Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Secrets of Alchemy
Seraphita, I can't help but think about Big Pharma as I read these posts about alchemy. There are hints that it had to do with herbs and health. Certainly longevity, maybe even immortality? I would think that he Church would be against immortality obtained in such an earthly way! As for nowadays I don't think Big Pharma would want anyone finding out about health and longevity within the realm of herbs and herbal combinations. From: s3raph...@yahoo.com s3raph...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 9:25 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] RE: Secrets of Alchemy Re: I'm not sure quite what you're asking. I don't think anybody feels inhibited about discussing either the spiritual or the chemistry aspects of alchemy . . . I encountered Jung's theories about alchemy, which portrayed it as an experimental discipline purportedly leading to enlightenment, for which lead-into-gold and all the various laboratory procedures and results described in the texts were merely coded metaphors intended to throw the Church off the scent of heresy. : That's precisely what I'm referring to. As you and I don't have to worry about the Church burning us at the stake we no longer need to decipher coded metaphors or wade through arcane symbolism. And so, with a sigh of relief, if we want to talk about spirituality we can call a spade a spade and speak to each other in plain language. Therefore alchemy is now just a historical curiosity. There are some modern alchemists who claim that their discipline is neither fancy symbolism for a spiritual search nor just a chemistry set but . . . well, something else - but I'm not sure what they're on about as you have to join a secret society or whatever to learn more. ---In fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote: Seraphita wondered: If alchemy is viewed as a spiritual practice which, in the past, had to hide its secrets to avoid persecution from the Church then why bother about all that impenetrable symbolism now that we are free to say what we like? I'm not sure quite what you're asking. I don't think anybody feels inhibited about discussing either the spiritual or the chemistry aspects of alchemy. I'm fascinated by the book's thesis because when I first heard about alchemy (probably in high school 50-mumble years ago), it was portrayed as a superstitious and obviously futile attempt to turn lead into gold by folks who knew nothing of the principles of chemistry. Some years later I encountered Jung's theories about alchemy, which portrayed it as an experimental discipline purportedly leading to enlightenment, for which lead-into-gold and all the various laboratory procedures and results described in the texts were merely coded metaphors intended to throw the Church off the scent of heresy. Now it turns out, apparently, that the alchemists were really skilled chemists, and what their texts actually encoded in flowery language were the actual recipes of their laboratory procedures and results. The idea that the texts really dealt with esoteric practices for enlightenment had led scholars to disregard the authentic chemistry behind the encoding. Which isn't to say the alchemists were not spiritually minded, given that knowledge itself was perceived to be divine, but rather that they were genuinely pursuing the secrets of chemistry, with considerable success (although they obviously never achieved the ultimate goal of transmuting lead into gold). IOW, the alchemists were neither fuzzy-headed would-be scientists nor fuzzy-headed would-be saints but real scientists who believed their experimental work would prove to be dangerous if it fell into the hands of people who didn't know what they were doing--hence the encoding, which would be understandable only to other highly trained alchemists. At least, this is how I understand the review to be characterizing the thesis of the book. If alchemy is viewed as involving real ingredients going into real retorts, etc, is there anything the old-time alchemists knew that modern chemists don't know? I was wondering too about whether the book said the alchemists knew anything modern chemists don't, but I think the reviewer meant their results were spectacular only relative to the knowledge of the times. Modern chemists might well be surprised and impressed by how much the alchemists had figured out so many centuries ago, but they wouldn't learn anything new about chemistry per se. Does that help? ---In fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote: From a review by Nicholas Popper of Lawrence M. Principe's Secrets of Alchemy: Alchemy has not always been associated with esoteric mystics muttering necromantic incantations in the quest for spiritual purification. For much of its history, Principe reveals, alchemy was recognized as a sophisticated pursuit entailing the vigorous exertion
Re: Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Secrets of Alchemy
Judy, as I said, there were hints, brief mentions of herbs. I was suggesting that option given that neither chemistry nor enlightenment seemed to cover the whole endeavor, especially in contemporary times. From: authfri...@yahoo.com authfri...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 10:02 AM Subject: RE: Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Secrets of Alchemy You might just want to read the entire exchange, Share, including the quote I posted initially from the review of the new book about alchemy, as well as my responses to Seraphita. (You could even read the entire review at the link I posted.) Then you'll know what the most up-to-date scholarly research says about alchemy, instead of having to resort to outdated speculations. I've left everything in below so you can check it out. Share wrote: Seraphita, I can't help but think about Big Pharma as I read these posts about alchemy. There are hints that it had to do with herbs and health. Certainly longevity, maybe even immortality? I would think that he Church would be against immortality obtained in such an earthly way! As for nowadays I don't think Big Pharma would want anyone finding out about health and longevity within the realm of herbs and herbal combinations. From: s3raphita@... s3raphita@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 9:25 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] RE: Secrets of Alchemy Re: I'm not sure quite what you're asking. I don't think anybody feels inhibited about discussing either the spiritual or the chemistry aspects of alchemy . . . I encountered Jung's theories about alchemy, which portrayed it as an experimental discipline purportedly leading to enlightenment, for which lead-into-gold and all the various laboratory procedures and results described in the texts were merely coded metaphors intended to throw the Church off the scent of heresy. : That's precisely what I'm referring to. As you and I don't have to worry about the Church burning us at the stake we no longer need to decipher coded metaphors or wade through arcane symbolism. And so, with a sigh of relief, if we want to talk about spirituality we can call a spade a spade and speak to each other in plain language. Therefore alchemy is now just a historical curiosity. There are some modern alchemists who claim that their discipline is neither fancy symbolism for a spiritual search nor just a chemistry set but . . . well, something else - but I'm not sure what they're on about as you have to join a secret society or whatever to learn more. ---In fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote: Seraphita wondered: If alchemy is viewed as a spiritual practice which, in the past, had to hide its secrets to avoid persecution from the Church then why bother about all that impenetrable symbolism now that we are free to say what we like? I'm not sure quite what you're asking. I don't think anybody feels inhibited about discussing either the spiritual or the chemistry aspects of alchemy. I'm fascinated by the book's thesis because when I first heard about alchemy (probably in high school 50-mumble years ago), it was portrayed as a superstitious and obviously futile attempt to turn lead into gold by folks who knew nothing of the principles of chemistry. Some years later I encountered Jung's theories about alchemy, which portrayed it as an experimental discipline purportedly leading to enlightenment, for which lead-into-gold and all the various laboratory procedures and results described in the texts were merely coded metaphors intended to throw the Church off the scent of heresy. Now it turns out, apparently, that the alchemists were really skilled chemists, and what their texts actually encoded in flowery language were the actual recipes of their laboratory procedures and results. The idea that the texts really dealt with esoteric practices for enlightenment had led scholars to disregard the authentic chemistry behind the encoding. Which isn't to say the alchemists were not spiritually minded, given that knowledge itself was perceived to be divine, but rather that they were genuinely pursuing the secrets of chemistry, with considerable success (although they obviously never achieved the ultimate goal of transmuting lead into gold). IOW, the alchemists were neither fuzzy-headed would-be scientists nor fuzzy-headed would-be saints but real scientists who believed their experimental work would prove to be dangerous if it fell into the hands of people who didn't know what they were doing--hence the encoding, which would be understandable only to other highly trained alchemists. At least, this is how I understand the review to be characterizing the thesis of the book. If alchemy is viewed as involving real ingredients going into real retorts, etc, is there anything
Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Secrets of Alchemy
ah ha! the plot thickens... From: s3raph...@yahoo.com s3raph...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 10:21 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] RE: Secrets of Alchemy In new-age shops I've noticed a couple of books by this chap - I've not read them but he's into TM! ROBERT E. COX holds a master’s degree in Vedic Studies from the Institute of Creative Intelligence in Switzerland. For nine years he lived as a reclusive monk, during which time he received intuitive cognitions regarding the structure and dynamics of consciousness that inspired his research. Might be worth a peek? Google the titles : - The Elixir of Immortality: A Modern-Day Alchemist's Discovery of the Philosopher's Stone and Creating the Soul Body: The Sacred Science of Immortality ---In fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote: From a review by Nicholas Popper of Lawrence M. Principe's Secrets of Alchemy: Alchemy has not always been associated with esoteric mystics muttering necromantic incantations in the quest for spiritual purification. For much of its history, Principe reveals, alchemy was recognized as a sophisticated pursuit entailing the vigorous exertion of mind and hand, a convergence of laboratory experimentation and theoretical speculation that yielded spectacular control of chemical processes. To protect their hard-earned knowledge, alchemists wrote under pseudonyms and encrypted discoveries in mystical-sounding codenames (Decknamen). While this contributed to alchemy’s association with mysticism, Principe argues persuasively that its traditional essence lay in the expert combining of substances, and that no account of it can rightfully ignore its experimental and material foundations ...Such flawed [mystical] interpretations stem from projecting post-Enlightenment meanings of alchemy onto the earlier period and assuming that earlier alchemists’ spiritual declarations wholly governed their coded recipesThese reflected a context in which all knowledge was described as a divine gift Read more: http://www.the-tls.co.uk/tls/public/article1317931.ece
Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Secrets of Alchemy
The alchemical tradition in India begins with the Nath Siddhas - they wanted to become 'siddhas', that is, enlightened yogins who had realized the ultimate while yet living - jivan-mukti. Yoga is alchemical in the sense that brain chemicals can be altered by means of mantra and hatha yoga. According to MMY soma is produced in the human gut during meditation. Shaman rituals and customs are widespread in India. Closely associated with the legend of the Northern Shaman is the classical form of ecstatic practice. The word shaman means 'to know' in the Tunga language, associated with the Fly Agaric or Amanita muscaria, the 'magic mushroom of immortality'. The use of Amanita was practiced by groups all across the northern Eurasia, especially eastern Siberia before the migration to South Asia. According to what I've read, there is some evidence that those who used prehistoric drinking vessels as 'beakers' took Fly Agaric in a ritual, cultic context. There is an old nursery rhyme: He has of purple pure A mantle around him. Say, who may the manikin be Who stands there on one leg? On 9/27/2013 10:26 AM, Share Long wrote: ah ha! the plot thickens... *From:* s3raph...@yahoo.com s3raph...@yahoo.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Friday, September 27, 2013 10:21 AM *Subject:* [FairfieldLife] RE: Secrets of Alchemy In new-age shops I've noticed a couple of books by this chap - I've not read them but he's into TM! ROBERT E. COX holds a master’s degree in Vedic Studies from the Institute of Creative Intelligence in Switzerland. For nine years he lived as a reclusive monk, during which time he received intuitive cognitions regarding the structure and dynamics of consciousness that inspired his research. Might be worth a peek? Google the titles : - The Elixir of Immortality: A Modern-Day Alchemist's Discovery of the Philosopher's Stone and Creating the Soul Body: The Sacred Science of Immortality ---In fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote: From a review by Nicholas Popper of Lawrence M. Principe's Secrets of Alchemy: Alchemy has not always been associated with esoteric mystics muttering necromantic incantations in the quest for spiritual purification. For much of its history, Principe reveals, alchemy was recognized as a sophisticated pursuit entailing the vigorous exertion of mind and hand, a convergence of laboratory experimentation and theoretical speculation that yielded spectacular control of chemical processes. To protect their hard-earned knowledge, alchemists wrote under pseudonyms and encrypted discoveries in mystical-sounding codenames (Decknamen). While this contributed to alchemy’s association with mysticism, Principe argues persuasively that its traditional essence lay in the expert combining of substances, and that no account of it can rightfully ignore its experimental and material foundations ...Such flawed [mystical] interpretations stem from projecting post-Enlightenment meanings of alchemy onto the earlier period and assuming that earlier alchemists’ spiritual declarations wholly governed their coded recipesThese reflected a context in which all knowledge was described as a divine gift Read more: http://www.the-tls.co.uk/tls/public/article1317931.ece
Re: Re: Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Secrets of Alchemy
Judy, in the 3rd paragraph Popper mentions not only Galenic humoural theory but also the promise of potent medicines. Later both plants and metals are mentioned as being thrown into the fire. From: authfri...@yahoo.com authfri...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 2:04 PM Subject: RE: Re: Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Secrets of Alchemy Share rattled on: Judy, as I said, there were hints, brief mentions of herbs. So informative. Where were these hints and mentions? I was suggesting that option given that neither chemistry nor enlightenment seemed to cover the whole endeavor, especially in contemporary times. Don't know about contemporary times. We were talking, after all, about the alchemy of the past, which seems to be quite well covered by chemistry and enlightenment, at least according to scholarly research. Modern neo-alchemists might well want to hint that old-timey alchemy involved herbs, whether it did or not, since there's considerable commercial potential in selling expensive herbal potions to New Age types (especially aging baby boomers). From: authfriend@... authfriend@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 10:02 AM Subject: RE: Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Secrets of Alchemy You might just want to read the entire exchange, Share, including the quote I posted initially from the review of the new book about alchemy, as well as my responses to Seraphita. (You could even read the entire review at the link I posted.) Then you'll know what the most up-to-date scholarly research says about alchemy, instead of having to resort to outdated speculations. I've left everything in below so you can check it out. Share wrote: Seraphita, I can't help but think about Big Pharma as I read these posts about alchemy. There are hints that it had to do with herbs and health. Certainly longevity, maybe even immortality? I would think that he Church would be against immortality obtained in such an earthly way! As for nowadays I don't think Big Pharma would want anyone finding out about health and longevity within the realm of herbs and herbal combinations.
