Re: Fedora Basic End User Rollout Support Operation

2010-01-04 Thread Joel Rees 


On Jan 2, 2010, at 4:33 AM, Robert E. Martin, VCM Network wrote:

[...] Fedora has many advantages, but in its raw state it is not  
very user friendly.


Actually, in its current state, it is very user friendly to those not  
steeped in the One True Microsoft Way.


Except for system upgrades, and the high churn rate.
I am looking to talk to someone who knows has to create a user  
friendly approach to Linux that can be effectively pitched to the  
consumer and SMB market.


Would it be out of place for me to suggest that the "user friendly  
approach" may be more of an exercise in providing a Rosetta Stone, of  
sorts, to help people familiar with the Microsoft (cough) Way to  
figure out what they really wanted to do and what the tools to use  
are called?


If you're looking for a project that throws an MSWindows veneer over  
a Linux distribution, such do exist, at some times and in some  
places. I forget what any of them have been called, though. Maybe  
someone else here remembers?
My business model will simply be to set-up, configure systems,  
assist with package application selections and train this market  
for competitive price.  Can someone point me to the right person or  
people who are doing it or potentially have the know-how?


centos.org has been mentioned. Have you talked to the people at Red  
Hat? (You know, the ones who sponsor the Fedora Project.)


BTW, I agree with several who have suggested that Fedora is not  
appropriate. It's kind of a playground for geeks and hobbyists, as  
well as a testing ground for some of Red Hat's enterprise products.  
It can be induced to work for small businesses, but I think the word  
you want to hear about that is "customized". By which I mean you have  
people building true custom systems. (And I don't mean packages  
customized to a market niche. I do not mean packages, at all.)


And, of course, there are Ubuntu and other non-Red Hat distributions  
that have slightly different focus.


Joel Rees, free-associating a little

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Re: Fedora Basic End User Rollout Support Operation

2010-01-02 Thread Robert E. Martin, VCM Network 
I understand.

On Sat, 2010-01-02 at 19:19 +, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> On Sunday 03 January 2010 00:12:03 Robert E. Martin, VCM Network wrote:
> > I am somewhat confused.  I thought that as an open sourced OS, it was a
> >  free license, which included the applications in the repositories.  What
> >  am I missing?
> 
> You are missing the distinction between official Fedora repositories and 
> third 
> party repositories.
> 
> If you stick to the software present only in the official repositories, then 
> yes, it's all ok, free, no problems with licenses, patents, etc... However, 
> this also means that some otherwise typical desktop functionality will be 
> missing --- no playing of .mp3 files and divx movies, among other things.
> 
> This extra functionality can be enabled by installing software from third 
> party repositories, such as rpmfusion and livna. But that also means that 
> legality and licensing stuff will become problematic, depending on what 
> exactly 
> you have installed and what are the laws of the country you live in.
> 
> HTH, :-)
> Marko
> 
> 


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Re: Fedora Basic End User Rollout Support Operation

2010-01-02 Thread Mail Lists 
On 01/02/2010 02:19 PM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
missing --- no playing of .mp3 files and divx movies, among other things.
> 
> This extra functionality can be enabled by installing software from third 
> party repositories, such as rpmfusion and livna. But that also means that 
> legality and licensing stuff will become problematic, depending on what 
> exactly 
> you have installed and what are the laws of the country you live in.
> 
> HTH, :-)
> Marko
> 


 If there is a business need - business have no problem paying for
appropriate licenses if they can be purchased - whether for mp3 or other.

  Tho why most business would care about mp3 or divx is beyond me ..
those that do care have a solution already - Mr Main St or small 400
employee company cares about the tools they need (whether its accounting
software, medical management software, mathematica, or Office
Productivity tools etc) - and many are available and many are not free
- and that is just fine too.

  Most companies in my business (large) are huge users of linux already
and are quite happy purchasing software (and/or support) they need. They
do/did on windows too .. and for MS Office .. etc etc.

  Business' care about solutions - cost effective yes, but solutions. So
what is the problem you're trying to solve - how does linux and addons
(pay or otherwise) solve that better than alternatives.


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Re: Fedora Basic End User Rollout Support Operation

2010-01-02 Thread Bruno Wolff III 
On Sat, Jan 02, 2010 at 18:12:03 -0600,
  "Robert E. Martin, VCM Network"  wrote:
> I am somewhat confused.  I thought that as an open sourced OS, it was a free
> license, which included the applications in the repositories.  What am I
> missing?

Some things are supported by free software but are covered by patents. So
while this software can be used in some places, it can not in others. In
particular the US currently recognizes software patents. Fedora does not
include software that is know to be covered by software patents where there
isn't a license to allow for free (in cost) use. This mostly impacts audio
and video codecs. The RPM Fusion repo provides software for a number of
important codec, but you aren't allowed to use the software in the US without
a license agreement from the patent holder. There are ways to get software
that comes with such a license, but you need to get it from someplace other
than Fedora. In contrast Ubuntu has deals where it can distribute some software
which supports codecs covered by patents that Fedora can't. If the tasks you
plan to do include playing audio or video that uses nonfree codecs, that would
make Ubuntu more attractive to you.

Another case is software that is banned in the US. For example if you want to
play standard DVDs, you need to be able to decyrpt them. The encryption in
combination with the DMCA provide a way for a cartel of movie producers to
control the features of DVD players. (For example to prevent people from making
backup copies in order to force people to re-buy movies at full price rather
than for the cost of media. Or to prevent people from format shifting to force
people to re-buy movies for each device (for example iPODs) they own. Because
unsanctioned DVD players that decrypt normal DVDs are considered circumvention
devices, they are illegal to use or distribute in the US.

If you stick to the normal Fedora repositories (NOT RPM Fusion or Livna) you
will be OK license-wise, but may not have some functionallity you need. (In
which case you will need to get that functionallity from outside of Fedora.)

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Re: Fedora Basic End User Rollout Support Operation

2010-01-02 Thread Marko Vojinovic 
On Sunday 03 January 2010 00:12:03 Robert E. Martin, VCM Network wrote:
> I am somewhat confused.  I thought that as an open sourced OS, it was a
>  free license, which included the applications in the repositories.  What
>  am I missing?

You are missing the distinction between official Fedora repositories and third 
party repositories.

If you stick to the software present only in the official repositories, then 
yes, it's all ok, free, no problems with licenses, patents, etc... However, 
this also means that some otherwise typical desktop functionality will be 
missing --- no playing of .mp3 files and divx movies, among other things.

This extra functionality can be enabled by installing software from third 
party repositories, such as rpmfusion and livna. But that also means that 
legality and licensing stuff will become problematic, depending on what exactly 
you have installed and what are the laws of the country you live in.

HTH, :-)
Marko

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RE: Fedora Basic End User Rollout Support Operation

2010-01-02 Thread Robert E. Martin, VCM Network 
I am somewhat confused.  I thought that as an open sourced OS, it was a free
license, which included the applications in the repositories.  What am I
missing?


Robert E. Martin, President & CEO
1325 E. 52nd Street
Chicago, IL 60615
Phone: (312) 324-0049
Email: [email protected]
Website: www.vcmnetwork.com

-Original Message-
From: Bruno Wolff III [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 10:14 AM
To: Craig White
Cc: Community assistance, encouragement, and advice for using Fedora.
Subject: Re: Fedora Basic End User Rollout Support Operation

On Sat, Jan 02, 2010 at 05:09:21 -0700,
  Craig White  wrote:
> Actually, I found these to be rather easy to handle when I set up my own
> repositories using mrepo and each computer was installed via kickstart
> which configured it to use the local repo(s) which also included some of
> the then Livna (now rpmfusion) in a special repo which also included
> Adobe packages.

The problem isn't easy of use, its risking your clients getting sued for
practicing a patent without licensing it. And libdvdcss subjects you to
potential criminal liability. (And not just your clients, trafficing in
circumvention tools is a crime as well as using them in some juristictions.)

While it's likely a home user would be overlooked, if you start doing this
stuff for busniesses on a medium to large scale, you may draw some attention
to yourself.



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Re: Fedora Basic End User Rollout Support Operation

2010-01-02 Thread Bruno Wolff III 
On Sat, Jan 02, 2010 at 05:09:21 -0700,
  Craig White  wrote:
> Actually, I found these to be rather easy to handle when I set up my own
> repositories using mrepo and each computer was installed via kickstart
> which configured it to use the local repo(s) which also included some of
> the then Livna (now rpmfusion) in a special repo which also included
> Adobe packages.

The problem isn't easy of use, its risking your clients getting sued for
practicing a patent without licensing it. And libdvdcss subjects you to
potential criminal liability. (And not just your clients, trafficing in
circumvention tools is a crime as well as using them in some juristictions.)

While it's likely a home user would be overlooked, if you start doing this
stuff for busniesses on a medium to large scale, you may draw some attention
to yourself.

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RE: Fedora Basic End User Rollout Support Operation

2010-01-02 Thread Robert E. Martin, VCM Network 
Thanks for the response.


Robert E. Martin, President & CEO
1325 E. 52nd Street
Chicago, IL 60615
Phone: (312) 324-0049
Email: [email protected]
Website: www.vcmnetwork.com

-Original Message-
From: Frank Murphy (Frankly3D) [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 4:20 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Fedora Basic End User Rollout Support Operation

On 02/01/10 07:27, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 01, 2010 at 13:33:24 -0600,
--snipped--

> I don't think you want to do this based on Fedora. The rate of change is
> very high. Have you looked at Ubuntu LTS distros to see how those would
> work for you intended market?

CentOS may also be thought of here. as both a Desktop and Server.

> 
> Another issue for Fedora is that it doesn't provide some software
(particularly
> media codecs) because of software patents. If you are talking about
> implenting this plan in the US, getting additional Fedora compatible
software
> from RPM Fusion (that is blocked from Fedor abecause of software patents)
is
> going to be legally risky.
> 

Maybe go the Fluendo way to be covered?


-- 
Regards,

Frank Murphy
UTF_8 Encoded.



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Re: Fedora Basic End User Rollout Support Operation

2010-01-02 Thread Craig White 
On Sat, 2010-01-02 at 01:27 -0600, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 01, 2010 at 13:33:24 -0600,
> > 
> > The hurdle is that Linux usage is very foreign to the average consumer and
> > SMB.  Linux is an entirely different system to navigate and administrate.
> > The layout, description and deployment of applications is in whole different
> > paradigm.  Fedora has many advantages, but in its raw state it is not very
> > user friendly.  I am looking to talk to someone who knows has to create a
> > user friendly approach to Linux that can be effectively pitched to the
> > consumer and SMB market.  My business model will simply be to set-up,
> > configure systems, assist with package application selections and train this
> > market for competitive price.  Can someone point me to the right person or
> > people who are doing it or potentially have the know-how?
> 
> I don't think you want to do this based on Fedora. The rate of change is
> very high. Have you looked at Ubuntu LTS distros to see how those would
> work for you intended market?
> 
> Another issue for Fedora is that it doesn't provide some software 
> (particularly
> media codecs) because of software patents. If you are talking about
> implenting this plan in the US, getting additional Fedora compatible software
> from RPM Fusion (that is blocked from Fedor abecause of software patents) is
> going to be legally risky.

Actually, I found these to be rather easy to handle when I set up my own
repositories using mrepo and each computer was installed via kickstart
which configured it to use the local repo(s) which also included some of
the then Livna (now rpmfusion) in a special repo which also included
Adobe packages.

I think the OP and I have different concept about 'raw state' and 'user
friendly' because I found that most users had no trouble with just
sitting and using Linux or rather, those that did struggle would have
struggled with Windows or Macintosh anyway.

Craig


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Re: Fedora Basic End User Rollout Support Operation

2010-01-02 Thread Frank Murphy (Frankly3D) 
On 02/01/10 07:27, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 01, 2010 at 13:33:24 -0600,
--snipped--

> I don't think you want to do this based on Fedora. The rate of change is
> very high. Have you looked at Ubuntu LTS distros to see how those would
> work for you intended market?

CentOS may also be thought of here. as both a Desktop and Server.

> 
> Another issue for Fedora is that it doesn't provide some software 
> (particularly
> media codecs) because of software patents. If you are talking about
> implenting this plan in the US, getting additional Fedora compatible software
> from RPM Fusion (that is blocked from Fedor abecause of software patents) is
> going to be legally risky.
> 

Maybe go the Fluendo way to be covered?


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Regards,

Frank Murphy
UTF_8 Encoded.

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Re: Fedora Basic End User Rollout Support Operation

2010-01-01 Thread Bruno Wolff III 
On Fri, Jan 01, 2010 at 13:33:24 -0600,
> 
> The hurdle is that Linux usage is very foreign to the average consumer and
> SMB.  Linux is an entirely different system to navigate and administrate.
> The layout, description and deployment of applications is in whole different
> paradigm.  Fedora has many advantages, but in its raw state it is not very
> user friendly.  I am looking to talk to someone who knows has to create a
> user friendly approach to Linux that can be effectively pitched to the
> consumer and SMB market.  My business model will simply be to set-up,
> configure systems, assist with package application selections and train this
> market for competitive price.  Can someone point me to the right person or
> people who are doing it or potentially have the know-how?

I don't think you want to do this based on Fedora. The rate of change is
very high. Have you looked at Ubuntu LTS distros to see how those would
work for you intended market?

Another issue for Fedora is that it doesn't provide some software (particularly
media codecs) because of software patents. If you are talking about
implenting this plan in the US, getting additional Fedora compatible software
from RPM Fusion (that is blocked from Fedor abecause of software patents) is
going to be legally risky.

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Re: Fedora Basic End User Rollout Support Operation

2010-01-01 Thread Jatin K 

On 01/02/2010 01:03 AM, Robert E. Martin, VCM Network wrote:


Members:

I have been seriously contemplating developing a business model that 
is targeting expanding the use of Linux for the everyday desktop use 
and in small to medium size business.  I am not a computer geek or a 
highly proficient computer specialist, which puts me in the same 
category of a majority of computer users.  I have sold IT and 
telecommunications hardware for over 15 years.  I am now seeking to 
build a business with a key differentiator for an IT service offering 
targeting consumers and the SMB market.  I believe I can do that with 
Fedora if I can climb some significant hurdles.  I am looking for 
someone who has climbed those hurdles that I can have a dialogue.


The hurdle is that Linux usage is very foreign to the average consumer 
and SMB.  Linux is an entirely different system to navigate and 
administrate.  The layout, description and deployment of applications 
is in whole different paradigm.  Fedora has many advantages, but in 
its raw state it is not very user friendly.  I am looking to talk to 
someone who knows has to create a user friendly approach to Linux that 
can be effectively pitched to the consumer and SMB market.  My 
business model will simply be to set-up, configure systems, assist 
with package application selections and train this market for 
competitive price.  Can someone point me to the right person or people 
who are doing it or potentially have the know-how?


*vcm_network_logo_391x285.jpg*

*Robert E. Martin, President & CEO*

*1325 E. 52^nd Street*

*Chicago, IL 60615*

*Phone: (312) 324-0049*

*Email:* *[email protected]* 

*Website:* *www.vcmnetwork.com***



good thought




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No M$

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