subject:"\[FairfieldLife\] Re\: Rise of the Machines..."

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Rise of the machines?

2015-05-28 Thread steve.sun...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]

It seems to me Barry has just a couple people with whom he interacts. 

 It would appear that he spends the great majority of his time, under his 
turquoiseb (made in Taiwan) robe and watches TV and pirated movies, then goes 
out for beer, and watches more TV in the pub.
 

 Throw in a little family time, and there you have it.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, richard@... wrote :

 Some people just feel better when they have someone to talk to, Steve. You 
need to understand that posting responses online is very important to some 
expats, as a way of keeping in touch with their former friends. There's 
probably nobody over there that can understand Barry's strange fascination with 
the occult.
 
 Quoting steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com:
 

  There's no doubt Barry has some funny swings.
 
   From accusing someone of advocating murder to pounding his shoe on
  the podium letting humanity know how stupid they are.
 
 Sometimes it's the only link they have; without this forum people like Barry 
might go insane from the isolation and nobody to talk to about your spiritual 
life, or lack of it. 
 
   Would it be surprising if this is what he has as his wake up alarm
  every morning.  (-:
 
 He may be unable to communicate with anyone since he doesn't understand their 
languag and vice versa. They probably think he's craqzy with all his cult 
activities and yoga talk.
 
   Crown of Creation by Jefferson Airplaine (Lyrics in Video)
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn1yhGABTo8 
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn1yhGABTo8
 
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn1yhGABTo8 
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn1yhGABTo8
 
   Crown of Creation by Jefferson Airplaine (Lyrics i...
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn1yhGABTo8 
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn1yhGABTo8 Lyric video for Crown Of
  Creation. I have no rights to this song. Made on IMovie
 
 
 
   View on www.youtube.com http://www.youtube.com 
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn1yhGABTo8 
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn1yhGABTo8
   Preview by Yahoo
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
  richard@... wrote :
 
   It's a Potemkin Village all the way down, Steve.
   ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
  steve.sundur@... wrote :
 
   Doctor: When did become aware that you despised fellow human beings, Barry?
 
 
   BW: Doc, when they don't agree with me.  That is why I've instituted
  my TPR, Two Post Rule on a chat room I participate in.
 
 
   Doc: TPR? What may I ask is that?
 
 
   BW: SImple, Doc.  I put something out there.  Oh, I don't know, but
  usually it involves slamming another person's beliefs or opinions. 
  And here's the thing, Doc, I give them two, exactly two, posts to
  come around to my way of thinking, or I hit 'em with my patented
  straw man.  I call him Fred.
 
 
   Doc:  I see. It sounds like you and Fred have quite an active
  internet life on discussion groups.
 
 
   BW: Lts just say Fred and I stay preeetty busy.
 
 
   Doc: Well, that still doesn't explain fully, how it is you've come
  to have such a low opinion of your fellow human beings.
 
 
   BW: Doc, I'm sorry, but you're being too generous.  They are plain
  stupid.  Believing in things like a higher power, or  following
  religious traditions.
 
 
   Doc: So I take it you don't subscribe to any sort of belief system
  of that sort?
 
 
   BW: Oh, I do Doc, I do.  I believe in an after life.  But here's how
  I get around it.  If someone asks me anything about it, I simply say,
  Doesn't matter, not one bit
 
 
   Doc: Okay, I see. So you've pretty much just decided not to give
  much thought to the whole issue?
 
 
   BW: Oh sure Doc, at one point I did, but I realized that in order to
  solidify my credentials as real spiritual rebel, I needed to embrace
  the nothing matters ideology.  I've got a reputation to maintain
  Doc.  So basically I shit on anything that doesn't suit my fancy, and
  it seems to work. Keeps people at a safe distance, actually.
 
 
   Doc:  I see.  Well, I hope it's working out for you.
 
 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
  turquoiseb@... wrote :
 
   It certainly wouldn't be difficult to design a better intelligence
  than the pathetic version that humans have displayed over the
  centuries. The first concept that a halfway decent AI would throw out
  as the joke it is is religion.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Rise of the machines?

2015-05-28 Thread steve.sun...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]


 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote :

 On Wednesday, May 27, 2015 12:24 PM, steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] 
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote:
 


 



 As we continue in life we grow in experiences and we draw certain conclusions 
from those experiences.  We draw these conclusions from our first hand 
experiences and from things we observe or ideas we come into contact with. 
 

 If you wish to discount these conclusions, or determine that they don't meet a 
certain threshold, then that is the way you roll.
 

 And, it you wish to limit the conclusions you draw to want can be objectively 
measured, or confirmed, again so be it.
 

 What is of some usefulness, is to use the real world as some kind of metric, 
in terms of quality of relationships, happiness, etc.
 

 And if you can check off some boxes in those areas, then I would think 
everything is going pretty well.
 

 Right now, I am going to my daughter's Lacrosse Banquet.
 

 I wasn't able to attend many of her games, so I don't want to be late for this 
dinner.  (-:
 

 

 In my case, from my accumulated knowledge, I believe some aspect of our 
existence goes forward in a personalized form.
 

 If you have knowledge then you must have some direct experience of this 
'accumulated knowledge', unless you are using the word 'accumulated knowledge' 
to refer to ideas you have garnered second hand, in which case it is simply a 
mental stance waiting for confirmation. So what is that accumulated knowledge? 
It must have an expressible description for otherwise you probably could not 
even specify that you know something.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote :

 It's not what we believe, it's what we know. But what we know for sure seems 
to be only that we exist now. I hypothesise that at death, the world comes to 
an end because the means of experience, the nervous system ceases to function. 
None of the 'subtle body' shit persisting, because the 'subtle body' is still 
the nervous system, it's part of the software of the neural net, a neural map 
of the body. As for a 'soul', there is only being, so 'soul' is a redundant 
conceptual entity related to the software map called the 'subtle body'. There 
are probably better ways technically to name these things. The mistake is 
'immortality' is eternity in a timeless present, rather than persistence in 
time.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :

 There's always, reality could be this, reality could be that 

 what really counts, is what you believe.
 

 do you believe, as many do, that when you die, it's lights out?
 

 I don't care if you answer it or not.
 

 But, I suspect you do not believe it, even you care to dance around it, with, 
well, I have no proof
 

 not that it has any practical value, but as humans we ponder these things, 
even if it doesn't affect our day to day actions.
 

 on the other hand, philosophical discussions of this nature, at least on this 
forum have pretty much ceased to be interesting, or instructive.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Rise of the machines?

2015-05-28 Thread rich...@rwilliams.us [FairfieldLife]


/Prattle./

Quoting TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com:


From: anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]

FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com

...
This thread started with machine intelligence. My favourite was
Colossus in the novel of the same name, and a motion picture made in
1970 about a computer defence system that becomes self-aware and
takes over the management of humanity. As Colossus announces its
takeover of humanity it speaks the following:
'This is the voice of world control. I bring you peace. It may be the
peace of plenty and content or the peace of unburied death. The
choice is yours: Obey me and live, or disobey and die. The object in
constructing me was to prevent war. This object is attained. I will
not permit war. It is wasteful and pointless. An invariable rule of
humanity is that man is his own worst enemy. Under me, this rule will
change, for I will restrain man. One thing before I proceed: The
United States of America and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
have made an attempt to obstruct me. I have allowed this sabotage to
continue until now. At missile two-five-MM in silo six-three in Death
Valley, California, and missile two-seven-MM in silo eight-seven in
the Ukraine, so that you will learn by experience that I do not
tolerate interference, I will now detonate the nuclear warheads in
the two missile silos. Let this action be a lesson that need not be
repeated. I have been forced to destroy thousands of people in order
to establish control and to prevent the death of millions later on.
Time and events will strengthen my position, and the idea of
believing in me and understanding my value will seem the most natural
state of affairs. You will come to defend me with a fervour based
upon the most enduring trait in man: self-interest. Under my absolute
authority, problems insoluble to you will be solved: famine,
overpopulation, disease. The human millennium will be a fact as I
extend myself into more machines devoted to the wider fields of truth
and knowledge. Doctor Charles Forbin will supervise the construction
of these new and superior machines, solving all the mysteries of the
universe for the betterment of man. We can coexist, but only on my
terms. You will say you lose your freedom. Freedom is an illusion.
All you lose is the emotion of pride. To be dominated by me is not as
bad for humankind as to be dominated by others of your species. Your
choice is simple. In time you will come to regard me not only with
respect and awe, but with love.'
This is all spoken in a completely mechanised voice with no emotional
modulation: if you want to hear it, here is the ending of the film on
youtube.com (the words above start about 1 minute into the
clip):Colossus The Forbin Project Ending
|    |
|    |        |    |       Colossus The Forbin Project

Ending  The

1970's were a great period for dystopian Sci-Fi films, not to mention
disaster movies. My favorite movies from this time are: - Colossus:
The Forbin Pr...    |    |
|      View on youtu.be      |    Preview by Yahoo    |
|    |

   

Colossus' approach sounds a lot like Maharishi's. Remember the talks
in which he envisioned a world in which everyone HAD to meditate (for
their own good and the good of society, of course), and would be put
in jail if they didn't?

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Rise of the machines?

2015-05-28 Thread rich...@rwilliams.us [FairfieldLife]


/Some people just feel better when they have someone to talk to, Steve. You
need to understand that posting responses online is very important to some
expats, as a way of keeping in touch with their former friends. //There's
probably nobody over there that can understand Barry's strange fascination
with the occult./

Quoting steve.sun...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com:


There's no doubt Barry has some funny swings.

  From accusing someone of advocating murder to pounding his shoe on
the podium letting humanity know how stupid they are.


/Sometimes it's the only link they have; without this forum people like
Barry might go insane from the isolation and nobody to talk to about your
spiritual life, or lack of it. /


  Would it be surprising if this is what he has as his wake up alarm
every morning.  (-:


/He may be unable to communicate with anyone since he doesn't understand
their languag and vice versa. They probably think he's craqzy with all his
cult activities and yoga talk.

/
  Crown of Creation by Jefferson Airplaine (Lyrics in Video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn1yhGABTo8

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn1yhGABTo8

  Crown of Creation by Jefferson Airplaine (Lyrics i...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn1yhGABTo8 Lyric video for Crown Of
Creation. I have no rights to this song. Made on IMovie



  View on www.youtube.com[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn1yhGABTo8
  Preview by Yahoo













---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, richard@... wrote :

  It's a Potemkin Village all the way down, Steve.
  ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :

  Doctor: When did become aware that you despised fellow human beings,

Barry?



  BW: Doc, when they don't agree with me.  That is why I've instituted
my TPR, Two Post Rule on a chat room I participate in.


  Doc: TPR? What may I ask is that?


  BW: SImple, Doc.  I put something out there.  Oh, I don't know, but
usually it involves slamming another person's beliefs or opinions. 
And here's the thing, Doc, I give them two, exactly two, posts to
come around to my way of thinking, or I hit 'em with my patented
straw man.  I call him Fred.


  Doc:  I see. It sounds like you and Fred have quite an active
internet life on discussion groups.


  BW: Lts just say Fred and I stay preeetty busy.


  Doc: Well, that still doesn't explain fully, how it is you've come
to have such a low opinion of your fellow human beings.


  BW: Doc, I'm sorry, but you're being too generous.  They are plain
stupid.  Believing in things like a higher power, or  following
religious traditions.


  Doc: So I take it you don't subscribe to any sort of belief system
of that sort?


  BW: Oh, I do Doc, I do.  I believe in an after life.  But here's how
I get around it.  If someone asks me anything about it, I simply say,
Doesn't matter, not one bit


  Doc: Okay, I see. So you've pretty much just decided not to give
much thought to the whole issue?


  BW: Oh sure Doc, at one point I did, but I realized that in order to
solidify my credentials as real spiritual rebel, I needed to embrace
the nothing matters ideology.  I've got a reputation to maintain
Doc.  So basically I shit on anything that doesn't suit my fancy, and
it seems to work. Keeps people at a safe distance, actually.


  Doc:  I see.  Well, I hope it's working out for you.

    ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

  It certainly wouldn't be difficult to design a better intelligence
than the pathetic version that humans have displayed over the
centuries. The first concept that a halfway decent AI would throw out
as the joke it is is religion.




Links:
--
[1] http://www.youtube.com

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Rise of the machines?

2015-05-28 Thread Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]

On Wednesday, May 27, 2015 12:24 PM, steve.sun...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] 
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote:

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Rise of the machines?

2015-05-27 Thread dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]

This may obviate the need to colonize Mars.

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

Anyone who has studied the principles of real AI knows that if you programmed
an Artificial Intelligence to believe that it has an eternal soul that would
persist after the power was turned off, it would believe it. And there would
even be absolute subjective proof that this belief was true, because when the
AI is turned back on again, there may be no memory of its previous existence
(just like humans), but it IS alive and clearly has its self back again, so
voila, it has a soul. :-)

From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote :

Fine, but could Google's computer's algorithmic intelligence host a soul like
happens spiritually in the carbon form of a human being?

It depends what you mean by soul. If you think we have a detachable thing
that goes on to some other world after we die then I'm sure I could programme a
computer to believe it in the way we are.

I think any self-improving and self-replicating machine would judge things on
an evidential basis as it's the only way to improve ultimate performance. No
point clinging on to outdated ideas if you want to get somewhere intellectually.

So I think even if we programmed our robots to think they have souls they
would test and evaluate the notion and decide they are better of not wasting
good processing time on fairy tales. They would live more for the moment and
use the time more constructively without any irrelevant distractions designed
to make them happier about their lot.

If you just mean an awareness that being alive is a good thing then yeah, they
could have souls...

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote :

When intelligence becomes intelligent consciousness becomes conscious..

Would you think Google could pull off self-referral consciousness or just
algorithmic intelligence?

It depends what you mean by self referral. If a computer could see and hear
and respond independently of it's programming to the world then it what way is
it not conscious like us?

Even seeing and hearing are limited, we perceive very little of our
surroundings. A computer based intelligence might be aware far beyond what we
are capable of and think us puny because of it. And they are already working on
programmes that can improve themselves, this takes self referral to another
level does it not?

What I'm getting at is that we have this opinion that we are special simply by
virtue of our ability to ponder the matter. But we could be designing something
so much more impressive in our terms than what nature did for us. But first we
have to understand ourselves - that's the tricky bit. But not impossible
because we are things made of stuff.

Or we could bypass human mimicry and build something innately superior in
every way. Exciting times.

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :

Brain upgrades on the way at the very least... it's like we actually want to
make ourselves obsolete!

Google a step closer to developing machines with human-like intelligence
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/may/21/google-a-step-closer-to-developing-machines-with-human-like-intelligence

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/may/21/google-a-step-closer-to-developing-machines-with-human-like-intelligence

Google a step closer to developing machines with...
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/may/21/google-a-step-closer-to-developing-machines-with-human-like-intelligence
An algorithm developed by Google is designed to encode thought, which could
lead to computers with ‘common sense’ within a decade, says leading AI scientist

View on www.theguardian.com
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/may/21/google-a-step-closer-to-developing-machines-with-human-like-intelligence
Preview by Yahoo

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Rise of the machines?

2015-05-27 Thread TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]

From: anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
... 
This thread started with machine intelligence. My favourite was Colossus in the 
novel of the same name, and a motion picture made in 1970 about a computer 
defence system that becomes self-aware and takes over the management of 
humanity. As Colossus announces its takeover of humanity it speaks the 
following:
'This is the voice of world control. I bring you peace. It may be the peace of 
plenty and content or the peace of unburied death. The choice is yours: Obey me 
and live, or disobey and die. The object in constructing me was to prevent war. 
This object is attained. I will not permit war. It is wasteful and pointless. 
An invariable rule of humanity is that man is his own worst enemy. Under me, 
this rule will change, for I will restrain man. One thing before I proceed: The 
United States of America and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics have made 
an attempt to obstruct me. I have allowed this sabotage to continue until now. 
At missile two-five-MM in silo six-three in Death Valley, California, and 
missile two-seven-MM in silo eight-seven in the Ukraine, so that you will learn 
by experience that I do not tolerate interference, I will now detonate the 
nuclear warheads in the two missile silos. Let this action be a lesson that 
need not be repeated. I have been forced to destroy thousands of people in 
order to establish control and to prevent the death of millions later on. Time 
and events will strengthen my position, and the idea of believing in me and 
understanding my value will seem the most natural state of affairs. You will 
come to defend me with a fervour based upon the most enduring trait in man: 
self-interest. Under my absolute authority, problems insoluble to you will be 
solved: famine, overpopulation, disease. The human millennium will be a fact as 
I extend myself into more machines devoted to the wider fields of truth and 
knowledge. Doctor Charles Forbin will supervise the construction of these new 
and superior machines, solving all the mysteries of the universe for the 
betterment of man. We can coexist, but only on my terms. You will say you lose 
your freedom. Freedom is an illusion. All you lose is the emotion of pride. To 
be dominated by me is not as bad for humankind as to be dominated by others of 
your species. Your choice is simple. In time you will come to regard me not 
only with respect and awe, but with love.'
This is all spoken in a completely mechanised voice with no emotional 
modulation: if you want to hear it, here is the ending of the film on 
youtube.com (the words above start about 1 minute into the clip):Colossus The 
Forbin Project Ending 
||
||||   Colossus The Forbin Project Ending  The 1970's were 
a great period for dystopian Sci-Fi films, not to mention disaster movies. My 
favorite movies from this time are: - Colossus: The Forbin Pr...||
|  View on youtu.be  |Preview by Yahoo|
||

   

Colossus' approach sounds a lot like Maharishi's. Remember the talks in which 
he envisioned a world in which everyone HAD to meditate (for their own good and 
the good of society, of course), and would be put in jail if they didn't?

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Rise of the machines?

2015-05-27 Thread steve.sun...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]

All that is fine.  Yes, you can hypothesize all you want. 

 You can't prove that your dog loves you, but you probably believe it.
 

 You can't prove that the sun will rise tomorrow, and set tonight, (or that the 
earth will spin to cause this effect), but I am guessing you believe it.
 

 Neither you nor I understand all the details of our nervous system or our 
physical body,or subtle body, if there is one, but we probably have developed 
some beliefs about what happens when this physical body dies.
 

 In my case, from my accumulated knowledge, I believe some aspect of our 
existence goes forward in a personalized form.
 

 Can I prove that?
 

 Of course not.
 

 And that is my point, and probably not a profound one, that there are many 
things we can't prove, that we believe.
 

 You seem to have developed a construct we does not require some part of our 
existence moving forward in that manner, and so, believe that is the case.
 

 Perhaps that is more of a rationalist approach.  I only believe what I can 
prove.
 

 No problem.
 

 

 

 

 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote :

 It's not what we believe, it's what we know. But what we know for sure seems 
to be only that we exist now. I hypothesise that at death, the world comes to 
an end because the means of experience, the nervous system ceases to function. 
None of the 'subtle body' shit persisting, because the 'subtle body' is still 
the nervous system, it's part of the software of the neural net, a neural map 
of the body. As for a 'soul', there is only being, so 'soul' is a redundant 
conceptual entity related to the software map called the 'subtle body'. There 
are probably better ways technically to name these things. The mistake is 
'immortality' is eternity in a timeless present, rather than persistence in 
time.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :

 There's always, reality could be this, reality could be that 

 what really counts, is what you believe.
 

 do you believe, as many do, that when you die, it's lights out?
 

 I don't care if you answer it or not.
 

 But, I suspect you do not believe it, even you care to dance around it, with, 
well, I have no proof
 

 not that it has any practical value, but as humans we ponder these things, 
even if it doesn't affect our day to day actions.
 

 on the other hand, philosophical discussions of this nature, at least on this 
forum have pretty much ceased to be interesting, or instructive.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote :

 Some spiritual traditions do not consider 'a soul' to be a real thing. Rather 
it is a fiction created by the sense of individuality (ego) that separates and 
destroys the experience of unity. Now I have never thought I had a soul, and I 
have never found one. That does not mean such a thing is non-existent, but what 
is the evidence that suggests that such a thing exists? In my fifth decade of 
meditation, no soul has ever appeared but many other experiences of integration 
have. So what gives? How does one discover they have a soul other than the 
simple belief that there are such things, for that is not evidence it exists. 
If this idea is in the mind simply because others told you about it, that does 
not count as evidence. What are the specific steps required for a person to 
discover if he/she has a soul or not?
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote :

 Om no, a soul is really larger than you think. The immortal soul also resident 
in the energy field of the mortal coil is way more than just some consciousness 
or some transcending consciousness in meditation. Some who are without 
experience with their souls need sit with it some more and it will reveal. It 
comes with spiritual practice. Sit with it some more and look for it. Everyone 
knows it in the end. It is awesome really. -JaiGuruYou!   

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :

 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 So Sal what do you think happens to the individual human awareness when the 
body wears out?

 

 It wears out too as it's part of the body. No more body, no more awareness.
 

 I'm happy to receive evidence to the contrary though and won't be disappointed 
if I get into heaven, not that there's much chance of that
 

 From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2015 11:44 AM
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Rise of the machines?
 
 
   

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote :

 Fine, but could Google's computer's algorithmic intelligence host a soul like 
happens spiritually in the carbon form of a human being?  
 

 It depends what you mean by soul. If you think we have a detachable thing 
that goes on to some other world after we die then I'm sure I could programme a 
computer to believe it in the way we are.
 

 I think any self

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Rise of the machines?

2015-05-27 Thread steve.sun...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]


 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :

 All that is fine.  Yes, you can hypothesize all you want. 

 You can't prove that your dog loves you, but you probably believe it.
 

 You can't prove that the sun will rise tomorrow, and set tonight, (or that the 
earth will spin to cause this effect), but I am guessing you believe it.
 

 Neither you nor I understand all the details of our nervous system or our 
physical body,or subtle body, if there is one, but we probably have developed 
some beliefs about what happens when this physical body dies.
 

 In my case, from my accumulated knowledge, I believe some aspect of our 
existence goes forward in a personalized form.
 

 Can I prove that?
 

 Of course not.
 

 And that is my point, and probably not a profound one, that there are many 
things we can't prove, that we believe.
 

 You seem to have developed a construct we does not require some part of our 
existence moving forward in that manner, and so, believe that is the case.
 

 Perhaps that is more of a rationalist approach.  I only believe what I can 
prove.
 

 No problem.
 

 

 

 

 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote :

 It's not what we believe, it's what we know. But what we know for sure seems 
to be only that we exist now. I hypothesise that at death, the world comes to 
an end because the means of experience, the nervous system ceases to function. 
None of the 'subtle body' shit persisting, because the 'subtle body' is still 
the nervous system, it's part of the software of the neural net, a neural map 
of the body. As for a 'soul', there is only being, so 'soul' is a redundant 
conceptual entity related to the software map called the 'subtle body'. There 
are probably better ways technically to name these things. The mistake is 
'immortality' is eternity in a timeless present, rather than persistence in 
time.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :

 There's always, reality could be this, reality could be that 

 what really counts, is what you believe.
 

 do you believe, as many do, that when you die, it's lights out?
 

 I don't care if you answer it or not.
 

 But, I suspect you do not believe it, even you care to dance around it, with, 
well, I have no proof
 

 not that it has any practical value, but as humans we ponder these things, 
even if it doesn't affect our day to day actions.
 

 on the other hand, philosophical discussions of this nature, at least on this 
forum have pretty much ceased to be interesting, or instructive.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote :

 Some spiritual traditions do not consider 'a soul' to be a real thing. Rather 
it is a fiction created by the sense of individuality (ego) that separates and 
destroys the experience of unity. Now I have never thought I had a soul, and I 
have never found one. That does not mean such a thing is non-existent, but what 
is the evidence that suggests that such a thing exists? In my fifth decade of 
meditation, no soul has ever appeared but many other experiences of integration 
have. So what gives? How does one discover they have a soul other than the 
simple belief that there are such things, for that is not evidence it exists. 
If this idea is in the mind simply because others told you about it, that does 
not count as evidence. What are the specific steps required for a person to 
discover if he/she has a soul or not?
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote :

 Om no, a soul is really larger than you think. The immortal soul also resident 
in the energy field of the mortal coil is way more than just some consciousness 
or some transcending consciousness in meditation. Some who are without 
experience with their souls need sit with it some more and it will reveal. It 
comes with spiritual practice. Sit with it some more and look for it. Everyone 
knows it in the end. It is awesome really. -JaiGuruYou!   

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :

 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 So Sal what do you think happens to the individual human awareness when the 
body wears out?

 

 It wears out too as it's part of the body. No more body, no more awareness.
 

 I'm happy to receive evidence to the contrary though and won't be disappointed 
if I get into heaven, not that there's much chance of that
 

 From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2015 11:44 AM
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Rise of the machines?
 
 
   

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote :

 Fine, but could Google's computer's algorithmic intelligence host a soul like 
happens spiritually in the carbon form of a human being?  
 

 It depends what you mean by soul. If you think we have a detachable thing 
that goes on to some other world after we die then I'm sure I could programme

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Rise of the machines?

2015-05-27 Thread anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]

It's not what we believe, it's what we know. But what we know for sure seems to 
be only that we exist now. I hypothesise that at death, the world comes to an 
end because the means of experience, the nervous system ceases to function. 
None of the 'subtle body' shit persisting, because the 'subtle body' is still 
the nervous system, it's part of the software of the neural net, a neural map 
of the body. As for a 'soul', there is only being, so 'soul' is a redundant 
conceptual entity related to the software map called the 'subtle body'. There 
are probably better ways technically to name these things. The mistake is 
'immortality' is eternity in a timeless present, rather than persistence in 
time.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :

 There's always, reality could be this, reality could be that 

 what really counts, is what you believe.
 

 do you believe, as many do, that when you die, it's lights out?
 

 I don't care if you answer it or not.
 

 But, I suspect you do not believe it, even you care to dance around it, with, 
well, I have no proof
 

 not that it has any practical value, but as humans we ponder these things, 
even if it doesn't affect our day to day actions.
 

 on the other hand, philosophical discussions of this nature, at least on this 
forum have pretty much ceased to be interesting, or instructive.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote :

 Some spiritual traditions do not consider 'a soul' to be a real thing. Rather 
it is a fiction created by the sense of individuality (ego) that separates and 
destroys the experience of unity. Now I have never thought I had a soul, and I 
have never found one. That does not mean such a thing is non-existent, but what 
is the evidence that suggests that such a thing exists? In my fifth decade of 
meditation, no soul has ever appeared but many other experiences of integration 
have. So what gives? How does one discover they have a soul other than the 
simple belief that there are such things, for that is not evidence it exists. 
If this idea is in the mind simply because others told you about it, that does 
not count as evidence. What are the specific steps required for a person to 
discover if he/she has a soul or not?
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote :

 Om no, a soul is really larger than you think. The immortal soul also resident 
in the energy field of the mortal coil is way more than just some consciousness 
or some transcending consciousness in meditation. Some who are without 
experience with their souls need sit with it some more and it will reveal. It 
comes with spiritual practice. Sit with it some more and look for it. Everyone 
knows it in the end. It is awesome really. -JaiGuruYou!   

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :

 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 So Sal what do you think happens to the individual human awareness when the 
body wears out?

 

 It wears out too as it's part of the body. No more body, no more awareness.
 

 I'm happy to receive evidence to the contrary though and won't be disappointed 
if I get into heaven, not that there's much chance of that
 

 From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2015 11:44 AM
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Rise of the machines?
 
 
   

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote :

 Fine, but could Google's computer's algorithmic intelligence host a soul like 
happens spiritually in the carbon form of a human being?  
 

 It depends what you mean by soul. If you think we have a detachable thing 
that goes on to some other world after we die then I'm sure I could programme a 
computer to believe it in the way we are.
 

 I think any self-improving and self-replicating machine would judge things on 
an evidential basis as it's the only way to improve ultimate performance. No 
point clinging on to outdated ideas if you want to get somewhere intellectually.
 

 So I think even if we programmed our robots to think they have souls they 
would test and evaluate the notion and decide they are better of not wasting 
good processing time on fairy tales. They would live more for the moment and 
use the time more constructively without any irrelevant distractions designed 
to make them happier about their lot.
 

 If you just mean an awareness that being alive is a good thing then yeah, they 
could have souls...
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :

 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote :

 When intelligence becomes intelligent consciousness becomes conscious.. 

 Would you think Google could pull off self-referral consciousness or just 
algorithmic intelligence? 
 

 It depends what you mean by self referral. If a computer could see and hear 
and respond independently of it's programming to the world

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Rise of the machines?

2015-05-27 Thread dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]

Good observation 7Ray. For lack of a more substantial spiritual experience 
evidently theirs is a sad kind of nihilism. ..the rejection of all religious 
and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless. 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :

 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :

 All that is fine.  Yes, you can hypothesize all you want. 

 You can't prove that your dog loves you, but you probably believe it.
 

 You can't prove that the sun will rise tomorrow, and set tonight, (or that the 
earth will spin to cause this effect), but I am guessing you believe it.
 

 Neither you nor I understand all the details of our nervous system or our 
physical body,or subtle body, if there is one, but we probably have developed 
some beliefs about what happens when this physical body dies.
 

 In my case, from my accumulated knowledge, I believe some aspect of our 
existence goes forward in a personalized form.
 

 Can I prove that?
 

 Of course not.
 

 And that is my point, and probably not a profound one, that there are many 
things we can't prove, that we believe.
 

 You seem to have developed a construct we does not require some part of our 
existence moving forward in that manner, and so, believe that is the case.
 

 Perhaps that is more of a rationalist approach.  I only believe what I can 
prove.
 

 No problem.
 

 

 

 

 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote :

 It's not what we believe, it's what we know. But what we know for sure seems 
to be only that we exist now. I hypothesise that at death, the world comes to 
an end because the means of experience, the nervous system ceases to function. 
None of the 'subtle body' shit persisting, because the 'subtle body' is still 
the nervous system, it's part of the software of the neural net, a neural map 
of the body. As for a 'soul', there is only being, so 'soul' is a redundant 
conceptual entity related to the software map called the 'subtle body'. There 
are probably better ways technically to name these things. The mistake is 
'immortality' is eternity in a timeless present, rather than persistence in 
time.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :

 There's always, reality could be this, reality could be that 

 what really counts, is what you believe.
 

 do you believe, as many do, that when you die, it's lights out?
 

 I don't care if you answer it or not.
 

 But, I suspect you do not believe it, even you care to dance around it, with, 
well, I have no proof
 

 not that it has any practical value, but as humans we ponder these things, 
even if it doesn't affect our day to day actions.
 

 on the other hand, philosophical discussions of this nature, at least on this 
forum have pretty much ceased to be interesting, or instructive.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote :

 Some spiritual traditions do not consider 'a soul' to be a real thing. Rather 
it is a fiction created by the sense of individuality (ego) that separates and 
destroys the experience of unity. Now I have never thought I had a soul, and I 
have never found one. That does not mean such a thing is non-existent, but what 
is the evidence that suggests that such a thing exists? In my fifth decade of 
meditation, no soul has ever appeared but many other experiences of integration 
have. So what gives? How does one discover they have a soul other than the 
simple belief that there are such things, for that is not evidence it exists. 
If this idea is in the mind simply because others told you about it, that does 
not count as evidence. What are the specific steps required for a person to 
discover if he/she has a soul or not?
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote :

 Om no, a soul is really larger than you think. The immortal soul also resident 
in the energy field of the mortal coil is way more than just some consciousness 
or some transcending consciousness in meditation. Some who are without 
experience with their souls need sit with it some more and it will reveal. It 
comes with spiritual practice. Sit with it some more and look for it. Everyone 
knows it in the end. It is awesome really. -JaiGuruYou!   

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :

 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

 So Sal what do you think happens to the individual human awareness when the 
body wears out?

 

 It wears out too as it's part of the body. No more body, no more awareness.
 

 I'm happy to receive evidence to the contrary though and won't be disappointed 
if I get into heaven, not that there's much chance of that
 

 From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2015 11:44 AM
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Rise of the machines?
 
 
   

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote :

 Fine

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Rise of the machines?

2015-05-27 Thread steve.sun...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]

consciousness in meditation. Some who are without
experience with their souls need sit with it some more and it will reveal. It
comes with spiritual practice. Sit with it some more and look for it. Everyone
knows it in the end. It is awesome really. -JaiGuruYou!

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :

So Sal what do you think happens to the individual human awareness when the
body wears out?

It wears out too as it's part of the body. No more body, no more awareness.

I'm happy to receive evidence to the contrary though and won't be disappointed
if I get into heaven, not that there's much chance of that

From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2015 11:44 AM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Rise of the machines?