Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
Xeno wrote: We all have cultural biases we are not even cognizant of that fashions our thinking in particular channels, and if we are not aware of them, these behavioural rigidities can be used to control us, or even if no external forces impinge on us, can subvert our own desires. Share asks: Is it even possible for there to be no external forces impinging upon us? Are there even forces external or internal? Xeno also wrote: Conditioning runs deep, and even with a lot of experiential unboundedness, it can be hard to break down. Share comments: I saw this in the workshop on Sunday. In the afternoon we did an exercise about our requirements for friendship and partnership. People did not want to neutralize those even though at that point everyone had experienced many times how much more freedom there was after neutralizing. I'd say fear is the main factor in this situation. From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartax...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 9:13 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Yikes! Then maybe I didn't really understand what Xeno was saying. Xeno, what did you mean? My interpretation was that the placebo effect can enter an individual's system by many avenues, meaning of the individuality: ego, emotions, thoughts, physical imbalances, environmental factors, etc. And if he did so he is correct. If that is what he meant, I wouldn't dispute it. I don't think he's saying what Barry says below, but he can chime in if he wants and clarify. It's Barry who is trying to mislead you by misrepresenting the point I was making, which he has chosen not to address. I've made that point clear in other posts, so I won't go into it again. Basically it has to do with discriminating between what sorts of activities and results can be said to involve the placebo effect and which cannot. Quite obviously it's inappropriate to claim, as Barry did, that the results reported in the study that began this discussion are a result of the placebo effect. It appears that Barry read no more than the headline before making his claim. All of what he writes here is intended to distract attention from my point. Strictly speaking, the placebo effect deals with a medically inactive substance that is promoted to the patient as a cure for what ails them. We do observe what appears to be analogous responses in other venues. I generalised the concept. This is what you do in science. A limited effect is observed and verified. A scientist then wonders if the effect extends to a wider realm. Thus specific observation and induction lead to a general rule in a limited case. Extrapolation and induction make the attempt to generalise the concept further. While planetary orbits do not at all resemble the world of quantum mechanics, the idea that electrons orbit a nucleus of protons and neutrons, once those particles identities were well established, allowed further advances in knowledge even though electron orbitals proved very unlike gravitationally bound planetary orbits. What I was doing was extending the idea of the placebo to a generalised 'anticipation response' that presumably would operate on similar mental and biological principles by which the body and mind respond to a given situation in the context of a strongly held belief, even if that belief is total nonsense. In terms of SCI, that religious doctrine in the disguise of science, it is a move from point value to infinity. We see the same idea, analogously, in spirituality. We say that in a world of specificity and multiplicity of things and concepts, there is an unbound, nonspecific value, which if experienced, will give us more freedom. At first that value, if experienced, is very momentary. Eventually, the story goes, it becomes more contiguous in time, and eventually subsumes all experiences, a path of evolving experience that goes from specific values to a totally unspecific quality of experience, in which there is no longer any path of progression possible. One of the interesting results of this is people can experience life becoming meaningless because the dominant quality of experience becomes nonspecific (that is a spiritual trap, but it happens to a lot of people). The ultimate meaning of one's life becomes inexpressible. Both experientially and intellectually, the move from specific to general results in the specificity becoming less meaningful as context expands. At one time the electric force and the magnetic force were specific separate realms, until Maxwell found a way to show they were the same. Quantum electrodynamics and quantum chromodynamics have
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
Yikes! Then maybe I didn't really understand what Xeno was saying. Xeno, what did you mean? My interpretation was that the placebo effect can enter an individual's system by many avenues, meaning of the individuality: ego, emotions, thoughts, physical imbalances, environmental factors, etc. From: authfriend authfri...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 9:00 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Xeno, I appreciate especially when you say below, ...the many avenues by which it can enter... I'd never thought of placebo in that way. Nor should you. Xeno is using the term so broadly and loosely that it gets diluted to the point of meaninglessness. Lourdes is a reasonable example; people go there with the expectation of being cured of a specific ailment, which either occurs or does not occur. Kumbh Mela is not, at least as the effects of attendance were described in the study that started this discussion. Research on activities with spiritual themes historically have tended to be sloppy with regard to evaluating the presence and strength of the placebo effect, and the many avenues by which it can enter and confound results. From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 4:35 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ann wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: And from the official website of the Kumbh Mela: It's the mythological history of India and the sacred religious texts that bind us carnal souls to an eternal hope - things will be better, without the ever-imminent fear of them getting worse that cripples us here. 'An eternal life free of sins' is the promise that comes attached with the magnificent event of Kumbh Mela. It's a promise to which millions want to be bound with, and it is this promise that has made Kumbh Mela what it is today. My bad. On second glance this does not appear to be any kind of official website, just one trying to sell tours there. But it is downright silly to pretend that there are no promises of benefits made about attending the Kumbh Mela. Sorry, no, you've stepped in it again. I never said there were no promises of benefits made about attending. And of course the fulfillment of the promise of eternal life free of sins is not one that was measured by the study. All it looked at was the reported well-being of the pilgrims after attending. Nor did the study's conclusions aver that anything mystically spiritual happened to the pilgrims to improve their well-being. Rather, it was the communal experience that did it--very much like attending a ball game. So you've gone out on a limb again, it snapped in two, and you've done yet another face-plant. Everyody here knows that when you make an ass of yourself and someone points it out, you try to go after the person in an attempt to save face. Almost always, as in this case, you lose even *more* face. This has happened to you countless times since I first encountered you 17 years ago, and you still haven't gotten that when you make a mistake, you'll look a whole lot better admitting it. That's why it's such fun to correct you and watch you do it to yourself all over again, as if you somehow think it's going to be *different* this time. And you know, you can tell when he is REALLY smarting because he drags out the shopworn DC moniker. That thing is so tatty, moth-eaten and ugly I don't know why he hasn't taken it to the dump years ago. But I guess if he did he would actually have to come up with something else he thinks will really get the women going. Barry is not exactly known for his expansive repertoire; he likes to stick with the tried and true. Ah. these jovial discussions. After all the research done on the placebo effect, one can with fair confidence assume that in any situation where people are either expecting a result, or are engaged in some activity in which they have an invested belief, the placebo effect is probably operating full blast. High quality studies done at NIH in the last ten years or so on various alternative medicine treatments seem to indicate that it is entirely the placebo effect that produces a result from these treatments. We could expect the effect to operate where people are on pilgrimages to various locations, such a Lourdes, etc., though proving it to any degree would
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
The vagus nerve connection to placebo effect makes sense to me because I've heard that it's connected to fight or flight, begins in solar plexus, ends in bottom of pelvic floor. Personally I've observed that when fear of death arises, usually there's a tightness in my solar plexus. I know of one therapist who studied a technique that involved relaxing the pelvic floor and I personally know of techniques that involve putting the attention on the solar plexus area. I'm glad that we're learning about the importance of this area. But when you say that some are more susceptible than others, what does that mean exactly? That they experience more objectively observable benefits and for longer periods of time? That their vagal tone index improves most quickly but then also returns to original state most quickly? Definitely a rich angle on the research. Some fMRI work could also be done. See what parts of the brain are becoming active and when, etc. What comes to mind is Tara Bennett Goleman explaining the brain neural pathways like ruts in a dirt road. The more one thinks the same thought, the deeper that rut gets and the more likely one is to think that thought again. Conversely, even ONE time thinking a different thought or taking a different course of action allows new neural pathways to be activated. Could be especially helpful with addictions. Extending this metaphor, I'd say what Paul Wong's neutralizing process does is fill up those ruts in the road so that all neural pathways are equally open to being followed. From: turquoiseb no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 10:28 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Yikes! Then maybe I didn't really understand what Xeno was saying. Xeno, what did you mean? My interpretation was that the placebo effect can enter an individual's system by many avenues, meaning of the individuality: ego, emotions, thoughts, physical imbalances, environmental factors, etc. And if he did so he is correct. The modern understand of that which triggers the placebo effect is that it could be pretty much *anything*. A person wearing a white coat, a person handing you a pill to take, whether the pill is inert or real, even the language used by a supposed physician or tester, and whether or not they have a friendly beside manner or not. Despite the way that authfriend is trying to mislead you here, *anything* that triggers a belief in the subject that their condition -- whether it be physical, mental, or spiritual -- will improve as a result of what is offered (even if what is offered is a technique, such as TM), there is a high probability that for many people, it *will* improve. At the very least, temporarily. Science has not yet completely pinned down the mechanics of what makes one person more susceptible to the placebo effect than another person, but they are working on it furiously. At least one study published in the journal Psychological Health indicates that it may have something to do with the vagus nerve, and the condition of one's vagal tone index. Another study published by PLoSOne shows that it may be genetic, and a result of the catechol- O-methyltransferase (COMT) gene, which regulates dopamine production. But you can be sure they're working on the issue, because at present the placebo effect is costing pharmaceutical companies billions of dollars per year. They can no longer get new drugs released, because they cannot prove that they have any more effect than an inert sugar pill -- a placebo. Even drugs that have been on the market for years are now unable to replicate the original research that allowed them to be marketed, because these now-common and commonly- prescribed drugs can't perform any better than a placebo, either. So they're working furiously to try to understand the placebo effect, and to figure out who is more prone to it than others, so that they can use this information when finding subjects for drug and psychological trials. The idea is -- eliminate those with a high propensity to imagine good effects from a non-drug (those sensitive or more prone to the placebo effect) and form both your drug groups and your placebo groups from a population that is *not* as sensitive to placebos, and drug testing might get back on track again. But basically *anything* can be a placebo. Something you hear at a lecture, something you read, some technique someone tells you to do, or even some pilgrimage someone tells you to take. Those who are placebo-prone will get some benefit from it, whether there is any legitimate reason for the benefit or not. THAT is what I believe is happening with the Kumbh Mela. It is *classic* placebo, with centuries of PR touting the sup- posed benefits of going
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
Here's some information on the vagus nerve http://www.meddean.luc.edu/lumen/MedEd/grossanatomy/h_n/cn/cn1/cn10.htm From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 8:48 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being The vagus nerve connection to placebo effect makes sense to me because I've heard that it's connected to fight or flight, begins in solar plexus, ends in bottom of pelvic floor. Personally I've observed that when fear of death arises, usually there's a tightness in my solar plexus. I know of one therapist who studied a technique that involved relaxing the pelvic floor and I personally know of techniques that involve putting the attention on the solar plexus area. I'm glad that we're learning about the importance of this area. But when you say that some are more susceptible than others, what does that mean exactly? That they experience more objectively observable benefits and for longer periods of time? That their vagal tone index improves most quickly but then also returns to original state most quickly? Definitely a rich angle on the research. Some fMRI work could also be done. See what parts of the brain are becoming active and when, etc. What comes to mind is Tara Bennett Goleman explaining the brain neural pathways like ruts in a dirt road. The more one thinks the same thought, the deeper that rut gets and the more likely one is to think that thought again. Conversely, even ONE time thinking a different thought or taking a different course of action allows new neural pathways to be activated. Could be especially helpful with addictions. Extending this metaphor, I'd say what Paul Wong's neutralizing process does is fill up those ruts in the road so that all neural pathways are equally open to being followed. From: turquoiseb no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 10:28 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Yikes! Then maybe I didn't really understand what Xeno was saying. Xeno, what did you mean? My interpretation was that the placebo effect can enter an individual's system by many avenues, meaning of the individuality: ego, emotions, thoughts, physical imbalances, environmental factors, etc. And if he did so he is correct. The modern understand of that which triggers the placebo effect is that it could be pretty much *anything*. A person wearing a white coat, a person handing you a pill to take, whether the pill is inert or real, even the language used by a supposed physician or tester, and whether or not they have a friendly beside manner or not. Despite the way that authfriend is trying to mislead you here, *anything* that triggers a belief in the subject that their condition -- whether it be physical, mental, or spiritual -- will improve as a result of what is offered (even if what is offered is a technique, such as TM), there is a high probability that for many people, it *will* improve. At the very least, temporarily. Science has not yet completely pinned down the mechanics of what makes one person more susceptible to the placebo effect than another person, but they are working on it furiously. At least one study published in the journal Psychological Health indicates that it may have something to do with the vagus nerve, and the condition of one's vagal tone index. Another study published by PLoSOne shows that it may be genetic, and a result of the catechol- O-methyltransferase (COMT) gene, which regulates dopamine production. But you can be sure they're working on the issue, because at present the placebo effect is costing pharmaceutical companies billions of dollars per year. They can no longer get new drugs released, because they cannot prove that they have any more effect than an inert sugar pill -- a placebo. Even drugs that have been on the market for years are now unable to replicate the original research that allowed them to be marketed, because these now-common and commonly- prescribed drugs can't perform any better than a placebo, either. So they're working furiously to try to understand the placebo effect, and to figure out who is more prone to it than others, so that they can use this information when finding subjects for drug and psychological trials. The idea is -- eliminate those with a high propensity to imagine good effects from a non-drug (those sensitive or more prone to the placebo effect) and form both your drug groups and your placebo groups from a population that is *not* as sensitive to placebos, and drug testing might get back on track again. But basically *anything* can
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
Since the placebo effect seems to work, then isn't it reasonable to study the underlying factors involved in that? Why does the placebo effect work? In the TED talk below, Dan Gilbert talks about what makes people happy, which seems connected to this topic of placebos. Only 20 minutes and he's a very lively and engaging speaker. http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy.html From: turquoiseb no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 4:04 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being of Pilgrims; Positive impact remains even after the event Otherwise known as the placebo effect.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
Xeno, I appreciate especially when you say below, ...the many avenues by which it can enter... I'd never thought of placebo in that way. Research on activities with spiritual themes historically have tended to be sloppy with regard to evaluating the presence and strength of the placebo effect, and the many avenues by which it can enter and confound results. From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartax...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 4:35 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ann wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: And from the official website of the Kumbh Mela: It's the mythological history of India and the sacred religious texts that bind us carnal souls to an eternal hope - things will be better, without the ever-imminent fear of them getting worse that cripples us here. 'An eternal life free of sins' is the promise that comes attached with the magnificent event of Kumbh Mela. It's a promise to which millions want to be bound with, and it is this promise that has made Kumbh Mela what it is today. My bad. On second glance this does not appear to be any kind of official website, just one trying to sell tours there. But it is downright silly to pretend that there are no promises of benefits made about attending the Kumbh Mela. Sorry, no, you've stepped in it again. I never said there were no promises of benefits made about attending. And of course the fulfillment of the promise of eternal life free of sins is not one that was measured by the study. All it looked at was the reported well-being of the pilgrims after attending. Nor did the study's conclusions aver that anything mystically spiritual happened to the pilgrims to improve their well-being. Rather, it was the communal experience that did it--very much like attending a ball game. So you've gone out on a limb again, it snapped in two, and you've done yet another face-plant. Everyody here knows that when you make an ass of yourself and someone points it out, you try to go after the person in an attempt to save face. Almost always, as in this case, you lose even *more* face. This has happened to you countless times since I first encountered you 17 years ago, and you still haven't gotten that when you make a mistake, you'll look a whole lot better admitting it. That's why it's such fun to correct you and watch you do it to yourself all over again, as if you somehow think it's going to be *different* this time. And you know, you can tell when he is REALLY smarting because he drags out the shopworn DC moniker. That thing is so tatty, moth-eaten and ugly I don't know why he hasn't taken it to the dump years ago. But I guess if he did he would actually have to come up with something else he thinks will really get the women going. Barry is not exactly known for his expansive repertoire; he likes to stick with the tried and true. Ah. these jovial discussions. After all the research done on the placebo effect, one can with fair confidence assume that in any situation where people are either expecting a result, or are engaged in some activity in which they have an invested belief, the placebo effect is probably operating full blast. High quality studies done at NIH in the last ten years or so on various alternative medicine treatments seem to indicate that it is entirely the placebo effect that produces a result from these treatments. We could expect the effect to operate where people are on pilgrimages to various locations, such a Lourdes, etc., though proving it to any degree would likely be difficult or impossible as a pilgrimage is a situation where one cannot effectively apply scientific controls. Both sides of this 'debate' are valid, as to causality. Research on activities with spiritual themes historically have tended to be sloppy with regard to evaluating the presence and strength of the placebo effect, and the many avenues by which it can enter and confound results. Suppose one did a study on the effect of chewing gum flavours in a spiritual community. If one of the flavours was Juicy Fruit and the other Lotus Blossom, you would have to control for some sort of expectation: Juicy Fruit might be associated in the mind, in memory, with baseball cards or crass, commercial products one frequented with as a child, hile a lotus is in some quarters considered a spiritual symbol. One might reason, based on the way placebos work, that in this case Juicy Fruit gum would have less placebo effect than Lotus Blossom gum, and that male subjects would perceive these products differently than women, and the study would have
