[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-10-02 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 snip
   The goal is inherent in the system..
  
  'System' means 'intelligence'.
 
 Aieee, no.  It can be used that way, but it can
 also be used without any implication of intelligence.

All systems have intelligence related to them in some way. 
  However,
is the intelligence imposing order during its analysis of 
the system, or did an intelligence impose order in the 
 *design* 
  of 
the system?
   
   Gee, I wouldn't say order being imposed on a system
   during analysis by an intelligence means the system
   *itself* has intelligence.  What about systems that
   have never been analyzed by an intelligence?  What
   intelligence do they have related to them (if you
   exclude a designing intelligence)?
   
   System just means stuff that interacts in a more
   or less regular way.
  
  But of all the itneractions and materials and stuff that exist, 
YOU 
  pick and chose what defines the system.
 
 Sure, but that still doesn't mean the system itself
 has intelligence.
 

Didn't say that. Said that there is intelligence associated with any 
and all systems. Of all the possible bits and pieces of matter and 
energy in the universe in all thepossible subsets of them, we chose 
to talk about things like all living things on Earth. Why?


  Consider the water molecules of all the predators on earth and 
  within 3 feet in all directions from all of them,including those 
  within its prey and within neutral animals an plants. Would you 
  call those a system?
 
 I guess you could, but I'm not sure of the relevance to
 what I was saying.  Could you elaborate?

That's thepoint. It's an arbitrary collection. All collections of 
particles are arbitrary in one sense. In another, we chose which ones 
to include or exclude based on intellect.

 
 Or consider the system I suggested to Offworld, a
 complicated solar system in a distant galaxy that
 has never been observed by a sentient being.  How
 can there even be the intelligence related to the
 system via analysis?

What is a solar system?




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-10-02 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
  [...]
 Gee, I wouldn't say order being imposed on a system
 during analysis by an intelligence means the system
 *itself* has intelligence.  What about systems that
 have never been analyzed by an intelligence? .

Can you name one?
   
   Hypothetical, obviously.  Let's say a very
   complicated solar system in a distant galaxy
   that no sentient being has ever observed.
  
  You just defined the system ahead of time: solar system.
 
 I don't think that's relevant to my point,
 which was whether the system has inherent
 intelligence.

The system was devised by intelligence. You have a definition 
of solar system that you use. Why do you include or exclude 
membership in a system?

 
  What makes something part of OUR solar sytstem, rather than part
  of another?




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-10-02 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 snip
  The truth is every bit as much out there as it is in here.
 
 Is it? How do you know? (channelling Sparaig)
 
 :-)

I watch public access, of course.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-10-02 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 snip
  This goes to the Shrodinger cat thought experiment. ie. Is the cat 
  in the box dead or alive if no-one else sees it. It is therefore in 
  a neither dead nor alive state
  This thought experiment is nonsense because it assumes only hhigher 
  order animals (people) are observers, but all animals (and beyond ) 
  are observers, including the flees in the cats skin, and even the 
  parasites in its blood, it's very own cells as single celled 
  organisms, and its very own DNA. 
  Someone is always watching.everywhere. 
  Even a planet is observing (experiencing) as is the sun.
  The fallacy of Shrodinger's cat is as yet not known to the 
  scientific understanding on Earth
 
 Well, boy, you're right in line for a Nobel Prize,
 then, as soon as you make it known.

It's one proposed solution tothe paradox.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-10-02 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   wrote:
[Offworld wrote:] 
   [...]
  Gee, I wouldn't say order being imposed on a system
  during analysis by an intelligence means the system
  *itself* has intelligence.  What about systems that
  have never been analyzed by an intelligence? .
 
 Can you name one?

Hypothetical, obviously.  Let's say a very
complicated solar system in a distant galaxy
that no sentient being has ever observed.
   
   You just defined the system ahead of time: solar system.
  
  I don't think that's relevant to my point,
  which was whether the system has inherent
  intelligence.
 
 The system was devised by intelligence. You have a definition 
 of solar system that you use. Why do you include or exclude 
 membership in a system?

Yes, I see what you're saying, and I agree, but I
*still* don't think it's relevant to the question
of whether a system has *inherent* intelligence.

Years ago I had a knock-down, drag-out argument on
a quasi-scientific forum about whether it could be
said that an encyclopedia, say, contained information.
I maintained that it did not *inherently* contain
information; the distribution of particles of ink
on paper became information only when a sentient
being was looking at it.  Once the encyclopedia
was closed, what was inside was no longer information.

I forget now what the context was, but it made a
difference to whatever we had been discussing.  At
any rate, I think this is related to what you're
saying, i.e., there is no such thing as a system
without an intelligence to identify it as such by
isolating it from everything else.

Hmm, I suspect all this points in the direction of
Self-reference, but I'm not sure how to articulate it.
On the other hand, maybe it's only a matter of
definition of terms.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-10-02 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 [Offworld wrote:] 
[...]
   Gee, I wouldn't say order being imposed on a system
   during analysis by an intelligence means the system
   *itself* has intelligence.  What about systems that
   have never been analyzed by an intelligence? .
  
  Can you name one?
 
 Hypothetical, obviously.  Let's say a very
 complicated solar system in a distant galaxy
 that no sentient being has ever observed.

You just defined the system ahead of time: solar system.
   
   I don't think that's relevant to my point,
   which was whether the system has inherent
   intelligence.
  
  The system was devised by intelligence. You have a definition 
  of solar system that you use. Why do you include or exclude 
  membership in a system?
 
 Yes, I see what you're saying, and I agree, but I
 *still* don't think it's relevant to the question
 of whether a system has *inherent* intelligence.

Defining a system means that it has intelligence in the sense that 
the system is pre ordered.

 
 Years ago I had a knock-down, drag-out argument on
 a quasi-scientific forum about whether it could be
 said that an encyclopedia, say, contained information.
 I maintained that it did not *inherently* contain
 information; the distribution of particles of ink
 on paper became information only when a sentient
 being was looking at it.  Once the encyclopedia
 was closed, what was inside was no longer information.
 
 I forget now what the context was, but it made a
 difference to whatever we had been discussing.  At
 any rate, I think this is related to what you're
 saying, i.e., there is no such thing as a system
 without an intelligence to identify it as such by
 isolating it from everything else.
 
 Hmm, I suspect all this points in the direction of
 Self-reference, but I'm not sure how to articulate it.
 On the other hand, maybe it's only a matter of
 definition of terms.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-10-02 Thread Rory Goff
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  snip
   The truth is every bit as much out there as it is in here.
  
  Is it? How do you know? (channelling Sparaig)
  
  :-)
 
 I watch public access, of course.

I watch public access - sounds as if the truth is in I to me :-)




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-10-02 Thread bbrigante
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/28/opinion/28dennett.html

Is intelligent design a legitimate school of scientific thought? 
Is there something to it, or have these people been taken in by one 
of the most ingenious hoaxes in the history of science? Wouldn't 
such a hoax be impossible? No. Here's how it has been done.

First, imagine how easy it would be for a determined band of 
naysayers to shake the world's confidence in quantum physics - how 
weird it is! - or Einsteinian relativity. In spite of a century of 
instruction and popularization by physicists, few people ever really 
get their heads around the concepts involved. Most people eventually 
cobble together a justification for accepting the assurances of the 
experts: Well, they pretty much agree with one another, and they 
claim that it is their understanding of these strange topics that 
allows them to harness atomic energy, and to make transistors and 
lasers, which certainly do work... 

Fortunately for physicists, there is no powerful motivation for such 
a band of mischief-makers to form. They don't have to spend much 
time persuading people that quantum physics and Einsteinian 
relativity really have been established beyond all reasonable doubt. 

With evolution, however, it is different. The fundamental scientific 
idea of evolution by natural selection is not just mind-boggling; 
natural selection, by executing God's traditional task of designing 
and creating all creatures great and small, also seems to deny one 
of the best reasons we have for believing in God. So there is plenty 
of motivation for resisting the assurances of the biologists. Nobody 
is immune to wishful thinking. It takes scientific discipline to 
protect ourselves from our own credulity, but we've also found 
ingenious ways to fool ourselves and others. Some of the methods 
used to exploit these urges are easy to analyze; others take a 
little more unpacking. 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-10-01 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 snip
  I don't have any particular affection for
  Schroedinger's cat.  I'd be delighted if someone
  could show it was a fallacy.  I'd be thrilled if
  celestial bodies could be shown to have
  consciousness.  I had a revelatory experience once
  of becoming aware of the sun as a conscious being.
 
 Nice. What sort of Personality did it show you?
 
 :-)

It lied all the time.  :-)






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-10-01 Thread off_world_beings
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
 snip
By what logic can you say the sun is not a conscious being?
   
   Where did I say it wasn't??  I said--see above--that
   I'd had the experience that it *was*, and that I would
   be thrilled to have scientific confirmation of that
   experience.
   
   How on *earth* do you turn that into my saying the
   sun is *not* a conscious being??
  
  Well, you said that it is not so because it has not been 
confirmed 
  by your scientists. (even though you know better). 
 
 I said NO SUCH THING.  Get a *grip*, man!
 

So you do agree that the sun could be thought of as conscious?
You seem unclear on what it is you think.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-10-01 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   wrote:
  snip
 By what logic can you say the sun is not a conscious being?

Where did I say it wasn't??  I said--see above--that
I'd had the experience that it *was*, and that I would
be thrilled to have scientific confirmation of that
experience.

How on *earth* do you turn that into my saying the
sun is *not* a conscious being??
   
   Well, you said that it is not so because it has not been
   confirmed by your scientists. (even though you know better). 
  
  I said NO SUCH THING.  Get a *grip*, man!
 
 So you do agree that the sun could be thought of as conscious?
 You seem unclear on what it is you think.

No, you seem unclear on what I said.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-10-01 Thread Rory Goff
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  snip
   I don't have any particular affection for
   Schroedinger's cat.  I'd be delighted if someone
   could show it was a fallacy.  I'd be thrilled if
   celestial bodies could be shown to have
   consciousness.  I had a revelatory experience once
   of becoming aware of the sun as a conscious being.
  
  Nice. What sort of Personality did it show you?
 
 I didn't get any sense of a *personal*
 consciousness, i.e., like that of a person.
 Action for the sun is basically nuclear
 processes on a gigantic scale and the consequent
 release of huge amounts of energy; that's what
 the sun does, ceaselessly, and whatever
 sentience it has is fully occupied keeping that
 massive furnace going.
 
 So it isn't a very *interesting* type of
 consciousness, with human-type quirks and
 idiosyncrasies, just overwhelmingly awesome to
 sense that all that incredibly fierce power is
 animate.
 
 And if the sun is conscious, it means the rest
 of the stars--some of which make the sun look
 like a kid's night light by comparison--and black
 holes and quasars and God knows what other
 monstrously powerful entities inhabit the universe
 are conscious beings as well.
 
 And then you start to wonder what *galaxies* are...

And Universes...








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-10-01 Thread Rory Goff
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 snip
  I didn't get any sense of a *personal*
  consciousness, i.e., like that of a person.
  Action for the sun is basically nuclear
  processes on a gigantic scale and the consequent
  release of huge amounts of energy; that's what
  the sun does, ceaselessly, and whatever
  sentience it has is fully occupied keeping that
  massive furnace going.
 
 Here's a photo of a small portion of the sun's
 surface, doing what it does:
 
 http://solarviews.com/browse/sun/trace10.jpg
 
 Here's another, with an image of the earth
 superimposed to give a sense of scale:
 
 http://solarviews.com/browse/sun/trace8.jpg
 
 The captions for these photos:
 
 
 Fountains of multimillion-degree, electrified
 gas in the atmosphere of the Sun have revealed
 the location where the solar atmosphere is heated
 to temperatures 300 times greater than the Sun's
 visible surface.
 
 
 *Multimillion-degree*.

Marvelous. And beautiful.

 :-)




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-10-01 Thread Rory Goff
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  snip
   I don't have any particular affection for
   Schroedinger's cat.  I'd be delighted if someone
   could show it was a fallacy.  I'd be thrilled if
   celestial bodies could be shown to have
   consciousness.  I had a revelatory experience once
   of becoming aware of the sun as a conscious being.
  
  Nice. What sort of Personality did it show you?
  
  :-)
 
 It lied all the time.  :-)

Too much white matter, not enough gray?

:-)




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-30 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  snip
   This goes to the Shrodinger cat thought experiment. ie. Is the 
 cat 
   in the box dead or alive if no-one else sees it. It is 
therefore 
 in 
   a neither dead nor alive state
   This thought experiment is nonsense because it assumes only 
 hhigher 
   order animals (people) are observers, but all animals (and 
 beyond ) 
   are observers, including the flees in the cats skin, and even 
 the 
   parasites in its blood, it's very own cells as single celled 
   organisms, and its very own DNA. 
   Someone is always watching.everywhere. 
   Even a planet is observing (experiencing) as is the sun.
   The fallacy of Shrodinger's cat is as yet not known to the 
   scientific understanding on Earth
  
  Well, boy, you're right in line for a Nobel Prize,
  then, as soon as you make it known.
 
 Now you are simply being dumb. When you can't handle it you decide 
 to throw sarcastic insults.  I know you can do better than that .

Hey, the reason the fallacy, as you describe it,
isn't yet known to scientific understanding is
because nobody's come up with any *evidence* for
it.

I don't have any particular affection for
Schroedinger's cat.  I'd be delighted if someone
could show it was a fallacy.  I'd be thrilled if
celestial bodies could be shown to have
consciousness.  I had a revelatory experience once
of becoming aware of the sun as a conscious being.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-30 Thread off_world_beings
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   snip
This goes to the Shrodinger cat thought experiment. ie. Is 
the 
  cat 
in the box dead or alive if no-one else sees it. It is 
 therefore 
  in 
a neither dead nor alive state
This thought experiment is nonsense because it assumes only 
  hhigher 
order animals (people) are observers, but all animals (and 
  beyond ) 
are observers, including the flees in the cats skin, and 
even 
  the 
parasites in its blood, it's very own cells as single celled 
organisms, and its very own DNA. 
Someone is always watching.everywhere. 
Even a planet is observing (experiencing) as is the sun.
The fallacy of Shrodinger's cat is as yet not known to the 
scientific understanding on Earth
   
   Well, boy, you're right in line for a Nobel Prize,
   then, as soon as you make it known.
  
  Now you are simply being dumb. When you can't handle it you 
decide 
  to throw sarcastic insults.  I know you can do better than that .
 
 Hey, the reason the fallacy, as you describe it,
 isn't yet known to scientific understanding is
 because nobody's come up with any *evidence* for
 it.
 
 I don't have any particular affection for
 Schroedinger's cat.  I'd be delighted if someone
 could show it was a fallacy.  I'd be thrilled if
 celestial bodies could be shown to have
 consciousness.  I had a revelatory experience once
 of becoming aware of the sun as a conscious being..

You are really not thinking this through. You are simply reacting to 
your tribal urges. Good luck with that.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-30 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snip
 This goes to the Shrodinger cat thought experiment. ie. Is 
 the 
   cat 
 in the box dead or alive if no-one else sees it. It is 
  therefore 
   in 
 a neither dead nor alive state
 This thought experiment is nonsense because it assumes only 
   hhigher 
 order animals (people) are observers, but all animals (and 
   beyond ) 
 are observers, including the flees in the cats skin, and 
 even 
   the 
 parasites in its blood, it's very own cells as single 
celled 
 organisms, and its very own DNA. 
 Someone is always watching.everywhere. 
 Even a planet is observing (experiencing) as is the sun.
 The fallacy of Shrodinger's cat is as yet not known to the 
 scientific understanding on Earth

Well, boy, you're right in line for a Nobel Prize,
then, as soon as you make it known.
   
   Now you are simply being dumb. When you can't handle it you 
 decide 
   to throw sarcastic insults.  I know you can do better than 
that .
  
  Hey, the reason the fallacy, as you describe it,
  isn't yet known to scientific understanding is
  because nobody's come up with any *evidence* for
  it.
  
  I don't have any particular affection for
  Schroedinger's cat.  I'd be delighted if someone
  could show it was a fallacy.  I'd be thrilled if
  celestial bodies could be shown to have
  consciousness.  I had a revelatory experience once
  of becoming aware of the sun as a conscious being..
 
 You are really not thinking this through. You are simply reacting 
 to your tribal urges. Good luck with that.

Unfortunately, you won't be able to show me where
I've gone so wrong in my thinking.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-30 Thread off_world_beings
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 snip
  This goes to the Shrodinger cat thought experiment. 
ie. Is 
  the 
cat 
  in the box dead or alive if no-one else sees it. It is 
   therefore 
in 
  a neither dead nor alive state
  This thought experiment is nonsense because it assumes 
only 
hhigher 
  order animals (people) are observers, but all animals 
(and 
beyond ) 
  are observers, including the flees in the cats skin, and 
  even 
the 
  parasites in its blood, it's very own cells as single 
 celled 
  organisms, and its very own DNA. 
  Someone is always watching.everywhere. 
  Even a planet is observing (experiencing) as is the sun.
  The fallacy of Shrodinger's cat is as yet not known to 
the 
  scientific understanding on Earth
 
 Well, boy, you're right in line for a Nobel Prize,
 then, as soon as you make it known.

Now you are simply being dumb. When you can't handle it you 
  decide 
to throw sarcastic insults.  I know you can do better than 
 that .
   
   Hey, the reason the fallacy, as you describe it,
   isn't yet known to scientific understanding is
   because nobody's come up with any *evidence* for
   it.
   
   I don't have any particular affection for
   Schroedinger's cat.  I'd be delighted if someone
   could show it was a fallacy.  I'd be thrilled if
   celestial bodies could be shown to have
   consciousness.  I had a revelatory experience once
   of becoming aware of the sun as a conscious being..
  
  You are really not thinking this through. You are simply 
reacting 
  to your tribal urges. Good luck with that.
 
 Unfortunately, you won't be able to show me where
 I've gone so wrong in my thinking.

By what logic can you say the sun is not a conscious being?




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-30 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
snip
I don't have any particular affection for
Schroedinger's cat.  I'd be delighted if someone
could show it was a fallacy.  I'd be thrilled if
celestial bodies could be shown to have
consciousness.  I had a revelatory experience once
of becoming aware of the sun as a conscious being..
   
   You are really not thinking this through. You are simply 
   reacting to your tribal urges. Good luck with that.
  
  Unfortunately, you won't be able to show me where
  I've gone so wrong in my thinking.
 
 By what logic can you say the sun is not a conscious being?

Where did I say it wasn't??  I said--see above--that
I'd had the experience that it *was*, and that I would
be thrilled to have scientific confirmation of that
experience.

How on *earth* do you turn that into my saying the
sun is *not* a conscious being??

So far in this conversation, you've misunderstood
virtually everything I've said.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-30 Thread Peter


--- off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:


 
 By what logic can you say the sun is not a conscious
 being?

What! Because it doesn't have characteristics we
usually associate with consciousness, for starters.
Off, with all due respect, your thinking is kinda
loose at the edges!


 
 
 
 
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-30 Thread off_world_beings
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
 snip
 I don't have any particular affection for
 Schroedinger's cat.  I'd be delighted if someone
 could show it was a fallacy.  I'd be thrilled if
 celestial bodies could be shown to have
 consciousness.  I had a revelatory experience once
 of becoming aware of the sun as a conscious being..

You are really not thinking this through. You are simply 
reacting to your tribal urges. Good luck with that.
   
   Unfortunately, you won't be able to show me where
   I've gone so wrong in my thinking.
  
  By what logic can you say the sun is not a conscious being?
 
 Where did I say it wasn't??  I said--see above--that
 I'd had the experience that it *was*, and that I would
 be thrilled to have scientific confirmation of that
 experience.
 
 How on *earth* do you turn that into my saying the
 sun is *not* a conscious being??


Well, you said that it is not so because it has not been confirmed 
by your scientists. (even though you know better). 
In addition, logic will prove that the sun is as conscious as 
anything else. 
In addition, I showed you Shrodingers cat fallacy and yet you are 
unable to see it and merely use sarcasm to avoid it. 

 So far in this conversation, you've misunderstood
 virtually everything I've said.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-30 Thread off_world_beings
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 
 
 --- off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
 
  
  By what logic can you say the sun is not a conscious
  being?
 
 What! Because it doesn't have characteristics we
 usually associate with consciousness, for starters.
 Off, with all due respect, your thinking is kinda
 loose at the edges!
 

Deal with the other posts I replied to you Peter. 
This post had an intended effect about which you are not aware and 
should not concern yourself. Not all things that are said are to be 
understood. They are intended to create an effect. ...which this one 
successfully did, just as I thought it would. Sound 
pretentious?.YEA BABY ! !but the method works. 
Now go back and answer my responses to your earlier posts and don't 
get yourself so excited. It is not good for you.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-30 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
snip
   By what logic can you say the sun is not a conscious being?
  
  Where did I say it wasn't??  I said--see above--that
  I'd had the experience that it *was*, and that I would
  be thrilled to have scientific confirmation of that
  experience.
  
  How on *earth* do you turn that into my saying the
  sun is *not* a conscious being??
 
 Well, you said that it is not so because it has not been confirmed 
 by your scientists. (even though you know better). 

I said NO SUCH THING.  Get a *grip*, man!

 In addition, logic will prove that the sun is as conscious as 
 anything else. 
 In addition, I showed you Shrodingers cat fallacy and yet you are 
 unable to see it and merely use sarcasm to avoid it. 

Look, obviously you're just going to continue to
make stuff up no matter what I say, so I'm bowing
out.  Have a nice conversation with yourself.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-30 Thread Rory Goff
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snip
 I don't have any particular affection for
 Schroedinger's cat.  I'd be delighted if someone
 could show it was a fallacy.  I'd be thrilled if
 celestial bodies could be shown to have
 consciousness.  I had a revelatory experience once
 of becoming aware of the sun as a conscious being.

Nice. What sort of Personality did it show you?

:-)




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-30 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 snip
  I don't have any particular affection for
  Schroedinger's cat.  I'd be delighted if someone
  could show it was a fallacy.  I'd be thrilled if
  celestial bodies could be shown to have
  consciousness.  I had a revelatory experience once
  of becoming aware of the sun as a conscious being.
 
 Nice. What sort of Personality did it show you?

I didn't get any sense of a *personal*
consciousness, i.e., like that of a person.
Action for the sun is basically nuclear
processes on a gigantic scale and the consequent
release of huge amounts of energy; that's what
the sun does, ceaselessly, and whatever
sentience it has is fully occupied keeping that
massive furnace going.

So it isn't a very *interesting* type of
consciousness, with human-type quirks and
idiosyncrasies, just overwhelmingly awesome to
sense that all that incredibly fierce power is
animate.

And if the sun is conscious, it means the rest
of the stars--some of which make the sun look
like a kid's night light by comparison--and black
holes and quasars and God knows what other
monstrously powerful entities inhabit the universe
are conscious beings as well.

And then you start to wonder what *galaxies* are...





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-30 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
snip
 I didn't get any sense of a *personal*
 consciousness, i.e., like that of a person.
 Action for the sun is basically nuclear
 processes on a gigantic scale and the consequent
 release of huge amounts of energy; that's what
 the sun does, ceaselessly, and whatever
 sentience it has is fully occupied keeping that
 massive furnace going.

Here's a photo of a small portion of the sun's
surface, doing what it does:

http://solarviews.com/browse/sun/trace10.jpg

Here's another, with an image of the earth
superimposed to give a sense of scale:

http://solarviews.com/browse/sun/trace8.jpg

The captions for these photos:


Fountains of multimillion-degree, electrified
gas in the atmosphere of the Sun have revealed
the location where the solar atmosphere is heated
to temperatures 300 times greater than the Sun's
visible surface.


*Multimillion-degree*.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   What would happen if Hagelin seriously weighed in on the 
   current, highly charged, debate on intelligent design? How 
   would he argue, left, right, or center?
  
  Define the terms first.
  
  Evolution is the inspiration for a major form of artificial 
  intelligence theory, afterall...
 
 I didn't mention evolution because evolution means a process which
 has  a goal. ie. Intelligent. The goal being the survival of the 
 fittest according to Darwinists.

I'm not sure Darwinists would agree that survival
of the fittest could be characterized as a goal.
That the fittest survive is just what happens--
how could it not?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   What would happen if Hagelin seriously weighed in on the 
current, 
   highly charged, debate on intelligent design? How would he 
argue, 
   left, right, or center?
   
  
  Define the terms first.
  
  Evolution is the inspiration for a major form of artificial 
  intelligence theory, afterall...
 
 
 I didn't mention evolution because evolution means a process which 
has 
 a goal. ie. Intelligent. 
 The goal being the survival of the fittest according to Darwinists.
 
 OffWorld

The goal is inherent in the system.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
What would happen if Hagelin seriously weighed in on the 
 current, 
highly charged, debate on intelligent design? How would he 
 argue, 
left, right, or center?

   
   Define the terms first.
   
   Evolution is the inspiration for a major form of artificial 
   intelligence theory, afterall...
  
  
  I didn't mention evolution because evolution means a process 
  which has a goal. ie. Intelligent.  The goal being the survival 
  of the fittest according to Darwinists.
 
 The goal is inherent in the system.

The goal is projected onto a system that doesn't need one.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread off_world_beings
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
What would happen if Hagelin seriously weighed in on the 
current, highly charged, debate on intelligent design? How 
would he argue, left, right, or center?
   
   Define the terms first.
   
   Evolution is the inspiration for a major form of artificial 
   intelligence theory, afterall...
  
  I didn't mention evolution because evolution means a process 
which
  has  a goal. ie. Intelligent. The goal being the survival of the 
  fittest according to Darwinists.
 
 I'm not sure Darwinists would agree that survival
 of the fittest could be characterized as a goal.
 That the fittest survive is just what happens--
 how could it not?

Then it cannot be given the name 'evolution' as if it has some 
purpose. It would need to be called 'chaos'. All Darwinists believe 
that evolution is a process based on a need. ie. Intelligence.

OffWorld




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread off_world_beings
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
What would happen if Hagelin seriously weighed in on the 
 current, 
highly charged, debate on intelligent design? How would he 
 argue, 
left, right, or center?

   
   Define the terms first.
   
   Evolution is the inspiration for a major form of artificial 
   intelligence theory, afterall...
  
  
  I didn't mention evolution because evolution means a process 
which 
 has 
  a goal. ie. Intelligent. 
  The goal being the survival of the fittest according to 
Darwinists.
  
  OffWorld
 
 The goal is inherent in the system..

'System' means 'intelligence'. 
Otherwise it needs to be called 'chaos' and not 'evolution'. It has 
order. It is intelligent. 
I didn't mention evolution because I think it implies order, and 
therefore cannot be used in an argument about the chaotic and 
undirected nature of the cosmos.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread off_world_beings
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 What would happen if Hagelin seriously weighed in on the 
  current, 
 highly charged, debate on intelligent design? How would he 
  argue, 
 left, right, or center?
 

Define the terms first.

Evolution is the inspiration for a major form of artificial 
intelligence theory, afterall...
   
   
   I didn't mention evolution because evolution means a process 
   which has a goal. ie. Intelligent.  The goal being the 
survival 
   of the fittest according to Darwinists.
  
  The goal is inherent in the system.
 
 The goal is projected onto a system that doesn't need one..

'System' means 'intelligence'.
Otherwise it needs to be called 'chaos' and not 'evolution'. It has
order. It is intelligent.
I didn't mention evolution because I think it implies order, and
therefore cannot be used in an argument about the chaotic and
undirected nature of the cosmos.

OffWorld




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 What would happen if Hagelin seriously weighed in on the 
 current, highly charged, debate on intelligent design? How 
 would he argue, left, right, or center?

Define the terms first.

Evolution is the inspiration for a major form of artificial 
intelligence theory, afterall...
   
   I didn't mention evolution because evolution means a process 
   which has a goal. ie. Intelligent. The goal being the survival 
   of the fittest according to Darwinists.
  
  I'm not sure Darwinists would agree that survival
  of the fittest could be characterized as a goal.
  That the fittest survive is just what happens--
  how could it not?
 
 Then it cannot be given the name 'evolution' as if it has some 
 purpose. It would need to be called 'chaos'. 

The word 'evolution' does NOT imply 'purpose.'

The sentient beings of the universe, as far as I can
tell, are all evolving.  But personally I don't think
that there is anywhere in particular that they are
evolving *to*.  I have no problem with everything
always evolving, but in a chaotic (meaning Inter-
dependent Origination) way.  No goal, no purpose,
just beings interacting and moving in the karmic
direction spawned by that interation.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  The goal is inherent in the system..
 
 'System' means 'intelligence'. 

Is the operating system on your computer intelligent?

(You don't have to answer that if you're using WinXP.)

Seriously, I work in AI.  A system *can* be intelligent,
but that doesn't mean either that it has a preprogrammed 
purpose or that it's sentient.  Neural nets learn, and
can change their purpose based on what they learn.  






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread off_world_beings
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  What would happen if Hagelin seriously weighed in on the 
  current, highly charged, debate on intelligent design? 
How 
  would he argue, left, right, or center?
 
 Define the terms first.
 
 Evolution is the inspiration for a major form of 
artificial 
 intelligence theory, afterall...

I didn't mention evolution because evolution means a process 
which has a goal. ie. Intelligent. The goal being the 
survival 
of the fittest according to Darwinists.
   
   I'm not sure Darwinists would agree that survival
   of the fittest could be characterized as a goal.
   That the fittest survive is just what happens--
   how could it not?
  
  Then it cannot be given the name 'evolution' as if it has some 
  purpose. It would need to be called 'chaos'. 
 
 The word 'evolution' does NOT imply 'purpose.'
 
 The sentient beings of the universe, as far as I can
 tell, are all evolving.  But personally I don't think
 that there is anywhere in particular that they are
 evolving *to*.  I have no problem with everything
 always evolving, but in a chaotic (meaning Inter-
 dependent Origination) way.  No goal, no purpose,
 just beings interacting and moving in the karmic
 direction spawned by that interation.

Then the word 'sentient' is out of place and is an illusion that you 
have placed upon the dead, inert, dumb universe. 
You are avoiding the issue which is that evolution has order. You 
said it yourself, it has 'direction' This implies order. Order 
implies intelligence. All the words you are using imply intelligence.
If you say it has no order then you must say it is chaotic. There is 
no way that you can claim it is chaotic in an intelligent way, which 
is what you just claimed. Or maybe you mean't is is intelligent in a 
chaotic way. This doesn't fly either.
If it is chaotic it has no business being called the (now) lofty 
name of the 'God' called 'Evolution'.

OffWorld




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread off_world_beings
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  
   The goal is inherent in the system..
  
  'System' means 'intelligence'. 
 
 Is the operating system on your computer intelligent?
 
 (You don't have to answer that if you're using WinXP.)
 
 Seriously, I work in AI.  A system *can* be intelligent,
 but that doesn't mean either that it has a preprogrammed 
 purpose or that it's sentient.  Neural nets learn, and
 can change their purpose based on what they learn.

You just said it: A system implies intelligence, otherwise it is not a 
system. Thankyou.
I see, you have two possiblities. 
Pre-programmed, or, learning systems.
(how do you spell the word touchee from the French...you are in a 
intellectual bind at this point)

OffWorld




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 What would happen if Hagelin seriously weighed in on the 
 current, highly charged, debate on intelligent design? How 
 would he argue, left, right, or center?

Define the terms first.

Evolution is the inspiration for a major form of artificial 
intelligence theory, afterall...
   
   I didn't mention evolution because evolution means a process 
 which
   has  a goal. ie. Intelligent. The goal being the survival of 
the 
   fittest according to Darwinists.
  
  I'm not sure Darwinists would agree that survival
  of the fittest could be characterized as a goal.
  That the fittest survive is just what happens--
  how could it not?
 
 Then it cannot be given the name 'evolution' as if it has some 
 purpose.

Evolution doesn't necessarily imply purpose,
just change over time.

 It would need to be called 'chaos'. All Darwinists believe 
 that evolution is a process based on a need. ie. Intelligence.

No, really.  In fact, the objection some religious
people have to Darwinian theory is that it removes
the *need* for a purpose--doesn't exclude it, but
makes it unnecessary.  The whole shebang could have
arisen on its own, without any guiding intelligence.

Whether there *was* a guiding intelligence is a
religious or philosophical question, not a scientific
one.  Science can't say one way or the other.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snip
  The goal is inherent in the system..
 
 'System' means 'intelligence'.

Aieee, no.  It can be used that way, but it can
also be used without any implication of intelligence.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread akasha_108
 
 Is the operating system on your computer intelligent?
 
 (You don't have to answer that if you're using WinXP.)
 
 Seriously, I work in AI.  A system *can* be intelligent,
 but that doesn't mean either that it has a preprogrammed 
 purpose or that it's sentient.  Neural nets learn, and
 can change their purpose based on what they learn.

Unlike many men.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  The word 'evolution' does NOT imply 'purpose.'
  
  The sentient beings of the universe, as far as I can
  tell, are all evolving.  But personally I don't think
  that there is anywhere in particular that they are
  evolving *to*.  I have no problem with everything
  always evolving, but in a chaotic (meaning Inter-
  dependent Origination) way.  No goal, no purpose,
  just beings interacting and moving in the karmic
  direction spawned by that interation.
 
 Then the word 'sentient' is out of place and is an illusion 
 that you have placed upon the dead, inert, dumb universe. 

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.
I'm presenting the POV that the universe is NOT
sentient, in the sense of a self-aware universe
with its own sense of identity, i.e., God.

I can conceive of the universe being the sum self
awareness of all of the sentient beings that dwell
within it, but I'm Buddhist enough to not really
believe it has a sentience of its own.

 You are avoiding the issue which is that evolution has order. 

That's *your* issue.  I obviously found other ways
to entertain myself with the same discussion.  I 
have no problem with the universe having order.
I just don't associate the word 'purpose' with the
word 'order.'

 You 
 said it yourself, it has 'direction' This implies order. 

It implies nothing more than the collective karma
of all of the sentient beings in the universe.  
Their actions determine the direction; the direction
is not pre-set or directed by an external entity.
(All IMO, of course.)

 Order implies intelligence. 

It really doesn't.

 All the words you are using imply intelligence.

To YOU.  Because of your point of view, and how you
tend to see things, your predilection.  Not to me.

 If you say it has no order then you must say it is chaotic. 

It is chaotic.  Within an ordered context called
karma.  Simple cause and effect.  

When it comes to this stuff, I'm a very Occam's Razor
kinda thinker.  I am comfortable with the concept of
a universe that has NO sentient intelligence and NO
preplanned purpose behind it.  Just an operating
system called karma.  It was never created and it
will never end.  I'm not trying to rain on your 
parade or anything; this is just what I believe.

I *know* that it's a belief, and a model of the
universe, and thus almost by definition wrong, but
it's the one I've come up with, for myself.  I'm
not trying to sell it to you.

 There is no way that you can claim it is chaotic in an 
 intelligent way, which is what you just claimed. 

I work with AI nerds.  A couple of them are SO
nerdy that they spend their days off writing neural
networks that are unpredictable.  Intelligent
chaos.

 Or maybe you mean't is is intelligent in a 
 chaotic way. 

Exactly.  You're gettin' it.

 This doesn't fly either.

Does it at least bounce on its butt?  I hear that's
the first stage of real flying.

 If it is chaotic it has no business being called the (now)  
 lofty name of the 'God' called 'Evolution'.

Did someone on your planet traumatize you in your
youth by subjecting you to long conversations about 
God and evolution and chaos and order?  You seem
awfully *involved* in this discussion.  I'm not
trying to convince you of anything and I'm not
trying to sell you anything.  I just said that 
this is what I believe.  I don't call it truth
or anything, just what I believe.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  Is the operating system on your computer intelligent?
  
  (You don't have to answer that if you're using WinXP.)
  
  Seriously, I work in AI.  A system *can* be intelligent,
  but that doesn't mean either that it has a preprogrammed 
  purpose or that it's sentient.  Neural nets learn, and
  can change their purpose based on what they learn.
 
 Unlike many men.

Amen.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread jim_flanegin
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:

 The goal is inherent in the system..

'System' means 'intelligence'. 
   
   Is the operating system on your computer intelligent?
   
   (You don't have to answer that if you're using WinXP.)
   
   Seriously, I work in AI.  A system *can* be intelligent,
   but that doesn't mean either that it has a preprogrammed 
   purpose or that it's sentient.  Neural nets learn, and
   can change their purpose based on what they learn.
  
  You just said it: A system implies intelligence, otherwise it is 
  not a system. Thankyou.
  I see, you have two possiblities. 
  Pre-programmed, or, learning systems.
  (how do you spell the word touchee from the French...you are 
in a 
  intellectual bind at this point)
 
 Is an 'intellectual bind' anything like that kinky
 thing we were talking about earlier, the self gettin'
 into some serious BD stuff with the Self?
 
 You're not actually one of those people who feels
 compelled to prove the existence of God, are you?

My evolution on my belief in God:

Believed He existed.
Believed I existed.
Believed They existed.
Believed She existed.
Belief existed.
No belief existed.
Believe We exist.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread off_world_beings
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  What would happen if Hagelin seriously weighed in on the 
  current, highly charged, debate on intelligent design? 
How 
  would he argue, left, right, or center?
 
 Define the terms first.
 
 Evolution is the inspiration for a major form of 
artificial 
 intelligence theory, afterall...

I didn't mention evolution because evolution means a process 
  which
has  a goal. ie. Intelligent. The goal being the survival of 
 the 
fittest according to Darwinists.
   
   I'm not sure Darwinists would agree that survival
   of the fittest could be characterized as a goal.
   That the fittest survive is just what happens--
   how could it not?
  
  Then it cannot be given the name 'evolution' as if it has some 
  purpose.
 
 Evolution doesn't necessarily imply purpose,
 just change over time.
 
  It would need to be called 'chaos'. All Darwinists believe 
  that evolution is a process based on a need. ie. Intelligence.
 
 No, really.  In fact, the objection some religious
 people have to Darwinian theory is that it removes
 the *need* for a purpose--doesn't exclude it, but
 makes it unnecessary.  The whole shebang could have
 arisen on its own, without any guiding intelligence.
 
 Whether there *was* a guiding intelligence is a
 religious or philosophical question, not a scientific
 one.  Science can't say one way or the other.

Then you are unaware that scientists are most definatlely saying one 
way. They are most definatley saying that there is no designer.

YOu are now talking about first causes, which I did not bring up, 
you did. I said there is a wholeness that is more than the sum of 
it's parts and which others here refer to a 'system'. This implies 
order, and direction. A system MEANS intelligence.

 Evolution is a system that exhibits intelligence, wether it comes 
out if unintelligence or not is not the issue. I thought you were 
arguing that evolution does not exhibit intelligence (ie. a system 
with order, direction)

OffWorld





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread off_world_beings
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 snip
   The goal is inherent in the system..
  
  'System' means 'intelligence'.
 
 Aieee, no.  It can be used that way, but it can
 also be used without any implication of intelligence..


Aieee, no it absulutely cannot. 




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  snip
The goal is inherent in the system..
   
   'System' means 'intelligence'.
  
  Aieee, no.  It can be used that way, but it can
  also be used without any implication of intelligence..
 
 
 Aieee, no it absulutely cannot.


Getting a beer from the fridge and sitting
back to enjoy this one.  The clash of the
You can't say that titans.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread off_world_beings
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
   The word 'evolution' does NOT imply 'purpose.'
   
   The sentient beings of the universe, as far as I can
   tell, are all evolving.  But personally I don't think
   that there is anywhere in particular that they are
   evolving *to*.  I have no problem with everything
   always evolving, but in a chaotic (meaning Inter-
   dependent Origination) way.  No goal, no purpose,
   just beings interacting and moving in the karmic
   direction spawned by that interation.
  
  Then the word 'sentient' is out of place and is an illusion 
  that you have placed upon the dead, inert, dumb universe. 
 
 I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.
 I'm presenting the POV that the universe is NOT
 sentient, in the sense of a self-aware universe
 with its own sense of identity, i.e., God.

In my opinion you joined to completely unrelated ideas together 
here: intelligence and 'God'. This is the irrational leap that all 
the anti-intelligent design scientists make. Intelligent universe 
does not imply the common concept of a 'God' and I have never stated 
there was a God. You made that leap on your own.


 
 I can conceive of the universe being the sum self
 awareness of all of the sentient beings that dwell
 within it, but I'm Buddhist enough to not really
 believe it has a sentience of its own.
 
  You are avoiding the issue which is that evolution has order. 
 
 That's *your* issue.  I obviously found other ways
 to entertain myself with the same discussion.  I 
 have no problem with the universe having order.
 I just don't associate the word 'purpose' with the
 word 'order.'

Yes you do.
Order has purpose. Whatever its purpose is, is irrelevent, but it 
has purpose imposed upon by the nature of the system that it is 
expressing. Evolotion absolutlely implies purpose. Its purpose is 
evolotion. Now define evolution, without calling it chaos. It has a 
direction.

OffWorld





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread off_world_beings
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:

 The goal is inherent in the system..

'System' means 'intelligence'. 
   
   Is the operating system on your computer intelligent?
   
   (You don't have to answer that if you're using WinXP.)
   
   Seriously, I work in AI.  A system *can* be intelligent,
   but that doesn't mean either that it has a preprogrammed 
   purpose or that it's sentient.  Neural nets learn, and
   can change their purpose based on what they learn.
  
  You just said it: A system implies intelligence, otherwise it is 
  not a system. Thankyou.
  I see, you have two possiblities. 
  Pre-programmed, or, learning systems.
  (how do you spell the word touchee from the French...you are 
in a 
  intellectual bind at this point)
 
 Is an 'intellectual bind' anything like that kinky
 thing we were talking about earlier, the self gettin'
 into some serious BD stuff with the Self?
 
 You're not actually one of those people who feels
 compelled to prove the existence of God, are you?

Why do you have to bring your religious beliefs about God into this?




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   wrote:
The word 'evolution' does NOT imply 'purpose.'

The sentient beings of the universe, as far as I can
tell, are all evolving.  But personally I don't think
that there is anywhere in particular that they are
evolving *to*.  I have no problem with everything
always evolving, but in a chaotic (meaning Inter-
dependent Origination) way.  No goal, no purpose,
just beings interacting and moving in the karmic
direction spawned by that interation.
   
   Then the word 'sentient' is out of place and is an illusion 
   that you have placed upon the dead, inert, dumb universe. 
  
  I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.
  I'm presenting the POV that the universe is NOT
  sentient, in the sense of a self-aware universe
  with its own sense of identity, i.e., God.
 
 In my opinion you joined to completely unrelated ideas together 
 here: intelligence and 'God'. This is the irrational leap that all 
 the anti-intelligent design scientists make. Intelligent universe 
 does not imply the common concept of a 'God' and I have never 
 stated there was a God. You made that leap on your own.
 
 
  I can conceive of the universe being the sum self
  awareness of all of the sentient beings that dwell
  within it, but I'm Buddhist enough to not really
  believe it has a sentience of its own.
  
   You are avoiding the issue which is that evolution has order. 
  
  That's *your* issue.  I obviously found other ways
  to entertain myself with the same discussion.  I 
  have no problem with the universe having order.
  I just don't associate the word 'purpose' with the
  word 'order.'
 
 Yes you do.
 Order has purpose. Whatever its purpose is, is irrelevent, but it 
 has purpose imposed upon by the nature of the system that it is 
 expressing. Evolotion absolutlely implies purpose. Its purpose is 
 evolotion. Now define evolution, without calling it chaos. It has a 
 direction.

Whatever floats your boat.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread Vaj



On 9/29/05 5:01 PM, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 In my opinion you joined to completely unrelated ideas together
 here: intelligence and 'God'. This is the irrational leap that all
 the anti-intelligent design scientists make. Intelligent universe
 does not imply the common concept of a 'God' and I have never stated
 there was a God. You made that leap on your own.

The idea is really of a *creator* god, not merely a god.

In general gods are dangerous for spiritual practitioners and for civilized
societies, as most (e.g. IHVH and Allah) are not enlightened and still
possessed with afflictive emotions. This only reinforces the need for
absolute separation of church/mosque and state--however the collective
recognition of codes which correspond to a transcendental morality may be
worth looking into.

An interesting POV:


Tony: The word that never pops into these discussions is the term God,
which is central in virtually every other religion.

 Lama Ole Nydahl: We don't use it. It creates an unnecessary duality which
one would have to dismantle later. We see gods as conditioned beings, who
are not enlightened and though Buddhism knows of many gods, we prefer to
keep a safe distance. We wish them everything good, of course, but do not
get involved unless they might come to learn. To understand why, one needs
only to examine their words. Gods are pompous, humorless, and some, like
Allah, are clearly unfit for civilized societies. Most have character
problems. Some are jealous; some are vengeful, none have found peace in
their own essence. They all have visible egos and frequently display
irrational behavior. They want beings to do this, and not to do that.
They're frequently very difficult customers and if one wouldn't want bearers
of such qualities as our neighbors, it would be unwise to take them as gods.
I know that many people don't like to be confronted with such views and
given the mental levels of their followers and the political situations at
their times, the gods should also be given the benefits of any doubt. There
is no way to ignore their statements in their ancient but still authorized
texts; however, the way they still motivate the behavior of their followers
today brings so much suffering. As any reader of intelligent newspapers will
know, they suppress the greater part of the world's women and regularly
erupt into strange and harmful actions even when kept under constant
surveillance.

 Mind's full development, on the other hand, its clear light and radiant
awareness, its consciousness endowed with every freedom to feel, question
and do - this is perfect. Rest in that and avoid the personal, difficult,
and unclear. Go straight to the radiant, compassionate joy which is always
satisfactory.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread TurquoiseB
Great stuff.  I particularly liked:

 They're frequently very difficult customers and if one wouldn't 
 want bearers of such qualities as our neighbors, it would be 
 unwise to take them as gods.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   What would happen if Hagelin seriously weighed in on 
the 
   current, highly charged, debate on intelligent design? 
 How 
   would he argue, left, right, or center?
  
  Define the terms first.
  
  Evolution is the inspiration for a major form of 
 artificial 
  intelligence theory, afterall...
 
 I didn't mention evolution because evolution means a 
process 
   which
 has  a goal. ie. Intelligent. The goal being the survival 
of 
  the 
 fittest according to Darwinists.

I'm not sure Darwinists would agree that survival
of the fittest could be characterized as a goal.
That the fittest survive is just what happens--
how could it not?
   
   Then it cannot be given the name 'evolution' as if it has some 
   purpose.
  
  Evolution doesn't necessarily imply purpose,
  just change over time.
  
   It would need to be called 'chaos'. All Darwinists believe 
   that evolution is a process based on a need. ie. Intelligence.
  
  No, really.  In fact, the objection some religious
  people have to Darwinian theory is that it removes
  the *need* for a purpose--doesn't exclude it, but
  makes it unnecessary.  The whole shebang could have
  arisen on its own, without any guiding intelligence.
  
  Whether there *was* a guiding intelligence is a
  religious or philosophical question, not a scientific
  one.  Science can't say one way or the other.
 
 Then you are unaware that scientists are most definatlely saying
 one way. They are most definatley saying that there is no designer.

Well, no, they aren't.  They're saying there's no
*evidence* for a designer.

 YOu are now talking about first causes, which I did not bring up, 
 you did.

Well, no, you said evolution was based on a *need*.

 I said there is a wholeness that is more than the sum of 
 it's parts and which others here refer to a 'system'. This implies 
 order, and direction. A system MEANS intelligence.

Well, no, system does not mean intelligence.

 Evolution is a system that exhibits intelligence, wether it comes 
 out if unintelligence or not is not the issue. I thought you were 
 arguing that evolution does not exhibit intelligence (ie. a system 
 with order, direction)

Right, evolution does not exhibit intelligence.
That's exactly what I was saying.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
   snip
 The goal is inherent in the system..

'System' means 'intelligence'.
   
   Aieee, no.  It can be used that way, but it can
   also be used without any implication of intelligence..
  
  Aieee, no it absulutely cannot.
 
 Getting a beer from the fridge and sitting
 back to enjoy this one.  The clash of the
 You can't say that titans.

Oops, you're still foggy, Barry.  Have another
look.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gods are pompous, humorless, and some, like
 Allah, are clearly unfit for civilized societies.

Mmm, this is a nice one, Vaj.  Do you endorse this
assertion?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread akasha_108
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Great stuff.  I particularly liked:
 
  They're frequently very difficult customers and if one wouldn't 
  want bearers of such qualities as our neighbors, it would be 
  unwise to take them as gods.

And he's a Dane.
http://www.lama-ole-nydahl.org/
http://www.diamondway.org/usa/1ole.php
http://www.spiritualteachers.org/lama_ole_nydahl.htm





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread off_world_beings
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
   --- In 
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
What would happen if Hagelin seriously weighed in on 
 the 
current, highly charged, debate on intelligent 
design? 
  How 
would he argue, left, right, or center?
   
   Define the terms first.
   
   Evolution is the inspiration for a major form of 
  artificial 
   intelligence theory, afterall...
  
  I didn't mention evolution because evolution means a 
 process 
which
  has  a goal. ie. Intelligent. The goal being the 
survival 
 of 
   the 
  fittest according to Darwinists.
 
 I'm not sure Darwinists would agree that survival
 of the fittest could be characterized as a goal.
 That the fittest survive is just what happens--
 how could it not?

Then it cannot be given the name 'evolution' as if it has 
some 
purpose.
   
   Evolution doesn't necessarily imply purpose,
   just change over time.
   
It would need to be called 'chaos'. All Darwinists believe 
that evolution is a process based on a need. ie. 
Intelligence.
   
   No, really.  In fact, the objection some religious
   people have to Darwinian theory is that it removes
   the *need* for a purpose--doesn't exclude it, but
   makes it unnecessary.  The whole shebang could have
   arisen on its own, without any guiding intelligence.
   
   Whether there *was* a guiding intelligence is a
   religious or philosophical question, not a scientific
   one.  Science can't say one way or the other.
  
  Then you are unaware that scientists are most definatlely saying
  one way. They are most definatley saying that there is no 
designer.
 
 Well, no, they aren't.  They're saying there's no
 *evidence* for a designer.
 
  YOu are now talking about first causes, which I did not bring 
up, 
  you did.
 
 Well, no, you said evolution was based on a *need*.
 
  I said there is a wholeness that is more than the sum of 
  it's parts and which others here refer to a 'system'. This 
implies 
  order, and direction. A system MEANS intelligence.
 
 Well, no, system does not mean intelligence.
 
  Evolution is a system that exhibits intelligence, wether it 
comes 
  out if unintelligence or not is not the issue. I thought you 
were 
  arguing that evolution does not exhibit intelligence (ie. a 
system 
  with order, direction)
 
 Right, evolution does not exhibit intelligence.
 That's exactly what I was saying..

Evolution exhibits order, direction. Order and direction are 
intelligence. This is what a system is. It is sytematic. If it is 
not systematic, then it is not a system, but chaos. If it is a 
system then it is systematic, which is what intelligence is. 
Evolution is systematic. Evolution exhibuts order. There is no 
intelligence that exists that is not built out of orderly 
functioning, and consequently , direction. Order and direction are 
what intelligence means.

OffWorld




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  Great stuff.  I particularly liked:
  
   They're frequently very difficult customers and if one wouldn't 
   want bearers of such qualities as our neighbors, it would be 
   unwise to take them as gods.
 
 And he's a Dane.
 http://www.lama-ole-nydahl.org/
 http://www.diamondway.org/usa/1ole.php
 http://www.spiritualteachers.org/lama_ole_nydahl.htm

I knew of him, but this is the first thing
I've ever read of him.  Funny stuff. 







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread Vaj



On 9/29/05 5:28 PM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gods are pompous, humorless, and some, like
 Allah, are clearly unfit for civilized societies.
 
 Mmm, this is a nice one, Vaj.  Do you endorse this
 assertion?


No comment. 

The answers are out there, find them.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 9/29/05 5:28 PM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Gods are pompous, humorless, and some, like
  Allah, are clearly unfit for civilized societies.
  
  Mmm, this is a nice one, Vaj.  Do you endorse this
  assertion?
 
 
 No comment. 
 
 The answers are out there, find them.

Last I heard, Scully and Mulder had them.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread Vaj



On 9/29/05 5:38 PM, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 Great stuff.  I particularly liked:
 
 They're frequently very difficult customers and if one wouldn't
 want bearers of such qualities as our neighbors, it would be
 unwise to take them as gods.
 
 And he's a Dane.
 http://www.lama-ole-nydahl.org/
 http://www.diamondway.org/usa/1ole.php
 http://www.spiritualteachers.org/lama_ole_nydahl.htm
 
 I knew of him, but this is the first thing
 I've ever read of him.  Funny stuff.

You should read his autobiography which is hilarious at points. Who would
ever have guessed that someone who was smuggling hashish out of Nepal inside
Buddha heads would become the foremost lama in the western world for
transmitting the phowa, the transference. This dude's opened more crown
chakras than anyone I know or've heard of




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread Jason Spock













 

Hari Om,
 If Order has purpose then, Chaos has no purpose.?? Hydrogen molecules inside the Sun are in a chaotic state because of very high temperature. But they do some work.

 The issue is whether it is impersonal intelligent design or Personal intelligent design.

 Maharishi belongs to the Vedanta school, Adi-Sankara line. It talks of impersonal Brahman. Look at Maharishi's commentary on Gita. He uses the word Evolution numerous times.

  http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/4/part2.html 

 Mutations in genes take place only due to Entropy, which exists only because of disorder. If there is perfect order mutations in genes cannot take place. Evolution cannot take place on the Absolute Brahman because there is perfection and order there. it can take place only in a duality based material universe

 Jason

OriginalMessage-
From: "off_world_beings" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:01:30 - Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?) 
Yes you do.Order has purpose. Whatever its purpose is, is irrelevent, but it has purpose imposed upon by the nature of the system that it is expressing. Evolotion absolutlely implies purpose. Its purpose is evolotion. Now define evolution, without calling it chaos. It has a direction.
OffWorld
From: "bbrigante" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 19:47:29 - Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (Was: What would happen if Hagelin...) 
To me, intelligent design theory is completely inadequate and unexplanatory and not as comprehensive as what MMY said. I think it's necessary to distinguish between reacting to behavior, which is what God does, and controlling everything, which intelligent design theorists seem to embrace. Human beings have obvious freedom of choice, and they suffer or enjoy based on the feedback from those choices. But animals and plants, although they do not have the consciousness to override their genetically-determined behaviors, do engage in maladaptive behaviors which result in feedback that eventually eliminates them. So natural selection, whether it is seen as decisions by a God or as decisions by impersonal natural laws, is a fact that is not acknowledged by intelligent design theorists because of their limited intelligence and knowledge -- MMY is not saying what intelligent design theorists are saying.


 


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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread jim_flanegin
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
 
 On 9/29/05 5:38 PM, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  wrote:
  Great stuff.  I particularly liked:
  
  They're frequently very difficult customers and if one 
wouldn't
  want bearers of such qualities as our neighbors, it would be
  unwise to take them as gods.
  
  And he's a Dane.
  http://www.lama-ole-nydahl.org/
  http://www.diamondway.org/usa/1ole.php
  http://www.spiritualteachers.org/lama_ole_nydahl.htm
  
  I knew of him, but this is the first thing
  I've ever read of him.  Funny stuff.
 
 You should read his autobiography which is hilarious at points. 
Who would
 ever have guessed that someone who was smuggling hashish out of 
Nepal inside
 Buddha heads would become the foremost lama in the western world 
for
 transmitting the phowa, the transference. This dude's opened more 
crown
 chakras than anyone I know or've heard of

Not surprised- Looks like a crown chakra opener. Very focused there. 

Or did he do it with the hashish?




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 On 9/29/05 5:28 PM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Gods are pompous, humorless, and some, like
  Allah, are clearly unfit for civilized societies.
  
  Mmm, this is a nice one, Vaj.  Do you endorse this
  assertion?
 
 No comment. 
 
 The answers are out there, find them.

Not the answer as to whether you endorse this
assertion.  Only you can tell us that.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread off_world_beings
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason Spock [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  


  
 Hari Om,
If Order has purpose then, Chaos has no purpose.??  
Hydrogen molecules inside the Sun are in a chaotic state because of 
very high temperature.  But they do some work.
  
   The issue is whether it is impersonal intelligent design or 
Personal intelligent design.
  
   Maharishi belongs to the Vedanta school, Adi-Sankara line.  
It talks of impersonal Brahman.  Look at Maharishi's commentary on 
Gita.  He uses the word Evolution numerous times.
  
 http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/4/part2.html  
  
   Mutations in genes take place only due to Entropy, which 
exists only because of disorder.  If there is perfect order 
mutations in genes cannot take place.  Evolution cannot take place 
on the Absolute Brahman because there is perfection and order 
there.  it can take place only in a duality based material universe
  


So order (or purpose?) is an aspect of chaos, and what we 
call 'chaos' in these examples above (which are really only sub-sets 
of the whole) is not chaos, but a meanigful part of the greater 
system and its systematic nature. ie. intelligent. We just gave it a 
name...'chaos'.

OffWorld





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread Vaj



On 9/29/05 6:16 PM, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
 
 On 9/29/05 5:38 PM, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 Great stuff.  I particularly liked:
 
 They're frequently very difficult customers and if one
 wouldn't
 want bearers of such qualities as our neighbors, it would be
 unwise to take them as gods.
 
 And he's a Dane.
 http://www.lama-ole-nydahl.org/
 http://www.diamondway.org/usa/1ole.php
 http://www.spiritualteachers.org/lama_ole_nydahl.htm
 
 I knew of him, but this is the first thing
 I've ever read of him.  Funny stuff.
 
 You should read his autobiography which is hilarious at points.
 Who would
 ever have guessed that someone who was smuggling hashish out of
 Nepal inside
 Buddha heads would become the foremost lama in the western world
 for
 transmitting the phowa, the transference. This dude's opened more
 crown
 chakras than anyone I know or've heard of
 
 Not surprised- Looks like a crown chakra opener. Very focused there.
 
 Or did he do it with the hashish?

No that was long gone by then.




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread Vaj
Well you might want to reread my own statements at the top of the original
post and the corresponding one on a.m.t then...


On 9/29/05 6:17 PM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 On 9/29/05 5:28 PM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gods are pompous, humorless, and some, like
 Allah, are clearly unfit for civilized societies.
 
 Mmm, this is a nice one, Vaj.  Do you endorse this
 assertion?
 
 No comment. 
 
 The answers are out there, find them.
 
 Not the answer as to whether you endorse this
 assertion.  Only you can tell us that.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 snip
   The goal is inherent in the system..
  
  'System' means 'intelligence'.
 
 Aieee, no.  It can be used that way, but it can
 also be used without any implication of intelligence.

All systems have intelligence related to them in some way. However, is 
the intelligence imposing order during its analysis of the system, or 
did an intelligence impose order in the *design* of the system?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread off_world_beings
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Off:
  Evolution exhibits order, direction. Order and direction are 
  intelligence. 
 
 I am not so sure. If you look at the US presidents, from the founding
 fathers to the present, it looks to me like Darwin got it exactly
 backwards.

You are referring to Darwinian Devolution which is not taught in 
schools for fear of offending the chimp.

http://www.bushorchimp.com/pics.html

OffWorld




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On 9/29/05 5:28 PM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Gods are pompous, humorless, and some, like
   Allah, are clearly unfit for civilized societies.
   
   Mmm, this is a nice one, Vaj.  Do you endorse this
   assertion?
  
  
  No comment. 
  
  The answers are out there, find them.
 
 Last I heard, Scully and Mulder had them.

The show was cancelled...

What's on Public Access?




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread off_world_beings
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  snip
The goal is inherent in the system..
   
   'System' means 'intelligence'.
  
  Aieee, no.  It can be used that way, but it can
  also be used without any implication of intelligence.
 
 All systems have intelligence related to them in some way. 
However, is 
 the intelligence imposing order during its analysis of 
the system, or 
 did an intelligence impose order in the *design* of the system?

Good question. The universe is the only (theoretically ) closed 
system . Whatever arises from it must be an illusion about it, 
unless it is inherently embued with intelligence by its very own 
simplest nature as an self- interacting existence.

I believe this is the Vedic view  (and is what Maharishi 
describes) , which ID proponents and anti-ID proponents cannot grasp.

OffWorld





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
   snip
 The goal is inherent in the system..

'System' means 'intelligence'.
   
   Aieee, no.  It can be used that way, but it can
   also be used without any implication of intelligence.
  
  All systems have intelligence related to them in some way. 
 However, is 
  the intelligence imposing order during its analysis of 
 the system, or 
  did an intelligence impose order in the *design* of the system?
 
 Good question. The universe is the only (theoretically ) closed 
 system . Whatever arises from it must be an illusion about it, 
 unless it is inherently embued with intelligence by its very own 
 simplest nature as an self- interacting existence.
 
 I believe this is the Vedic view  (and is what Maharishi 
 describes) , which ID proponents and anti-ID proponents cannot 
grasp.
 

FWIW, I think that too.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread akasha_108
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Off:
   Evolution exhibits order, direction. Order and direction are 
   intelligence. 
  
  I am not so sure. If you look at the US presidents, from the founding
  fathers to the present, it looks to me like Darwin got it exactly
  backwards.
 
 You are referring to Darwinian Devolution which is not taught in 
 schools for fear of offending the chimp.
 
 http://www.bushorchimp.com/pics.html
 
 OffWorld

Great Pics. I think it makes the case air tight.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread bbrigante
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 Off:
  Evolution exhibits order, direction. Order and direction are 
  intelligence. 
 


 I am not so sure. If you look at the US presidents, from the 
founding
 fathers to the present, it looks to me like Darwin got it exactly
 backwards.



Species that are maladaptive eventually disappear: 

So the message to the government is: if you don't
know Transcendental  Meditation, better know it
today, otherwise tomorrow will not be for you.
You will not be for tomorrow.  MMY, 1Dec2004
 






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  snip
The goal is inherent in the system..
   
   'System' means 'intelligence'.
  
  Aieee, no.  It can be used that way, but it can
  also be used without any implication of intelligence.
 
 All systems have intelligence related to them in some way. However,
 is the intelligence imposing order during its analysis of 
 the system, or did an intelligence impose order in the *design* of 
 the system?

Gee, I wouldn't say order being imposed on a system
during analysis by an intelligence means the system
*itself* has intelligence.  What about systems that
have never been analyzed by an intelligence?  What
intelligence do they have related to them (if you
exclude a designing intelligence)?

System just means stuff that interacts in a more
or less regular way.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread off_world_beings
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
   snip
 The goal is inherent in the system..

'System' means 'intelligence'.
   
   Aieee, no.  It can be used that way, but it can
   also be used without any implication of intelligence.
  
  All systems have intelligence related to them in some way. 
However,
  is the intelligence imposing order during its analysis of 
  the system, or did an intelligence impose order in the 
*design* of 
  the system?
 
 Gee, I wouldn't say order being imposed on a system
 during analysis by an intelligence means the system
 *itself* has intelligence.  What about systems that
 have never been analyzed by an intelligence? .

Can you name one?


 
 System just means stuff that interacts in a more
 or less regular way.

more or less regular way. 
What do you mean? Chaotic order, or orderly chaos? 
Neither will float your boat.
 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   wrote:
snip
  The goal is inherent in the system..
 
 'System' means 'intelligence'.

Aieee, no.  It can be used that way, but it can
also be used without any implication of intelligence.
   
   All systems have intelligence related to them in some way. 
  However, is 
   the intelligence imposing order during its analysis of 
  the system, or 
   did an intelligence impose order in the *design* of the system?
  
  Good question. The universe is the only (theoretically ) closed 
  system . Whatever arises from it must be an illusion about it, 
  unless it is inherently embued with intelligence by its very own 
  simplest nature as an self- interacting existence.
  
  I believe this is the Vedic view  (and is what Maharishi 
  describes) , which ID proponents and anti-ID proponents cannot 
  grasp.
 
 FWIW, I think that too.

Me too.  I'm also a thoroughgoing evolutionist, and
I'm rabidly against ID being taught in schools anywhere
but in a philosophy class.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   wrote:
snip
  The goal is inherent in the system..
 
 'System' means 'intelligence'.

Aieee, no.  It can be used that way, but it can
also be used without any implication of intelligence.
   
   All systems have intelligence related to them in some way. 
 However,
   is the intelligence imposing order during its analysis of 
   the system, or did an intelligence impose order in the 
 *design* of 
   the system?
  
  Gee, I wouldn't say order being imposed on a system
  during analysis by an intelligence means the system
  *itself* has intelligence.  What about systems that
  have never been analyzed by an intelligence? .
 
 Can you name one?

Hypothetical, obviously.  Let's say a very
complicated solar system in a distant galaxy
that no sentient being has ever observed.

  System just means stuff that interacts in a more
  or less regular way.
 
 more or less regular way. 
 What do you mean? Chaotic order, or orderly chaos? 
 Neither will float your boat.

Don't mean either.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread off_world_beings
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 snip
   The goal is inherent in the system..
  
  'System' means 'intelligence'.
 
 Aieee, no.  It can be used that way, but it can
 also be used without any implication of intelligence.

All systems have intelligence related to them in some way. 
  However,
is the intelligence imposing order during its analysis of 
the system, or did an intelligence impose order in the 
  *design* of 
the system?
   
   Gee, I wouldn't say order being imposed on a system
   during analysis by an intelligence means the system
   *itself* has intelligence.  What about systems that
   have never been analyzed by an intelligence? .
  
  Can you name one?
 
 Hypothetical, obviously.  Let's say a very
 complicated solar system in a distant galaxy
 that no sentient being has ever observed.

Sentient being is a judgement call. 

 
   System just means stuff that interacts in a more
   or less regular way.
  
  more or less regular way. 
  What do you mean? Chaotic order, or orderly chaos? 
  Neither will float your boat.
 
 Don't mean either.

Either, eether, niether, or neither?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread Rory Goff
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On 9/29/05 5:28 PM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
   Gods are pompous, humorless, and some, like
   Allah, are clearly unfit for civilized societies.
   
   Mmm, this is a nice one, Vaj.  Do you endorse this
   assertion?
  
  
  No comment. 
  
  The answers are out there, find them.
 
 Last I heard, Scully and Mulder had them.

Last I heard, the answers weren't so much out there, as in here




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread off_world_beings
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
   On 9/29/05 5:28 PM, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
Gods are pompous, humorless, and some, like
Allah, are clearly unfit for civilized societies.

Mmm, this is a nice one, Vaj.  Do you endorse this
assertion?
   
   
   No comment. 
   
   The answers are out there, find them.
  
  Last I heard, Scully and Mulder had them.
 


 Last I heard, the answers weren't so much out there, as in 
here

WHOA ! Rory, now that is one of the coolest lines I have heard in 
ages !
Even Dolly Parton would look cool sayin' that in the 'hood !

Nice one no kidding.

Ok Rick, it is time to start a new folder called 'Coolest lines' in 
the files section. This one by Rory is the measure of the rest. 
Very cool. I like it.

OffWorld





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread Rory Goff
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Last I heard, the answers weren't so much out there, as in 
 here
 
 WHOA ! Rory, now that is one of the coolest lines I have heard in 
 ages !
 Even Dolly Parton would look cool sayin' that in the 'hood !
 
 Nice one no kidding.
 
 Ok Rick, it is time to start a new folder called 'Coolest lines' in 
 the files section. This one by Rory is the measure of the rest. 
 Very cool. I like it.
 
*lol* You are very kind, Offworld, but I am almost certain that I 
heard someone else come up with that line first :-)




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Intelligent Design - - (What would happen if Hagelin...?)

2005-09-29 Thread off_world_beings
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
   Last I heard, the answers weren't so much out there, as in 
  here
  
  WHOA ! Rory, now that is one of the coolest lines I have heard 
in 
  ages !
  Even Dolly Parton would look cool sayin' that in the 'hood !
  
  Nice one no kidding.
  
  Ok Rick, it is time to start a new folder called 'Coolest lines' 
in 
  the files section. This one by Rory is the measure of the rest. 
  Very cool. I like it.
  
 *lol* You are very kind, Offworld, but I am almost certain that I 
 heard someone else come up with that line first :-) 


Well there is nothing new under the Sun, and in my book you get 
kudos for that cool line. In a world of endless ego-strutting that 
line made my day !

OffWorld





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