[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi refuses to Levitate.??

2005-10-02 Thread cardemaister
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   wrote:
   snip
Hmmm... how big a difference would it make if
one translated samaadhau to 'in samaadhi' instead
of 'to samaadhi'? I seem to recall that Vyaasa or 
Bhoja comments that siddhis tend to make samaadhi weaker, but 
 they
don't obstruct it alltogether (provided I've understood
the Sanskrit approximately correctly).
   
   Don't know nuttin' about the Sanskrit, but recall
   that according to MMY, the function of practicing
   the TM-Sidhis is to challenge samadhi, as with
   the metaphor of the sun fading the yellow dye in the
   context of plain-vanilla TM.  Activity following
   meditation challenges the samadhi that remains
   after meditation, which ultimately results in
   strengthening it and making it permanent.
   
   The intense color of the dye when the cloth comes
   out of the dye vat is weakened by the sun, but
   what remains is what has become permanent.  The
   permanent part is added to incrementally with each
   dip into the vat until it's all permanent.  But
   that wouldn't have happened if it wasn't weakened
   by the sun each time.
   
   Don't know if this has anything to do with it, but
   the possible parallel struck me as interesting.
  
  The sidhis challenge/weaken samadhi on the most fundamental level 
  possible.
 
 You know, I never connected the yellow dye analogy
 with the TM-Sidhis' challenge to samadhi before;
 I sure don't recall the parallel being part of what
 we were taught about the techniques.  It was eki's
 mention of weakening that made me think of it.
 Now it seems obvious.  Did I just miss that part?

There are a couple of points that seem to suggest that
the shithilii (weak, or whatever) applies mainly to
the effect of the suutra(s) on finest(I guess that's 
the adjective in English; below supernormal) senses. Here's one 
translation of the relevant suutras:

http://hrih.net/patanjali/library/3.htm

35. Experience (of pleasure or pain) arises from a conception which 
does not distinguish between the two extremely different entities, 
viz. Buddhisattva and Purusha. Such experience exists for another 
(i.e. Purusha). That is why through Samyama on Purusha (who oversees 
all experiences and also their complete cessation), a knowledge 
regarding Purusha is acquired.

36. Thence (from the knowledge of Purusha) arise Pratibha 
(prescience), Sravana (supernormal power of hearing), Vedana 
(supernormal power of touch), Adarsa (supernormal power of sight), 
Asvada (supernormal poker of taste) and Varta (supernormal power of 
smell).

37. They (these powers) are impediments to Samadhi, but are (regarded 
as) acquisitions in a normal fluctuating state of the mind.

(I left the typo on that page [poker] because
it felt so funny...)

Now, Vyaasa's commentary on 37. begins like this:

te praatibhaadayaH samaahita-cittasyotpadyamaanaa...

Vyaasa seems to make clear that the demonstrative pronoun
te in 37, te samaadhaav upasargaa... refers *only* to 
praatibha , shravana, etc, because he uses the expression
aadayaH which is nominative plurar of aadi  which in turn
means 'beginning', meaning that te refers to a list(or something)
that begins with praatibha. For instance indraadayaH means
'Indra, etc.'( I guess, Indra and the other devas).
The compound samaahita-citta obviously means something
like 'citta in samaadhi', because samaahita* is the perfect
participle from the verb samaadhaa, that's related to the
noun samaadhi.
And cittasyotpadyamaanaa is sandhi for cittasya + utpadyamaanaa.
The verb ut-pat from which utpadyamaanaa(H) is, I believe,
the present participle, means something like raise so
samaahita-cittasyotpadyamaanaa(H) would mean something
like 'raising the mind out of samaadhi'. 

If something of that is messy I might try to explain it in
some other way...

*) like saMhitaa is related to saMdhi (sandhi).






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi refuses to Levitate.??

2005-10-02 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   wrote:
   snip
Hmmm... how big a difference would it make if
one translated samaadhau to 'in samaadhi' instead
of 'to samaadhi'? I seem to recall that Vyaasa or 
Bhoja comments that siddhis tend to make samaadhi weaker, but 
 they
don't obstruct it alltogether (provided I've understood
the Sanskrit approximately correctly).
   
   Don't know nuttin' about the Sanskrit, but recall
   that according to MMY, the function of practicing
   the TM-Sidhis is to challenge samadhi, as with
   the metaphor of the sun fading the yellow dye in the
   context of plain-vanilla TM.  Activity following
   meditation challenges the samadhi that remains
   after meditation, which ultimately results in
   strengthening it and making it permanent.
   
   The intense color of the dye when the cloth comes
   out of the dye vat is weakened by the sun, but
   what remains is what has become permanent.  The
   permanent part is added to incrementally with each
   dip into the vat until it's all permanent.  But
   that wouldn't have happened if it wasn't weakened
   by the sun each time.
   
   Don't know if this has anything to do with it, but
   the possible parallel struck me as interesting.
  
  The sidhis challenge/weaken samadhi on the most fundamental level 
  possible.
 
 You know, I never connected the yellow dye analogy
 with the TM-Sidhis' challenge to samadhi before;
 I sure don't recall the parallel being part of what
 we were taught about the techniques.  It was eki's
 mention of weakening that made me think of it.
 Now it seems obvious.  Did I just miss that part?

I recall it being presented as a more subtle set of activities that 
stabilize pure consciousness at a more fundamental level.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi refuses to Levitate.??

2005-10-01 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  
  This is a subject of some interest to me, and since
  you are often very good at expressing the inexpressible
  in words, if you feel like saying more about these
  perceptions, I'm all ears.
 
 Thanks, I appreciate your appreciation; I'll give it a shot. The TM 
 and TM-sidhis felt obsolete upon awakening; I had no desire to 
 practice either of those programs anymore per se, so I am not 
 speaking of them specifically. 
 However, the desire to fly *did* remain, intensified if anything, 
 and in a way served as a focus or impetus of my continuing studies 
 which culminated in the group ascension spoken of here earlier 
 and in my bio.  Between those two points (say a 4 year period), I 
 *did* take great joy in the spontaneous upwelling of desires and 
 the siddhis of their fulfillment. (Some of these included conscious 
 co-creating of world events, weather-control, volcanos, talking 
 with animals, manifesting subtle essences, and the like. Most of 
 these I pretty quickly abjured, as I saw they were leading in a 
 non-evolutionary path for me, making me a deity rather than a 
 human -- a less complete dharma, not what I came here for at that 
 time.) 

Yup.  That's what I was interested in.  It's the path
that Rama took.  And see how that turned out.

 More recently, though, I have spent years (I think) more 
 consciously *not* practicing these second-nature abilities 
 (mostly by then the minor ones of knowledge, healing, shaktipat, 
 and so on), as they seemed not always to be appropriate: like 
 talking too much, instead of listening. 

Another wise decision IMO.  Good metaphor.

 They seemed at times to be habitual short-cuts that 
 actually *prevented* greater depth and intimacy and healing and 
 self-knowledge -- greater human-ness, IOW. This absention has not 
 always been there, by any means, but I have come to see its 
 usefulness.

Thanks for explaining.  

 :-)

Oo.  Nasty emoticon.  It must mean something nefarious.  :-)







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi refuses to Levitate.??

2005-10-01 Thread Rory Goff
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 Thanks for explaining.  

My pleasure; thanks for asking. 
 
  :-)
 
 Oo.  Nasty emoticon.  It must mean something nefarious.  :-)

HA! You got me there :-)





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi refuses to Levitate.??

2005-10-01 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
 
 On 9/30/05 3:29 AM, cardemaister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  One place is:
  
  Knowledge of Cosmic Consciousness
  
  5. The Renunciation of the Knower
  
  5.1 The Path of the Paramahamsa Yogins
  
  5.1.4. The two terms (paramahamsa and yogin) are used 
together
  in order
  to exclude someone who is only a yogin and someone who is only a
  paramahamsa. Someone who is only a yogin is a person who, because
  of his
  lack of the knowledge of truth, is attached to amazing feats of
  yogic power,
  such as knowing the past, present, and future, yogic flying, 
etc.,
  and has made efforts toward this or that (siddhi) with the 
various
  samyama
  formulae.  Consequently he becomes separated from the highest aim
  of human
  existence, Cosmic Consciousness.
  --
  jiivanmuktiviveka
  
  5. atha paJcamaM vidvasaMnyaasaprakaraNam
  
  5.1 yoginaaM parahaMsaanaaM margaH
  
  5.1.4 kevalayoginaM kevalaM paramahaMsaM ca vaarayituM padadvayam
  uktam
  kevalayogii tattvajnaanaabhavena trikaalajnaanaakazagamanadiSu
  yogaizvaryacamatkaaravyavahaareSv aasaktaH saMyamaviZeSais tatra
  tatrodyuktas, tataH paramapuruSaarthaad bhraSTo bhavati.
  
  Nice! Is that your own transliteration? (There seems to be a 
couple
  of minor typos in it, of the type I myself tend to make, but 
overall
  it's very good compared to what one usually sees.)
 
 Yes it is, from notes I had typed.
 
  Which part of that
  translates to cosmic consciousness? I guess it's implied.
 
 Yes, the topic is jivanmukti in this case--cosmic consciousness--so
 'separated from the highest aim of existence', is referring the 
jivanmukti
 state and how it is lost..

How does one jivanmukti?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi refuses to Levitate.??

2005-10-01 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 snip
  Hmmm... how big a difference would it make if
  one translated samaadhau to 'in samaadhi' instead
  of 'to samaadhi'? I seem to recall that Vyaasa or 
  Bhoja comments that siddhis tend to make samaadhi weaker, but they
  don't obstruct it alltogether (provided I've understood
  the Sanskrit approximately correctly).
 
 Don't know nuttin' about the Sanskrit, but recall
 that according to MMY, the function of practicing
 the TM-Sidhis is to challenge samadhi, as with
 the metaphor of the sun fading the yellow dye in the
 context of plain-vanilla TM.  Activity following
 meditation challenges the samadhi that remains
 after meditation, which ultimately results in
 strengthening it and making it permanent.
 
 The intense color of the dye when the cloth comes
 out of the dye vat is weakened by the sun, but
 what remains is what has become permanent.  The
 permanent part is added to incrementally with each
 dip into the vat until it's all permanent.  But
 that wouldn't have happened if it wasn't weakened
 by the sun each time.
 
 Don't know if this has anything to do with it, but
 the possible parallel struck me as interesting.

The sidhis challenge/weaken samadhi on the most fundamental level 
possible. 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi refuses to Levitate.??

2005-10-01 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
  snip
   Hmmm... how big a difference would it make if
   one translated samaadhau to 'in samaadhi' instead
   of 'to samaadhi'? I seem to recall that Vyaasa or 
   Bhoja comments that siddhis tend to make samaadhi weaker, but 
they
   don't obstruct it alltogether (provided I've understood
   the Sanskrit approximately correctly).
  
  Don't know nuttin' about the Sanskrit, but recall
  that according to MMY, the function of practicing
  the TM-Sidhis is to challenge samadhi, as with
  the metaphor of the sun fading the yellow dye in the
  context of plain-vanilla TM.  Activity following
  meditation challenges the samadhi that remains
  after meditation, which ultimately results in
  strengthening it and making it permanent.
  
  The intense color of the dye when the cloth comes
  out of the dye vat is weakened by the sun, but
  what remains is what has become permanent.  The
  permanent part is added to incrementally with each
  dip into the vat until it's all permanent.  But
  that wouldn't have happened if it wasn't weakened
  by the sun each time.
  
  Don't know if this has anything to do with it, but
  the possible parallel struck me as interesting.
 
 The sidhis challenge/weaken samadhi on the most fundamental level 
 possible.

You know, I never connected the yellow dye analogy
with the TM-Sidhis' challenge to samadhi before;
I sure don't recall the parallel being part of what
we were taught about the techniques.  It was eki's
mention of weakening that made me think of it.
Now it seems obvious.  Did I just miss that part?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi refuses to Levitate.??

2005-09-30 Thread cardemaister
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   On 9/28/05 2:51 PM, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
On 9/28/05 4:05 AM, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason Spock
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
Hari Om,  
I heard that, in an interview, Maharishi refused to
Levitate.  He reasoned that he had already achieved Unity
consciousness and there was no need for him to prove 
himself.!!

Many commentaries on the Yoga sutras make this point.

What point is that? Can you give an example?

The text that you keep referring to from the Shankaracharya 
tradition says this.
   
   Hmmm. Must've missed that part.
 
 This object [the siddhis] is not for him, who
 is knower of the Self, for he, the knower of the
 Self, has in view only the Self. He is content
 by himself and in himself and does not go after
 these products of ignorance.
 
 --Laghu Yogavasistha, as quoted by Vidaranya
 
   It DID say that yogic flying was 
   an obstacle of Cosmic Consciousness (Skt.: turiyatita).
  
  Where exactly did it say that?
 
 See:
 
 http://tinyurl.com/cx4ff
 
 Vaj's story seems to have changed a bit since
 that post, though.  But perhaps he's discovered
 passages that refer explicitly to yogic flying
 as an obstacle.

These are obstacles to samadhi; they are powers 
in the worldly state. 

 te samaadhaav upasargaa, vyutthaane siddhayaH.

samaadhaav: sandhi for locative singular samaadhau
siddhayaH : nominative plural of siddhi

Hmmm... how big a difference would it make if
one translated samaadhau to 'in samaadhi' instead
of 'to samaadhi'? I seem to recall that Vyaasa or 
Bhoja comments that siddhis tend to make samaadhi weaker, but they
don't obstruct it alltogether (provided I've understood
the Sanskrit approximately correctly).
For instance in YS I 13 locative singular sthitau
which is analogous to samaadhau, IMO roughly has the
meaning 'in sthiti', despite the fact that translating
it exactly like that (in staying) would sound a bit
awkward in English. Moreover, in a concrete connection
locative usually translates to 'in...', as nagare, 
'in the city'. OTOH, it's true that locative should
often be tranlated to 'into' (Coulson: end result
of motion).An example from
Coulson: *jale* baalaM kSipati (he throws the child
into the water). But there is certainly not an explicit
verb of motion in the suutra.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi refuses to Levitate.??

2005-09-30 Thread cardemaister
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
 
 On 9/28/05 4:40 PM, cardemaister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  The text that you keep referring to from the Shankaracharya
  tradition
  says this.
  
  Hmmm. Must've missed that part. It DID say that yogic flying was 
an
  obstacle
  of Cosmic Consciousness (Skt.: turiyatita).
  
  Where exactly did it say that?
 
 One place is:
 
 Knowledge of Cosmic Consciousness
 
 5. The Renunciation of the Knower
 
 5.1 The Path of the Paramahamsa Yogins
 
 5.1.4. The two terms (paramahamsa and yogin) are used together 
in order
 to exclude someone who is only a yogin and someone who is only a
 paramahamsa. Someone who is only a yogin is a person who, because 
of his
 lack of the knowledge of truth, is attached to amazing feats of 
yogic power,
 such as knowing the past, present, and future, yogic flying, etc.,
 and has made efforts toward this or that (siddhi) with the various 
samyama
 formulae.  Consequently he becomes separated from the highest aim 
of human
 existence, Cosmic Consciousness.
 --
 jiivanmuktiviveka
 
 5. atha paJcamaM vidvasaMnyaasaprakaraNam
 
 5.1 yoginaaM parahaMsaanaaM margaH
 
 5.1.4 kevalayoginaM kevalaM paramahaMsaM ca vaarayituM padadvayam 
uktam
 kevalayogii tattvajnaanaabhavena trikaalajnaanaakazagamanadiSu
 yogaizvaryacamatkaaravyavahaareSv aasaktaH saMyamaviZeSais tatra
 tatrodyuktas, tataH paramapuruSaarthaad bhraSTo bhavati.

Nice! Is that your own transliteration? (There seems to be a couple
of minor typos in it, of the type I myself tend to make, but overall 
it's very good compared to what one usually sees.) Which part of that
translates to cosmic consciousness? I guess it's implied.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi refuses to Levitate.??

2005-09-30 Thread Rory Goff
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 These are obstacles to samadhi; they are powers 
 in the worldly state. 
 
  te samaadhaav upasargaa, vyutthaane siddhayaH.
 
 samaadhaav: sandhi for locative singular samaadhau
 siddhayaH : nominative plural of siddhi
 
 Hmmm... how big a difference would it make if
 one translated samaadhau to 'in samaadhi' instead
 of 'to samaadhi'? I seem to recall that Vyaasa or 
 Bhoja comments that siddhis tend to make samaadhi weaker, but they
 don't obstruct it alltogether (provided I've understood
 the Sanskrit approximately correctly).
 For instance in YS I 13 locative singular sthitau
 which is analogous to samaadhau, IMO roughly has the
 meaning 'in sthiti', despite the fact that translating
 it exactly like that (in staying) would sound a bit
 awkward in English. Moreover, in a concrete connection
 locative usually translates to 'in...', as nagare, 
 'in the city'. OTOH, it's true that locative should
 often be tranlated to 'into' (Coulson: end result
 of motion).An example from
 Coulson: *jale* baalaM kSipati (he throws the child
 into the water). But there is certainly not an explicit
 verb of motion in the suutra.

YES Cardemaister; many thanks; this makes *perfect* sense! I have 
sometimes found that specific exercise of the siddhis has something 
of an expenditure or unchastity effect that is not particularly 
pleasing, or feels like a lack of integrity almost :-)





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi refuses to Levitate.??

2005-09-30 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
snip
 Hmmm... how big a difference would it make if
 one translated samaadhau to 'in samaadhi' instead
 of 'to samaadhi'? I seem to recall that Vyaasa or 
 Bhoja comments that siddhis tend to make samaadhi weaker, but they
 don't obstruct it alltogether (provided I've understood
 the Sanskrit approximately correctly).

Don't know nuttin' about the Sanskrit, but recall
that according to MMY, the function of practicing
the TM-Sidhis is to challenge samadhi, as with
the metaphor of the sun fading the yellow dye in the
context of plain-vanilla TM.  Activity following
meditation challenges the samadhi that remains
after meditation, which ultimately results in
strengthening it and making it permanent.

The intense color of the dye when the cloth comes
out of the dye vat is weakened by the sun, but
what remains is what has become permanent.  The
permanent part is added to incrementally with each
dip into the vat until it's all permanent.  But
that wouldn't have happened if it wasn't weakened
by the sun each time.

Don't know if this has anything to do with it, but
the possible parallel struck me as interesting.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi refuses to Levitate.??

2005-09-30 Thread cardemaister
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 snip
  Hmmm... how big a difference would it make if
  one translated samaadhau to 'in samaadhi' instead
  of 'to samaadhi'? I seem to recall that Vyaasa or 
  Bhoja comments that siddhis tend to make samaadhi weaker, but they
  don't obstruct it alltogether (provided I've understood
  the Sanskrit approximately correctly).
 
 Don't know nuttin' about the Sanskrit, but recall
 that according to MMY, the function of practicing
 the TM-Sidhis is to challenge samadhi, as with
 the metaphor of the sun fading the yellow dye in the
 context of plain-vanilla TM.  Activity following
 meditation challenges the samadhi that remains
 after meditation, which ultimately results in
 strengthening it and making it permanent.
 
 The intense color of the dye when the cloth comes
 out of the dye vat is weakened by the sun, but
 what remains is what has become permanent.  The
 permanent part is added to incrementally with each
 dip into the vat until it's all permanent.  But
 that wouldn't have happened if it wasn't weakened
 by the sun each time.
 
 Don't know if this has anything to do with it, but
 the possible parallel struck me as interesting.

Bhoja's commentary on te samaadhaav upasargaa... seems to
have three whole sentences. The middlemost of them feels
to me like the syntactically easiest one. Goes like this:

tatra harSa-vismayaadi-karaNena samaadhiH
shithilii bhavati

I might translate that for instance like this:

Therefore (because of that [positive emotional?] effect
of the siddhis previously mentioned?)samaadhi becomes shithilii*
by causing harSa**, vismaya***, and stuff (aadi).

*)1 shithila mf(%{A})n. (collateral form of prec.) loose , slack , 
lax , relaxed , untied , flaccid , not rigid or compact TS. c. c. ; 
soft , pliant , supple Pan5cat. ; unsteady , tremulous MBh. ; 
languid , inert , unenergetic , weak , feeble MBh. Ka1v. c. ; 
careless in (loc.) R. ; indistinct (as sound) L. ; not rigidly 
observed W. ; loosely retained or possessed , abandoned , shaken off 
ib. ; (%{am}) ind. loosely , not firmly Ragh. ; (%{I}) f. a kind of 
tawny-coloured ant (said to be a variety of the white ant) L. ; (%
{am}) n. a loose fastening , looseness , laxity , slowness MW. ; a 
partic. separation of the terms or members of a logical series ib. 

**)1 harSa m. (ifc. f. %{A} ; fr. %{hRS}) bristling , erection (esp. 
of the hair in a thrill of rapture or delight) MBh. Ka1v. c. ; joy , 
pleasure , happiness (also personified as a son of Dharma) Kat2hUp. 
MBh. c. [1292,3] ; erection of the sexual organ , sexual 
excitement , lustfulness Sus3r. ; ardent desire MBh. ; N. of an Asura 
Katha1s. ; of a son of Kr2ishn2a BhP. ; of various authors c. (also 
with %{dIkSita} , %{mizra} , %{sUri} c. ; cf. %{zrI-harSa}) ; mfn. 
happy , delighted W. 

***)2 vismaya 1 m. (for 2. see p. 953 , col. 1) wonder , surprise , 
amazement , bewilderment , perplexity (in rhet. one of the %{sthAyi-
bhAvas} q.v.) MBh. Ka1v. Das3ar. ; pride , arrogance Mn. BhP. ; 
doubt , uncertainty W. ; %{-kara} , %{-kArin} , %{-M-kara} , %{-M-
gama} mfn. causing astonishment or admiration , astonishing , 
wonderful MBh. Ka1v. c. ; %{-vat} mfn. manifesting pride or 
arrogance Hcat. ; %{-viSAda-vat} mfn. filled with astonishment and 
perplexity Katha1s. ; %{-harSa-mUla} mfn. caused by astonishment and 
Joy MW. ; %{-yA7kula} , %{-yA7nvita} or %{-yA7viSTa} mfn. filled with 
astonishment or wonder MBh. ; %{-yo7tphulla-nayana} (or %{-locana}) 
mfn. having eyes wide open or staring with astonishment MW. 






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi refuses to Levitate.??

2005-09-30 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
  snip
   Hmmm... how big a difference would it make if
   one translated samaadhau to 'in samaadhi' instead
   of 'to samaadhi'? I seem to recall that Vyaasa or 
   Bhoja comments that siddhis tend to make samaadhi weaker, but 
they
   don't obstruct it alltogether (provided I've understood
   the Sanskrit approximately correctly).
  
  Don't know nuttin' about the Sanskrit, but recall
  that according to MMY, the function of practicing
  the TM-Sidhis is to challenge samadhi, as with
  the metaphor of the sun fading the yellow dye in the
  context of plain-vanilla TM.  Activity following
  meditation challenges the samadhi that remains
  after meditation, which ultimately results in
  strengthening it and making it permanent.
  
  The intense color of the dye when the cloth comes
  out of the dye vat is weakened by the sun, but
  what remains is what has become permanent.  The
  permanent part is added to incrementally with each
  dip into the vat until it's all permanent.  But
  that wouldn't have happened if it wasn't weakened
  by the sun each time.
  
  Don't know if this has anything to do with it, but
  the possible parallel struck me as interesting.
 
 Bhoja's commentary on te samaadhaav upasargaa... seems to
 have three whole sentences. The middlemost of them feels
 to me like the syntactically easiest one. Goes like this:
 
 tatra harSa-vismayaadi-karaNena samaadhiH
 shithilii bhavati
 
 I might translate that for instance like this:
 
 Therefore (because of that [positive emotional?] effect
 of the siddhis previously mentioned?)samaadhi becomes shithilii*
 by causing harSa**, vismaya***, and stuff (aadi).
 
 *)1 shithila mf(%{A})n. (collateral form of prec.) loose , slack , 
 lax , relaxed , untied , flaccid , not rigid or compact TS. c. 
c. ; 
 soft , pliant , supple Pan5cat. ; unsteady , tremulous MBh. ; 
 languid , inert , unenergetic , weak , feeble MBh. Ka1v. c. ; 
 careless in (loc.) R. ; indistinct (as sound) L. ; not rigidly 
 observed W. ; loosely retained or possessed , abandoned , shaken 
off 
 ib. ; (%{am}) ind. loosely , not firmly Ragh. ; (%{I}) f. a kind of 
 tawny-coloured ant (said to be a variety of the white ant) L. ; (%
 {am}) n. a loose fastening , looseness , laxity , slowness MW. ; a 
 partic. separation of the terms or members of a logical series ib.

OK, this is purely intuitive, but the word scattered
comes to mind--diffused, unfocused.  Does that make any
sense to you?
 
 **)1 harSa m. (ifc. f. %{A} ; fr. %{hRS}) bristling , erection 
(esp. 
 of the hair in a thrill of rapture or delight) MBh. Ka1v. c. ; 
joy , 
 pleasure , happiness (also personified as a son of Dharma) Kat2hUp. 
 MBh. c. [1292,3] ; erection of the sexual organ , sexual 
 excitement , lustfulness Sus3r. ; ardent desire MBh. ; N. of an 
Asura 
 Katha1s. ; of a son of Kr2ishn2a BhP. ; of various authors c. 
(also 
 with %{dIkSita} , %{mizra} , %{sUri} c. ; cf. %{zrI-harSa}) ; mfn. 
 happy , delighted W. 
 
 ***)2 vismaya 1 m. (for 2. see p. 953 , col. 1) wonder , surprise , 
 amazement , bewilderment , perplexity (in rhet. one of the %{sthAyi-
 bhAvas} q.v.) MBh. Ka1v. Das3ar. ; pride , arrogance Mn. BhP. ; 
 doubt , uncertainty W. ; %{-kara} , %{-kArin} , %{-M-kara} , %{-M-
 gama} mfn. causing astonishment or admiration , astonishing , 
 wonderful MBh. Ka1v. c. ; %{-vat} mfn. manifesting pride or 
 arrogance Hcat. ; %{-viSAda-vat} mfn. filled with astonishment and 
 perplexity Katha1s. ; %{-harSa-mUla} mfn. caused by astonishment 
and 
 Joy MW. ; %{-yA7kula} , %{-yA7nvita} or %{-yA7viSTa} mfn. filled 
with 
 astonishment or wonder MBh. ; %{-yo7tphulla-nayana} (or %{-locana}) 
 mfn. having eyes wide open or staring with astonishment MW.

There's no way I can possibly explain this, but with
these definitions, samaadhi becomes shithilii by
causing harSa, vismaya works for me as a description
of what happens when I think a sutra.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi refuses to Levitate.??

2005-09-28 Thread Vaj



On 9/28/05 4:05 AM, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason Spock [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
 
  
 
 
  
 Hari Om,
   I heard that, in an interview, Maharishi refused to
 Levitate.  He reasoned that he had already achieved Unity consciousness
 and there was no need for him to prove himself.!!
 
 
 Many commentaries on the Yoga sutras make this point.

What point is that? Can you give an example?




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi refuses to Levitate.??

2005-09-28 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
 
 On 9/28/05 4:05 AM, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason Spock 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  wrote:
  
  
   
  
  
   
  Hari Om,
I heard that, in an interview, Maharishi refused to
  Levitate.  He reasoned that he had already achieved Unity 
consciousness
  and there was no need for him to prove himself.!!
  
  
  Many commentaries on the Yoga sutras make this point.
 
 What point is that? Can you give an example?

The text that you keep referring to from the Shankaracharya tradition 
says this.




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi refuses to Levitate.??

2005-09-28 Thread Vaj



On 9/28/05 2:51 PM, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
 
 On 9/28/05 4:05 AM, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason Spock
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
   
   

   
   

 Hari Om,  
   I heard that, in an interview, Maharishi refused to
 Levitate.  He reasoned that he had already achieved Unity
 consciousness
 and there was no need for him to prove himself.!!
 
 
 Many commentaries on the Yoga sutras make this point.
 
 What point is that? Can you give an example?
 
 The text that you keep referring to from the Shankaracharya tradition
 says this.

Hmmm. Must've missed that part. It DID say that yogic flying was an obstacle
of Cosmic Consciousness (Skt.: turiyatita).




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi refuses to Levitate.??

2005-09-28 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
 
 On 9/28/05 2:51 PM, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  
  
  On 9/28/05 4:05 AM, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason Spock
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  wrote:


 


 
  Hari Om,  
I heard that, in an interview, Maharishi refused 
to
  Levitate.  He reasoned that he had already achieved Unity
  consciousness
  and there was no need for him to prove himself.!!
  
  
  Many commentaries on the Yoga sutras make this point.
  
  What point is that? Can you give an example?
  
  The text that you keep referring to from the Shankaracharya 
tradition
  says this.
 
 Hmmm. Must've missed that part. 

In the part of the discussion about someone who has attained 
enlightenment wouldn't find the sidhis attractive anyway...

It DID say that yogic flying was an obstacle
 of Cosmic Consciousness (Skt.: turiyatita).

The Yoga Sutras themselves say that they're an obstacle.

Of course, what is an obstacle?

That's the point MMY makes.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi refuses to Levitate.??

2005-09-28 Thread cardemaister
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
 
 On 9/28/05 2:51 PM, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  
  
  On 9/28/05 4:05 AM, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason Spock
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  wrote:


 


 
  Hari Om,  
I heard that, in an interview, Maharishi refused 
to
  Levitate.  He reasoned that he had already achieved Unity
  consciousness
  and there was no need for him to prove himself.!!
  
  
  Many commentaries on the Yoga sutras make this point.
  
  What point is that? Can you give an example?
  
  The text that you keep referring to from the Shankaracharya 
tradition
  says this.
 
 Hmmm. Must've missed that part. It DID say that yogic flying was an 
obstacle
 of Cosmic Consciousness (Skt.: turiyatita).

Where exactly did it say that?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi refuses to Levitate.??

2005-09-28 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On 9/28/05 2:51 PM, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   wrote:
   On 9/28/05 4:05 AM, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason Spock
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   Hari Om,  
   I heard that, in an interview, Maharishi refused to
   Levitate.  He reasoned that he had already achieved Unity
   consciousness and there was no need for him to prove 
   himself.!!
   
   Many commentaries on the Yoga sutras make this point.
   
   What point is that? Can you give an example?
   
   The text that you keep referring to from the Shankaracharya 
   tradition says this.
  
  Hmmm. Must've missed that part.

This object [the siddhis] is not for him, who
is knower of the Self, for he, the knower of the
Self, has in view only the Self. He is content
by himself and in himself and does not go after
these products of ignorance.

--Laghu Yogavasistha, as quoted by Vidaranya

  It DID say that yogic flying was 
  an obstacle of Cosmic Consciousness (Skt.: turiyatita).
 
 Where exactly did it say that?

See:

http://tinyurl.com/cx4ff

Vaj's story seems to have changed a bit since
that post, though.  But perhaps he's discovered
passages that refer explicitly to yogic flying
as an obstacle.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi refuses to Levitate.??

2005-09-28 Thread tazarmfune
SNIP
  Hmmm. Must've missed that part. It DID say that yogic flying 
was an 
 obstacle
  of Cosmic Consciousness (Skt.: turiyatita).
 
 Where exactly did it say that?

The Yoga Sutras say (somewhere) that powers are an obstacle 
to Samadhi. I heard that MMY comment that the translation was 
simply bad. Since the experience of Samadhi is the very basis of 
the siddhis, how can they be an obstacle to Samadhi?






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi refuses to Levitate.??

2005-09-28 Thread Vaj



On 9/28/05 4:40 PM, cardemaister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 The text that you keep referring to from the Shankaracharya
 tradition
 says this.
 
 Hmmm. Must've missed that part. It DID say that yogic flying was an
 obstacle
 of Cosmic Consciousness (Skt.: turiyatita).
 
 Where exactly did it say that?

One place is:

Knowledge of Cosmic Consciousness

5. The Renunciation of the Knower

5.1 The Path of the Paramahamsa Yogins

5.1.4. The two terms (paramahamsa and yogin) are used together in order
to exclude someone who is only a yogin and someone who is only a
paramahamsa. Someone who is only a yogin is a person who, because of his
lack of the knowledge of truth, is attached to amazing feats of yogic power,
such as knowing the past, present, and future, yogic flying, etc.,
and has made efforts toward this or that (siddhi) with the various samyama
formulae.  Consequently he becomes separated from the highest aim of human
existence, Cosmic Consciousness.
--
jiivanmuktiviveka

5. atha paJcamaM vidvasaMnyaasaprakaraNam

5.1 yoginaaM parahaMsaanaaM margaH

5.1.4 kevalayoginaM kevalaM paramahaMsaM ca vaarayituM padadvayam uktam
kevalayogii tattvajnaanaabhavena trikaalajnaanaakazagamanadiSu
yogaizvaryacamatkaaravyavahaareSv aasaktaH saMyamaviZeSais tatra
tatrodyuktas, tataH paramapuruSaarthaad bhraSTo bhavati.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi refuses to Levitate.??

2005-09-28 Thread bbrigante
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tazarmfune [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 SNIP
   Hmmm. Must've missed that part. It DID say that yogic flying 
 was an 
  obstacle
   of Cosmic Consciousness (Skt.: turiyatita).
  
  Where exactly did it say that?
 


 The Yoga Sutras say (somewhere) that powers are an obstacle 
 to Samadhi. I heard that MMY comment that the translation was 
 simply bad. Since the experience of Samadhi is the very basis of 
 the siddhis, how can they be an obstacle to Samadhi?

***

The Siddhis may be an obstacle to enlightenment for the same reason 
that wealth may be an obstacle (really, the word distraction is a 
better fit than obstacle) to enlightenment (it is harder for a rich 
man to enter the kingdom of heaven within than for a camel to enter 
the eye of a needle, and so on). Rich people have all sorts of 
options in the material world to distract them from enjoying the only 
real durable bliss, that bliss of consciousness found through sitting 
down quietly and diving inside with TM. Similarly, if people could 
immediately fly upon doing the sutra, they might spend all their time 
traveling throughout the universe, and not spend time in TM. 

However, people's nervous systems in the Kaliyuga are so twisted, and 
consequently, the atmosphere is so poisoned now that it will not be 
permit people to be happy, so TM's yogic flyers (who are only found 
hopping after 30 years of practice) only experience a boost in 
purification of the nervous system which supports the growth of 
enlightenment instead of running the risk of Siddhas going off on some 
on some side track for a lark, and missing the best fun of all, living 
full awareness.

Bob Brigante
http://geocities.com/bbrigante/spiritual.html




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi refuses to Levitate.??

2005-09-28 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tazarmfune [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 SNIP
   Hmmm. Must've missed that part. It DID say that yogic flying 
 was an 
  obstacle
   of Cosmic Consciousness (Skt.: turiyatita).
  
  Where exactly did it say that?
 
 The Yoga Sutras say (somewhere) that powers are an obstacle 
 to Samadhi. I heard that MMY comment that the translation was 
 simply bad. Since the experience of Samadhi is the very basis of 
 the siddhis, how can they be an obstacle to Samadhi?

In one sense, it's true, if you think about 
the specific instructions for practice.

Or to put it another way, samadhi is the *basis*
of the TM-Sidhis, but it isn't the *goal* of the
TM-Sidhis.

As Lawson said in another post, that sutra may
be understood as a technical point about how
the siddhis sutras are to be performed (reflected
quite precisely in MMY's instructions) rather than
a warning not to use them.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi refuses to Levitate.??

2005-09-28 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tazarmfune [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 SNIP
   Hmmm. Must've missed that part. It DID say that yogic flying 
 was an 
  obstacle
   of Cosmic Consciousness (Skt.: turiyatita).
  
  Where exactly did it say that?
 
 The Yoga Sutras say (somewhere) that powers are an obstacle 
 to Samadhi. I heard that MMY comment that the translation was 
 simply bad. Since the experience of Samadhi is the very basis of 
 the siddhis, how can they be an obstacle to Samadhi?

In the inner stroke they are an obstacle [a challenge to be overcome 
to strengthen -- MMY's interpretation] samadhi. In the outer stroke 
they are siddhis [superpowers/perfections in the relative -- ditto].




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi refuses to Levitate.??

2005-09-28 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tazarmfune [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  SNIP
Hmmm. Must've missed that part. It DID say that yogic flying 
  was an 
   obstacle
of Cosmic Consciousness (Skt.: turiyatita).
   
   Where exactly did it say that?
  
  The Yoga Sutras say (somewhere) that powers are an obstacle 
  to Samadhi. I heard that MMY comment that the translation was 
  simply bad. Since the experience of Samadhi is the very basis of 
  the siddhis, how can they be an obstacle to Samadhi?
 
 In one sense, it's true, if you think about 
 the specific instructions for practice.
 
 Or to put it another way, samadhi is the *basis*
 of the TM-Sidhis, but it isn't the *goal* of the
 TM-Sidhis.
 
 As Lawson said in another post, that sutra may
 be understood as a technical point about how
 the siddhis sutras are to be performed (reflected
 quite precisely in MMY's instructions) rather than
 a warning not to use them.

Yeah. I'm really good at saying things like that... (I did?).

Actually, I think I said something like this is a description, not a 
warning, but yours is fine too.




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