[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-10 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 You might enjoy reading Hyam Maccoby's The Myth-Maker:
 Paul and the Invention of Christianity.  Maccoby is
 a Talmudic scholar and makes what seems to me to be
 a very tight case for much of what I outlined in the
 paragraph above, although needless to say it's
 controversial.  Among other very interesting points,
 he makes a stunning analysis of the components of Paul's
 theology and how they differed from what we know of
 Jesus's.
 
 Basically, Jesus wasn't attempting to start a brand-new
 religion; he was a Jewish reformer, and the early Jesus
 movement was exclusively Jewish.  Christianity's
 subsequent split from Judaism we owe to Paul.

You might also enjoy (possibly a lot more, because
you'll be laughing most of the time) Chris Moore's
lovely book, Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff,
Christ's Childhood Pal.  It takes approximately
the same view, but with humor added.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-10 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snip
 You might also enjoy (possibly a lot more, because
 you'll be laughing most of the time)

Thanks for the recommendation.

Just for the record, I love to laugh and do it at
every opportunity.  But I don't find it *more*
enjoyable than pursuing a fascinating idea.  Both
are intensely rewarding, but in different ways.

Once in a while the two coincide, and those moments
are extra-special.  But neither one by itself takes
precedence, in my experience.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-10 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 snip
  You might also enjoy (possibly a lot more, because
  you'll be laughing most of the time)
 
 Thanks for the recommendation.
 
 Just for the record, I love to laugh and do it at
 every opportunity.  But I don't find it *more*
 enjoyable than pursuing a fascinating idea.  Both
 are intensely rewarding, but in different ways.
 
 Once in a while the two coincide, and those moments
 are extra-special.  But neither one by itself takes
 precedence, in my experience.

That's exactly the thing with Chris.  There is a
trap (in my opinion) that a lot of people fall
into -- believing that to be serious about some-
thing, you have to appear to be SERIOUS.  It isn't
true.  You can examine a subject thoroughly, and
with historical accuracy (as in the case of Lamb),
but while retaining your ability to laugh at it 
all and while helping others to do the same.
Chris is a master at doing this.

Not to mention that his book is truly lovely.  He
had the opportunity to take the low road in it,
and be satirical or mocking about the Christ story.
But instead he took the plotline described in
the Gospels as...uh...gospel, and then invented
a new point of view from which to tell the same
events.  He invented Biff, this kinda gross, un-
subtle guy who grew up with Josh (Jeshua, Jesus),
and thus is the *only* person on the planet who
is not in total awe of him.  In my opinion it's
a *brilliant* concept for a book.  This is a 
fictional version of the Gospel I always wanted
to read, and never got to because the original 
authors were too emotionally involved to *not*
put Jesus up on a pedestal when writing about
him.  Biff never puts Josh on a pedestal, and
as a result you gain remarkable insights into
a story you thought you already knew.

I've given this book to priests, rabbis, Zen
masters, Tibetan lamas, etc.  ALL have thanked
me for it, and all have said that they learned
a lot about Jesus from it.  It was quite a feat
of writing for a guy who is primarily known for
his off-the-wall humorous books.

Besides, you get to learn what the H in Jesus
H. Christ stands for.  What is not to like
about that?  :-)








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-10 Thread akasha_108
Thanks.  Good information and book cite. 



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 This is certainly one take on it.  You'd get an argument
 from many orthodox Christians, however.
 
 Paul never met Jesus in the flesh; he had a mystical
 encounter, as he told it, with the risen Jesus on the
 road to Damascus (at a time when he was busy persecuting
 Christians as a hired gun for the Sadducees).  He
 converted as a result of this encounter and became
 convinced that Jesus was God.  That's not to say he
 wasn't exposed to Jesus' teachings as they had been
 preserved by Jesus' followers, but how close they were
 to what ended up in the Gospels is anyone's guess.
 
 The Gospels themselves were almost certainly tweaked
 to better conform to Paul's agenda once his faction of
 the Jesus movement had taken over.  That's where the 
 politics comes into it; Jesus' teaching had to be made
 less threatening to the Roman authorities, so Jesus
 was portrayed as more in conflict with the Pharisees
 than the Romans.  (That's one take on it, at any rate.)
 
 You might enjoy reading Hyam Maccoby's The Myth-Maker:
 Paul and the Invention of Christianity.  Maccoby is
 a Talmudic scholar and makes what seems to me to be
 a very tight case for much of what I outlined in the
 paragraph above, although needless to say it's
 controversial.  Among other very interesting points,
 he makes a stunning analysis of the components of Paul's
 theology and how they differed from what we know of
 Jesus's.
 
 Basically, Jesus wasn't attempting to start a brand-new
 religion; he was a Jewish reformer, and the early Jesus
 movement was exclusively Jewish.  Christianity's
 subsequent split from Judaism we owe to Paul.
 
  This being a long and twisting road -- a process
  in which the original Jesus could have been a substantially 
  different being than the one projected to us today.
 
 I think it would be pretty hard to argue that he wasn't
 an extraordinary chap; there isn't much question that
 he left a very strong impression, to whatever degree
 his actual teaching survived.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-09 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, eptfnj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  So far, however, it IS an interesting picture of
  Missing The Point Of The Spiritual Quest Entirely.
 
 
 Hmm, and you offer WHAT/WHO in comparison?

I offer nothing.  Nor do I attempt to sell it.
That's the business of those who have made offering
something into a business.

 You raise being clueless to an Art Form.

Cool.  My path involves turning *everything* into
an artform.  :-)

But if you're not clueless, perhaps you could explain
to me what you saw in that film that you felt conveyed
a spiritual lesson of value.  For me, it was sadly a
two-hour dissertation on sadism, and an attempt to 
make viewers feel something for Christ by portraying
in excruciating detail all the suffering that the
filmmaker -- not being enlightened -- could image an
enlightened being going through.

I *understand* that many people actually believe that
Christ's suffering somehow magically paid for *their*
sins.  But IMO this particular filmmaker must imagine
some pretty icky sins to feel that what he put onscreen
was what Christ had to go through to pay for his.

I am *not* averse to onscreen violence.  That's not
the issue.  The issue is that this film spent at least
120 of its 127 minutes dealing with Christ's supposed
suffering and only 7 minutes dealing with his teachings.
If that's not missing the point, what is?







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-09 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, eptfnj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Some friends rented it a year ago when I was vacationing with 
them.  
  We ripped it apart.   You get the impression that the phrase Jesus 
  died for your sins was really aimed at the group that voted for 
  his death.  No there is nothing much spiritual about this film.
 
 There is far less spirituality in boucing on your ass to raise
 consciousness or thinking that the orientation of your house,
 roof ornaments and other such stuff.
 
 Plain  simple - Fuck You!

Somebody's Jeezus Button got pushed.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-09 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, eptfnj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
   So far, however, it IS an interesting picture of
   Missing The Point Of The Spiritual Quest Entirely.
  
  
  Hmm, and you offer WHAT/WHO in comparison?
  
  You raise being clueless to an Art Form.
 
 He'll take that as a great compliment, I suspect.

He did.  Whereas Judy can only think Pile on!  :-)

Focusing on art -- even in cluelessness -- in my 
experience makes for a happier life than focusing 
on acting out when one's buttons get pushed.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-09 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, eptfnj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
   So far, however, it IS an interesting picture of
   Missing The Point Of The Spiritual Quest Entirely.
  
  
  Hmm, and you offer WHAT/WHO in comparison?
 
 I would think just about any other treatment of teh same subject 
 could be used in the comparison.

Exactly.  

  You raise being clueless to an Art Form.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-09 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

  You raise being clueless to an Art Form.
 
 Cool.  My path involves turning *everything* into
 an artform.  :-)
 
 But if you're not clueless, perhaps you could explain
 to me what you saw in that film that you felt conveyed
 a spiritual lesson of value.  For me, it was sadly a
 two-hour dissertation on sadism, and an attempt to 
 make viewers feel something for Christ by portraying
 in excruciating detail all the suffering that the
 filmmaker -- not being enlightened -- could image an
 enlightened being going through.
 
 I *understand* that many people actually believe that
 Christ's suffering somehow magically paid for *their*
 sins.  But IMO this particular filmmaker must imagine
 some pretty icky sins to feel that what he put onscreen
 was what Christ had to go through to pay for his.
 
 I am *not* averse to onscreen violence.  That's not
 the issue.  The issue is that this film spent at least
 120 of its 127 minutes dealing with Christ's supposed
 suffering and only 7 minutes dealing with his teachings.
 If that's not missing the point, what is?

To balance this, many aspects of the film were
praiseworthy.  I thought the casting was good,
and the use of the real Aramaic, Latin and 
Hebrew was really fascinating, and added to my
understanding.  Visually, the film was probably
as accurate a portrayal of the times as has 
been put onscreen.  It felt in many places like
a documentary, a dispassionate look at The Passion.

But that's my problem with the film.  It may be
only *my* problem, but as long as it is, I should
try to make it an artform.  :-)

The dispassion of the film was what got to me.
Maybe that's because it worked.  Maybe Mel was
making a commentary on what decades of watching
onscreen violence has done to our sensibilities,
and our ability to feel compassion for the 
victims of violence.  Maybe he was trying to 
show what violence really looks like, by showing
it done to Christ.  I don't know.  I actually
plan to see the film again at some point, to help
me figure out what he was really trying to say
in it.  He's a good filmmaker IMO, and I think I 
owe this film a second chance.

It's just that the *focus* seems somehow WAY OFF
to me.  If I were a strong believer in Christ as
my primary spiritual teacher, and wanted to do
justice to the inspiration and light he had brought
to my life, I don't think that I would have made a
film focusing on people pounding the shit out of 
him.  I would have focused on his teachings.

But maybe that's just me.  And as we all know, I 
am not only clueless, but artsy-fartsy about it.  :-)







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-09 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 It's just that the *focus* seems somehow WAY OFF
 to me.  If I were a strong believer in Christ as
 my primary spiritual teacher, and wanted to do
 justice to the inspiration and light he had brought
 to my life, I don't think that I would have made a
 film focusing on people pounding the shit out of 
 him.  I would have focused on his teachings.

For example, here is a lyric of Bruce Cockburn's,
from his song Cry Of A Tiny Babe.  Bruce is a
strong Christian, but one who doesn't wear it on
his sleeve and talk about it all the time.  In 
over 30 years of recording, he has only released
a handful of overtly Christian songs.  When he
does, it's worth noting.  This is *his* take on
his teacher:


Mary grows a child without the help of a man
Joseph get upset because he doesn't understand
Angel comes to Joseph in a powerful dream
Says God did this and you're part of his scheme
Joseph comes to Mary with his hat in his hand
Says forgive me I thought you'd been with some other man
She says what if I had been - but I wasn't anyway and guess what
I felt the baby kick today

Like a stone on the surface of a still river
Driving the ripples on forever
Redemption rips through the surface of time
In the cry of a tiny babe

The child is born in the fullness of time
Three wise astrologers take note of the signs
Come to pay their respects to the fragile little king
Get pretty close to wrecking everything
'Cause the governing body of the whole land
Is that of Herod, a paranoid man
Who when he hears there's a baby born King of the Jews
Sends death squads to kill all male children under two
But that same bright angel warns the parents in a dream
And they head out for the border and get away clean

Like a stone on the surface of a still river
Driving the ripples on forever
Redemption rips through the surface of time
In the cry of a tiny babe

There are others who know about this miracle birth
The humblest of people catch a glimpse of their worth
For it isn't to the palace that the Christ child comes
But to shepherds and street people, hookers and bums
And the message is clear if you've got ears to hear
That forgiveness is given for your guilt and your fear
It's a Christmas gift you don't have to buy
There's a future shining in a baby's eyes

Like a stone on the surface of a still river
Driving the ripples on forever
Redemption rips through the surface of time
In the cry of a tiny babe








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-09 Thread TurquoiseB
If you've never heard the song, think Delta Blues
to get a feel for the rhythm:

 Mary grows a child without the help of a man
 Joseph get upset because he doesn't understand
 Angel comes to Joseph in a powerful dream
 Says God did this and you're part of his scheme
 Joseph comes to Mary with his hat in his hand
 Says forgive me I thought you'd been with some other man
 She says what if I had been - but I wasn't anyway and guess what
 I felt the baby kick today
 
 Like a stone on the surface of a still river
 Driving the ripples on forever
 Redemption rips through the surface of time
 In the cry of a tiny babe
 
 The child is born in the fullness of time
 Three wise astrologers take note of the signs
 Come to pay their respects to the fragile little king
 Get pretty close to wrecking everything
 'Cause the governing body of the whole land
 Is that of Herod, a paranoid man
 Who when he hears there's a baby born King of the Jews
 Sends death squads to kill all male children under two
 But that same bright angel warns the parents in a dream
 And they head out for the border and get away clean
 
 Like a stone on the surface of a still river
 Driving the ripples on forever
 Redemption rips through the surface of time
 In the cry of a tiny babe
 
 There are others who know about this miracle birth
 The humblest of people catch a glimpse of their worth
 For it isn't to the palace that the Christ child comes
 But to shepherds and street people, hookers and bums
 And the message is clear if you've got ears to hear
 That forgiveness is given for your guilt and your fear
 It's a Christmas gift you don't have to buy
 There's a future shining in a baby's eyes
 
 Like a stone on the surface of a still river
 Driving the ripples on forever
 Redemption rips through the surface of time
 In the cry of a tiny babe







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-09 Thread Peter


--- TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 snip

 
 To balance this, many aspects of the film were
 praiseworthy.  I thought the casting was good,
 and the use of the real Aramaic, Latin and 
 Hebrew was really fascinating, and added to my
 understanding.  Visually, the film was probably
 as accurate a portrayal of the times as has 
 been put onscreen.  It felt in many places like
 a documentary, a dispassionate look at The Passion.
 
 But that's my problem with the film.  It may be
 only *my* problem, but as long as it is, I should
 try to make it an artform.  :-)
 
 The dispassion of the film was what got to me.
 Maybe that's because it worked.  Maybe Mel was
 making a commentary on what decades of watching
 onscreen violence has done to our sensibilities,
 and our ability to feel compassion for the 
 victims of violence.  Maybe he was trying to 
 show what violence really looks like, by showing
 it done to Christ.  I don't know.  I actually
 plan to see the film again at some point, to help
 me figure out what he was really trying to say
 in it.  He's a good filmmaker IMO, and I think I 
 owe this film a second chance.
 
 It's just that the *focus* seems somehow WAY OFF
 to me.  If I were a strong believer in Christ as
 my primary spiritual teacher, and wanted to do
 justice to the inspiration and light he had brought
 to my life, I don't think that I would have made a
 film focusing on people pounding the shit out of 
 him.  I would have focused on his teachings.
 
 But maybe that's just me.  And as we all know, I 
 am not only clueless, but artsy-fartsy about it. 
 :-)

Well said. I thought it was a great film even though
it was skewed towards a certain understanding of
Jesus. I wish Mel had done a mini series type film
that you see every few years on TV about Christ. Even
with their bumps and warts they are deeply moving. The
scene of Jesus carrying his cross up to his
crucifixtion and the different reactions of people on
his way was incredible. 


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-09 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
snip
 But if you're not clueless, perhaps you could explain
 to me what you saw in that film that you felt conveyed
 a spiritual lesson of value.  For me, it was sadly a
 two-hour dissertation on sadism, and an attempt to 
 make viewers feel something for Christ by portraying
 in excruciating detail all the suffering that the
 filmmaker -- not being enlightened -- could image an
 enlightened being going through.
 
 I *understand* that many people actually believe that
 Christ's suffering somehow magically paid for *their*
 sins.  But IMO this particular filmmaker must imagine
 some pretty icky sins to feel that what he put onscreen
 was what Christ had to go through to pay for his.

To play, er, devil's advocate (and I haven't seen the
film, I'm just commenting on what you said in light
of what I've heard and read), I wonder if you haven't
inadvertently put your finger right on it.

It seems to me that Christianity has two aspects, one
being Jesus's teaching about how to treat others, and
the other how one should view one's relationship to
God.  The latter is really Paul's teaching rather than
that of Jesus.

I've always thought Paul's teaching was psychologically
brilliant, in that it mandates letting go of the
perception that one's inability to be perfect is a
barrier between oneself and God: If God has forgiven
you via the suffering of his own purported son, who
are you not to forgive yourself?

From what I've heard and read of born-again-type
experiences, they frequently involve a sense of
enormous *relief* at being able to drop one's guilt
for not being perfect, and a consequent sense of
liberation: I'm not OK, and that's OK. (Not that one
now has permission to sin, not that one isn't still
responsible for one's past sins, but that those past
sins don't get between oneself and God.)

This sense of liberation seems to enable many people
to get a fresh start.

But there are still some who may not get it on a gut
level, or the experience of liberation may not last.
They're unable to fully believe it.

So I'd speculate that perhaps the purpose of the film
is to renew and reinforce the belief that they've been
forgiven, in exactly the way you just suggested--no
matter *how* awful your sins, Jesus's suffering was
worse.  There's no way you can continue to think your
sins weren't paid for when you see how horribly he
suffered.

I'd also guess the film reflects the thought
processes that Mel Gibson himself has found helpful
in his attempt to overcome his own guilt and accept
that his sins have been paid for.  It's not so much
a matter of one's sins being particularly icky, but
rather portraying Jesus's suffering as *so* extreme
that one's sins seem trivial by comparison.

Conceptually, it sure doesn't ring my chimes, and I
serioiusly doubt it would do anything for me if I
actually saw the film.  The idea that a loving God
would even dream of holding your sins against you
makes no sense to me at all, let alone that God
would sacrifice his son to wipe the slate clean,
etc., etc.

But apparently watching the film has been a deeply
spiritual experience for many.  The dynamic I
outlined above is the only way I can understand how
that could possibly be the case, given the mindset
that God must somehow be reconciled to sinners.

 I am *not* averse to onscreen violence.  That's not
 the issue.  The issue is that this film spent at least
 120 of its 127 minutes dealing with Christ's supposed
 suffering and only 7 minutes dealing with his teachings.
 If that's not missing the point, what is?

But perhaps it's really dealing with *Paul's* teaching,
about Jesus's suffering having been redemptive.  Perhaps
for some it's necessary to get *that* teaching before
they can be truly open to Jesus's teaching about how
to treat others.

(Although, given the behavior of many Christians, even
that isn't enough.)






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-09 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
snip
 I wish Mel had done a mini series type film
 that you see every few years on TV about Christ. Even
 with their bumps and warts they are deeply moving. The
 scene of Jesus carrying his cross up to his
 crucifixtion and the different reactions of people on
 his way was incredible. 

If you're referring to Zeffirelli's Jesus of 
Nazareth, I agree, it has some wonderful moments
(along with some perfectly dreadful ones).

I think my favorite is the scene where Jesus explains
to Nicodemus, played by Laurence Olivier, what it
means to be born again.  It's a very subtle bit of
acting on Olivier's part: he actually gets it--perhaps
has suspected it for a while--but can't quite convince
himself it's possible.  When he poses his objections,
he's not arrogantly challenging Jesus but rather begging
him to say the word that will finally remove all his
doubt.

My other favorite scene is where tough-guy Peter (James
Farentino) meets Jesus for the first time and simply
melts in his presence.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-09 Thread Peter


--- authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 snip
  I wish Mel had done a mini series type film
  that you see every few years on TV about Christ.
 Even
  with their bumps and warts they are deeply moving.
 The
  scene of Jesus carrying his cross up to his
  crucifixtion and the different reactions of people
 on
  his way was incredible. 
 
 If you're referring to Zeffirelli's Jesus of 
 Nazareth, I agree, it has some wonderful moments
 (along with some perfectly dreadful ones).
 
 I think my favorite is the scene where Jesus
 explains
 to Nicodemus, played by Laurence Olivier, what it
 means to be born again.  It's a very subtle bit of
 acting on Olivier's part: he actually gets
 it--perhaps
 has suspected it for a while--but can't quite
 convince
 himself it's possible.  When he poses his
 objections,
 he's not arrogantly challenging Jesus but rather
 begging
 him to say the word that will finally remove all his
 doubt.
 
 My other favorite scene is where tough-guy Peter
 (James
 Farentino) meets Jesus for the first time and simply
 melts in his presence.

That is one of the best ones. When I first watched it
on TV many years ago I had a very powerful spiritual
experience. I was watching the scene with Peter
denying Christ and scurrying around trying to hide
from people. I was thinking about this event in
archetypal terms as people denying their own divinity
when suddenly (it's always suddenly) I realized that I
was the Christ. I just sat there stunned by this
self-evident truth. I went into my room and looked at
a picture of MMY and Guru Dev and clearly saw Christ
shining through their eyes too. Then I realized that
everybody is Christ. I also clearly realized that the 
story of Christ, the typical passion play, is so
powerful because it is occuring every moment for
everyone. It's the very structure of consciousness
itself. 

Did you see the most recent TV passion play mini
series several years ago? It had the woman who plays
in Will and Grace in it as Mary Magdalene. It was
quite good too (even with its dreadful parts). They
emphasized the human, casual side of Jesus.  





 
 
 
 
 
 
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-09 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
snip
 That is one of the best ones. When I first watched it
 on TV many years ago I had a very powerful spiritual
 experience. I was watching the scene with Peter
 denying Christ and scurrying around trying to hide
 from people. I was thinking about this event in
 archetypal terms as people denying their own divinity
 when suddenly (it's always suddenly) I realized that I
 was the Christ. I just sat there stunned by this
 self-evident truth. I went into my room and looked at
 a picture of MMY and Guru Dev and clearly saw Christ
 shining through their eyes too. Then I realized that
 everybody is Christ. I also clearly realized that the 
 story of Christ, the typical passion play, is so
 powerful because it is occuring every moment for
 everyone. It's the very structure of consciousness
 itself.

Interesting.  (As you know, I object to terms like
deny in this context because they imply
intentionality, but that's a quibble to your main
point.)

It would be neat if somebody would make a Jesus movie
based on the we-are-all-Christ idea, or, even better,
one that was designed to convey the experience.

How would you go about it?

I'd also love to see somebody do a film of Paul's
life and work.  Maybe that would be an even better
way to approach it, because he does give some hints
in his letters--Not I, but Christ who lives in me,
and so on.  Jesus doesn't seem to have taught this
explicitly, at least from the Gospel record.  Wonder
why not?

 Did you see the most recent TV passion play mini
 series several years ago? It had the woman who plays
 in Will and Grace in it as Mary Magdalene. It was
 quite good too (even with its dreadful parts). They
 emphasized the human, casual side of Jesus.  

If I did, I've forgotten it, I'm afraid!  Who played
Jesus, do you recall?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-09 Thread akasha_108
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED]  

 But if you're not clueless, perhaps you could explain
 to me what you saw in that film that you felt conveyed
 a spiritual lesson of value.  

Was the purpose of the film to provide a spiritual lesson? Paricularly
was it to provide spiritual lessons to non-christians?

 For me, it was sadly a
 two-hour dissertation on sadism, and an attempt to 
 make viewers feel something for Christ by portraying
 in excruciating detail all the suffering that the
 filmmaker -- not being enlightened

And how do you know he is not enlightened? What are the outer signs
that give that away? Would the absence of those signs be markers for
enlightenment?

 -- could image an
 enlightened being going through.

Was Jesus enlightened? Same questions as above, but inverted.


 I *understand* that many people actually believe that
 Christ's suffering somehow magically paid for *their*
 sins.  But IMO this particular filmmaker must imagine
 some pretty icky sins to feel that what he put onscreen
 was what Christ had to go through to pay for his.

I haven't seen the film But I can't imagine its conveys things more
icky than the lower parts of human behavior over the past 2000 yrs.
(Ironically, a lot of which, massive gore and brutality, was in the
name of Christ)
 
 I am *not* averse to onscreen violence.  That's not
 the issue.  The issue is that this film spent at least
 120 of its 127 minutes dealing with Christ's supposed
 suffering and only 7 minutes dealing with his teachings.

To some, it appears, that Christ's suffering for our sins is his
central teaching. If so, for those, its 127 minutes of a visualization
of his core teaching. It would appear.

 If that's not missing the point, what is?

Or missing your point? -- that is, a film about Jesus does not meet
your expectations about what a film about Jesus should be about. To
say that the film missed Mel's point -- you'd have to make a stronger
case.









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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-09 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 snip
  But if you're not clueless, perhaps you could explain
  to me what you saw in that film that you felt conveyed
  a spiritual lesson of value.  For me, it was sadly a
  two-hour dissertation on sadism, and an attempt to 
  make viewers feel something for Christ by portraying
  in excruciating detail all the suffering that the
  filmmaker -- not being enlightened -- could image an
  enlightened being going through.
  
  I *understand* that many people actually believe that
  Christ's suffering somehow magically paid for *their*
  sins.  But IMO this particular filmmaker must imagine
  some pretty icky sins to feel that what he put onscreen
  was what Christ had to go through to pay for his.
 
 To play, er, devil's advocate (and I haven't seen the
 film, I'm just commenting on what you said in light
 of what I've heard and read), I wonder if you haven't
 inadvertently put your finger right on it.
 
 It seems to me that Christianity has two aspects, one
 being Jesus's teaching about how to treat others, and
 the other how one should view one's relationship to
 God.  The latter is really Paul's teaching rather than
 that of Jesus.
 
 I've always thought Paul's teaching was psychologically
 brilliant, in that it mandates letting go of the
 perception that one's inability to be perfect is a
 barrier between oneself and God: If God has forgiven
 you via the suffering of his own purported son, who
 are you not to forgive yourself?
 
 From what I've heard and read of born-again-type
 experiences, they frequently involve a sense of
 enormous *relief* at being able to drop one's guilt
 for not being perfect, and a consequent sense of
 liberation: I'm not OK, and that's OK. (Not that one
 now has permission to sin, not that one isn't still
 responsible for one's past sins, but that those past
 sins don't get between oneself and God.)
 
 This sense of liberation seems to enable many people
 to get a fresh start.
 
 But there are still some who may not get it on a gut
 level, or the experience of liberation may not last.
 They're unable to fully believe it.
 
 So I'd speculate that perhaps the purpose of the film
 is to renew and reinforce the belief that they've been
 forgiven, in exactly the way you just suggested--no
 matter *how* awful your sins, Jesus's suffering was
 worse.  There's no way you can continue to think your
 sins weren't paid for when you see how horribly he
 suffered.

Nice post.  Nice insights.  That might actually
be it.  
 
 I'd also guess the film reflects the thought
 processes that Mel Gibson himself has found helpful
 in his attempt to overcome his own guilt and accept
 that his sins have been paid for.  It's not so much
 a matter of one's sins being particularly icky, but
 rather portraying Jesus's suffering as *so* extreme
 that one's sins seem trivial by comparison.

That's probably true, too.  The fascinating 
thing is, Christ's suffering wasn't that unique,
even in the realm of spiritual teachers.  Histor-
ically, the world is not always kind to teachers
who rock the S.S. Status Quo with radical ideas
like liberation.  Buddhist teachers and saints 
have been murdered and tortured, as have their
counterparts in the Hindu world.  Sufi masters
who managed to rock the boat a bit too much have
been boiled alive.

The part I have trouble with in focusing on the
crucifiction and on Christ's suffering is that by
elevating and glorifying it as The Ultimate
Suffering, in a way you're making a mockery of
the suffering of the thousands of other people 
who were crucified by the Romans.  Were they not 
treated pretty much the way Christ was in Mel's 
movie?  Was their suffering somehow less?

For me, not being a Christian, I find inspiration
in the nobility of Christ's sacrifice, just on the
level of *teaching*.  He was willing to be put to
death, rather than stop teaching people.  That's
enough for me.  That inspires and uplifts me.  I 
don't have to believe that his death mitigated 
all my karmas.

 Conceptually, it sure doesn't ring my chimes, and I
 serioiusly doubt it would do anything for me if I
 actually saw the film.  The idea that a loving God
 would even dream of holding your sins against you
 makes no sense to me at all, let alone that God
 would sacrifice his son to wipe the slate clean,
 etc., etc.
 
 But apparently watching the film has been a deeply
 spiritual experience for many.  

And possibly for me as well.  I reacted to it.  It
pushed my buttons.  For that reason alone I will see
it again.  I do that with all films that push my
buttons.  I feel like I have to see them again to 
figure out why it pushed my button (as a kind of
spiritual exercise) and how the director did it 
(as a kind of creative exercise).  I actually look
forward to watching it again, in a more relaxed
environment than Paris.

 The dynamic I
 outlined 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-09 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
 
  But if you're not clueless, perhaps you could explain
  to me what you saw in that film that you felt conveyed
  a spiritual lesson of value.  
 
 Was the purpose of the film to provide a spiritual lesson? 
 Paricularly was it to provide spiritual lessons to non-
 christians?

Making it was certainly a bit of a spiritual quest
for Mel Gibson, if what I read about the film was
correct.  I don't really know what his message in
the film was, if there was one.

  For me, it was sadly a
  two-hour dissertation on sadism, and an attempt to 
  make viewers feel something for Christ by portraying
  in excruciating detail all the suffering that the
  filmmaker -- not being enlightened
 
 And how do you know he is not enlightened? What are the outer signs
 that give that away? Would the absence of those signs be markers for
 enlightenment?

Good point.  Good thing he didn't go into spiritual
teaching.  We're gossiping about a few women who
may or may not have found Bevan attractive enough
to sleep with.  Imagine if your guru was Mel Gibson.  :-)

  -- could image an
  enlightened being going through.
 
 Was Jesus enlightened? Same questions as above, but inverted.

I don't know, but I suspect the dude was pretty high.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-09 Thread akasha_108
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED]   
  Was Jesus enlightened? Same questions as above, but inverted.
 
 I don't know, but I suspect the dude was pretty high.

He may have been. Its also possible that he was a rather simple man,
and 2000 years of hype have made us think he must have been a high
saint. History is written by the victors. And the victors, for
political reasons, adopted christianity as  the state religion. And
thus it spread. Via political santion and presumably heavy hype and
PR. Not because of grass roots effectivness -- or surely not solely
due to that.

And  Jesus taught for only 2 years. In small backwards villages for
the most part. Though he died at the same age as Shankara, the
latter's contribution to spritual knowledge seems far vaster. But
perhaps that is largely hype -- some say others wrote a lot of the
things attributed to Shankara. What other world teacher taught to
small hinterland groups for 2 years -- and that was it? 

And maybe jesus didn't die on the cross, and was not resurected. Some
say he died in India / Tibet / Nepal at a ripe old age. And yet that
teacher's work, if it existed, did not survive as a world religion. If
the legend is true, then its pretty ironic and telling. Political
power and hype created a world religion based on 2 years of
back-waters preaching of a teacher in first few years of teaching
(when the message is often getting formulated and is still raw) -- and
50 subsequent years of refinement and further exploration of the
knowledge, and personal growth, are lost or ignored.









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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-09 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
snip
  So I'd speculate that perhaps the purpose of the film
  is to renew and reinforce the belief that they've been
  forgiven, in exactly the way you just suggested--no
  matter *how* awful your sins, Jesus's suffering was
  worse.  There's no way you can continue to think your
  sins weren't paid for when you see how horribly he
  suffered.
snip
 For me, not being a Christian, I find inspiration
 in the nobility of Christ's sacrifice, just on the
 level of *teaching*.  He was willing to be put to
 death, rather than stop teaching people.  That's
 enough for me.  That inspires and uplifts me.  I 
 don't have to believe that his death mitigated 
 all my karmas.

Same here, and for the same reasons.  On the other
hand, I don't believe Jesus was God's son, or was
God, in any special sense.  Maybe if one believes
that, his suffering takes on much greater 
significance than the suffering of thousands of
mere human beans.

snip
   I am *not* averse to onscreen violence.  That's not
   the issue.  The issue is that this film spent at least
   120 of its 127 minutes dealing with Christ's supposed
   suffering and only 7 minutes dealing with his teachings.
   If that's not missing the point, what is?
  
  But perhaps it's really dealing with *Paul's* teaching,
  about Jesus's suffering having been redemptive.  Perhaps
  for some it's necessary to get *that* teaching before
  they can be truly open to Jesus's teaching about how
  to treat others.
 
 It's possible.  Are you suggesting that the guilt
 that they feel over their own thoughts and actions 
 is so strong that they have to get past it by 
 believing in the redemption of Christ before they
 can be open to being nicer people?  That's an
 interesting idea, one I shall have to ponder.

Sure.  If you don't believe you can ever be worthy
in God's eyes, why bother even trying to be a good
person?

It's not necessarily a neat, clear, conscious equation,
of course.  But bear in mind a lot of psychotherapy
attempts to do the same thing, rid people of their
guilt, because it's believed to cause major problems
that keep people from realizing their potential and
certainly from being happy.

If you think about it, in a way it's very much like
your Appreciate the Now thing, getting rid of your 
baggage and attachments.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-09 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
 
   Was Jesus enlightened? Same questions as above, but inverted.
  
  I don't know, but I suspect the dude was pretty high.
 
 He may have been. Its also possible that he was a rather simple man,
 and 2000 years of hype have made us think he must have been a high
 saint. History is written by the victors. And the victors, for
 political reasons, adopted christianity as  the state religion. And
 thus it spread. Via political santion and presumably heavy hype and
 PR. Not because of grass roots effectivness -- or surely not solely
 due to that.
 
 And  Jesus taught for only 2 years. In small backwards villages for
 the most part. Though he died at the same age as Shankara, the
 latter's contribution to spritual knowledge seems far vaster. But
 perhaps that is largely hype -- some say others wrote a lot of the
 things attributed to Shankara. What other world teacher taught to
 small hinterland groups for 2 years -- and that was it?

There were really two stages involved.  The first was
about what one would expect in the case of an extremely
charismatic back-to-basics reformer at a time when his
audience was desperately hoping for a Messiah to help
them throw off the Roman yoke.  On a grassroots level,
and in a rather limited area, his teaching was highly
effective.

But if Paul hadn't come along decades later and started
preaching universal redemption, the Jesus movement might
well have died out.  Because Paul opened Christianity
to gentiles and upped the stakes significantly, it 
acquired a much broader appeal; in Paul's hands, it
also became less of a threat to the powers that be
because it focused on eternal life rather than revolt
against oppression.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-09 Thread akasha_108
Akasha:
Was Jesus enlightened? Same questions as above, but inverted.
Unc: 
   I don't know, but I suspect the dude was pretty high.

A:
  He may have been. Its also possible that he was a rather simple
man, and 2000 years of hype have made us think he must have been a
high saint. History is written by the victors. And the victors, for
political reasons, adopted christianity as  the state religion. And
thus it spread. Via political santion and presumably heavy hype and
PR. Not because of grass roots effectivness -- or surely not solely
due to that.

And  Jesus taught for only 2 years. In small backwards villages for
the most part. Though he died at the same age as Shankara, the
latter's contribution to spritual knowledge seems far vaster. But
perhaps that is largely hype -- some say others wrote a lot of the
things attributed to Shankara. What other world teacher taught to
small hinterland groups for 2 years -- and that was it?

Judy: 
 There were really two stages involved.  The first was
 about what one would expect in the case of an extremely
 charismatic back-to-basics reformer at a time when his
 audience was desperately hoping for a Messiah to help
 them throw off the Roman yoke.  On a grassroots level,
 and in a rather limited area, his teaching was highly
 effective.
 
 But if Paul hadn't come along decades later and started
 preaching universal redemption, the Jesus movement might
 well have died out.  Because Paul opened Christianity
 to gentiles and upped the stakes significantly, it 
 acquired a much broader appeal; in Paul's hands, it
 also became less of a threat to the powers that be
 because it focused on eternal life rather than revolt
 against oppression.

All good points. And I think provide more substance for my intended
thought: that favorable histories and hype (meant in the broadest
sense of positioning, refocussing, revamping, extolling, etc) may have
substantially changed the original message and embodiment of Jesus
into something vastly different than the real Jesus and his message. 

From what you point out, as I understand it, Paul did not teach what
Jesus taught but rather forlumated Paulism -- and Christianity over
the years has transformed and reshaped Paulism in ways perhaps
unrecognizable to even Paul -- much less Jesus with respect to his
original teachings. This being a long and twisting road -- a process
in which the original Jesus could have been a substantially different
being than the one projected to us today.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-09 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 Akasha:
 Was Jesus enlightened? Same questions as above, but 
inverted.
 Unc: 
I don't know, but I suspect the dude was pretty high.
 
 A:
   He may have been. Its also possible that he was a rather simple
 man, and 2000 years of hype have made us think he must have been a
 high saint. History is written by the victors. And the victors, for
 political reasons, adopted christianity as  the state religion. And
 thus it spread. Via political santion and presumably heavy hype and
 PR. Not because of grass roots effectivness -- or surely not solely
 due to that.
 
 And  Jesus taught for only 2 years. In small backwards villages for
 the most part. Though he died at the same age as Shankara, the
 latter's contribution to spritual knowledge seems far vaster. But
 perhaps that is largely hype -- some say others wrote a lot of the
 things attributed to Shankara. What other world teacher taught to
 small hinterland groups for 2 years -- and that was it?
 
 Judy: 
  There were really two stages involved.  The first was
  about what one would expect in the case of an extremely
  charismatic back-to-basics reformer at a time when his
  audience was desperately hoping for a Messiah to help
  them throw off the Roman yoke.  On a grassroots level,
  and in a rather limited area, his teaching was highly
  effective.
  
  But if Paul hadn't come along decades later and started
  preaching universal redemption, the Jesus movement might
  well have died out.  Because Paul opened Christianity
  to gentiles and upped the stakes significantly, it 
  acquired a much broader appeal; in Paul's hands, it
  also became less of a threat to the powers that be
  because it focused on eternal life rather than revolt
  against oppression.
 
 All good points. And I think provide more substance for my intended
 thought: that favorable histories and hype (meant in the 
 broadest sense of positioning, refocussing, revamping, extolling, 
 etc) may have substantially changed the original message and 
 embodiment of Jesus into something vastly different than the real 
 Jesus and his message. 

Right.  It wasn't just political, though, it was at
least partly theological; that's the main point I
wanted to make.

 From what you point out, as I understand it, Paul did not teach what
 Jesus taught but rather forlumated Paulism -- and Christianity 
 over the years has transformed and reshaped Paulism in ways perhaps
 unrecognizable to even Paul -- much less Jesus with respect to his
 original teachings.

This is certainly one take on it.  You'd get an argument
from many orthodox Christians, however.

Paul never met Jesus in the flesh; he had a mystical
encounter, as he told it, with the risen Jesus on the
road to Damascus (at a time when he was busy persecuting
Christians as a hired gun for the Sadducees).  He
converted as a result of this encounter and became
convinced that Jesus was God.  That's not to say he
wasn't exposed to Jesus' teachings as they had been
preserved by Jesus' followers, but how close they were
to what ended up in the Gospels is anyone's guess.

The Gospels themselves were almost certainly tweaked
to better conform to Paul's agenda once his faction of
the Jesus movement had taken over.  That's where the 
politics comes into it; Jesus' teaching had to be made
less threatening to the Roman authorities, so Jesus
was portrayed as more in conflict with the Pharisees
than the Romans.  (That's one take on it, at any rate.)

You might enjoy reading Hyam Maccoby's The Myth-Maker:
Paul and the Invention of Christianity.  Maccoby is
a Talmudic scholar and makes what seems to me to be
a very tight case for much of what I outlined in the
paragraph above, although needless to say it's
controversial.  Among other very interesting points,
he makes a stunning analysis of the components of Paul's
theology and how they differed from what we know of
Jesus's.

Basically, Jesus wasn't attempting to start a brand-new
religion; he was a Jewish reformer, and the early Jesus
movement was exclusively Jewish.  Christianity's
subsequent split from Judaism we owe to Paul.

 This being a long and twisting road -- a process
 in which the original Jesus could have been a substantially 
 different being than the one projected to us today.

I think it would be pretty hard to argue that he wasn't
an extraordinary chap; there isn't much question that
he left a very strong impression, to whatever degree
his actual teaching survived.
 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-09 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
snip
   But if Paul hadn't come along decades later and started
   preaching universal redemption, the Jesus movement might
   well have died out.  Because Paul opened Christianity
   to gentiles and upped the stakes significantly, it 
   acquired a much broader appeal; in Paul's hands, it
   also became less of a threat to the powers that be
   because it focused on eternal life rather than revolt
   against oppression.

I should clarify this: Jesus himself wasn't preaching
revolt against oppression, as far as we know.  But
the prophesied Jewish Messiah was perceived by many
to be a political leader who with God's help would
free the Jews from Roman rule.  So Jesus' popular
support and the rumors that he was that Messiah led
the Romans to view him as a potential troublemaker.

The idea of the Resurrection is also an element in
the mix that changed the orientation of the original
Jesus movement, but that's a whole 'nother question.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-09 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, eptfnj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
   So far, however, it IS an interesting picture of
   Missing The Point Of The Spiritual Quest Entirely.
  
  
  Hmm, and you offer WHAT/WHO in comparison?
 
 I offer nothing.  Nor do I attempt to sell it.
 That's the business of those who have made offering
 something into a business.
 
  You raise being clueless to an Art Form.
 
 Cool.  My path involves turning *everything* into
 an artform.  :-)
 
 But if you're not clueless, perhaps you could explain
 to me what you saw in that film that you felt conveyed
 a spiritual lesson of value.  For me, it was sadly a
 two-hour dissertation on sadism, and an attempt to 
 make viewers feel something for Christ by portraying
 in excruciating detail all the suffering that the
 filmmaker -- not being enlightened -- could image an
 enlightened being going through.
 
 I *understand* that many people actually believe that
 Christ's suffering somehow magically paid for *their*
 sins.  But IMO this particular filmmaker must imagine
 some pretty icky sins to feel that what he put onscreen
 was what Christ had to go through to pay for his.
 
 I am *not* averse to onscreen violence.  That's not
 the issue.  The issue is that this film spent at least
 120 of its 127 minutes dealing with Christ's supposed
 suffering and only 7 minutes dealing with his teachings.
 If that's not missing the point, what is?


In the context of suffering, the film misses the point, which is that 
Jesus gave up *Godhood* to pay for our sins. The visible suffering 
was allegorical, and nothing in comparison to the loss of deityhood.

This is explicit in the Bible, and the movie apparently misses that 
literally all-important point (from a Christian Redemption 
perspective).






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-09 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, eptfnj [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
So far, however, it IS an interesting picture of
Missing The Point Of The Spiritual Quest Entirely.
   
   
   Hmm, and you offer WHAT/WHO in comparison?
  
  I offer nothing.  Nor do I attempt to sell it.
  That's the business of those who have made offering
  something into a business.
  
   You raise being clueless to an Art Form.
  
  Cool.  My path involves turning *everything* into
  an artform.  :-)
  
  But if you're not clueless, perhaps you could explain
  to me what you saw in that film that you felt conveyed
  a spiritual lesson of value.  For me, it was sadly a
  two-hour dissertation on sadism, and an attempt to 
  make viewers feel something for Christ by portraying
  in excruciating detail all the suffering that the
  filmmaker -- not being enlightened -- could image an
  enlightened being going through.
  
  I *understand* that many people actually believe that
  Christ's suffering somehow magically paid for *their*
  sins.  But IMO this particular filmmaker must imagine
  some pretty icky sins to feel that what he put onscreen
  was what Christ had to go through to pay for his.
  
  I am *not* averse to onscreen violence.  That's not
  the issue.  The issue is that this film spent at least
  120 of its 127 minutes dealing with Christ's supposed
  suffering and only 7 minutes dealing with his teachings.
  If that's not missing the point, what is?
 
 In the context of suffering, the film misses the point, which is
 that Jesus gave up *Godhood* to pay for our sins. The visible 
 suffering was allegorical, and nothing in comparison to the loss of 
 deityhood.
 
 This is explicit in the Bible, and the movie apparently misses that 
 literally all-important point (from a Christian Redemption 
 perspective).

You'll get an argument on this from some orthodox
Christians, i.e., he only *appeared* to give up his
divinity.  On the other hand, he never lost his
humanity, either--he was 100% God and 100% human at
all times.

At worst, he momentarily forgot his divinity on the
Cross.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-09 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, eptfnj [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   wrote:
 So far, however, it IS an interesting picture of
 Missing The Point Of The Spiritual Quest Entirely.


Hmm, and you offer WHAT/WHO in comparison?
   
   I offer nothing.  Nor do I attempt to sell it.
   That's the business of those who have made offering
   something into a business.
   
You raise being clueless to an Art Form.
   
   Cool.  My path involves turning *everything* into
   an artform.  :-)
   
   But if you're not clueless, perhaps you could explain
   to me what you saw in that film that you felt conveyed
   a spiritual lesson of value.  For me, it was sadly a
   two-hour dissertation on sadism, and an attempt to 
   make viewers feel something for Christ by portraying
   in excruciating detail all the suffering that the
   filmmaker -- not being enlightened -- could image an
   enlightened being going through.
   
   I *understand* that many people actually believe that
   Christ's suffering somehow magically paid for *their*
   sins.  But IMO this particular filmmaker must imagine
   some pretty icky sins to feel that what he put onscreen
   was what Christ had to go through to pay for his.
   
   I am *not* averse to onscreen violence.  That's not
   the issue.  The issue is that this film spent at least
   120 of its 127 minutes dealing with Christ's supposed
   suffering and only 7 minutes dealing with his teachings.
   If that's not missing the point, what is?
  
  In the context of suffering, the film misses the point, which is
  that Jesus gave up *Godhood* to pay for our sins. The visible 
  suffering was allegorical, and nothing in comparison to the loss 
of 
  deityhood.
  
  This is explicit in the Bible, and the movie apparently misses 
that 
  literally all-important point (from a Christian Redemption 
  perspective).
 
 You'll get an argument on this from some orthodox
 Christians, i.e., he only *appeared* to give up his
 divinity.  On the other hand, he never lost his
 humanity, either--he was 100% God and 100% human at
 all times.
 
 At worst, he momentarily forgot his divinity on the
 Cross.


Still, that was his Ultimate Suffering, according to the bible.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-09 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, eptfnj [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  So far, however, it IS an interesting picture of
  Missing The Point Of The Spiritual Quest Entirely.
 
 
 Hmm, and you offer WHAT/WHO in comparison?

I offer nothing.  Nor do I attempt to sell it.
That's the business of those who have made offering
something into a business.

 You raise being clueless to an Art Form.

Cool.  My path involves turning *everything* into
an artform.  :-)

But if you're not clueless, perhaps you could explain
to me what you saw in that film that you felt conveyed
a spiritual lesson of value.  For me, it was sadly a
two-hour dissertation on sadism, and an attempt to 
make viewers feel something for Christ by portraying
in excruciating detail all the suffering that the
filmmaker -- not being enlightened -- could image an
enlightened being going through.

I *understand* that many people actually believe that
Christ's suffering somehow magically paid for *their*
sins.  But IMO this particular filmmaker must imagine
some pretty icky sins to feel that what he put onscreen
was what Christ had to go through to pay for his.

I am *not* averse to onscreen violence.  That's not
the issue.  The issue is that this film spent at least
120 of its 127 minutes dealing with Christ's supposed
suffering and only 7 minutes dealing with his teachings.
If that's not missing the point, what is?
   
   In the context of suffering, the film misses the point, which is
   that Jesus gave up *Godhood* to pay for our sins. The visible 
   suffering was allegorical, and nothing in comparison to the 
loss 
 of 
   deityhood.
   
   This is explicit in the Bible, and the movie apparently misses 
 that 
   literally all-important point (from a Christian Redemption 
   perspective).
  
  You'll get an argument on this from some orthodox
  Christians, i.e., he only *appeared* to give up his
  divinity.  On the other hand, he never lost his
  humanity, either--he was 100% God and 100% human at
  all times.
  
  At worst, he momentarily forgot his divinity on the
  Cross.
 
 
 Still, that was his Ultimate Suffering, according to the bible.

Cite, please...






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-09 Thread Peter


--- authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 snip
  That is one of the best ones. When I first watched
 it
  on TV many years ago I had a very powerful
 spiritual
  experience. I was watching the scene with Peter
  denying Christ and scurrying around trying to hide
  from people. I was thinking about this event in
  archetypal terms as people denying their own
 divinity
  when suddenly (it's always suddenly) I realized
 that I
  was the Christ. I just sat there stunned by this
  self-evident truth. I went into my room and looked
 at
  a picture of MMY and Guru Dev and clearly saw
 Christ
  shining through their eyes too. Then I realized
 that
  everybody is Christ. I also clearly realized that
 the 
  story of Christ, the typical passion play, is so
  powerful because it is occuring every moment for
  everyone. It's the very structure of consciousness
  itself.
 
 Interesting.  (As you know, I object to terms like
 deny in this context because they imply
 intentionality, but that's a quibble to your main
 point.)
 
 It would be neat if somebody would make a Jesus
 movie
 based on the we-are-all-Christ idea, or, even
 better,
 one that was designed to convey the experience.
 
 How would you go about it?
 
 I'd also love to see somebody do a film of Paul's
 life and work.  Maybe that would be an even better
 way to approach it, because he does give some hints
 in his letters--Not I, but Christ who lives in me,
 and so on.  Jesus doesn't seem to have taught this
 explicitly, at least from the Gospel record.  Wonder
 why not?
 
  Did you see the most recent TV passion play mini
  series several years ago? It had the woman who
 plays
  in Will and Grace in it as Mary Magdalene. It was
  quite good too (even with its dreadful parts).
 They
  emphasized the human, casual side of Jesus.  
 
 If I did, I've forgotten it, I'm afraid!  Who played
 Jesus, do you recall?

It was the guy who played the crazy brother on Six
Feet Under during the first season. Now that's clear!



 
 
 
 
 
 
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-08 Thread eptfnj
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 So far, however, it IS an interesting picture of
 Missing The Point Of The Spiritual Quest Entirely.


Hmm, and you offer WHAT/WHO in comparison?

You raise being clueless to an Art Form.
















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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-08 Thread eptfnj
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Some friends rented it a year ago when I was vacationing with them.  
 We ripped it apart.   You get the impression that the phrase Jesus 
 died for your sins was really aimed at the group that voted for his 
 death.  No there is nothing much spiritual about this film.

There is far less spirituality in boucing on your ass to raise
consciousness or thinking that the orientation of your house,
roof ornaments and other such stuff.

Plain  simple - Fuck You!








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-08 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, eptfnj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  So far, however, it IS an interesting picture of
  Missing The Point Of The Spiritual Quest Entirely.
 
 
 Hmm, and you offer WHAT/WHO in comparison?
 
 You raise being clueless to an Art Form.

He'll take that as a great compliment, I suspect.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-08 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, eptfnj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  So far, however, it IS an interesting picture of
  Missing The Point Of The Spiritual Quest Entirely.
 
 
 Hmm, and you offer WHAT/WHO in comparison?

I would think just about any other treatment of teh same subject could 
be used in the comparison.

 
 You raise being clueless to an Art Form.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-08 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, eptfnj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Some friends rented it a year ago when I was vacationing with 
them.  
  We ripped it apart.   You get the impression that the phrase Jesus 
  died for your sins was really aimed at the group that voted for 
his 
  death.  No there is nothing much spiritual about this film.
 
 There is far less spirituality in boucing on your ass to raise
 consciousness or thinking that the orientation of your house,
 roof ornaments and other such stuff.
 
 Plain  simple - Fuck You!


I think you missed the point: the treatment by the FILM misses the 
point of Jesus's suffering and death.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-08 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, eptfnj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Some friends rented it a year ago when I was vacationing with 
them.  
  We ripped it apart.   You get the impression that the phrase Jesus 
  died for your sins was really aimed at the group that voted for 
his 
  death.  No there is nothing much spiritual about this film.
 
 There is far less spirituality in boucing on your ass to raise
 consciousness or thinking that the orientation of your house,
 roof ornaments and other such stuff.
 
 Plain  simple - Fuck You!


I think you missed the point: the treatment by the FILM misses the 
point of Jesus's suffering and death.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ

2005-10-08 Thread Bhairitu
eptfnj wrote:

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  

Some friends rented it a year ago when I was vacationing with them.  
We ripped it apart.   You get the impression that the phrase Jesus 
died for your sins was really aimed at the group that voted for his 
death.  No there is nothing much spiritual about this film.



There is far less spirituality in boucing on your ass to raise
consciousness or thinking that the orientation of your house,
roof ornaments and other such stuff.

Plain  simple - Fuck You!

  

How Christian of you.



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