Re: Translation

2003-10-04 Thread Arash Zeini
On Saturday 04 October 2003 03:59, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

 Hi,

 You know that the 'book' in 'bookmark' is refering to the
 book/n/, not book/v/.  The original word bookmark/v/ is kind of
 tricky, as it's not listed in dictionaries, and is a invented to
 be used in browsers.  BTW, the standard Persian translation for
 bookmark/n/ is choob-alef.  It may seem weird, but better we
 stick with it and spread it around, instead of replacing with a
 new word.  I remember the word was there back in early 90s in
 Persian MS Windows 3.1s.  And perhaps bookmark/v/ can be
 translated as choob-alef gozaashtan or literally choob-alef
 gozaardan.


 behdad

This is exactly how we have translated bookmark for FarsiKDE.

Greetings,
Arash
 On Fri, 3 Oct 2003, Ali A Khanban wrote:
  It seems to me something like sabt-e neshaani for bookmark is more
  relevant, if we look at the meaning and also think of book as
  register. So for bookmark this page we may say neshaani-ye in
  safhe raa sabt konid.
 
  -ali-
 
  Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
  Does any one knows a translation forBOOKMARK orBOOKMARK THIS
   PAGE in Persian?
  
  neshaane safheh or neshaane ketab?
  
  I don't know if such a phrase is actually in common use.  Reminds me
   of my highschool physics teacher trying to explain where the word
   shaar (a replacement for flux) came from.  After thinking about
   it, he said,  it comes from Farsie be pedar o madar.
  
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Re: Translation

2003-10-04 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Sat, 4 Oct 2003, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 On Sat, 2003-10-04 at 11:05, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
[snip my .02]
  So you mean ghaltak means abzaar-e ghalt-zadan??

 I'm sorry, but language is not that exact, neither I am an expert in
 these. ghaltak means abzaar-e ghalt-zan. neshaanak may mean
 abzaar-e neshaan-zan (not exactly, yes).

 Also, these suffixes do not exactly bring a meaning with themselves,
 contrary to what we've been learning in high school. The -ak in
 sorkhak and zardak is just a suffix that creates a noun out of an
 adjective. In ghaltak and probably kaardak, it just makes a tool out
 of something else. Just don't try to be productive in the old sense,
 trying to assign exact meanings to each postfix and prefix.

Well, you're probably right, but then the suffixes are going to
lose all their meaning as a suffix.  After a while there would be
no common sense between words ending with ak... (and yes, there
would be no suffix, some new words).

[snip again]
  Unfortunately I'm loosing my last hopes on them.  I can't fight
  for all these silly funny words (just a few of them are quoted):
 
* database - daadegaan

 The relationship of base and -gaan is existing, I guess -gaan
 should have been a widely used postfix in Pahlavi. paadegaan?

-gaan is not anything special, it's just aan for plural,
joined to a word ending with hah-e naamalfooz.  Just like
saadegaan.  So it means datas.  But again AFAIK data and
daade are both plurals.  Don't know about paadegaan.

* ftp - ghaap

 That's an abbreviation: FTP = gharaardaad-e enteghaal-e parvande:
 gheyn, alef, pe. If you have problems with abbreviations, don't
 use them.

And write gharaardaad-e enteghaal-e parvande everywhere?  I
like Omid Milani's transliteration for HTML as echtemel, and
XML as iksemel (I prefe eksemel myself though).

* redo - az no

 This is the translation of the Redo menu, not the action of
 redo-ing. I agree that it's not that good, but I've not seen many good
 ones. Your suggestion?

az no reminds me of reset in forms.  dobaare and tekraar
may have the same meaning as az no, but do it better, again
IMHO.

* scroll - navardidan!

 The problem? Your suggestion?

navardidan is completely another word, isn't?  It do not hold
the feeling of rolling in a single direction, and it contains a
sense of a challenge, that cannot be ignored.  My suggestion?
Good question.

  And their inconsistencies:
 
* interface - vaaset, miaanaa
* Graphical User Interface - miaanaa-ye ...
  (miana is the second choice for interface)

 There is still a debate going on over that. vaaset was already
 approved for a term in the Electricity Word-Choosing Group, but the
 Computer group wanted miaanaa. That is not finalized, so they are
 listing both candidates for feedback.

vaaset is so common.  The problem should be kind of Arabic vs
Ferdowsi. ;)

* output (device) - khorooji
  (Isn't khorooji also a noun in Persian?)

 It's *only* a noun in Persian, as far as I can tell. I'm not getting
 what you mean. Would you explain? From what I get, is that they are
 translating the output of a program as boroon-daad, but an output
 device as dastgaah-e khorooji.

Exactly.

  They never bothered themselves to identify nouns and verbs in
  their list.

 They do, in the final published list. They are assuming it's evident
 from the translation. But in this certain case, I agree that they have
 not translated output in the verb sense.

The problem is that, they are misusing their power to decide for
the language!  You and I could have been decide on many
technicall matters, and spread it all around the world by coding
that here and there.  But we have never done that so to decide
for others.  Better the propose words and wait some 5 or 10
years, and decide if that can be settled.  rayane is setteled
down.  But the way they do it, they force many bodies to follow
their word.

 roozbeh

behdad
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Re: Translation

2003-10-04 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Sat, 4 Oct 2003, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:

  vaaset is so common.  The problem should be kind of Arabic vs
  Ferdowsi. ;)

 I find this discussion very educational.  Isn't this problem easier to
 handle in Arabic than in Farsi?  From my limited knowledge of Arabic,
 it seem that, because Arabic's diction and vocabulary are in harmony
 with its grammar, inventing new words are a matter of straight forward
 application of existing rules; that is also exactly the reason why it is
 hard in Farsi.

Exactly, and that's why I don't like these using suffixes for any
random meaning.
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Re: Translation

2003-10-04 Thread Peyman
The problem of new word coinage is not because of
language components (affixes) although Persian has one
of the most productive word formation systems. The
problem for making new words in our language is lack
of simple verbs (as quoted by Dr. Bateni). We have
roughly 340 simple verbs 110 of which is active only.
We normally make compound verbs.
Contrary to Persian, Arabic has the most nonproductive
new word formation systems (but enriched semantics).
e.g. the beautiful word nAtarAvAyi in Persian
(impenetrability) has its equivalent in Arabic as a
sentence lA emkAna qAbeliyat attarashoh. The affixes
in Persian are the most powerful components in our
language.
If you are interested to know the problem you can read
the article FArsi zabAni aqim? by Dr. BAteni.
He is a genius who wrote about these problems 40 years
ago.

Peyman
--- Behdad Esfahbod [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Sat, 4 Oct 2003, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
 
   vaaset is so common.  The problem should be
 kind of Arabic vs
   Ferdowsi. ;)
 
  I find this discussion very educational.  Isn't
 this problem easier to
  handle in Arabic than in Farsi?  From my limited
 knowledge of Arabic,
  it seem that, because Arabic's diction and
 vocabulary are in harmony
  with its grammar, inventing new words are a matter
 of straight forward
  application of existing rules; that is also
 exactly the reason why it is
  hard in Farsi.
 
 Exactly, and that's why I don't like these using
 suffixes for any
 random meaning.
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