Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are waiting to be published
On 11/22/2014 3:14 PM, Tormod Kinnes wrote: You get a horde of mantras with variants, that is true, but not the Advaitic Smartist system that TM traces its first mantras to, SBS was initiated into the Shankaracharya tradition by his guru, Swami Brahmananda Saraswati of the Upper Kashi. It is incumbent on all Saraswati Swamis to meditate at least twice every day. Everyone already knows this. Brahmananda Saraswati practiced samaya marga of Sri Vidya, according to his biographer. Sri Vidya is a path of internal puja to the deity of the Sri Yantra. There are fifteen bija mantras enumerated in the Saundalahari composed by the Adi Shankara. All the Shankaracharya Advaita sannyasin worship Shakti, this is a fact. According to Shankara's Soundaryalahari, all saanyasins meditate on the bija mantra of Saraswati. That's why SBS gave out the Saraswati bija mantra - for people to meditate on. According to Swami Rama, SBS used to meditate just like TMers do today - a meditation that is transcendental. According to Duffy: /This too, is my understanding of Guru Dev's practice as well. ...via mantras and nyasas. I would add that the bija mantras used are the same as the mantras used in TM.../ Works cited: /*The swami is said to have been one of those rare siddhas (accomplished ones) who had the knowledge of Sri Vidya/ Rama, Swami (1999) Himalayan Institute, *Living With the Himalayan Masters*, page 247 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmananda_Saraswati Subject: Re: Guru Dev and Sri Vidya From: James Duffy Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental Date: 2003-04-21 12:17:54 PST Read more: http://www.rwilliams.us/archives/srividya.htm Swami Brahmananda Sarasvati: Srividya siddha; highly respected Shankaracharya of Jyotirmya pitha, Shankara Matha, Badrinath: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shankaracharya /His disciples included Swami Shantanand Saraswati, Transcendental Meditation founder Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Swami Swaruananda Saraswati and Swami Karpatri. Five months before his death in 1953, he made a will naming his disciple, Swami Shantanand Saraswati as his successor./ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmananda_Saraswati
Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are waiting to be published
On 11/22/2014 3:48 PM, Bhairitu wrote: I don't think anyone knows for sure where the beej mantras came from. Those are lost in antiquity and undoubtedly commonly in use even at the time of Shankara. So let's review what we know about the TM bija mantras: The Sankrit word man in Sanskrit means to think and tra, means a tool; bija in Sanskrit means a seed. Bija mantras are seed sounds used as a tools for meditation. So, in TMer practice you just become aware of the seed syllable, experienced just like any other thought; then you add a little fertilizer; you just water the root and enjoy the fruit. It's not complicated. Are we agreed so far? Now we can review the purpose of bija mantra: There are several uses of bija mantras: for purification, acquisition, propitiation, or in some cases, for protection. But, according to Brooks, the most noble use of bija mantras is for spontaneous meditation. Seed-syllables (bijasaras), are the purest form of mantric sound - they do not make a request or praise a God - they are natures purest expression of Being. Now we can consider the history of bija mantra usage: There are no bija mantras mentioned in the Rik Veda - bija mantras came much later during the alchemical phase of the Nath Siddhas, after the rise of Tantric Buddhism in the Indian Gupta period. To sum up: Meditation on a bija mantra seed syllables rather than words, transcends such mundane considerations as semantic meaning. Accordingly, a bija-only mantra meditation is not merely esoteric, but inherently superior. However, bija mantras are not meaningless sounds; everything in the cosmos has meaning. But, bija mantras are non-semantic sounds - they are not words found in any standard Sanskrit lexicon. Bija mantras, by definition, are esoteric. Works cited: *Auspicious Wisdon* The Texts and Traditions of Srividya Sakta Tantrism in South India by Douglas Renfrew Brooks SUNY, 1992 p.95 On the origin of the TM bija mantras: /Bija mantras issued by TM are ''Sri Vidya'' bija mantras. To be fair, I won't go into what they are, but if one listens to all TM mantras, except for 2, they are 2 or 3 syllable, and this is a very important component of the // //technique... / From: Billy Smith Subject: Re: Guru Dev and Sri Vidya Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental Date: April 22, 2003 http://tinyurl.com/ye8my2 / //You are getting warmer when it comes to understanding TM's origins with your posts regarding the Shankaracharya tradition and its practice of Srividya... / From: James Duffy Subject: Re: TM: Siva Sutra Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental, alt.yoga, alt.meditation Date: September 21, 2003 http://tinyurl.com/yjwa2yr
Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are waiting to be published
On 11/22/2014 4:51 PM, Tormod Kinnes wrote: There are some sources outside TM, sources that reveal the settings and transmission to Maharishi when he was trained by Guru Dev, benefited by his company, and was asked to bring swift and deep meditation to the masses. /Hariharananda Saraswati, (Karpatri Swami), the disciple of SBS, was also the great expert of Shree Vidya and probably all the present day experts in Varanasi have somehow or the other obtained Shree vidya from him or his pupils./ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Karpatri Shree Vidya: /The details of the beliefs vary in different texts, but the general principles are similar to those found in Kashmir Shaivism...The name srividya is also used to refer to a specific mantra used in this tradition having fifteen syllables./ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shri_Vidya
Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are waiting to be published
On 11/22/2014 7:13 PM, Bhairitu wrote: Do you know what shaktipat is? The term Shaktipat in Sanskrit means /the transference of psychic energy to another person/ either by means of an initiation, a sacred word or phrase, a mantra, a touch or even a thought or a mere glance. Swami Muktananda was a great teacher of the shakti tradition who used shaktipat on many occasions to initiate his students. The question is, how or why did the Shankara Saraswati tradition adopt the shakti siddha doctrine? According to this tradition, Shankara journeyed to Kamarup - the present Guwahati-in Assam and held a controversy with Abhinava Gupta, the Shakta commentator. Kamarupa is the site of an ancient tantric cult of the Shakti Kamakhya which is located in Assam. It is one of the main Shakti-pithas in the tanric Shakti cult. Shankara supposedly won an important debate with Abhinava. Shankara then went to the Himalayas and built a Mutt at Joshi and a Mandir at Badri and then he then proceeded to Kedarnath higher up in the Himalayas where he became one with the Shakti Devi in 820 A.D. in his thirty-second year. The Sharda Temple, which by tradition was visited by Shankara in his travels, is located in Kishanganga Valley just across the Line of Control in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir. The meaning of this tradition story is that Shankara reached the peak of spirituality when he converted to Shaki worship. As it is not possible to visit this shakti peetha, one can visit the famous Saraswathi temple in Basara in Nizamabad district of Andhra Pradesh. Basara is 200 km from Hyderabad. You can read more about the Shakti Pithas here: http://www.srinithyakalyani.org/index.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamakhya Suggested Reading: *Play of Consciousness: A Spiritual Autobiography* by Swami Muktananda, Gurumayi Chidvilasananda and Paul Muller-Ortega SYDA Foundation, 1994 *Secret of the Siddhas* by Swami Muktananda SYDA Foundation, 1994 *The Doctrine of Vibration* An Analysis of the Doctrines and Practices of Kashmir Shaivism by Mark S. G. Dyczkowski State University of New York Press, 1987 *Meditation Revolution* A History and Theology of the Siddha Yoga Lineage by S.P. Sabharathnam and Douglas Brooks Agama Press, 1997
Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are waiting to be published
On 11/22/2014 10:20 PM, Michael Jackson wrote: You have no idea what I or anyone else knows about India and your trip or trips there make you no expert. In fact, we don't even know who you are. Go figure. Your time in TM seems to have given you a certain amount of TM similar hubris on your expertise - Apparently /Bhairitu/ was a teacher of TM and studied with a famous tantric for a decade in order to become a tantric acharya. He has been to India and can speak and read Hindi and Sanskrit. He and /emptybill/ are probably the foremost experts on tantric mantra shastra on FFL - they make you look like a piker. perhaps you can give us some John Hagelin style videos of your I'm certain I'm right cuz I been to new Delhi? Non sequitur. Piker: /Someone who bakes bread on a small scale and in an amatuerish fashion. /
Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are waiting to be published
Certainly we all pale when compared to your expertise on India, Michael. BTW, when was I in Delhi and what did I see there? On 11/22/2014 08:20 PM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: You have no idea what I or anyone else knows about India and your trip or trips there make you no expert.Your time in TM seems to have given you a certain amount of TM similar hubris on your expertise - perhaps you can give us some John Hagelin style videos of your I'm certain I'm right cuz I been to new Delhi? *From:* Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Saturday, November 22, 2014 9:36 PM *Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are waiting to be published Visiting India will give you an understanding of their culture which you cannot otherwise get. And you MJ, make huge mistakes misunderstanding Indian culture. What would you think if someone told you how some bakery good you make tastes if they never eaten it? On 11/22/2014 06:20 PM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com mailto:mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: Refreshing - we see that not everyone is impressed with I went to India and so I'm an expert. *From:* Tormod Kinnes tkin...@gmail.com mailto:tkin...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Saturday, November 22, 2014 5:51 PM *Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are waiting to be published Dear Bhairatu You write of your background for saying TM is nothing but . . .. Good. But I cannot help noting that you still don't give real examples to document your stand. For example, you write: I also like to refer to Sivananda's Mind Its Mysteries and Control . . . to point out the method of meditation TM uses with the mantras is nothing new either as that work was first published in 1936. I took the trouble to search through Sivananda's book, but if it contains anything specific about the TM system, I missed it. The Smartist mantras and the main criteria for selecting from among them are not specified there, not as far as I could see after a quick search. Nor are Guru Dev's warning that OM (which is often found in Sivananda's writings) is not a proper mantra for householders. You write mantras were published in the west before Maharishi. Yes, but a mass of syllables is not the TM system either. Many sounds and words of the language - Long, Fine, and so on - may in fact be used as mantras. Then you suggest something about seed sounds: TM uses beej mantras because they don't need any empowerment. You also say that the TM initiation ceremony helps, and that other ways may help too. The puja helps but Indian astrologers and ayurvedic practitioners hand them out to clients without any elaborate initiation. In Guru Dev's discourses one finds a similar view in choosing the mantras. One gets a suitable mantra either by the guru or in some other way. Paul Mason has gathered, translated and published several books with ideas of Guru Dev. where the beej mantras came from . . lost in antiquity and undoubtedly commonly in use even at the time of Shankara. This seems to be speculation. TM is really just yoga lite. - I should say your proofs are lite too. Good, specific documentation is the thing called for. ROUNDING OFF There are some sources outside TM, sources that reveal the settings and transmission to Maharishi when he was trained by Guru Dev, benefited by his company, and was asked to bring swift and deep meditation to the masses. Elsa Dragemark presents Dr. Raj Varma: Doctor Varma came to Guru Dev six months before Maharishi and knows more about Guru Dev and Maharishi than any other person I have met. [p. 240] Dr. Raj Varma tells (in Elsa Dragemark. The Way to Maharishi's Himalayas. Stockholm: E. Dragemark, 1972): Maharishi loyally followed in his master's footsteps. . . . Maharishi stayed with Guru Dev until the day his master left his body. It was in Calcutta, the 20th of May, 1953. Guru Dev then called Maharishi and asked him to sit down. Guru Dev said: — My time is up. It is time to leave, but still one thing remains. There was something else I should have done, but I did not have the time to carry it out. It is the usual custom that the work remaining for a guru is completed by his disciples. It is a tradition that the father's task is completed by his son and what now remains you shall complete by yourself
Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are waiting to be published
Of course the don't see it T Kinnes - the Movement became all about Marshy's
supremacy and therefore TM being supreme since Marshy was the original TM
teacher.
Not to mention the fact that no one in the Movement claimed that Guru Dev ever
had the awareness to cognize the full value of natural law in ALL the veda
like the claim Marshy did.
Ergo, the Movement considers Marshy superior to Guru Dev, even tho they would
never admit it. Plus the Movement really doesn't give a damn about guru Dev -
they only care about things that make money for themselves.
From: Tormod Kinnes tkin...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2014 9:17 AM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are
waiting to be published
Hi
I have been informed in another group that there are about a thousand
discourses by Guru Dev in Hindi. Some have been published in English, but most
have not.
It has been stated by author Paul Mason that Maharishi owed most of his core
ideas to Guru Dev. Maharishi also published a series of Guru Dev renderings.
It would be very good if TM-ers made it clear to TM leaders that here lies an
opportunity to promote a lot more from Guru Dev, who is the originator of TM,
the one honoured during the TM initiation, and the one that Maharishi said this
of: He made me.
Guidance fit for folks - doesn't the TM movement see it?
Compare:https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Shankaracharya_Swami_Brahmanand_Ji/info
Regards,--
T. Kinnes!--#yiv7143915891 #yiv7143915891ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are waiting to be published
On 11/22/2014 06:17 AM, Tormod Kinnes tkin...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: Hi I have been informed in another group that there are about a thousand discourses by Guru Dev in Hindi. Some have been published in English, but most have not. It has been stated by author Paul Mason that Maharishi owed most of his core ideas to Guru Dev. Maharishi also published a series of Guru Dev renderings. It would be very good if TM-ers made it clear to TM leaders that here lies an opportunity to promote a lot more from Guru Dev, who is the originator of TM, the one honoured during the TM initiation, and the one that Maharishi said this of: He made me. SBS did not originate TM, it's just an implementation of tantric meditation which has been around for centuries. It was only new to westerners or at least those who had not read Arthur Avalon.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are waiting to be published
SBS did not originate TM, it's just an implementation of tantric meditation which has been around for centuries. It was only new to westerners or at least those who had not read Arthur Avalon. Thanks for commenting. Now, if you can prove the claims you make, for example by showing the passage(s) of John Woodroffe (alias Arthur Avalon), it would taste better. I have read books by Woodroffe (Avalon), and cannot recall the specifics of the TM method are divulged there at all. You get a horde of mantras with variants, that is true, but not the Advaitic Smartist system that TM traces its first mantras to, I would like to suggest. Friendly -- T. Kinnes
Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are waiting to be published
I've done my homework in this field and *was* a TM teacher but also studied with an authentic Indian tantric starting in early 2000. Plus I've been to India and have also discussed this issue with others who are expert in these matters. I gave examples of Arthur Avalon (Woodroffe) to show that the mantras were published in the west before Maharishi was even born. BTW, I also have read the published doctoral thesis about Woodroffe's life and the writer opines that much of his writings was not his work but of his Indian friend and tantric who was not allowed to publish under British rule. I also like to refer to Sivananda's Mind Its Mysteries and Control which you can find online to point out the method of meditation TM uses with the mantras is nothing new either as that work was first published in 1936. Thing is that TM uses beej mantras because they don't need any empowerment. The puja helps but Indian astrologers and ayurvedic practitioners hand them out to clients without any elaborate initiation. I don't think anyone knows for sure where the beej mantras came from. Those are lost in antiquity and undoubtedly commonly in use even at the time of Shankara. TM followers like to glorify it but TM is really just yoga lite. Hope that helps. On 11/22/2014 01:14 PM, Tormod Kinnes tkin...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: SBS did not originate TM, it's just an implementation of tantric meditation which has been around for centuries. It was only new to westerners or at least those who had not read Arthur Avalon. Thanks for commenting. Now, if you can prove the claims you make, for example by showing the passage(s) of John Woodroffe (alias Arthur Avalon), it would taste better. I have read books by Woodroffe (Avalon), and cannot recall the specifics of the TM method are divulged there at all. You get a horde of mantras with variants, that is true, but not the Advaitic Smartist system that TM traces its first mantras to, I would like to suggest. Friendly -- T. Kinnes
Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are waiting to be published
Although all this was around before - something Maharishi openly admitted - his genius was that he took the knowledge, systematized it, and made it globally available, with TM. This happens all the time with knowledge - I was reading about Man Ray's (Emmanuel Radnitzky) work in photography, and many of the techniques he used had been discovered previously, but no one before had popularized them, and made them accessible. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : I've done my homework in this field and was a TM teacher but also studied with an authentic Indian tantric starting in early 2000. Plus I've been to India and have also discussed this issue with others who are expert in these matters. I gave examples of Arthur Avalon (Woodroffe) to show that the mantras were published in the west before Maharishi was even born. BTW, I also have read the published doctoral thesis about Woodroffe's life and the writer opines that much of his writings was not his work but of his Indian friend and tantric who was not allowed to publish under British rule. I also like to refer to Sivananda's Mind Its Mysteries and Control which you can find online to point out the method of meditation TM uses with the mantras is nothing new either as that work was first published in 1936. Thing is that TM uses beej mantras because they don't need any empowerment. The puja helps but Indian astrologers and ayurvedic practitioners hand them out to clients without any elaborate initiation. I don't think anyone knows for sure where the beej mantras came from. Those are lost in antiquity and undoubtedly commonly in use even at the time of Shankara. TM followers like to glorify it but TM is really just yoga lite. Hope that helps. On 11/22/2014 01:14 PM, Tormod Kinnes tkinnes@... mailto:tkinnes@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: SBS did not originate TM, it's just an implementation of tantric meditation which has been around for centuries. It was only new to westerners or at least those who had not read Arthur Avalon. Thanks for commenting. Now, if you can prove the claims you make, for example by showing the passage(s) of John Woodroffe (alias Arthur Avalon), it would taste better. I have read books by Woodroffe (Avalon), and cannot recall the specifics of the TM method are divulged there at all. You get a horde of mantras with variants, that is true, but not the Advaitic Smartist system that TM traces its first mantras to, I would like to suggest. Friendly -- T. Kinnes
Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are waiting to be published
Dear Bhairatu
You write of your background for saying TM is nothing but . . .. Good.
But I cannot help noting that you still don't give real examples to
document your stand.
For example, you write:
I also like to refer to Sivananda's Mind Its Mysteries and Control . .
. to point out the method of meditation TM uses with the mantras is nothing
new either as that work was first published in 1936.
I took the trouble to search through Sivananda's book, but if it contains
anything specific about the TM system, I missed it.
The Smartist mantras and the main criteria for selecting from among them
are not specified there, not as far as I could see after a quick search.
Nor are Guru Dev's warning that OM (which is often found in Sivananda's
writings) is not a proper mantra for householders.
You write
mantras were published in the west before Maharishi.
Yes, but a mass of syllables is not the TM system either. Many sounds and
words of the language - Long, Fine, and so on - may in fact be used as
mantras.
Then you suggest something about seed sounds:
TM uses beej mantras because they don't need any empowerment.
You also say that the TM initiation ceremony helps, and that other ways may
help too.
The puja helps but Indian astrologers and ayurvedic practitioners hand
them out to clients without any elaborate initiation.
In Guru Dev's discourses one finds a similar view in choosing the mantras.
One gets a suitable mantra either by the guru or in some other way. Paul
Mason has gathered, translated and published several books with ideas of
Guru Dev.
where the beej mantras came from . . lost in antiquity and undoubtedly
commonly in use even at the time of Shankara.
This seems to be speculation.
TM is really just yoga lite. -
I should say your proofs are lite too. Good, specific documentation is the
thing called for.
ROUNDING OFF
There are some sources outside TM, sources that reveal the settings and
transmission to Maharishi when he was trained by Guru Dev, benefited by his
company, and was asked to bring swift and deep meditation to the masses.
Elsa Dragemark presents Dr. Raj Varma:
Doctor Varma came to Guru Dev six months before Maharishi and knows more
about Guru Dev and Maharishi than any other person I have met. [p. 240]
Dr. Raj Varma tells (in Elsa Dragemark. The Way to Maharishi's Himalayas.
Stockholm: E. Dragemark, 1972):
Maharishi loyally followed in his master's footsteps. . . .
Maharishi stayed with Guru Dev until the day his master left his body. It
was in Calcutta, the 20th of May, 1953.
Guru Dev then called Maharishi and asked him to sit down. Guru Dev said:
— My time is up. It is time to leave, but still one thing remains. There
was something else I should have done, but I did not have the time to carry
it out. It is the usual custom that the work remaining for a guru is
completed by his disciples. It is a tradition that the father's task is
completed by his son and what now remains you shall complete by yourself.
— Master, Maharishi said, by your lotus feet, what remains? Your wish is
my command. What do you wish, tell me, so that I can fulfil it. Guru Dev
said:
— Look around. Many people are dejected. There is a lack of energy in
their minds. Their minds are not strong enough. What I {p. 261] have taught
you also contains the knowledge of the technique for the householder, which
has been misinterpreted and forgotten during the centuries. This should now
be perfected into a simple method suitable for everyone. Ask the people to
sit and meditate after this method a few moments every morning and evening.
Teach them to enjoy life. . . .
Accordingly, basic TM is meant to be a well simplified and streamlined
mantra meditation for others than monks. It is mantra meditation, yes, but
there is a system beneath also (it seems to be Smartism), and Guru Dev's
teaching that OM is to be avoided among householders, but not necessarily
by monks and nuns.
Thus, there are mantras you won't find in TM. I should say it is
specialised mantra lore, with some elements in common with other mantra
teachings, as you suggest, but with a few decisive characteristics of its
own too.
If other mantra methods eventually come up with research documentation that
is as good as the better TM documentation,
I won't say TM stands out a lot.
Till then . . .
Regards,
--
T. Kinnes
Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are waiting to be published
Thank you for sharing that - I always enjoy hearing about SBS, from someone who
has done the research.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tkinnes@... wrote :
Dear Bhairatu
You write of your background for saying TM is nothing but . . .. Good. But I
cannot help noting that you still don't give real examples to document your
stand.
For example, you write:
I also like to refer to Sivananda's Mind Its Mysteries and Control . . .
to point out the method of meditation TM uses with the mantras is nothing new
either as that work was first published in 1936.
I took the trouble to search through Sivananda's book, but if it contains
anything specific about the TM system, I missed it.
The Smartist mantras and the main criteria for selecting from among them are
not specified there, not as far as I could see after a quick search. Nor are
Guru Dev's warning that OM (which is often found in Sivananda's writings) is
not a proper mantra for householders.
You write
mantras were published in the west before Maharishi.
Yes, but a mass of syllables is not the TM system either. Many sounds and
words of the language - Long, Fine, and so on - may in fact be used as mantras.
Then you suggest something about seed sounds:
TM uses beej mantras because they don't need any empowerment.
You also say that the TM initiation ceremony helps, and that other ways may
help too.
The puja helps but Indian astrologers and ayurvedic practitioners hand them
out to clients without any elaborate initiation.
In Guru Dev's discourses one finds a similar view in choosing the mantras. One
gets a suitable mantra either by the guru or in some other way. Paul Mason has
gathered, translated and published several books with ideas of Guru Dev.
where the beej mantras came from . . lost in antiquity and undoubtedly
commonly in use even at the time of Shankara.
This seems to be speculation.
TM is really just yoga lite. -
I should say your proofs are lite too. Good, specific documentation is the
thing called for.
ROUNDING OFF
There are some sources outside TM, sources that reveal the settings and
transmission to Maharishi when he was trained by Guru Dev, benefited by his
company, and was asked to bring swift and deep meditation to the masses.
Elsa Dragemark presents Dr. Raj Varma:
Doctor Varma came to Guru Dev six months before Maharishi and knows more
about Guru Dev and Maharishi than any other person I have met. [p. 240]
Dr. Raj Varma tells (in Elsa Dragemark. The Way to Maharishi's Himalayas.
Stockholm: E. Dragemark, 1972):
Maharishi loyally followed in his master's footsteps. . . .
Maharishi stayed with Guru Dev until the day his master left his body. It was
in Calcutta, the 20th of May, 1953.
Guru Dev then called Maharishi and asked him to sit down. Guru Dev said:
— My time is up. It is time to leave, but still one thing remains. There was
something else I should have done, but I did not have the time to carry it out.
It is the usual custom that the work remaining for a guru is completed by his
disciples. It is a tradition that the father's task is completed by his son and
what now remains you shall complete by yourself.
— Master, Maharishi said, by your lotus feet, what remains? Your wish is my
command. What do you wish, tell me, so that I can fulfil it. Guru Dev said:
— Look around. Many people are dejected. There is a lack of energy in their
minds. Their minds are not strong enough. What I {p. 261] have taught you also
contains the knowledge of the technique for the householder, which has been
misinterpreted and forgotten during the centuries. This should now be perfected
into a simple method suitable for everyone. Ask the people to sit and meditate
after this method a few moments every morning and evening. Teach them to enjoy
life. . . .
Accordingly, basic TM is meant to be a well simplified and streamlined mantra
meditation for others than monks. It is mantra meditation, yes, but there is a
system beneath also (it seems to be Smartism), and Guru Dev's teaching that OM
is to be avoided among householders, but not necessarily by monks and nuns.
Thus, there are mantras you won't find in TM. I should say it is specialised
mantra lore, with some elements in common with other mantra teachings, as you
suggest, but with a few decisive characteristics of its own too.
If other mantra methods eventually come up with research documentation that is
as good as the better TM documentation,
I won't say TM stands out a lot.
Till then . . .
Regards,
--
T. Kinnes
Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are waiting to be published
On 11/22/2014 02:51 PM, Tormod Kinnes tkin...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
wrote:
Dear Bhairatu
You write of your background for saying TM is nothing but . . ..
Good. But I cannot help noting that you still don't give real examples
to document your stand.
Why would I want to take the the time with you? I'm just suggesting
some things to look into so you can start a journey of true knowledge.
For example, you write:
I also like to refer to Sivananda's Mind Its Mysteries and
Control . . . to point out the method of meditation TM uses with
the mantras is nothing new either as that work was first published
in 1936.
I took the trouble to search through Sivananda's book, but if it
contains anything specific about the TM system, I missed it.
The Smartist mantras and the main criteria for selecting from among
them are not specified there, not as far as I could see after a quick
search. Nor are Guru Dev's warning that OM (which is often found in
Sivananda's writings) is not a proper mantra for householders.
Read the section on meditation. You are going to need more than
superficial abilities to understand mantra shastra.
You write
mantras were published in the west before Maharishi.
Yes, but a mass of syllables is not the TM system either. Many sounds
and words of the language - Long, Fine, and so on - may in fact be
used as mantras.
Have you even studied Sanskrit?
Then you suggest something about seed sounds:
TM uses beej mantras because they don't need any empowerment.
You also say that the TM initiation ceremony helps, and that other
ways may help too.
Do you know what shaktipat is?
The puja helps but Indian astrologers and ayurvedic practitioners
hand them out to clients without any elaborate initiation.
In Guru Dev's discourses one finds a similar view in choosing the
mantras. One gets a suitable mantra either by the guru or in some
other way. Paul Mason has gathered, translated and published several
books with ideas of Guru Dev.
where the beej mantras came from . . lost in antiquity and
undoubtedly commonly in use even at the time of Shankara.
This seems to be speculation.
The opinion of many scholars not just mine.
TM is really just yoga lite. -
I should say your proofs are lite too. Good, specific documentation is
the thing called for.
Then you don't know what is meant by yoga lite. You probably don't
even know the real meaning of yoga.
ROUNDING OFF
There are some sources outside TM, sources that reveal the settings
and transmission to Maharishi when he was trained by Guru Dev,
benefited by his company, and was asked to bring swift and deep
meditation to the masses.
Elsa Dragemark presents Dr. Raj Varma:
Doctor Varma came to Guru Dev six months before Maharishi and
knows more about Guru Dev and Maharishi than any other person I
have met. [p. 240]
Dr. Raj Varma tells (in Elsa Dragemark. The Way to Maharishi's
Himalayas. Stockholm: E. Dragemark, 1972):
Maharishi loyally followed in his master's footsteps. . . .
Maharishi stayed with Guru Dev until the day his master left his
body. It was in Calcutta, the 20th of May, 1953.
Guru Dev then called Maharishi and asked him to sit down. Guru Dev
said:
— My time is up. It is time to leave, but still one thing remains.
There was something else I should have done, but I did not have
the time to carry it out. It is the usual custom that the work
remaining for a guru is completed by his disciples. It is a
tradition that the father's task is completed by his son and what
now remains you shall complete by yourself.
— Master, Maharishi said, by your lotus feet, what remains? Your
wish is my command. What do you wish, tell me, so that I can
fulfil it. Guru Dev said:
— Look around. Many people are dejected. There is a lack of energy
in their minds. Their minds are not strong enough. What I {p. 261]
have taught you also contains the knowledge of the technique for
the householder, which has been misinterpreted and forgotten
during the centuries. This should now be perfected into a simple
method suitable for everyone. Ask the people to sit and meditate
after this method a few moments every morning and evening. Teach
them to enjoy life. . . .
Accordingly, basic TM is meant to be a well simplified and streamlined
mantra meditation for others than monks. It is mantra meditation, yes,
but there is a system beneath also (it seems to be Smartism), and Guru
Dev's teaching that OM is to be avoided among householders, but not
necessarily by monks and nuns.
Thus, there are mantras you won't find in TM. I should say it is
specialised mantra lore, with some elements in common with other
mantra teachings, as you suggest, but with a few decisive
characteristics of
Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are waiting to be published
Refreshing - we see that not everyone is impressed with I went to India and so
I'm an expert.
From: Tormod Kinnes tkin...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2014 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are
waiting to be published
Dear Bhairatu
You write of your background for saying TM is nothing but . . .. Good. But I
cannot help noting that you still don't give real examples to document your
stand.
For example, you write:
I also like to refer to Sivananda's Mind Its Mysteries and Control . . . to
point out the method of meditation TM uses with the mantras is nothing new
either as that work was first published in 1936.
I took the trouble to search through Sivananda's book, but if it contains
anything specific about the TM system, I missed it. The Smartist mantras and
the main criteria for selecting from among them are not specified there, not as
far as I could see after a quick search. Nor are Guru Dev's warning that OM
(which is often found in Sivananda's writings) is not a proper mantra for
householders.
You write
mantras were published in the west before Maharishi.
Yes, but a mass of syllables is not the TM system either. Many sounds and words
of the language - Long, Fine, and so on - may in fact be used as mantras.
Then you suggest something about seed sounds:
TM uses beej mantras because they don't need any empowerment.
You also say that the TM initiation ceremony helps, and that other ways may
help too.
The puja helps but Indian astrologers and ayurvedic practitioners hand them
out to clients without any elaborate initiation.
In Guru Dev's discourses one finds a similar view in choosing the mantras. One
gets a suitable mantra either by the guru or in some other way. Paul Mason has
gathered, translated and published several books with ideas of Guru Dev.
where the beej mantras came from . . lost in antiquity and undoubtedly
commonly in use even at the time of Shankara.
This seems to be speculation.
TM is really just yoga lite. -
I should say your proofs are lite too. Good, specific documentation is the
thing called for.
ROUNDING OFF
There are some sources outside TM, sources that reveal the settings and
transmission to Maharishi when he was trained by Guru Dev, benefited by his
company, and was asked to bring swift and deep meditation to the masses.
Elsa Dragemark presents Dr. Raj Varma:
Doctor Varma came to Guru Dev six months before Maharishi and knows more
about Guru Dev and Maharishi than any other person I have met. [p. 240]
Dr. Raj Varma tells (in Elsa Dragemark. The Way to Maharishi's Himalayas.
Stockholm: E. Dragemark, 1972):
Maharishi loyally followed in his master's footsteps. . . .
Maharishi stayed with Guru Dev until the day his master left his body. It was
in Calcutta, the 20th of May, 1953.
Guru Dev then called Maharishi and asked him to sit down. Guru Dev said:
— My time is up. It is time to leave, but still one thing remains. There was
something else I should have done, but I did not have the time to carry it out.
It is the usual custom that the work remaining for a guru is completed by his
disciples. It is a tradition that the father's task is completed by his son and
what now remains you shall complete by yourself.
— Master, Maharishi said, by your lotus feet, what remains? Your wish is my
command. What do you wish, tell me, so that I can fulfil it. Guru Dev said:
— Look around. Many people are dejected. There is a lack of energy in their
minds. Their minds are not strong enough. What I {p. 261] have taught you also
contains the knowledge of the technique for the householder, which has been
misinterpreted and forgotten during the centuries. This should now be perfected
into a simple method suitable for everyone. Ask the people to sit and meditate
after this method a few moments every morning and evening. Teach them to enjoy
life. . . .
Accordingly, basic TM is meant to be a well simplified and streamlined mantra
meditation for others than monks. It is mantra meditation, yes, but there is a
system beneath also (it seems to be Smartism), and Guru Dev's teaching that OM
is to be avoided among householders, but not necessarily by monks and nuns.
Thus, there are mantras you won't find in TM. I should say it is specialised
mantra lore, with some elements in common with other mantra teachings, as you
suggest, but with a few decisive characteristics of its own too.
If other mantra methods eventually come up with research documentation that is
as good as the better TM documentation, I won't say TM stands out a lot.
Till then . . .
Regards,
--
T. Kinnes #yiv5907422750 #yiv5907422750 -- #yiv5907422750ygrp-mkp {border:1px
solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px
Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are waiting to be published
Visiting India will give you an understanding of their culture which you
cannot otherwise get. And you MJ, make huge mistakes misunderstanding
Indian culture. What would you think if someone told you how some bakery
good you make tastes if they never eaten it?
On 11/22/2014 06:20 PM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com
[FairfieldLife] wrote:
Refreshing - we see that not everyone is impressed with I went to
India and so I'm an expert.
*From:* Tormod Kinnes tkin...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
*To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
*Sent:* Saturday, November 22, 2014 5:51 PM
*Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati
discourses are waiting to be published
Dear Bhairatu
You write of your background for saying TM is nothing but . . ..
Good. But I cannot help noting that you still don't give real examples
to document your stand.
For example, you write:
I also like to refer to Sivananda's Mind Its Mysteries and
Control . . . to point out the method of meditation TM uses with
the mantras is nothing new either as that work was first published
in 1936.
I took the trouble to search through Sivananda's book, but if it
contains anything specific about the TM system, I missed it.
The Smartist mantras and the main criteria for selecting from among
them are not specified there, not as far as I could see after a quick
search. Nor are Guru Dev's warning that OM (which is often found in
Sivananda's writings) is not a proper mantra for householders.
You write
mantras were published in the west before Maharishi.
Yes, but a mass of syllables is not the TM system either. Many sounds
and words of the language - Long, Fine, and so on - may in fact be
used as mantras.
Then you suggest something about seed sounds:
TM uses beej mantras because they don't need any empowerment.
You also say that the TM initiation ceremony helps, and that other
ways may help too.
The puja helps but Indian astrologers and ayurvedic practitioners
hand them out to clients without any elaborate initiation.
In Guru Dev's discourses one finds a similar view in choosing the
mantras. One gets a suitable mantra either by the guru or in some
other way. Paul Mason has gathered, translated and published several
books with ideas of Guru Dev.
where the beej mantras came from . . lost in antiquity and
undoubtedly commonly in use even at the time of Shankara.
This seems to be speculation.
TM is really just yoga lite. -
I should say your proofs are lite too. Good, specific documentation is
the thing called for.
ROUNDING OFF
There are some sources outside TM, sources that reveal the settings
and transmission to Maharishi when he was trained by Guru Dev,
benefited by his company, and was asked to bring swift and deep
meditation to the masses.
Elsa Dragemark presents Dr. Raj Varma:
Doctor Varma came to Guru Dev six months before Maharishi and
knows more about Guru Dev and Maharishi than any other person I
have met. [p. 240]
Dr. Raj Varma tells (in Elsa Dragemark. The Way to Maharishi's
Himalayas. Stockholm: E. Dragemark, 1972):
Maharishi loyally followed in his master's footsteps. . . .
Maharishi stayed with Guru Dev until the day his master left his
body. It was in Calcutta, the 20th of May, 1953.
Guru Dev then called Maharishi and asked him to sit down. Guru Dev
said:
— My time is up. It is time to leave, but still one thing remains.
There was something else I should have done, but I did not have
the time to carry it out. It is the usual custom that the work
remaining for a guru is completed by his disciples. It is a
tradition that the father's task is completed by his son and what
now remains you shall complete by yourself.
— Master, Maharishi said, by your lotus feet, what remains? Your
wish is my command. What do you wish, tell me, so that I can
fulfil it. Guru Dev said:
— Look around. Many people are dejected. There is a lack of energy
in their minds. Their minds are not strong enough. What I {p. 261]
have taught you also contains the knowledge of the technique for
the householder, which has been misinterpreted and forgotten
during the centuries. This should now be perfected into a simple
method suitable for everyone. Ask the people to sit and meditate
after this method a few moments every morning and evening. Teach
them to enjoy life. . . .
Accordingly, basic TM is meant to be a well simplified and streamlined
mantra meditation for others than monks. It is mantra meditation, yes,
but there is a system beneath also (it seems to be Smartism), and Guru
Dev's teaching that OM is to be avoided among householders, but not
necessarily
Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are waiting to be published
You have no idea what I or anyone else knows about India and your trip or trips
there make you no expert.Your time in TM seems to have given you a certain
amount of TM similar hubris on your expertise - perhaps you can give us some
John Hagelin style videos of your I'm certain I'm right cuz I been to new Delhi?
From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2014 9:36 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are
waiting to be published
Visiting India will give you an understanding of their culture which you
cannot otherwise get. And you MJ, make huge mistakes misunderstanding Indian
culture. What would you think if someone told you how some bakery good you
make tastes if they never eaten it?
On 11/22/2014 06:20 PM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
wrote:
Refreshing - we see that not everyone is impressed with I went to India
and so I'm an expert.
From: Tormod Kinnes tkin...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2014 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Many Swami Brahmananda Saraswati discourses are
waiting to be published
Dear Bhairatu
You write of your background for saying TM is nothing but . . .. Good. But
I cannot help noting that you still don't give real examples to document your
stand.
For example, you write:
I also like to refer to Sivananda's Mind Its Mysteries and Control . . . to
point out the method of meditation TM uses with the mantras is nothing new
either as that work was first published in 1936.
I took the trouble to search through Sivananda's book, but if it contains
anything specific about the TM system, I missed it. The Smartist mantras and
the main criteria for selecting from among them are not specified there, not as
far as I could see after a quick search. Nor are Guru Dev's warning that OM
(which is often found in Sivananda's writings) is not a proper mantra for
householders.
You write
mantras were published in the west before Maharishi.
Yes, but a mass of syllables is not the TM system either. Many sounds and
words of the language - Long, Fine, and so on - may in fact be used as
mantras.
Then you suggest something about seed sounds:
TM uses beej mantras because they don't need any empowerment.
You also say that the TM initiation ceremony helps, and that other ways may
help too.
The puja helps but Indian astrologers and ayurvedic practitioners hand them
out to clients without any elaborate initiation.
In Guru Dev's discourses one finds a similar view in choosing the mantras.
One gets a suitable mantra either by the guru or in some other way. Paul Mason
has gathered, translated and published several books with ideas of Guru Dev.
where the beej mantras came from . . lost in antiquity and undoubtedly
commonly in use even at the time of Shankara.
This seems to be speculation.
TM is really just yoga lite. -
I should say your proofs are lite too. Good, specific documentation is the
thing called for.
ROUNDING OFF
There are some sources outside TM, sources that reveal the settings and
transmission to Maharishi when he was trained by Guru Dev, benefited by his
company, and was asked to bring swift and deep meditation to the masses.
Elsa Dragemark presents Dr. Raj Varma:
Doctor Varma came to Guru Dev six months before Maharishi and knows more
about Guru Dev and Maharishi than any other person I have met. [p. 240]
Dr. Raj Varma tells (in Elsa Dragemark. The Way to Maharishi's Himalayas.
Stockholm: E. Dragemark, 1972):
Maharishi loyally followed in his master's footsteps. . . .
Maharishi stayed with Guru Dev until the day his master left his body. It was
in Calcutta, the 20th of May, 1953.
Guru Dev then called Maharishi and asked him to sit down. Guru Dev said:
— My time is up. It is time to leave, but still one thing remains. There was
something else I should have done, but I did not have the time to carry it out.
It is the usual custom that the work remaining for a guru is completed by his
disciples. It is a tradition that the father's task is completed by his son and
what now remains you shall complete by yourself.
— Master, Maharishi said, by your lotus feet, what remains? Your wish is my
command. What do you wish, tell me, so that I can fulfil it. Guru Dev said:
— Look around. Many people are dejected. There is a lack of energy in their
minds. Their minds are not strong enough. What I {p. 261] have taught you also
contains the knowledge of the technique for the householder, which has been
misinterpreted and forgotten during the centuries. This should now be perfected
into a simple
