Re: [FairfieldLife] The D Word
If doubt apears, it should not be considered the negation of faith, but as an element which was always and is always present in the act of faith. Existential doubt and faith are poles of the same reality, the state of ultimate concern. Paul Tillich, Dynamics of Faith (Perrienial Classics), p. 25. TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems to me, based on my reading here and on a number of other spiritual forums, that a lot can be learned about spiritual movements and about the spiritual seekers within them by how they respond to the D word -- DOUBT. In some spiritual movements and traditions, doubt is looked upon as a *healthy* thing. I remember meeting a Paulist (Catholic) priest who told me that within his order, no one was ever trusted with a position of power within the Church until after they'd gone through their own dark night of the soul and had some serious doubts about the Church and Christ and their relationships with both. Before they'd gone through that, they were looked upon as novices, newbies, buying whatever had been told to them without really ever questioning it, and in the process of questioning it, making it theirs. I've encountered other Eastern traditions in which doubt is also seen as a very natural thing, and actually encouraged. In face-to-face meetings with the spiritual teachers of these traditions, it is permitted and encouraged to ask ANYTHING, and to question ANY teaching or point of dogma. In one Tibetan tradition I know of, there is a system of formal debate in which students are regularly assigned the task of defending the very *opposite* of the dogma that they believe and have been told is correct. Interestingly, within ALL of these traditions, there is *no concept* of being declared anathema, of being told to leave the study or the movement. Compare and contrast to other spiritual traditions in which doubt is looked upon as a weakness, or as something that has to be hidden from the powers that be, or worst, can be grounds for excommunication, for being told that your doubt has no place in the movement in question, and that you should get the hell out and stay out and take your doubts with you. Being a lifelong doubter myself, it probably goes without saying that I'm happier with the former situation. :-) I can make a case for the latter approach, in which doubt is demonized and driven out of the gates of the monastery the moment it rears its ugly head, but I honestly believe that this approach is self-defeating, not to mention Self-defeating. I guess this is just another way of thanking Rick for creating a forum on which doubt is not only allowed, but encouraged, and treated as if it were a healthy and normal part of the spiritual path. Such forums are rare, and to be treasured. Earlier today I was told by some students of a former spiritual teacher of mine that I was essen- tially evil because I didn't buy the Party Line that all of the women students he slept with did so willingly, and that they all benefited from the experience. I was told this by students who have studiously avoided ever hearing any stories to the contrary; they have never talked to the women involved. I have. And so, do I have doubts that all of the guy's actions were appropriate? You betcha. It reminded me of reactions here when the same subject comes up with regard to Maharishi. There are people here who have *no problem* believing that Maharishi was human, and scored him some very human nookie along the Way, and who RESPECT HIM ANYWAY. Those are my kinda people, the ones who are unafraid to express their normal, everyday doubts, and who refuse to be intimidated into hiding them. High five all around to those kinda people from me. You make the spiritual path worth walking. - TV dinner still cooling? Check out Tonight's Picks on Yahoo! TV.
[FairfieldLife] The D Word
It seems to me, based on my reading here and on a number of other spiritual forums, that a lot can be learned about spiritual movements and about the spiritual seekers within them by how they respond to the D word -- DOUBT. In some spiritual movements and traditions, doubt is looked upon as a *healthy* thing. I remember meeting a Paulist (Catholic) priest who told me that within his order, no one was ever trusted with a position of power within the Church until after they'd gone through their own dark night of the soul and had some serious doubts about the Church and Christ and their relationships with both. Before they'd gone through that, they were looked upon as novices, newbies, buying whatever had been told to them without really ever questioning it, and in the process of questioning it, making it theirs. I've encountered other Eastern traditions in which doubt is also seen as a very natural thing, and actually encouraged. In face-to-face meetings with the spiritual teachers of these traditions, it is permitted and encouraged to ask ANYTHING, and to question ANY teaching or point of dogma. In one Tibetan tradition I know of, there is a system of formal debate in which students are regularly assigned the task of defending the very *opposite* of the dogma that they believe and have been told is correct. Interestingly, within ALL of these traditions, there is *no concept* of being declared anathema, of being told to leave the study or the movement. Compare and contrast to other spiritual traditions in which doubt is looked upon as a weakness, or as something that has to be hidden from the powers that be, or worst, can be grounds for excommunication, for being told that your doubt has no place in the movement in question, and that you should get the hell out and stay out and take your doubts with you. Being a lifelong doubter myself, it probably goes without saying that I'm happier with the former situation. :-) I can make a case for the latter approach, in which doubt is demonized and driven out of the gates of the monastery the moment it rears its ugly head, but I honestly believe that this approach is self-defeating, not to mention Self-defeating. I guess this is just another way of thanking Rick for creating a forum on which doubt is not only allowed, but encouraged, and treated as if it were a healthy and normal part of the spiritual path. Such forums are rare, and to be treasured. Earlier today I was told by some students of a former spiritual teacher of mine that I was essen- tially evil because I didn't buy the Party Line that all of the women students he slept with did so willingly, and that they all benefited from the experience. I was told this by students who have studiously avoided ever hearing any stories to the contrary; they have never talked to the women involved. I have. And so, do I have doubts that all of the guy's actions were appropriate? You betcha. It reminded me of reactions here when the same subject comes up with regard to Maharishi. There are people here who have *no problem* believing that Maharishi was human, and scored him some very human nookie along the Way, and who RESPECT HIM ANYWAY. Those are my kinda people, the ones who are unafraid to express their normal, everyday doubts, and who refuse to be intimidated into hiding them. High five all around to those kinda people from me. You make the spiritual path worth walking.
RE: [FairfieldLife] The D Word
I've heard MMY go both ways on the doubt issue. In the earlier days, such as Poland Spring and Mallorca, he said to get up on the mike and express your doubts - not suppress them and assume they are resolved. Later on, he referred to doubt as a dry rot and said it was better to doubt the doubts. This was said with reference to one's experiences, but it also seems to have applied to doubts about the Movement. A few years ago at least half a dozen MUM faculty were purged for somewhat too free in their thinking, expressing doubts about policies and procedures.
Re: [FairfieldLife] The D Word
In a message dated 4/11/2007 10:27:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I’ve heard MMY go both ways on the doubt issue. In the earlier days, such as Poland Spring and Mallorca, he said to get up on the mike and express your doubts – not suppress them and assume they are resolved. Later on, he referred to doubt as a dry rot and said it was better to doubt the doubts. This was said with reference to one’s experiences, but it also seems to have applied to doubts about the Movement. A few years ago at least half a dozen MUM faculty were purged for somewhat too free in their thinking, expressing doubts about policies and procedures. Rick, I recently spoke with a close friend of Dr. David Orme Johnson. He was told to leave the faculty. His friend did not know for what reasons. This is just another example of why you and others have moved on to other ways of continuing your spiritual journey and at the same time still hanging on to some respect for MMY and what he gave to us. The reason why I am mentioning it is the information seems to connect with your information posted. Lsoma. ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
