Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-11-02 Thread Vaj


On Nov 2, 2005, at 1:17 AM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   On Nov 1, 2005, at 3:38 PM, brahmachari108 wrote:  Notions of CC, GC, UC are inventions of Mahesh Yogi. Where in Veda are these mentioned? What is above or below in the state of Turiya?   CC = samkhya and yoga GC = mimamsa and Vaishnava devotionalism. UC = Badarayana sutras  and numerous other places. Definitive work on CC and UC is   jivanmuktiviveka of Shankaracharya Vidyaranya.  Mahesh weaned his take on these from reading the various  commentaries   of the Badaraynana sutras, esp. favoring Shankara's  bhasya/comments/POV.   Sez me old friend, Sanskrit and Vedic music scholar, Anoop  Chandola, "no-one can listen to him [MMY] without realizing that he  is obviously speaking from personal experience..." Consensus gentium and argumentum ad verecundiam. No one?





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-11-01 Thread Vaj

On Nov 1, 2005, at 3:38 PM, brahmachari108 wrote:

 Notions of CC, GC, UC are inventions of Mahesh Yogi.
 Where in Veda are these mentioned?
 What is above or below in the state of Turiya?


CC = samkhya and yoga
GC = mimamsa and Vaishnava devotionalism.
UC = Badarayana sutras

and numerous other places. Definitive work on CC and UC is  
jivanmuktiviveka of Shankaracharya Vidyaranya.

Mahesh weaned his take on these from reading the various commentaries  
of the Badaraynana sutras, esp. favoring Shankara's bhasya/comments/POV.


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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment..

2005-11-01 Thread Vaj

On Nov 1, 2005, at 3:55 PM, brahmachari108 wrote:

 Reading your words and most others on their proclamations betrays  
 the level of so called
 enlightenment.
 Do you think that if someone were truly enlightened, he would feel  
 the need to tell
 others? What other exists in enlightenment?
 If enlightenment is egoless, then what drives this need?

applause

A fully enlightened Buddha cannot declare himself enlightened as it  
will harm other sentient beings.



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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment..

2005-11-01 Thread Peter


--- brahmachari108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

snip

 
 Reading your words and most others on their
 proclamations betrays the level of so called 
 enlightenment.
 Do you think that if someone were truly enlightened,
 he would feel the need to tell 
 others? What other exists in enlightenment?
 If enlightenment is egoless, then what drives this
 need?

The incentive to act is the same in the enlightened as
well as the unenlightened. Just that the unenlightened
think that they do it. The enlightened know that
nobody does anything. It just happens like the rising
and setting of the sun. But this understanding is
utterly useless for the dharma of waking state, that's
for sure! 




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment..

2005-11-01 Thread Vaj

On Nov 1, 2005, at 5:34 PM, Peter wrote:



 --- brahmachari108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 snip



 Reading your words and most others on their
 proclamations betrays the level of so called
 enlightenment.
 Do you think that if someone were truly enlightened,
 he would feel the need to tell
 others? What other exists in enlightenment?
 If enlightenment is egoless, then what drives this
 need?


 The incentive to act is the same in the enlightened as
 well as the unenlightened. Just that the unenlightened
 think that they do it. The enlightened know that
 nobody does anything. It just happens like the rising
 and setting of the sun. But this understanding is
 utterly useless for the dharma of waking state, that's
 for sure!

The enlightened know that?

Bumper sticker I'd like to see:

Narcissus loves me.



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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-15 Thread Vaj

On Oct 15, 2005, at 9:39 AM, authfriend wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Oct 14, 2005, at 3:38 PM, authfriend wrote:


 The
 Patanjali sutras are yoga/samkhya darshana Judy and what is the
 result of yoga darshana Judy? I'll give you a hint, it begin
 with C...


 I wasn't aware there was a yoga darshana that
 had my name on it.  How strange!


 Typical. Avoid the question. Why are you afraid to answer that
 question Judy?


 Vaj, the question is *irrelevant*.  The topic is what
 MMY teaches about the purpose of TM-Sidhis practice,
 not what *you* believe is the purpose.  Why are you
 afraid to deal with what MMY teaches?

I thought you'd dodge the question again. I know this is painful for  
you.

My dear, I am dealing with this by pointing out important  
discrepancies in what Patanjali taught and what Mahesh attempted.  
That's in no way to diminish that Mahesh used to present a great  
intro. method. It had it's good aspects. Sadly, it didn't pan out  
well, but maybe that's more than can be expected for a mass  
meditation movement--some issues are more personal and more one-on-one.

When you're willing to talk about specifics of Patanjali/Yoga  
darshana/Samkhya darshana, write back.




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-15 Thread Rick Archer
on 10/15/05 10:54 PM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe none ofthem are attempting to beat the
 world record. The olympic level athletes reportedly have at least
 short-term health problems after the run.

This topic has morphed. It would be good to change the subject line.




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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-14 Thread Paula Youmans










Hi Akasha,





First, many here and elsewhere have so many
understandings of the term, use of such a label,
in contrast to direct
descriptors of an experience, has little communicative
value IMO.



I know
lol. I hear that word used so much, and I swear .I dont know what
it means lol. 

Second, I don't feel there is an endpoint (for our
purposes) to
refinement and expansion - and to me,
E, connates some endpoint. 

I dont
think there is a real endpoint either; for MANY reasons.

Worse yet, E conveys a goal. 

I know
lol. Kind of like when people discuss the path to enlightenment as if there is
a point of demarcation where there is not path and then path. 
I mean,one is the path (at least to my way of thinking). 


I am not pegging you as having this or that type
of experience or
understanding of it. I am not offering advice.
Just offering a joke.
Laughing is its own reward. A result of holding a
paradox in the mind
(like where does space begin?) or the
fusion of disparate ideas or
concepts. A Gap opener. And that has its own
reward and insights.


haha, I didnt think you were
calling me out or anything lol. If anything I wondered if I sounded like a brat
or something and thought perhaps I should choose my words better.

The problem I have is that I kept having
these spontaneous awakeningsThey were incredible, but far beyond my ability
to handle them. So far beyond that I was akin to an infant with a hand gun. It
was ruining my life on a very physical level. 

I finally met a person who taught me how
to control it to a degree, so things dont just sweep me away much
anymore (that is a very good thing). 

Any degree of control is a new development
for me and I am very much a beginner at certain practices. 

I ask questions because all I have is
experience and I try to match up the words so that I can try and understand
more (and learn more). 

Im actually learning Hindi right
nowI think that will help me understand a little better.



I meanright now, sometimes I dont
even know if I am asking the right question J 












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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-14 Thread Vaj


On Oct 13, 2005, at 11:20 PM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" [EMAIL PROTECTED]  wrote:  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" [EMAIL PROTECTED]  wrote:  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz"  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  wrote:  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Youmans"  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  wrote:   I told Tom he was enlightened and he told me that I was enlightened, so there.  Haha.have you ever had someone tell you that you had reached enlightenment?   It's a lot like someone informing you of a past life you don't remember; or getting the gas bill:"Okeedoke, I'll take your word for it" lolSeriously.how does anyone ever know???  Objectively?  I belive MMY says that levitation is proof of samadhi.  I suppose this means that if a person who is a known TMSP- practitioner repeatedly can take-off, hoover and settle down in a controlled manner, chances are this person is CC or above.   I believe MMY said that fully-perfected levitation (i.e.  floating)  (or other sidhi) done on-demand at any time outside of sutra  practice  would be a sign of fully-established Unity, not CC.  He's also implied that NOT being able to float at all is a sign  of  NOT being in Unity.   Given your first definition, the second would have to be true, wouldn't it?  Fully in Unity is not, as far as I can gather, the same as being in  Unity (somewhat/someofthetime/sorta). There would be gradiations of  maturity or whatever. Non-advaita paths generally use Unity as the Goal (or Fruit) and true Advaita paths utilize Unity as the Path.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-14 Thread Vaj


On Oct 14, 2005, at 3:07 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:On the other hand, I disagree completely with levitation being any measure of one's state of consciousness.  It's  just a skill.  You can either do it or you can't.  It don't say bupkus about your state of consciousness.   If it was then you'd have to accept that Darth Vader was in Unity...and as everyone knows, he wasn't (well not sure about the last episode, it was kinda vague).





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-14 Thread Peter


--- TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, peterklutz
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  
   Haven't you ever considered the possibility that
 
   Maharishi just said that to get people to pay a 
   lot of money for his made-up Patanjali tech-
   niques, and to keep practicing them?
  
  
  Okay, I am getting a bit confused here. 
  
  Are you a TMSP-practitioner yourself?
 
 I took the Sidhis course, flew the first day,
 was bored with the whole thing by the second
 day.  Haven't practiced them in decades.
 
 I just don't believe that the techniques that
 are taught by Maharishi have *anything* to do
 with what Patanjali was talking about.  They're
 a made-up invention in my opinion.
 
 I also don't believe that the siddhis have
 *anything* whatsoever to do with enlightenment
 or the cultivation thereof.  Apples and oranges.
 
 Clear enough?


No,no, not at all. If I was your guru I'd tell you
that knowledge can't be only intellectual, you must
have the direct experience. So practice the siddhis
regularly for 28 years, then you will know directly.


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-14 Thread Peter


--- sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

snip
 
 The kind of levitation/floating that MMY claims to
 be referring to is 
 the kind that you can photograph and perform before
 a skeptical 
 audience.

But this has never happened, right? So why not talk
about the man in the moon?



 
 
 
 
 
 
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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-14 Thread Paula Youmans










So, when we stop living the surrealistic reality of our assumed 
limitations, and become free, we are said to then
be 'enlightened'. 
But it is merely relative to what our past
experience has been. 









Hi Jim thanks for your reply. 

I was thinking about that line you wrote
above and you must be right. 



It also made me realize that it is a
concept that I dont need to put in a box to wrap my hands around. 

I dont really like using words that
I dont have a clear idea of what it means, but I think I am getting a
better understanding.

Kind of like when people say they are
brokeI used to think that it meant that they have no money, but people
dont use it that way at all. 

Ive heard people that were in my
eyes very wealthy, say that they were broke when what they meant is they have
less money than they did last week. 


Perhaps we prize it so greatly because of the
subjective experience 
both of inner and outer freedom, and the
knowledge, ability, 
responsibility and love that comes with it. 



Sometimes I wonder if a
part of me is being lazy and looking for some endpoint so I can go back to
watching family guy and eating cheetos (Im teasing kind of).



And yet, once this state of inner and outer freedom is
reached, life 
goes on, relative responsibilities and
achievements continue



Like the old saying; before
enlightenment one chops wood and carries water. After enlightenment, one chops
wood and carries water.

Ugh. 



Yet, on the horizon of our timeless lives ...another
enlightenment 
beckons...



YEAH!! :-D














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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-14 Thread Paula Youmans












Objectively?

I belive MMY
says that levitation is proof of samadhi.

I suppose
this means that if a person who is a known TMSP-practitioner
repeatedly
can take-off, hoover and settle down in a controlled
manner,
chances are this person is CC or above.







Im thinking if what has already
happened freaked me out as bad as it did, that my feet leaving the ground would
send me into a panicky ball of blubbering goo.

If that ever happens, someone better be
with me so they can slap me across the face.



I would like to see someone else do it
though that would be fun

















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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-14 Thread Peter


--- TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  snip
   
   The kind of levitation/floating that MMY claims
 to
   be referring to is 
   the kind that you can photograph and perform
 before
   a skeptical 
   audience.
  
  But this has never happened, right? So why not
 talk
  about the man in the moon?
 
 Given the lower gravity, the man in the moon
 will probably levitate before TM-sidhas do.
 
 Now that I think of it, though, even butt-
 bouncing would be a lot of fun on the moon.  
 You'd probably get a few ten- or twenty-meter
 hops in each session.

That would be fun, wouldn't it? I wonder if any of the
astronauts that walked on the moon ever talked about
how much fun it was to bound around on the moon's
surface.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-14 Thread Vaj


On Oct 14, 2005, at 1:09 PM, peterklutz wrote:I think serious seekers in the TMO are far closer to E than they might realize, the reason being the fact that they live in a world (until this summer) controlled by Kali. Didn't M. say the opposite, that people would be surprised (at how advanced they really were, i.e. that they couldn't levitate)?  I am also convinced that many of them also have reached the required physiological degree of purity to sustain that state which allows them to levitate, but that the ambient atmosphere is fore-checking this and holding them back.  I always thought that M.'s statement that 'the reason people couldn't hover was because of low coherence' was BS; then I heard the Dalai Lama's response to the same question and he stated 'people used to be able to levitate much easier and much higher (i.e when he was a child and before), but now the world consciousness is too coarse.' Of course he was commenting on the novices which the questioner observed. There are other more advanced mahamudra practitioners who can but have not (as of yet) been up for public scrutiny by outsiders.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread Peter


--- authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 snip
  As a kid, maybe starting at 8 or 10, I had a
 repeated inquiry -- I
  was a curious sort of kid (as in inquisitive and
 odd). I kept 
  looking at the sky and visualizing another kid my
 age -- in Japan 
  actually -- though I had not much connection
 there. I think it was 
  my idea of as different and foreign as could be
 (this was around 
  1960). 
  
  And I kept asking myself, what makes me different
 from him. It was
  clear that there were surface differences -- that
 was the point in
  choosing someone in a vastly different culture.
 But I was after the
  question of identity: what is it that makes me
 me different from
  what makes him him.
 
 I remember something similar to this, although much
 less elaborate.  I was a few years younger, I think.
 It suddenly occurred to me that other people must
 have
 a me inside them just as I did.  It felt very
 counterintuitive to think my consciousness was not
 the
 only consciousness, but it had to be the case
 because
 other people clearly behaved as though they had
 their
 own.  With considerable reluctance, I accepted that
 this was just the way it was, and it became part of
 my outlook.
 
 I also remember, roughly around the same time,
 wondering
 what it would be like if I could stop thinking.  I
 tried
 and tried but couldn't do it.  Essentially, I
 realized
 that trying not to think was itself a thought,
 although
 I didn't phrase it that way to myself.  And I gave
 up,
 figuring that was just the way it was.
 
 My memories of these two occasions remained very
 clear,
 though, and they came to mind immediately when I
 began
 to learn something about TM.  It was a source of
 some
 satisfaction to know my intuitions as a child had
 been
 on the money, if a bit frustrating that I hadn't
 been
 willing to trust them.
 
 I suspect most kids have these moments.  If we could
 only get to them and confirm their insights before
 they give up and accept the Standard Model, maybe
 they'd be able to grow up enlightened.

When I was around 9 or 10 my best friend and I used to
play this game. We would sit quietly and begin to
negate our experience piece by piece. We'd alternate
saying things like, The tree in the front yard
doesn't exist. Your parents car doesn't exist. School
doesn't exist., etc. We'd slowly negate everything we
could think of. Finally we'd come to the end after
negating the entire creation and we'd negate ourselves
simultaneously. I remember there would be this
explosion of energy and we'd both freakout and run
outside screaming in delight.




 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread Peter


--- TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
  When I was around 9 or 10 my best friend and I
 used to
  play this game. We would sit quietly and begin to
  negate our experience piece by piece. We'd
 alternate
  saying things like, The tree in the front yard
  doesn't exist. Your parents car doesn't exist.
 School
  doesn't exist., etc. We'd slowly negate
 everything we
  could think of. Finally we'd come to the end after
  negating the entire creation and we'd negate
 ourselves
  simultaneously. I remember there would be this
  explosion of energy and we'd both freakout and
 run
  outside screaming in delight.
 
 So you're the ones who made my school disappear.
 I always wondered who did that, and wanted to
 thank them.

No problem, man.


  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread Vaj


On Oct 12, 2005, at 9:43 PM, akasha_108 wrote:Does the switching experience I described correspond to any types of "standard" transmissions that you are aware of?Anything's possible but nothing specific I could add.  Does the clothng I described, white cloak, hood, dark bue symbol laden embrodery ring a bell for any monastic or adept orders of children for which you are familiar? Either now/ 1960's or any time in the past?Not particularly although there is the white sangha (as opposed to the red one) which are lamas/gurus which marry (rather then being celibate), although they don't necessarily wear blue are part of their get up. I'm not real familiar with Chinese and Japanese spirituality other than Taoism.  Are there / were there any 10 year old adepts doing such transmissions?Sure. Often reincarnated lamas, etc. begin teaching at an early age--some when they are half that age. But it just seems to fit together in a way. Maybe just an unknown, that is, unconscious (to me) ego mechanism flaming up to make me feel "spiritual".Perhaps, perhaps also a past life memory. In some cases, past life memories are only remembered towards the beginning of our lives, when we are children.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread Vaj


On Oct 13, 2005, at 9:44 AM, Irmeli Mattsson wrote:It puzzles me also, why people, when they stop identifying the 'I'  with an image of one's personal self, say there is no 'I' anymore.  The `I' is the subject, who feels, sees, interprets and evaluates  situations, makes meaning, uses concepts like enlightenment in  communication, relates to others, is in dialogue with others. The  fact that something is being perceived is based on subject/object  dualism. The perceiver is subject, the perceived is object.  The `I', the subject, cannot see itself. If it can, there is an error  in interpreting. The subject can see only something that is object to  itself. In enlightenment this error vanishes. And another error seems  to appear, the idea that there is no `I'. The whole topic is rather interesting. This would certainly not be considered enlightenment IMO--merely a transitory realization that "I" is empty and not "solid". Really from a Buddhist perspective, if one is enlightened one does not claim it for a number of reasons--it causes sentient beings to argue, it creates jealousy, etc. Therefore a Buddha cannot make a declaration which will cause suffering.  From that POV one who claims to be "enlightened" typically is not. I have to wonder if that is one of the reasons the Surangama sutra is mentioned in movement literature (and lectures)--so that people might pick it up and read it. It details all the ways that people are fooled into believing they are enlightened--and I'm sure this is one of them. IIRC it also prophecizes that at the end of the Kali yuga, large numbers of people who are not enlightened will surface, claiming to be.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread Peter


--- Irmeli Mattsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

snip

 
 It puzzles me also, why people, when they stop
 identifying the 'I' 
 with an image of one's personal self, say there is
 no 'I' anymore.

Because no I or psychological sense of me is
present. It can't be found. When people (in avidya)
say me they are refering to a sense of separate
individuality. An abstract, felt-sense of me-ness
that is private and distinct from others' me-ness. 

 The `I' is the subject, who feels, sees, interprets
 and evaluates 
 situations, makes meaning, uses concepts like
 enlightenment in 
 communication, relates to others, is in dialogue
 with others.

Yes, this is all true in avidya. It is a
phenomenological reality. I exist, I think, I
feel, I interprate and evaluate, I make meaning.
There is always, except in deep sleep, this underlying
sense of I.

 The 
 fact that something is being perceived is based on
 subject/object 
 dualism. The perceiver is subject, the perceived is
 object. 
 The `I', the subject, cannot see itself. If it can,
 there is an error in perception.

All this is true in waking state/avidya. 
 
 The subject can see only something
 that is object to 
 itself. In enlightenment this error vanishes. And
 another error seems 
 to appear, the idea that there is no `I'.

No, it is not an error. You are extending waking state
logic into realization and it falls apart there. In
realization no individuality or sense of me can be
located. There is thought, there is feeling, there is
everything just like waking state, but there is no I
or me present. It just can't be located! People say
your name as if refering to a you, but there is no
you present.

This I is a delusion created by the identification
of pure consciousness with bound mind. Consciousness
projects into and identifies with a subjective object
and assumes the limitations of that object.
Patanjali's metaphor of the crystal gem assuming the
color of whatever it is placed on works well. The
crystal appears to be colored. I mean, damn boy, I can
see that it's colored! That's the phenomenology of
waking state. But consciousness is not bound by any
object even when it appears to be bound (hence the
you're already enlightened rap). The initial
stage/condition of liberation is this cessation of
projection/identification of counsciousness with
objects of experience. Once counsciousness pulls
back into itself there is no longer any
identification occuring and hence no boundary or
relative limitation to consciousness. Full awareness,
but no I to lay claim to be doing anything. There is
nobody home, but all the lights are on and everything 
is working just fine. That sense of I is just a very
subtle thought. Self-inquiry will reveal this.  


 
 Irmeli
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread Peter


--- Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Oct 13, 2005, at 9:44 AM, Irmeli Mattsson wrote:
 
  It puzzles me also, why people, when they stop
 identifying the 'I'
  with an image of one's personal self, say there is
 no 'I' anymore.
 
  The `I' is the subject, who feels, sees,
 interprets and evaluates
  situations, makes meaning, uses concepts like
 enlightenment in
  communication, relates to others, is in dialogue
 with others. The
  fact that something is being perceived is based on
 subject/object
  dualism. The perceiver is subject, the perceived
 is object.
  The `I', the subject, cannot see itself. If it
 can, there is an error
  in interpreting. The subject can see only
 something that is object to
  itself. In enlightenment this error vanishes. And
 another error seems
  to appear, the idea that there is no `I'.
 
 The whole topic is rather interesting. This would
 certainly not be  
 considered enlightenment IMO--merely a transitory
 realization that  
 I is empty and not solid. Really from a Buddhist
 perspective, if  
 one is enlightened one does not claim it for a
 number of reasons--it  
 causes sentient beings to argue, it creates
 jealousy, etc. Therefore  
 a Buddha cannot make a declaration which will cause
 suffering.  From  
 that POV one who claims to be enlightened
 typically is not. I have  
 to wonder if that is one of the reasons the
 Surangama sutra is  
 mentioned in movement literature (and lectures)--so
 that people might  
 pick it up and read it. It details all the ways that
 people are  
 fooled into believing they are enlightened--and I'm
 sure this is one  
 of them.

Hence I call CC baby realization. Just the first
experiential clarification occuring.


 

 
 




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread Peter


--- sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In 
 FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
 tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
   Tom T:
   I have two friends who are Enlightened 
  
  Spare egg writes:
  And you know this because?
  
  Tom T:
  Takes one to know one. and as Rick insinuated I
 know a lot more than
  two. More like 32 or so. I was referring to these
 specific two who had
  the same experience independently of each other.
 Your milage may 
 vary. Tom
 
 
 And you know you're enlightened, how?

I told Tom he was enlightened and he told me that I
was enlightened, so there.



 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread Peter


--- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
 Full awareness,
  but no I to lay claim to be doing anything.
 There is
  nobody home, but all the lights are on and
 everything 
  is working just fine. That sense of I is just a
 very
  subtle thought. Self-inquiry will reveal this.  
 
 Although I no longer exists, do you find that you
 can think that 
 very subtle thought anyway, if you choose to?

Why would one imagine they are an ostrich if they are
not?



 
 
 
 
 
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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread Paula Youmans













I told Tom he was enlightened and he told me that
I
was enlightened, so there.







Hahahave you ever had someone tell
you that you had reached enlightenment? 

Its a lot like someone informing
you of a past life you dont remember; or getting the gas bill:



Okeedoke, Ill take your word
for it lol



Seriouslyhow does anyone ever
know???






















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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread Peter


--- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
  
  Why would one imagine they are an ostrich if they
 are
  not?
  
 Yeah- it does get a little hypothetical. I guess
 you'd have to ask the 
 ostrich...

I could pretend I was a doumbek


 
 
 
 
 
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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread Paula Youmans











To be like Shiva. He does it all the time.









Plus Ostriches are cool, and by cool I
mean totally sweet!

Fast as hell they are. Swsh

:-D

















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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread Paula Youmans










Yikes, not at all. 

And if I did, asking would hardly help me
(as I was stating).

I ask because people speak of
enlightenment as if they know what it is and have never been able to find out. 

So to answer your questions


 I
 want to know
 you
 couldnt pay me to take such a label
 I
 guess
 not
 to me, but Ive never claimed to be smart. Im more of the
 pleasant type




Do you know?













Peter 
 I told Tom he was enlightened and he told me
that I
 was enlightened, so there.

Paula
 Seriously.how does anyone ever know???


Who wants to know? Do you feel you would be
enhanced with such a
christening or label? If so, isn't that telling?
Doesn't that in
itself convey the answer?















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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-12 Thread Paula Youmans











Irmeli wrote:


People can get enlightened without these inner
structures. Then they
tend to think they are fully perfect as they are
and also superior
beings. They desperately need their enlightenment
to be seen, and
themselves to be seen as superior, because that is
their personality
structure. The personal self, that cannot work
with one's issues needs
all the time adulation and a feeling of power to
feel good about
oneself. Problems are seen in the world. These
people can create a lot
of unnecessary havoc, but also help some in
getting enlightened.

I personally think nowadays that it is probably
better that people
develop the inner structures mentioned above
before the experience of
enlightenment.

Irmeli

***



Hello  I am
very new on this list, but wanted to respond to this last bit. I am one of
those people who somehow managed to experience things in reverse order.
Strangely, it had the opposite effect on my ego...to the point that I felt I wasnt
even allowed one. 

The real point I
wanted to make about reaching those experiences before proper development is
that it almost crippled my life as well as my mind. In my life I would not
change a thing about the way it happened, but I can see how it can be both
confusing and dangerous. Very dangerous actually. 



I look forward to
getting to know this list J



Paula


















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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-12 Thread Vaj


On Oct 12, 2005, at 6:22 AM, Irmeli Mattsson wrote:When we  discuss enlightenment the concepts we use tend to be quite confusing, because different individuals mean different things by those concepts. Interesting thing I've noticed is that of those of us who were weaned on the "7 states of consciousness" model, few seem to question it. If it is from "the Veda", where is it located in the Veda? What is it's description? Are they in a sequence (CC - GC - UC)? Based on how I understand `personal self' it doesn't go anywhere with enlightenment. What is gone is one's identification of the `I' with an image of one's personal self. In enlightenment the `I' becomes identified with the transcendental source and hence it becomes very stable in the turmoil of life. Nothing happens directly to the personality with its strengths and weaknesses. On the other hand the enlightened state of the `I' makes it much easier to work with personal issues and defects, because you can stay calm in blissful state in the emotional whirlwind and pain that regularly is part of a real healing. You must also have a personality structure that is capable of self reflection and of internally observing one's emotions and contradicting thought forms in order to be able to do transformative inner work.  People can get enlightened without these inner structures. Then they tend to think they are fully perfect as they are and also superior beings. They desperately need their enlightenment to be seen, and themselves to be seen as superior, because that is their personality structure. The personal self, that cannot work with one's issues needs all the time adulation and a feeling of power to feel good about oneself. Problems are seen in the world. These people can create a lot of unnecessary havoc, but also help some in getting enlightened.  I personally think nowadays that it is probably better that people develop the inner structures mentioned above before the experience of enlightenment.My feeling is get the experience of enlightenment first, gain the View of Unity. Have the Master check your View. Even if you cannot sustain it, at least you will no longer be in doubt, nor are you likely to hold any false intellectual views. Then all you have to do is "continue" and "babysit your rigpa (vidya)" as Willytex is fond of saying.





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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-12 Thread Peter
Hi Paula and welcome to our tough neighborhood! Can
you talk about your experiences directly? You seem to
have experienced a degree of ego loss, one of the
points of enlightenment discussed here quite often. Do
you have an ego now, or is there only no thing when
mind tries to reference an I?

--- Paula Youmans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 Irmeli wrote:
 
 
 People can get enlightened without these inner
 structures. Then they
 tend to think they are fully perfect as they are and
 also superior
 beings. They desperately need their enlightenment to
 be seen, and
 themselves to be seen as superior, because that is
 their personality
 structure. The personal self, that cannot work with
 one's issues needs
 all the time adulation and a feeling of power to
 feel good about
 oneself. Problems are seen in the world. These
 people can create a lot
 of unnecessary havoc, but also help some in getting
 enlightened.
 
 I personally think nowadays that it is probably
 better that people
 develop the inner structures mentioned above before
 the experience of
 enlightenment.
 
 Irmeli
 
 ***
 
  
 
 Hello - I am very new on this list, but wanted to
 respond to this last bit.
 I am one of those people who somehow managed to
 experience things in reverse
 order. Strangely, it had the opposite effect on my
 ego...to the point that I
 felt I wasn't even allowed one. 
 
 The real point I wanted to make about reaching those
 experiences before
 proper development is that it almost crippled my
 life as well as my mind. In
 my life I would not change a thing about the way it
 happened, but I can see
 how it can be both confusing and dangerous. Very
 dangerous actually.. 
 
  
 
 I look forward to getting to know this list :-)
 
  
 
 Paula
 
 
 
   _  
 
 




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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-12 Thread Paula Youmans










Hi Peter and thank you for the welcome! Ha-haI
hope it is a tough neighborhood! Good for learning J



I can talk about the experience directly,
but am never sure what to talk about. To tell you the truth, I
knew very little when it happened and I know even less now.

Im not sure what anyone would like
to hear. How it felt? How it changed me? Why it was difficult? What happened
spiritually and physically? There would be so much to tell!!! 



Ego loss is a tricky subject for me,
because when it is gonethere is no I to lose it. So in
that regard, of course I have an ego lol. When I disappeared
there was no me to experience itquite literally. So did I
lose ego? That is a good question (Rubbing my chin in deep thought).

I will tell you the experience and let you
decide. I was in water at the time what I consider to be me began to
disseminate. The next thing I was aware of was the question who
are you? The question reminded me that I did, in fact, exist.as I
was trying to remember who I was, I felt the words I am
coming from my own mind and everything came rushing back as I was launched out
of the water. (I swear I felt a hand push me out of the water at the same
moment I realized my legs could hold me). I most definitely would have drowned
had it not been for whatever asked me who I was. 



So, is that what people mean when they
reference ego loss? Ill never know.but it is what I mean when I
say it ;)

There was no meso how can I say I
lost it? It just happenedIt simply was. 



When I reference I now.it
is a lot like referencing your hand. It is yours and you can use it and you can
feel itbut it is not you complete. 



I sure hope I make sense lol. Words become
so awkward in these subjects; at least for me they do. 



Someone told me once that enlightenment
is not only being able to bridge into the heavens.but
being able to go AND come back at will. 

I liked that











Subject: RE:
[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment





Hi Paula and welcome to our tough neighborhood! Can
you talk about your experiences directly? You seem
to
have experienced a degree of ego loss, one of the
points of enlightenment discussed here quite
often. Do
you have an ego now, or is there only no thing
when
mind tries to reference an I?

--- Paula Youmans [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:


















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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-12 Thread Peter
Seems like you got slapped hard when that I went.
I lost it leaving the dome one afternoon.
Consciousness withdrew back into itself and there was
no I or individuality. The mind freaked-out, but
everything kept on working all by itself.
Consciousness apperceived itself as a point. No
dimensions or time at all in that point...no inside
or outside either! Completely outside mind.

--- Paula Youmans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hi Peter and thank you for the welcome! Ha-ha.I hope
 it is a tough
 neighborhood! Good for learning :-)
 
  
 
 I can talk about the experience directly, but am
 never sure what to talk
 about. To tell you the truth, I knew very little
 when it happened and I know
 even less now.
 
 I'm not sure what anyone would like to hear. How it
 felt? How it changed me?
 Why it was difficult? What happened spiritually and
 physically? There would
 be so much to tell!!! 
 
  
 
 Ego loss is a tricky subject for me, because when it
 is gone.there is no I
 to lose it. So in that regard, of course I have an
 ego lol. When I
 disappeared there was no me to experience it.quite
 literally. So did I
 lose ego? That is a good question. (Rubbing my chin
 in deep thought).
 
 I will tell you the experience and let you decide. I
 was in water at the
 time what I consider to be me began to disseminate.
 The next thing I was
 aware of was the question who are you? The
 question reminded me that I
 did, in fact, exist..as I was trying to remember who
 I was, I felt the words
 I am. coming from my own mind and everything came
 rushing back as I was
 launched out of the water. (I swear I felt a hand
 push me out of the water
 at the same moment I realized my legs could hold
 me). I most definitely
 would have drowned had it not been for whatever
 asked me who I was. 
 
  
 
 So, is that what people mean when they reference ego
 loss? I'll never
 know..but it is what I mean when I say it ;)
 
 There was no me.so how can I say I lost it? It just
 happened.It simply was.
 
 
  
 
 When I reference I now..it is a lot like
 referencing your hand. It is
 yours and you can use it and you can feel it.but it
 is not you complete. 
 
  
 
 I sure hope I make sense lol. Words become so
 awkward in these subjects; at
 least for me they do. 
 
  
 
 Someone told me once that enlightenment is not
 only being able to bridge
 into the heavens..but being able to go AND come
 back at will. 
 
 I liked that.
 
  
 
   _  
 
 Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones
 enlightenment
 
  
 
 Hi Paula and welcome to our tough neighborhood! Can
 you talk about your experiences directly? You seem
 to
 have experienced a degree of ego loss, one of the
 points of enlightenment discussed here quite often.
 Do
 you have an ego now, or is there only no thing
 when
 mind tries to reference an I?
 
 --- Paula Youmans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
 
   _  
 
 





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-12 Thread Rick Archer
Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment





on 10/12/05 8:06 AM, Paula Youmans at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hello  I am very new on this list, but wanted to respond to this last bit. I am one of those people who somehow managed to experience things in reverse order. Strangely, it had the opposite effect on my ego...to the point that I felt I wasnt even allowed one. 
The real point I wanted to make about reaching those experiences before proper development is that it almost crippled my life as well as my mind. In my life I would not change a thing about the way it happened, but I can see how it can be both confusing and dangerous. Very dangerous actually. 

I look forward to getting to know this list J
 
Paula

Paula, have you read Collision with the Infinite - http://tinyurl.com/exuwz
I think you would enjoy it.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-12 Thread Vaj


On Oct 12, 2005, at 2:10 PM, akasha_108 wrote: Better yet would be a two dimensional scale, like an xy graph. It helps dispose of the linearity and alleged necessary sequence of "happenings".   For example, various peoples experience could be plotted on two characteristics of the "the experience" -- as a scatter plot. In terms of xy values, there may be individual experiences at points (1,2) (1,3) (4,4) (2,1) (2,2) (3,2) etc. While easier to simply plot visually, or draw on a blackboard, bear with me.  It provides a non-ranking way of viewing various types of awakening experience.  Experience (1,2) is different from (2,1) but clearly not "better". Though (4,4) is acknowledged as richer than (3,3). Have you seen Bentov's time/space/consciousness scale? That's the best experiential model I've seen conveyed. Very nice.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-12 Thread Vaj


On Oct 12, 2005, at 2:10 PM, akasha_108 wrote:Enlightenment, connates, to me at least, an endpoint.Hmmm. Never got that., although unimpeded omniscience might seem that way.clip  The proposed model views the mapping of points in the multi-dimensional space as milestones or simple current mappings of ongoing trajectories -- with no necessary endpoint (or one so far "out there" is is silly to contemplate). Thus, in this models' view, saying there are 100 million different flavors of the rest stops of the many people on the "path" is correct and good. But saying there are 100 million flavors of "enlightenment" or endpoints -- that is "mu" -- none-sensical, in this open-ended framework -- where trajectories of growth can continue indefinately -- at least to rainbow body etc.  But even Rainbow body is a beginning since they have the ability to divide into tens of thousands of different manifestations, all capable of incarnating or affecting other dimensions--and not necessarily within linear time.One person I spoke to on retreat a number of years ago claimed that M. did a lecture on the "absolute body" based on the cognitions of Brighu rishi where he described these various bodies. I wish someone would present a transcript--which used to circulate. 





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-12 Thread Peter


--- Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 on 10/12/05 8:06 AM, Paula Youmans at
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Hello ­ I am very new on this list, but wanted to
 respond to this last bit. I
  am one of those people who somehow managed to
 experience things in reverse
  order. Strangely, it had the opposite effect on my
 ego...to the point that I
  felt I wasn¹t even ³allowed² one.
  The real point I wanted to make about reaching
 those experiences before proper
  development is that it almost crippled my life as
 well as my mind. In my life
  I would not change a thing about the way it
 happened, but I can see how it can
  be both confusing and dangerous. Very dangerous
 actuallyŠ.
   
  I look forward to getting to know this list J
   
  Paula
  
 
 Paula, have you read ³Collision with the Infinite² -
 http://tinyurl.com/exuwz
 I think you would enjoy it.

Ditto on that. The story of a woman awakening to the
horror of the fullness of emptiness.



 





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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-12 Thread Paula Youmans










Thank you for the suggested reading!  I have
not read this yet but I will J



I too was raised Christian (Catholic
actually) .

You would not believe how incredibly fast
I had to dump out my belief system just to get by



I look forward to reading this stuff!



Oh, btwpeople mentioned having a
master look at you and tell you where you have been or what it
was you reached?

Is that really possible? Where in the heck
do you find such people???

Not sure why that intrigues mebut
it does.













  Paula, have you read ³Collision with the Infinite² -
  http://tinyurl.com/exuwz
  I think you would enjoy it.
 
 Ditto on that. The story of a woman awakening
to the
 horror of the fullness of
emptiness.

Or the books of Bernadette Roberts; I think the
first
is The Experience of No-Self.
She's a Christian
contemplative who unexpectedly slipped into the
experience and had quite a struggle dealing with
it,
went through several stages, ending up in what
sounds
a lot like MMY's descriptions of Unity
consciousness.












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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-12 Thread Paula Youmans










Ive been slapped sillya few
times lol. The ego loss was just the tip of the iceberg.

Getting rather used to it by nowand
each journey has gotten easier.

I feel like through meditation that I have
gained some control, but I have
far to go. 



I dont mind one bitId
rather be on the ride then standing in the sidelines watching others have all
the fun ;)

Hell, when its over I just might go
again if I can find another ticket lol!



Yes, completely outside mind good way
to put it! I also like how in another post you mentioned the fullness of emptiness
J

















Seems like you got slapped hard when that I
went.
I lost it leaving the dome one afternoon.
Consciousness withdrew back into itself and there
was
no I or individuality. The mind
freaked-out, but
everything kept on working all by itself.
Consciousness apperceived itself as a
point. No
dimensions or time at all in that
point...no inside
or outside either! Completely outside mind.



















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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-12 Thread Vaj

On Oct 12, 2005, at 4:02 PM, akasha_108 wrote:

 Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



 On Oct 12, 2005, at 2:10 PM, akasha_108 wrote:


 Enlightenment, connates, to me at least, an endpoint.


 Hmmm. Never got that., although unimpeded omniscience might seem

 that way.


 Well it you may have a broader view than many. Why label some initial
 state with a high falutin term like enlightenment. It never made
 sense to me.

Nor me. My lingering question having been a youngster when I started  
TM--as I strongly suspected we weren't being given the full picture-- 
was what did others have to say? Seven states of Consciousness? The  
Self resting in the Self? Eventually you get the answers. Look deep  
enough and you get the experiences too, not stuck on some initial  
experiences of clarity or bliss or the elements relaxing or calm or  
movement or presence.

 Maybe call it first light or groggy, but eyes are
 open or ascended above sea level or less localized (instead of
 cosmic) or release from prison to a half-way house with ankle
 braclet instead of liberation.

Yeah I remember after learning Sanskrit trying to find out what all  
the *real* words were for all the TM buzzwords and experiences.  
Cosmic Consciousness wasn't that cosmic at all, how disappointing  
and how enlightening. All it really means is Beyond the Fourth.

It was interesting after TM daze to hang out with yogis who had  
profound experiential knowledge and seeing all these students who  
thought they were enlightened. A real learning experience.



 But even Rainbow body is a beginning since they have the ability to
 divide into tens of thousands of different manifestations, all
 capable of incarnating or affecting other dimensions--and not
 necessarily within linear time.


 Yes. My point about the Rainbow Body was not that it is an endpoint,
 but that it is so far beyond the no I or other such experiences --
 that its silly to think one has reached the pinnacle of human
 development when they have that experience.  First light, groggy,
 but eyes are open or less localized does not a Rainbow Body
 immediately make(eth).



 One person I spoke to on retreat a number of years ago claimed that
 M. did a lecture on the absolute body based on the cognitions of
 Brighu rishi where he described these various bodies. I wish someone
 would present a transcript--which used to circulate.



 I heard the Brighu lectures. At least some. If I am recalling
 correctly, this was part of the discussions of immortality. A main
 point was that a state could be reached where the body just keeps
 renewing itself, and keeps changing.

 Which appears at least plausible given the knoweldge modern genetics
 -- where there appear to be genes that at a certain age, turn off the
 body's cells ability to continually rejuvinate -- and thus one gets
 older and finally, as renewel gets too sluggish, dies. If the normal
 continuously renewing ability of cells could be maintained, the body
 could last much longer if not forever. I posted an article on rats
 where this has been done -- to a degree.

Yeah we had talked at little bit about aglets and the new research on  
that. Ultimately IMO, something has to give. You may extend life to  
several hundred years but it now appears the downside to this is you  
will simply digest time more slowly. You will move very slowly under  
that type of life extension. The Naths had better ideas which even  
Marco Polo got to see.


 The key was changing , changing changing. And M. emphasized if we
 don't mind this changing , changing changing forever happening
 happening. To me it implied some pretty different and unexpected
 forms could be changed into.

 M. mentioned Vyasa, for whom there is no record of his dropping his
 body. He played aronnd the edges of terming Vyasa an immortal. And
 being still here on earth. Himalayas I think was alluded to.

My Patanjali guru said there were at least six Vyasas. Different  
people. Under Vaishnava influence, many works were attributed to  
Vyasa which never were his--most notably Badarayana.


 Soma was part of the story I think.

Oh ok. This sounds like it is part of the triple hut retreat thing  
(which was talked of but never materialized).


 Someone on an India course asked, perhaps after a similar lecture, why
 saints like Vyasa didn't visit? M. said something about such persons
 would not visit a groups so unclean. Not a dis on the group, but more
 an indication of the purity of the immortals.

 I assume Baba-ji, of Yoganada stories, is an immortal like Vyasa. As
 many possible residents of deep areas of himalayas and other places.

IIRC Babaji is Goraknath or an emanation thereof. The Naths were  
into the whole immortality trip.

 And ties to christ's resurrection of the body theme. Some in India /
 Tibet say Jesus came there after the cross.

I heard it was in the missing early, pre-saviour years, before the  
first book tour :-). Seriously, that place is in Kashmir.

 Perhaps he 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-12 Thread Vaj

On Oct 12, 2005, at 8:45 PM, akasha_108 wrote:

 Or thinking where does space end? Or what was
 there before the universe wa[s] created.


Yes. I had the precise same thought processes. Frustrating as a 7  
year old with no one who could answer and adults increasingly  
projecting weirdness.

Were you able to meditate on this?

I would bet you also wondered what was there before you were  
born, no?



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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-12 Thread Paula Youmans










Hi again Akasha lol



This reminded me that I used to get really obsessed
with the idea that there couldnt be a beginning because something would
have to be in order to begin anyway.

It drove me nuts. Still does. 

CrapI shouldnt have even
brought it up. Ugh. 





 Or thinking where does space end? Or what was
 there before the universe wa[s] created.




















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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-12 Thread Paula Youmans











Or maybe it was me in the past,
transmitting to my future self, in
California, 1960. Ha ha, now thats funny. Then it was both
Me and me.
*



I wouldnt
be surprised in the least J












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