Re: FarsiWeb Digest, Vol 7, Issue 1

2003-12-06 Thread C Bobroff
 Perhaps no one knew the answer. Really.
 roozbeh

Oh!
I hadn't thought of that possibility.
-Connie
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Re: Le Monde diplomatique this time

2003-11-21 Thread C Bobroff
Hey Joe,
What were we supposed to be interested in here?  Is it the good news that
you have discovered the world's first Persian webpage with charset=utf-8
instead of charset=windows-1256 (those French are making great
improvements!)
Or did you want to point out those 2 dots we like to discuss?  Did you
want to complain they don't seem to know about ZWNJ?  Did you think that
since there's mention of Tel Aviv they might have read the magazines on
Persian webdev?
Or is it that you wanted to encourage the silent lurkers to participate
so you thought the Israeli-Palestinian conflict could rouse some healthy
discussion and from there, next stop is how to introduce Persian speakers
in Haifa to get rid of their Win9x and then take the idea to Iran?
Joe, it is truly YOU who should be called genius.  Let's trade names!

-Connie

 On Fri, 21 Nov 2003, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

 Mr Connie Genius,


 Got some juice for you.  Please go for this one:

 http://ir.mondediplo.com/article208.html


 Mr Joe Dumb

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Re: Le Monde diplomatique this time

2003-11-21 Thread C Bobroff
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, Mehran Mehr wrote:
 Connie Bobroff is an [Israelian] Jewish?

Nope.  I'm a pious mullah from Qazvin.

Sorry if you somehow understood something political in what was basically
a joke aimed at Joe.  (We need a little humor sometimes, you know.)

Anyhow, thanks for the reminder that others are also on this list
discussing Persian problems.  Somehow I forgot! Keep up the
helpful participation and the Yeh/Keheh problem will be solved soon!

-Connie
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Re: Le Monde diplomatique this time

2003-11-21 Thread C Bobroff
Well, I hereby ask
 you to contact them and resolve Persian issues including but not
 limited to those too balls, oops dots.

Jr Joe Jenius is a polo player?

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Re: Embeding farsi font for web pages

2003-10-24 Thread C Bobroff
Sadeq,
The secret is that the font must have  embedding permission enabled.
You can check permissions on the font with this free tool:
http://www.microsoft.com/typography/property/property.htm

The Farsiweb Koodak font will work although that is still under
construction.  I'm guessing Mehran's fonts mentioned earlier today will
also work and if so, that will be great since they are unicode-compliant.
Mehran?

I've successfully used Borna's fonts with Weft a long time ago:
http://www.bornaray.com/en_fonts.asp?fn=per_fontsrfn=en_fontsparent=fontslistGrand=Main

These fonts are not unicode-compliant but since you are embedding, as long
as you specify UTF-8, that should also work.

Of course Weft is only for WIndows and Internet Explorer. Also, if the
system administrator has configured the computer in such a way that
certain settings are forced on the user, then also Weft won't work.
However, Weft may be one solution to insure the user sees YOUR font since,
as we've been discussing of late, one font name can be a zillion different
fonts.

-Connie
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Re: Font Problem (fwd)

2003-10-23 Thread C Bobroff
 I have heared that incompatibility with unicode in such fonts cause these
 problem.

Payam,
I don't think it's related to incompatibility with unicode. I have XP and
after all the critical updates all my Persian fonts are working fine.
Hopefully you can just download and install the fonts again.
-Connie
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Re: Font Problem (fwd)

2003-10-23 Thread C Bobroff
 You goofed Connie.  Forgot that there are zillions of different
 versions of those fonts?

Beggin' your pardon but I did not goof!
How could I possibly forget there are zillions of different versions?!
However, they all have one thing in common and that is that they aren't
unicode compliant and that was the expressed concern.
-Connie
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Re: [PersianComputing] Re: SOLVED: Button translation

2003-10-20 Thread C Bobroff
  Missing anything?
Behdad,
I think it's best we leave the high-faluttin grammatical stuff like
infinitive and imperative to Amr and Zayd :)

The person who wrote that article definitely didn't have Persian in mind.
In Persian there is much greater overlap in both form and function than
English.  Furthermore, there are an awful
lot of modern compound verbs in Persian where the first element is a noun
or adjective which you may want to treat differently than one-word verbs.

A button with to print or printing in English is not helpful, that's
why the author specified *imperative* but he meant you should put a
meaningful word so that the user not hesitate at all.

For one-word verbs, one often sees the infinitive functioning as
imperative, for example ferestadan and for compound verbs, one often
sees just the noun such as chap.  If someone is suggesting chap
kardan, it is probably in hopes of making one rule for all verbs and
ruling out ALL chances of making the user hesitate as the article said.
I personally think chap ( possibly accompanied by an attractive icon)
is great!
I think we can guarantee the true imperative forms don't have a chance in
the discussion: chap kon (sounds like Mawlavi!)
and chap konid (school teacher??) although they are best in English.

Same thing with the bookmark issue earlier. Is it really helpful to
go to the ends of the earth looking for the perfect translation of some
cute expression in English of a browser specific term? You are forcing the
user to translate back into English instead of giving some idea of what
that button actually does.  That is fine if the user already knows
English and is familiar with the concept and the button is more
decorative than functional.  To be fair, I think at least one person
suggested something which came closer to conveying the actually meaning.
(I wasn't paying too much attention and was only glad the original poster
didn't ask how to translate spam!)

-Connie

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Re: FarsiWeb Digest, Vol 4, Issue 9

2003-09-30 Thread C Bobroff
 On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 16:38, Behnam wrote:
  But in the meantime, do you know where is the small Alef for
  putting on the Final Yeh (in hattaa for example) or Farsi Hamza
  (Yeh-e-raabet) that we put on the final Heh in this standard layout? I
  couldn't find them anywhere.

For future reference, in Unicode parlance, they call these ARABIC LETTER
SUPERSCRIPT ALIF U+0670 and Arabic Hamza Above U+0654.

They are not on the Farsi Keyboard that ships with Win2000 and WinXP
however it is easy enough to map them to the keyboard manually in Word.

If you get Farsiweb's experimental keyboard or Peter Hauer's Keyman
keyboard (search the archives for both), you
will find both characters conveniently located on the keyboard.

The problem as always is the font. For web use, almost everyone is using
the Tahoma font which contains both characters (as well as the Persian Yeh
and the Persian Kaf). Unfortunately, neither character positions very
nicely and you probably won't want to use them when you see what they look
like in action! If for non-web use, well, there are many Persian fonts
around hacked for computer use without the original designer's permission
(becoming a hot topic nowadays!) and you can usually find the heh+hamzeh
hacked to the tah marbuta and as for the alif, I recommend a fine-tipped
felt pen or Photoshop!

There are various other ingenious workarounds, of course.

I don't know what the situation is with Macs where the main problem seems
to stem from  not enough users doing Persian in order to provide feedback
and mutual support.

-Connie
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Re: Unicode in new IRNA site

2003-08-27 Thread C Bobroff
 You know, everybody who's caring and sane enough to proofread, makes
 sure these don't appear on paper (or sometimes on the computer screen),
 but again, not all of these people care what it is that's stored in
 their computers.

On the other hand, how much time it looks like they put into the
proofreading  may be a convenient way to tell if the content is
worth reading!

By the way, I just visited the BBC Persian site. In one article they were
using the Arabic Kaf and in another the Persian Keheh. That would explain
the conflicting reports on the Yeh. Looks like they have more than one
typist on the staff.

-Connie

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Re: Unicode in new IRNA site

2003-08-27 Thread C Bobroff
  By the way, I just visited the BBC Persian site. In one article they were
  using the Arabic Kaf and in another the Persian Keheh.

 It should be called the Persian Kaf. Keheh is just a random identifier,
 but the best available since it's the Unicode name. So, either Persian
 Kaf or Keheh in my opinion. And the second only for people who
 understand Unispeak.

sigh
I had written Keheh but then went back and added Persian to be
clearer...
In any case, whatever you call it, they were using the Arabic counterpart.
-Connie

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Re: Unicode in new IRNA site

2003-08-26 Thread C Bobroff
 They do get under the skin, yes, but it's a little worse than that if
 you start seeing the two little dots everyday on announcements,
 printouts, ads, ... It will get to your {maghz-e ostekhaan}.

Oh dear! You sound like an advanced case. I will schedule you for a
bone-marrow transplant right away.

Just don't tell me the calligraphers have also joined the band-wagon and
are now putting the dots!

-Connie

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Re: Unicode in new IRNA site

2003-08-24 Thread C Bobroff
 Behdad's Law: Connie is an optimist.
If you please! You need to trust Mr. Connie Genius on this one and keep
the faith. This is just a case of public awareness. As long as you don't
notice those dots, everything is blissful. Maybe they are just stray
marks? Maybe your screen just needs cleaning? But then once you do notice,
then you REALLY notice. Those two little dots get under your skin and it
starts to fester. You start to ONLY see the dots and the rest of the
content becomes a blur. Insanity is imminent. The only solution: Immediate
surgical removal of the dots using the latest Search/Replace technology.
-Connie

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Re: Unicode in new IRNA site

2003-08-22 Thread C Bobroff
 ... so many
 sites are using wrong characters. It certainly affects the search
 engines.

Hehe. The humans don't seem to notice but the search engines balk. Seems
like it should be the reverse!

By the way, this is yet another reason I offer up thanks to Roozbeh,
Behnam (and others) for the new Persian keyboard as the Arabic Yeh is
only a convenient Shift key away and makes for much more fruitful Google
searches!

-Connie


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Re: Unicode in new IRNA site

2003-08-22 Thread C Bobroff
  What should we do about this?
Go stand up on your roof and shout:
The fonts have been repaired! It's now ok to use Arabic Letter Farsi Yeh
U+06CC!!

But as far as I know, BBC has never been one of the offenders although I'm
too lazy at the moment to check that and the other site  mentioned
earlier.  Anyhow, the default fontsize is usually too small to even see
those nasty dots not to mention the Yeh itself.

Why don't you do a survey and check some sites today and then check
back again in a couple of months.  Chances are, your having started this
thread (and the one last week) will have served as a wake-up call. Perhaps
that's all that was needed!

-Connie

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Re: [PersianComputing] Koodak font: alpha release

2003-08-07 Thread C Bobroff
There is already a font called Koodak. Won't users (and their computers)
have a problem when they THINK they are seeing this font but it's really
the old one? It won't occur to them to download the new one.

-Connie

On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 As part of a set of TTF fonts we are planning to release in
 100% Unicode-compatible format, we are happy to release our first font,
 Koodak.  This font is in alpha status, and we need your help in order to
 fix possible bugs.  Installation instructions are at the end of this
 notice.

 The font itself, is available from:

http://www.farsiweb.info/font/koodak.zip

 You can report bugs to:

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Please note that we are only claiming support for Red Hat Linux 8.0 and
 9 (and future releases) and Microsoft Windows 2000 and XP (and future
 versions).  The fonts may work on other operating systems or platforms,
 but we have no plan to test or support them (although we will be very
 happy to hear about possible bugs).  Also, note that sometimes the bug
 is in the OS or the software, not in the font: one can't fix a buggy
 software by changing a font.

 These are the known bugs that we are planning to fix in later versions:

   * The following glyphs are not supported: Rial sign, Arabic-style
 digit four, Arabic-style digit six, Oranate parentheses.
   * Tashdid ligatures (Tashdid+Fathe, ...) do not work as supposed.
   * Positioning of E'raabs is not implemented (so Kasra is too low for
 some characters).
   * Base letter+Mark ligatures (He+Hamze, Alef+Tanvin) are not
 implemented.

 Important licensing information: This font is based on 'Bitstream Vera'
 and the publicly-available 'Koodak' font. Because of the certain
 restrictions in those, you are limited in what you can do with this
 font. This is only true for this alpha release, and the final licensing
 may be different:

   1. You may only distribute this font as is, without any change. You
  may NOT change the font, and you may NOT rename the font.

   2. You are allowed to redistribute this font gratis (by itself or as
  part of a package), but you may NOT sell this font by itself or as
  a part of a fonts-only package). But you are allowed to sell it
  together with some computer software.

 For more specific details, please see the 'licensing' information in the
 font itself.

 Installation instructions for Red Hat Linux 8.0 and 9:

   1. unzip koodak.zip
   2. mkdir -p ~/.fonts
   3. cp -bf koodak.ttf ~/.fonts
   4. fc-cache ~/.fonts

 Installation instructions for MS Windows 2000 and XP:

   1. Unzip the koodak.zip file.
   2. Go to Control Panel - Fonts.
   3. Delete all copies of any font you may have installed on your system
  named 'Koodak', 'Koodak Bold', ...
   4. Install the 'Koodak' font from the menu.

 Roozbeh Pournader,
 for the FarsiWeb Project Group


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RE: [farsiweb] New keyboard layout for Windows

2003-06-14 Thread C Bobroff
 No, no Nastaliq font. It's not the default for Persian anymore. People
 have a hard time reading Nastaliq for anything longer than a few words.

OK, bye-bye Nastaliq for Persian.

But I mean Persian Naskh or Naskhi as opposed to Arabic Naskh. I wish
there were a precise term to differentiate the two. And I don't know what
my newbies are going to do when I tell them to type in MS Uighur or
Traffic for that modern Persian look! Crazy!

-Connie

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[farsiweb] Re: [PersianComputing] Persian Keyboard Layout Preview

2003-06-13 Thread C Bobroff
  What is the character on alt+control+d?
 It's the Arabic Alef Maksura. For cases you just need a dandaane in the
 middle of a word. Almost always Koranic quotes.

I also have only heard of Alif Maksura used in Arabic only in Final
position, never in initial, medial or isolated.

Please give an example of dandaane which must be a Persian invention in
which case why don't you use Persian Yeh?

(I haven't yet gotten around to nagging for all the letters to be
made without dots
as used by the poets...maybe this will come in handy for that!)

  Or maybe that's supposed to be the tatweel??
 No, Tatweel is at Shift+-.
Oh, sorry. I didn't see it but then, I've never used it.


 We use it under Yeh sometimes, to mention that this Yeh has an /i:/ sound,
 and not an /ej/ sound.
Yes, that's exactly the Pakistani (and Indian) usage I've seen.

The usage is usually educational or Koranic.
I can't think where in the Koran. If you think of an example, let me know.
Of course, there will always be someone, somewhere who uses it so always
best to keep it around since it doesn't cost anything!

-Connie

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Re: [farsiweb] Re: [PersianComputing] Persian Keyboard Layout Preview

2003-06-13 Thread C Bobroff
 Who are you addressing here? A fontmaker that is planning to support the
 whole Unicode Arabic range? She/he will definitely support them. But a
 fontmaker who is only interested in one language? Why in hell should
 she/he support them?

Hey, it's the Persian poets who liked to engage in tajnis.

-Connie

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Re: [farsiweb] Re: [PersianComputing] Persian Keyboard Layout Preview

2003-06-13 Thread C Bobroff
 What if a fontmaker doesn't care about all those linguistics-only needs,
 and wants to give his mates just some support for their language proper,
 as used in modern times, and only in official letters?

Good point.  Glad I'm keeping my jpeg-making software handy.

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RE: [farsiweb] Re: [PersianComputing] Persian Keyboard Layout Preview

2003-06-13 Thread C Bobroff
 (This is why I found the dotless initial form on your draft
 keyboard difficult to interpret.)

Oh! Is THAT what that was.

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RE: [farsiweb] Re: [PersianComputing] Persian Keyboard Layout Preview

2003-06-13 Thread C Bobroff
 An exhausted roozbeh

An exhausted but euphoric Roozbeh?
Admit it, you're enjoying every minute!

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RE: [farsiweb] Re: [PersianComputing] Persian Keyboard Layout Preview

2003-06-13 Thread C Bobroff
 The visa won't get ready until Monday morning either.

Just in case the visa doesn't come Monday, you might consider making a
transliterated keyboard layout for those occasional Persian typists used
to the English keyboard.
just a subtle hint and if you need more ideas of how to spend the long
hours, I got 'em!

-Connie

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RE: [farsiweb] Re: [PersianComputing] Persian Keyboard Layout Preview

2003-06-13 Thread C Bobroff
 The visa won't get ready until Monday morning either. So I'm getting more
 frustrated, and I stick more to work. The whole reason I came to office
 today was to read possible emails on what happened with the visa.

No, I've alerted all the embassies of the world not to issue you any more
visas for conferences.  Look how much we all have  profited from
the fruits of your visa frustations of the past few days--a very nice
keyboard, installation instructions + documentatin and so many questions
answered! Your sacrifice is GREATLY appreciated!

-Connie

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RE: [farsiweb] Re: [PersianComputing] Persian Keyboard Layout Preview

2003-06-13 Thread C Bobroff
  If you mean
 the software, it took about half an hour or a little more because of the
 nice MS tool for its creation.

Yes, that's what I meant and it took YOU half an hour but would have taken
me and the silent lurkers weeks or possibly never so thank you.
And did I hear you say, nice MS tool? Hmmm



 Oh, while we're at it, would you tell your MS friends to all a ZWNJ on
 Shift+Space with their tool? I went through many tricks to get it done,
 but the keyboard compiler catches me at the final second always.

I already told my friends at MS!

But the NICE TOOL doesn't recognize ZWJ or ZWNJ to be spaces.  (The space
bar is only for spacing characters.) Maybe your friends at Unicode haven't
properly labelled it so the NICE TOOL can tell what it is??

-Connie

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Re: [PersianComputing] RE: [farsiweb] New keyboard layout for Windows

2003-06-13 Thread C Bobroff
  I may help you with information from ALA-LC (American Library
  Association/Library of Congress) containing exact lists of characters,
  alongside with standard transliterations, for all languages you are
  interested in.

For whatever they're worth, they're here as PDF files:

http://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/roman.html

-Connie

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[farsiweb] Re: [PersianComputing] Persian Keyboard Layout Preview

2003-06-12 Thread C Bobroff
 Attached file [.pdf] is preview of New Persian Keyboard layout preview.

Thanks.  That's very helpful. Must have taken quite some time to make!

What is the character on alt+control+d ? It's putting me in footnote mode.
Possibly related to the fact I don't have MS Arial Unicode (or whatever
it's now called) installed?? Or maybe that's supposed to be the tatweel??

And forgive my ignorance but when do you use subscript alif? I've only
used it in Pakistani contexts.

And by the way, is anyone else using WinXP/OfficeXP not able to
find/replace short vowels by themselves? It only seems to work when
combined with another letter.

Thanks again,

-Connie

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RE: [farsiweb] New keyboard layout for Windows

2003-06-12 Thread C Bobroff
  I am not quite sure in which context standalone
 versions of maddah, hamzah above and hamzah below are used, but assume
 they are there because they are in the Unicode standard.

In a textbook, you might want to say, This here is a maddah.  In the
past, I wanted to show what a superscript alif compared to fatha looks
like and was not able to

-Connie


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RE: [farsiweb] New keyboard layout for Windows

2003-06-12 Thread C Bobroff
 You should put them either over a space, or a Tatweel (U+0640, the base
 line extender that looks like a '_').


Just over a space is fine but the font should be able to render it and the
fontmakers don't always know what all people may want to type.  If the
fontmakers see it's a character on the keyboard, they might make an
isolated form.  Then if the user can type anything and everything desired,
great stuff can be written in Persian and we can stop this jpeg/gif/latin
transliteration business! Best to make it as easy as possible to type
everything!

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RE: [farsiweb] New keyboard layout for Windows

2003-06-12 Thread C Bobroff
 Depends on how you define easy. Try!

If you don't redefine your concept of easy, people are going to say it's
too hard to bother with this script and that's why they advocate
romanizing Persian.

Do you know just to enable FA input on a Windows machine is asking too
much for newbies? You should see the emails filled with anguish I get.
Your instructions are no good! The farsi editor isn't downloading, etc.
And these newbies are the same ones most apt to have great content worthy
of the technology too but they just get too frustrated at the
word-processing stage and give up.

I was even joking with someone at MS that a first-time user should be able
to sit down at the comptuer and say, Please activate Persian and
automatically FA will be enabled, Word will fire up, nastaliq font at
reasonable fontsize selected and RTL/right-aligned  mode on and on-screen
keyboad at your service!

Even this probably won't be sufficient...

-Connie

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[farsiweb]Re: [PersianComputing] Unicode character names (was Re: UnicodeAdvertisement)

2003-04-05 Thread C Bobroff
  and a requirement of ISO
 that the names stay the same forever, even if mistakes are found in them.
 Standards need to guarantee stabilities to some degree in order to be
 implemented, and character names looked one of the promising cases.

I see now! Thank you once again for the enlightenment.  I only wish I'd
asked earlier.

-Connie

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Re: [farsiweb]YEH problem decision

2003-03-14 Thread C Bobroff
On Sat, 15 Mar 2003, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
 There is Times New Roman there. The file is named 'times32.exe'. I guess
 you missed it.

I didn't *miss* it. I thought it was a different font. I stand corrected.
You're also right that it was on the free downloads page which can still
be viewed here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20020206194652/www.microsoft.com/typography/fontpack/default.htm


 The guys at MS just don't remember.
Now I will remind them and mention they should let me put a copy on my
website for distribution as the license clearly states. The soureforge
site is just too newbie-unfriendly!

 IIRC, fonts like 'Arabic Transparent' are not in good shape for XP.
Oh! I took one look at that one and fled. Got enough problems with the
core fonts.
If you have a list of problems though, I'll be sure to pass it along.


  Sometimes,
 when Paul got tired of me nagging, he just asked a question in return: Do
 you have a valid license for the product?
Delightful!
Then just let me know and I'll handle the nagging. That's one thing I'm
good at! (Actually I'm thinking I should get Paul to fly you in to the
campus for the afternoon...you could have a regular bug-fixing spree!)


  should be very easy.
LOL! Your sense of humor becomes more refined as the night wears on.  A
regal treat awaits the silent lurkers who are just now getting out of bed.

-Connie

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[farsiweb]Some sorting problems

2002-06-23 Thread C Bobroff

 2. The Waw(U-0648) is after the 'Heh' (U-0647).

  I have no idea for the second
 problem.


Thanks for posting this problem! I have been wondering
what effect the fact that the Arabic and Persian alphabets
have different ORDER of letters would have on all this.
Now I got my answer! (And of course, as usual can not
be helpful in solving the technical problem...)
-Connie

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Re: [farsiweb]heh + hamzeh

2002-06-03 Thread C Bobroff

 not specify anything about broken fonts, or fonts that are not suitable
 for some purpose or other.
I was checking it with Arial MS Unicode, Tahoma.


 solution, if it's non-stnadard. After all, Persian support is far from
 complete and stable in Windows and Internet Explorer.
Yes, I can only get it to work if these 2 conditions are met.
Well, I'm glad you say it's far from complete. I would hate to
think Persian has to remove this one character from circulation just
because  at this moment in time, the technology is not up to
dealing with it. I hope some unemployed genius who has been alerted
to the problem following this discussion or later finds it in
the archives will figure it out!

 These fonts are more than non-standard. They use U+0629 for it, which
 belongs to TEH MARBUTA. No surprise with a more standard font you see it
 that way.
Hmm. I didn't know that.  How did this situation come to pass? I have
been wondering all this time since teh marbuta is also used in
Persian, why this could be when there are plenty of free keys available.
Who started this? Do you know anything of the history of these fonts.


 I don't know. You have a problem NOW, I was discussing the problem of
ok. Sorry if I misunderstood. It did appear to me that people involved
in the technical issues thought that this character is no longer used
therefore the solution was to get rid of it and the technical
challenges it poses. I hope you can see how I could have been led
to think this!

Thanks for generously responding,
Connie

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Re: [farsiweb]heh + hamzeh

2002-06-02 Thread C Bobroff

 thing. He may look at the charts, and he will either choose U+06D5, or
 U+0647, U+0645 (HEH, HAMZA ABOVE),
I guess you mean U+0654. In any case, neither
is acceptable. The hamzeh ends up really high above the heh depending on
the font.

 The first time I found this, I asked Unicode people for changing the
 decomposition for U+06C0. I then found that there is a stability policy
 about these, and that they have had their own reasons for selecting this
 decomposition. After that, I asked them to remove the mention of Persian
 from the comments for this character.
Well, I'm unable to understand all this and I guess I'm wasting your
time which was not my intention.

If you have any suggestion of how I can make a web page with the character
heh+hamzeh, please let me know. I can type it very nicely in any of the
usual Persian fonts (nazanin, roya, koodak, etc) but it comes out as teh
marbuta on a computer without these fonts installed and for which Times
New Roman is the default browser font. Of course, even if the
TNR font adds this character today, it will be years before everyone
has downloaded the updated version. (Not to mention how will I
type a teh marbuta if heh+hamzeh and teh marbuta are mutually exclusive?)


Unless you can give some other advice, I think I'll just have to
find a way to embed a font with this character on my webpage. Maybe
even this won't work. ???

Thanks,
Connie

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[farsiweb]heh + hamze

2002-05-26 Thread C Bobroff

  In the English language, this
 glottal stop (or rather plosive) occurs only at the beginning of words which
 begin with a vowel, like {a,e,i,o,u}, therefore it is not represented by a
 separate character.
Check out a word like butter:
Subcontinental pronunciation: battar
North American pronunciation: baDar
British pronunciation: ba'ar (could be written nicely with a hamze in the
middle! But luckily we've all agreed to write it as butter.

On the other hand, color and colour and many more examples exist side
by side in the world.

Persian words also have more than one spelling per word. The makers of
searchable databases/dictionaries will just have to make sure to
include all the variants.

 because it can also occur in the middle and at the end of words, it needs to
 be represented by a special character of its own.
Persian, like English writing system is not phonetic. The point here is
not to develop a transliteration system for Persian or to discuss whether
the spelling of Persian words is logical (it's not!).
There is a relationship in Persian between yeh and hamze.
Check out the way you pronounce these words first in slow speech, then
again in fast speech: (try not to think about the writing)
sAat hour
xAen traitor
taqAod retirement
moallem teacher
zaif weak
pambei of cotton

Now this group:
pAin below
Aine mirror
tanhAi loneliness
masnui artificial

And this group:
lAeq worthy
qAeb absent
hqAeq truths

(I didn't make these up. THey're standard in this sort of discussion.)

Depending on  your dialect and whether you're saying them fast or slow,
you'll get different results, sometimes a /y/=yeh, or /'/=glottal stop,
or just a brief pause. And there are even sub-categories of these three.


 used to represent a glottal stop (or plosive) at all, but by a centuries old
 convention it is used to represent the Farsi ezafeh, when it follows the
 letter heh. That convention has served the language adequately for
 centuries, and one does not simply change a centuries old convention by an
 arbitrary decision.
Absolutely.  It is a done deal.

---
 the same in Farsi and Arabic. For example, in Farsi we use a shape
 dandaneh for hamza in pangu'an which would be a shape like vav
 if we had used the Arabic style.
I think that (nicely) reflects that Persian has borrowed the word from
French and Arabic from English which have 2 completely different
pronunciations.

Well, I hope the silent lurkers are enjoying the digressions. Please
forgive but I'm extremely frustrated that I can't type certain
words that have existed in a certain writing system for so many hundreds
of years...
-Connie

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Re: [farsiweb] NESF font

2002-05-14 Thread C Bobroff

 We lack the resources for hinting and drawing bitmaps for all of those.
 But we would love any contribution. Just wait for the fonts to be
 released.

Thanks Roozbeh. I didn't mean to sound (too) greedy and impatient!

I just wanted to make sure you know there really is a need for some of
the rarer characters.  Remember when I  was asking some time ago about
the heh +yeh as one character? Well, I got a lot of personal emails
about that and people were actually trying to tell me that that character
is no longer used in the modern writing system! Now if folks think that
about the heh +yeh, then what is the fate of something like the
superscript alif and others?! I think these characters shouldn't
be doomed to extinction in the age of computers, right?!

Now if you need resources, you have to be specific because I'm sure there
are a lot of people out there in net land that would love to help you but
don't know how.  Like, if you need money, tell them where to send their
checks, if you need software, say what it is, if you need technical info,
state the problem and someone can get the help from one of the many very
helpful forums out there. (But don't ask me for any of these! I'm not
computer savvy and am a poor student and all you folks that send me your
resumes and so forth every time I post a simple computing question to this
group, beware, I can't give you a job and am in fact extremely poor!)

One other thing occured to me. THere are already a lot of Persian fonts
out there. Is there any way you can contact the people who have made
them and just modify them rather than start from scratch?  I know this
may not be practical, just a thought from someone who has no clue
about font-making

Again, thanks for all your hard work,
-Connie

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[farsiweb] weft

2002-04-15 Thread C Bobroff

Thanks to Arash and Omid for your responses. I would love to get
this working...

 dependent, not because it is too complicated, but because the font
 doesn't allow embeding.
I also think so and although Weft tells you whether embedding is
permissible for each font on your webpage, it doesn't state
if the vendor of the font has disabled embedding intentionally
or just inadvertantly caused it. I see that some fonts simply
don't embed at all, while others (Nazanin) embed but end up
looking different than normal while others  (Koodak) do work ok.

In any case, I have written to the developer and I'll post any
info I get in case others are interested.
Besides Weft, I've also discovered another commercial product
which is advertised as being better than Weft:
http://fairy.em2-solutions.com/main.html


 But is the WEFT way really necessary today? Or is it because of the
 different shapes that you need to use WEFT?
Well, the target users of my webpage will be people who don't have
any Persian fonts on their computer and can not/will not install one so
they will end up seeing my page in (some version of)Times New Roman.
Besides
the not-as-nice appearance of TimesNR, the character heh + yeh
seems to come out as ta marbuta.

In case anyone doesn't know, there is also a way to embed fonts in Word
docs (Word2002 and some earlier versions): Tools--options--save--embed
true type fonts. This is a convenient way to check if fonts are embeddable
without having to use Weft which takes a little more time/trouble.



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