Re: [Felvtalk] Bridget is dead

2010-03-18 Thread LauraM
I don't think she's fine, at all. When I went into my garage, where I keep my 
positives and my turtles, the air was so thick in there I couldn't stand it. I 
started hyperventilating and I felt sick. As you all know, I've lost a few cats 
to FeLV and this hasn't happened before. I'm telling you, this was either 
intentional or it was negligence, and Bridget knows this. I'll never be able to 
prove it, I'm aware of that, but I know it in my heart.
I found out last night that the same vet nearly killed a friend's cat by giving 
too much anesthesia.

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Re: [Felvtalk] Bridget is dead

2010-03-18 Thread Debbie Bates

Laura, what a tragic turn of events!!! I am so sorry for all you have had to 
endure recentlyour hearts break with yours.

 
 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:45:50 -0700
 From: hingebacktorto...@yahoo.com
 To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
 Subject: [Felvtalk] Bridget is dead
 
 Bridget is dead. I had her spayed today and apparently she died very quickly 
 under anesthesia. She was my baby. I would have done anything for her and now 
 she's dead. It has been a miserable few weeks with Frosty Paws and then Baby 
 Girl but this has broken my heart. She was doing so well. Could it have been 
 the LTCI? I have to know whether I'm responsible for killing her. Please, if 
 anyone knows whether the LTCI could have had something to do with it, maybe 
 made her more sensitive to being put under, please let me know, I have to 
 know whether I killed my cat.
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Re: [Felvtalk] Epogen? Interfuron?

2010-03-18 Thread Sharyl
Amy, mine had regular blood work.  I did not do the specific B12 test,  I used 
the vitamins/supplements based on their HCT nos.  A cat needs the B's, folic 
acid and iron to produce new red blood cells.  The B's and folic acid are water 
soluble so overdosing isn't an issue.  Iron should not be supplemented unless 
there is a deficiency.

You could be right.  This is from
http://www.petplace.com/cats/anemia-in-cats/page1.aspx
Regenerative anemia is caused by either blood loss or hemolyis (red cell 
destruction). Non-regenerative anemia is seen with either acute (very sudden) 
anemia of any cause, bone marrow disease, iron deficiency, or bone marrow 
suppression secondary to chronic disease or kidney failure. Performing a 
reticulocyte count is therefore very useful in narrowing down the causes of the 
anemia.

To build on what others have said, I tend to throw the kitchen sink at whatever 
the problem is.  There is no 100% guarantee on anything in life.  If there is a 
chance it could help then I will try it.  My sweet Albert (advanced CRF, 
anemia, CHF, severe HCM, severe periodontal disease) was given days/weeks by 
his various vets.  He enjoyed another 1 1/2 yrs because we didn't believe the 
vets and didn't give up.

You have to make the decision on what is best for your cat.  We are dealing 
with a chronic disease.  There is no cure.  We do the best we can to manage it 
and provide a loving life to our beloved companions.  Untreated anemia can 
eventually kill a cat but many cats respond to a treatment plan.  

Sharyl

--- On Wed, 3/17/10, Amy awilkin...@yahoo.com wrote:

 From: Amy awilkin...@yahoo.com
 Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Epogen? Interfuron?
 To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
 Date: Wednesday, March 17, 2010, 10:22 PM
  Amy, I have not used epogen for
 a CRF
  or FeLV kitty though I have had both with anemia.  
  
  There is a Yahoo Anemia group that may be able to
 answer
  some of your questions about the risks of using epogen
 or
  Darbepoetin.
  http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Feline_Anemia/
 
 I was part of this group for quite some time but couldn't
 find anybody using Epogen, with success, for a leuk positive
 kitty.  
    
  I used vitamins and supplements (B12, Super B Complex
 and
  Folic Acid) to manage chronic anemia. 
 
 Did you do any tests to see if the cat was low in B12 or
 did you just use the vitamins and supplements?  I have
 had Wolfie tested and everything is fine but my vet wants to
 check it once more (it's been a few months) at his next
 routine blood draw.  We discussed B12 injections and
 have discussed vitamins/supplements.  We are going to
 address this again after seeing his bloodwork.  
 
  I do agree that if the kidneys are producing
 erythropoietin
  but the bone marrow is not responding then giving
 epogen
  shots would not be beneficial.  I have not heard it
  called nonregenative anemia when the kidneys are
 producing
  erythropoietin.  
  Sharyl
 
 My understanding is that erythropoietin is made and
 released by the kidneys.  In a cat with damaged
 kidneys, sufficient erythropoietin can't be produced. 
 In a leuk positive cat with healthy kidneys, erythropoietin
 is still being produced but the bone marrow is unable to
 respond.  I think it's still nonregenerative if new red
 blood cells aren't being made.  Does anybody know if my
 understanding is correct here?
  
 
 
 
       
 
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Re: [Felvtalk] Bridget is dead

2010-03-18 Thread Stray Cat Alliance

I totally understand feeling guilty - been there. Sometimes even when your head 
knows it isn't your fault but your heart says differently. Please do not beat 
yourself up over it - it is not your fault. Your love for Bridget (and your 
other cats) is evident in your email. She and they were very lucky to have you 
- and I know you feel lucky that you had them.

 

I am very sorry for your losses.

 

Anita
  
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[Felvtalk] (no subject)

2010-03-18 Thread modell5
Hello.. We wold like to be taken off your mailing list..We were able to find a 
home for Kita. She is a very sweet lady who can afford to take care of the way 
he needs to be and he is going to be only animal in the house.
Thank -you
Mike and Donna

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[Felvtalk] Re: Bridget is dead

2010-03-18 Thread Anna Waltman
I'm so sorry to hear about Bridget's passing and will be keeping both of you
in my thoughts tonight. It's heartbreaking but at least she passed
peacefully and quietly; I'm sure she's watching over you, thankful for all
the love and friendship you gave her during her time in your care.

I'm absolutely positive that this is NOT your fault. You did the right thing
in having Bridget spayed and trusting your vet. Even if his views differ
from ours on euthanasia of FLV+ cats, it's his duty to do right by you and
abide by your wishes for your companion, who cannot speak for herself but
relies on you (not him) to speak for her. I sincerely doubt any vet would go
against the owner's wishes, as well as professional ethics, and put a cat to
death surreptitiously (except perhaps in the case of PETA).

You did the right thing.

In solidarity,
Anna, Sylvia and Beatrice
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Re: [Felvtalk] Bridget is dead

2010-03-18 Thread Jeff Mills
I understand your pain.  I took my 17-year old into the vet last June 15th 
because he was very old and fragile, and refused food that morning.  He had 
separated himself from the pride, self-exiling to the living room weeks before. 
 

The technician detected a wheeze - he had been wheezing for years.  He was 17, 
after all.  So the technician told me that he would take Demon in back and put 
him on some oxygen until the doctor could look him over.  He yowled as she took 
him away, and for once in my life, my cat senses failed me.

Moments later, the doctor came into the room to tell me that Demon had arrested 
on the exam table, and there was nothing they could do.  Before I had even had 
a chance to thank him for all the joy he had given me, to honor him by holding 
him as he passed - all of that was taken away from the two of us.

It is hard to not think, If I had only...  Blaming oneself seems natural, 
when the result is the loss of one of our close family members.  And make no 
mistake, that's what the furbabies we take into our lives quickly become.  (I 
am crying as I am writing this.)

But do not let an unfortunate accident diminish the bond you had with your 
fur-daughter, however short it may have been.  Cherish what time you had 
together, and what you learned from her.  Take what she taught you into the 
future with you, for while it still hurts right now, eventually there will be 
another furry relationship, and the things you have learned with Bridget will 
provide you with invaluable lessons for the future.

For the kitties,
Jeffrey Mills



  
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Re: [Felvtalk] Bridget is dead

2010-03-18 Thread LauraM
I never got to say goodbye. I handed her over and left her with strangers and 
left her to die without me. I don't know how long she'd been dead before the 
vet bothered calling - I left as soon as I got word  it only takes 15 minutes 
to get there, and she was stone cold and stiff as a board. This will haunt me 
for the rest of my life.

--- On Thu, 3/18/10, Jeff Mills jeffkmi...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: Jeff Mills jeffkmi...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Bridget is dead
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 6:39 PM


I understand your pain.  I took my 17-year old into the vet last June 15th 
because he was very old and fragile, and refused food that morning.  He had 
separated himself from the pride, self-exiling to the living room weeks 
before.  

The technician detected a wheeze - he had been wheezing for years.  He was 17, 
after all.  So the technician told me that he would take Demon in back and put 
him on some oxygen until the doctor could look him over.  He yowled as she took 
him away, and for once in my life, my cat senses failed me.

Moments later, the doctor came into the room to tell me that Demon had arrested 
on the exam table, and there was nothing they could do.  Before I had even had 
a chance to thank him for all the joy he had given me, to honor him by holding 
him as he passed - all of that was taken away from the two of us.

It is hard to not think, If I had only...  Blaming oneself seems natural, 
when the result is the loss of one of our close family members.  And make no 
mistake, that's what the furbabies we take into our lives quickly become.  (I 
am crying as I am writing this.)

But do not let an unfortunate accident diminish the bond you had with your 
fur-daughter, however short it may have been.  Cherish what time you had 
together, and what you learned from her.  Take what she taught you into the 
future with you, for while it still hurts right now, eventually there will be 
another furry relationship, and the things you have learned with Bridget will 
provide you with invaluable lessons for the future.

For the kitties,
Jeffrey Mills



      
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Re: [Felvtalk] Bridget is dead

2010-03-18 Thread Cougar Clan
Wait, calm yourself, and, when the time is right, talk to Bridget.   
She will talk back to you when it is right.  Honest.

On Mar 18, 2010, at 6:31 PM, LauraM wrote:

I never got to say goodbye. I handed her over and left her with  
strangers and left her to die without me. I don't know how long  
she'd been dead before the vet bothered calling - I left as soon as  
I got word  it only takes 15 minutes to get there, and she was  
stone cold and stiff as a board. This will haunt me for the rest of  
my life.


--- On Thu, 3/18/10, Jeff Mills jeffkmi...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: Jeff Mills jeffkmi...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Bridget is dead
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 6:39 PM


I understand your pain.  I took my 17-year old into the vet last  
June 15th because he was very old and fragile, and refused food that  
morning.  He had separated himself from the pride, self-exiling to  
the living room weeks before.


The technician detected a wheeze - he had been wheezing for years.   
He was 17, after all.  So the technician told me that he would take  
Demon in back and put him on some oxygen until the doctor could look  
him over.  He yowled as she took him away, and for once in my life,  
my cat senses failed me.


Moments later, the doctor came into the room to tell me that Demon  
had arrested on the exam table, and there was nothing they could  
do.  Before I had even had a chance to thank him for all the joy he  
had given me, to honor him by holding him as he passed - all of that  
was taken away from the two of us.


It is hard to not think, If I had only...  Blaming oneself seems  
natural, when the result is the loss of one of our close family  
members.  And make no mistake, that's what the furbabies we take  
into our lives quickly become.  (I am crying as I am writing this.)


But do not let an unfortunate accident diminish the bond you had  
with your fur-daughter, however short it may have been.  Cherish  
what time you had together, and what you learned from her.  Take  
what she taught you into the future with you, for while it still  
hurts right now, eventually there will be another furry  
relationship, and the things you have learned with Bridget will  
provide you with invaluable lessons for the future.


For the kitties,
Jeffrey Mills




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Re: [Felvtalk] Bridget is dead

2010-03-18 Thread Belinda Sauro
Now I have to say that is odd, they should have called you when it 
happened, right away when it happened.  When I lost my Buddie 
immediately after surgery.  My vet called to tell me she came through 
surgery just fine but a few minutes later she called me back and told me 
she had arrested in recovery.  They tried saving her but couldn't.


With my sisters cat they called while she was on the table to let you us 
know what happened and kept her alive until we could get there and see 
exactly how bad it was.  They kept her alive for a while to give my 
sister time to come to grips with what had happened and to make sure she 
wasn't going to pull out of it.  She never showed any signs of 
improvement and that was when my sister decided to let her go.



I never got to say goodbye. I handed her over and left her with strangers and left 
her to die without me. I don't know how long she'd been dead before the vet 
bothered calling - I left as soon as I got word  it only takes 15 minutes to 
get there, and she was stone cold and stiff as a board. This will haunt me for the 
rest of my life.


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Re: [Felvtalk] Bridget is dead

2010-03-18 Thread Belinda Sauro
PS.  I had the same guilt with Buddie, but she was so sick I knew there 
was a good chance she wouldn't pull through, I spent the night before 
telling her if she was ready to leave it was OK, it was her decision.  I 
did ask her to let me know she was OK if she did leave ... and she did.


Three days after she passed I got up to feed the cats for the last time 
before I went to bed, hubby was already sound asleep.  Went in the 
kitchen, got the food bowls ready put them on the floor and headed back 
to bed.  To my surprise the exercise room light was on, it was not on 
when I got up and went in the kitchen.  This was Buddies favorite room, 
she wasn't very social with the other cats and spent a lot of time in 
there to be alone.  I know she turned that light on to let me know she 
was OK ... I thanked her and went to bed with a smile on my face.


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Re: [Felvtalk] Bridget is dead

2010-03-18 Thread Belinda Sauro
  I agree, talk to her, Bridget will answer you in the best way she 
can.  My Mom and Dad come around on occasion, Dad with the smell of 
cigarette smoke, he loved his ciggies and Mom with the smell of fried 
chicken, she came everyday for a month before Bailey passed, I didn't 
put it together until after he passed, the smell immediately stopped, 
but for his last month I smelled it every single day and commented more 
than once that someone sure liked fried chicken.  I was assuming it was 
coming from outside.  It was Mom, she came to take Bailey home for me.


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Re: [Felvtalk] Epogen? Interfuron?

2010-03-18 Thread Amy
Hi Belinda,

    I'll give her the
 benefit of the doubt, but what exactly is she basing her
 information that FeLV+'s have such a bad experience with
 using epogen, because I have not heard of any studies that
 have been done on this to bear that out and if there is one
 I would like the reference so I can look into it and give it
 to my vet.

I think she was basing it on her experience using Epogen to treat cats with 
leukemia.  I could be wrong on that.  She talked about how she has seen a case 
or two where it helped despite there being no reason it should but she saw far 
more cases where irreversible damage was done and the cat was actually worse 
off than before the Epogen.  She is fine with me trying LTCI or some of the 
stuff that she agrees doesn't pose a risk but she definitely feels that Epogen 
can do harm.  I don't know what I think yet, just relaying her thoughts.  The 
one thing she said that I can't stop thinking about is that these cats are 
immune compromised and a lot of these treatments are introducing foreign 
substances into their body which can alter an already very delicate balance.  
So much to think about...
 
 Amy never be afraid to say anything on this list, all I am
 saying is that in my experience your vets information is
 incorrect about the use of epogen.   Both
 from other people experiences that I know of that have
 FeLV+'s and from my vets experiences.

Definitely worth knowing!  The more info I have the better.  I just feel like 
sometimes this list is pretty hard on vets.  I genuinely feel this one is 
treating my cat like she would treat her own.  She's not my vet so I have no 
reason to try to defend her.  I went to Cornell for a 2nd opinion to see if 
there is anything else I could possibly try to save Wolfie.  If anything I 
would think they would be telling me to try one thing after another because 
they would be making a whole lot more money off me than they are now.  I really 
think this vet is trying to help me give Wolfie the best quality of life for 
the longest time possible.

 And there isn't a lot of information out there because most
 vets won't even try it and I am not lying when I say most
 vets are terrified of epogen in general and have no idea how
 to use it because in vet school they are taught that 30% or
 better of cats using it will have an adverse reaction to
 it.  That is old information and most vets who actually
 use it on a regular basis, mostly on CRF cats say that
 number is closer to 10% or less and only after 5 months or
 longer of use.

I'll have to inquire more about her experience using it and what she is basing 
her info on.
 
 And everyone here knows I have no love for Cornell, their
 information about FeLV had always been outdated and in my
 opinion inaccurate.  And years ago when most vets knew
 little to nothing about FeLV, their outdated information
 caused many positive, healthy cats their lives since they
 were then the only veterinary site with the most info out
 there about FeLV+, no matter it was inaccurate.

I wasn't aware of that.  They were very receptive to helping my cat and never 
once gave me the impression that he should be treated any different than any 
other cat with any other issue.  

  *Secondary viremia*, a later stage characterized by
 persistent infection of the bone marrow and other tissue. If
 FeLV infection progresses to this stage it has passed a
 point of no return: the overwhelming majority of cats with
 secondary viremia will be infected for the remainder of
 their lives.
 
 It says it is to the point of no return but *ONLY the
 majority of cats* will remain infected for the remainder of
 their lives, doesn't add up, if it is to the point of no
 return then *ALL of those cats* would be infected the
 remainder of their lives.  Guess they got to cover
 their butts in case a cat does fight off secondary
 viremia.  I have heard of one cat that did but have no
 proof so can't say it has or hasn't happened.

I see where that statement can be confusing.

 In my opinion because they won't spend the money to do
 those tests, but if you talk with many people using one or
 another of these treatments most are having good results, so
 since there isn't scientific evidence because no studies
 have been done, well I personally will go with people with
 positives that have experience using these types of
 treatments, but if you tell anyone at Cornell that, I'm
 pretty sure they will poo poo it and tell you it is a waste
 of your time and money.

Actually she was fine with me trying anything other than Epogen.   However she 
presented me several studies on interferon and several other options that 
showed no benefit in the treated group.  We discussed Wolfie's  quality of life 
and decided that I can't mess with a good thing when there is not one study 
that shows these things help.  I posted to this group to see if anybody has 
been able to save a cat with nonregenerative anemia using any of the treatments 
ever