[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: major snip Many decades of conditioning have to be overcome in order to see this. It is a painful process. Not everyone wants to do it. No problem. Life is short, but time will sort this question out for future historians. L B S We'll just have to agree to disagree then. The agument that you put forward sounds like a variation of the It's too subtle for you to see argument that the TMO uses all the time. I have a hard time digesting that one anymore. Each polarity inspires and invigorates it's opposite and can't survive with out it. A new balance will come out of the extremes of left and right, or maybe we'll transcend. ;) The blogosphere and talk radio are now readjusting the mainstream media and the public will be better informed because of it. JohnY I don't mind disagreeing on this issue, nor do I assume I have the Ultimate Truth about it. However, I don't think the argument I am advancing is the too subtle for you to see argument. First of all, I know from your posts that that you are intelligent, thoughtful, and well-educated. You are not lacking for subtlety. The real issue is not the subtlety of the conditioning but its pervasiveness. Although subtle forms of social conditioning are found in this society, most forms are actually rather crude and heavy-handed. It's just that we have become used to them. Seeing this does require insight, however, it's the insight that comes from sustained study and research, in my opinion. I have studied the media for more than 40 years, during which time I have also been an observer-participant and seen first-hand some of the discrepencies between what happens and what gets reported. Furthermore, I have conducted due diligence regarding the rebuttals to the radical framework I have been exploring, and I have generally found them to be reflexive and superficial in the general public and zealous partisanry in the power structure. Nevertheless, it took a LONG TIME for me to accept the conclusions which suggested themselves. I still debate within myself on an almost daily basis as to where the boundary lies between the reality I was socialized into and the reality I discovered later. That someone could conscientiously disagree with me does not surprise or upset. What I am expressing is, after all, a point of view; I express mine, you express yours. It is the nature of my point of view, however, to feel at this time that it is more in the nature of a responsibility to speak up than an option. Ciao, L B S Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ultrarishi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [...] Now it is difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the world is being saved. So the Dream is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO to be a wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it than for the TMO of the Merv days. I don't know. I pretty much prefer the Merv days. Today, MMY and the TMO seem more like Jimmy Swaggart and Pat Robertson and Bechtel and FoxNews. I was following LB until he equated disillusionment with the TMO with disillusionment with 'evil' USA. I think 'evil' USA is actually another media myth. JohnY Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: huge snip So, on the one hand, in answer to our deepest collective desire, we have created a regional, national and global reality that changes nearly instantly, reflecting our momentary fulfillments. On the other hand, there is an escalating need for us to not get caught in the vortex. We were given mantras years ago in order to clarify and realize our desires. We were given sutras to stir up and dissolve the mud. Now the challenge is, given our mantras and sutras, how can we build a perfectly unshakeable edifice for ourselves? Nice summary and conclusions. L B S Thanks- The really interesting thing I see too are the kids I know these days. Very grounded and centered for the most part, as if someone saw this coming and prepared for it... I don't get around much these days, but there are a lot like that in Fairfield. L B S Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/AQDrNC/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
On Dec 20, 2005, at 1:12 PM, L B Shriver wrote:More blatant recent developments regarding fraudulent elections and the subversions of our civil liberties are merely the more recent and obvious indicators of corporate fascism. Even that idea's been around a long time:"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it comes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or any controlling private power. "Franklin D. Roosevelt To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Valid observations, but there are a number of emerging factors that provide a counter force, or a new direction. With respect to the media myth, I think you have it exactly backwards. USA as the bastion of freedom and democracy is the media myth. One has only to see who owns the media to understand how this could be the case. Blogs. Podcasting and Internet radio -- huge diversity of independent news sources -- and cheap production giving the pen to the masses. Diversity of cable news and print media sources, including from overseaas. Indie films. Garage recording studios with internet distribution. Affordable Hi-Def video-cams allowing professional video, along with internet distribution. WiFi everywhere. Outside the USA, the Evil Empire view is currently almost universal. It has particularly floated to the surface with the current administration, coincidentally. And in 2008 Biden, Clinton, McCain or Guillardi copuld be president which will at least modify those views. The history of military adventurism and economic exploitation, the subvesion of foreign governments, etc, is well established, but it NOT generally explored in the mainstream media. See above media comments. I am learning much more of the above from the above above. More blatant recent developments regarding fraudulent elections ultimately, technology will get it right, virtualy elimintng he crap of the past two elections. and the subversions of our civil liberties Seantors just stood down the Patriot Act extension. are merely the more recent and obvious indicators of corporate fascism. Read Tom Friedman's The World is Fat. I mean Flat. Corporate power is becoming increadibly diffused, distributed around the globe. Europeans, having had more experience with these things, tend to see us as naive barbarians. And South Africans hate the Dutch Most Americans, on the other hand, tend to be in denial about it. See above media comments. It is a powerful force to change awareness. Those in the early stages of owning it tend to be angry and/or frightened. And yet all of the above developments are reason for optimism and joy. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
Response below. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, braaahmaan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Valid observations, but there are a number of emerging factors that provide a counter force, or a new direction. With respect to the media myth, I think you have it exactly backwards. USA as the bastion of freedom and democracy is the media myth. One has only to see who owns the media to understand how this could be the case. Blogs. Podcasting and Internet radio -- huge diversity of independent news sources -- and cheap production giving the pen to the masses. Diversity of cable news and print media sources, including from overseaas. Indie films. Garage recording studios with internet distribution. Affordable Hi-Def video-cams allowing professional video, along with internet distribution. WiFi everywhere. Outside the USA, the Evil Empire view is currently almost universal. It has particularly floated to the surface with the current administration, coincidentally. And in 2008 Biden, Clinton, McCain or Guillardi copuld be president which will at least modify those views. The history of military adventurism and economic exploitation, the subvesion of foreign governments, etc, is well established, but it NOT generally explored in the mainstream media. See above media comments. I am learning much more of the above from the above above. More blatant recent developments regarding fraudulent elections ultimately, technology will get it right, virtualy elimintng he crap of the past two elections. and the subversions of our civil liberties Seantors just stood down the Patriot Act extension. are merely the more recent and obvious indicators of corporate fascism. Read Tom Friedman's The World is Fat. I mean Flat. Corporate power is becoming increadibly diffused, distributed around the globe. Europeans, having had more experience with these things, tend to see us as naive barbarians. And South Africans hate the Dutch Most Americans, on the other hand, tend to be in denial about it. See above media comments. It is a powerful force to change awareness. Those in the early stages of owning it tend to be angry and/or frightened. And yet all of the above developments are reason for optimism and joy. As usual, you have raised many excellent points, particularly about the web, blogs, etc. Pressing responsibilities require brevity in reply, but: Despite information alternatives to the Mainstream Media, it's good to remember that as many as 2/3 of Americans may still believe, as they did when the war began, that Saddam was involved in the 9/11 event. I'm sure you have examples of your own. Public perception, moreover, is still dominated by the MM, not the alternatives. Recent victories for the Good Guys have been in the skirmish category. It's too early to say the tide has turned, and we don't know what the future will bring. Like any good Taoist, I know that history is cyclic, etc, and the darkest hour is just before the dawn. Like any realistic observe of current events, however, I don't really know if this is the darkest hour. Maybe it's only midnight. Thanks again for your points. L B S Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [...] Now it is difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the world is being saved. So the Dream is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO to be a wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it than for the TMO of the Merv days. I would be interested to know your criteria for evaluating your position. Specifically: How will you know if you are correct in your belief in the Movement's immanent success? How will you know if you are mistaken? Do you have a time line in mind by which a judgement could be made? L B S ** The movement (towards expansion of happiness, the purpose of creation) is always successful, even if, as MMY said earler year, it may take hundreds of centuries -- we're 51 centuries into the Kaliyuga, the dismal 10% of the eternal Yuga cycle, so at most it will be another 4269 centuries until life on earth is not characterized by chaos, a mere drop in the bucket of cosmic (or even geologic) time: At one hour and 30 minutes into the 23Mar2005 press conference at mou.org, Maharishi says that it may take centuries for the pundits to restore Vedic civilization in India: http://streaming.mou.org/MOU/Mar/wnews_23mar2005prt1_128 (the following week MMY said it may be hundreds of centuries. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
Thanks for the input, Bobananda. Although I don't agree with the specifics of yugas, etc, I accept the principle that these are dark times. However, I don't have a clue what can be expectedor not. L B S --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bbrigante [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [...] Now it is difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the world is being saved. So the Dream is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO to be a wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it than for the TMO of the Merv days. I would be interested to know your criteria for evaluating your position. Specifically: How will you know if you are correct in your belief in the Movement's immanent success? How will you know if you are mistaken? Do you have a time line in mind by which a judgement could be made? L B S ** The movement (towards expansion of happiness, the purpose of creation) is always successful, even if, as MMY said earler year, it may take hundreds of centuries -- we're 51 centuries into the Kaliyuga, the dismal 10% of the eternal Yuga cycle, so at most it will be another 4269 centuries until life on earth is not characterized by chaos, a mere drop in the bucket of cosmic (or even geologic) time: At one hour and 30 minutes into the 23Mar2005 press conference at mou.org, Maharishi says that it may take centuries for the pundits to restore Vedic civilization in India: http://streaming.mou.org/MOU/Mar/wnews_23mar2005prt1_128 (the following week MMY said it may be hundreds of centuries. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ultrarishi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [...] Now it is difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the world is being saved. So the Dream is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO to be a wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it than for the TMO of the Merv days. I don't know. I pretty much prefer the Merv days. Today, MMY and the TMO seem more like Jimmy Swaggart and Pat Robertson and Bechtel and FoxNews. I was following LB until he equated disillusionment with the TMO with disillusionment with 'evil' USA. I think 'evil' USA is actually another media myth. JohnY The government is the innocent reflection of the consciousness of the people... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 20, 2005, at 11:20 AM, sparaig wrote: Immanent? Please clarify what you mean by calling it immanent. Try imminent. As in about to happen. ? OK, that's easy. There's cash handy, and they are spending it on new centers, or so it seems. There's true believers with enough money to become recerted and some with enough money to become rajahs. There's funding available in the form of low-cost loans (a REALLY nice feather, IMHO, in the TMO's cap), and highest-level government funding for long- term research on TM's effects on kids and adults. These aren't the signs of a fad, as were the massive initiations during the Merv days, but of a mature, socially acceptable practice. And people get upset about silly hats. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the input, Bobananda. Although I don't agree with the specifics of yugas, etc, I accept the principle that these are dark times. However, I don't have a clue what can be expectedor not. L B S ** And neither does MMY (as he admits when he says it could be hundreds of centuries before Vedic civilization is restored to India), not because he is incompetent, but because beings, human and higher, have complete freedom of action, so anything can always happen. God/Nature can always only discourage people from bad behavior and lowlife with punitive reactions to such behavior, but people can always choose to live worse rather than better (and it is only from the platform of expanded awareness that it is possible to live better). --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bbrigante [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [...] Now it is difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the world is being saved. So the Dream is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO to be a wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it than for the TMO of the Merv days. I would be interested to know your criteria for evaluating your position. Specifically: How will you know if you are correct in your belief in the Movement's immanent success? How will you know if you are mistaken? Do you have a time line in mind by which a judgement could be made? L B S ** The movement (towards expansion of happiness, the purpose of creation) is always successful, even if, as MMY said earler year, it may take hundreds of centuries -- we're 51 centuries into the Kaliyuga, the dismal 10% of the eternal Yuga cycle, so at most it will be another 4269 centuries until life on earth is not characterized by chaos, a mere drop in the bucket of cosmic (or even geologic) time: At one hour and 30 minutes into the 23Mar2005 press conference at mou.org, Maharishi says that it may take centuries for the pundits to restore Vedic civilization in India: http://streaming.mou.org/MOU/Mar/wnews_23mar2005prt1_128 (the following week MMY said it may be hundreds of centuries. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/YbEMxA/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ultrarishi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [...] Now it is difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the world is being saved. So the Dream is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO to be a wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it than for the TMO of the Merv days. I don't know. I pretty much prefer the Merv days. Today, MMY and the TMO seem more like Jimmy Swaggart and Pat Robertson and Bechtel and FoxNews. I was following LB until he equated disillusionment with the TMO with disillusionment with 'evil' USA. I think 'evil' USA is actually another media myth. JohnY Needless to say, I do not expect or require people to agree with everything I post. With respect to the media myth, I think you have it exactly backwards. USA as the bastion of freedom and democracy is the media myth. One has only to see who owns the media to understand how this could be the case. Outside the USA, the Evil Empire view is currently almost universal. It has particularly floated to the surface with the current administration, coincidentally. The history of military adventurism and economic exploitation, the subvesion of foreign governments, etc, is well established, but it NOT generally explored in the mainstream media. More blatant recent developments regarding fraudulent elections and the subversions of our civil liberties are merely the more recent and obvious indicators of corporate fascism. Europeans, having had more experience with these things, tend to see us as naive barbarians. Most Americans, on the other hand, tend to be in denial about it. Those in the early stages of owning it tend to be angry and/or frightened. L B S Nothing complicated, I just think that on the whole the US has been more a positive than a negative force in world affairs and the 'evil' America thing is perpetuated by a press with an agenda of it's own. Those 'experienced' Europeans have had their collective bacon pulled from the fire by US barbarians quite a few times. And like Maharishi are rather ungrateful about it too, when it suits their purposes. As far as the TMO is concerned we're only a little evil but our cash is quite good. JohnY Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ultrarishi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [...] Now it is difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the world is being saved. So the Dream is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO to be a wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it than for the TMO of the Merv days. I don't know. I pretty much prefer the Merv days. Today, MMY and the TMO seem more like Jimmy Swaggart and Pat Robertson and Bechtel and FoxNews. I was following LB until he equated disillusionment with the TMO with disillusionment with 'evil' USA. I think 'evil' USA is actually another media myth. JohnY Needless to say, I do not expect or require people to agree with everything I post. With respect to the media myth, I think you have it exactly backwards. USA as the bastion of freedom and democracy is the media myth. One has only to see who owns the media to understand how this could be the case. Outside the USA, the Evil Empire view is currently almost universal. It has particularly floated to the surface with the current administration, coincidentally. The history of military adventurism and economic exploitation, the subvesion of foreign governments, etc, is well established, but it NOT generally explored in the mainstream media. More blatant recent developments regarding fraudulent elections and the subversions of our civil liberties are merely the more recent and obvious indicators of corporate fascism. Europeans, having had more experience with these things, tend to see us as naive barbarians. Most Americans, on the other hand, tend to be in denial about it. Those in the early stages of owning it tend to be angry and/or frightened. L B S Nothing complicated, I just think that on the whole the US has been more a positive than a negative force in world affairs and the 'evil' America thing is perpetuated by a press with an agenda of it's own. Those 'experienced' Europeans have had their collective bacon pulled from the fire by US barbarians quite a few times. And like Maharishi are rather ungrateful about it too, when it suits their purposes. As far as the TMO is concerned we're only a little evil but our cash is quite good. JohnY Again, I must politely disagree. The press rarely touches upon the inner dynamics of history or current events, and has in fact been skillfully manipulated to preserve the myth of Noble America. It takes time to put together a more accurate history and reading of current events, and one must draw on many sources that mainstream Americans almost never consult. What has happened within the past few years is just that the current administration has exacerbated the deeply-rooted fascist trends within this country and made it harder to deny them. Many decades of conditioning have to be overcome in order to see this. It is a painful process. Not everyone wants to do it. No problem. Life is short, but time will sort this question out for future historians. L B S Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Again, I must politely disagree. The press rarely touches upon the inner dynamics of history or current events, and has in fact been skillfully manipulated to preserve the myth of Noble America. It takes time to put together a more accurate history and reading of current events, and one must draw on many sources that mainstream Americans almost never consult. Someone posted the Nobel Prize for Literature Speech by the current or recent winner. A lot of it focussed on the Reagan supported Qantra war against the democratically elected Sandanistas in Nicuragua. It prompted me to do some additioanl reading. Though this period occurred during my adulthood, I was busy with career at the time and only had a bit of a summary view of it all. When you dig into it, its pretty repulsive. What has happened within the past few years is just that the current administration has exacerbated the deeply-rooted fascist trends within this country and made it harder to deny them. While I have perhaps a stricter def of fascism than you, and may quibble on the use of that word as the best word, I agree that the manipulation, spin, control of news in this adminsitration has sunk t new lows. But a big part of the problem is not the white house, not corporate concentaration of media, but the press it self. Its astounding and scary how Judy Miller almost single handly, blindly, dupely, took us to war in Iraq. (yes thats an exageration, but a case could be made that absent judy miller, the us may not have had the support to invade iraq.) Where the F was management at the NYTs? And your point of 50% americans thinking that Saddam blew up the towers is shocking. And to think that after the debacle of Iraq, the clear lies or incompetance that lead us their (WMD), the inept post invasion managment, the illiterate and barely verbal nature of the president -- that the american public could re-elect him is mind-blowing. But then again, in just a year, the public has caught on and his popularity is in the 30's. Many decades of conditioning have to be overcome in order to see this. Its true, I beleive, that the American myth is taught and indoctrinated in k1-12 texts and classes. At least it was when i grew up, was when my niece was in school, and I suspect it still is - but perhaps some progress has been made. Though Intellignet Design makes you wonder. KH posted some articles by a great realist historian (Howard Zinn)-- with popular books suitable for HS. But lamented its hard to teach real stuff, because so much of the myth is part of the indoctrinated and dogmatic ciriculum. http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html And one of the oddest and IMO funny, tho scary things is that media in the us is generally a US news org. By definition its an oxymoron. Its not reporting the real news, it reporting how OUR troops are doing, etc. How can you objectively report a conflict if you take sides from the outset. It is a painful process. Not everyone wants to do it. No problem. Life is short, but time will sort this question out for future historians. I think things could tip either way -- at least for a while. But per prior post, I am cautiously optimistic. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ultrarishi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [...] Now it is difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the world is being saved. So the Dream is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO to be a wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it than for the TMO of the Merv days. I don't know. I pretty much prefer the Merv days. Today, MMY and the TMO seem more like Jimmy Swaggart and Pat Robertson and Bechtel and FoxNews. I was following LB until he equated disillusionment with the TMO with disillusionment with 'evil' USA. I think 'evil' USA is actually another media myth. JohnY Needless to say, I do not expect or require people to agree with everything I post. With respect to the media myth, I think you have it exactly backwards. USA as the bastion of freedom and democracy is the media myth. One has only to see who owns the media to understand how this could be the case. Outside the USA, the Evil Empire view is currently almost universal. It has particularly floated to the surface with the current administration, coincidentally. The history of military adventurism and economic exploitation, the subvesion of foreign governments, etc, is well established, but it NOT generally explored in the mainstream media. More blatant recent developments regarding fraudulent elections and the subversions of our civil liberties are merely the more recent and obvious indicators of corporate fascism. Europeans, having had more experience with these things, tend to see us as naive barbarians. Most Americans, on the other hand, tend to be in denial about it. Those in the early stages of owning it tend to be angry and/or frightened. L B S Nothing complicated, I just think that on the whole the US has been more a positive than a negative force in world affairs and the 'evil' America thing is perpetuated by a press with an agenda of it's own. Those 'experienced' Europeans have had their collective bacon pulled from the fire by US barbarians quite a few times. And like Maharishi are rather ungrateful about it too, when it suits their purposes. As far as the TMO is concerned we're only a little evil but our cash is quite good. JohnY Again, I must politely disagree. The press rarely touches upon the inner dynamics of history or current events, and has in fact been skillfully manipulated to preserve the myth of Noble America. It takes time to put together a more accurate history and reading of current events, and one must draw on many sources that mainstream Americans almost never consult. What has happened within the past few years is just that the current administration has exacerbated the deeply-rooted fascist trends within this country and made it harder to deny them. Many decades of conditioning have to be overcome in order to see this. It is a painful process. Not everyone wants to do it. No problem. Life is short, but time will sort this question out for future historians. L B S We'll just have to agree to disagree then. The agument that you put forward sounds like a variation of the It's too subtle for you to see argument that the TMO uses all the time. I have a hard time digesting that one anymore. Each polarity inspires and invigorates it's opposite and can't survive with out it. A new balance will come out of the extremes of left and right, or maybe we'll transcend. ;) The blogosphere and talk radio are now readjusting the mainstream media and the public will be better informed because of it. JohnY Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- L B Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A few weeks ago, Tom Pall genuinely apologized for one of his posts to Dr Pete, spontaneously and almost immediately after sending it. You know, I didn't catch that post and I'm sorry I didn't see it. I also should apologize for Tom for making a wise-ass crack at his expense. It was funny, but at his expense. So, perhaps time to forgive all around. But you didn't and you haven't and you have no intention to. Perhaps you can apogize in Rick's next weekly FFL group incarnation. Time to have FFL deleted and every attempt Rick makes of reviving look like the Myth of Sysiphys. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/CQDrNC/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
On Dec 20, 2005, at 12:46 AM, braaahmaan wrote:Those proclaiming great advaida-speak in one post, then totally contradicting it in the next post, is questionable. Yes, but Brahman is inclusive of opposite doncha know! :-/ To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- Tom Pall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- L B Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A few weeks ago, Tom Pall genuinely apologized for one of his posts to Dr Pete, spontaneously and almost immediately after sending it. You know, I didn't catch that post and I'm sorry I didn't see it. I also should apologize for Tom for making a wise-ass crack at his expense. It was funny, but at his expense. So, perhaps time to forgive all around. But you didn't and you haven't and you have no intention to. Perhaps you can apogize in Rick's next weekly FFL group incarnation. Time to have FFL deleted and every attempt Rick makes of reviving look like the Myth of Sysiphys. Tom, I apologize to you for the emotional pain my was ass quip created in you. If I had known it was going to bother you so much, I never would have said it. You keep on dragging this thing out. Akasha and I go at it for a while and then we both just give up. We don't try to detroy everything around us. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/CQDrNC/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/CQDrNC/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [...] Now it is difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the world is being saved. So the Dream is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO to be a wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it than for the TMO of the Merv days. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/YbEMxA/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [...] Now it is difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the world is being saved. So the Dream is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO to be a wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it than for the TMO of the Merv days. I don't know. I pretty much prefer the Merv days. Today, MMY and the TMO seem more like Jimmy Swaggart and Pat Robertson and Bechtel and FoxNews. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ultrarishi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [...] Now it is difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the world is being saved. So the Dream is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO to be a wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it than for the TMO of the Merv days. I don't know. I pretty much prefer the Merv days. Today, MMY and the TMO seem more like Jimmy Swaggart and Pat Robertson and Bechtel and FoxNews. If only. I mean, Fox SELLS man... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [...] Now it is difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the world is being saved. So the Dream is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO to be a wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it than for the TMO of the Merv days. I would be interested to know your criteria for evaluating your position. Specifically: How will you know if you are correct in your belief in the Movement's immanent success? How will you know if you are mistaken? Do you have a time line in mind by which a judgement could be made? L B S Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [...] Now it is difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the world is being saved. So the Dream is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO to be a wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it than for the TMO of the Merv days. I would be interested to know your criteria for evaluating your position. Specifically: How will you know if you are correct in your belief in the Movement's immanent success? Immanent? Please clarify what you mean by calling it immanent. How will you know if you are mistaken? About what? Having more expectations? Finding wonder in it? Do you have a time line in mind by which a judgement could be made? Ah, you want me to define what success will be like. How about: not only making TM available, but making it mainstream enough that people might actually want to try it, even if (or perhaps, especially because) it costs a lot? How about actually building buildings for a permanent organization, and filling them with reasonably competent people? And let us not forget the funny hats. Can't have a viable organization without funny hats. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [...] Now it is difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the world is being saved. So the Dream is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO to be a wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it than for the TMO of the Merv days. You have to read what Barry is really trying to say: Barry finds it difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that his life hs any meaning or that he has made any authentic spiritual progress. So the Dream is Over, and the disappointment for Barry is huge and painful. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
On Dec 20, 2005, at 11:20 AM, sparaig wrote:"Immanent?" Please clarify what you mean by calling it "immanent." Try "imminent". As in "about to happen."? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: huge snip So, on the one hand, in answer to our deepest collective desire, we have created a regional, national and global reality that changes nearly instantly, reflecting our momentary fulfillments. On the other hand, there is an escalating need for us to not get caught in the vortex. We were given mantras years ago in order to clarify and realize our desires. We were given sutras to stir up and dissolve the mud. Now the challenge is, given our mantras and sutras, how can we build a perfectly unshakeable edifice for ourselves? Nice summary and conclusions. L B S Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/CQDrNC/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: huge snip So, on the one hand, in answer to our deepest collective desire, we have created a regional, national and global reality that changes nearly instantly, reflecting our momentary fulfillments. On the other hand, there is an escalating need for us to not get caught in the vortex. We were given mantras years ago in order to clarify and realize our desires. We were given sutras to stir up and dissolve the mud. Now the challenge is, given our mantras and sutras, how can we build a perfectly unshakeable edifice for ourselves? Nice summary and conclusions. L B S Thanks- The really interesting thing I see too are the kids I know these days. Very grounded and centered for the most part, as if someone saw this coming and prepared for it... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/AQDrNC/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This issue of one or more persons (sometimes the majority of active posters) perceiving one partic- ular poster as consistently angry, and abusive because of that anger, suddenly clicked for me this afternoon. I had known that it reminded me of something, but I had not been able to figure out *what* it reminded me of. Bingo! Got it. It reminded me of visiting America recently, my first trip back in over two and a half years. Unless you've lived *outside* the country for a while, and are just re-entering it, you really aren't going to get (or believe) what I'm saying, and in fact you'll get angry about it, and say to yourself, He's full of shit. I know this going in, because that's the very phenomenon I'm talking about. I would say that MOST (and by MOST I mean 80-90% of the people I interacted with during my week in America were ANGRY. The *first* thing that hits you, if you've been away for a while is the level of F E A R in the air. Almost everyone is afraid, all the time. And if you mention this perception to them, they'll tell you they're not. And THEN they'll get angry at you for having noticed that they're afraid. And THEN they'll deny that they're angry. It's just the weirdest thing. Why I think it relates to issues here on FFL is that a number of the posters whom a lot of people agree are out-of-control angry DENY that they're angry. Well, I don't think that they KNOW consciously that they're angry. Anger is their *baseline* state, the thing they settle back *down* to and relax into when their out-of-control moments settle down. Anger is so much a part of their lives, so much the background soundtrack of those lives, that they think it's normal. So they get even angrier when some- one points out that they're angry, because they don't want to admit that they're angry all the time. Sadly, this is my (and a lot of Europeans') view of America and Americans at this time. They're so afraid all the time that it makes them angry almost all the time. But they cannot admit either the anger or the fear to themselves because that would be...uh...like Un-American or something. :-) And even more sadly, that is the scenario in and around a lot of spiritual traditions in which people have been pursuing enlightenment for 20-30 years with no real sign of progress. They can't really *admit* the lack of progress, because that would be off the program and would make it sound like they were doubting the all-holy teacher and tradition, but they're very *aware* of their own lack of progress. ESPECIALLY if someone comes around and talks about a basically normal, everyday experience of enlightenment, something that really *should* be normal and everyday in a real happening tradition. The people hearing this often get really, really, really, really PISSED OFF. And in my opinion that's what you're feeling around FFL right now. This is just my opinion, and I'm just throwing it out there for other people to bounce off of. I'm not going to get involved in defending these ideas or arguing them with some self-styled spiritual drama queen, just because they're in need of an argument today to make them feel alive . They're just ideas. Do with 'em what you want... Can't say I've noticed the anger thing directly in the general population, though it has been mentioned before that fear is a great way to keep the populace in check politically, and I do see a LOT of indirect evidence for that... However I do notice the other part of what you said. Especially the part about treating enlightenment as just another experience. On the one hand, sure it is special- divesting oneself of lifetimes of suffering is pretty darned neat. Ongoing freedom is also something incaluably special. On the other hand, the process of gaining enlightenment is not mumbo jumbo, and particularly the majority of the members here, who have been meditating in this life for decades, the physiology is conditioned to accept enlightenment already, so what is stopping us, from this really very normal experience? Through seeking enlightenment so long, many of us think that seeking is a normal state; some progress, a setback, a flashy experience, and then more of the same. However, it is just as easy to 'break on through to the other side...'. And the reward is well worth it! Say a prayer, go for it! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
Barry provides some thoughtful and thought provoking observations and hypotheses. While I open to the validity of such, it makes me wonder if other dynamics and explanations may also be possible. Ochams Razor would dictate looking for the simplest explanation. If 90% of people polled, or observed on-line, are told you are angry and they nearly universally say, Well, actually not. And given that the poller in most cases has virtually no knowledge of the persons in questions other than a quick observation, a simpler explanation would be: the observation of anger is incorrect, and the self-reporting by people who know their own lives quite well, may actualy be more valid than the poller who has observed them for a few minutes, or read a few posts of theirs. But it certainly is fair and good to consider both explanations, as well as others. Barry's model suggests a generalized dynamic -- a framework from which other content might be hung. A current observation of mine comes to mind. As I have posted, I have found several recent posts quite funny.(1) I have asked in this forum, Doesn't anyone else see the humor here?. Not much of a response -- though to be honest, not many people respond to such broad quesions. So one or two, of many possible explantions, are that: 1) people on this list don't have much of a sense of humor. Since there is a lot of joking around, that doesn't seem to fit. A second explanation could be 2) My sense of humor is different from others. Or 3) The observations are not funny. While open to number 3, humor is reflexive. When one laughs at something, by definition it is funny to them. Thus, if at least one person is laughing, its hard to tie a solid objective collar on any laughed at observation and say, in absolute terms that it is devoid of humor. In other words, popular humor may be democratic. Sometimes to the lowerst common denominator. More people think Jay Leno is funny than say Stephen Wright or Jeneanne Goroffallo. But it does not follow that Jay Leno is funnier in an absolute sense. Indeed if there is a critical theory for humor, I would speculate that popular humor may usually be observed as lower humor than humor that is more complex, nuanced and mult-layerd. Just a a list of blockbuster films is often quite different from a list of critically acclaimed films. Thus humor itself is not really democratic. If one person is laughing, by definition the joke or observation funny to someone. Given this, it appears to me, subject to further consideration, that the second explanation fits the evidence best. But in a generalzed context, not solely specific to me, option 2 raises some interesting possibilities. Are they laughing because they have a warped sense of humor? For example, a staple of physical humor is near universal laughter when someone slips on the banana peel. Why that is is interesting. But this contrasts with quite sick humor -- for example, someone laughing at a roadside crash. Most would agree that someone finds a road crash funny is repulsive. Yet, somone is laughing, so in a universal objective sense, one can't say its totally humorless. Humorless to most, and perhaps ALL civilized people, but not humorless to all. Another local example. Dr. Pete 'apologized to Tom Pall for his (Peter's) prior humor, which Tom felt was distasteful, innapropriately personal, and referencing posts from many months ago -- nothing Tom currently said. So while I found no humor in Dr. Petes orignal jokes, I found them sort of repulsive, Peter found them quite funny. Thus it can't be said the jokes were humorless in an absolute sense. Someone was laughing. And props to Dr. Pete, he apologized to Tom. Yet in the same post, same paragraph as the apology, he ends by saying something like now lets get back to talkng about things of substance -- about gurus boning students. I gasped upon reading that. Could anyone possibly find that funny? To totally undercut the sense of seriousness of an apology by placing it in the same breath as some IMO juvenile joke.. So different strokes for diffrent folks. Differnt types of funny bones. The point being there appears to be no universal and absolute standard for humor -- though there may be various critical theories just as there are in art, literature and film. But ultimately, some people laugh, some don't. Back to the specific, if I am the only one laughing, it is certainly reasonable, if not imperative, to ask myself, why do I find this funny and others don't. Is my reflexive humor (reflexive in that one can't decide whats funny -- one laughs reflexively at some things and not at others) warped, sick, driven by dark and socialy unacceptable factors? Could be, certainly a lot of good material for reflection and fodder for growth of understanding. Or while the humor might be seen funny among a wider audience, among the 5-6 posters (2) who may make observations on humor on FFL, are there common factors which prevent them from
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This issue of one or more persons (sometimes the majority of active posters) perceiving one partic- ular poster as consistently angry, and abusive because of that anger, suddenly clicked for me this afternoon. I had known that it reminded me of something, but I had not been able to figure out *what* it reminded me of. Bingo! Got it. It reminded me of visiting America recently, my first trip back in over two and a half years. Unless you've lived *outside* the country for a while, and are just re-entering it, you really aren't going to get (or believe) what I'm saying, and in fact you'll get angry about it, and say to yourself, He's full of shit. You're full of shit, Barry. I know this going in, because that's the very phenomenon I'm talking about. If you agree, it's because I'm right. And if you disagree, why, it's becauase I'm right. In the lingo of the anti-cult cult, that's what's known as a thought-stopper. I would say that MOST (and by MOST I mean 80-90% of the people I interacted with during my week in America were ANGRY. I don't imagine you've thought to ask yourself whether the folks you were interacting with were angry because your snotty, elitist way of dealing with people pissed them off. The *first* thing that hits you, if you've been away for a while is the level of F E A R in the air. Almost everyone is afraid, all the time. And if you mention this perception to them, they'll tell you they're not. And THEN they'll get angry at you for having noticed that they're afraid. Or because they *aren't* afraid, and you mentioned your perception to them in a way that was designed to piss them off so you could validate your own wishful thinking. In my experience and observation, people who make a big deal about how angry somebody else is are *afraid* of anger, in particular their own anger. Typically, when they were young, these people were routinely punished for expressing anger, and they internalized the notion that anger was a Bad Thing-- not just Bad, but Dangerous to their very survival. Once they've grown up, they have a tendency to deliberately provoke anger in others whom they perceive to be threats, because that way they can feel in control; they've learned to suppress their own anger, so they can then look down their noses at the people whom they've made angry. In their minds, that defuses the threat and reduces the Anger Danger they so fear. And THEN they'll deny that they're angry. It's just the weirdest thing. Why I think it relates to issues here on FFL is that a number of the posters whom a lot of people agree are out-of-control angry DENY that they're angry. Well, I don't think that they KNOW consciously that they're angry. Anger is their *baseline* state, the thing they settle back *down* to and relax into when their out-of-control moments settle down. Anger is so much a part of their lives, so much the background soundtrack of those lives, that they think it's normal. So they get even angrier when some- one points out that they're angry, because they don't want to admit that they're angry all the time. Sadly, this is my (and a lot of Europeans') view of America and Americans at this time. They're so afraid all the time that it makes them angry almost all the time. But they cannot admit either the anger or the fear to themselves because that would be...uh...like Un-American or something. :-) And even more sadly, that is the scenario in and around a lot of spiritual traditions in which people have been pursuing enlightenment for 20-30 years with no real sign of progress. They can't really *admit* the lack of progress, because that would be off the program and would make it sound like they were doubting the all-holy teacher and tradition, but they're very *aware* of their own lack of progress. ESPECIALLY if someone comes around and talks about a basically normal, everyday experience of enlightenment, something that really *should* be normal and everyday in a real happening tradition. The people hearing this often get really, really, really, really PISSED OFF. And in my opinion that's what you're feeling around FFL right now. This is just my opinion, and I'm just throwing it out there for other people to bounce off of. I'm not going to get involved in defending these ideas or arguing them with some self-styled spiritual drama queen, just because they're in need of an argument today to make them feel alive . They're just ideas. Do with 'em what you want... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to:
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On the other hand, the process of gaining enlightenment is not mumbo jumbo, and particularly the majority of the members here, who have been meditating in this life for decades, the physiology is conditioned to accept enlightenment already, so what is stopping us, from this really very normal experience? Through seeking enlightenment so long, many of us think that seeking is a normal state; some progress, a setback, a flashy experience, and then more of the same. However, it is just as easy to 'break on through to the other side...'. And the reward is well worth it! I think the biggest hurdle is the ego, which thinks *it's* the thing that awakens. Most of the assholiness on FFL is true believers of one sect bashing the true believers of another. I think those who engage in my guru/lineage can beat up your guru/lineage are the addicts that Tom T's recent post referred to. They're addicted to the ideas and dogmas of enlightenment. Teachings can point to truth, but you have to be vigilant against falling into the delusional mind-trap that teachings *are* truth. The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon; the moon is not made of finger. Needless to say, these words and ideas are not truth, and it's the force of my own ego that drives me to post them. Alex Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This issue of one or more persons (sometimes the majority of active posters) perceiving one partic- ular poster as consistently angry, and abusive because of that anger, suddenly clicked for me this afternoon. I had known that it reminded me of something, but I had not been able to figure out *what* it reminded me of. Bingo! Got it. It reminded me of visiting America recently, my first trip back in over two and a half years. Unless you've lived *outside* the country for a while, and are just re-entering it, you really aren't going to get (or believe) what I'm saying, and in fact you'll get angry about it, and say to yourself, He's full of shit. You're full of shit, Barry. Dr. Pete would applaud you. Direct confrontation. No hiding behind satire, sarcasm, passive-aggressivism, parody, irony, etc. Thats the kind of direct talk he likes. (Except apparently when it insults his non-existing ego as Irmeli and Akasha posts / exchanges with DR PS seem to indicate). [I would suspect the above, last sentence would be seen as passive-aggressive by Dr. Pete. But he sees PA everywhere. Maybeit is everywhere. But it reminds me of the guy with abig hammer to whom EVERYTHING looks like the head of a nail. Well the PA hypothesis is certainly a hypothesis for consideration. I will ponder it. However, such a comment is also parallel and characteristic to what commonly is termed observational humor. A favorite mode of many favorite comics and on-liner adficionados (Seinfeld, Leno, Carlin -- and Barry). It raises the question: is observational humor passive-aggressive? Always? Never? Sometimes? I will openly consider the full range of these questions. Still like some, I laugh at the notion of a non-ego that does not exist, being insulted. Call me sick if you must, but THATS funny. I know this going in, because that's the very phenomenon I'm talking about. If you agree, it's because I'm right. And if you disagree, why, it's becauase I'm right. Yes, there are some funny exchanges going on. Using Dr Petes favorite analogy (used to describe discussion and incredibility of his realization) but in this context, generalized to you are angry or, for that matter, any assertions made by others to oneself: Its raining. I am walking in the rain. I am soaking wet and someone insists I am perfectly dry. if One agrees (with the wrong statement) its because the observer is right. If one disagrees (with the wrong statement) you are in denial -- and the observer is still right. It gets funnier because the observers in recent exchanges then say -- I can't and I refuse to talk to you unless you acknowledge I am right (regardless of how silly my claims are), you are perfecly dry! In the lingo of the anti-cult cult, that's what's known as a thought-stopper. I would suggest the above is at least also a thought stopper. I would say that MOST (and by MOST I mean 80-90% of the people I interacted with during my week in America were ANGRY. I don't imagine you've thought to ask yourself whether the folks you were interacting with were angry because your snotty, elitist way of dealing with people pissed them off. Yes, when someone comes up to you in person, or the list, and says Why are you so angry!?, and you say, gee, I am not angry, that DENIAL is something they sometimes interpret as anger. As some obervational humorists would say Go figure! Or because they *aren't* afraid, and you mentioned your perception to them in a way that was designed to piss them off so you could validate your own wishful thinking. In my experience and observation, people who make a big deal about how angry somebody else is are *afraid* of anger, in particular their own anger. I think projecion is always a good hypothesis to consider.It may not always be active, but more so than many realize, IMO. Typically, when they were young, these people were routinely punished for expressing anger, and they internalized the notion that anger was a Bad Thing-- not just Bad, but Dangerous to their very survival. Once they've grown up, they have a tendency to deliberately provoke anger in others whom they perceive to be threats, because that way they can feel in control; they've learned to suppress their own anger, so they can then look down their noses at the people whom they've made angry. In their minds, that defuses the threat and reduces the Anger Danger they so fear. Ineresting dynamic. Not always applicable, but always a worthy hypothesis to consider. In ones own reactions, but also in trying to understand not so apparently rational behavior in others. This list is a great lab for that. And THEN they'll deny that they're angry. It's just the weirdest thing. Why I think it relates to issues
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
A point regarding this issue of one or more persons perceiving other posters as angry, and abusive -- suddenly clicked for me this afternoon. I had known that it reminded me of something, but I had not been able to figure out *what* is so intriguing. The premeise appears to be that content of a post is not the thing, its the percieved emotional state of the poster that is paramont. If a poster is percieved as angry, or some other non acceptable state, then their content is discounted outright. Putting aside the difficulty of assessing a strangers state from miles away, from words alone, it seems that fundamental that content that which is important. Art and literature, while not of the same level as posts on this list, have all been created by those in various states: in pain, sufffering, angry, depressed, content, exaulted, drunk, stoned, sleepy, actualzed, up for 4-days straigt, etc. While their state may be an interesting foot note, it does not determine, in any absolute or even substantial sense, the merits of the content of the material. That state over content, ideas, concepts, information is of primary interest for some is a go figure phenomenon. Bingo! Got it. It reminded me of visiting America recently, my first trip back in over two and a half years. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 12/19/05 10:36 AM, TurquoiseB at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They can't really *admit* the lack of progress, because that would be off the program and would make it sound like they were doubting the all-holy teacher and tradition, but they're very *aware* of their own lack of progress. ESPECIALLY if someone comes around and talks about a basically normal, everyday experience of enlightenment, something that really *should* be normal and everyday in a real happening tradition. The people hearing this often get really, really, really, really PISSED OFF. I can attest to this bit, here in FF. Some people get really upset at the suggestion that people around town might actually be enlightened, or Awake, or whatever you want to call it. It threatens their belief structure. Probably because these so-called enlightened people seem so ordinary. Remind them of MMY's characterization of CC as merely normal or glorified ignorance. Besides, even within CC, there are ranges of maturity, from what MMY has said, and from my own internal observation of what I suspect are flashes of CC. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/CQDrNC/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On the other hand, the process of gaining enlightenment is not mumbo jumbo, and particularly the majority of the members here, who have been meditating in this life for decades, the physiology is conditioned to accept enlightenment already, so what is stopping us, from this really very normal experience? Through seeking enlightenment so long, many of us think that seeking is a normal state; some progress, a setback, a flashy experience, and then more of the same. However, it is just as easy to 'break on through to the other side...'. And the reward is well worth it! I think the biggest hurdle is the ego, which thinks *it's* the thing that awakens. Most of the assholiness on FFL is true believers of one sect bashing the true believers of another. I think those who engage in my guru/lineage can beat up your guru/lineage are the addicts that Tom T's recent post referred to. They're addicted to the ideas and dogmas of enlightenment. Teachings can point to truth, but you have to be vigilant against falling into the delusional mind-trap that teachings *are* truth. The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon; the moon is not made of finger. Needless to say, these words and ideas are not truth, and it's the force of my own ego that drives me to post them. Alex And on top of it all, why are you so rageful that you're giving me the finger? Pointing at the moon, ha! ;-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/abEMxA/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
I have reached a similar conclusion myself. This is how I have conceptualized it: Most of us Movement lifers (NOT to be confused with Fairfield Lifers, although there is significant overlap between sets; lifer is used here as it's used elsewhere, in cases where one joins upor is committedfor life, ie the remainder of one's days)most Movement lifers who are also Americans are facing not just one, but two huge disappointments. Of those who held out highest hopes for the Movement, I am guessing most (except True Believers) are disappointed. For those who were idealistic and committed, joining the Movement meant that one had become one of the elect few who were going to save the world. Literally. I know it sounds silly now, but that is what many of us believed. Now it is difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the world is being saved. So the Dream is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. [Yes, I know that some of you who read this were too smart to be taken in and are saying What disappointment?, but in this instance I am addressing the fate of those who truly believed. And we were many.] At the same time, many are discovering that their deeply ingrained concepts about America (US of A) were likewise illusionary. What we had thought to be the land of the free and the home of the brave has turned out to be the Evil Empire. Not only is the world not being saved, but we are the ones who are fucking it up. Either one of these disappointments by itself could prove quite painful, but both at once is, for some people, simply to painful to bear. Not only that, but our fundamental paradigms have been so brutally shaken that it's difficult to see where the crumbling of reality will end. Hence the fear. Hence the denial. And the anger. So I agree with your observation. The general state of mental health in this country is not very good, nor among TM people, either. The stress levels are very high. People are literally out of control, as witness much of what happens in this very forum. I would add one point. There is no logical answer to this dilemma. Awakening, which is NOT a logical answer, but a change of awareness, does nothing to the dilemma as such, but at least releases the awakened from the suffering. Aside from thatin the world as I see it now, there is only one commodity which is really useful: kindness. Unfortunately it is seldom in evidence in this forum, although it does manifest from time to time. A few weeks ago, Tom Pall genuinely apologized for one of his posts to Dr Pete, spontaneously and almost immediately after sending it. The significance of that event eventually was buried under the subsequent avalanches of neurotic posts which seem to charactize this list lately. I am not against this, by the way, although my interest in participating is somewhat limited. I have already adopted the skimming approach that others have recommended, and yes, it does make it easier to catch up. L B S --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This issue of one or more persons (sometimes the majority of active posters) perceiving one partic- ular poster as consistently angry, and abusive because of that anger, suddenly clicked for me this afternoon. I had known that it reminded me of something, but I had not been able to figure out *what* it reminded me of. Bingo! Got it. It reminded me of visiting America recently, my first trip back in over two and a half years. Unless you've lived *outside* the country for a while, and are just re-entering it, you really aren't going to get (or believe) what I'm saying, and in fact you'll get angry about it, and say to yourself, He's full of shit. I know this going in, because that's the very phenomenon I'm talking about. I would say that MOST (and by MOST I mean 80-90% of the people I interacted with during my week in America were ANGRY. The *first* thing that hits you, if you've been away for a while is the level of F E A R in the air. Almost everyone is afraid, all the time. And if you mention this perception to them, they'll tell you they're not. And THEN they'll get angry at you for having noticed that they're afraid. And THEN they'll deny that they're angry. It's just the weirdest thing. Why I think it relates to issues here on FFL is that a number of the posters whom a lot of people agree are out-of-control angry DENY that they're angry. Well, I don't think that they KNOW consciously that they're angry. Anger is their *baseline* state, the thing they settle back *down* to and relax into when their out-of-control moments settle down. Anger is so much a part of their lives, so much the background soundtrack of those lives, that they think it's normal. So they get even angrier when some- one points out that they're angry, because they don't want to admit that they're angry all
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- L B Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A few weeks ago, Tom Pall genuinely apologized for one of his posts to Dr Pete, spontaneously and almost immediately after sending it. You know, I didn't catch that post and I'm sorry I didn't see it. I also should apologize for Tom for making a wise-ass crack at his expense. It was funny, but at his expense. So, perhaps time to forgive all around. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This issue of one or more persons (sometimes the majority of active posters) perceiving one partic- ular poster as consistently angry, and abusive because of that anger, suddenly clicked for me this afternoon. I had known that it reminded me of something, but I had not been able to figure out *what* it reminded me of. Bingo! Got it. It reminded me of visiting America recently, my first trip back in over two and a half years. Unless you've lived *outside* the country for a while, and are just re-entering it, you really aren't going to get (or believe) what I'm saying, and in fact you'll get angry about it, and say to yourself, He's full of shit. I know this going in, because that's the very phenomenon I'm talking about. I would say that MOST (and by MOST I mean 80-90% of the people I interacted with during my week in America were ANGRY. The *first* thing that hits you, if you've been away for a while is the level of F E A R in the air. Almost everyone is afraid, all the time. And if you mention this perception to them, they'll tell you they're not. And THEN they'll get angry at you for having noticed that they're afraid. And THEN they'll deny that they're angry. It's just the weirdest thing. Why I think it relates to issues here on FFL is that a number of the posters whom a lot of people agree are out-of-control angry DENY that they're angry. Well, I don't think that they KNOW consciously that they're angry. Anger is their *baseline* state, the thing they settle back *down* to and relax into when their out-of-control moments settle down. Anger is so much a part of their lives, so much the background soundtrack of those lives, that they think it's normal. So they get even angrier when some- one points out that they're angry, because they don't want to admit that they're angry all the time. Sadly, this is my (and a lot of Europeans') view of America and Americans at this time. They're so afraid all the time that it makes them angry almost all the time. But they cannot admit either the anger or the fear to themselves because that would be...uh...like Un-American or something. :-) And even more sadly, that is the scenario in and around a lot of spiritual traditions in which people have been pursuing enlightenment for 20-30 years with no real sign of progress. They can't really *admit* the lack of progress, because that would be off the program and would make it sound like they were doubting the all-holy teacher and tradition, but they're very *aware* of their own lack of progress. ESPECIALLY if someone comes around and talks about a basically normal, everyday experience of enlightenment, something that really *should* be normal and everyday in a real happening tradition. The people hearing this often get really, really, really, really PISSED OFF. And in my opinion that's what you're feeling around FFL right now. This is just my opinion, and I'm just throwing it out there for other people to bounce off of. I'm not going to get === message truncated === __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 12/19/05 10:36 AM, TurquoiseB at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They can't really *admit* the lack of progress, because that would be off the program and would make it sound like they were doubting the all-holy teacher and tradition, but they're very *aware* of their own lack of progress. ESPECIALLY if someone comes around and talks about a basically normal, everyday experience of enlightenment, something that really *should* be normal and everyday in a real happening tradition. The people hearing this often get really, really, really, really PISSED OFF. I can attest to this bit, here in FF. Some people get really upset at the suggestion that people around town might actually be enlightened, or Awake, or whatever you want to call it. It threatens their belief structure. Probably because these so-called enlightened people seem so ordinary. That's why they are pejoritively labeled 'so-called enlightened'. (We wouldn't want people actually getting enlightened, now would we...) JohnY Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the You're angry / No, I'm not thang
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 12/19/05 10:36 AM, TurquoiseB at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They can't really *admit* the lack of progress, because that would be off the program and would make it sound like they were doubting the all-holy teacher and tradition, but they're very *aware* of their own lack of progress. ESPECIALLY if someone comes around and talks about a basically normal, everyday experience of enlightenment, something that really *should* be normal and everyday in a real happening tradition. The people hearing this often get really, really, really, really PISSED OFF. I can attest to this bit, here in FF. Some people get really upset at the suggestion that people around town might actually be enlightened, or Awake, or whatever you want to call it. It threatens their belief structure. Probably because these so-called enlightened people seem so ordinary. That's why they are pejoritively labeled 'so-called enlightened'. (We wouldn't want people actually getting enlightened, now would we...) JohnY Enlightened is wonderful. Brahman clones and proclamants, more dour, angry and depressed than Max van Sydow in all his Imgmar Bergman films, is questionable. One who shouts down inquisitors, calls them frauds and liars, and to suck eggs is questionable, Those proclaiming great advaida-speak in one post, then totally contradicting it in the next post, is questionable. One proclaiming No ego, No I and yet is uber-sensitive to perceived (not actual) insults, is questionable. One proclaiming total and eternal liberation, and total support of nature, who is entrapped in dogma, is questionable. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
