaders to get the big flock of sheeps aligned to their egos. A great tragedy. I agree with Amarnath that many people in the movement seem very egotistical. That is almost the only truth, which I can find in her teachings. The rest is an abstruse conglomeration of spiritual leisures, something for the dinosaurs generation of salvation seekers and eternally out-dated ones. Back on my 6-month course, most of the great experience guys had huge egos, and were always competing with each other in terms of whose experience was flashiest. Most of them have since left the movement. The folks at the core of today's movement seem to be cut from the same mold, and Maharishi seems to have done everything possible to inflate their egos. If pride goeth before a fall, their fates over the next several years should be interesting to watch. Those who left the movement and did not take any initiative from outside were the intrinsic selfish persons, who ran for the next best ravisher, almost living the attitude of a spiritual employee. Exactly this Maharishi bemoaned in the year 2000 on Guru Purnima, addressing his twinges mainly to the American movement as being the worst example. Anyway, I think Steve's accounts were fascinating, and he seems like a humble guy. His experiences don't seem to have bloated his ego. Seems so. Question for Amarnath: if the koshas, or sheaths, are concentric, with bliss being the innermost, it seems to me that evolution involves piercing them sequentially. But stop thinking in reverse manner. There is no piercing of sheaths, as if having to burst soap-bubbles until you reach the ultimate goal. This is exactly putting the whole idea on its head and shows that Amarnath is a nice lady from the corner, but has not the slightest idea of what she talks about. And what is even more shameful is that you obviously have ceased to use your brain, becaus of the egoistic and vain idea, such being able to avoid mistakes. What an infatuation ! I guess you could get hung up on any one of them, and just as the ring became more powerful the closer Frodo got to the Crack of Doom, maybe each successive sheath has greater power to ensnare the ego. This only one can talk who never had the innocent experience of transcedning and its releaving influence. Form there on there was no necessity to speak in terms of avoiding but only of filling up. That was the greatness of Maharishi to have turned around these values radically. But I've seen many people go through what Steve is going through prior to what looks to me like a genuine and permanent spiritual awakening: lots of bliss, lots of crying as the knots of the heart loosen, lots of love and gratitude. To me, these are symptoms of liberation, not of delusion. So I'd cut Steve some slack. BTW, Steve. Your greatest bit of acting was in All of Me when the bowl containing Lily Tomlin's soul fell out the window, and hit you on the street below, and her soul and yours began contending for control of your body. Laughed my guts out. Thanks for that. I wish you were hosting the Oscars again tomorrow night instead of John Stewart.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Behalf Of amarnath You are not your experiences is the ultimate Truth that the greatest Mahatmas and greatest teachings tell us. This is contrary to what MMY was teaching us. So, why should I have envy for something( Bliss ) that I have already experienced many times and know in my heart that that can be an obstacle to what I really what to know is : Who am I? Good question. And yet, you obviously do, anatol. I'm sorry, but your posturing in recent posts strikes me as almost PURE envy, and nothing more than the standard TM is the highest teaching and thus I as a TMer am 'the highest' too bull- shit, with a search-and-replace having been done to put Amma's name and teaching in the place of TM. BORING, and the *first* posting I've ever seen on FFL from an Amma devotee that gives me pause about her. Given that Rick and others have been FAR more balanced, I suspect that the problem lies in YOU and not in Amma. As far as I can tell, you brought that This teaching *has* to be 'the highest' because *I* am involved with it 'tude along with you when you left the TMO. Rick and others were smarter, and left it in the shitpile it came from. snip to the bottom line, as expressed by Rick I'm just playing devil's advocate here. Judging from the fruits of 30+ years of TM-sidhis practice, it seems like most people have been wasting a lot of time with them. I think I did. But some have thrived. Steve seems like one of those. This is the thing I have been exploring in the Past life experience and how it relates to practice in this life thread, that a few have contributed excellent posts to. I don't think that one can say ANYTHING about the relative effectiveness of ANY teacher's techniques or benefits based on anecdotal evidence. Some people had neat experiences with the TM siddhis as Steve did; others felt nothing much. Similarly, based on the Amma followers I have talked to, some felt some benefit from Amma's hugs and teachings, and others felt absolutely nothing. IT DOESN'T DEPEND ON THE TEACHER, IMO. It depends on the seeker, his or her experiences in the past (how *far* past depends on whether you believe in reincarnation or not), his or her pre-learning expectations (and thus tendency to moodmake to make those expectations come true), and many other factors. Bottom line is that, IF we were to judge based on the anecdotal subjective experiences of a wide range of the students of spiritual teachers (not just a few cherry-picked students), not ONE of them produces consistent results for everyone. NOT ONE. This suggests to me that the wisest 'tude that one could have about spiritual teachers and their teachings is a willingness to try them out without too many expectations, and a similar willingness to move on and try something else if their teach- ings don't find a resonance with you or deliver as you were told they would. As a corollary 'tude, I might recommend trying not to become a proselytute for the teacher with whom you DO find some resonance. Your good exper- iences with that teacher probably have more to do with you than they do the teacher.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
Rick Archer wrote: BTW, Steve. Your greatest bit of acting was in All of Me when the bowl containing Lily Tomlin's soul fell out the window, and hit you on the street below, and her soul and yours began contending for control of your body. Laughed my guts out. Thanks for that. I wish you were hosting the Oscars again tomorrow night instead of John Stewart. woah, its THAT steve martin?? yah, i loved all of me my other favorites are Roxanne (as a Cyrano de Bergerac guy) and the old SNL Wild and Crazy Guys with Dan Akroyd
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of TurquoiseB Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 3:57 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington IT DOESN'T DEPEND ON THE TEACHER, IMO. I think it depends on both the teacher and the student. To put it in simple terms, a “C” student will get more from a “A” teacher than a “B” teacher. An “A” student might get more from a “C” teacher than a “C” student from an “A” teacher, etc. But having said that, I think there’s a birds of a feather thing going on, whether people are attracted to Jim Jones, the Southern Baptists, the Ku Klux Klan, Amma, Maharishi, etc. And those affiliations and affinities naturally change as students and teachers change. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.9/1295 - Release Date: 2/23/2008 9:35 PM
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Behalf Of TurquoiseB IT DOESN'T DEPEND ON THE TEACHER, IMO. I think it depends on both the teacher and the student. To put it in simple terms, a C student will get more from a A teacher than a B teacher. An A student might get more from a C teacher than a C student from an A teacher, etc. But having said that, I think there's a birds of a feather thing going on, whether people are attracted to Jim Jones, the Southern Baptists, the Ku Klux Klan, Amma, Maharishi, etc. And those affiliations and affinities naturally change as students and teachers change. Ok, what Rick said was better than what I said. Cancel the tagline of my previous rant and insert this one instead: IT DOESN'T DEPEND *ONLY* ON THE TEACHER, IMO. MAYBE. See? The surfing metaphor is improving my balance already. :-)
RE: No reverse gear needed (Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington)
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hagen J. Holtz Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 3:56 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: No reverse gear needed (Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington) I’m not cynical about the siddhis. I’m just being honest about my lack of experience with them. As I said, I may very well have been doing them wrong. Or maybe my mind wasn’t settled enough or my transcendence clear enough to produce the predicted result. Or maybe it’s a “different strokes for different folks” kind of thing, and siddhis practice wasn’t as relevant for me as it is for Steve. The entrance to become acquainted with the topic seems to have been barred due to the interplay of your impatience and too high expectations. I have to confess that I also had to brawl around with pretension against reality. But I soon found out that Maharishi was a teacher of basic principles, not interpreting too much his own words. It was a great delineation and we were bound to interprete. This was the great luck for all opinion leaders to get the big flock of sheeps aligned to their egos. A great tragedy. I’m not sure what you mean here Hagen, due to English not being your native language. Please restate the point if you don’t mind. I agree with Amarnath that many people in the movement seem very egotistical. That is almost the only truth, which I can find in her teachings. The rest is an abstruse conglomeration of spiritual leisures, something for the dinosaurs generation of salvation seekers and eternally out-dated ones. Whose teachings? Amma? Back on my 6-month course, most of the “great experience” guys had huge egos, and were always competing with each other in terms of whose experience was flashiest. Most of them have since left the movement. The folks at the core of today’s movement seem to be cut from the same mold, and Maharishi seems to have done everything possible to inflate their egos. If “pride goeth before a fall,” their fates over the next several years should be interesting to watch. Those who left the movement and did not take any initiative from outside were the intrinsic selfish persons, who ran for the next best ravisher, almost living the attitude of a spiritual employee. Exactly this Maharishi bemoaned in the year 2000 on Guru Purnima, addressing his twinges mainly to the American movement as being the worst example. This is too broad a generalization, and absolves the TMO/MMY of any blame. Question for Amarnath: if the koshas, or sheaths, are concentric, with bliss being the innermost, it seems to me that evolution involves piercing them sequentially. But stop thinking in reverse manner. There is no piercing of sheaths, as if having to burst soap-bubbles until you reach the ultimate goal. This is exactly putting the whole idea on its head and shows that Amarnath is a nice lady from the corner, but has not the slightest idea of what she talks about. Amarnath is a guy. And what is even more shameful is that you obviously have ceased to use your brain, becaus of the egoistic and vain idea, such being able to avoid mistakes. What an infatuation ! What idea are you referring to? I guess you could get hung up on any one of them, and just as the ring became more powerful the closer Frodo got to the Crack of Doom, maybe each successive sheath has greater power to ensnare the ego. This only one can talk who never had the innocent experience of transcedning and its releaving influence. Form there on there was no necessity to speak in terms of avoiding but only of filling up. That was the greatness of Maharishi to have turned around these values radically. I’ve had experiences of transcending from day one, and feel the constant presence of the Self in all circumstances. I’m just trying to account for the bizarre personalities we now see at the apex of the TMO. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.9/1295 - Release Date: 2/23/2008 9:35 PM
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of george_deforest Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 6:16 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington Rick Archer wrote: BTW, Steve. Your greatest bit of acting was in All of Me when the bowl containing Lily Tomlin's soul fell out the window, and hit you on the street below, and her soul and yours began contending for control of your body. Laughed my guts out. Thanks for that. I wish you were hosting the Oscars again tomorrow night instead of John Stewart. woah, its THAT steve martin?? yah, i loved all of me my other favorites are Roxanne (as a Cyrano de Bergerac guy) and the old SNL Wild and Crazy Guys with Dan Akroyd It’s not really that Steve Martin. I was just joking. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.9/1295 - Release Date: 2/23/2008 9:35 PM
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
In my experience: Bliss is stupid. Bliss is dumb. As the bondage goes in this TM path there is tremendous bliss. Overwhelming bliss that grows and grows and grows...and grows. Then the siddhis start, not flying or turning invisible, but that capacity to know and fully comprehend each point of manifest life to it fullest; from complete stop of boundaries to its most subtle, nearly infinite bliss of celestial life. Everything is linked and connected. Soma is the life that flows through all this subtlety. Huge personalities, Gods, inhabit here, filling all of creation, all attention. The bliss is never ending until a final discrimination is made from the infinite bliss of the most subtle, celestial, incredible life to THAT...and then there is no more. Then bliss is like a dead dog in the road! Bliss is the darshan of Brahman, but not Brahman. --- itsstevemartin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have had absolutely amazing experiences with the sidhis. I encourage you to return to the program. I will post more. When I see sometimes all the hookum I read about and the chaos I see sometimes associated with the movement I would find it easy to believe the negative. Here is the 3rd reading of my experiences of that respite. They would not let me talk about past experiences on the course. Only about what I got on the course. Where I am now is going beyond beneath thought and just sitting in awareness. I love it. I go to bed at 9:00pm and naturally wake up between 3 and 4 am. I walk my dog and then settle into a program that lasts from about 4 to 6:30am. I am at work at 7:30am. I absolutely love waking up in the morning and doing my long program. Here is a post o f my 3rd reading during my 6 week respite at MUM June/July 07. Joyce Carol Oates asks in her book, Middle Aged What is the meaning of life? What is the meaning of your life? Is there a difference? The meaning of my life is bliss, and I am, with help, steadily closing that difference. I am on the last of my 6 week respite here. I used to say meditations were almost, always pleasant, but now I say, they are almost, always blissful. Mostly the first set of sutras in the beginning, and now, the entire program is bliss becoming blissful. I sit in bliss, and time goes. In activity, I experience some bliss during the day, and by bedtime, it has become more. It has become blissful. I wake up in bliss. My program has changed in so many ways, but so has my knowledge. I did not know before I came here that: totality, the transcendent, wholeness, the unmanifest, Brahm, emptiness, nothingness, and your own nature are bliss. Now I know when I experience bliss, I am close to home, and home is where I need to be. I just follow the bliss. Follow the bliss. I am an expression of bliss. The whole thing is about the bliss, and the clearer my intellectual understanding becomes, the more effective my program becomes; that along with the power of group practice, good diet and rest. Good diet. I feel after eating this wonderful food at MUM, organic, fresh, beautifully prepared and seasoned, I now know what good food is; hats off to the chef. What wonderful food I have had here; what wonderful food, truly wonderful. Last Saturday it was a little cool, and the rain fell in buckets, torrents beating the Utopia Hall tin roof all morning, and I, wrapped in my cotton hooded parker, and over this, a soft cotton blanket pulled to my chin heated me to toast as I sat deep in program, deep in bliss. It was wonderful, wonderful. All I was missing were my footy pajamas, and my Teddy Bear. The experience was of innocence, and that is what has stood out most of all here in this place is your innocence. Like Winnie the Pooh in the Hundred Acer Forest, I see each Sidha going about their day in gentleness, and innocence. I watch in breathless wonder. This is an innocent place. This is a gentle place. A community becoming, innocence becoming. I can see it in your eyes. I can see it in your walk, your breath, your talk. I can see it in the eyes of those to whom you speak. My heart is a garden, and your words the rain. Jai Guru Dev Steve Martin --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Beautiful experiences Steve. I really appreciate your posting them, and am glad you joined us. Cool that that voice told you how to do the sutras right. I did them for about 25 years and never really had any results I always preferred just plain meditating but I've often thought that if I ever get to a place where I feel my state of consciousness has shifted radically, I might try them again. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.9/1294 - Release Date:
Who taught the siddhis to you ? (Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington)
I have off and on meditated my 20 minutes twice a day for many years. I quit the siddhis course before I was done way back in the 70s and walked away. I am sorry to say but my impression was WTF? This is bogus! Listen carefully to what I tell you know, it may be of great importance for you and your future: I was on the second TM-Sidh(h)i-Course ever held: Interlaken, Switzerland October 1976 until April 1977. There were abou 1,000 TM-teachers from all over the world. I belonged to the hazy transcenders, later on being rehabilitated as the real transcenders. We started with one sutra power of an elephant (hasti bala) and it was amzing to see how reluctantly Maharishi was leading us closer and closer to the topic. He just gave the instruction to meditate on this sutra or just put it in our mind and see, what would happen. This was the ritual after each daily session of reading the 9th and 10th mandala of Rg-Veda over weeks. So people started to report amazing things, even though nothing seemed to have happened in the group instead of. One envied the other about his revelations, but nothing was there at all, only extensive fantastic ideas starting to circulate in the group. And then the day came, where the horn got definitely blown: Initiatiations into the sutras took place, groups of teachers, did puja together and then one sutra after the other were given, I think without even allowance to write them down. And the instruction became precise: Turn back to the state of least excitation by just touching the sutra and then let go ! The hall, where I sat with the low-grade transcenders was suddenly filled with holy tension. It was, as if you from now on could hear a needle fall on the floor. My mind started to get blown up with bliss, bliss, which I had not been experiencing before in meditation, using the sutras as being told, and a tremendous upserge of power went along with it. We sat together for 90 !! minutes, not using the flying sutra yet. And at one corner someone started to breath in fast sequence, which also never happened during our usual meditation sessions before. It was exciting. A new dimension of body-perception as part of the meditation process seemed to have been initialized through it. People started to make strange noises like as if being shifted to a paradize garden with strange birds and othet animals. Not necessarily loudly but in a strange and unknown way permeating the halls of the mind. Then a second and a third person started to inhale and outhale in high repetition, like becoming hyper breathing. So it could not have been by chance, what happened. The first common attributes of this new phase of meditation started to solidify. Later on, and that was the pity due to influence of frustrated and frustrating people, that often people thought they have to produce effects during the sessions, which definitely disturbed the strong coherence and unification of the group you could feel physically. When the exaggeration became sometimes unbearable, people were taught to exercise samyama on soma pavamana in order to get down from their conniptions. But it was undoubtfully functioning, that was fact. I do not know, who taught the siddhis to you. I heard that Chandrakant and Rekha Jani, a couple from India, was acting a instructors for some while around Fairfield. When they taught two of my disciples at Gandhinagar how to use the flying sutra, something astonishing got detected by me by chance: I came to Gandhinagar in 1999 in oder to pick up Santosh Choudary and Dunjeebhai on their last day of the flying course section. Chandrakant put his hand on my shoulders and told me that my two followers obviously wanted to wait until they came home in order to show flying indications. They belonged to those who still did not move, while applying the flying sutra: kaya akasha yoh sambandha laghutula - relation between body and akasha, lightness of cotton fibre. The sutra was being divided into two parts reharding its application. The first part, as Sanstosh said, who´only got headache while applying the technique, seems to be matching, what I have learned. But the second part is deviating. He continued by telling that Chandrakant was instructing: Flying liken cotton. If situation had not been so critical, I could have been laughing: If a wind comes all my files will also fly from the table. What kind of nonsense this man was teaching you ! And I was becoming really angry. I instantaneously got aware of thousands of trustful learners thoughout the world, who must have been getting mislead with such a rubbish. I immediately corrected the instruction without asking, because I knew what would come from the small master, exactly what he told to me later on in boldfaced manner, saying that this was the modern version of the sutra and we don't go by all these interpretations of Patanjali. he obviously has never been troubling himself to read the
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 7:05 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington In my experience: Bliss is stupid. Bliss is dumb. As the bondage goes in this TM path there is tremendous bliss. Overwhelming bliss that grows and grows and grows...and grows. Then the siddhis start, not flying or turning invisible, but that capacity to know and fully comprehend each point of manifest life to it fullest; from complete stop of boundaries to its most subtle, nearly infinite bliss of celestial life. Everything is linked and connected. Soma is the life that flows through all this subtlety. Huge personalities, Gods, inhabit here, filling all of creation, all attention. The bliss is never ending until a final discrimination is made from the infinite bliss of the most subtle, celestial, incredible life to THAT...and then there is no more. Then bliss is like a dead dog in the road! Bliss is the darshan of Brahman, but not Brahman. Great description, and no implication that bliss is trapping you in some subtle delusion. It’s a stage, and a symptom of something good happening. Sure, changing experiences are not the changeless, but profound experiences can be a sign that the changeless is dawning in the awareness. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.9/1295 - Release Date: 2/23/2008 9:35 PM
RE: Who taught the siddhis to you ? (Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington)
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hagen J. Holtz Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 7:13 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Who taught the siddhis to you ? (Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington) Importance: High I went through all the breathing and noisemaking stages too, although eventually, at least at MIU, this was suppressed, which I think spoiled the spontaneity of what was going on. Later on, and that was the pity due to influence of frustrated and frustrating people, that often people thought they have to produce effects during the sessions, which definitely disturbed the strong coherence and unification of the group you could feel physically. When the exaggeration became sometimes unbearable, people were taught to exercise samyama on soma pavamana in order to get down from their conniptions. But it was undoubtfully functioning, that was fact. This point is unclear to me. I immediately corrected the instruction without asking, because I knew what would come from the small master, exactly what he told to me later on in boldfaced manner, saying that this was the modern version of the sutra and we don't go by all these interpretations of Patanjali. he obviously has never been troubling himself to read the holy scripture. Who is the small master you are referring to here? No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.9/1295 - Release Date: 2/23/2008 9:35 PM
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In my experience: Bliss is stupid. Bliss is dumb. I would agree only in the sense that IMO bliss is a feedback mechanism, and thus just a dumb instrument of measurement. To me, bliss is just feedback from the universe that you're doing something right, that at that moment you're in tune with the Tao. In other words, it's an indicator that you're following the right path -- for you, for now. But it should NOT be mistaken for the goal at the end of that path. Nor should it be taken as a sign that you should stop walking. As the bondage goes in this TM path there is tremendous bliss. Overwhelming bliss that grows and grows and grows...and grows. Then the siddhis start, not flying or turning invisible, but that capacity to know and fully comprehend each point of manifest life to it fullest; from complete stop of boundaries to its most subtle, nearly infinite bliss of celestial life. Everything is linked and connected. Soma is the life that flows through all this subtlety. Huge personalities, Gods, inhabit here, filling all of creation, all attention. The bliss is never ending until a final discrimination is made from the infinite bliss of the most subtle, celestial, incredible life to THAT...and then there is no more. Then bliss is like a dead dog in the road! Bliss is the darshan of Brahman, but not Brahman. If you believe that Brahman has the ability or will to do darshan, I guess you could think of it that way. If you conceive of Brahman as attributeless and non-sentient, then bliss could be seen as just a subroutine within a larger operating system. That's what I conceive of bliss being. Not a goal in itself, more of a side effect of having done something right. Its only value is in providing a reaffirmation that there is such a thing as going with the flow.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
Dude, thanks for sharing your nice experiences. I always enjoy hearing them. I think most here are pretty well indoctrinated to not confuse the path with the goal, and to not get caught up with the nice experiences along the way. But, it's always nice to hear them anyway, and share some of one's own. Thanks for the balanced come back. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, amarnath [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Lurk, You really didn't read what I said. But, think what you will; it's none of my business. But, perhaps I wasn't clear enough. So, let me try to clarify. I acknowledge that Steve had amazingly beautiful experiences and bliss. But so what? This was his first time in large group with a lot of expectations and because of his satvic mind and heart and perseverance it seems to have paid off. I especially resonated with his heart experiences because I had some too; first one 36 years ago; and not too many people have these. Perhaps, I should ahve mentioned this. Before, I gave up Siddhis, I used to go to WPAs every year at least once and after a few days of rest, always experienced quite a lot of BLISS during flying; and would smile from ear to ear. Other Sutra's were more or less not clear but one or two would take me to the heart and eyes, etc. What happened was breath of fire started spontaneously and at first was very blissful; then problematic, especially with all that foam dust; also knees were beginning to give out; I'm older than most here. So, like Rick and many others, I quit the Siddhis and just extended my TM program until I met Amma and started doing other practices. My point was and is that the essence of Vedanta Advaita, Yoga Vasishta, Shankara, Ramana Mahrashi, Amma's teachings, Nisargadatta, Eckhart Tolle and many other current teachers is that the ultimate goal is to find out Who you are? Who is the one having most blissful experiences, or whatever? You are not your experiences is the ultimate Truth that the greatest Mahatmas and greatest teachings tell us. This is contrary to what MMY was teaching us. So, why should I have envy for something( Bliss ) that I have already experienced many times and know in my heart that that can be an obstacle to what I really what to know is : Who am I? Perhaps, it's not possible to say email-wise what I have learned from many Advaita books, my own experiences and with Amma. Papaji's The Truth is and Nisargadatta's I Am That are a good place to start. I'll do another post on Eckhart Tolle, soon. God Bless, anatol --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 steve.sundur@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, amarnath anatol_zinc@ wrote: Boy, Rick, it certainly sounds like you are too easily swayed by a little BLISS. Sure for a few minutes, I too enjoyed Steve's amazing story. And I feel there is great hope for him, because of his heart experience. But let's wait and see where the Self guides him. In my case, the Self guided me away from M-ego-nonsense and to Amma a genuine Mahatma free of ego. Anatol, you're a fucken idiot, and your envy is poorly concealed. The guy is having a nice experience, and he is not reveling in it. He is simply sharing it. You choose to read all kinds of superficiality into it. Obviously your results with Amma are lacking, and rather than enjoy a beautiful experience, from a fellow seeker, you seek to find some way to discredit it, perhaps because it is from a different school. Search your soul and motives if you have the courage, which I highly doubt.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
nablusoss1008 wrote: Very nice, thanks for posting this. Your patience has payed off. Unfortunately it is wasted on this group of cynics who, like Rick Archer said, hardly had any experiences on the sutras. Could there be a meaner person than Nablus? I don't think so. And of course it is entirely fruitless to try to engage him. His responses are predictable, and his role is like that of a pop up ad that pops up the same message every time a certain phrase or thought is expressed. Rick: I'm not cynical about the siddhis. I'm just being honest about my lack of experience with them. As I said, I may very well have been doing them wrong. Or maybe my mind wasn't settled enough or my transcendence clear enough to produce the predicted result. Or maybe it's a different strokes for different folks kind of thing, and siddhis practice wasn't as relevant for me as it is for Steve. I agree with Amarnath that many people in the movement seem very egotistical. Back on my 6-month course, most of the great experience guys had huge egos, and were always competing with each other in terms of whose experience was flashiest. Most of them have since left the movement. The folks at the core of today's movement seem to be cut from the same mold, and Maharishi seems to have done everything possible to inflate their egos. If pride goeth before a fall, their fates over the next several years should be interesting to watch. Anyway, I think Steve's accounts were fascinating, and he seems like a humble guy. His experiences don't seem to have bloated his ego. Question for Amarnath: if the koshas, or sheaths, are concentric, with bliss being the innermost, it seems to me that evolution involves piercing them sequentially. I guess you could get hung up on any one of them, and just as the ring became more powerful the closer Frodo got to the Crack of Doom, maybe each successive sheath has greater power to ensnare the ego. But I've seen many people go through what Steve is going through prior to what looks to me like a genuine and permanent spiritual awakening: lots of bliss, lots of crying as the knots of the heart loosen, lots of love and gratitude. To me, these are symptoms of liberation, not of delusion. So I'd cut Steve some slack. BTW, Steve. Your greatest bit of acting was in All of Me when the bowl containing Lily Tomlin's soul fell out the window, and hit you on the street below, and her soul and yours began contending for control of your body. Laughed my guts out. Thanks for that. I wish you were hosting the Oscars again tomorrow night instead of John Stewart. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.9/1295 - Release Date: 2/23/2008 9:35 PM
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
On Feb 24, 2008, at 12:40 AM, Rick Archer wrote: I agree with Amarnath that many people in the movement seem very egotistical. Back on my 6-month course, most of the “great experience” guys had huge egos, and were always competing with each other in terms of whose experience was flashiest. Here's that quote again :-). You hit that one right on the head: Bliss Whenever you consider there is bliss, and the objective conditions for bliss occur, if you fall under the control of that by becoming arrogant or conceited, then that will fester as an obstruction to the spiritual path. Rather than thinking about what has caused this happiness, which most probably is the accumulation of merit or the removal of obscurations, as soon as the bliss occurs, you think, ''That's my nature. Based on that, you become arrogant or lazy, thinking, Well, I've accomplished it. This is the greatest obstacle to the spiritual path. This is what creates the realms of deva-gods. Oftentimes it is said that people can handle only a little bit of felicity, but they can handle a lot of adversity. This is because happiness on the spiritual path is the most difficult thing to handle. Once it arises, that's where the path stops. This does not mean that it is necessary to give it all up. Giving up happiness is not the practice. The main point is not to become mesmerized by happiness as the end result. You realize that, Ah, now, the good quality of this is that I am fortunate, and this is another result of the great fortune of the path and the result of the accumulation of merit and wholesome deeds. Even more than ever, I will carry on with the work at hand to achieve liberation from cyclic existence. So with more diligence and more courage, you continue listening to teachings, contemplating, meditating, and appreciating this precious human rebirth. --from Meditation, Transformation, and Dream Yoga http://www.snowlionpub.com/search.php?isbn=METRDR by Venerable Gyatrul Rinpoche, translated by Sangye Khandro and B. Alan Wallace
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
On Feb 23, 2008, at 7:07 PM, ruthsimplicity wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Very nice, thanks for posting this. Your patience has payed off. Unfortunately it is wasted on this group of cynics who, like Rick Archer said, hardly had any experiences on the sutras. I too was interested in reading of Steve's experiences. But Rick as a cynic? I haven't seen it yet. Which is surprising given 35 years of practice without similar experiences. What patience! I had none of the kind. I am much more of a cynic than Rick is. But I still don't deny other's their experiences. Tell me y'all, who has found the siddhi's experiences to be superior to that of 2 times 20 meditation of your mantra? What is superior? Those I know personally who do the full program do not show me that they are any different in positive ways. I have off and on meditated my 20 minutes twice a day for many years. I quit the siddhis course before I was done way back in the 70s and walked away. I am sorry to say but my impression was WTF? This is bogus! You might also enjoy reading the letter in the files section from Earl Kaplan, a former TMSP practitioner and multimillionaire. He was a close friend and major donor of MMY's until his separation from the movement some years ago. This letter was leaked while it was still in draft form and unfortunately there's been no followup. But it was important for a couple of reasons. Earl eventually met up with a lineage holder from the Saraswati order (same order as SBS) who was a realized master of kundalini and advaita (a style of awakening known as a chitrini arising). Such a line holder is able to guide a sincere student into full awakening. What he found with some people who practiced the TMSP longterm was that they had serious blockages in their kundalini due to that practice. To date they've helped quite few ex-TMSP practitioners who were damaged from the practice re-direct their dead-ended kundalini into a path leading to samadhi and realization. He has also successfully trained a western lineholder named Joan Harrigan. They have a website and a referral service at http://www.kundalinicare.com/ If you want to read the best book on the subject, check out Joan's privately published Kundalini Vidya. It details what happens when kundalini risings go awry and how some questionable yogis can actually utilize such imbalanced arisings to their advantage. While certainly not a text which lends it self to objective science, it is a perfect example of a very refined lineal subjective inner science--like what Swami Brahmananda Saraswati would have understood and realized.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
If you can live without bliss, without having been denying it beforehand, then you are on a real high level of realization. But then I do not understand, why all that previous debasing, as you seem to do would be needed. What you express is somehow not rhyming. In my experience: Bliss is stupid. Bliss is dumb. As the bondage goes in this TM path there is tremendous bliss. Overwhelming bliss that grows and grows and grows...and grows. Then the siddhis start, not flying or turning invisible, but that capacity to know and fully comprehend each point of manifest life to it fullest; from complete stop of boundaries to its most subtle, nearly infinite bliss of celestial life. Everything is linked and connected. Soma is the life that flows through all this subtlety. Huge personalities, Gods, inhabit here, filling all of creation, all attention. The bliss is never ending until a final discrimination is made from the infinite bliss of the most subtle, celestial, incredible life to THAT...and then there is no more. Then bliss is like a dead dog in the road! Bliss is the darshan of Brahman, but not Brahman.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
I liked reading the experiences but sometimes hearing the additional judgementalisms of TMers is rather insipid and shallow. Like saying - all the flavors of awareness - and so on. That sort of copy paste pseudointellectualism isn't well founded in anything. It behooves a seeker to not admit to finding their end goal while they are still wet behind the ears. Wet behind the ears must necessarily match the description of all persons who have found their means of development through some new age mish mash of cliches and admonishments. Real seekers could not give the slightest damn about hurthing some movement's feelings or straying from the well lit playground to see where it was built. It should be rather obvious that a true path is one where using the mind and considering many often times conflicting views is the ideal. Though it may hurt a bit. Bliss and flavors of consciousness are really great. Especially if one has just experienced them for the first time, or first thousand times. But then they must be developed into a system for jnana or wisdom. How is that experienced used? Has one developed a working lifestyle? This is the question. This is the answer. The meditation is to produce a beneficial and well lived life. Not a life of avoiding things and reclusion. Sometimes yes, if that's your goal. But really life is not about hiding away. One should be able to get to the meditate a few minutes be perfect for the whole day stage at some point. If that isi not occuring then one needs more knowledge and training.
Re: Who taught the siddhis to you ? (Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington)
I went through all the breathing and noisemaking stages too, although eventually, at least at MIU, this was suppressed, which I think spoiled the spontaneity of what was going on. Later on, and that was the pity due to influence of frustrated and frustrating people, that often people thought they have to produce effects during the sessions, which definitely disturbed the strong coherence and unification of the group you could feel physically. When the exaggeration became sometimes unbearable, people were taught to exercise samyama on soma pavamana in order to get down from their conniptions. But it was undoubtfully functioning, that was fact. This point is unclear to me. First innocence of experience prevailed during the sessions. Later on, one could feel the leap, where certain people found it trendy to intentionally produce that, which normally used to be the spontaneous and natural output during the samyama-sessions. It was the first step to dilute the principle, by being a strong effort to distort cause and effect. But for those cases, where practitioners really could not help themselves but yelling, the best means for calming down for them was the grant to soma, which uses to be the super-fluid (some aspect of the neuro-transmitter serotonin), calming and lubricating the cells. I immediately corrected the instruction without asking, because I knew what would come from the small master, exactly what he told to me later on in boldfaced manner, saying that this was the modern version of the sutra and we don't go by all these interpretations of Patanjali. he obviously has never been troubling himself to read the holy scripture. Who is the small master you are referring to here? The small master my TM-teacher colleague Chandrakant Jani pretended to be, who constantly coquetted with the privilege of having been physically interconncected with the big master by telephone and generally as such. (I hope you are not going to ask me now, who the big master was meant to be). J
Re: No reverse gear needed (Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington)
On Feb 24, 2008, at 6:33 AM, Rick Archer wrote: I have to confess that I also had to brawl around with pretension against reality. I’m not sure what you mean here Hagen, due to English not being your native language. Please restate the point if you don’t mind. I don't know what he meant either, Rick, but the above is the line of the week! Great stuff, Hagen, whatever you meant. Sal
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity ruthsimplicity@ wrote: snip Tell me y'all, who has found the siddhi's experiences to be superior to that of 2 times 20 meditation of your mantra? What is superior? With the exception of Yogic Flying, I don't have much in the way of experiences *during* program, but the effects *outside* program are significantly greater than those of 2x20 TM, in all the standard ways--greater productivity and creativity, more energy, etc., just generally more *wholeness*. It's pretty subjective and subtle but *very* distinct. I described it once here as gradually but steadily increasing transparency in my experience of life. Thank you for sharing your positive experience. Those I know personally who do the full program do not show me that they are any different in positive ways. Different from what, in what ways? They just did not seem any different, except for working through the tics. Their reported subjective feelings about the benefits seemed vague to me but I do know that it is difficult to describe internal states. People often describe ah ha experiences they have, where in an instant something is made clear. I had the clear experience of suddenly looking outside myself to what was happening on the course and knowing deep inside that it was delusion. Now I cannot know if I am right or if anyone else is right about their spiritual experiences, but that was my experience. I hate to use the word because it might get people's back up, but I felt like I was witnessing something akin to group psychosis. I still find it interesting that I came to the practice with the expectation of being charmed and you came with the opposite expectation and we ended up in totally different places. And maybe that is just fine.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity ruthsimplicity@ wrote: snip Tell me y'all, who has found the siddhi's experiences to be superior to that of 2 times 20 meditation of your mantra? What is superior? With the exception of Yogic Flying, I don't have much in the way of experiences *during* program, but the effects *outside* program are significantly greater than those of 2x20 TM, in all the standard ways--greater productivity and creativity, more energy, etc., just generally more *wholeness*. It's pretty subjective and subtle but *very* distinct. I described it once here as gradually but steadily increasing transparency in my experience of life. Thank you for sharing your positive results. Those I know personally who do the full program do not show me that they are any different in positive ways. Different from what, in what ways? They just did not seem any different, except for working through the tics. Their reported subjective feelings about the benefits seemed vague to me but I do know that it is difficult to describe internal states. People often describe ah ha experiences they have, where in an instant something is made clear. I had the clear experience of suddenly looking outside myself to what was happening on the course and knowing deep inside that it was delusion. Now I cannot know if I am right or if anyone else is right about their spiritual experiences, but that was my experience. I hate to use the word because it might get people's back up, but I felt like I was witnessing something akin to group psychosis. I still find it interesting that I came to the practice with the expectation of being charmed and you came with the opposite expectation and we ended up in totally different places. And maybe that is just fine. The older I get the more comfortable I am with the mysteries.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In my experience: Bliss is stupid. Bliss is dumb. As the bondage goes in this TM path there is tremendous bliss. Overwhelming bliss that grows and grows and grows...and grows. Then the siddhis start, not flying or turning invisible, but that capacity to know and fully comprehend each point of manifest life to it fullest; from complete stop of boundaries to its most subtle, nearly infinite bliss of celestial life. Everything is linked and connected. Soma is the life that flows through all this subtlety. Huge personalities, Gods, inhabit here, filling all of creation, all attention. The bliss is never ending until a final discrimination is made from the infinite bliss of the most subtle, celestial, incredible life to THAT...and then there is no more. Then bliss is like a dead dog in the road! Bliss is the darshan of Brahman, but not Brahman. Thank you for the lovely description. I know everything is linked when on a warm day and I lay down on the grass and smell the warm earth.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity ruthsimplicity@ wrote: snip Those I know personally who do the full program do not show me that they are any different in positive ways. Different from what, in what ways? They just did not seem any different, I'm still not clear on this: different from what? Different from the way they used to be before they started practicing the TM-Sidhis? Different from people who don't practice the TM-Sidhis? snip People often describe ah ha experiences they have, where in an instant something is made clear. I had the clear experience of suddenly looking outside myself to what was happening on the course and knowing deep inside that it was delusion. Just out of curiosity, if you remember, at what stage of the course was this? Do you recall what specifically triggered this experience? I still find it interesting that I came to the practice with the expectation of being charmed and you came with the opposite expectation and we ended up in totally different places. Yes, even with regard to the delusion thing. I have had that sense many times throughout my involvement with TM, and did on the TM-Sidhis course as well at one point or another, but on a more superficial intellectual level. Then in some cases, specifically having to do with experiences, I suddenly knew deep inside that it wasn't delusion at all. And maybe that is just fine. The older I get the more comfortable I am with the mysteries. And a good thing too. ;-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: nablusoss1008 wrote: Very nice, thanks for posting this. Your patience has payed off. Unfortunately it is wasted on this group of cynics who, like Rick Archer said, hardly had any experiences on the sutras. Could there be a meaner person than Nablus? I don't think so. And of course it is entirely fruitless to try to engage him. His responses are predictable, and his role is like that of a pop up ad that pops up the same message every time a certain phrase or thought is expressed. Good grief, me mean ? I simply quoted Rick when he said he had no experiences (his words) - not that he was the most cynical here at FFL. Others occupy those seats.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
I know everything is linked when on a warm day and I lay down on the grass and smell the warm earth. Wow, that phrase had such a wonderful effect on me Ruth, thanks. Here is my contribution back in the category of the natural IS the divine. My all time favorite poem: A Blessing By James Wright Just off the highway to Rochester, Minnesota, Twilight bounds softly forth on the grass. And the eyes of those two Indian ponies Darken with kindness. They have come gladly out of the willows To welcome my friend and me. We step over the barbed wire into the pasture Where they have been grazing all day, alone. They ripple tensely, they can hardly contain their happiness That we have come. They bow shyly as wet swans. They love each other. There is no loneliness like theirs. At home once more, They begin munching the young tufts of spring in the darkness. I would like to hold the slenderer one in my arms, For she has walked over to me And nuzzled my left hand. She is black and white, Her mane falls wild on her forehead, And the light breeze moves me to caress her long ear That is delicate as the skin over a girl's wrist. Suddenly I realize That if I stepped out of my body I would break Into blossom. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote: In my experience: Bliss is stupid. Bliss is dumb. As the bondage goes in this TM path there is tremendous bliss. Overwhelming bliss that grows and grows and grows...and grows. Then the siddhis start, not flying or turning invisible, but that capacity to know and fully comprehend each point of manifest life to it fullest; from complete stop of boundaries to its most subtle, nearly infinite bliss of celestial life. Everything is linked and connected. Soma is the life that flows through all this subtlety. Huge personalities, Gods, inhabit here, filling all of creation, all attention. The bliss is never ending until a final discrimination is made from the infinite bliss of the most subtle, celestial, incredible life to THAT...and then there is no more. Then bliss is like a dead dog in the road! Bliss is the darshan of Brahman, but not Brahman. Thank you for the lovely description. I know everything is linked when on a warm day and I lay down on the grass and smell the warm earth.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
Peter writes snipped: Then bliss is like a dead dog in the road! Bliss is the darshan of Brahman, but not Brahman. TomT: Yes but if the indicator is there then attention and appreciation of what is going on in the moment surely leads to the understanding of Brahman. Appreciation is the tool that leads attention to the understanding. The experience is the body's way of handling the knowledge that is present in the moment. Paying deep attention and asking the experience itself for the knowledge it has for you will yield the results. If the understanding were complete we would have virtually no experience of bliss but rather would be processing what was happening as knowledge. At any moment we can go back to the most profound of our past experiences and ask for the knowledge that is contained in them. The bliss is the body storing the knowledge until it can be handled. The body is the hard drive for holding the knowledge until it can be appreciated as whole and full knowledge. Tom
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I have noticed that the people here whose perspective I seem to gain the most from have either kept the movement conditioning at arms length,(Judy and sometimes Lawson as examples), or followed other POVs deeply enough to be forced to think about the concepts outside the structured phrases of the belief system. (Kirk's recent post comes to mind, but many posters here have this skill) So I can't say that I believe that people who practice meditation or sidhis do develop any cognitive skills that seems like anything on the brochures. I don't think it automatically diminishes any cognitive abilities either. Lemme throw this into the mix: Given that we all are or were practitioners of TM, is it possible that having recognized the need to distance ourselves from movement conditioning is a function of improvement in our cognitive skills as a result of our TM practice (whether or not we've continued the practice itself)?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
snip Those I know personally who do the full program do not show me that they are any different in positive ways. Different from what, in what ways? They just did not seem any different, This discussion interests me. I have gone through these stages of thinking; Sidhas have developed more subtle, aware minds through their practice. (obviously when I was doing them!) Sidha are deluded and are being distracted from real thinking by a mind-numbing practice. (When I first left the movement) People's self awareness and capacity for genuine introspection is a completely separate development from any spiritual practice. Some people develop it and some do not. (New improved by FFL version) Now I believe that thoughtful people can extract meaning and value from any experience. But using a non-intellectual process as a substitute for the activity of thinking produces a person who lives in an intellectual world of cliche, thought-stopping phrases. I have noticed that the people here whose perspective I seem to gain the most from have either kept the movement conditioning at arms length,(Judy and sometimes Lawson as examples), or followed other POVs deeply enough to be forced to think about the concepts outside the structured phrases of the belief system. (Kirk's recent post comes to mind, but many posters here have this skill) So I can't say that I believe that people who practice meditation or sidhis do develop any cognitive skills that seems like anything on the brochures. I don't think it automatically diminishes any cognitive abilities either. Reports of results on sidhis are mostly the kind of results that a developed imagination can cook up, especially in the fluid and generative meditation state. You only get an occasional report of something happening that other people could verify outside their mind. With the exception of the flying sidha in the recent video who flew into the sky with his tits forward! It probably helped to stabilize his magical flight. I'm still not clear on this: different from what? Different from the way they used to be before they started practicing the TM-Sidhis? Different from people who don't practice the TM-Sidhis? snip People often describe ah ha experiences they have, where in an instant something is made clear. I had the clear experience of suddenly looking outside myself to what was happening on the course and knowing deep inside that it was delusion. Just out of curiosity, if you remember, at what stage of the course was this? Do you recall what specifically triggered this experience? I still find it interesting that I came to the practice with the expectation of being charmed and you came with the opposite expectation and we ended up in totally different places. Yes, even with regard to the delusion thing. I have had that sense many times throughout my involvement with TM, and did on the TM-Sidhis course as well at one point or another, but on a more superficial intellectual level. Then in some cases, specifically having to do with experiences, I suddenly knew deep inside that it wasn't delusion at all. And maybe that is just fine. The older I get the more comfortable I am with the mysteries. And a good thing too. ;-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
I hate to use the word because it might get people's back up, but I felt like I was witnessing something akin to group psychosis. Once upon a time, I, Chuang Tsu, dreamt I was a butterfly. . . . Suddenly I awaked, and there I lay, myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly dreaming I am a man. - Chuang Tsu
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
Lemme throw this into the mix: Given that we all are or were practitioners of TM, is it possible that having recognized the need to distance ourselves from movement conditioning is a function of improvement in our cognitive skills as a result of our TM practice (whether or not we've continued the practice itself)? It could be. But I just don't see any consistency of this position. When I was really deeply into the teaching, I was also really thoughtful about it, that is what drew me to the philosophy major. We had a chance to think about Maharishi's teaching through many POVs. I have some sense of my intellectual limits, but my mind has approached my interests in a similar way since I was a boy. So I suspect that you always enjoyed running your intellectual engine on topics of interest and guys like Bevan preferred to learn some phrases to spout, and then pursue his own power agendas. (judgmental much? Oh yeah!) If the practice actually enhanced this function I would expect to see more really thoughtful people representing the movement, and I just don't see any evidence for this. I'll also add that when I was doing the longest programs, my mental functions were no better than they are today. If anything the years of practicing my thinking has improved things considerably. That said, your experience may be quite different. But this is a very interesting topic for me. It goes to the heart of what does meditation improve or add to one's life? I've been doing my own research and have drifted back into using my longass mantra. The old engine just started up on its own. So I am tying to get a sense of what mental areas are improved by meditating. I am enjoying it. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: snip I have noticed that the people here whose perspective I seem to gain the most from have either kept the movement conditioning at arms length,(Judy and sometimes Lawson as examples), or followed other POVs deeply enough to be forced to think about the concepts outside the structured phrases of the belief system. (Kirk's recent post comes to mind, but many posters here have this skill) So I can't say that I believe that people who practice meditation or sidhis do develop any cognitive skills that seems like anything on the brochures. I don't think it automatically diminishes any cognitive abilities either. Lemme throw this into the mix: Given that we all are or were practitioners of TM, is it possible that having recognized the need to distance ourselves from movement conditioning is a function of improvement in our cognitive skills as a result of our TM practice (whether or not we've continued the practice itself)?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
On Feb 24, 2008, at 11:04 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: Reports of results on sidhis are mostly the kind of results that a developed imagination can cook up, especially in the fluid and generative meditation state. Independent research on what type of people are attracted to TM would seem to support this assertion. TMers, probably due to the type of people who tend to be attracted to that type of meditation, tend to have episodes of absorbed and 'self-altering' attention that are sustained by imaginative and 'enactive' representations (Tellegen, 1977, p. 2) and a tendency to be 'imaginatively enthralled by inner creations,' 'charmed by the works of the imagination'. (Smith, 1978)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 24, 2008, at 11:04 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: Reports of results on sidhis are mostly the kind of results that a developed imagination can cook up, especially in the fluid and generative meditation state. Independent research on what type of people are attracted to TM would seem to support this assertion. TMers, probably due to the type of people who tend to be attracted to that type of meditation, tend to have episodes of absorbed and 'self-altering' attention that are sustained by imaginative and 'enactive' representations (Tellegen, 1977, p. 2) and a tendency to be 'imaginatively enthralled by inner creations,' 'charmed by the works of the imagination'. (Smith, 1978) Very interesting Vaj, are these studies online?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lemme throw this into the mix: Given that we all are or were practitioners of TM, is it possible that having recognized the need to distance ourselves from movement conditioning is a function of improvement in our cognitive skills as a result of our TM practice (whether or not we've continued the practice itself)? It could be. But I just don't see any consistency of this position. When I was really deeply into the teaching, I was also really thoughtful about it, that is what drew me to the philosophy major. We had a chance to think about Maharishi's teaching through many POVs. I have some sense of my intellectual limits, but my mind has approached my interests in a similar way since I was a boy. So I suspect that you always enjoyed running your intellectual engine on topics of interest and guys like Bevan preferred to learn some phrases to spout, and then pursue his own power agendas. (judgmental much? Oh yeah!) If the practice actually enhanced this function I would expect to see more really thoughtful people representing the movement, and I just don't see any evidence for this. Well, OK, but we really don't know where each of us has started from, or which of our potentials is scheduled for development. As far as Bevan is concerned, in his defense, he's no slouch in the intellect department where MMY's teaching is concerned. He doesn't just spout phrases by any means when he's talking about it in depth (as opposed to pontificating at celebrations and such). And bear in mind, I'm still entirely sold on MMY's teaching about the nature and mechanics of consciousness. I haven't distanced myself from that at all. But if distancing oneself from the movement is a sign of cognitive development, it seems that one would *not* expect to see more thoughtful people representing the movement--to the contrary, the ones who experience improvement in their cognitive skills are more likely to leave or stay away from it in the first place. It's the folks with power agendas who *can't* think more deeply about movement nuttiness who end up running it, by default. Or maybe by design. A messianic operation, of necessity, it seems to me, can't be composed of second-guessers. At the very top, though, you have people like Bevan and Hagelin and (I think) King Tony, who are highly developed intellectually but may need to work on the way they deal with power. To do that, they have to buy into the movement power structure. At any rate, I don't think it's a one-size-fits- all model. I do think the cognitive development bit may apply to many of us who keep our distance from the movement. I'll also add that when I was doing the longest programs, my mental functions were no better than they are today. If anything the years of practicing my thinking has improved things considerably. But perhaps the container was being expanded during those long programs, and after you quit, you began to fill up the container with new contents. And possibly, as I'm suggesting, some of the first contents were your doubts about the movement, even before you actually made the decision to quit. That said, your experience may be quite different. But this is a very interesting topic for me. It goes to the heart of what does meditation improve or add to one's life? I've been doing my own research and have drifted back into using my longass mantra. The old engine just started up on its own. So I am tying to get a sense of what mental areas are improved by meditating. I am enjoying it. Look forward to future reports from you from the field... (er, no pun intended!).
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
This post (below) and the threads on Kirk's and Steve's (and Hagen's) experiences are what makes FFL such a resource. Thanks one and all. FFL seems like a great big paramecium and every once in a while it gives this big jump(!) and a wiggle of the cilia of attention that sure interests me. Great stuff! ** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Those I know personally who do the full program do not show me that they are any different in positive ways. Different from what, in what ways? They just did not seem any different, This discussion interests me. I have gone through these stages of thinking; Sidhas have developed more subtle, aware minds through their practice. (obviously when I was doing them!) Sidha are deluded and are being distracted from real thinking by a mind-numbing practice. (When I first left the movement) People's self awareness and capacity for genuine introspection is a completely separate development from any spiritual practice. Some people develop it and some do not. (New improved by FFL version) Now I believe that thoughtful people can extract meaning and value from any experience. But using a non-intellectual process as a substitute for the activity of thinking produces a person who lives in an intellectual world of cliche, thought-stopping phrases. I have noticed that the people here whose perspective I seem to gain the most from have either kept the movement conditioning at arms length,(Judy and sometimes Lawson as examples), or followed other POVs deeply enough to be forced to think about the concepts outside the structured phrases of the belief system. (Kirk's recent post comes to mind, but many posters here have this skill) So I can't say that I believe that people who practice meditation or sidhis do develop any cognitive skills that seems like anything on the brochures. I don't think it automatically diminishes any cognitive abilities either. Reports of results on sidhis are mostly the kind of results that a developed imagination can cook up, especially in the fluid and generative meditation state. You only get an occasional report of something happening that other people could verify outside their mind. With the exception of the flying sidha in the recent video who flew into the sky with his tits forward! It probably helped to stabilize his magical flight. I'm still not clear on this: different from what? Different from the way they used to be before they started practicing the TM-Sidhis? Different from people who don't practice the TM-Sidhis? snip People often describe ah ha experiences they have, where in an instant something is made clear. I had the clear experience of suddenly looking outside myself to what was happening on the course and knowing deep inside that it was delusion. Just out of curiosity, if you remember, at what stage of the course was this? Do you recall what specifically triggered this experience? I still find it interesting that I came to the practice with the expectation of being charmed and you came with the opposite expectation and we ended up in totally different places. Yes, even with regard to the delusion thing. I have had that sense many times throughout my involvement with TM, and did on the TM-Sidhis course as well at one point or another, but on a more superficial intellectual level. Then in some cases, specifically having to do with experiences, I suddenly knew deep inside that it wasn't delusion at all. And maybe that is just fine. The older I get the more comfortable I am with the mysteries. And a good thing too. ;-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
Thanks for this poem (below), and thanks, too, Ruth; I loved your phrase and it really caught me up. ** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know everything is linked when on a warm day and I lay down on the grass and smell the warm earth. Wow, that phrase had such a wonderful effect on me Ruth, thanks. Here is my contribution back in the category of the natural IS the divine. My all time favorite poem: A Blessing By James Wright Just off the highway to Rochester, Minnesota, Twilight bounds softly forth on the grass. And the eyes of those two Indian ponies Darken with kindness. They have come gladly out of the willows To welcome my friend and me. We step over the barbed wire into the pasture Where they have been grazing all day, alone. They ripple tensely, they can hardly contain their happiness That we have come. They bow shyly as wet swans. They love each other. There is no loneliness like theirs. At home once more, They begin munching the young tufts of spring in the darkness. I would like to hold the slenderer one in my arms, For she has walked over to me And nuzzled my left hand. She is black and white, Her mane falls wild on her forehead, And the light breeze moves me to caress her long ear That is delicate as the skin over a girl's wrist. Suddenly I realize That if I stepped out of my body I would break Into blossom. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity ruthsimplicity@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote: In my experience: Bliss is stupid. Bliss is dumb. As the bondage goes in this TM path there is tremendous bliss. Overwhelming bliss that grows and grows and grows...and grows. Then the siddhis start, not flying or turning invisible, but that capacity to know and fully comprehend each point of manifest life to it fullest; from complete stop of boundaries to its most subtle, nearly infinite bliss of celestial life. Everything is linked and connected. Soma is the life that flows through all this subtlety. Huge personalities, Gods, inhabit here, filling all of creation, all attention. The bliss is never ending until a final discrimination is made from the infinite bliss of the most subtle, celestial, incredible life to THAT...and then there is no more. Then bliss is like a dead dog in the road! Bliss is the darshan of Brahman, but not Brahman. Thank you for the lovely description. I know everything is linked when on a warm day and I lay down on the grass and smell the warm earth.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Feb 24, 2008, at 11:04 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: Reports of results on sidhis are mostly the kind of results that a developed imagination can cook up, especially in the fluid and generative meditation state. Independent research on what type of people are attracted to TM would seem to support this assertion. TMers, probably due to the type of people who tend to be attracted to that type of meditation, tend to have episodes of absorbed and 'self-altering' attention that are sustained by imaginative and 'enactive' representations (Tellegen, 1977, p. 2) and a tendency to be 'imaginatively enthralled by inner creations,' 'charmed by the works of the imagination'. (Smith, 1978) Very interesting Vaj, are these studies online? I could teach almost any (mail) body a technique, that I figgered out *mainly* based on the second to last suutra of (Kashmir shaivism) Shiva-suutras, which goes like this: naasikaantarmadhya-*saMyamaat* kimatra savyaapasavyasauSumneSu. After doing that for a while none of you *lads* would doubt the stiffening power of saMyama! ;) - Rjvii kuDNalinii bhavet! (Yoga-kuNDalyupaniSat)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
On Feb 24, 2008, at 12:10 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 24, 2008, at 11:04 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: Reports of results on sidhis are mostly the kind of results that a developed imagination can cook up, especially in the fluid and generative meditation state. Independent research on what type of people are attracted to TM would seem to support this assertion. TMers, probably due to the type of people who tend to be attracted to that type of meditation, tend to have episodes of absorbed and 'self-altering' attention that are sustained by imaginative and 'enactive' representations (Tellegen, 1977, p. 2) and a tendency to be 'imaginatively enthralled by inner creations,' 'charmed by the works of the imagination'. (Smith, 1978) Very interesting Vaj, are these studies online? Not sure. It's from the personality part of Meditation: In Search of a Unique Effect.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know everything is linked when on a warm day and I lay down on the grass and smell the warm earth. Didn't you forget a Karen Capenter song going on in the background?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 steve.sundur@ wrote: nablusoss1008 wrote: Very nice, thanks for posting this. Your patience has payed off. Unfortunately it is wasted on this group of cynics who, like Rick Archer said, hardly had any experiences on the sutras. Could there be a meaner person than Nablus? I don't think so. And of course it is entirely fruitless to try to engage him. His responses are predictable, and his role is like that of a pop up ad that pops up the same message every time a certain phrase or thought is expressed. Good grief, me mean ? I simply quoted Rick when he said he had no experiences (his words) - not that he was the most cynical here at FFL. Others occupy those seats. I see. I guess I misunderstood :-(
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
Me: I'll also add that when I was doing the longest programs, my mental functions were no better than they are today. If anything the years of practicing my thinking has improved things considerably. Judy: But perhaps the container was being expanded during those long programs, and after you quit, you began to fill up the container with new contents. And possibly, as I'm suggesting, some of the first contents were your doubts about the movement, even before you actually made the decision to quit. I don't think I have a reference experience for container of knowledge anymore. I remember how we used to describe it by the example of when you are tired...and when you are really awake. But the truth is that as I age I notice this difference less and less. There is very little difference in how my mind functions once I engage it from being tired or not. It may take me a bit of effort at first to get the donkey to commit to a challenging mental process if I am tired...but my thinking is not perceptibly different. So the concept of a container for knowledge has lost meaning from my experience. I would like to hear how you experience it. Because it doesn't seem to manifest in any predictable way in long term mediators it is hard for me to get a handle on what is meant. As far as doubts go when I was in the movement, I really had no reason to doubt anything. My experience matched what Maharishi was talking about and I accepted his authority in the field of consciousness. I had long ago reconciled the way the movement was run as a survival technique, so that had nothing to do with me reconsidering. As I have said before, it was my finding completely new perspectives on the whole thing that kind of popped me out of my movement POV. Since I have never been exposed to these POVs before I never had a chance to choose or to doubt that Maharishi wasn't exactly who he claimed to be. It was like when the church discovered the writings of Aristotle and Plato, a complete cosmology that didn't include God as they know him. It set St. Thomas Aquinas off on his mission and me on mine. But meditating now has some differences that I am uncovering as I go along. What is the same is the same reliable endorphine dump, expansion pleasure during meditation. But doing it without the belief in what that experience means has some implications. I don't believe that I am getting super deep rest or that I am releasing stress. I don't connect the experience with anything spiritual. It seems to be an alternate mental channel that is enjoyable for its own sake, not for any benefit. That said, I do feel an increase of slight dissociation (not meant as a pejorative) and I am still evaluating the pros and cons of this alteration. I am not assuming that it is either positive or negative so far, and I suspect that it is a matter of degree. What I was experiencing in my movement days seems like too much of a good thing for me now. So I am approaching a state of innocence, as much as that term ever really applies to my high spin filters. One thing that interested me about what Howard Stern and Robin said about their TM practice was that it took away their desire to smoke. I was addicted to cigarettes for a short time over a decade ago, and it was an interesting exploration on neurotransmitters overriding my cortical reasoning. I did slip out of the addiction but it was a bit tricky. So if I have a belief about what meditation does, it is that it does give a boost of endorphin (true science types who know what these words really mean please feel free to snicker at my scientific butchery). This pleasure bump is highly addictive for me. It was very natural for me to go right back to a twice a day meditation practice. And I do feel that this good feeling is an asset for my day. I can't put my finger on exactly how, and since I am not following any script about what it all means, it may take some time to really decide. But for now it is almost a nostalgic experience for me to sit quietly and even just as an experiment in connecting with a lost part of my past, it has a value for me. And of course I'm secretly hoping that next year I can come out with my White Album! --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: Lemme throw this into the mix: Given that we all are or were practitioners of TM, is it possible that having recognized the need to distance ourselves from movement conditioning is a function of improvement in our cognitive skills as a result of our TM practice (whether or not we've continued the practice itself)? It could be. But I just don't see any consistency of this position. When I was really deeply into the teaching, I was also really thoughtful about it, that is what drew me to the philosophy major. We had a chance to think about Maharishi's
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
On Feb 24, 2008, at 1:39 PM, cardemaister wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Feb 24, 2008, at 11:04 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: Reports of results on sidhis are mostly the kind of results that a developed imagination can cook up, especially in the fluid and generative meditation state. Independent research on what type of people are attracted to TM would seem to support this assertion. TMers, probably due to the type of people who tend to be attracted to that type of meditation, tend to have episodes of absorbed and 'self-altering' attention that are sustained by imaginative and 'enactive' representations (Tellegen, 1977, p. 2) and a tendency to be 'imaginatively enthralled by inner creations,' 'charmed by the works of the imagination'. (Smith, 1978) Very interesting Vaj, are these studies online? I could teach almost any (mail) body a technique, that I figgered out *mainly* based on the second to last suutra of (Kashmir shaivism) Shiva-suutras, which goes like this: naasikaantarmadhya-*saMyamaat* kimatra savyaapasavyasauSumneSu. After doing that for a while none of you *lads* would doubt the stiffening power of saMyama! ;) - Rjvii kuDNalinii bhavet! (Yoga-kuNDalyupaniSat) The only thing is Card, saMyama in the Kashmir Shaivite system of meditation has a different meaning than in the YS/yoga-darshana. I believe the last acharya of that tradition, Sw. Lakshman Joo explains this in his commentary on the SS.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Me: I'll also add that when I was doing the longest programs, my mental functions were no better than they are today. If anything the years of practicing my thinking has improved things considerably. Judy: But perhaps the container was being expanded during those long programs, and after you quit, you began to fill up the container with new contents. And possibly, as I'm suggesting, some of the first contents were your doubts about the movement, even before you actually made the decision to quit. I don't think I have a reference experience for container of knowledge anymore. I remember how we used to describe it by the example of when you are tired...and when you are really awake. But the truth is that as I age I notice this difference less and less. There is very little difference in how my mind functions once I engage it from being tired or not. It may take me a bit of effort at first to get the donkey to commit to a challenging mental process if I am tired...but my thinking is not perceptibly different. So the concept of a container for knowledge has lost meaning from my experience. I would like to hear how you experience it. Because it doesn't seem to manifest in any predictable way in long term mediators it is hard for me to get a handle on what is meant. Well, container is only one metaphor. I could perhaps describe my experience more like an increase in degree of resolution; my cognitions seem to be increasingly finer-grained. To strain this analogy to encompass your objection to the container one, maybe it was as if you'd gotten a new video card (built slowly over time as a result of your program) but hadn't set the computer to make use of the higher resolution of which it was capable until you left the movement, whereupon you suddenly had so much more and new and different to look at that you could *use* the higher resolution. Boy, that creaks, but maybe you can triangulate on that and the container analogy to see what I'm getting at! snip But meditating now has some differences that I am uncovering as I go along. What is the same is the same reliable endorphine dump, expansion pleasure during meditation. But doing it without the belief in what that experience means has some implications. I don't believe that I am getting super deep rest or that I am releasing stress. I don't connect the experience with anything spiritual. It seems to be an alternate mental channel that is enjoyable for its own sake, not for any benefit. That said, I do feel an increase of slight dissociation (not meant as a pejorative) and I am still evaluating the pros and cons of this alteration. I am not assuming that it is either positive or negative so far, and I suspect that it is a matter of degree. What I was experiencing in my movement days seems like too much of a good thing for me now. So I am approaching a state of innocence, as much as that term ever really applies to my high spin filters. This strikes me as super-neat. snip I can't put my finger on exactly how, and since I am not following any script about what it all means, it may take some time to really decide. If I might suggest, try to put any such decisions off as long as possible. But for now it is almost a nostalgic experience for me to sit quietly and even just as an experiment in connecting with a lost part of my past, it has a value for me. And of course I'm secretly hoping that next year I can come out with my White Album! We're gonna hold you to that, dude...
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It does seem impossible to evaluate anyone else's experience. Certainly our experiences, spiritual or otherwise, are colored by innumerable factors having to do with our unique conditioning. I did want to say, however, that the term group delusion has come up in my mind about the TMO. I don't think it's any different, though, than the shared delusions or illusions people may have as part of a religion or even a culture. I do think our experiences can be colored, or even created, out of a set of expectations and desires which are reinforced in a group. It's that you were able to own your experience and perception despite the influence of the group, and to not second guess yourself that maybe you were mistaken. People often describe ah ha experiences they have, where in an instant something is made clear. I had the clear experience of suddenly looking outside myself to what was happening on the course and knowing deep inside that it was delusion. Now I cannot know if I am right or if anyone else is right about their spiritual experiences, but that was my experience. I hate to use the word because it might get people's back up, but I felt like I was witnessing something akin to group psychosis.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, abutilon108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I did want to say, however, that the term group delusion has come up in my mind about the TMO. I don't think it's any different, though, than the shared delusions or illusions people may have as part of a religion or even a culture. I do think our experiences can be colored, or even created, out of a set of expectations and desires which are reinforced in a group. I think it's interesting that MMY died, and we started talking about the powerful effect he had on people, at the same time that a very similar phenomenon seems to be occurring in the general population with Barack Obama.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
Well, container is only one metaphor. I could perhaps describe my experience more like an increase in degree of resolution; my cognitions seem to be increasingly finer-grained. The really helpful thing is that you are using a personally chosen vocabulary here. I appreciate your taking a bit of time to describe what it means for you and hope some others weigh in. This is a pretty central area and it is rare to hear a perspective on it without all the predictable meanings attached in an obvious manor. (I experienced my big Self as bliss and bliss is all I am and the unboundednessitudehodd of Brahman made me wet my drawers) Your explanation doesn't seem to conflict with my secular approach to the whole thing. Even if meditation just makes your mind quiet enough for you to feel more centered and notice your own feelings better, that is enough reason to take the occasional mantra induced chill pill. What strikes me at first is a lack of contrast perspective to understand what you are comparing this to. In my own intellectual growth in my recent NON meditating years, I can find that your description also matches my own growth from getting older.(which seems to be my most compelling, and relentless internal growth technique.) Although I might substitute delicate for finer-grained, your choice of words work for me. So I am back to the problem of causation between meditation and this perspective. It isn't really a problem if you just accept that what makes you you is partially your practice of meditation. To consider a non meditating control Judy becomes kind of stupid. Likewise I can never know the version of me who didn't devote 15 years to the pursuit of the goals of Maharishi's perspective and teaching. I am a bit suspicious of my own ability to sort out much causation from my recent practice, but we'll see. At first I sort of resisted using a mantra since I do experience a similar state without one once I close my eyes and let silence dominate my attention. I didn't want to link the experience to my past practice to hopefully avoid some of the conceptual baggage. This worked out well for a while, but then the old engine started up and I had to decide if I cared enough to actively stop it. I decided around the time Maharishi died that this was kind of silly. TM may not be the only way to gain a state of meditation, but it clearly is the one I have put the time into. Now when I notice a conceptual package coming up I just treat it like any other thought! But it is interesting to decide what I choose to believe about the practice since I am flying blind on this. Your advise of not rushing how I feel about it seems sound. I am not in any hurry. Thanks for the nice rap Judy. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: Me: I'll also add that when I was doing the longest programs, my mental functions were no better than they are today. If anything the years of practicing my thinking has improved things considerably. Judy: But perhaps the container was being expanded during those long programs, and after you quit, you began to fill up the container with new contents. And possibly, as I'm suggesting, some of the first contents were your doubts about the movement, even before you actually made the decision to quit. I don't think I have a reference experience for container of knowledge anymore. I remember how we used to describe it by the example of when you are tired...and when you are really awake. But the truth is that as I age I notice this difference less and less. There is very little difference in how my mind functions once I engage it from being tired or not. It may take me a bit of effort at first to get the donkey to commit to a challenging mental process if I am tired...but my thinking is not perceptibly different. So the concept of a container for knowledge has lost meaning from my experience. I would like to hear how you experience it. Because it doesn't seem to manifest in any predictable way in long term mediators it is hard for me to get a handle on what is meant. Well, container is only one metaphor. I could perhaps describe my experience more like an increase in degree of resolution; my cognitions seem to be increasingly finer-grained. To strain this analogy to encompass your objection to the container one, maybe it was as if you'd gotten a new video card (built slowly over time as a result of your program) but hadn't set the computer to make use of the higher resolution of which it was capable until you left the movement, whereupon you suddenly had so much more and new and different to look at that you could *use* the higher resolution. Boy, that creaks, but maybe you can triangulate on that and the container analogy to see what I'm getting at! snip
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
People's self awareness and capacity for genuine introspection is a completely separate development from any spiritual practice. Some people develop it and some do not. (New improved by FFL version) Doesn't seem to me that the development of these has anything to do with spiritual practice. I like that spiritual is in quotes, because that term can mean so many different things. Most of my life I thought I was so spiritual. I'd go so far as to say I was a spiritual snob. The longer I live, and the less relevant to a full life and living most spiritual concepts and practices seem to me, the more I discover people whose lives and characters really inspire me who have never done any so-called spiritual practice. I remember once when I was working in a hospice program. I worked with a patient (dying man) who had been involved in spiritual pursuits for most of his life. He had put a lot of attention on spirituality. Yet, of all the people I'd worked with, he had the most fear of losing control and dying. His brother would come to visit and in the course of conversation would refer to the patient as the spiritual one, stating that he himself wasn't particularly spiritual. What struck me, however, was that this brother (the non-spiritual one) showed a tremendous capacity for compassion and did a great deal of giving in his life. He was a successful man materially and had a good family life. In every way, he seemed to represent what most people think would be some of the fruits of spiritual practice. Enjoyed the line of thinking in the rest of you post, BTW.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
I've noticed the same thing whenever I've worked with the dying. I've also noticed that sometimes there is amazing grace and the dying person drops being the person and becomes radiant loving and light. Have you seen that? My mother was the queen bitch from hell, and caring for her during her last eight years of life (she was utterly paralyzed) was maha tapas for me but well worth it in the end as she dropped her personhood and became pure love. --- abutilon108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: People's self awareness and capacity for genuine introspection is a completely separate development from any spiritual practice. Some people develop it and some do not. (New improved by FFL version) Doesn't seem to me that the development of these has anything to do with spiritual practice. I like that spiritual is in quotes, because that term can mean so many different things. Most of my life I thought I was so spiritual. I'd go so far as to say I was a spiritual snob. The longer I live, and the less relevant to a full life and living most spiritual concepts and practices seem to me, the more I discover people whose lives and characters really inspire me who have never done any so-called spiritual practice. I remember once when I was working in a hospice program. I worked with a patient (dying man) who had been involved in spiritual pursuits for most of his life. He had put a lot of attention on spirituality. Yet, of all the people I'd worked with, he had the most fear of losing control and dying. His brother would come to visit and in the course of conversation would refer to the patient as the spiritual one, stating that he himself wasn't particularly spiritual. What struck me, however, was that this brother (the non-spiritual one) showed a tremendous capacity for compassion and did a great deal of giving in his life. He was a successful man materially and had a good family life. In every way, he seemed to represent what most people think would be some of the fruits of spiritual practice. Enjoyed the line of thinking in the rest of you post, BTW. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It goes to the heart of what does meditation improve or add to one's life? Wow -- this is such a complex question for me when I start to think about it. First of all, cause and effect seems less and less like a reality to me. Everything seems more and more like a simultaneous happening which only has a cause and effect story line when viewed through various mental and psychological functions. That's getting pretty abstract, but my mind goes there, so I'll now try to be more concrete. I can say that after I started TM, I felt better. Was that because of the effect of the meditation, or was it because I thought I had something in my life that I thought was going to improve my life ad infinitum? So first problem for me is what caused me to feel better, TM or something else? In fact, there are so many things influencing us all of the time, how can we say what particular influence causes something? Along other lines, some good things happened after starting TM, but so did some bad things. So are only the good things from TM? And then in more recent years, my life seemed to improve a lot when I stopped doing TM regularly. Maybe TM is good at certain times and not others. Maybe I could have done any number of other practices and had the same results. Maybe it would have happened anyway because of the planets. I can't ever really know. All I seem to be able to do these days is see what I do. Lately I've been meditating in the afternoon sometimes when I'm tired because it is deeply restful for. If I feel really good afterwards and even if some special experience happens, I don't draw any conclusions about it. Tomorrow's another day.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Curtis, you said That said, I do feel an increase of slight dissociation (not meant as a pejorative) and I am still evaluating the pros and cons of this alteration. I am not assuming that it is either positive or negative so far, and I suspect that it is a matter of degree. I do hope you'll follow up later on with what you experience. I was feeling some dissociation when I was still meditating regularly, and the disappearance of this when I stopped was very welcome. There was a sense of separation that disappeared, and the experience of my interface with life felt more seamless, if that makes sense. I have a friend who also mentioned dissociation, and I've wondered about that a lot. As I said in another post, I still meditate sometimes when I'm tired, and doing it occasionally doesn't bring that effect -- perhaps as you say it's a matter of degree. I find it difficult to even pinpoint what I mean by dissociation, but in that you and my friend mentioned it, I'm curious to investigate it more.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, abutilon108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: Curtis, you said That said, I do feel an increase of slight dissociation (not meant as a pejorative) and I am still evaluating the pros and cons of this alteration. I am not assuming that it is either positive or negative so far, and I suspect that it is a matter of degree. I do hope you'll follow up later on with what you experience. I was feeling some dissociation when I was still meditating regularly, and the disappearance of this when I stopped was very welcome. There was a sense of separation that disappeared, and the experience of my interface with life felt more seamless, if that makes sense. I have a friend who also mentioned dissociation, and I've wondered about that a lot. Could it have been what MMY calls witnessing, a sense of the separation of the Self and activity? That's *supposed* to be a sign of the beginning of the first stage of enlightenment in MMY's formulation, cosmic consciousness (which is defined as 24-hour- a-day permanent witnessing during waking, dreaming, and deep sleep). He also notes (in his Gita commentary) that it can be a disconcerting, disorienting experience at first if you don't have an intellectual framework for it.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
The only thing is Card, saMyama in the Kashmir Shaivite system
of
meditation has a different meaning than in the YS/yoga-darshana.
I
believe the last acharya of that tradition, Sw. Lakshman Joo
explains
this in his commentary on the SS.
Is it perhaps any one of these mentioned by Monier-Williams:
saMyama m. holding together , restraint , control , (esp.) control
of the senses , self-control Mn. MBh. c. ; tying up (the hair)
Sa1h. ; binding , fettering VarBr2S. ; closing (of the eyes)
Ma1rkP. ; concentration of mind (comprising the performance of
Dha1ran2a1 , Dhya1na , and Sama1dhi , or the last three stages in
Yoga) Yogas. Sarvad. ; effort , exertion (%{A4} , with great
difficulty ') MBh. ; suppression i.e. destruction (of the world)
Pur. ; N. of a son of Dhu1mra7ksha (and father of Kr2is3a7s3va)
BhP. ; %{-dhana} mfn. rich in self-restraint MBh. ; %{-puNya-
tIrtha}
mfn. having restraint for a holy place of pilgrimage MBh. ; %{-
vat}
mfn. self-controlled , parsimonious , economical Katha1s. ; %{-
mAgni} m. the fire of abstinence Bhag. ; %{-mA7mbhas} n. the flood
of water at the end of the world BhP.
I might add that I'm so pragmatic it doesn't bother me too
much if I've misunderstood that suutra. Be it as it may,
it's interesting to do Patañjali style saMyama (starting
with desha-bandha of citta) on naasika-
antar-madhya, or thereabouts. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: authfriend wrote, Could it have been what MMY calls witnessing, a sense of the separation of the Self and activity? That's *supposed* to be a sign of the beginning of the first stage of enlightenment in MMY's formulation, cosmic consciousness (which is defined as 24-hour- a-day permanent witnessing during waking, dreaming, and deep sleep). He also notes (in his Gita commentary) that it can be a disconcerting, disorienting experience at first if you don't have an intellectual framework for it. Interesting that you ask that. For many years I would have been content to call it witnessing and interpreted it as a good thing according to MMY's framework. There is another experience, however, quite different than what I am describing that I would now use the term witnessing for. And I have heard others (not TMers) use witnessing for that experience -- it's the experience of the absence of a doer, when for a period only the Witness remains. That's very different from what I am now calling dissociation. For all I know MMY may have used the term witnessing for what I am calling dissociation, and at present I don't find that state to be one that I wish to have grow in my life. I no longer feel that MMY's descriptions of states of consciousness have any value for me. I don't hold MMY up to be an authority on spiritual development -- at least for me. My whole conceptual framework for my spiritual development is so completely different, it's like being in another universe from MMY. I'm not interested in feeling separate from activity in that way. When I stopped meditating regularly, I felt much more fully present to everything I experienced -- the separation disappeared as it were. I felt more integrated with everyone and everything around me, as if a veil had been removed. It could be some shift in me that was simply a coincidence with stopping TM, who knows, but now that I think about it what I had always interpreted as witnessing is not something that I now see as a desirable state.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of abutilon108 Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 5:04 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington I even explored injecting om following Rick's posts that he uses om as a mantra. Not exclusively. Om is the first syllable, but there’s quite a bit more to it. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.9/1295 - Release Date: 2/23/2008 9:35 PM
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Curtis said, At first I sort of resisted using a mantra since I do experience a similar state without one once I close my eyes and let silence dominate my attention. When I close my eyes to meditate, I am never aware of the mantra. I just fall into a deep state (interesting to try to describe without using a word like transcend.) Right now to describe it freshly, I'd say it's as if my attention detaches from thoughts, feelings and so on. I've been trying to investigate what is actually happening, without applying the concepts we got from MMY about what is happening. In any case, I find it very restful and that's the main reason I do it when I do. It has nothing to do with spiritual development for me anymore. As I've explored, sometimes I've consciously introduced the mantra to see what the experience is. It seems like an artificial overlay to inject it. I can easily go to MMY's words, the checking notes,etc. for a movement explanation of that, and explain that the mantra as become very subtle or that I am transcending and the mantra is no longer present. If transcending is, in fact, a useful description of what happens, then it could be said that the vehicle of the mantra has been left behind. If that's so, would it even matter which mantra I started out with (last time it was an advanced technique mantra)? I even explored injecting om following Rick's posts that he uses om as a mantra. That's been interesting. Seems to produce a quality of light and blissfulness. Sorry if I'm rambling. This has been on my mind of late for some reason. What really is the TM practice?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The only thing is Card, saMyama in the Kashmir Shaivite system of
meditation has a different meaning than in the YS/yoga-darshana.
I
believe the last acharya of that tradition, Sw. Lakshman Joo
explains
this in his commentary on the SS.
Is it perhaps any one of these mentioned by Monier-Williams:
saMyama m. holding together , restraint , control , (esp.) control
of the senses , self-control Mn. MBh. c. ; tying up (the hair)
Sa1h. ; binding , fettering VarBr2S. ; closing (of the eyes)
Ma1rkP. ; concentration of mind (comprising the performance of
Dha1ran2a1 , Dhya1na , and Sama1dhi , or the last three stages in
Yoga) Yogas. Sarvad. ; effort , exertion (%{A4} , with great
difficulty ') MBh. ; suppression i.e. destruction (of the world)
Pur. ; N. of a son of Dhu1mra7ksha (and father of Kr2is3a7s3va)
BhP. ; %{-dhana} mfn. rich in self-restraint MBh. ; %{-puNya-tIrtha}
mfn. having restraint for a holy place of pilgrimage MBh. ; %{-vat}
mfn. self-controlled , parsimonious , economical Katha1s. ; %{-
mAgni} m. the fire of abstinence Bhag. ; %{-mA7mbhas} n. the flood
of water at the end of the world BhP.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just don't think that it has all been figured out hundreds of years ago in traditional religious cultures. I'm wondering how much benefit can actually be derived from tradition? How accurate is anything that is passed down for generations? And besides, why aren't our own discoveries in consciousness just a valid as those made thousands of years ago? I feel ultimately we are our own authority. If we name someone else as our authority, we are still making a judgment that they are right. We ultimately have only our own perceptions and experiences to rely on. Or so it seems to me, at this moment...
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, I've had two different experiences -- one which I now call witnessing and the other which I call dissociation. I'm trying to come up with how to describe them, partly to answer your question but also to clarify them in my own mind. I don't have time now and have to go offline, but will mull it over and get back on this when I can. I've heard that description of witnessing in the TM context; seems to me it's the same thing as separation of Self and activity--the small-s self, the doer in ordinary waking state, being identified with activity, while the Self just witnesses the doing without identifying with it. That's very different from what I am now calling dissociation. I assume you've had them both, then, right? Can you describe the difference between the two? (Only if you feel like it; I'm just curious.)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
Could it have been what MMY calls witnessing, a sense of the separation of the Self and activity? That's *supposed* to be a sign of the beginning of the first stage of enlightenment in MMY's formulation, cosmic consciousness (which is defined as 24-hour- a-day permanent witnessing during waking, dreaming, and deep sleep). He also notes (in his Gita commentary) that it can be a disconcerting, disorienting experience at first if you don't have an intellectual framework for it. This is where I disagree with Maharishi's traditional interpretation of the value of this experience. I think he takes these useful states too far. For example witnessing sleep in a nap seems very restful and efficient. Witnessing sleep at night doesn't seem as restful. Witnessing in activity is not my preferred state to interact with the world. It isn't even my preferred style of functioning with my own mind and emotions. This is a fundamental difference of opinion I have with Maharishi concerning its value for a person's life. It comes at a cost. You kind of have to buy into his whole perspective on life to think of it as a step of higher consciousness, which is a step I am not taking. That said, I am not sure I completely buy into seeing states of dissociation as a negative thing which some modern physiologists seem to think. I think they are useful mental options but you have to gage for yourself how far you want to take it. abutilon108 has been adding a lot to this conversation with his experience. I also had the experience of a value to my stopping meditation 18 years ago. I had taken the state too far for me. Since I am viewing it in a purely secular way I am not using a spiritual map for its value, just my own experience. I used to think that I had done enough meditation to last me a lifetime! But now I am opened to a value in short doses. At least that is how I feel today. I believe that these states have a value. I just don't think that it has all been figured out hundreds of years ago in traditional religious cultures. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, abutilon108 abutilon108@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: Curtis, you said That said, I do feel an increase of slight dissociation (not meant as a pejorative) and I am still evaluating the pros and cons of this alteration. I am not assuming that it is either positive or negative so far, and I suspect that it is a matter of degree. I do hope you'll follow up later on with what you experience. I was feeling some dissociation when I was still meditating regularly, and the disappearance of this when I stopped was very welcome. There was a sense of separation that disappeared, and the experience of my interface with life felt more seamless, if that makes sense. I have a friend who also mentioned dissociation, and I've wondered about that a lot. Could it have been what MMY calls witnessing, a sense of the separation of the Self and activity? That's *supposed* to be a sign of the beginning of the first stage of enlightenment in MMY's formulation, cosmic consciousness (which is defined as 24-hour- a-day permanent witnessing during waking, dreaming, and deep sleep). He also notes (in his Gita commentary) that it can be a disconcerting, disorienting experience at first if you don't have an intellectual framework for it.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Witnessing in activity is not my preferred state to interact with the world. It isn't even my preferred style of functioning with my own mind and emotions. This is a fundamental difference of opinion I have with Maharishi concerning its value for a person's life. It comes at a cost. My hut! My hut! I had that type of witnessing once while I was resting after program. It felt as if all meaning and color and interest had gone out of life. There was just the Self, and it wasn't connected to anything (nor was there any bliss). Didn't last long, but it was very distinct and not pleasant at all. I've had other witnessing experiences during activity when I felt this *enormous* sense of relief that I was no longer stuck in the damn hut. It was only being *out* of the hut that made me realize how limiting it was.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, abutilon108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: authfriend wrote, Could it have been what MMY calls witnessing, a sense of the separation of the Self and activity? That's *supposed* to be a sign of the beginning of the first stage of enlightenment in MMY's formulation, cosmic consciousness (which is defined as 24-hour- a-day permanent witnessing during waking, dreaming, and deep sleep). He also notes (in his Gita commentary) that it can be a disconcerting, disorienting experience at first if you don't have an intellectual framework for it. Interesting that you ask that. For many years I would have been content to call it witnessing and interpreted it as a good thing according to MMY's framework. There is another experience, however, quite different than what I am describing that I would now use the term witnessing for. And I have heard others (not TMers) use witnessing for that experience -- it's the experience of the absence of a doer, when for a period only the Witness remains. I've heard that description of witnessing in the TM context; seems to me it's the same thing as separation of Self and activity--the small-s self, the doer in ordinary waking state, being identified with activity, while the Self just witnesses the doing without identifying with it. That's very different from what I am now calling dissociation. I assume you've had them both, then, right? Can you describe the difference between the two? (Only if you feel like it; I'm just curious.)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
Cardemaister, I really appreciate your attitude about all this
stuff; you're a true spiritual scientist, willing to explore
different variations on the techniques you've been taught. That
type of research is really valuable. I really applaud your positive
contributions here, thank you very much.
Marek
**
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister no_reply@
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
The only thing is Card, saMyama in the Kashmir Shaivite system
of
meditation has a different meaning than in the YS/yoga-
darshana.
I
believe the last acharya of that tradition, Sw. Lakshman Joo
explains
this in his commentary on the SS.
Is it perhaps any one of these mentioned by Monier-Williams:
saMyama m. holding together , restraint , control , (esp.)
control
of the senses , self-control Mn. MBh. c. ; tying up (the hair)
Sa1h. ; binding , fettering VarBr2S. ; closing (of the eyes)
Ma1rkP. ; concentration of mind (comprising the performance of
Dha1ran2a1 , Dhya1na , and Sama1dhi , or the last three stages
in
Yoga) Yogas. Sarvad. ; effort , exertion (%{A4} , with great
difficulty ') MBh. ; suppression i.e. destruction (of the
world)
Pur. ; N. of a son of Dhu1mra7ksha (and father of Kr2is3a7s3va)
BhP. ; %{-dhana} mfn. rich in self-restraint MBh. ; %{-puNya-
tIrtha}
mfn. having restraint for a holy place of pilgrimage MBh. ; %{-
vat}
mfn. self-controlled , parsimonious , economical Katha1s. ; %{-
mAgni} m. the fire of abstinence Bhag. ; %{-mA7mbhas} n. the
flood
of water at the end of the world BhP.
I might add that I'm so pragmatic it doesn't bother me too
much if I've misunderstood that suutra. Be it as it may,
it's interesting to do Patañjali style saMyama (starting
with desha-bandha of citta) on naasika-
antar-madhya, or thereabouts. :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
The worst part of dying is the signature. In many cases, one dies due to how well they lived. But it would be aweful to die in a terribly funny way. For instance I have this parrot I rescued that likes to bite. So I still carry it on my shoulders sometimes. I think you see where I'm going with this. I mean. It would suck totally to die by parrot bite on the jugular. So much for a dignified ending. Even your lonesome spouse would laugh every time they thought of your death. How fucked is that? Sure not much difference from sex, but one isn't dead, yet, at least. What to do with a killer parrot? Write a TV series? - Original Message - From: Angela Mailander [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 2:54 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington I've noticed the same thing whenever I've worked with the dying. I've also noticed that sometimes there is amazing grace and the dying person drops being the person and becomes radiant loving and light. Have you seen that? My mother was the queen bitch from hell, and caring for her during her last eight years of life (she was utterly paralyzed) was maha tapas for me but well worth it in the end as she dropped her personhood and became pure love. --- abutilon108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: People's self awareness and capacity for genuine introspection is a completely separate development from any spiritual practice. Some people develop it and some do not. (New improved by FFL version) Doesn't seem to me that the development of these has anything to do with spiritual practice. I like that spiritual is in quotes, because that term can mean so many different things. Most of my life I thought I was so spiritual. I'd go so far as to say I was a spiritual snob. The longer I live, and the less relevant to a full life and living most spiritual concepts and practices seem to me, the more I discover people whose lives and characters really inspire me who have never done any so-called spiritual practice. I remember once when I was working in a hospice program. I worked with a patient (dying man) who had been involved in spiritual pursuits for most of his life. He had put a lot of attention on spirituality. Yet, of all the people I'd worked with, he had the most fear of losing control and dying. His brother would come to visit and in the course of conversation would refer to the patient as the spiritual one, stating that he himself wasn't particularly spiritual. What struck me, however, was that this brother (the non-spiritual one) showed a tremendous capacity for compassion and did a great deal of giving in his life. He was a successful man materially and had a good family life. In every way, he seemed to represent what most people think would be some of the fruits of spiritual practice. Enjoyed the line of thinking in the rest of you post, BTW. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
A TV series about a killer parrot would be totally awesome. Go for it. --- Kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The worst part of dying is the signature. In many cases, one dies due to how well they lived. But it would be aweful to die in a terribly funny way. For instance I have this parrot I rescued that likes to bite. So I still carry it on my shoulders sometimes. I think you see where I'm going with this. I mean. It would suck totally to die by parrot bite on the jugular. So much for a dignified ending. Even your lonesome spouse would laugh every time they thought of your death. How fucked is that? Sure not much difference from sex, but one isn't dead, yet, at least. What to do with a killer parrot? Write a TV series? - Original Message - From: Angela Mailander [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 2:54 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington I've noticed the same thing whenever I've worked with the dying. I've also noticed that sometimes there is amazing grace and the dying person drops being the person and becomes radiant loving and light. Have you seen that? My mother was the queen bitch from hell, and caring for her during her last eight years of life (she was utterly paralyzed) was maha tapas for me but well worth it in the end as she dropped her personhood and became pure love. --- abutilon108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: People's self awareness and capacity for genuine introspection is a completely separate development from any spiritual practice. Some people develop it and some do not. (New improved by FFL version) Doesn't seem to me that the development of these has anything to do with spiritual practice. I like that spiritual is in quotes, because that term can mean so many different things. Most of my life I thought I was so spiritual. I'd go so far as to say I was a spiritual snob. The longer I live, and the less relevant to a full life and living most spiritual concepts and practices seem to me, the more I discover people whose lives and characters really inspire me who have never done any so-called spiritual practice. I remember once when I was working in a hospice program. I worked with a patient (dying man) who had been involved in spiritual pursuits for most of his life. He had put a lot of attention on spirituality. Yet, of all the people I'd worked with, he had the most fear of losing control and dying. His brother would come to visit and in the course of conversation would refer to the patient as the spiritual one, stating that he himself wasn't particularly spiritual. What struck me, however, was that this brother (the non-spiritual one) showed a tremendous capacity for compassion and did a great deal of giving in his life. He was a successful man materially and had a good family life. In every way, he seemed to represent what most people think would be some of the fruits of spiritual practice. Enjoyed the line of thinking in the rest of you post, BTW. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
I absolutely hated witnessing deep sleep when it first started to happen to me, and I hated it for years. I wanted the restfulness of oblivion back. Well, it didn't come back exactly, but it somehow gradually turned into the ocean of silence and bliss they advertise in the tradition. I love it now and can totally see not minding at all to remain in that state for eternities. dreams come, but when they do, they're clear and interesting. Witnessing changed over the years, but to describe it would take some doing, so not this minute, but I'm very interested in other people's experiences. --- curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could it have been what MMY calls witnessing, a sense of the separation of the Self and activity? That's *supposed* to be a sign of the beginning of the first stage of enlightenment in MMY's formulation, cosmic consciousness (which is defined as 24-hour- a-day permanent witnessing during waking, dreaming, and deep sleep). He also notes (in his Gita commentary) that it can be a disconcerting, disorienting experience at first if you don't have an intellectual framework for it. This is where I disagree with Maharishi's traditional interpretation of the value of this experience. I think he takes these useful states too far. For example witnessing sleep in a nap seems very restful and efficient. Witnessing sleep at night doesn't seem as restful. Witnessing in activity is not my preferred state to interact with the world. It isn't even my preferred style of functioning with my own mind and emotions. This is a fundamental difference of opinion I have with Maharishi concerning its value for a person's life. It comes at a cost. You kind of have to buy into his whole perspective on life to think of it as a step of higher consciousness, which is a step I am not taking. That said, I am not sure I completely buy into seeing states of dissociation as a negative thing which some modern physiologists seem to think. I think they are useful mental options but you have to gage for yourself how far you want to take it. abutilon108 has been adding a lot to this conversation with his experience. I also had the experience of a value to my stopping meditation 18 years ago. I had taken the state too far for me. Since I am viewing it in a purely secular way I am not using a spiritual map for its value, just my own experience. I used to think that I had done enough meditation to last me a lifetime! But now I am opened to a value in short doses. At least that is how I feel today. I believe that these states have a value. I just don't think that it has all been figured out hundreds of years ago in traditional religious cultures. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, abutilon108 abutilon108@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: Curtis, you said That said, I do feel an increase of slight dissociation (not meant as a pejorative) and I am still evaluating the pros and cons of this alteration. I am not assuming that it is either positive or negative so far, and I suspect that it is a matter of degree. I do hope you'll follow up later on with what you experience. I was feeling some dissociation when I was still meditating regularly, and the disappearance of this when I stopped was very welcome. There was a sense of separation that disappeared, and the experience of my interface with life felt more seamless, if that makes sense. I have a friend who also mentioned dissociation, and I've wondered about that a lot. Could it have been what MMY calls witnessing, a sense of the separation of the Self and activity? That's *supposed* to be a sign of the beginning of the first stage of enlightenment in MMY's formulation, cosmic consciousness (which is defined as 24-hour- a-day permanent witnessing during waking, dreaming, and deep sleep). He also notes (in his Gita commentary) that it can be a disconcerting, disorienting experience at first if you don't have an intellectual framework for it. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
On Feb 24, 2008, at 6:30 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote: This is where I disagree with Maharishi's traditional interpretation of the value of this experience. I think he takes these useful states too far. For example witnessing sleep in a nap seems very restful and efficient. Witnessing sleep at night doesn't seem as restful. Witnessing in activity is not my preferred state to interact with the world. It isn't even my preferred style of functioning with my own mind and emotions. This is a fundamental difference of opinion I have with Maharishi concerning its value for a person's life. It comes at a cost. You kind of have to buy into his whole perspective on life to think of it as a step of higher consciousness, which is a step I am not taking. That said, I am not sure I completely buy into seeing states of dissociation as a negative thing which some modern physiologists seem to think. I think they are useful mental options but you have to gage for yourself how far you want to take it. One of the traditional benefits of witnessing during deep sleep--and one of it's hallmarks in my own experience (and what differentiates it from dissociative or imagined states)--is the extreme rest one gets. After all, it's through witnessing during sleep that yogis are able to sleep only a couple of hours. For me it's completely rejuvenating, I awake feeling incredibly rested and clear. Yogis claim it's the only style of sleep that actually allows the subconscious to rest. If so, what an incredible benefit!
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
Curtis writes snipped: At first I sort of resisted using a mantra since I do experience a similar state without one once I close my eyes and let silence dominate my attention. I didn't want to link the experience to my past practice to hopefully avoid some of the conceptual baggage. This worked out well for a while, but then the old engine started up and I had to decide if I cared enough to actively stop it. I decided around the time Maharishi died that this was kind of silly. TM may not be the only way to gain a state of meditation, but it clearly is the one I have put the time into. TomT: I have had the experience of seeing/knowing that all of the mantras/sutras/advanced techniques I was ever taught have become part of the vibratory quality of my own DNA. I was meditating one day and began to see each of the tools that were given and practiced had moved into and become part of my base DNA and it was a way of knowing my self. It was kind of funny as I am a pretty pure Pitta guy so most of my experiences are of the visual nature. This one day I was looking for a long time at something I did not understand until it was an Ah Ha moment and then it was this is my DNA. From that it was a way of seeing where and how each of these tools had been placed. Interesting and revealing and then the words MMY once said made sense to me. This stuff is very sticky. If we don't practice it it runs itself like a subroutine on the cellular level. That and a buck will get you a small cup of coffee. Tom
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
If we don't practice it it runs itself like a subroutine on the cellular level. That and a buck will get you a small cup of coffee. Tom Not in my neighborhood! --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Curtis writes snipped: At first I sort of resisted using a mantra since I do experience a similar state without one once I close my eyes and let silence dominate my attention. I didn't want to link the experience to my past practice to hopefully avoid some of the conceptual baggage. This worked out well for a while, but then the old engine started up and I had to decide if I cared enough to actively stop it. I decided around the time Maharishi died that this was kind of silly. TM may not be the only way to gain a state of meditation, but it clearly is the one I have put the time into. TomT: I have had the experience of seeing/knowing that all of the mantras/sutras/advanced techniques I was ever taught have become part of the vibratory quality of my own DNA. I was meditating one day and began to see each of the tools that were given and practiced had moved into and become part of my base DNA and it was a way of knowing my self. It was kind of funny as I am a pretty pure Pitta guy so most of my experiences are of the visual nature. This one day I was looking for a long time at something I did not understand until it was an Ah Ha moment and then it was this is my DNA. From that it was a way of seeing where and how each of these tools had been placed. Interesting and revealing and then the words MMY once said made sense to me. This stuff is very sticky. If we don't practice it it runs itself like a subroutine on the cellular level. That and a buck will get you a small cup of coffee. Tom
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
On Feb 24, 2008, at 6:30 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote: This is where I disagree with Maharishi's traditional interpretation of the value of this experience. I think he takes these useful states too far. For example witnessing sleep in a nap seems very restful and efficient. Witnessing sleep at night doesn't seem as restful. Witnessing in activity is not my preferred state to interact with the world. It isn't even my preferred style of functioning with my own mind and emotions. This is a fundamental difference of opinion I have with Maharishi concerning its value for a person's life. It comes at a cost. You kind of have to buy into his whole perspective on life to think of it as a step of higher consciousness, which is a step I am not taking. Okay, I haven't really been following this discussion, but I think one benefit of standing outside the TMO is that there is really no expectation of certain experiences. If witnessing is a real phenomenom it's bound to develop whether or not we believe in it, right? I certainly don't look for it or even desire it, or even experience it for that matter. But I certainly am not going to prejudice my spiritual growth by ruling out the possiblility of certain experiences. Are you?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
(snip) One of the traditional benefits of witnessing during deep sleep-- and one of it's hallmarks in my own experience (and what differentiates it from dissociative or imagined states)--is the extreme rest one gets. After all, it's through witnessing during sleep that yogis are able to sleep only a couple of hours. For me it's completely rejuvenating, I awake feeling incredibly rested and clear. Yogis claim it's the only style of sleep that actually allows the subconscious to rest. If so, what an incredible benefit! Yes, this is good... The thing is, for me, it's becomes more and more, of the ability to exprience, what I would call, soul force, or soul energy... At first, witnessing is a bit uncomfortable, because experience this soul energy, becoming self-aware, of itself- the physiology will need to step-up to this higher energy, or become accustomed to the higher vibration of the soul. As more and more people, begin to experience something, the easier it is for the whole human race to experience. For me, one of the examples of this accellerated group consciousness, is the candidacy of Barack Obama, and evangelistic message of evolution, much like the message of Socrates, or the inclusive politics of Unity Consciousness...
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, itsstevemartin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am a long time meditator and just subscribed to this group. What kind of group is this? Pro TM, anti TM,a little of both. A reflection of the town meditators. Uncensored talk. I have a flood of emails to my inbox now and find some of the emails interesting about the spiritual but am deciding if I should unsubscribe. Could I have an option of being a member and not having the emails to my inbox? Thanks, Steve Yes...it will be a pain in the ass if you continue with the emails-in- your-inbox option. You can choose to just see them, as I do, on the FFL Yahoo! group page (go into your personal profile, I think, and change the option). Pro TM, anti TM, a little of both pretty much sums this group up.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
Thanks to all of you who have responded. I think I am going to like this group. I love your honesty. I have always felt out of place not quite Christian, not quite Hindu raised a southern Baptist and have attended the Episcopalian Church some though its not quite right either. All I know is I am a die hard TM'er with little or no contact over my 37 years of meditation and have had and continue to have the most amazing paradigm changing experiences with the technique. I am somewhat disenfranchised with the constraints of the TM Movement group but cannot deny the beauty and power of my own experiences. Steve Martin of Wilmington NC --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, itsstevemartin itsstevemartin@ wrote: I am a long time meditator and just subscribed to this group. What kind of group is this? Pro TM, anti TM,a little of both. A reflection of the town meditators. Uncensored talk. I have a flood of emails to my inbox now and find some of the emails interesting about the spiritual but am deciding if I should unsubscribe. Could I have an option of being a member and not having the emails to my inbox? Thanks, Steve Yes...it will be a pain in the ass if you continue with the emails-in- your-inbox option. You can choose to just see them, as I do, on the FFL Yahoo! group page (go into your personal profile, I think, and change the option). Pro TM, anti TM, a little of both pretty much sums this group up.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, itsstevemartin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks to all of you who have responded. I think I am going to like this group. I love your honesty. I have always felt out of place not quite Christian, not quite Hindu raised a southern Baptist and have attended the Episcopalian Church some though its not quite right either. All I know is I am a die hard TM'er with little or no contact over my 37 years of meditation and have had and continue to have the most amazing paradigm changing experiences with the technique. I am somewhat disenfranchised with the constraints of the TM Movement group but cannot deny the beauty and power of my own experiences. Steve Martin of Wilmington NC Jeez, you'll be fitting in quite nicely... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, itsstevemartin itsstevemartin@ wrote: I am a long time meditator and just subscribed to this group. What kind of group is this? Pro TM, anti TM,a little of both. A reflection of the town meditators. Uncensored talk. I have a flood of emails to my inbox now and find some of the emails interesting about the spiritual but am deciding if I should unsubscribe. Could I have an option of being a member and not having the emails to my inbox? Thanks, Steve Yes...it will be a pain in the ass if you continue with the emails-in- your-inbox option. You can choose to just see them, as I do, on the FFL Yahoo! group page (go into your personal profile, I think, and change the option). Pro TM, anti TM, a little of both pretty much sums this group up.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
I have had absolutely amazing experiences with the sidhis. I encourage you to return to the program. I will post more. When I see sometimes all the hookum I read about and the chaos I see sometimes associated with the movement I would find it easy to believe the negative. Here is the 3rd reading of my experiences of that respite. They would not let me talk about past experiences on the course. Only about what I got on the course. Where I am now is going beyond beneath thought and just sitting in awareness. I love it. I go to bed at 9:00pm and naturally wake up between 3 and 4 am. I walk my dog and then settle into a program that lasts from about 4 to 6:30am. I am at work at 7:30am. I absolutely love waking up in the morning and doing my long program. Here is a post o f my 3rd reading during my 6 week respite at MUM June/July 07. Joyce Carol Oates asks in her book, Middle Aged What is the meaning of life? What is the meaning of your life? Is there a difference? The meaning of my life is bliss, and I am, with help, steadily closing that difference. I am on the last of my 6 week respite here. I used to say meditations were almost, always pleasant, but now I say, they are almost, always blissful. Mostly the first set of sutras in the beginning, and now, the entire program is bliss becoming blissful. I sit in bliss, and time goes. In activity, I experience some bliss during the day, and by bedtime, it has become more. It has become blissful. I wake up in bliss. My program has changed in so many ways, but so has my knowledge. I did not know before I came here that: totality, the transcendent, wholeness, the unmanifest, Brahm, emptiness, nothingness, and your own nature are bliss. Now I know when I experience bliss, I am close to home, and home is where I need to be. I just follow the bliss. Follow the bliss. I am an expression of bliss. The whole thing is about the bliss, and the clearer my intellectual understanding becomes, the more effective my program becomes; that along with the power of group practice, good diet and rest. Good diet. I feel after eating this wonderful food at MUM, organic, fresh, beautifully prepared and seasoned, I now know what good food is; hats off to the chef. What wonderful food I have had here; what wonderful food, truly wonderful. Last Saturday it was a little cool, and the rain fell in buckets, torrents beating the Utopia Hall tin roof all morning, and I, wrapped in my cotton hooded parker, and over this, a soft cotton blanket pulled to my chin heated me to toast as I sat deep in program, deep in bliss. It was wonderful, wonderful. All I was missing were my footy pajamas, and my Teddy Bear. The experience was of innocence, and that is what has stood out most of all here in this place is your innocence. Like Winnie the Pooh in the Hundred Acer Forest, I see each Sidha going about their day in gentleness, and innocence. I watch in breathless wonder. This is an innocent place. This is a gentle place. A community becoming, innocence becoming. I can see it in your eyes. I can see it in your walk, your breath, your talk. I can see it in the eyes of those to whom you speak. My heart is a garden, and your words the rain. Jai Guru Dev Steve Martin --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Beautiful experiences Steve. I really appreciate your posting them, and am glad you joined us. Cool that that voice told you how to do the sutras right. I did them for about 25 years and never really had any results I always preferred just plain meditating but I've often thought that if I ever get to a place where I feel my state of consciousness has shifted radically, I might try them again. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.9/1294 - Release Date: 2/22/2008 6:39 PM
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Beautiful experiences Steve. I really appreciate your posting them, and am glad you joined us. Cool that that voice told you how to do the sutras right. I did them for about 25 years and never really had any results I always preferred just plain meditating but I've often thought that if I ever get to a place where I feel my state of consciousness has shifted radically, I might try them again. Why bother, Rick, the ultimate goal is to realize who you are, not to have beautiful, blissful experiences. You are NOT your experiences. Beautiful, blissful experiences, like the Siddhis, if clung to, for most are an obstacle. Amma says genuine realization that you are NOT your body is enlightenment. Your body consists of five sheaths, the last one being Ananda( Bliss ) which is the hardest to give up. It can feed your spiritual ego and end up like M and his gang of ??? Stick with Amma and read Her Awaken Children Vol 7 Boy, Rick, it certainly sounds like you are too easily swayed by a little BLISS. Sure for a few minutes, I too enjoyed Steve's amazing story. And I feel there is great hope for him, because of his heart experience. But let's wait and see where the Self guides him. In my case, the Self guided me away from M-ego-nonsense and to Amma a genuine Mahatma free of ego. God Bless, anatol
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington responds to amarnath who enjoys Ammachi
Hi Steve, I communicated with you OFFLINE which is what we do sometimes when we feel the need to do so. Why did you feel the need to post this to the group? Not that I mind that much. My heart is an OPEN BOOK, more or less. Perhaps, I misjudged. I have been on the path as you for 37 years. And tried to share what I feel is important to know about the ultimate goal. God Bless You, anatol/amarnath
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington responds to amarnath who enjoys Ammachi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, amarnath [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Steve, I communicated with you OFFLINE which is what we do sometimes when we feel the need to do so. Why did you feel the need to post this to the group? It's always a good idea, when you're communicating privately with someone with whom you also participate in a public forum, to put OFFLIST in your subject heading and begin your email message with This is PRIVATE EMAIL. If you would really rather not have the communication made public, you could add, Not to be shared with the group, please. Sometimes a recipient may not notice that the communication is private and may send their response to the group inadvertently. I've seen that happen more than once, in some cases to the great embarrassment of one or both parties to the exchange.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Steve Martin of Wilmington responds to amarnath who enjoys Ammachi
Thanks for the guideline. Fortunately in this case, no harm done. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, amarnath anatol_zinc@ wrote: Hi Steve, I communicated with you OFFLINE which is what we do sometimes when we feel the need to do so. Why did you feel the need to post this to the group? It's always a good idea, when you're communicating privately with someone with whom you also participate in a public forum, to put OFFLIST in your subject heading and begin your email message with This is PRIVATE EMAIL. If you would really rather not have the communication made public, you could add, Not to be shared with the group, please. Sometimes a recipient may not notice that the communication is private and may send their response to the group inadvertently. I've seen that happen more than once, in some cases to the great embarrassment of one or both parties to the exchange.
