from:"Caroline Kaufmann"


My felv+ foster Manny is going to his new home tonight (with lots of 
instructions, favorite toys, and probably some lingering anxiety from me!).  
Manny has been a finnicky canned food eater ever since I've had him- which has 
sucked b/c that is how I like to get supplements in him like lysine and added 
water.  But he loves loves loves the Eagle Pack Holistic Dry (which I have all 
my fosters on)--  LOVES IT.  As much I would like to convert all my cats to all 
canned- they just love their Eagle Pack dry too much.  And they have the most 
awesome coats- I get compliments on my fosters all the time- how good they 
look, none are fat, no dander, shiny, soft coats-- thus, I am very happy with 
the Holistic.  But all my fosters also get Holistic canned everyday, with water 
and supplements added, so I am sure that helps keeping them look great too.  
Manny will occasionally eat the Holistic canned, but he won't eat it in back to 
back feedings or two days in a row (he's nutty).  I originally tried to feed 
him a diet of Wellness canned only and he just stopped eating it totally (waste 
of expensive food)!  That is when I switched him to Eagle Pack.  So as far as 
sending him to his new home with feeding and supplment instructions, his new 
mom says she doesn't want to change anything b/c he looks so gorgeous and his 
coat is so wonderful, so she will keep him on the Holistic Dry.  I've asked 
that she occassionally give him some canned Holistic, but warned that he won't 
eat it 2 days in a row.  
 
I'd like to send her with instructions to add powdered Lysine to his dry food 
and was wondering if people thought this will work?  I have done it a few times 
with him and he seemed to not notice/care, but it hasn't been my primary way of 
administering lysine b/c I did keep up with giving him canned food every few 
days.  I think it will work tho b/c he loves his Holistic so much, I seriously 
doubt he won't eat it due to the Lysine powder.  Also, what is a good 
maintenance dose?  He is as healthy as a horse, so I just want to provide it to 
them as a preventative measure.  
thanks
caroline   
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Re: [Felvtalk] Lysine added to dry food?

oh you do? powdered lysine? okay, I will have them do that. That seems easy
enough! God, I am so excited and also so nervous and yet, so happy for Manny!
I'm going to miss him. He's my most gorgeous boy and the most friendly in the
house, so now I will have no male-model cat to show off to people. Sigh.
caroline
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 13:34:58 -0500 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To:
felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Lysine added to dry
food? Hi Caroline, I put the lysine in the water. I don't know if it
will work in dry food or not. Kelley -- Rescuties - Saving the
world, one cat at a time. http://www.rescuties.org Vist the Rescuties
store and save a kitty life!
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect-home?tag=rescuties-20 Check out
our Memsaic! http://www.memsaic.com/app/launch.cfm?sid=08D2CAB2A6E9
http://www.zazzle.com/rescuties* Please help with some of our kitties
medical needs! http://rescuties.chipin.com/kitties-medical-expenses
Rather than helping, it's easier to point fingers and say take them first
as long as you leave me alone.
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[Felvtalk] re chemotherapy?


my response is too long- so I split in two- didn't want Adrienne to have to 
wait on moderator approval.  Sorry.  1st of 2 responses from me.
Adrienne:I'm sorry about the diagnosis.  I have been through this myself.  This 
is a very personal decision you have to make.  I can't tell you what to do, jut 
my experience.  My beloved Monkee was diagnosed with lymphosarcoma in April 
2007.  He was also a Felv+ cat (I had had him tested 3 times). He lived 4 years 
with me as the picture of health until I found the lump on his leg in March.  
He was my only cat and in short, I worshipped him.  I'd lived for 4 years in 
fear of felv raising it's ugly head and actually started to think he was maybe 
a mere carrier and it would never claim him.  I was desperate to save him and 
fight the good fight.  Chemo was recommended and we began it immediately.  It 
was very very very expensive and very hard on him.  He hated it.  He knew when 
we turned into the vet specialists clinic parking lot, even tho he was in his 
carrier and couldn't see-- he knew the last turn- could sense it.  The problem 
with the chemo for a felv+ cat is manyfold: it stresses them out- which any 
added stress for a felv+ cat, whether symptomatic or not, is bad; chemo works 
by not only killing the bad cells, but the good ones too-- which will take a 
felv+ cat down even further than one that is felv-; also, what the doctor 
doesn't always tell you is that once they start the chemo, they have to monitor 
the white blood cell level.  If the wbc count is too low, they can't admin 
chemo anyway.  With Monkee, he had one chemo treatment and then we couldn't do 
another one for weeks (even tho the protocol he was to be on was once a week), 
b/c his wbc was so low and the vet couldn't tell if that was due to an 
infection (unlikely), the felv attacking his body (maybe), or the chemo itself 
killing off white blood cells (most likely).  Monkee only had a few chemo 
treatments and the tumor on his leg didn't shrink- in fact, it grew.  Either 
his leukemia was full blown by the time we even discovered the tumor, or the 
chemo itself hastened the leukemia's progress.  That is one of the main risks 
with chemo that you have to consider.  It can definitely have the opposite 
effect that you would want in that it can take the felv+ cat down so far by 
killing off the good cells remaining in your cats body-- white blood cells to 
fight infections AND red blood cells (if your cat is not yet anemic (low 
RBCs)), I can bet you that the chemo treatment itself will make the cat anemic 
due to killing off the RBCs.  On that note, has the vet done a blood panel yet? 
 I would ask for one now before you make a decision and find out what the RBC 
and WBC count is, among other things.  You need to keep in mind that 
lymphosarcoma/lymphoma is the number 1 form of cancer that develops in domestic 
cats (felv and non felv) and dogs.  I believe the vet profession automatically 
recommends chemo b/c of this type of cancer's prevalence in domestic cats and 
dogs, however, that doesn't mean that chemo should be the treatment of choice 
for an felv+ cat-- whereby the nature of the disease itself is an 
immunosuppressive disorder, and when it becomes active-- typically manifests 
itself as severe and life-threatening anemia.  It seems a counter-intuitive 
treatment.  
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[Felvtalk] re chemotherapy? 2nd part

2 of 2 from me:
I always said that, with what I learned in hindsight, if I had the opportunity
to do it differently, I would. At the time, I was not educated enough on the
disease to make a truly informed decision about the chemo and I was frantic and
not thinking clearly. AND I was obsessed with Monkee and blinded by a belief
that it was most important to try everything. I have come to realize now-
especially since my work fostering cats since Monkee's death- that trying
everything! IS NOT the most important, or most correct thing to do. If I ever
have another felv+ cat and I am faced with the same dilemma, my choice will be
to forego chemo, continue prednisone (which will make the cat's day to day life
more comfortable and can sometimes have an effect on tumors- stabilize them,
maybe even shrink them a little), and keep him happy, COMPLETELY NON-STRESSED,
and spend every freaking moment loving him. I would continue to take the cat
to the vet to monitor the red blood cells, etc. But I would forego chemo, the
blood transfusions that almost always come with chemo and/or severe anemia
caused by felv and/or the chemo treatment itself, and in Monkee's case, his
specialist wanted the leg tumor surgically removed when the chemo didn't shrink
it and honestly, I think the surgery just really knocked the poor thing past
the point of return. He was in so much pain for 2 days after- it was horrible.
We will never know for sure if the severe anemia that eventually caused him to
die in my arms late one night, was caused by the felv itself becoming active,
or if the chemo and/or surgery was actually the final straw in really kicking
in the anemia. Yes it's likely his felv was already full-blown by the time
the tumor was discovered, but in my opinion, the chemo and surgery definitely
did not prolong his life. When the vet suggests chemo for this cancer, you
have to know that they are reccommending this as a life-prolonging treatment
that will at best, prolong the cat's life by only a few months. And you may
say what I said-- that I have to give him those few months- I owe that to him!
But what did I really do for him? Rush him off to multi vets- 2 vet
specialists, borrowed money from my mom to pay for his extremely expensive
treatment, stressed him out with blood taking, a blood transfusion, chemo and
surgery...and stressed him out with my crying and crying and crying? I really
suspect that the chemo/transfusions/surgery DID NOT prolong Monkee's life and
wonder now how long we could have sailed along with him having his tumor on his
leg (that didn't bother him at all!), taking prednisone (and feeling like
super-Monkee!), and chilling in our little house-- happily eating raw chicken
livers and raw lean buffalo (for his anemia), playing, napping and loving a
non-stressfull life The gamble on the other side is, can you live with
yourself and the questioning of yourself for not doing the chemo? You have to
weigh both sides and what is best for your cat. Not what is best for you.
Caroline (and Monkee in spirit)
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Re: [Felvtalk] chemotherapy?


Adrienne:
I'm sorry about the diagnosis.  I have been through this myself.  This is a 
very personal decision you have to make.  I can't tell you what to do, jut my 
experience.  My beloved Monkee was diagnosed with lymphosarcoma in April 2007.  
He was also a Felv+ cat (I had had him tested 3 times). He lived 4 years with 
me as the picture of health until I found the lump on his leg in March.  He was 
my only cat and in short, I worshipped him.  I'd lived for 4 years in fear of 
felv raising it's ugly head and actually started to think he was maybe a mere 
carrier and it would never claim him.  I was desperate to save him and fight 
the good fight.  Chemo was recommended and we began it immediately.  It was 
very very very expensive and very hard on him.  He hated it.  He knew when we 
turned into the vet specialists clinic parking lot, even tho he was in his 
carrier and couldn't see-- he knew the last turn- could sense it.  The problem 
with the chemo for a felv+ cat is manyfold: it stresses them out- which any 
added stress for a felv+ cat, whether symptomatic or not, is bad; chemo works 
by not only killing the bad cells, but the good ones too-- which will take a 
felv+ cat down even further than one that is felv-; also, what the doctor 
doesn't always tell you is that once they start the chemo, they have to monitor 
the white blood cell level.  If the wbc count is too low, they can't admin 
chemo anyway.  With Monkee, he had one chemo treatment and then we couldn't do 
another one for weeks (even tho the protocol he was to be on was once a week), 
b/c his wbc was so low and the vet couldn't tell if that was due to an 
infection (unlikely), the felv attacking his body (maybe), or the chemo itself 
killing off white blood cells (most likely).  Monkee only had a few chemo 
treatments and the tumor on his leg didn't shrink- in fact, it grew.  Either 
his leukemia was full blown by the time we even discovered the tumor, or the 
chemo itself hastened the leukemia's progress.  That is one of the main risks 
with chemo that you have to consider.  It can definitely have the opposite 
effect that you would want in that it can take the felv+ cat down so far by 
killing off the good cells remaining in your cats body-- white blood cells to 
fight infections AND red blood cells (if your cat is not yet anemic (low 
RBCs)), I can bet you that the chemo treatment itself will make the cat anemic 
due to killing off the RBCs.  On that note, has the vet done a blood panel yet? 
 I would ask for one now before you make a decision and find out what the RBC 
and WBC count is, among other things. 
 
You need to keep in mind that lymphosarcoma/lymphoma is the number 1 form of 
cancer that develops in domestic cats (felv and non felv) and dogs.  I believe 
the vet profession automatically recommends chemo b/c of this type of cancer's 
prevalence in domestic cats and dogs, however, that doesn't mean that chemo 
should be the treatment of choice for an felv+ cat-- whereby the nature of 
the disease itself is an immunosuppressive disorder, and when it becomes 
active-- typically manifests itself as severe and life-threatening anemia.  
It seems a counter-intuitive treatment.  
 
I always said that, with what I learned in hindsight, if I had the opportunity 
to do it differently, I would.  At the time, I was not educated enough on the 
disease to make a truly informed decision about the chemo and I was frantic and 
not thinking clearly.  AND I was obsessed with Monkee and blinded by a belief 
that it was most important to try everything.  I have come to realize now- 
especially since my work fostering cats since Monkee's death- that trying 
everything! IS NOT the most important, or most correct thing to do.  If I ever 
have another felv+ cat and I am faced with the same dilemma, my choice will be 
to forego chemo, continue prednisone (which will make the cat's day to day life 
more comfortable and can sometimes have an effect on tumors- stabilize them, 
maybe even shrink them a little), and keep him happy, COMPLETELY NON-STRESSED, 
and spend every freaking moment loving him.  I would continue to take the cat 
to the vet to monitor the red blood cells, etc.  But I would forego chemo, the 
blood transfusions that almost always come with chemo and/or severe anemia 
caused by felv and/or the chemo treatment itself, and in Monkee's case, his 
specialist wanted the leg tumor surgically removed when the chemo didn't shrink 
it and honestly, I think the surgery just really knocked the poor thing past 
the point of return.  He was in so much pain for 2 days after- it was horrible. 
 We will never know for sure if the severe anemia that eventually caused him to 
die in my arms late one night, was caused by the felv itself becoming active, 
or if the chemo and/or surgery was actually the final straw in really kicking 
in the anemia.  
 
Yes it's likely his felv was already full-blown by the time the tumor was 
discovered, but in my

[Felvtalk] RE Chemotherapy?


Adrienne:I'm sorry about the diagnosis.  I have been through this myself.  This 
is a very personal decision you have to make.  I can't tell you what to do, jut 
my experience.  My beloved Monkee was diagnosed with lymphosarcoma in April 
2007.  He was also a Felv+ cat (I had had him tested 3 times). He lived 4 years 
with me as the picture of health until I found the lump on his leg in March.  
He was my only cat and in short, I worshipped him.  I'd lived for 4 years in 
fear of felv raising it's ugly head and actually started to think he was maybe 
a mere carrier and it would never claim him.  I was desperate to save him and 
fight the good fight.  Chemo was recommended and we began it immediately.  It 
was very very very expensive and very hard on him.  He hated it.  He knew when 
we turned into the vet specialists clinic parking lot, even tho he was in his 
carrier and couldn't see-- he knew the last turn- could sense it.  The problem 
with the chemo for a felv+ cat is manyfold: it stresses them out- which any 
added stress for a felv+ cat, whether symptomatic or not, is bad; chemo works 
by not only killing the bad cells, but the good ones too-- which will take a 
felv+ cat down even further than one that is felv-; also, what the doctor 
doesn't always tell you is that once they start the chemo, they have to monitor 
the white blood cell level.  If the wbc count is too low, they can't admin 
chemo anyway.  With Monkee, he had one chemo treatment and then we couldn't do 
another one for weeks (even tho the protocol he was to be on was once a week), 
b/c his wbc was so low and the vet couldn't tell if that was due to an 
infection (unlikely), the felv attacking his body (maybe), or the chemo itself 
killing off white blood cells (most likely).  Monkee only had a few chemo 
treatments and the tumor on his leg didn't shrink- in fact, it grew.  Either 
his leukemia was full blown by the time we even discovered the tumor, or the 
chemo itself hastened the leukemia's progress.  That is one of the main risks 
with chemo that you have to consider.  It can definitely have the opposite 
effect that you would want in that it can take the felv+ cat down so far by 
killing off the good cells remaining in your cats body-- white blood cells to 
fight infections AND red blood cells (if your cat is not yet anemic (low 
RBCs)), I can bet you that the chemo treatment itself will make the cat anemic 
due to killing off the RBCs.  On that note, has the vet done a blood panel yet? 
 I would ask for one now before you make a decision and find out what the RBC 
and WBC count is, among other things.  You need to keep in mind that 
lymphosarcoma/lymphoma is the number 1 form of cancer that develops in domestic 
cats (felv and non felv) and dogs.  I believe the vet profession automatically 
recommends chemo b/c of this type of cancer's prevalence in domestic cats and 
dogs, however, that doesn't mean that chemo should be the treatment of choice 
for an felv+ cat-- whereby the nature of the disease itself is an 
immunosuppressive disorder, and when it becomes active-- typically manifests 
itself as severe and life-threatening anemia.  It seems a counter-intuitive 
treatment.   I always said that, with what I learned in hindsight, if I had the 
opportunity to do it differently, I would.  At the time, I was not educated 
enough on the disease to make a truly informed decision about the chemo and I 
was frantic and not thinking clearly.  AND I was obsessed with Monkee and 
blinded by a belief that it was most important to try everything.  I have 
come to realize now- especially since my work fostering cats since Monkee's 
death- that trying everything! IS NOT the most important, or most correct 
thing to do.  If I ever have another felv+ cat and I am faced with the same 
dilemma, my choice will be to forego chemo, continue prednisone (which will 
make the cat's day to day life more comfortable and can sometimes have an 
effect on tumors- stabilize them, maybe even shrink them a little), and keep 
him happy, COMPLETELY NON-STRESSED, and spend every freaking moment loving him. 
 I would continue to take the cat to the vet to monitor the red blood cells, 
etc.  But I would forego chemo, the blood transfusions that almost always come 
with chemo and/or severe anemia caused by felv and/or the chemo treatment 
itself, and in Monkee's case, his specialist wanted the leg tumor surgically 
removed when the chemo didn't shrink it and honestly, I think the surgery just 
really knocked the poor thing past the point of return.  He was in so much pain 
for 2 days after- it was horrible.  We will never know for sure if the severe 
anemia that eventually caused him to die in my arms late one night, was caused 
by the felv itself becoming active, or if the chemo and/or surgery was actually 
the final straw in really kicking in the anemia.   Yes it's likely his felv was 
already full-blown by the time the tumor was discovered, but in my opinion,

Re: [Felvtalk] chemotherapy?


Right and that wasn't an issue with me really.  I had told my mom that I would 
practically do anything to have a machine that kept Monkee alive- a Monkee head 
on top of a machine!  That is what I said-- I know, morbid, but we always joke 
in bad times.  So, a 3 legged Monkee- well, both he and I would have been fine 
with that!  The doc was worried that she would eventually have to take the leg 
if they didn't remove the tumor, but I don't think it would have ever come to 
that.  He never would have made it that long for the tumor to compromise the 
leg.  He was already so systemically compromised.  We found what appeared to be 
lymph tumors in his belly shortly after the surgery.  We did the blood 
transfusion, but doc said she wouldn't reccommend doing a 2nd in him b/c of the 
tumors developing in the belly/groin (and I couldn't bare another transfusion 
at that point- the psychological effect of the transfusion on both of us was 
too much).
ck  Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 13:39:01 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 
felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] chemotherapy?  
Caroline, I'm really sorry that Monkee had such a difficult time, I also  
believe we are all here for a given time and once it is our time to go,  we 
go.  It is my understanding anytime there is a tumor on a limb, the limb  
should be amputated, this in almost all cases along with chemo and  sometimes 
even without chemo will get completely rid of the cancer if it  hasn't already 
spread. Some people feel a cat will not do well with a  limb gone but all the 
people I have talked to that have had this  experience say their cats adjusted 
very well and very quickly. Me  personally if it means any of my furkids 
having three legs or being  dead, they will be tree-legged, as I would be 
given the same choice.  --   Belinda happiness is being owned by cats ... 
 http://bemikitties.com  http://BelindaSauro.com   
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[Felvtalk] Seizures Update

2008-08-19 Thread Caroline Kaufmann


Here's an update on my adopted/returned foster cat with alleged seizures: 
By the time his appt rolled around yesterday with the vet of my choice,
 I knew it was going to go well.  The more people I talked to about it, the
 more people said there was something wrong with those people at that house
 and having him out of there was the most important thing.  But he's just
 gotten better and better.  I have no trouble medicating him at all.  Just
 those first few times.  He's actually one of the easiest I've ever medicated
 now!!  I haven't had a scratch or a bite yet and it goes super fast--
 he's a good boy!  The odd aggressive behavior is lessened.  He totally
 trusts me already and is a complete love-bug.  He is just a quirky, willful
 little thing and that's just his personality-- he wants to run around and be
 hyper and get into everything and so sometimes when I scoop him up, he does
 that growling, but it's funny/harmless.  Most importantly, no seizures-- no
 signs of seizures.  I've had him since Thursday and you'd think he never
 left me with the way he responds to me!
 
 So the vet saw a totally healthy, friendly, bright, Curious George Cat
 yesterday!  He just walks all over the exam room, jumps in the doctor's lap
 and rolls around!, purrs, tries to get into everything!  It's great to
 watch.  Dr. said we have a very healthy cat and he can't believe
 those people said they were going to put him down!  He said this is not a
 cat you even consider that with!  He agrees there was possible abuse.  But
 he also suggested that-- upon watching the cat's behavior in the exam room-
 that he is a cat who wants to get into everything so he thinks it's very
 possible the cat got into something- like a chemical- and the people- since
 they are so weird- just didn't know and overreacted.  He said that's very
 possible and with the way that cats metabolize things so slowly, it might
 just take a while for him to work it out of his system and that could be why
 he maybe had continuing seizures (if he even had them).  He said since
 there's been so seizures and the cat is happy, he doesn't want to change
 anything.  Stay on the same dose of phenobarb for 1 mth.  Then he wants to
 see him again in a month and they will take blood and get a phenobarb level
 at that time.  Then we will work on taking him off it slowly and monitoring
 the level.  He said if we start taking him off and he has a seizure- then we
 know he was having them, but at least we know that the phenobarb will
 control it.  But Dr. said no signs of a neurological defect-- none at
 all.  No need to even consider a catscan b/c there's just no signs-- totally
 alert and bright.  He said if it was FIP, there'd be other neurological
 signs, like ataxia.  But also, I don't know if I told you that?- adoptive
 parents vet called on sat- and everything negative- fip, toxo, felv, fiv-
 neg. Dr. confirmed too that blood work looks great.  Good news all
 around!  He's a happy, healthy, bouncing boy and I'm glad to have him back
 in my care!
Thanks for everyone's input, care and concern!
 Caroline 

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[Felvtalk] Seizures?

2008-08-15 Thread Caroline Kaufmann


I apologize for the length of this email but I need some help.  It appears the 
non-FELV kittens that I fostered a year ago in Sept.- whom all had severe UTIs 
and were rescued from the general population at Metro-- and whom I feel that I 
literally rescued from certain death due to the severity of their UTIs-- are 
coming back to haunt me.  You may recall that 2 of that group that I was unable 
to get my hands on to foster early enough I feel- I wasn't able to get to them 
until Dec.- ended up dying in late Jan. (Posse- maybe of wet FIP or a 
congenital heart defect- I believe the latter) and early Feb. (Brumley- maybe 
of dry FIP or Toxo). 
 
Well, one from this same group (we have no info about whether any are 
littermates, but all were condo-mates and foster-mates at some point) was 
returned to me yesterday.  He was adopted out in Dec.- frankly- to a lady I did 
not want him to go to, but was forced b/c he was not my original rescue (it's a 
long story)- but she had clear health issues and this cat was always the most 
hyperactive kitten I've ever fostered and I really suspected he would make 
mince-meat of this old lady and her husband.  
 
They called yesterday to say he's been having seizures since the end of July.  
He's been to the vet twice- shortly after the seizures started.  I'm not clear 
on what the vet did that first visit- the people said vet took blood, didn't 
find anything, and the cat was doing okay until recently when the seizures 
started again.  I did have the vet fax me records, but I am having difficulty 
reading her notes from the first visit for seizures.  The adoptive parents say 
he pulled out nails during the seizures on the carpet and he indeed seems to 
have a few bloodied nails- but he won't let me touch them to examine.  The vet 
put him on clavamox for the nails.  
 
They took him to the vet yesterday morning again due to more seziures and the 
vet took more blood to send off to the lab to check for FIV/FELV and most 
importantly, Toxoplasmosis (he previously tested neg for Felv/FIV).  We are 
awaiting those results that won't be in until Monday at the earliest and of 
course, I know ALL about the titers and the antibodies so I don't necessarily 
expect the blood work to tell me much, unless of course his Toxo titers are 
thru the roof (but even still?).  
 
Other than his bloodied nails and just looking a tad more neglected than I 
would like (some dander, dirty back feet pads, getting fat- big belly droop 
that I am NOT happy about- the cat just turned 1!, and he had fleas (which the 
vet treated him for)), he looks like a wonderfully healthy cat.  But then 
again, if he's having neurological issues, I wouldn't necessarily expect him to 
look unhealthy on the outside.  
 
The adoptive parents called me b/c they said they cannot medicate him.  They 
were given Phenobaribitol to help control the seziures and Clavamox.  The lady 
said she couldn't get either in him b/c he is aggressive and has bit her many 
times and scratched her.l  The husband got on the phone and said his wife is 
not in good health, he's trying to care for her, and he can't have the cat 
doing that to her so if I didn't come get him, he would put him down.  I asked 
if he was willing to wait until the results of the blood panel JUST taken that 
morning came back (which they will have to pay for?) and he said no.  So I knew 
I wasn't dealing with people like me and there was no way I was going to ask 
any more questions other than those regarding his health and meds.  
 
I've had him since yesterday and I was able to medicate him, but then again, 
come on, I'm good-- I have to admit that.  I've had the worst of the worst and 
I've been doing this since I was 5, so I figured these two people just 
can't handle even the slightest struggling cat-- she is a teeny tiny thing with 
frail arms that shake, she is almost legally blind I think and she is prone to 
falling, so, yeah, when this cat decided he didn't want to be medicated 
anymore, there wasn't anything these people could do about it!  So far, he has 
not had any seizures in my presence and I spent most of last evening with him.  
It doesn't appear he had any in his crate either b/c the crate is not trashed.  
But I have gotten all his Phenobar doses in.  
 
What I have observed is odd behavior changes.  When I fostered this cat-- he 
was just always nutty and hyper.  He would run around like a crazy thing and 
when I would go to pick him up, he would growl.  I thought it was funny and 
harmless and he did it only b/c he wanted to be down and running- just a 
willfull little monster.  My mom thought he was beyond a handfull and couldn't 
wait for him to get adopted b/c he was just a maniac!  His adoptive parents 
said yesterday that he only recently started growling and he never did that 
before- which I find that hard to believe b/c he always growled!?  That was 
his thing.  I treated it like a party trick b/c I like for them to all have

Re: [Felvtalk] Seizures?

2008-08-15 Thread Caroline Kaufmann


Unfortunately, yes, we are suspecting that and all I can say is that I do plan 
to address that with my vet on Monday b/c I can talk to him like that.  I was 
hoping he might have some insight.  I didn't want to say anything in my 
original email b/c I don't want to accuse anyone with little to no proof.  But 
the cause of the sezizures IS important to me b/c of the fact that if the cause 
is organic (dry FIP, Toxo, Tumor), then we are dealing with something 
degenerative and fatal.  Thus if his quality of life is horrible, I will do the 
right thing by him.  However, if the seizures have been induced by trauma, then 
there is the possibility that the neurological damage is finite and can be 
managed.  My mom is a classic over-reactor, but at the same time, pretty 
astute.  She did not want to adopt this cat to this lady from the get go b/c of 
the lady's oddness and obvious health problems and my mom and I both do 
profiling/matching of potential adoptive parents and we are good at it!  From 
the get go, she did not think a hyperactive kitten was right for these people- 
I agreed and I fought the good fight, but they paid their money and I got 
over-ruled.  My mom could barely handle him when I fostered him and would get 
aggravated with him, so honestly I think this is what started her down the road 
in her thinking of abuse/trauma.  She apparently did research last night and 
this solidfied her suspicions.  I am suspicious too b/c the claws.  And until I 
witness a seizure myself, that is going to bother me.  He freaks if I get near 
them- and I know they must pain him so (he essentially supposedly declawed 
himself)-- but it's just the way he reacted...I don't know-- so violent, like 
he was prepared to fight for his life over his paw- not like it hurt him to 
have it touched?  Also because of his slight neglectful appearance-- nothing 
major, but not acceptable by my standards at all!  An indoor cat with fleas?  
Hell no, not on my watch!  And I just don't believe much of what they said 
about him not ever growling before until recently?  That lil monster growled 
all the time when I fostered him- when playing with a toy or when he was 
running around and I would scoop him up, he would growl like a dog and I would 
laugh at laugh at him!  That was like a part of his personality?  I just don't 
know.  He doesn't really want me to pick him up.  I sometimes think that is 
because he thinks I'm going to treat him.  The toys- he just doesn't seem to 
know what they are.  Which breaks my heart b/c he used to be a major toy 
player.  They seem to trigger something in him so I have put them away.  I will 
have to watch for that kind of walking, but he is a stalker he does kind of 
stalk around and the only way I can describe it is like a wild cat at the zoo 
in a cage.  Pacing back and forth?  And he does this in his crate, but out too. 
 It's not a play-stalk like cats do when they get low to the ground and shake 
their booty just before they pounce.  He's straight up, no low stance and just 
kind of pacing, circling?  
 
Whatever happened to him, I'll never not blame myself I guess.  But at the same 
time, I would not want this cat in anyone else's care right now.  I trust no 
one to do the right thing as much as I trust myself.  I am not perfect, but I 
am good and I know I will make the right decisions by him.  I honestly can't 
say I know one person who if they said to me right now they would take him on 
for me and lighten my already over-bearing load (that I have made a concerted 
effort to lighten lately b/c of my new demanding job!), that I would say Okay, 
I trust you!  Ugh.  
caroline From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Date: 
Fri, 15 Aug 2008 17:23:16 + Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Seizures?  Hi,  I 
do have experience with feline seizures as I have a cat that suffered head 
trauma (before I rescued him). My cat is not aggressive in any way but he does 
display other odd behaviors. He does not play with toys and he is not 
interested in catnip. He's really not curious about anything. The phenobarbital 
is a strong sedative and I think that explains some of my cat's behavior. He is 
on a fairly high dose to help control the seizures. Have you checked the cat's 
mouth? I've found that sometimes cats freak out with medication because they 
have bad teeth or mouth sores.   Is there any possibility that the couple 
abused the cat or that the cat had a head injury? The bloodied nails are a bit 
suspicious. We have carpeting and all the times my cat has had a seizure he's 
never gotten stuck in the carpet in any way, though I imagine it could happen. 
 One common sign of brain injury or damage is when a cat walks in a tight 
circle over and over again. My cat does that and if he's doing it too much I 
have to give him extra medication to hopefully avoid a seizure.  -- Michele 
 -- Original message --  From: Caroline Kaufmann 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  I

[Felvtalk] Seizures continued

2008-08-15 Thread Caroline Kaufmann


I cut the thread down-- this is an answer to Michelle:
Unfortunately, yes, we are suspecting that and all I can say is that I do plan 
to address that with my vet on Monday b/c I can talk to him like that.  I was 
hoping he might have some insight.  I didn't want to say anything in my 
original email b/c I don't want to accuse anyone with little to no proof.  But 
the cause of the sezizures IS important to me b/c of the fact that if the cause 
is organic (dry FIP, Toxo, Tumor), then we are dealing with something 
degenerative and fatal.  Thus if his quality of life is horrible, I will do the 
right thing by him.  However, if the seizures have been induced by trauma, then 
there is the possibility that the neurological damage is finite and can be 
managed.  My mom is a classic over-reactor, but at the same time, pretty 
astute.  She did not want to adopt this cat to this lady from the get go b/c of 
the lady's oddness and obvious health problems and my mom and I both do 
profiling/matching of potential adoptive parents and we are good at it!  From 
the get go, she did not think a hyperactive kitten was right for these people- 
I agreed and I fought the good fight, but they paid their money and I got 
over-ruled.  My mom could barely handle him when I fostered him and would get 
aggravated with him, so honestly I think this is what started her down the road 
in her thinking of abuse/trauma.  She apparently did research last night and 
this solidfied her suspicions.  I am suspicious too b/c the claws.  And until I 
witness a seizure myself, that is going to bother me.  He freaks if I get near 
them- and I know they must pain him so (he essentially supposedly declawed 
himself)-- but it's just the way he reacted...I don't know-- so violent, like 
he was prepared to fight for his life over his paw- not like it hurt him to 
have it touched?  Also because of his slight neglectful appearance-- nothing 
major, but not acceptable by my standards at all!  An indoor cat with fleas?  
Hell no, not on my watch!  And I just don't believe much of what they said 
about him not ever growling before until recently?  That lil monster growled 
all the time when I fostered him- when playing with a toy or when he was 
running around and I would scoop him up, he would growl like a dog and I would 
laugh at laugh at him!  That was like a part of his personality?  I just don't 
know.  He doesn't really want me to pick him up.  I sometimes think that is 
because he thinks I'm going to treat him.  The toys- he just doesn't seem to 
know what they are.  Which breaks my heart b/c he used to be a major toy 
player.  They seem to trigger something in him so I have put them away.  I will 
have to watch for that kind of walking, but he is a stalker he does kind of 
stalk around and the only way I can describe it is like a wild cat at the zoo 
in a cage.  Pacing back and forth?  And he does this in his crate, but out too. 
 It's not a play-stalk like cats do when they get low to the ground and shake 
their booty just before they pounce.  He's straight up, no low stance and just 
kind of pacing, circling?   Whatever happened to him, I'll never not blame 
myself I guess.  But at the same time, I would not want this cat in anyone 
else's care right now.  I trust no one to do the right thing as much as I trust 
myself.  I am not perfect, but I am good and I know I will make the right 
decisions by him.  I honestly can't say I know one person who if they said to 
me right now they would take him on for me and lighten my already over-bearing 
load (that I have made a concerted effort to lighten lately b/c of my new 
demanding job!), that I would say Okay, I trust you!  Ugh.  caroline
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FW: [FIPCatSupport] FW: Transport NJ to PA to NY

2008-05-15 Thread Caroline Kaufmann





To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Thu, 15 May 2008 
23:11:16 +0200Subject: [FIPCatSupport] FW: Transport NJ to PA to NY







To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Transport NJ to PA to NYDate: Thu, 15 May 2008 10:14:49 
-0400From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] anyone send this to someone who might be able to 
help?thanks!
Carolynhttp://www.myspace.com/cmidnightskyhttp://www.catster.com/family/69657http://members.petfinder.org/~NJ17/index1.htmhttp://herekittykitty.pets911.com/org_adoptable.php?species=2-Original
 Message-From: RESCUE [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Cara Baris [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]Sent: Thu, 15 May 2008 9:38 amSubject: Transport


Contact the coordinator Barbra directly off the list at:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
Adoptapet @ optonline.net remove space before and after @ 
 
As many of you may know adoptions are way down for almost all rescues and 
shelters.  We are still trying to save as many as we can, by increasing our 
foster program until things get better.  I can’t see more animals dying because 
gas prices are up.  We assisted on a hoarder situation and need to get these 
two kitties (best buddies and with what they have already been through we 
cannot bear to separate them) upstate.  I have zero contacts along this route, 
so am begging for help.
 
Thank you all for all you do and have done for the animals!
 
 
 
 
TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE!  
We need to know ASAP if you can help
 
 
*PLEASE CROSS POST WIDELY*
 
Sunday May 18th 
 
IF YOU CAN'T HELP TRANSPORT THEN PLEASE CROSSPOST THIS TO ANYONE YOU KNOW THAT 
MIGHT BE ABLE TO HELP - or any groups you might belong to. –  
Crossposting DOES save lives!
 
 
Please spare 2 hours of your time to save these precious lives!
 
DOG TRANSPORTERS:  If you have never transported kitties don't let that stop 
you.  KITTIES ARE MUCH EASIER!  They ride in a carrier with a litterbox, sleep 
most of the way and do not need to be walked!  PLEASE HELP!
 
Please reply with your phone numbers as this is a big transport and there is 
little time to try and get it filled.
 
WE NEED YOUR HELP!  Please don't think someone else will do it!
 
If you are unable to drive, but willing to sponsor a driver by paying for their 
gas please contact me. 
 
 
ANY SIZE CAR WILL DO! 
 
The rescue group is  http://herekittykitty.pets911.com/
 
Kitties are UTD on vaccinations
FeLV/FIV tested negative
Flea treatment and wormed
 
Please let me know what leg(s) you could drive.
 
 
Sunday, May 18, 2008  
 
 
Leg 1: Woodbridge, NJ to Allentown, PA
80 miles / 1 hour 25 minutes – 1:40 PM – 3:05 PM
NEEDED  
 
Leg 2: Allentown, PA to Wilkes-Barre, PA
65 miles / 1 hour 15 minutes – 3:15 PM – 4:30 PM
NEEDED  
 
Leg 3: Wilkes-Barre, PA to Binghamton, NY
80 miles / 1 hour 20 minutes – 4:40 PM – 6:00 PM
NEEDED  
 
Leg 4: Binghamton, PA to Skaneateles, NY
78 miles / 1 hour 25 minutes – 6:10 PM – 7:35 PM
NEEDED  
  


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Victory! Kentucky takes a stand to protect pets

2008-04-28 Thread Caroline Kaufmann

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 18:35:05 + From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL
PROTECTED] Subject: Victory! Kentucky takes a stand to protect pets
** The Humane Society of the
United States KENTUCKY LEGISLATURE CRACKS DOWN ON ANIMAL TORTURE April 28,
2008 ** Dear Caroline,
Thanks to calls and emails from advocates like you, S.B. 58, Romeo's Law,
passed by the Legislature mere moments before it adjourned for the year on
April 15. And with Governor Steve Beshear's signature, Romeo's Law has now
become a reality. Lawmakers named S.B. 58 Romeo's Law, in honor of an
8-month-old yellow Labrador retriever who was beaten in Pulaski County.
Neighbors taped the tragedy, resulting in the arrest of Ronald Shawn Turner.
He was later found guilty of animal cruelty and a judge sentenced him to pay
a fine and serve time in prison. With the new law, it will be a felony to
torture a dog or cat resulting in serious physical injury or death.
Public support for the bill was overwhelming, according to Pamela Rogers,
Kentucky State Director for The HSUS. The legislative message lines were
overflowing with calls from HSUS members and other animal protection groups
and citizens from all over the state, she said. They wanted legislators to
know that Kentuckians really care about the humane treatment of animals.
Thank you for all you do for animals. Sincerely, Mike Markarian
Executive Vice President The Humane Society of the United States P.S. You
can help secure even more victories for animals by telling your friends and
family to join our online community. The more people we can reach on animal
protection issues, the better our chances for future successes.
https://community.hsus.org/ct/y7Mrql41cRY4/
Copyright (c) 2008 The Humane
Society of the United States (HSUS) All Rights Reserved. | The Humane
Society of the United States 2100 L Street, NW | Washington, DC 20037 |
202-452-1100 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |
https://community.hsus.org/ct/ydMrql41cRYX/
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RE: Holistic Vet

2008-03-21 Thread Caroline Kaufmann


Dr. Maier at http://www.horizonvetserv.com/
She does phone and email consultations.  She usually has you fax records to 
her.  She's great.   Phone and Fax: (502) 722-8231
7021 Shelbyville RdSimpsonville, KY 40067 
 
Caroline K. 


Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 22:05:22 -0500From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]: Holistic VetDoes anyone have a holistic vet that is willing to 
consult via phone or email? Autumn has uveitis in both eyes and we are 
currently treating with topical steroids. Her vet is afraid she may lose sight 
in her left eye or both as the problem seems to be sympathetic. This just 
flared up in the left eye yesterday and I got her into the vet today. I am very 
concerned that she may lose her sight. She's such and active and curious little 
person. It scares me. I know a lot of people have had great luck with lysine - 
I just need to speak to someone about these things so that I feel comfortable 
with what I'm doing. First thing, I want to do no harm. She's plumped up to 7.1 
lbs and other than her head and eyes hurting she seems happy. We have to do a 
sight test twice a day and record the results. I'm still sort of numb over 
this, I thought we had vanquished the inflammation in her right eye. Please 
help.~Susan A.
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RE: Junior

2008-03-14 Thread Caroline Kaufmann


Sally, I am so sorry.  I didn't expect this.  You and Junior made it through so 
much already.  I'm very sorry for your loss.  You did right by him- don't ever 
doubt that.  
 
Oddly, I had a dream about Monkee last night- which is rare. I haven't had a 
Monkee-dream since the night he came to take Brumley at the beginning of Feb.  
So I thought it was weird that I dreamed about him last night because it seemed 
out of place (I have all healthy fosters right now!).  With hearing this 
mornings news of Junior, it seems to make sense now.  I felt a special 
connection to Junior because you communicated to me his whole saga when I was 
struggling with Brumley's uveitis.  
 
I'm sorry for your loss.  It makes me feel a little bit better though to think 
that Monkee is like The Ambassador of the Felv Bridge Cats or 
something...?!...since he keeps showing up when it's their time to join him?  
 
Caroline K.   

Subject: RE: JuniorDate: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 10:51:01 -0500From: [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org




I'm so, so sorry for what you and Junior have been through, Sally. You did give 
him the greatest gift indeed, loving and caring for him as you did, and now 
he's no longer suffering.
You and Junior are in my thoughts,
love and hugs, Kerry


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sally DavisSent: 
Friday, March 14, 2008 10:33 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: Junior

Hi Lance and all you great parents, 
 
Junior took his last breath at the vet's today with assistance. I would like to 
say it went well, but his body was shutting down. The sedative did not calm 
him. I called the vet back into the room to go ahead and stop his misery. His 
veins were not cooperating. She had to stick him 4 times that last time she got 
a smaller needle.(Not her fault, it was the end).
 
Junior had a heart murmur and that is what was going on. I was not going to 
prolong his misery by heroics. Heroics kept him alive for two years, and that 
is my greatest gift. 
 
Please light a candle for my precious baby. My heart is breaking.  Send Junior 
to the CLS list with his brother Tiny who left me Christmas day a year ago. 
 
I will share what I can about this horrible disease. 
 
Love
 
Sally
On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 8:17 AM, Lance [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Sally,Junior will be in my prayers. I'm really sorry to hear he isn't 
doingwell.LanceOn Fri, 14 Mar 2008 08:12:42 -0400, Sally Davis [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]said:


 Junior is having much difficulty breathing. I am taking him into his 
 original vet meaning more money, but they are the only hospital available 
 now. I gave him a prenisone. His lungs sound horrible. I feel I ma saying 
 goodbye. Please pray for him. Sally -- Sally, Eric (not a cat),Junior, 
 Speedy, Grey and White, Ittle Bitty, Little Black, Lily, Daisy, Pewter, 
 Junior Junior (newest) , Silver, and Spike Please Visit my Message board for 
 some pictures. You are welcome to sign up. 
 http://www.k6az.com/ki4spk/index.php?sid=c57c00cf5804ef13853ed6e77a68eed3-- 
 Lance Linimon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sally, Eric (not a cat),Junior, Speedy, Grey 
 and White, Ittle Bitty, Little Black, Lily, Daisy, Pewter, Junior Junior 
 (newest) , Silver, and Spike Please Visit my Message board for some pictures. 
 You are welcome to sign 
 up.http://www.k6az.com/ki4spk/index.php?sid=c57c00cf5804ef13853ed6e77a68eed3 
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RE: BooBoo left us

2008-03-03 Thread Caroline Kaufmann


Lynne:
I just wanted to let you know that I felt so devastated this morning when I got 
to work and checked my email and saw the subject lines from this site and the 
FIP site.  I literally said out loud oh god, no.  I know it didn't look good 
for BooBoo after the vet said it looked like FIP too, but I always wanted to 
have hope for him.  I couldn't respond this a.m. because I ended up crying at 
work after reading some of the BooBoo emails and I didn't have it in me.  But I 
wanted to tell you that there are fates worse than death itself- and one of 
them is for a precious creature like BooBoo to have gone downhill with these 
illness(es) alone, outside- and at the mercy of wild animals and maybe even 
feral cats.  So the fact that you gave him the only love he ever knew, shelter 
in these most critical times (when he was extremely ill) and kept him from 
those other, more horrible fates..., really does mean everything in the world.  
The sacrifice that you make is that you open your heart as well as your home 
and when he leaves you, you are left with a broken heart.  We all say we want 
more time with them (I still say this about Monkee), but it's just not for us 
to make that decision so we have to do the right thing at the time and enjoy 
what little time we do have with them.  
 
I know that BooBoo is in a good place-- hopefully, he is playing with Monkee 
(even tho I always have to tell my previously alley cat, snorting, aggressive 
big boy to be nice! to other kitties), Possum and Brumley.  Possee and Brum 
were the most gentle-souled, sweet natured babies ever so I am sure they are 
taking good care of BooBoo. 
 
Caroline 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: BooBoo left usDate: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 
22:04:15 -0500



We lost our precious baby tonight.  He developed difficulty breathing and we 
rushed him to the emergency clinic.  He was dehydrated and had just had his 
lungs aspirated Friday.  The vet recently experienced the same situation with 
his Himilayan, co-incidentally, though I sometimes think they make stuff up to 
identify with your pain.
 
I held his little face in my hand and petted him as did Bob and he slipped away 
almost immediately.  I don't think I've cried this much in my life, Bob too.  
At this moment I can't imagine ever being happy again.  Sounds stupid but 
BooBoo conveyed to me this evening it was time to go and he thanked us.  He was 
so very weak he could hardly walk but he was still purring as we pet him even 
with the damn catheter in.  We know this was best for him but the worst for us.
 
Thank you all for being so very supportive.
 
Lynne
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RE: l-lysine


There's no need to give tablets, so definitely, don't put your cat thru that.  
Key for an asymptomatic Felv+ cat is to keep stress at a minimum so always keep 
that in mind- you don't want the treatment- in an attempt to keep your cat 
symptom-free- to be worse than no treatment at all!!
 
L-Lysine in powder form is readily available at health food stores like Whole 
Foods.  Get it from a health food store because you want to make sure you get 
Preservative-free L-Lysine-- no added substances- which can be especially 
dangerous for cats.  This is pretty routine at a health food store, but still 
read the packaging to be SURE it says Preservative Free.  I buy a container of 
free-form powder.  It has a tiny scooper and you just sprinkle it on top of 
canned food and mix in a little.  Cats don't even know it's there.  Or, get 
capsules- usually in 500 mgs- and open the capsule and sprinkle the powder on 
the food.  I give about 250 mg a day per cat- it's not an exact science tho.  
If you are giving to multiple cats, split the 500 mg capsule between all of 
them.  If feeding one, use part of the capsule, close it back together, and use 
the remainder the next day.  I have used both the free-form powder and capsules 
filled with powder.  Also, some health food stores do have L-Lysine in a liquid 
dropper form that you can add to food; however, I don't like this as much 
because usually other things are added to the concoction like Shitake extract, 
etc- things I am not sure are safe for cats- plus the dosing is off a lot 
because 1 dropper doesn't equal any easily identifiable mgs b/c it's a liquid- 
so I would avoid that route (altho it looks tempting).  The easiest for me is 
the container of free-form powder.
 
Also, your vet may have a product called Viralysis that is a 
liquid/jelly-like L-Lysine, so you can get it from the vet.  I have used this 
also and you measure it with a teaspoon and add to wet food.  I don't know if 
it is any better/worse than just getting it from the health food store and I 
have used it sometimes only because I get it free from vets through the foster 
care I do for a no-kill agency.  
 
L-Lysine is a natural combatant of the feline herpes virus- one of the 
bazillion culprits that can cause reoccurring upper respiratory infections in 
cats, as well as the actual herpes ulcerations (sometimes they form on the 
actual cat's eye).  But if your cat is not having ulcers, don't get too hung up 
on whether it's herpes or not and just go ahead and start the L-Lysine.  It's a 
wonderful supplement and great for all around immune boosting and every Felv+ 
cat should be on it.  I have no Felv+ cats and mine are still on it anyway in 
an attempt to keep their immune systems healthy and URIs at bay.  I take it 
myself everyday (that's why the free form powder or capsules are good b/c then 
my cats and I share it!). 
 
You should also get your cat started on Colostrum for immune support- VITAL for 
an Felv+ cat.  Comes in free-form powder and capsules also.  The best is the 
New Zealand Colostrum that is all-natural and comes from NZ cows-- NO 
PRESERVATIVES-- again, make sure it's Preservative Free.  You can probably 
order NZ Colostrum online, but don't quote me.  I get mine from a Holistic 
Veterinarian (it should be pretty routine for all Holistic vets to have this is 
stock), so you could get it that way.  Last resort is to just get it at a 
health food store like Whole Foods.  I don't think they carry the NZ brand 
which is the best, but as long as it's Preservative Free, it's better than no 
colostrum at all.  I also take this myself!  You can follow the same dosing as 
the L-Lysine for Colostrum- again, not an exact science, but that is how my 
Holistic Vet said to do it- 250 per cat, or a 500 MG cap split between all 
fosters.  For a symptomatic Felv+ cat, you can increase colostrum per day 
significantly to 500 mg/day. 
 
Hope this helps!
 
caroline  


Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:03:52 -0600From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]: l-lysineI've been looking into l-lysine to start giving to Athena - 
from what I've read, it would help. She's periodically got slightly runny eyes 
(like just eye boogers, nothing more) that the vet says could be allergy 
related but some sites I have read said if it clears up with the l-lysine it's 
something else. If we are even considering bringing another cat into the 
household I want o have her as healthy as physically possible.Anyone use 
l-lysine and what form do you use?  I've seen tablets (which I would HATE to 
have to administer) and powder forms... also, any specific type/brand to go for 
that is OK for felines ?Generally, what other supplements/therapies do you give 
consistently to non-symptomatic felv+ cats?-- Beth [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bless!!! 
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RE: more bad news


You really need to start thinking about getting him Pred.  It doesn't matter 
WHAT it is that it affecting him, but whatever it is, it is bad.  He has fluid 
in his lungs and he can't be comfortable with the aspirations.  The Pred will 
increase his quality of life and make him more comfortable (not cure him).  
You need to start thinking about Palliative Care if you want to fully do right 
by BooBoo and Pred is the best for that.  If BooBoo turns out to be a miracle 
cat and fights all this off and rallies, the Pred will not have hurt him at all.
 
Caroline 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: more bad newsDate: Wed, 27 Feb 
2008 22:10:54 -0500



Well if it isn't FIP, what could it possibly be ?  And if it isn't, and there 
is no bacterial infection in the sample sent off is it just another 
complication of feline leukemia? What kind of treatment is there for 
accumulation of fluid on the lungs other than what we're doing now.  The vet 
told me today this is the second case like this he's seen this week.  I 
truthfully don't believe these vets would deliberately withhold any kind of 
treatment if they thought it would work.  They know that we are prepared to try 
just about anything that would possibly be helpful to him.  I don't plan to 
give up on the little guy and am still reading up on other treatments but 
everything I have read so far says these animals are doomed.  I have yet to 
come across any medical information that says they can live a long and healthy 
life.  I'm not giving up on the Interferon or Prednisolone.  I also can't be 
putting this poor animal through weekly lung aspirations forever.  I can see 
complications arising from that as well.
 
Lynne

- Original Message - 
From: Belinda Sauro 
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org 
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: more bad news
Any vet that tells you this is a quack ... period
he has FIPFIP can ONLY be diagnosed with an autopsy so Boo will not get treated 
now for what he really has, I hate vets that tell people that.   There are many 
things that mimic FIP, but once the dreaded FIP word is mentioned the cat is 
doomed to die because the vet looks no further.  It sounds to me like your vet 
is tired of trying to figure out how to treat Boo and this is his way out ... 
so sad for Boo ...-- 

Belinda
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RE: more questions and thankyou


Chris- it sounds like she was a carrier?  Have you heard this term used 
before as it relates to Felv?  When Monkee tested positive for the third time, 
my vet said it didn't look good for him to just be a carrier- a cat that 
carries it in the bloodstream, but not in the bone marrow where it would 
actually be replicated and circulated throughout the whole body.  Obviously, it 
was in his bone marrow and I didn't need to put him thru a needle aspiration to 
find that out.  I think carriers-only is possible tho w/ Felv and I guess it's 
what we all hope for, especially if a cat is asymptomatic and thus, not 
viremic- aka, actively shedding the virus, then yes, it's possible to have 
multiple false negatives- and also possible for the carrier cat to not transmit 
the virus to others, no matter what the contact- b/c the cat is not shedding 
the virus.   
 
I think we all need to keep in mind that Felv is a VIRUS (despite it's 
misleading name- just as FIP has a misleading name).  Viruses in general are 
extremely complex and extremely misunderstood.  They are very complicated.  
Nothing is 100% when it comes to viruses and we need to remember that.  No 
vaccine is 100% against a virus, but on the other hand, exposure is also not 
100% for contraction.  Example, we are all exposed to the human herpes virus so 
much more than any of us of want to think- and some of us probably are carrying 
it some where in our bodies, yet we are asymptomatic- but not every single one 
of us in the world has herpes!!!  That is just one easy example, but there 
are many others for sure.  Some of us have better immune systems than others.  
Some people can be faced with an onslaught of viruses and never come down with 
anything.  We are all exposed to viruses everyday (and I do mean viruses, not 
bacteria-- altho that too!), but we aren't all sick.  Because viruses are 
ancient and they constantly mutate, it's not worth fretting over daily unless 
you are one of the researchers devoting your life to studying them them in a 
lab!  
 
We do the best we can, period.  As much as we don't want to admit it, all of 
our cats WILL die...period.  Yes, we want them to have a long, pain free life, 
but that can't always be accomplished so the best we can aim for is to give 
them a sheltered and loving life- long or short.  If you spend all of your time 
worrying and fretting over them, then you are cheating your cat out of quality 
time spent with you.  
 
caroline  


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: RE: more questions and 
thankyouDate: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 13:06:55 -0500






Dorothy
You are correct in the fact that this is what’s on the Cornell web 
site—unfortunately that site has not been updated in years and does indeed 
contain some very outdated info.  That info was then used by a variety of other 
sites as gospel and therein the dilemma.  I know there are other references, 
more recent, that verify the ‘if it dries—it dies’ construct.  I spent hours 
and hours researching when my Tucson was first diagnosed at age 5 and that 
first hit on the Cornell site gave me countless hours of sleepness nights! And 
you are correct in saying that FELV vaccine is not 100%--no vaccine is.  But 
one thing I did learn in my readings became a critical piece of info when I was 
trying to figure things out.  My Tucson had been tested when I first got her at 
about 8 weeks old  she was neg.  Then all of a sudden, almost 5 years later, 
she tested positive.  She was an indoor only cat from the moment I got her  
the other 3 cats I had, (2 of whom came in as kittens after I got Tucson) 
consistently tested neg when I had them tested as adults.  Turns out that 
depending on the ‘stage’ of the virus when snap test is administered, the 
results can be a false negative.  Indeed, the ideal protocol for kittens is to 
test at the point of weaning, and if neg, test again no sooner than 6-9 
months—of course, that would eliminate all adoptions!  Anyway, based on my 
personal experience (such as it is)  the exhaustive reading and consulting I 
did, I (and the 2 vets who treated Tucson) were convinced beyond a shadow of a 
doubt that she harbored the virus all along.  And, it is not such a 
transmittable disease because the 3 cats she lived with all those years are 
still neg, still share food/water dishes, litter boxes etc.  The only changes I 
made after Tucson’s diagnosis was to vaccinate the other 3—and yes, I took in  
a stray I’d been feeding for two years who was never sick a day in his life and 
he turned out to be positive…   
 
Christiane Biagi
914-632-4672
Cell:  914-720-6888
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
Katrina Animal Reunion Team (KART)
www.findkpets.org
 
Join Us  Help Reunite Katrina-displaced Families with their Animals

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dorothy 
NobleSent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 12:26 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: more 
questions and thankyou
 

You are welcome to describe my information as

FIV


Does anyone have any direct experience with FIV that they can pass on to me?  I 
know the gist of course, since I foster cats and have met and lost the battle 
to- both Felv and FIP in the past year (ugh).  I have heard that cats with FIV 
can be fairly successful- live heathly lives barely affected by the disease (is 
this true?), and it really is a lot like human HIV?  I have also heard this is 
the one retroviruses that is transmitted by deep bite wounds and NOT casual 
contact?
 
I am going to help a man who has taken in a alley cat that hung around his 
house for about 3 years that tested positive of FIV.  He was clearly neutered 
by alley cat advocates b/c he has a tipped ear.  He says it's a wonderful, 
approx. 5 yo tuxie.  He has him in the bedroom for now (his only room with a 
door in his house) because his own cat is an extremely aggressive, neutered 
male and after 3 years of the tuxie hanging around outside, and being in the 
house for a while now- they can't sort out their differences and they will 
fight.  He wishes he could keep the cat but with his cat- being such an 
aggressive fighter, and the tuxie being a fighter when need be (alley cat 
mentality)-- he just doesn't see it as possible due to transmission to his cat. 
 
 
The cat did get outside and got in a fight recently- ended up with an abcess on 
his ear- being treated by a vet, stint put in and he has a f-u next week- but 
it was at that appointment that the vet found the FIV and said segregate!- as 
they always do.
 
I am going to work to get the cat into our adoption program as a special 
needs cat in the hopes that someone w/o other cats, with a non-aggressive cat, 
with a docile female, with other FIV cats, etc., would be willing to take him 
on.  In the meantime, this man has agreed to continue to foster him in his 
home while I work to help him out with the situation.   
 
In the meantime, I want to build up my knowledge so that I have talking 
points for potential adoptive parents and I can educate if someone w/o prior 
FIV experience is willing to take him.  The man seems to understand that he 
could have a cat on his hands with something a lot worse (like Felv or FIP), so 
he's definitely not an overreactor and he seems well-educated.  
 
Any info that anyone has will be great!  Especially PERSONAL EXPERIENCE and/or 
accurate and trustworthy websites I can read and pass on to others!
 
thanks,
Caroline  
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RE: more bad news

2008-02-27 Thread Caroline Kaufmann


Lynne:
Join [EMAIL PROTECTED] now.  This is most likely what my Brumley died from, if 
you want to go back and read my posts from the archives.  FIP is complicated 
and very very very difficult for, shall I say, run-of-the-mill vets to 
diagnose.  So you need this group's support and expertise now.  Some people on 
this site have had experience with FIP, but the real knowledgeable people are 
on this yahoo group.  I am a member.  One of the current theories is that it 
may actually be vaccination or over vaccination and/or vaccination of an 
already immune compromised cat that causes the corona virus to mutate into FIP 
in an individual cat.  It's an inappropriate immune response.  Some people 
think there's been an influx of recent FIP cases and they are looking into the 
pet food recalls and poisonings of late as a possible contributing 
factor/cause, hence the tie in with the importance of a great diet which the 
FIP group seems to be leading the charge on.
 
I too when thru the same thing of wanting to blame someone with Brumley, 
however, right now there is just not enough known about FIP and there seems to 
be so many inexplicable things and unknown, maybe even not preventable factors 
that could cause it.  There's just so many unknowns.  So all you can really do 
for now is join this yahoo group and I promise, you will immediately gets lots 
of support and answers if you start asking questions right away.
 
caroline  


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: more bad newsDate: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 
15:45:05 -0500



Well just when you think it can't get any worse it does.  BooBoo's cytology 
came back today and he has FIP as well as feline leukemia.  There was no 
bacteria in it. There is nothing left for us to do for him.  There was no 
bacteria in the culture, just protein and fibres, because his blood vessels are 
leaky.  The vet says all we can do is make him comfortable and at this point it 
is all about quality of life.  He will continue to drain his lungs every week 
to 10 days and keep him on this antibiotic until it is finished and only Lasix 
once a day, which I guess does nothing for this lung fluid.  If he becomes 
worse, ie he has to have the fluid drained more frequently then we will have to 
do the obvious.  We will put on a good face for our dear boy and do everything 
we can to keep him with us as long as we can but it isn't looking too good at 
the moment.  The vet said they had another cat in this week that tested 
positive for FIP but not leukemia.  He said BooBoo has been hit with a double 
blow and unfortunately the end is near.  I don't know if the Factor stuff will 
make it here before Boo dies but I'm trying to be realistic here now and face 
the inevitable.  My husband and I are horribly sad about this but I'm getting 
angry now at these criminals who owned him and lied to me about his being 
healthy and vaccinated.  We have several top notch lawyers in our practice who 
like me a lot and would do me a favor if I asked.  I'm seriously considering 
consulting with one of them when this tragedy is over.
 
Lynne
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RE: more bad news

2008-02-27 Thread Caroline Kaufmann


Lynne: Definitely join the Yahoo FIP Group- link I sent already.  You will 
learn from them the difference btw wet and dry FIP, ways to diagnosis (actual 
testing of fluid (the effusion) is better than just a blood titer test- but 
still not 100%- 100% is still only on necropsy any vet that will tell you 
otherwise is probably not in the know).  Unfortunately, with FIP, altho you 
feel like you are alone on an island, you aren't and you aren't reinventing 
the wheel when it comes to diagnosis and treatment.  Sadly, thousands of 
people have dealt with it before and have experience with your particular 
issues that BooBoo is facing.  Trust me.  It's overwhelming the support and 
insight you will get from this group.  It has a very very active membership.  
 
caroline 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: more bad newsDate: Wed, 27 Feb 
2008 17:13:01 -0500



I'm so sorry Lynne.  I have had two kitties who died of FIP (one had leukemia, 
too).  The difference in what you describe about BooBoo is that the fluid was 
strictly in their abdomens--not connected with their lungs at all.  My vet says 
that there are two types of FIP--dry and wet.  The wet, which mine both had, 
results in so much fluid in the abdomen that the cat looks pregnant.  My 
kitties enjoyed their lives until it became obvious they no longer did--and I 
had them put down.  
 
My vet said at the time that while he was sure they had FIP, there was no test 
that proved it for sure.  Only necropsy.
 
Enjoy BooBoo as long as you canI do hope you take some type of legal action 
against those horrible people.  They should never be allowed to have any kind 
of animal!!

- Original Message - 
From: Lynne 
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org 
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: more bad news

I don't know Kelly.  He sent it off to a lab and specifically tested for it 
along with culturing the fluid.  I have to assume if he tested positive and all 
the symptoms he has are those of an infected animal that he has it.  Don't I 
wish there could have been an error but I'm at the point where I have to accept 
where this is going.  I just want to keep him unstressed and comfortable.  
Unless there is some miracle drug that can repair all his blood vessels I'm 
screwed.
 
Lynne

- Original Message - 
From: Kelley Saveika 
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org 
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: more bad news

Wait, wait.  What test did the vet use to test for FIP?  There *is* an FIP test 
which is fairly accurate, but most vets don't even know about it.  It is called 
Rivalta's test:
 
This is a test with which few veterinarians are familiar but it can be very 
helpful in the diagnosis of FIP.   A test tube is filled with distilled water 
and one drop of 98% acetic acid is added. To this mixture one drop of effusion 
is added. If the drop dissipates, the test is negative. If the drop retains its 
shape, the test is positive.  A negative Rivalta's test is 97% accurate in 
ruling out FIP. A positive test is 86% accurate in ruling in FIP.
Source:  http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_fip.html
 
If you are talking about a titer test - almost all cats will test positive for 
coronavirus titers.  
 
On 2/27/08, Lynne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 


Well just when you think it can't get any worse it does.  BooBoo's cytology 
came back today and he has FIP as well as feline leukemia.  There was no 
bacteria in it. There is nothing left for us to do for him.  There was no 
bacteria in the culture, just protein and fibres, because his blood vessels are 
leaky.  The vet says all we can do is make him comfortable and at this point it 
is all about quality of life.  He will continue to drain his lungs every week 
to 10 days and keep him on this antibiotic until it is finished and only Lasix 
once a day, which I guess does nothing for this lung fluid.  If he becomes 
worse, ie he has to have the fluid drained more frequently then we will have to 
do the obvious.  We will put on a good face for our dear boy and do everything 
we can to keep him with us as long as we can but it isn't looking too good at 
the moment.  The vet said they had another cat in this week that tested 
positive for FIP but not leukemia.  He said BooBoo has been hit with a double 
blow and unfortunately the end is near.  I don't know if the Factor stuff will 
make it here before Boo dies but I'm trying to be realistic here now and face 
the inevitable.  My husband and I are horribly sad about this but I'm getting 
angry now at these criminals who owned him and lied to me about his being 
healthy and vaccinated.  We have several top notch lawyers in our practice who 
like me a lot and would do me a favor if I asked.  I'm seriously considering 
consulting with one of them when this tragedy is over.
 
Lynne-- Rescuties - Saving the world, one cat at a 
time.http://www.rescuties.orgVist the Rescuties store and save a kitty

RE: Boo's vet adventure

2008-02-14 Thread Caroline Kaufmann


Plus, since she's a kitten, she needs to be retested in 6 months anyway b/c of 
the false positives and the possible throwing of the virus  I feel like 
terror/sadness/decision-making needs to definitely be reserved (for later if 
need be) when it's a kitten that tests Felv+...there is always hope when it's a 
kitten.
caroline


Subject: RE: Boo's vet adventureDate: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:31:17 -0600From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org




Gosh Lynne, a lot of good things did happen today...your vet sounds such a 
sweetie. And, the new babe you met. I wonder if your vet encouraged them to 
keep her, and get educated, given that he's one of the enlightened ones? 
Wow.keep us posted. 
Kerry
 
 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of LynneSent: 
Thursday, February 14, 2008 5:08 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Boo's vet adventure

We just got home from visiting the vet and will be picking up the Doxycycline 
tomorrow.  It's being made of all places at the pharmacy across the hall from 
where I work so I can get it there instead of going back to the vets.  These 
folks make up Lennies transdermal thyroid medication and don't charge me a 
dispensing fee so good for me.  I know I'll get a good price on the Doxycycline 
and Interferon.  The Doxy is a liquid, chicken flavored one and the vet is 
going to teach me to administer the Interferon.  We don't really know if this 
will make a big difference but are willing to try.  That will be in next week 
and to my absolute shock, it isn't anywhere near what I expected it to be cost 
wise.  It's peanuts compared to what we've spent in cat food alone for this guy.
 
BooBoo really likes Dr. Gill.  He is by the way running a slight fever so it is 
important to get this antibiotic in him.  When we came home, BooBoo came down 
the stairs all on his own, into the kitchen and ate some food.  He doesn't 
spend much time down here, just upstairs on the bed.
 
When we were at the vets Dr. Gill told us about a family who brought their cat 
in today, an 11 month old female for neutering and discovered she was positive 
for FelV.  I guess they were all crying and needed to make a decision about 
keeping her or euthanizing her.  They have 2 other cats at home who tested 
negative as well but they share everything so who knows what will happen in the 
future.  Bottom line is, I think this was a ploy on Dr. Gill's part because he 
really loves this Baby cat and said he'd keep her if he didn't already have 2 
cats at home and he didn't want to have to tsend her to the humane society 
because they just euthanize them.  Of course after introducing her to BooBoo 
and us we said we'd take her if they decide to have her put down.  I can't 
believe this.  Her blood work came back perfect so she' showing no signs of the 
disease yet.  She's adorable, a golden color with black feet and some black 
stripes.  They would pay for the neutering and adoption process if we took her. 
 He didn't charge us for this visit either.  So I guess it was a good day.  I 
don't know what the future holds for BooBoo but Bob and I have decided to give 
him every opportunity we can and just enjoy him while he's here.
 
Lynne
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RE: More vaccine info/resources

2008-02-11 Thread Caroline Kaufmann


I think that sounds like a well-informed decision, taking into account the 
unique factors of your household.  I think that is all we are really looking 
for people to with the new vaccination info we are learning more about each day 
anyway-- to just be more informed and not just go instantly with what a vet 
says and to take the individual needs and circumstances of the cat, and it's 
household, into consideration.  
 
So, kudos to you Lynne!  You are doing right by BooBoo.  
 
Caroline 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: More vaccine 
info/resourcesDate: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 15:56:04 -0500



Thanks Marlene for all this information.  I always have had our cats vaccinated 
but with BooBoo, I honestly don't think I'm going to have any done with him.  
He's between 4 and 6 years of age, has feline leukemia, is becoming anemic and 
will never step outside of a house again.  He doesn't want to anyway, not even 
into the patio for some fresh air.  It's too cold and mostly he sleeps.  He may 
want to in the spring but he isn't going to be subjected to any animal with 
diseases.  Our 19 year old wants nothing to do with him and by choice they 
spend their time in different parts of the house with their own litter boxes, 
food dishes etc.  I just don't want to take any risks with this little guy.  
The most I'm going to do is consider immuno regulin for him.  His vet is 
looking into it this week.
 
Lynne

- Original Message - 
From: Caroline Kaufmann 
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org 
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 11:31 AM
Subject: More vaccine info/resources
More vaccine info from the FIP group...caroline Hi all, I did notice on this 
list and general feline health lists that fluboosters can cause adverse 
reactions in cats and in some cases mighthave triggered FIP. Please ask your 
vet to report each adverse reactionas I'm pretty sure adverse reactions are 
under reported. Your vet shouldmake a note in your cat's medical file when your 
cat doesn't seem tosupport well some type/brand of vaccine. Please don't over 
vaccinate your cats and ask only for core vaccinesunless there is a good reason 
to use a non-core vaccine. Most corevaccines are effective for at least 3 years 
so it's not really necessaryto give a yearly vaccine. Remember that your vet 
should perform a healthcheck-up before vaccination and never vaccinate cats 
that don't seem tobe healthy. Here are some good links on vaccination and 
guidelines. After readingthose you might want to assess together with your vet 
which vaccinesyour cat really needs and how frequent your cat should get 
them. http://www.fabcats.org/owners/vaccination/info.html 
http://www.fabcats.org/cat_group/policy_statements/vacc.html 
http://www.fabcats.org/owners/cat_flu/vaccination.html 
http://www.fabcats.org/owners/cat_flu/limping_syndrome.html Kind regards, 
Marleen

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Info re: vaccinating Felv+ cats (and cats with other retroviruses)

2008-02-11 Thread Caroline Kaufmann


From the moderator of the FIP website.  I hope this helps.
caroline 
 
Hi Caroline,I reposted my message about vaccination.I found some info regarding 
vaccination of retro-virus infected 
cats:http://www.aafponline.org/resources/guidelines/2006_Vaccination_Guidelines_JAVMA.pdfVaccination
 of retrovirus-infected catsRetrovirus-infected cats should be housed 
indoorsand isolated from unvaccinated cats to diminish theirlikelihood of 
infecting others and to reduce their exposureto other infectious agents or 
trauma. The AdvisoryPanel recommends that core vaccines (FPV, FHV-1,FCV, and 
rabies virus) be administered to FeLV-infectedcats; noncore vaccines should be 
given only if therisk of patient exposure justifies their use. Cats 
infectedwith FeLV may not be able to mount adequateimmune responses to 
vaccination against rabies virusand perhaps to other vaccines as well.c 
Therefore, protectioninduced by vaccines in FeLV-infected cats maynot be 
comparable to that achieved in uninfected cats.Experimental evidence indicates 
that FIV-infectedcats are capable of mounting immune responses toadministered 
antigens, except during the terminalphase of infection, although these 
responses may bedelayed or diminished.31-35 Results of studies32,36 todetermine 
whether immune stimulation (eg, vaccination)accelerates the course of 
FIV-induced immunodeficiencyare conflicting, but a potential trade-off 
toprotection from disease by vaccination is progressionof FIV infection 
secondary to increased viral production.The Advisory Panel recommends that core 
vaccinesbe administered to FIV-infected cats, but noncorevaccines should be 
given only if the risk of patientexposure justifies their use. In 1 study,37 
cats experimentallyinfected with FIV developed vaccine-inducedpanleukopenia 
when given modified-live FPV vaccines.Whether cats naturally infected with FIV 
are atincreased risk of developing vaccine-induced diseasefrom residual 
virulence of infectious vaccines is notknown; however, administration of 
noninfectious vaccinesis preferred whenever available.Kind regards,Marleen
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More vaccine info/resources

2008-02-11 Thread Caroline Kaufmann


More vaccine info from the FIP group...
caroline
 Hi all, I did notice on this list and general feline health lists that 
fluboosters can cause adverse reactions in cats and in some cases mighthave 
triggered FIP. Please ask your vet to report each adverse reactionas I'm pretty 
sure adverse reactions are under reported. Your vet shouldmake a note in your 
cat's medical file when your cat doesn't seem tosupport well some type/brand of 
vaccine. Please don't over vaccinate your cats and ask only for core 
vaccinesunless there is a good reason to use a non-core vaccine. Most 
corevaccines are effective for at least 3 years so it's not really necessaryto 
give a yearly vaccine. Remember that your vet should perform a healthcheck-up 
before vaccination and never vaccinate cats that don't seem tobe healthy. 
Here are some good links on vaccination and guidelines. After readingthose you 
might want to assess together with your vet which vaccinesyour cat really needs 
and how frequent your cat should get them. 
http://www.fabcats.org/owners/vaccination/info.html 
http://www.fabcats.org/cat_group/policy_statements/vacc.html 
http://www.fabcats.org/owners/cat_flu/vaccination.html 
http://www.fabcats.org/owners/cat_flu/limping_syndrome.html Kind regards, 
Marleen
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RE: BooBoo is home!!


Lynne: That's great that he came through it fine.  He sounds very happy.  
Neutered males crack me up b/c they don't seem to miss a beat after their 
surgery!  It's like nothing happened!  
 
Don't get depressed...it's not time for that.  He sounds like he's doing really 
well.  What else about the blood work was bad?  Was it just the anemia?  It's 
possible he had such bad fleas and a lack of nutrition that he could have flea 
anemia and thus, it could be reversible.  Don't despair yet.  
 
Something to try...I know it's gross, but I am a vegetarian and I got over 
it...is raw chicken livers and raw lean beef.  My holistic vet had me feeding 
this to Monkee for his anemia.  It's literally one of the best things you can 
do naturally to help combat the anemia.  Just get a tub of chicken livers from 
the grocery- I personally got the ones that were Free Range, non-hormone fed 
chickens, or ones labeled organic b/c you don't really need him getting 
anything else that is bad for him right now.  Chicken livers are tough so I 
would cut them up as best as I could and they became kind of a mush.  You want 
to serve them room temperature, but DO NOT MICROWAVE THEM-- eww- the smell-- 
and you want them just room temp, not cooked- they still need to be raw.  I 
would warm them by kind of a double-boiler process where I put the livers I was 
going to serve in a small bowl in a pot of hot/warm water to bring them to room 
temp.  If BooBoo has trouble eating the raw livers, you can also blend or grind 
them.  I used a blender myself when Monkee got weaker and seemed to need the 
pieces really cut up, so yeah, Monkee ended up with his own blender after that. 
 As for the beef, you want lean ground sirloin that is low fat.  I went to 
Whole Foods and actually got Monkee a thing of organic ground Buffalo.  I was 
getting such a small amount (b/c I didn't know if he would eat it) that the 
butcher didn't even charge me when I told him it was for my sick cat.  Monkee 
loved the Buffalo and it was actually one of the last things he ate.  Again, 
serve it room temp, RAW, and cut it up- even tho it's ground, you still need to 
make bite size kitty pieces.  The chicken liver blood poured on top of the beef 
is also really good- Monkee loved it and it's so good for treating anemia.   
 
You have nothing to lose, so you should try it.  BooBoo will love love love it 
I am sure and it will be a nice natural treatment for his anemia.  I would 
definitely try it before you start throwing drugs at him-- at least to see if 
it's just a flea anemia or anemia brought about by lack of food and proper 
care, as opposed to actual Felv anemia.   
 
If you are interested in the homeopathic/holistic care- which I think BooBoo 
could really benefit from b/c he had such a hard time before you found him- you 
could look for a vet in your area that is a homeopathic vet.  Mine is a regular 
vet in addition to being a homeopathic vet.  
 
One of the homeopathic treatments for anemia is Phosphorus.  You can get it at 
a health foods store like Whole Foods.  You want the 30c pellets.  You can add 
them to food or directly administer to the mouth, but the pills are tiny so I 
would sometimes crush them and put them in cat milk- something like that.  Give 
3-5 pellets 3 times a day.  ***Again- I'm not prescribing drugs here- just so 
everyone is clear- homeopathics don't have an contraindications or 
side-affects.  This is the dose my holistic vet gave me for Monkee when his 
anemia was active.  It's another thing to try b/c you have nothing to lose- 
there's no dangers in trying it.  
 
caroline 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: BooBoo is home!!Date: Fri, 8 Feb 
2008 16:12:45 -0500



BooBoo just came home from his neutering.  He had no trouble whatsoever with 
the anesthesia, has eaten, had a drink and can't stop purring.  He's really 
happy to be home.  The vet went over his blood work with us and told us it 
didn't look good.  He's already anemic.  I was so hoping for some good news.  
He's checking into some drugs for the future if needed and we choose to go that 
route.  He said they are very expensive.  This whole experience has sucked the 
life out of me.  I look at this precious little guy and he has absolutely no 
signs of a disease yet I know he does.  I am so angry with his previous owners 
right now.  They emailed me last week when I told them the news and they pretty 
much suggested that we gave him this disease because he was always healthy and 
happy.  This coming from a family who never took him to a vet.  He was a mess 
when we got him, totally matted, fleas and a terrible case of earmites.  Now 
he's beautifully groomed, clean and seemingly overjoyed at being here.  This 
all so totally new to me.  We've never had a pet with an illness, let alone 
something like this.  I swear I'm becomming depressed.  I'm not gonna let 
BooBoo know it though.  
 
Lynne

RE: spooked about vaccinations


Marie:
There's lost of info out there now about over-vaccination, so it's something to 
look into.  You can google that term as it is related to cats and you will find 
a ton of info.  If the cat is healthy, then generally vaccinations are safe.  
However, it's important to realize that a vaccination triggers an immune 
response in the body.  In a cat with a defective immune system due to Felv, 
this can definitely cause additional problems.  Vaccines are stressful even for 
a healthy cat and many people are getting away from doing them.  The frequent 
adverse reactions that a completely healthy cat will have to a Rabies and/or 
an FVRCP shot I believe is evidence of the fact that they are stressful to the 
cat's body and immune system.
 
A lot of vets- with homeopathic/holistic mostly leading the charge, but 
conventional vets are doing it now too- now recommend running titers to 
detect any antibodies in the blood first before doing any vaccs.  If there are 
antibodies present in the blood already, there really isn't a need for that 
vacc.  I recommend asking your vet merely to check for titers first before 
considering any additional vaccs.
 
As to the Rabies shot, there is new evidence out there now that appears to 
demonstrate that one Rabies shot should be sufficient, especially for an indoor 
cat, for the lenght of the cat's life.  Another thing to google is the 
incidence of rabies in felines in your areaI bet you it's non-existent.  
Because rabies is not the problem it used to be and one shot appears to protect 
a cat for life, a lot of people are moving away from having rabies done again.  
There is a waiver form your vet can fill out and you submit that allows you to 
get out of having a rabies done.  My holistic vet has mentioned doing this many 
times.  I personally haven't done this yet, but I know a lot of people on the 
FIP support group who are doing this now.  Many of them feel that vaccines are 
one of the triggers for a cat who mutates the coronavirus into FIP.  Many of 
them had perfectly healthy cats until just after first shots and/or boosters 
were done, so they are on the cutting edge of the anti-vaccine movement 
currently and most of the information I am passing on to you I have gotten from 
them and also my holistic vet.  Since I feel that Brumley most likely had FIP, 
I also wonder if the vaccs he was given when already stressed from being at 
Animal Control as a baby, not being nursed long enough, if at all, being 
neutered immediately at 2 lbs, suffering from reoccurring URIs and being 
vaccinated on top of all that, could definitely have been the trigger for that 
poor little guy's body inappropriate mutation of the coronavirus into FIP.  So 
I am myself taking a serious look at the vaccine issue and plan to go the titer 
route when it comes to my cats needed boosters, etc.
 
I will try to get more direct info from the FIP group (website links with info, 
etc.) and pass it on to this site.  
 
caroline 


Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 14:36:44 -0800From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: spooked about 
vaccinationsTo: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
Hello,
 
I haven't been posting in a while. A year ago, I had a cat who died within 
several weeks of being dx with feline leukemia. Other than ocassionally 
sneezing, Cakooie seemed like a healthy kitty. He was my first cat, so there 
was a lot i didn't know about feline dieases. But he ate well and was playful. 
Then three weeks after he had his vaccinations, he went down quickly. 
 
His sister, Chica, has tested negative twice within 90 days. I think she will 
be okay. It's time to have her vaccinations again, and I'm just scared because 
of what happened to my other cat. I know the vaccinations didn't cause him to 
get leukemia. I think they did make him worse. He was vaccinated for rabies and 
distemper. 
 
Chica is an indoor cat, so I don't know what vaccinations she really needs. 
Rabies is required. She probably should get a booster for distemper. 
 
Do you think after two negative tests and a good checkup that it is safe to 
assume she's felv free? Are vaccinations generally safe? 
 
Thanks for your input. 
 
Marie


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Vaccines- To Marie


Marie:
Here's the info from the FIP site I promised.  
 
Dr Blake states his opinion and that of Dr Richard Pitcairn and others on his 
website at http://www.thepetwhisperer.com/Vaccinations.html He also lists a 
large number of links giving information about vaccinations for animals and 
your whole family. 
 
There is no reason to vaccinate a healthy indoor cat ... much less one who is 
already compromised. Dr Blake has signed  a medical exception form for his 
patients who are ill or have conditions that a rabies shot would cause damage 
to or further compromise an existing condition. Alot of conventional vets will 
refuse to do it but most holistic/homeopathic vets will. You may have to look 
for someone willing to put their signature on the line.
 
From Anne Martin;
 
One person/university setting that comes to mind is Ron Schultz at the 
University of Wisconsin, Madison. He's the one, you might recall, who did the 
landmark (and generally ignored, though scientifically validated) work years 
ago that demonstrated that booster vaccines are useless, since they confer no 
'additional immunity' whatsoever owing to the presence of antibodies from 
previous vaccines.  The implications this has for how vet clinics do business 
are staggering.  He also, as I understand it, is the one who lobbied for and 
got the financing to do a seven-year study, just started, looking at the REAL 
length of immunity conferred by one rabies vaccine.  
Hope that gets you what you need
 
Caroline 
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RE: Immuno-Regullin and exercise


I don't know about the IR, but as far as the vaccs- it sounds like he handled 
them fine, so there's no need to stress yourself out about it now.  Now you 
know better tho and can better protect him in the future by being better 
educated.  
 
And you are very to lucky to have found this site so early on.  I only got to 
it when Monkee was in the throws of the illness and most hope was lost.  And I 
felt horrible when I realized all the knowledge and information that was out 
there on the internet that I didn't think to take advantage of.  I just took 
Monkee's incredible health for granted and thought if I kept him happy and not 
stressed, his beefy body would beat the odds.  When I realized I could have 
been more proactive with things- like no vaccs, better diet, supplements, even 
meds to ward off the disease, I felt horrible, but I didn't have time or energy 
to cry over spilled milk at the time b/c I was so desperate for immediate help 
with Monkee's sick condition.  It's since his passing that I realized the depth 
of what I allowed myself to miss out on.  Could any of those things have made a 
difference in Monkee's individual case?  I don't know?  I never will.  But if I 
can help someone else get to resources and better information SOONER than I 
did, then my guilt is lessened.  
 
You should feel really happy that you are taking full advantage of what is out 
there now- early- while Buzz is healthy.  You have the chance to do all you can 
for him early on.  
 
Don't worry about him playing- if he's happy and healthy for now and he wants 
to run around like a maniac and play toys, by all means, let him do it.  It's 
important to not treat him like an invalid, especially if he does not feel like 
one/doesn't know he is one b/c he will pick up on that.  For most of Monkee's 
illness my mom kept telling me to stop crying around him and treating him like 
an invalid because at that point (until the last 2 wks), he didn't know he was 
sick- even when he was getting chemo.  She didn't want Monkee to pick up on my 
cues and then in turn, get depressed and get further stressed.  Asymptomatic 
Felv cats don't know they are sick, so allowing him to play and act like a 
normal boy is all part of providing him a stress-free environment which is 
really key for Felv+ cats.
 
caroline 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Immuno-Regullin and exerciseDate: 
Fri, 8 Feb 2008 21:32:52 -0500



When is the best time to start Immuno-Regulin?  When they still have no 
symptoms?  I can still hardly believe Buzz has this horrible disease.  He seems 
so healthy and loves to play and has a great appetite.  How often do the 
success stories like Minstrels come along?  These postings have so much new 
information and the internet sights have so much conflicting information that 
it is hard to know what to think.  I just know the little guy cleaning himself 
in my lap right now deserves all I can do for him.
Does anyone know if a lot of playing exercise is good for a FeLV + cat? He 
chases his toys so hard that he gets out of breath sometimes.
Buzz had some vaccinations about a month ago, is he still in danger?
I have always had cats but this is so new and I feel so ignorant.  I am so glad 
for this site, I have already learned more real information that seems like it 
will actually help Buzz then from all the reading I've done for the last 
several weeks since I learned he was FeLV positive.
Thank you everybody for all your advise.
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RE: fixing a leukemia kitty

2008-02-07 Thread Caroline Kaufmann


If he's healthy now, then do it.  Feleuk cats are prone to cancers- a lot of 
times, that is what gets them in the end, particularly lymphoscarcoma.  
Lymphosarcoma is the most common form of cancer in cats and dogs- feleuk or 
otherwise.  But the incidence in Felv+ cats is even higher.  This is what my 
cat Monkee came down with (found a lump on his leg).  If neutering would 
further reduce his risk of cancer, then it's worth the small risk of putting 
him under but if he is indeed Feleuk positive, then he has double the chances 
of getting some time of cancer.  And it's true that a neuter is a much simpler 
operation than a spay and there's basically no recovery issues- assuming there 
are no complications (unlike the frequent popped stitches that come with 
spaying).  The group I volunteer for is currently working it's way through 
fixing an entire colony of Felv+ feral cats and there haven't been any 
problems.  And they are feral-- which I should think the stress of the 
catching, surgery, immediate release, must be even worse for them, so if they 
can handle it, your boy who's asymptomatic, healthy now that he's with you, and 
getting love and affection, will be fine.
caroline 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: fixing a leukemia kittyDate: 
Wed, 6 Feb 2008 21:33:58 -0600



Lynne, my friend has all her feline leukemia kitties altered. I think one, in 
20 years, had a problem.
At least for a female, our vet believes the stress of the regular heat cycle 
would be greater than that of the spay. And you are right that an unneutered 
male is at risk of certain cancers...and he's already potentially immune 
compromised. 
 
We had Isabella scheduled for her spay 2 or 3 times and each time she had a 
temp so we didn't do it. When she got so bad that we needed an ultrasound, the 
vet discovered she had hemaclips or something like that which meant she was 
already spayed. Boy were we relieved that we had not put her under and had cut 
open unnecessarily! (The vet had shaved her when we first rescued her and could 
not find a spay scar). 
 
I would not be as worried about a neuter as a spay ~ if Boo is otherwise in 
good health and esp since he's not going to be vaccinated now. We did not 
vaccinate Isabella. I have watched a neuter being done. It takes no time at 
all. He won't be under long. I would ask whether they do a reversal and if the 
vet thinks this is a good idea for him.Bottom line for me ~ if the vet thinks 
it's ok to do the alter, I would be inclined to do it. Afterall, I am sure he 
doesn't want a poor result.
 
Laurie
 

- Original Message - 
From: Lynne 
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org 
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 8:54 PM
Subject: Re: fixing a leukemia kitty

Dorothy, believe me, this is weighing heavy on my mind.  He's scheduled to go 
in this Friday.  The vet assured me he was healthy and up to it.  If it were a 
spaying I probably would definitely be worried since I think it is a more 
complicated surgery.  I still have tomorrow to reconsider.  I would definitely 
be happier if his urine were not so strong smelling and I have read that 
neutered cats can be healthier, ie less likely to develop prostate or other 
cancers so I'm really torn as to which way to go.  I do not want him to be 
wanting to go out.  The first night we had him the little buggar went upstairs 
and peed in an unoccupied bedroom and it took two days to clean, air the place 
and get the smell out.  We had his litter box ready but he chose to mark this 
room.  The door has since been closed and he faithfully uses his litter box but 
once the breeding season comes, I don't know what he'll do.  What do the rest 
of you think.  Should I hold off on this surgery?  Boo is somewhere between 4 
and 6 years old, kind of old for neutering but I truly want what's best for him.
 
Thanks Dorothy for your input.
 
Lynne

- Original Message - 
From: Dorothy Noble 
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org 
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 9:36 PM
Subject: fixing a leukemia kitty

I was reading Lynne's postings about her new cat being neutered this weekend -
I just wanted to pass along a little ifo I had received from a society in 
Missouri. 
 
I was looking to adopt a FeLV kitty (to be a friend to my other FeLV) and I was 
inquiring about cats that they had.  I asked if they would be spayed or 
neutered prior to adoption and she emphatically said NO.  She said that if they 
were not already fixed, they definitely do NOT recommend t hat type of surgery 
on a cat with leukemia, due to their already fragile immune systems.  (I chose 
to wait until I could find one who was already fixed because I definitely like 
my cats to be altered.)
 
Just a little food for thought - I would hate to have something happen to your 
friend during a surgery!
Dorothy


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Helping your

RE: fixing a leukemia kitty

2008-02-07 Thread Caroline Kaufmann


I know we give Thuja on the day of any vaccinations to help the body deal with 
that stress and the immune response.  I have the dose at home and can't 
remember it now.  Dr. Maier says Thuja is a must to have on hand when doing 
rescue work.  It's also given to any cat that had vaccs in the past to try to 
detox.  It's for detoxing mainly.  I'm not an expert so I don't know if it can 
be used for post-surgery reasons or not?  Altho I did buy the cat rescue kit of 
homepathic meds from Washington Homeopathy and the book Dr. Maier recommended 
on homeopathic care for cats.  I can look thru the book tonight to see if there 
are any remedies to be given post-surgery.  And the good thing with homeopathy 
is that it's not like it's prescribing drugs or anything- everything is safe 
and can be used in conjunction with conventional care and conventional drugs.  
 
We regularly use the cat nap spray from Dr. Maier all the time to reduce 
stress- it's aromaptherapy for cats.  I have a warm humidifier I use in my room 
and instead of putting liquid Vicks in the reservoir, I would pour the cat nap 
in it!  The Late Great Possum (Possee) LOVED IT!  He must have been so cold all 
the time and he worshipped the humidifier and I'sm sure the aromatherapy helped 
b/c that little guy never knew anything was wrong with him!  
 
I think Dr. Maier relies mostly on her homemade flower essences for stress and 
I guess store bought Rescue Remedy can always be used if you don't have a 
homeopathic vet to mix up an individualized formula for you.  
 
I know some people say it doesn't work, but the last thing I put in Monkee's 
mouth literally as he was dying in my arms and struggling to breathe was Dr. 
Maier's flower essences (I didn't know what else to do- it was terrifying) and 
I swear those eased his passing b/c it did happen so fast and he struggled very 
briefly.  Then of course my mom and I both started spraying Rescue Rem in our 
own mouths (b/c she was with me when Monkee died) and we were verging on 
hysteria.  I swear up and down it helped.  But sometimes I think it has to be 
at the height of one of these situations for you to REALIZE it helped- like an 
extreme situation.
 
gosh, sorry I'm such a downer lately!  Just a rough few months you know?  
 
caroline  


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: fixing a leukemia kittyDate: 
Thu, 7 Feb 2008 16:38:59 -0600Caroline, 

What did your holistic vet say about remedies to give a cat under going stress? 
 I know Dr. Maier has a number she uses but I am out of touch with them.   They 
could help reduce the stress and reverse any drugs given.  I will never 
vaccinate Dixie given her status.  She is perfectly healthy and an indoor cat.  
I'll take my chances with any diseases she might possibly pick up.

On Feb 7, 2008, at 12:37 PM, Caroline Kaufmann wrote:

If he's healthy now, then do it.  Feleuk cats are prone to cancers- a lot of 
times, that is what gets them in the end, particularly lymphoscarcoma.  
Lymphosarcoma is the most common form of cancer in cats and dogs- feleuk or 
otherwise.  But the incidence in Felv+ cats is even higher.  This is what my 
cat Monkee came down with (found a lump on his leg).  If neutering would 
further reduce his risk of cancer, then it's worth the small risk of putting 
him under but if he is indeed Feleuk positive, then he has double the chances 
of getting some time of cancer.  And it's true that a neuter is a much simpler 
operation than a spay and there's basically no recovery issues- assuming there 
are no complications (unlike the frequent popped stitches that come with 
spaying).  The group I volunteer for is currently working it's way through 
fixing an entire colony of Felv+ feral cats and there haven't been any 
problems.  And they are feral-- which I should think the stress of the 
catching, surgery, immediate release, must be even worse for them, so if they 
can handle it, your boy who's asymptomatic, healthy now that he's with you, and 
getting love and affection, will be fine.caroline 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: fixing a leukemia kittyDate: 
Wed, 6 Feb 2008 21:33:58 -0600
Lynne, my friend has all her feline leukemia kitties altered. I think one, in 
20 years, had a problem.
At least for a female, our vet believes the stress of the regular heat cycle 
would be greater than that of the spay. And you are right that an unneutered 
male is at risk of certain cancers...and he's already potentially immune 
compromised.
 
We had Isabella scheduled for her spay 2 or 3 times and each time she had a 
temp so we didn't do it. When she got so bad that we needed an ultrasound, the 
vet discovered she had hemaclips or something like that which meant she was 
already spayed. Boy were we relieved that we had not put her under and had cut 
open unnecessarily! (The vet had shaved her when we first rescued her and could 
not find a spay scar).
 
I would not be as worried about a neuter as a spay

RE: fixing a leukemia kitty

2008-02-07 Thread Caroline Kaufmann


pre-op blood work is really important, so if it hasn't been done yet, I 
recommend it.  since I have more experience with geriatric cats, our vet always 
did it before even considering a tooth cleaning b/c of the risk of putting an 
old cat under.  it tells the vet a lot.  we had one the we decided against the 
tooth cleaning b/c of the blood work.  another- Rambo- the one that lived the 
longest (19), the vet said his blood work was fine and we absolutely needed to 
do a cleaning and by then Rambo was old old and I was freaking out!  I told my 
mom if he died during the tooth cleaning I was going to kill the vet b/c he 
promised, based on blood work, that is was okay.  I was a mess that day but 
Rambo came through totally fine.  Since then I'm a firm believer in the pre-op 
blood work.
caroline 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: fixing a leukemia kittyDate: 
Thu, 7 Feb 2008 16:51:20 -0500



I called the vet today and asked that they tell me the absolute best time to 
bring him in so he wouldn't have to wait at all so he's scheduled first at 
8:15.  I asked if I could take him home as soon as he came around and the 
assistant said Dr. Gill would decide that tomorrow and probably with Boo's 
condition he wouldn't want him around any longer than possible.  I said hey, 
wait a minute here, you don't discriminate against cats with this disease do 
you, like he's gonna die anyway so if it's now what's the difference She said, 
oh no, we think it's wonderful that you have taken this challenge on.  I'm 
supposed to be at work tomorrow for 9 but I fully intend to stay until I know 
he's out of the woods.  The pharmacy across the hall can tell anyone waiting 
outside the office I'll be late if need be.  If I had my way I'd be there in 
the operating room.  I don't want to make a nuissance of myself but I want to 
know what's going on too.  I also want a CBC done at the time just to get an 
idea of what his blood is like.  My husband and I love this little guy so much. 
 When I go to bed, earlier than Bob, to watch some news, BooBoo follows me 
upstairs and hops on the bed with his little paws hanging over the side and he 
watches with me.  We both like Hillary Clinton by the way.  When she's on I 
swear he is totally intrigued.  He just stares at the TV.
 
Lynne

- Original Message - 
From: Caroline Kaufmann 
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org 
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 1:37 PM
Subject: RE: fixing a leukemia kitty
If he's healthy now, then do it.  Feleuk cats are prone to cancers- a lot of 
times, that is what gets them in the end, particularly lymphoscarcoma.  
Lymphosarcoma is the most common form of cancer in cats and dogs- feleuk or 
otherwise.  But the incidence in Felv+ cats is even higher.  This is what my 
cat Monkee came down with (found a lump on his leg).  If neutering would 
further reduce his risk of cancer, then it's worth the small risk of putting 
him under but if he is indeed Feleuk positive, then he has double the chances 
of getting some time of cancer.  And it's true that a neuter is a much simpler 
operation than a spay and there's basically no recovery issues- assuming there 
are no complications (unlike the frequent popped stitches that come with 
spaying).  The group I volunteer for is currently working it's way through 
fixing an entire colony of Felv+ feral cats and there haven't been any 
problems.  And they are feral-- which I should think the stress of the 
catching, surgery, immediate release, must be even worse for them, so if they 
can handle it, your boy who's asymptomatic, healthy now that he's with you, and 
getting love and affection, will be fine.caroline 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: fixing a leukemia kittyDate: 
Wed, 6 Feb 2008 21:33:58 -0600


Lynne, my friend has all her feline leukemia kitties altered. I think one, in 
20 years, had a problem.
At least for a female, our vet believes the stress of the regular heat cycle 
would be greater than that of the spay. And you are right that an unneutered 
male is at risk of certain cancers...and he's already potentially immune 
compromised. 
 
We had Isabella scheduled for her spay 2 or 3 times and each time she had a 
temp so we didn't do it. When she got so bad that we needed an ultrasound, the 
vet discovered she had hemaclips or something like that which meant she was 
already spayed. Boy were we relieved that we had not put her under and had cut 
open unnecessarily! (The vet had shaved her when we first rescued her and could 
not find a spay scar). 
 
I would not be as worried about a neuter as a spay ~ if Boo is otherwise in 
good health and esp since he's not going to be vaccinated now. We did not 
vaccinate Isabella. I have watched a neuter being done. It takes no time at 
all. He won't be under long. I would ask whether they do a reversal and if the 
vet thinks this is a good idea for him.Bottom line for me ~ if the vet thinks 
it's ok to do the alter, I would be inclined

RE: Sweet Buzz


I agree with everything Lance said.  I foster kittens and also have regular 
house cats and the fosters have a room- my bedroom which is actually 2 rooms 
put together-- that they live in.  As long as they have their clean environment 
(which I have to keep clean because it's my room!) and play and affection, they 
are fine with it.  Eventually, the ones I end up keeping may be integrated into 
being house cats, but I've been doing it this way for months and it's fine.  A 
lot of people on this list- or more so formerly on this list- have FELV+ rooms. 
 Many people even mix them because the transmission rate is very low- much 
lower than you would think- and vets have differing opinions on this (so do 
owners of FELV cats).  I had an FELV cat and he was my only cat for the 4 years 
I had him but I made that choice because he hated other cats (and that is 
probably why he had FELV to begin with- he was a fighter!) and I was so 
obsessed with him that I didn't want to expose him to any run-of-the-mill 
diseases that another cat could have that he maybe wouldn't be able to fight 
off as well b/c of his FELV.  But I have a vet who mixes Felv cats with 
non-Felv and she says there's never been any transmission- that the critical 
time period is when they are very young kittens and if they don't pick up Felv 
then, it's very unlikely they will get it as they get olde because their immune 
system matures and their body develops antibodies and a system for fighting off 
these feline retroviruses.  It's when they are kittens and have an immature 
immune system that they are most susceptible to transmission.  So she will mix 
adult non-Felv cats with Felv+s and has never had a transmission issue.  
 
I'm not telling you what to do- it's a personal decision- but I do think it's 
one that has to be made with as much info at hand as possible and one single 
vet is not going to provide you that.  Sadly, in this day and age, there are 
STILL vets who recommend putting to sleep an ASYMPTOMATIC Felv cat (which 
frankly, I think is malpractice).  So you need to consult a lot of different 
resources to make a fully informed decision.  
 
You also need to have Buzz retested in approximately 6 months.  There can be a 
lot of false positive tests in kittens for FELV.  My Felv cat was already about 
2 years old when I found him and I had him retested 3 times (positive every 
time) b/c I was in such denial!  He was so strong and never had anything wrong 
with him until the end.  But retesting is a must with this disease, but you 
need to wait at least 6 mths.
 
There's lots of good info in the archives about mingling Felv and non-Felv 
cats, retesting, and if you should decide to keep him- all the things you can 
do to boost his immune system and hopefully keep him asymptomatic for as long 
as possible-- diet is HUGE-- very important.  So definitely take a look at 
those and look for subject lines that will indicate what the discussion was 
about.  
 
Good luck.
Caroline   
 
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Re: Sweet 
  Buzz Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 09:56:10 -0600  Hi Sue,  I think it's great 
  that you've given Buzz a new lease on life. It amazes and disgusts me that 
  anyone would abuse an animal. Thanks to you and your  brother's family for 
  taking care of him.  I will say that, as someone who has to isolate a 
  wonderful, sweet FeLV+ girl, I don't think it's cruel to keep an animal in 
  one room, as long as their needs are met, they are given love and 
  affection, and they get some time to play, even if it's in the one room.  
   If you love Buzz, I think you should consider keeping him. If he does not 
  have direct contact with your other cats, and as long as you keep his 
  dishes and litterbox away from them when you're taking them out to be 
  cleaned, the risk of them catching the virus AND actually becoming 
  persistently infected would seem to be incredibly low, if not zero. The 
  virus is fragile, and can't live outside of a cat for more than a few 
  minutes.  I'm definitely not trying to make you feel guilty or bad. It's 
  just that you obviously love the little guy, and you might be the person 
  he needs for the rest of his life. My Ember is almost six years old, and 
  other than what seems like a yearly, intestinal bacterial overgrowth 
  that's been easily treated thusfar, she's really doing well. Whatever you 
  decide, thanks again for looking out for Buzz.   LanceOn Wed, 06 
  Feb 2008 08:35:19 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:  Hello to All...   I 
  recently took a cat my brother had rescued from some neighborhood kids  
  who were abusing and kicking him. He had fleas, worms and ear mites and  
  was near death. My brother and his wife nursed him back to physical  
  health, but he was terrified of people. They had been calling him Buzz  
  Saw because of the way he behaved when anyone tried to touch him. When  I 
  visited my brother, my sister in law threw a

RE: new cat


Hi Lynne.  Thanks for taking in this baby and doing all that you have for him.  
I think that's great.  Definitely keep him if he is asymptomatic right now.  
Any vet that recommends a cat that has tested positive for Felv ONE TIME and is 
asymptomatic is a quack (in my opinion).  The veterinary profession has come a 
long way in extending the lives of these cats and any vet that does not 
recognize that is not up on his/her research.  There can be false positives 
with these tests, so it is recommended he be retested again in 6 months.  
Please see my other recent post regarding Buzz b/c it has a lot of the same 
information about retesting.
 
In addition, if you are going to keep him, you should look for a vet that is 
committed to proactively treating asymptomatic Felv cats.  Do your research.  
Vet hop if you have to, but it is worth it to screen and to find the right 
vet who regularly treats Felv+ cats, is up on the research and will work with 
you to extend the cat's life.  There are many immune boosting things you can do 
yourself now to help your cat.  Also, a high quality diet is key.  There is an 
online group that is devoted to the discussion of a high quality diet for cats 
(especially cats with immune disorders) and I recommend you join it.  I am 
somewhat up on the research of the importance of diet, but not near as much as 
these people.  I will get the website address and post it here in a few.  
 
Keep in mind that no one can tell you how long your cat will live.  There are 
so many variables and because of that, it is ALWAYS worth trying- especially 
when they are asymptomatic.  Please read thru the archives b/c many people have 
asked this very same question and the answers are always the same-- we don't 
know, but it's worth a try.  Especially if you start proactively working to 
make him comfortable, reduce his stress (very key) and boost his immune system, 
there really is no limit to where he can go.  One of my vets had an Felv cat 
live to be 12 and then she died of something completely unrelated- she never 
even became symptomatic and never even suffered from the Felv.  So there are 
success stories out there like that.  And remember, all cats will die.  It 
sucks.  They will almost always leave us before we are ready and no cat will 
ever live to be 30 yo!  So from the minute we take them in and start to love 
them, their time with us is limited and all we can do in the meantime is shower 
them with love and affection and give them the best life possible.  
 
caroline 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: new catDate: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 
18:54:13 -0500



Hi all.
 
I just joined this list after doing all the reading I possibly could find on 
feline leukemia.  I recently acquired a Himalayan male cat around 5 to 6 years 
of age from a rather unscrupulous family.  I was familiar with the cat because 
all summer he would come over to our house and hang around, mostly wanting 
attention and something to eat.  Recently I discovered he was on a buy and sell 
site and immediately called the owners desparate to purchase him.  Knowing who 
I am the price went from 150 to 300 within a couple minutes.  Anyway, my 
husband and I had grown to love this little guy and just wanted him to have a 
good home.
 
Yesterday we took him to the vet where he was groomed, shaved of all the 
horrible matting under his chest and legs, deflead and treated for a terrible 
case of earmites.  We no sooner got home than the vet called to tell us he had 
tested positive for feline leukemia and wanted to know how much we had bonded 
with him and our options.  After what seemed like hours of crying I decided we 
were going to keep him as long as he stayed healthy which he is now.  This 
weekend he is going to be neutered, strongly advised by the vet.  This will be 
strictly a housecat.  He's adjusted very well and is adorable.  I'm just 
curious.  Does he have a chance at a longer life than I've been lead to believe 
he has.  I'm hearing a couple of years and I just cannot accept this as fact.  
 
Lynne
_
Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail®-get your 
fix.
http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx

Brumley is gone



Hello all.  Sadly I have to report that my sweet foster kitten Brumley is gone. 
 I know that so many of you championed his cause and helped me with his very 
intensive care that started the minute I took him home from the condo at the 
store on Dec. 22.  I so wanted him to be a success story and in a way, he was.  
His story was about not giving up, even in the face of impossible odds and 
other vets writing him off as having FIP and then not wanting to continue 
forward with alleviating the pain his affected eye was causing him.  But my mom 
and I kept going and by the time we got to our 5th vet, we found someone who 
was willing to keep working on Brumley and in the meantime, alleviate the pain 
his eye was causing him- which he did and Brumley's quality of life increased 
and I thought he might make it.  He didn't stop eating and drinking until the 
18th of Jan. and that is also when he became ataxic.  But he never stopped 
interacting with his environment and doing the small little things that he 
wanted to do- like continue to walk around, even tho he fell sometimes- that 
never stopped him, hang out with the dog whom- he loved, sniff things, curl up 
on me and purr, bird watch, family wathc, and try to eat soil from the plant, 
etc.  He never stopped purring either until the very end.   I was worried that 
with Brumley I wouldn't know when it was time.  And his vet even said to me 
about 5 different times that he would drag his feet on this one because he 
loved Brumley's grey and white coloring and the way Brum was such a trooper and 
would just not give up at all!  So I worried that if the vet drags his feet, 
and I drag my feet, will we keep a cat going who is suffering?  But that didn't 
happen.  I don't believe Brum suffered much, if at all.  He was perky last 
night and purring away in a cat box he found the other night- after somehow 
making it all the way up the steps to the housecats room and climbing in it!  
He had started to fight me a lot with syringe feeding (which I have done since 
Jan. 19th) and the subqu fluids- also since the 19th.  So I was concerned that 
the fighting- which he had never done before- was either a good or bad sign.  
But he was fine last night- he got his two prednisones and it was my typical 
evening of treating, medicating, feeding, and babying The Brum.  But this 
morning, he was not standing up in his crate and looking around and meowing- 
which had become his usual morning routine.  He was laying flat and my mom 
thought he had already passed.  His little front paws were gripping the crate 
and I had to pry them off- he was obviously in respiratory distress- as this is 
my 3 time since Monkee died in my arms in July to see this, so I know the signs 
b/c I live in fear of them.  He was craning his neck like he was trying to 
breathe and his breathing was rapid.  So I threw on clothes and we rushed him 
out to the emergency clinic- the same one that also took my Possum on the 22 of 
Jan.  Brumley's regular vet wasn't in until 9 today and he had surgeries 
scheduled, so we couldn't go there.  Which I think is good b/c when I saw his 
vet, I would have started balling instead of being composed and I just think it 
would have been a mess for both me and him b/c he really liked this cat.   The 
emergency vet said it was grave.  Clinically, he was dehydrated (despite my 2x 
day fluid treatments), his liver was failing, she suspected kidneys were next, 
she found granulomas throughout his body (other places besides the eye), his 
temp was down again to 94, and she strongly suspected brain damage.  She said 
he was definitely dying and whether it was dry FIP, Toxo (which she doubted), 
or she proposed a very severe fungal infection-- either way, none of it was 
reversible and everything that could be done for the cat had been done.  It was 
definitely time.  Which I already knew when I decided to take him out there.  I 
was with him.  Brumley was so bad off that the ER vet couldn't get a vein, 
couldn't get the juglar and had already decided to euthanize with a shot to the 
heart.  He was even less alert than Possum was when we did this with him, so it 
was definitely the right time- he just crashed so fast and so hard in light of 
how he was last night.  Since the shot went to the heart, Brumley left this 
world very quickly.  The vet gave me a hug and told me I did a good job.   
Honestly, I am exhausted.  I have been doing very intensive care on Brumley and 
it has taken up all of my mornings and my entire evening.  I would get up, take 
care of Brum, go to work, come home, take care of Brum, go to bed, and it would 
start again the next day.  So mentally and physically, I am just worn out.  But 
I know that- especially being a foster cat- Brumley got more care and better 
care than he ever would have if I had not intervened.  In his short, sad little 
life, he never got frustrated, he never got mad and I don't really think he 
knew he was sick, but he

RE: Brumley is gone


Thank you Lynne.  I want to make sure you understand though that Brumley was 
not an FELV cat.  Altho some of the vets that saw him thought he was presenting 
with FELV typical symptoms (the eye), he was tested twice- once at 2 lbs by the 
shelter- and once by me at 6 mths of age, so if he had initially been a false 
negative, it should have shown up at the 6 mths test when he was undeniably 
symptomatic with some kind of infection/possible virus.  If he had been Felv+, 
he would have been viremic at that point and shedding the virus and the test 
would have caught it.  
 
We suspect he had dry FIP- which if you are not familiar with it- sheesh- it's 
a whole other can of worms and practically impossible to diagnose- a very 
complicated and ugly disease.  I thought Felv was the worst thing I'd ever see, 
but I hadn't met FIP yet.  At this point, I'd pray for a kitten to be FELV 
positive in lieu of facing dry FIP again- if we had choices in these matters.  
 
But I just wanted to make sure that Brumley's death didn't make you despair, as 
he was not FELV+.  But I have been on this list almost a year and the people 
here helped me so much with my FELV cat Monkee that they are my first go to 
contacts when I have a foster doing something--anything- FELV or not- as I 
build my cat-care learning curve.  It's these people who led me to the FIP 
support group that has given me tons of support, advice and help with Brumley.  
But I wanted to let the people on this group know what happened because they 
learned of Brumley when I first took him in and came to this group for initial 
advice.
 
caroline 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: Brumley is goneDate: Wed, 6 Feb 
2008 15:05:23 -0500



Caroline, I am so very sorry for your loss.  What a wonderful guardian you have 
been for your Brumley.  This disease is new to me and my new Himalayan and I'm 
learning so much from this group already.  Again my heartfelt condolences.
 
Lynne

- Original Message - 
From: Caroline Kaufmann 
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org 
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 1:05 PM
Subject: Brumley is gone

Hello all.  Sadly I have to report that my sweet foster kitten Brumley is gone. 
 I know that so many of you championed his cause and helped me with his very 
intensive care that started the minute I took him home from the condo at the 
store on Dec. 22.  I so wanted him to be a success story and in a way, he was.  
His story was about not giving up, even in the face of impossible odds and 
other vets writing him off as having FIP and then not wanting to continue 
forward with alleviating the pain his affected eye was causing him.  But my mom 
and I kept going and by the time we got to our 5th vet, we found someone who 
was willing to keep working on Brumley and in the meantime, alleviate the pain 
his eye was causing him- which he did and Brumley's quality of life increased 
and I thought he might make it.  He didn't stop eating and drinking until the 
18th of Jan. and that is also when he became ataxic.  But he never stopped 
interacting with his environment and doing the small little things that he 
wanted to do- like continue to walk around, even tho he fell sometimes- that 
never stopped him, hang out with the dog whom- he loved, sniff things, curl up 
on me and purr, bird watch, family wathc, and try to eat soil from the plant, 
etc.  He never stopped purring either until the very end.   I was worried that 
with Brumley I wouldn't know when it was time.  And his vet even said to me 
about 5 different times that he would drag his feet on this one because he 
loved Brumley's grey and white coloring and the way Brum was such a trooper and 
would just not give up at all!  So I worried that if the vet drags his feet, 
and I drag my feet, will we keep a cat going who is suffering?  But that didn't 
happen.  I don't believe Brum suffered much, if at all.  He was perky last 
night and purring away in a cat box he found the other night- after somehow 
making it all the way up the steps to the housecats room and climbing in it!  
He had started to fight me a lot with syringe feeding (which I have done since 
Jan. 19th) and the subqu fluids- also since the 19th.  So I was concerned that 
the fighting- which he had never done before- was either a good or bad sign.  
But he was fine last night- he got his two prednisones and it was my typical 
evening of treating, medicating, feeding, and babying The Brum.  But this 
morning, he was not standing up in his crate and looking around and meowing- 
which had become his usual morning routine.  He was laying flat and my mom 
thought he had already passed.  His little front paws were gripping the crate 
and I had to pry them off- he was obviously in respiratory distress- as this is 
my 3 time since Monkee died in my arms in July to see this, so I know the signs 
b/c I live in fear of them.  He was craning his neck like he was trying to 
breathe and his breathing was rapid.  So I

RE: new cat


That's great!  Your medical training will come in very handy then because this 
virus is such a virus in the true sense of the term.  That's how my Monkee 
could present as absolutely healthy for 4 years (not even a UTI or upper 
respiratory infection!- nothing) and then suddenly be struck down with symptoms 
when the virus became active.  
 
We've only had one cat (no felv or anything) make it to 19 and we thought we 
were really something special!  But 2, wow!  Yes, I was the same way when I 
took Monkee in at the end of law school-- my mom still had the 3 kittens from a 
litter from a stray that were born when I was ten years old living at home with 
her at the time.  They were of course all geriatric and driving my mom crazy 
because she thought it was time about every other day!  So I was used to cats 
living to be 17, 18 and 19!  The good thing is that after 2 of them finally 
passed relatively close together and we were left with admittedly, my favorite 
of the litter- Rambo- alone for the first time in his life at age 17, I rescued 
an unspayed 1 yo white cat and dumped her on my mom (b/c I had Monkee and 
couldn't take her in).  At first, it was a little weird between them- the 1 yo 
and the old man- but eventually they came to love each other in their own odd 
little way and my mom and I swear up and down that we got two more quality 
years out of Rambo b/c we brought him this kitten!  So there is something to be 
said for a younger cat infusing life into an older one, even if it's 
accomplished begrudgingly!
caroline 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: new catDate: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 
15:14:25 -0500



Thank you Caroline.  You make a very good point.  I do intend to have him 
retested in a few months.  I work in the medical field and am somewhat familiar 
with  false positives and inadequate testing.  I'm not gonna let one simple 
test decide that he has this disease.  However, even if he does have it, it 
matters not one bit.  He's here to stay.  We absolutely love him to pieces, 
even the 19 year old is accepting him which I was worried about because Lennie 
has never had another cat in the house.  We've only ever had 2 feline pets and 
both have reached 19 so the thought of BooBoo not making it to a ripe old age 
came as a bit of a blow to me.  I know it shouldn't but we treat our cats like 
little gods.  I'm going to keep on reading and educating myself about this and 
do the best I can with the situation.
 
Lynne

- Original Message - 
From: Caroline Kaufmann 
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org 
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 12:13 PM
Subject: RE: new cat
Hi Lynne.  Thanks for taking in this baby and doing all that you have for him.  
I think that's great.  Definitely keep him if he is asymptomatic right now.  
Any vet that recommends a cat that has tested positive for Felv ONE TIME and is 
asymptomatic is a quack (in my opinion).  The veterinary profession has come a 
long way in extending the lives of these cats and any vet that does not 
recognize that is not up on his/her research.  There can be false positives 
with these tests, so it is recommended he be retested again in 6 months.  
Please see my other recent post regarding Buzz b/c it has a lot of the same 
information about retesting. In addition, if you are going to keep him, you 
should look for a vet that is committed to proactively treating asymptomatic 
Felv cats.  Do your research.  Vet hop if you have to, but it is worth it to 
screen and to find the right vet who regularly treats Felv+ cats, is up on the 
research and will work with you to extend the cat's life.  There are many 
immune boosting things you can do yourself now to help your cat.  Also, a high 
quality diet is key.  There is an online group that is devoted to the 
discussion of a high quality diet for cats (especially cats with immune 
disorders) and I recommend you join it.  I am somewhat up on the research of 
the importance of diet, but not near as much as these people.  I will get the 
website address and post it here in a few.   Keep in mind that no one can tell 
you how long your cat will live.  There are so many variables and because of 
that, it is ALWAYS worth trying- especially when they are asymptomatic.  Please 
read thru the archives b/c many people have asked this very same question and 
the answers are always the same-- we don't know, but it's worth a try.  
Especially if you start proactively working to make him comfortable, reduce his 
stress (very key) and boost his immune system, there really is no limit to 
where he can go.  One of my vets had an Felv cat live to be 12 and then she 
died of something completely unrelated- she never even became symptomatic and 
never even suffered from the Felv.  So there are success stories out there like 
that.  And remember, all cats will die.  It sucks.  They will almost always 
leave us before we are ready and no cat will ever live to be 30 yo!  So from 
the minute we take them

Diet and Nutrition links


Hey guys.  Below is a message from one of the members of the FIP support group 
I recently joined on behalf of Brumley.  I asked her again for her referral to 
the sites devoted to better diet and nutrition for cats.  I planned to join 
once things calmed down with Brumley because keeping up with the FIP group and 
the assisted feeding support group got to be too much!  
 
But I did want to pass this onto the new FELV members as something to consider 
for the care of your babies.  Diet is unbelievably important and there has been 
nothing short of a revolution as of late regarding what we should be feeding 
our companion animals- and in particular, felines, who are all descendants of 
the big cats in Africa and when we snuggle them and kiss their noses, etc., I 
think we tend to forget that!  I am not saying everyone has to go the raw food 
route- altho Monkee did when his anemia from Felv kicked in and he loved it!  
urgh, too little too late...but I know better now and I just want other people 
to maybe benefit from that).  So add investigating and researching the diet 
issue onto your to-do list.  And keep in mind that you don't have to commit to 
the raw diet-- if you do the research, you will find the particular premium 
canned foods that are as close as you can get to the benefits of raw.
 
I hope this helps!
caroline   
 
Absolutely. The more cats we get off commercial diets the less death we'll see. 
Cats are carnivores. They eat meat ... fresh meat ... not rotted, old, diseased 
garbage, left over meat from rendering plants. And not grains. They can't even 
digest grains and vegetables. 
 
Here ya go.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/WholeCatHealth/
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawcat/
 
God Bless Cats ... the most beautiful and perfect carnivores on the planet. How 
lucky we are that they like us and they're not the size of dinosaurs.
 
Happy Tail and Biscuits on the Back,
Bonnie
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RE: Panting

2008-01-27 Thread Caroline Kaufmann


All I know is that I was told by a vet that cats aren't panters like dogs- 
their bodies don't work the same as dogs.  Dogs do it regularly to cool 
themselves, etc., but it is not a normal function for a cat.  I would ask the 
vet anytime a cat does it.  My deceased FELV+ cat only did it in the heat of 
the summer when I took him out on walks on his leash-- he would lay directly in 
the sun and get too hot.  If I saw him pant even once, I picked him up and put 
him back in the house and the a/c and then he would be fine.  But it's not 
something cats are supposed to do regularly, so when it happens, you need to be 
on alert.
caroline  


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: PantingDate: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 
18:57:15 -0600



My 8 month old kittens also pant briefly after vigorous activity.  Wouldn't 
this be a normal body mechanism to cool itself?
 
One of them also snores quite loudly, and I wonder if that is normal since I've 
never had a cat snore so audibly before.

- Original Message - 
From: Beth Gouldin 
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org 
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: Panting
my 6 month old FELV + manx kitten does the same.  So did our 9 month old 
Siamese mix who we had to PTS because of a serious bout with FELV over 
Christmas. It was normally after careening around the house together but  it 
never really seemed normal.  The manx is a loud breather anyway - sometimes on 
the verge of 'labored' breathing periodically during rest - but more generally 
just a noisy nose.  When she was cked over by our vet other than the FELV+ she 
was really in good condition considering the odds (she has a partial prolapsed 
anus that doesn't seem to bother her - we were trying to take care of it when 
the FELV issue presented itself in the other cat... then we tested her...) We 
go back in 3 weeks for re-test - we are crossing our fingers ...I googled it 
(panting) as well and got the same generalized answer which really didn't help 
- so I'm interested in the answer to Susan's Q. - Beth Gouldin



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RE: Ember

2008-01-25 Thread Caroline Kaufmann


Lance:
 I would just say to keep a close eye on that panting.  When I was in high 
school, we had an overweight, long haired older cat that started panting like a 
dog.  Problem was, it was mid-July and a very hot one at that.  My dad was 
still practicing veterinary medicine part-time at that point and I kept trying 
to get him to pay attention to it, but he kept blowing me off.  Ultimately, the 
cat died on us within a few days.  We found out later that he was having liver 
failure.  Another vet told us that panting in a cat should never be blown off 
like that or blamed on heat, etc.  Basically, sustained panting in a cat CAN be 
a very serious situation, so keep that in mind and be vigilant (which I already 
know you are with her).  
(Side note- yes, that cat's death caused an even bigger rift in our family due 
to what we all thought was my dad's veterinary malpractice on our own cat.  I 
threw a fit.  I know it seems that might be nice to have a vet in the family, 
but keep in mind that it depends on the vet!  Since we weren't paying 
customers sometimes, horribly, we got ignored.  Sigh).
 
caroline  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org 
Subject: Re: Ember Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:43:42 -0600  Hi Jane,  Thanks 
for thinking of us. Tests seemed to indicate that it's an issue of bacterial 
overgrowth in the GI tract. Vet prescribed 10 days of metronidazole for 
Ember. Ironically, Ember had a formed bowel movement only a few hours after 
we got home. I also discovered that Ember likes to eat pumpkin without it 
being stirred in to her food. That might come in handy.  My only concern is 
with something Ember did last night, probably an hour or more after her first 
dose. She made a strange panting sound for about ten seconds. It was a deep, 
breathy noise. I didn't hear it at all the rest of the night, though I was 
asleep for most of it, so I might have missed a reoccurrence. I'm carbon 
copying the list on my reply to you, in case anyone else might have an idea. 
 Lance  On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:34:45 -0500, Jane Lyons said:  Lance how 
is she ?  I'm thinking of you, with fingers crossed.  Jane  --  Lance 
Linimon [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
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CLS- Possum

2008-01-21 Thread Caroline Kaufmann


Can you add my foster kitten Possum (aka Possee) to the CLS?  He was not an 
FELV cat, but possibly FIP.  
 
He was a struggling, failing to thrive white w/ grey kitten (who indeed looked 
like a Possum), who had a rough start in life and I took him in to give him TLC 
and see what I could do for him.  Unfortunately, I was unable to get him the 
vet care he needed/deserved due to approval problems with the adoption group he 
belonged to/I volunteered for and I will forever regret that and feel guilty.  
But I know I gave him a wonderful few months that he wouldn't have had if I 
hadn't taken him in: he was kept warm, freed from the pet store condos, got the 
royalest treatment of all my fosters b/c I never made him stay in the condo-he 
had free reign of my two bedrooms, he slept on the bed with me curled in my 
arms or on my chest or shoulder every night and we had love-fest sessions every 
morning, with him purring away, he got the highest quality food and 
supplements, holistic vet treatments, and a little kitty heating pad that 
became his all time favorite thing.  Sadly though, for whatever reason, whether 
it be FIP, a congenital heart defect, or both, his little body couldn't keep up 
with his mind and desire to live and he crashed without warning (besides a 
swollen belly) on me in the early morning hours of Sunday and I rushed him to 
the emergency vet clinic to end his suffering.  He was a wonderfully sweet 
little boy and although he was more an old-man cat then the 7 mo kitten he was 
supposed to be, I loved him for who and what he was and I will miss him dearly, 
especially because he became my sleeper-bud and I haven't had one since Monkee 
left me in July.  
 
He was my first cat/foster kitten to die since Monkee and that makes it even 
more heartbreaking for me b/c the Monkee loss is still so fresh.  I also wonder 
why they keep crashing on me on Sundays?!  
 
Thank you,
Caroline K.   
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RE: CLS- Possum

2008-01-21 Thread Caroline Kaufmann


Thank you.  I had a talk with Monkee this morning and I told him he better be 
on his best behavior and to be nice to that sweet little soul Possum b/c you 
know, Monkee was a rougher-upper of other cats (hence, likely the source of his 
Felv!) and he never met a cat he liked, so I told him he better pull it 
together and treat that gentle little boy nicely until I get there!  I'm sure 
he will begrudgingly obey me...  
 
Caroline K.  


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: CLS- PossumDate: Mon, 21 Jan 
2008 16:02:34 -0600



Monkee is chasing Possum and comforting him and showing him all the ropes.  It 
really is ok Caroline---he knew love and care.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 If you have men who will 
exclude any of God's creatures 
from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who  
will deal likewise with their fellow man.   
   St. Francis

- Original Message - 
From: Caroline Kaufmann 
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org 
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 2:32 PM
Subject: CLS- Possum
Can you add my foster kitten Possum (aka Possee) to the CLS?  He was not an 
FELV cat, but possibly FIP.   He was a struggling, failing to thrive white w/ 
grey kitten (who indeed looked like a Possum), who had a rough start in life 
and I took him in to give him TLC and see what I could do for him.  
Unfortunately, I was unable to get him the vet care he needed/deserved due to 
approval problems with the adoption group he belonged to/I volunteered for and 
I will forever regret that and feel guilty.  But I know I gave him a wonderful 
few months that he wouldn't have had if I hadn't taken him in: he was kept 
warm, freed from the pet store condos, got the royalest treatment of all my 
fosters b/c I never made him stay in the condo-he had free reign of my two 
bedrooms, he slept on the bed with me curled in my arms or on my chest or 
shoulder every night and we had love-fest sessions every morning, with him 
purring away, he got the highest quality food and supplements, holistic vet 
treatments, and a little kitty heating pad that became his all time favorite 
thing.  Sadly though, for whatever reason, whether it be FIP, a congenital 
heart defect, or both, his little body couldn't keep up with his mind and 
desire to live and he crashed without warning (besides a swollen belly) on me 
in the early morning hours of Sunday and I rushed him to the emergency vet 
clinic to end his suffering.  He was a wonderfully sweet little boy and 
although he was more an old-man cat then the 7 mo kitten he was supposed to be, 
I loved him for who and what he was and I will miss him dearly, especially 
because he became my sleeper-bud and I haven't had one since Monkee left me in 
July.   He was my first cat/foster kitten to die since Monkee and that makes it 
even more heartbreaking for me b/c the Monkee loss is still so fresh.  I also 
wonder why they keep crashing on me on Sundays?!   Thank you,Caroline K.   

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RE: CLS- Possum

2008-01-21 Thread Caroline Kaufmann


Definitely!  Possum was such a sweet soul that I know he would be happy to know 
his name lives on in another baby kitty in need, and that he was the 
inspiration for that.  The name Possum also led to many wonderful nicknames and 
terms of endearment that I had for him, such as Possee (with the double-e in 
honor of my beloved, late Felv cat Monkee), Poss, PossRum, RumRum, Possil (like 
Fossil), and Rossi (I don't know why?  It just came out!).  And that little boy 
knew everyone of his nicknames and came to any and all of them!  I'll miss 
calling him by his nicknames at night when we settled into bed to read our 
book.  But I am glad that his story maybe revived something in you because 
typing it and getting such positive feedback from everyone on this site, 
definitely revived something in me.
thanks,
caroline  Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:04:19 -0800 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Subject: Re: CLS- Possum To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org  Caroline, I love 
possums and I love that name! Please don't feel guilty. Whatever time Possum 
had here, the two of you made it better for each other. And you've given me 
the inspiration I've needed to keep focused on rescue, (burnt out!) so you and 
Possum have had a ripple effect that will help a few more sweet and gentle 
souls.   Oddly enough, I have been after a grey and white male with a hurt 
foot and sore mouth, and just took in a grey and white youngster who flung 
himself into traffic trying to get away from a cord wrapped around his neck. 
I think Possum is a great name and if you don't mind, I might borrow it.
--- Sherry DeHaan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   Caroline,I am sorry to hear 
of your sweet Possee  leaving you.He was lucky to have you.Hugs to you.  
Sherry  Caroline Kaufmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]  wrote:  .hmmessage P { 
margin:0px; padding:0px }   body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt;   
FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma } Can you add my foster  kitten Possum (aka Possee) to 
the CLS? He was not  an FELV cat, but possibly FIP. He was a 
struggling, failing to thrive white w/ grey  kitten (who indeed looked like a 
Possum), who had a  rough start in life and I took him in to give him  TLC 
and see what I could do for him. Unfortunately,  I was unable to get him the 
vet care he  needed/deserved due to approval problems with the  adoption 
group he belonged to/I volunteered for and  I will forever regret that and 
feel guilty. But I  know I gave him a wonderful few months that he  
wouldn't have had if I hadn't taken him in: he was  kept warm, freed from the 
pet store condos, got the  royalest treatment of all my fosters b/c I never 
 made him stay in the condo-he had free reign of my  two bedrooms, he slept 
on the bed with me curled in  my arms or on my chest or shoulder every night 
and  we had love-fest sessions every morning, with him  purring away, he 
got the highest quality food and  supplements, holistic vet treatments, and a 
little  kitty heating pad that became his all time favorite  thing. Sadly 
though, for  whatever reason, whether it be FIP, a congenital  heart 
defect, or both, his little body couldn't keep  up with his mind and desire 
to live and he crashed  without warning (besides a swollen belly) on me in  
the early morning hours of Sunday and I rushed him  to the emergency vet 
clinic to end his suffering.   He was a wonderfully sweet little boy and 
although  he was more an old-man cat then the 7 mo kitten he  was supposed 
to be, I loved him for who and what he  was and I will miss him dearly, 
especially because  he became my sleeper-bud and I haven't had one since  
Monkee left me in July. He was my first cat/foster kitten to die since 
 Monkee and that makes it even more heartbreaking for  me b/c the Monkee 
loss is still so fresh. I also  wonder why they keep crashing on me on 
Sundays?! Thank you,  Caroline K.   
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RE: OT: sick 6 mo kitten follow-up

2008-01-10 Thread Caroline Kaufmann

 that call me and ask 
about him.  But his original foster, and the lady who is I guess in charge 
and the bane of my existence and she's also on the board (sigh)- she doesn't 
even ask about him anymore!  She had a teleph. convo with my holistic vet 
before I first talked to the vet about Brum where she actually told the vet, 
well you know, we're going to lose some of them and now my vet won't deal 
with her due to that comment (and rightfully so), b/c it's like, you pulled 
these kittens out of Metro AC in June and they have struggled ever since and 
Brumley's in the condition he's in, in part because of lack of care and 
attention by this group and so now, we're just going to play the numbers and 
let him linger on until death instead of getting the necessary vet care for a 
cat that we agreed to take on the minute he was pulled from Metro?!?  I could 
scream.
 
I'm so frustrated.  
 
I think I can take a picture of Brumley's eye tonight with my webcam and email 
it, so if anyone is willing to take a look at it, let me know so I can email it 
directly b/c this site won't take it if I try to send to all.  I would really 
just like to hear someone say yeah, I've seen that before! when it comes to 
his eye- instead of these two vets who act like they have never seen it before 
and don't address the eye care directly...
 
caroline  


Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 08:39:55 -0800From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: OT: sick 6 mo 
kitten follow-upTo: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org





Caroline,
 
Bless you for taking care of these babies.  You are truly going above and 
beyond and it sounds like you've found your calling.  I hope you got conclusive 
yet good news for the sick kitten on Friday.
 
:)
Wendy Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can 
change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has! ~~~ Margaret 
Meade ~~~ 

- Original Message From: Caroline Kaufmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Thursday, December 27, 2007 8:39:08 PMSubject: OT: sick 6 mo 
kitten follow-up

Okay, the results are not all in, but I finally talked to the Vet about the 
blood tests from the sick kitten I took in- which he suspect FIP in.  The cat 
was NEGATIVE for Felv (so that's the second time he's tested neg.- first at 
approx. 2 mths old, now at 6 mths).  He NEGATIVE for FIV (which he had not yet 
been tested for ever).  The vet also says that so far, it looks like it's not 
FIP and he talked about how there is no conclusive test, etc., so for now, he 
has to go by the presence of antibodies- which he says are usually higher if 
the cat has dry FIP and then even higher if it's wet FIP.  He says the 
antibodies are just not high enough to for it to be FIP- either the dry or wet 
form.  So he remains concerned tho that it's a an infectious (i.e., contagious) 
disease.  What he is waiting on now is the toxoplasmosis test b/c now he is 
suspecting that.  He said the results of that test will be in tomorrow.  He 
also said the blood is showing high globulin levels and high white blood cells- 
both of which indicate some kind of an infection, but he just doesn't know what 
kind yet.  I do have a phone consultation appointment tomorrow at 5:00 with the 
holistic vet (Marylyn-- Dr. Maier) who treated Monkee at the end of his life 
and whom Monkee loved- at a time when he was utterly miserable and fed up with 
vets!  We are consulting on this kitten and then also to discuss general care 
of fosters and things I can do holistically to help them rehab faster.  I may 
end up taking Yoda to her anyway b/c of the diarrhea that I can't get 
traditional vets to address.  Hopefully, I will have the blood tests results on 
my sick kitten emailed to me before then, so I can forward them to her for her 
review and second opinion.  I feel better because I am finally getting some 
freaking vets lined up so that I can finally take care of these fosters without 
always feeling like I'm supposed to do so without ever having veterinary access 
unless a cat is pretty much dying in my arms.  Monkee died in my arms despite 
all the things we did to save him and there is NO WAY I'm going to allow 
another cat to die in my arms- especially these fosters who seem to have 
totally treatable (possibly preventable) things going on with them!  Urg.  So 
we continue to forge ahead.Poor kitty feels so much better and I'm worried 
about continuing to give him fluids.  Dr. Maier said in an email that if he is 
doing that much better and has had 3 treatments of subcu fluids, it's probably 
not necessary to do them today.  But when I talked to the conventional vet that 
saw the cat on Monday, he said to continue them b/c extra fluids are extra 
fluids, it can't really hurt him (I beg to differ- it's very traumatic b/c 
it's just me and him in a contest of wills and strength and it's pretty 
horrible- he gets that huge needle out everytime and I have to re-stick him-- 
which is hell for me and him), and without really seeing the cat

RE: OT: sick 6 mo kitten follow-up

2008-01-10 Thread Caroline Kaufmann

-- like 
some kind of infection somewhere else in the body, but she doesn't know where.  
So she wanted me to stop his Clavamox and try some other immune boosting 
things.  Again, my mom asked about the eye and should we be putting anything in 
it to treat it, and the Dr. was just like no.   So of course, Brum was better 
just the next day (Tues.) and I could tell the fever broke.  He was batting 
around a toy the very next morning.  Still eating great. But then by Wed. 
night, he was just sleeping the whole time in a cubby hole, seemed to have a 
fever again and not playing (still eating tho).  So I thought, well maybe his 
holistic vet is right, he is working on fighting off some infection and when it 
gets too hard for his body to fight it, he succumbs a little bit and the fever 
comes back, etc.  So, this morning, it's the same.  Lots of sleeping and fever 
still around.  Even worse, his eye looks worse.  I swear, it looks like the 
cavity or something is filled with blood b.c the eye appears to be a diff't 
color than the other and you can see that it looks like blood behind the eye.  
So now, it looks bloodier and as if the blood has settled down to the bottom 
of the eye more- like it pooled there.  And now, there are even more 
cloudy/greyish white spots on the surface of the eyeball.  Ugh.  I'm worried.  
But my mom is worse-- she's a worry-wart prone to histrionics and having these 
two sick/down cats (Brum and Possum) with her around, literally sucks my will 
to live.  She just wants to keep running Brumley to vets b/c she thinks he 
needs something put into the eyeball and then she asks me how long can this go 
on (meaning how long do we give Brumley a chance to fight this off- which I 
now recall is the same GD thing my stupid sister said to me about Monkee after 
the blood transfusion...sigh).  And it's just killing me- the stress.  She 
totally makes it worse, so keeping her at bay is a draining task too.   Plus, 
it's like, this isn't even my cat!  He technically belongs to the no-kill group 
I vol for, yet I am the only one dealing with the stress of his care and 
illness  It's only the other run-of-the-mill vols that call me and ask 
about him.  But his original foster, and the lady who is I guess in charge 
and the bane of my existence and she's also on the board (sigh)- she doesn't 
even ask about him anymore!  She had a teleph. convo with my holistic vet 
before I first talked to the vet about Brum where she actually told the vet, 
well you know, we're going to lose some of them and now my vet won't deal 
with her due to that comment (and rightfully so), b/c it's like, you pulled 
these kittens out of Metro AC in June and they have struggled ever since and 
Brumley's in the condition he's in, in part because of lack of care and 
attention by this group and so now, we're just going to play the numbers and 
let him linger on until death instead of getting the necessary vet care for a 
cat that we agreed to take on the minute he was pulled from Metro?!?  I could 
scream. I'm so frustrated.   I think I can take a picture of Brumley's eye 
tonight with my webcam and email it, so if anyone is willing to take a look at 
it, let me know so I can email it directly b/c this site won't take it if I try 
to send to all.  I would really just like to hear someone say yeah, I've seen 
that before! when it comes to his eye- instead of these two vets who act like 
they have never seen it before and don't address the eye care directly... 
caroline  


Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 08:39:55 -0800From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: OT: sick 6 mo 
kitten follow-upTo: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org




Caroline,
 
Bless you for taking care of these babies.  You are truly going above and 
beyond and it sounds like you've found your calling.  I hope you got conclusive 
yet good news for the sick kitten on Friday.
 
:)
Wendy Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can 
change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has! ~~~ Margaret 
Meade ~~~ 

- Original Message From: Caroline Kaufmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Thursday, December 27, 2007 8:39:08 PMSubject: OT: sick 6 mo 
kitten follow-up

Okay, the results are not all in, but I finally talked to the Vet about the 
blood tests from the sick kitten I took in- which he suspect FIP in.  The cat 
was NEGATIVE for Felv (so that's the second time he's tested neg.- first at 
approx. 2 mths old, now at 6 mths).  He NEGATIVE for FIV (which he had not yet 
been tested for ever).  The vet also says that so far, it looks like it's not 
FIP and he talked about how there is no conclusive test, etc., so for now, he 
has to go by the presence of antibodies- which he says are usually higher if 
the cat has dry FIP and then even higher if it's wet FIP.  He says the 
antibodies are just not high enough to for it to be FIP- either the dry or wet 
form.  So he remains concerned tho that it's a an infectious (i.e., contagious

RE: OT: sick 6 mo kitten follow-up

2008-01-10 Thread Caroline Kaufmann


Okay.  I know that no one can diagnosis- but just to have people 
compare/contrast/confirm, that might be helpful.  His Holistic vet seems to 
think it's scarring- permanent damage from untreated uri's- which I have never 
seen in a cat before.  So if more experienced people that have seen that and 
can say one way or the other, it MIGHT* make me feel better (not about him 
having permanent eye damage :( , but more so that, yeah, it doesn't look like 
FIP)?
ck


Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:35:29 -0600From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]: Re: OT: sick 6 mo kitten follow-upCaroline,I am not a vet but if it 
will make you feel any better I'll look at it.
On Jan 10, 2008 12:30 PM, Caroline Kaufmann  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

The saga continues with my sick cat Brumley.  I don't know what to do any more. 
 The conventional vet that saw him on Dec. 24 got the results back from the 
Toxoplasmosis test and is was neg. (I can't remember if I reported this info 
this site or not).  So when the Toxo test came back neg, the vet totally 
reversed gears from the day before (when he said he didn't think it was FIP b/c 
Brumley only test pos. for high globulin and high protein, but not a corona 
virus, antibody, etc.).  So he completely went back on that and said, 
basically, he thinks it's FIP b/c he has nothing else to go on and b/c Brumley 
is showing 2 of the 3 indicators of it (but still no wet indicators like the 
swollen belly).  I think it's the eye that is really throwing him off and I 
can't for the love of god, get any vet to explain/diagnose/tell me what to with 
that eye.  I have asked if I should be putting anything in it and both the 
conventional vet and my holistic vet just say no.  So, I had a phone consult 
about Brumley with my holistic vet and she reviewed the blood work and said she 
doesn't think it's FIP- that a severely dehydrated cat will have high globulin 
and high protein in the blood panel.  And the fact that is his neg. for corona- 
she just doesn't think it's FIP.  She has of course treated FIP cats/kittens 
and had some herself and she told me she has NEVER seen the dry form of FIP 
in a kitten (Brum's 7 mths)-- only in older, adult cats does the dry form come 
out.  She said she always sees it in kittens in the clear wet form with the 
swollen belly and other signs of fluid retention and then they die quickly.  
And Brum's been lingering on like this for a while now   So, I just went about 
feeding him and making him comfy- moving him into the room with the other other 
guys (he'd already been exposed to them before I had him); stopped the subcu 
fluids b/c I didn't think he needs them.  I guess it's been two weeks since 
then and he just kind of hangs out-- eats- he always eats good- no matter what. 
 But about last week he seemed to lose some personality and he laid around a 
lot and stopped batting around toys.  By this past Sun., my mom and I were 
discussing that he had gone down, down and we were worried.  I don't have a 
thermometer for cats, but I could tell he had a fever and just felt crappy 
(altho he still eats and drinks water when feeling bad!).  I gave him a fluid 
treatment- I thought his pink looked really white and thought it couldn't hurt. 
 The fluid bump hung around forever tho?  I got him in to see the holistic vet 
on Monday evening and my mom took him.  The Dr. kind of laughed off my mom's 
concerns that Brumley was going to die and that his eye looked horrible.  She 
told my mom she thinks he has something else going on besides the eye-- like 
some kind of infection somewhere else in the body, but she doesn't know where.  
So she wanted me to stop his Clavamox and try some other immune boosting 
things.  Again, my mom asked about the eye and should we be putting anything in 
it to treat it, and the Dr. was just like no.   So of course, Brum was better 
just the next day (Tues.) and I could tell the fever broke.  He was batting 
around a toy the very next morning.  Still eating great. But then by Wed. 
night, he was just sleeping the whole time in a cubby hole, seemed to have a 
fever again and not playing (still eating tho).  So I thought, well maybe his 
holistic vet is right, he is working on fighting off some infection and when it 
gets too hard for his body to fight it, he succumbs a little bit and the fever 
comes back, etc.  So, this morning, it's the same.  Lots of sleeping and fever 
still around.   Even worse, his eye looks worse.  I swear, it looks like the 
cavity or something is filled with blood b.c the eye appears to be a diff't 
color than the other and you can see that it looks like blood behind the eye.  
So now, it looks bloodier and as if the blood has settled down to the bottom 
of the eye more- like it pooled there.  And now, there are even more 
cloudy/greyish white spots on the surface of the eyeball.  Ugh.  I'm worried.  
But my mom is worse-- she's a worry-wart prone to histrionics and having these 
two sick/down cats (Brum

RE: OT: sick 6 mo kitten follow-up

2008-01-02 Thread Caroline Kaufmann


During our phone consult, she mentioned about a ton of homeopathic remedies.  I 
have them written down in my cat binder at home.  Some for the eyes to help 
with the URIs and tear stains, etc.  I know she mentioned Thuja a lot.  She 
reccomended a book that Washington Homeopathic Products (Homeopathyworks.com) 
sells regarding homeopathic treatment for cats and that I should consider 
ordering the animal rescue kit for cats to have on hand.  I did order both 
the book and the kit on Friday, so am not buying any homeopathic treatments at 
this time- waiting on my kit.  It should have all the things she mentioned 
during our consult.  
 
After my appt. Sat. with Possum, everyone is now getting the week treatment of 
Wrm Clear.  She says this kills just about everything- that it will get 
tapeworms (interesting...) and also cocidia, maybe even giardia.  It just makes 
the gut so inhospitable, that both parasites and bacteria can't continue to 
live there.  This is mainly for Yoda- to see if it helps clear up his diarrhea 
b/c Dr. Maier thinks something might be hanging around in there.  Also, since 
I've had Possum over a month and he eats wonderfully, and we've now gone 
through 1 1/2 tubes of nutrical, she asked if he's gotten any bigger and I said 
only longer.  Like he's grown longer, but still isn't the size he should be 
for his age (6 mths-- Yoda puts him to shame body-wise).  So she wanted Possum 
to get a treatment of wrm clear to make sure he doesn't have a tapeworm or 
something hanging around (I haven't seen any segments tho- and believe me, I 
look for those things...ewww!).  
 
I'm also treating everyone with whatever the name of the homeopathic rem is for 
over-vaccination.  And colostrum- Dr. Maier gave me some.  I ran out forever 
ago and started using Just Born instead, then ran out of that, and due to 
expenses and just plain forgetfullness, forgot to get more.  Dr. Maier says the 
only kind to use in the New Zealand Bovine so I'll probably just get it from 
her for now on.  By the way, she set me up to get things from her for treatment 
of my fosters so that the group I vol for will pay for it...she rocks!  I got 
the wrm clear, triple antibiotic eye ointment (she says not to use terramycin- 
which I have been shying away from anyway b/c I have noted it seems to cause 
eye irritation in my cats- guess I was right), tobramycin eye drops, the one 
homeopathic rem for vaccinations, a bottle of colostrum, and a spray bottle of 
cat nap-- all so that I didn't have to pay (which is really only fair b/c 
these are fosters and I'm breaking myself paying for premium foods, crates, 
bowls, ferret hammocks, and even litter sometimes).  I did have to pay for 
the Possum office visit- which was fine b/c her rates are so freaking 
reasonable, but b/c I am a foster, she gave me a percent discount.  So I 
finally just feel better all around- no longer like I am out there alone on a 
raft with all these special needs cats that technically don't belong to me b/c 
they are fosters- attempting to care for them without the assistance- when 
necessary- of a discounted vet/vet period!  Ensuring my psychologcial 
well-being in the situation I am in is obviously really important too.  And 
feeling I was expected to do this, sans vet care, was NOT working for me.
 
And admittedly, I was out of town Sun. night through Tues. evening, so I didn't 
have tons of time to observe the Possum, post-Dr. visit, but already there's 
been even more improvement.  He just seems even more perky!  Last night and 
this morning, he's just a wide-eyed, perky little thing.  He may still be 
adoptable yet!  Given another month with me, he may be 85% almost normal!  And 
he's the best little bed sleeper (he's so teeny and gentle- he sleeps curled in 
my arms or up partially on my pillow and we have these little love fests in the 
morning while my snooze alarm goes off)- he'd make such a great buddy for 
someone who wants a gentle (i.e. not a high energy maniac of kitten), lovey 
dovey bed buddy!
 
Caroline  


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: OT: sick 6 mo kitten 
follow-upDate: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 18:56:28 -0600



What did Dr. Maier say about supplements?  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 If you have men who will 
exclude any of God's creatures 
from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who  
will deal likewise with their fellow man.   
   St. Francis

- Original Message - 
From: Caroline Kaufmann 
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org 
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 6:45 PM
Subject: RE: OT: sick 6 mo kitten follow-up
Well, I think I just never saw him drink b/c I had him only from last sat. 
night until monday in my bedroom with my other cats (I have two large rooms 
connected- so they have tons of space.  All

RE: OT: sick 6 mo kitten follow-up

2007-12-31 Thread Caroline Kaufmann


Well, I think I just never saw him drink b/c I had him only from last sat. 
night until monday in my bedroom with my other cats (I have two large rooms 
connected- so they have tons of space.  All but Possum sleep in the condo- 
which is set up by the front window- at night).  But we did keep him in a 
separate crate in the room until the vet visit last monday, and that vet said 
to isolate him, so poor kitty and his crate went to the basement.  I felt 
horrible, but we are just currently running out of rooms.  So, he was stuck 
down there all alone and since he wasn't with me in my room, I wasn't able to 
see what he does.  He spent most of his time down there crying crying crying 
(broke my heart) and knocking over his coop cup of water and food in his 
desperate attempts to reach thru the crate.  It was horrible, I know, but our 
basement doesn't have a real door- it's a folding levelor blind-like door and 
every cat, save for the teeny barn kittens, have made short shrift of it!  
Anyway, per Dr. Maier's advice- after she told me her analysis of the blood 
tests (she doesn't think it's FIP (she said severe dehydration will cause high 
protein and high globulin in the blood- also, he didn't test pos. for any 
corona virus, so I don't see how the conventional vet can say FIP???).  She 
thinks it's just very very very bad malnourishment/dehydration, infection from 
chronic URIs setting in, stress, etc).  So, I moved him into my room on Sat., 
per her okay and recc that it would be better for him.  Since he and Possum are 
both special needs, slow (which incidentally makes them really good kitties b/c 
they don't have the energy to be bad!), both recovering from what is 
hopefully only malnourishment, etc., they both stay out in the room/sleep with 
me on the bed at night (they are both such good little boys)!  So I finally saw 
him drink water and it's all at once, wonderful and hilarious!  He drinks 
voraciously (as voraciously as he eats his wet food- well, he's into the 
crunchies too, but the wet food eating it funnier b/c he smacks him lips and 
gobbles and just makes all these snarfling noises while eating- and gets it all 
over his nose- like he never tasted anything so good!).  So the water drinking 
is similar-- very loud, very intense, and when he looks up, he has it all over 
his chin and nose!  So, I am no longer concerned about water drinking.  I add a 
lot of water to his wet food too and he doesn't seem to mind.  He's not 
dehydrated anymore either.  He still looks like an old man cat to me tho- which 
is sad because he's only 6 months.  Sigh.  He looks like what my 19 yo Rambo 
looked like his last year of life.  He really bounced back after just coming to 
my house, getting fluids and the shot of penicillin, but he seems to have 
leveled off now.  We'll see...I really hope it's not dry FIP.  I just can't go 
through that.  Tackling this malnourishment and weakened state has been hard 
enough...
caroline


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: OT: sick 6 mo kitten 
follow-upDate: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 17:38:57 -0600



Try dripping water or a water fountain.  Ebony loved to drink from the faucet.  
I like the fountain better because the water can be filtered.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 If you have men who will 
exclude any of God's creatures 
from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who  
will deal likewise with their fellow man.   
   St. Francis

- Original Message - 
From: Caroline Kaufmann 
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org 
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 8:54 PM
Subject: RE: OT: sick 6 mo kitten follow-up
I have never seen him drink water, so I am not sure.  But he's been urinating a 
lot- of course that could be from the fluids.  He was dehydrated on Monday, but 
he bounced back so much after the shot of Penicillin and one bought of subcu 
fluids- it was really remarkable.  And of course, the vet isn't able to see 
that.  Since I have never seen him drink water, I have been adding water and 
KMR to his wet food- just to make sure to get some extra in.  He eats almost 
all of his food up, so he's certainly getting moisture that way.caroline 


Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 20:47:47 -0600From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]: Re: OT: sick 6 mo kitten follow-up
That is great news, that everything is negative.
Is he drinking normally?  Is he dehydrated?  If he is not dehydratedI would 
not see any need for fluids (but I'm not a vet, this is not to be construed as 
veterinary advice, yadda yadda)
Kelley
 
On Dec 27, 2007 8:39 PM, Caroline Kaufmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Okay, the results are not all in, but I finally talked to the Vet about the 
blood tests from the sick kitten I took in- which he suspect FIP in.  The cat 
was NEGATIVE for Felv (so that's

OT: sick 6 mo kitten follow-up


Okay, the results are not all in, but I finally talked to the Vet about the 
blood tests from the sick kitten I took in- which he suspect FIP in.  The cat 
was NEGATIVE for Felv (so that's the second time he's tested neg.- first at 
approx. 2 mths old, now at 6 mths).  He NEGATIVE for FIV (which he had not yet 
been tested for ever).  The vet also says that so far, it looks like it's not 
FIP and he talked about how there is no conclusive test, etc., so for now, he 
has to go by the presence of antibodies- which he says are usually higher if 
the cat has dry FIP and then even higher if it's wet FIP.  He says the 
antibodies are just not high enough to for it to be FIP- either the dry or wet 
form.  So he remains concerned tho that it's a an infectious (i.e., contagious) 
disease.  What he is waiting on now is the toxoplasmosis test b/c now he is 
suspecting that.  He said the results of that test will be in tomorrow.  He 
also said the blood is showing high globulin levels and high white blood cells- 
both of which indicate some kind of an infection, but he just doesn't know what 
kind yet.  
I do have a phone consultation appointment tomorrow at 5:00 with the holistic 
vet (Marylyn-- Dr. Maier) who treated Monkee at the end of his life and whom 
Monkee loved- at a time when he was utterly miserable and fed up with vets!  We 
are consulting on this kitten and then also to discuss general care of fosters 
and things I can do holistically to help them rehab faster.  I may end up 
taking Yoda to her anyway b/c of the diarrhea that I can't get traditional vets 
to address.  Hopefully, I will have the blood tests results on my sick kitten 
emailed to me before then, so I can forward them to her for her review and 
second opinion.  I feel better because I am finally getting some freaking 
vets lined up so that I can finally take care of these fosters without always 
feeling like I'm supposed to do so without ever having veterinary access unless 
a cat is pretty much dying in my arms.  Monkee died in my arms despite all the 
things we did to save him and there is NO WAY I'm going to allow another cat to 
die in my arms- especially these fosters who seem to have totally treatable 
(possibly preventable) things going on with them!  Urg.  So we continue to 
forge ahead.
Poor kitty feels so much better and I'm worried about continuing to give him 
fluids.  Dr. Maier said in an email that if he is doing that much better and 
has had 3 treatments of subcu fluids, it's probably not necessary to do them 
today.  But when I talked to the conventional vet that saw the cat on Monday, 
he said to continue them b/c extra fluids are extra fluids, it can't really 
hurt him (I beg to differ- it's very traumatic b/c it's just me and him in a 
contest of wills and strength and it's pretty horrible- he gets that huge 
needle out everytime and I have to re-stick him-- which is hell for me and 
him), and without really seeing the cat, he can't tell me to discontinue 
fluids.  Well, my mom and I have discussed it and I'm doing them tonight.  
It's too much on him and me.  He's feeling too good now so that he really 
fights the fluid giving.  I always recall that Dr. Maier- in all her holistic 
wisdom- said (when I first took Monkee to her), that you don't want the 
treatment to be worse than the disease.  I think that solves my dilemma for 
now.
Caroline
 
 
_
The best games are on Xbox 360.  Click here for a special offer on an Xbox 360 
Console.
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/wheretobuy/

RE: OT: sick 6 mo kitten follow-up


I have never seen him drink water, so I am not sure.  But he's been urinating a 
lot- of course that could be from the fluids.  He was dehydrated on Monday, but 
he bounced back so much after the shot of Penicillin and one bought of subcu 
fluids- it was really remarkable.  And of course, the vet isn't able to see 
that.  Since I have never seen him drink water, I have been adding water and 
KMR to his wet food- just to make sure to get some extra in.  He eats almost 
all of his food up, so he's certainly getting moisture that way.
caroline 


Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 20:47:47 -0600From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]: Re: OT: sick 6 mo kitten follow-up
That is great news, that everything is negative.
Is he drinking normally?  Is he dehydrated?  If he is not dehydratedI would 
not see any need for fluids (but I'm not a vet, this is not to be construed as 
veterinary advice, yadda yadda)
Kelley
 
On Dec 27, 2007 8:39 PM, Caroline Kaufmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Okay, the results are not all in, but I finally talked to the Vet about the 
blood tests from the sick kitten I took in- which he suspect FIP in.  The cat 
was NEGATIVE for Felv (so that's the second time he's tested neg.- first at 
approx. 2 mths old, now at 6 mths).  He NEGATIVE for FIV (which he had not yet 
been tested for ever).  The vet also says that so far, it looks like it's not 
FIP and he talked about how there is no conclusive test, etc., so for now, he 
has to go by the presence of antibodies- which he says are usually higher if 
the cat has dry FIP and then even higher if it's wet FIP.  He says the 
antibodies are just not high enough to for it to be FIP- either the dry or wet 
form.  So he remains concerned tho that it's a an infectious ( i.e., 
contagious) disease.  What he is waiting on now is the toxoplasmosis test b/c 
now he is suspecting that.  He said the results of that test will be in 
tomorrow.  He also said the blood is showing high globulin levels and high 
white blood cells- both of which indicate some kind of an infection, but he 
just doesn't know what kind yet.  I do have a phone consultation appointment 
tomorrow at 5:00 with the holistic vet (Marylyn-- Dr. Maier) who treated Monkee 
at the end of his life and whom Monkee loved- at a time when he was utterly 
miserable and fed up with vets!  We are consulting on this kitten and then also 
to discuss general care of fosters and things I can do holistically to help 
them rehab faster.  I may end up taking Yoda to her anyway b/c of the diarrhea 
that I can't get traditional vets to address.  Hopefully, I will have the blood 
tests results on my sick kitten emailed to me before then, so I can forward 
them to her for her review and second opinion.  I feel better because I am 
finally getting some freaking vets lined up so that I can finally take care of 
these fosters without always feeling like I'm supposed to do so without ever 
having veterinary access unless a cat is pretty much dying in my arms.  Monkee 
died in my arms despite all the things we did to save him and there is NO WAY 
I'm going to allow another cat to die in my arms- especially these fosters who 
seem to have totally treatable (possibly preventable) things going on with 
them!  Urg.  So we continue to forge ahead. Poor kitty feels so much better and 
I'm worried about continuing to give him fluids.  Dr. Maier said in an email 
that if he is doing that much better and has had 3 treatments of subcu fluids, 
it's probably not necessary to do them today.  But when I talked to the 
conventional vet that saw the cat on Monday, he said to continue them b/c 
extra fluids are extra fluids, it can't really hurt him (I beg to differ- 
it's very traumatic b/c it's just me and him in a contest of wills and strength 
and it's pretty horrible- he gets that huge needle out everytime and I have to 
re-stick him-- which is hell for me and him), and without really seeing the 
cat, he can't tell me to discontinue fluids.  Well, my mom and I have 
discussed it and I'm doing them tonight.  It's too much on him and me.  He's 
feeling too good now so that he really fights the fluid giving.  I always 
recall that Dr. Maier- in all her holistic wisdom- said (when I first took 
Monkee to her), that you don't want the treatment to be worse than the 
disease.  I think that solves my dilemma for now. Caroline  

The best games are on Xbox 360. Click here for a special offer on an Xbox 360 
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 help Clarissa!http://rescuties.chipin.com/clarissasheart
_
Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_122007

RE: OT: sick 6 mo kitten follow-up


Okay, that helps a lot.  Yeah, you could tell he felt pretty crappy on Monday 
when he saw the vet.  I knew that, the techs knew that, the vet knew that, the 
cat knew that!  But he really rallied so much the very next day and he no 
longer feels crappy.  It's more behavioral now where he's pissed about being 
segregated in his pitiful crate in the downstairs and he knows there's buddies 
upstairs to play with and he's NOT happy about it.  But physically, he looks so 
much better.  His coat is already smoother and shiny and just feels so much 
better-- it's really kind of freaky.  
 
I will order some of those needles because I am NOT doing it with that horrible 
needle anymore.  I was telling people about it (people who don't do this work) 
and I'm like, you don't understand my pain! b/c this needle is huge!  When I 
had to give Monkee his subcu epogen, it was with this teeny tiny little needle 
and that little beefcake- even being as sick as he was- didn't even feel it.  
But this needle is horrible.  It pains me to stick him with it.  And he manages 
to get his back leg up and pull it out with a foot (and I know he knows exactly 
what he's doing!) and then we have to start over again...so I'm not putting 
us through that tonight.  I think we will both be better off...
caroline  Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 18:56:02 -0800 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 
felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Re: OT: sick 6 mo kitten follow-up  
Caroline, Fred gets fluids everyday and I bet your vet gave you those monster 
 size 18 gauge needles called kitty harpoons on the CRF site. You can  order 
size 20 gauge terumo needles from  
http://thrivingpets.com/products/item-detail.php?formStockId=392N1, I  order 
Fred's here. They are very sharp and a whole lot smaller than the  kitty 
harpoons, most cats tolerate them very well, since they are very  sharp they 
go in very nicely. It does take a bit longer for the fluids  to go through but 
since it doesn't hurt Fred is fine with it. Fred was  a terror when we started 
fluids, he would bite me, he has been getting  them for about a year and a 
half now and is doing really well. The  thing about dehydration is a cat that 
is dehyrdrated feels pretty  crappy, it's equivalent to having a horrible hang 
over.  --   Belinda happiness is being owned by cats ...  Be-Mi-Kitties 
http://bemikitties.com  Post Adoptable FeLV/FIV/FIP Cats/Kittens 
http://adopt.bemikitties.com  FeLV Candlelight Service 
http://bemikitties.com/cls  HostDesign4U.com [affordable hosting  web 
design] http://HostDesign4U.com    BMK Designs [non-profit 
animals websites] http://bmk.bemikitties.com  
_
Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_122007

OT: barn kitten update


Another success!  My last barn kitten- the only one still holding out, 
finally crossed over- as I like to say!  SHE PURRED!  We've hit all the other 
milestones: no longer freaking out and hissing and swatting at me when I reach 
for them: now playing/grooming/acting semi-normal IN FRONT of me; eating while 
I watch them; licking food off my fingers; not freaking out while enduring 
forced face time- which is me putting my face on theirs and touching nose to 
nose- while telling them I'm going to eat you! b/c they are so cute! etc.  
There's three of them and I had one hold out.  The little black boy caved days 
ago and he caved suddenly and all at once and very hard.  Suddenly, he was my 
love-bug-- all rolling around like a woolly worm getting his belly and butt 
scratched and putting his butt up in the air (instead of curling up in a ball!) 
and stretching out and kneading and going limp and talking to me (begging for 
food) and napping on me and falling asleep while I stared at him, etc., etc., 
etc.  And then, finally, the purring!  I knew I had him beat when I heard 
that.  Little suckers!  But I had a hold-out on the grey female.  She was the 
only one still curling like a ball and not going limp and she refused to purr!  
I was so frustrated.  I don't have as much time to devote to the barn kittens 
now b/c of my sick 6 mo kitten and the other demanding little idiots!  The good 
thing is that they grey one has already been adopted by a wonderful man who 
adopted from us a kitten about 2 months ago and he's totally on board with me 
continuing to socialize her and get her ready.  So I talked to him tonight 
about how if he has more time then me right now, it might be best for him to go 
ahead and take her and he does the work on her- subject to my instructions.  
He's so wonderful, he will pretty much do anything I recommend.  So I told him 
she was my one hold out and I can't get a purr out of her.  Darn.  Wouldn't you 
know I go get her after I get off the phone with him and I just really gave it 
to her-- scratching galore, and then it came-- the purr I'd been waiting for.  
Once it started, everything else fell into place.  Now she's all stretched out 
on my lap while I type this email-- STILL PURRING-- all dopey eyed and cozy and 
just in heaven.  She finally stretched out COMPLETELY too and kneaded for the 
first time.  Now she's even looking right at me and then letting her eyes close 
and fall asleep.  She's crossed over!  Now I have to call her new daddy back 
tomorrow and tell him no worries!  Whoo hoo!  Ironically, these unsocialized 
barn kittens have been my easiest foster-cat challenge yet!
caroline   
_
Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.
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FIP; and recent spay question


I wanted to resend this with a new subject line, since I am now able to access 
the Archives and I'm scanning for info on FIP.  None of what I'm finding is 
making me feel better- only worse.
caroline 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ArchivesDate: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 
15:02:21 -0500


I can't access the Archives.  I keep trying and I keep getting an error 
message.  It's not my internet service, obviously, or I wouldn't be able to 
send this email.  Anyone else tried?I'd really like to get to the Archives 
because I took a cat into my home that I took from the store on Sat. because he 
looked horrible and no one else is doing anything about it (of course).  Took 
him to the doctor yesterday (had to fight to get approval to even do that and 
the cat is obviously sickly looking- I'm so frustrated), and the vet is very 
concerned about infectious disease.  Thank god- but I think he was shocked 
that the cat hasn't been treated yet, so I made it very very clear that I just 
got my hands on this cat and have been playing clean-up duty since the end of 
Aug. on these orphaned Metro AC June babies and that the group I VOLUNTEER FOR 
has made my self-appointed task of cleaning up their neglected messes, very 
very difficult.  I didn't mince words.  It was Christmas Eve and I spent 2 
hours and 15 mins at the vets and NOT being able to work and I just cracked I 
guess. The vet is suspecting- based only on the physical exam b/c we won't get 
the blood tests (full panel) back on Wed. (hopefully)-- FIP, FIV, and/or Felv 
in that order.  I am not so worried about Felv b/c I have dealt with that 
before and I just don't think it's transmitted that easily in non-fighting cats 
(my own opinion).  But I have never dealt with FIP and FIV and this cat was 
mingled with my other fosters by the adoption agency I volunteer for before I 
ever even took in any cats.  So basically I am freaking out that I may have FIP 
cats on my hands and not have known it b/c of course I am now wondering if that 
is what has been wrong with my weak little Possum cat all this time.  I'm mad 
and scared and feel like I was asked to take in cats yet not given the 
resources to deal with them fully and protect them from each other; not to 
mention the caring for them with 2 hands tied behind my back b/c to get 
approval to take them to a vet (for the agency to pay for it) takes more 
arguing and hoop jumping-- the cat has to be practically dying to be able to 
get approval without being told things like well, if it would make YOU feel 
better...but I think you are overreacting.  And I spent literally hundreds of 
dollars premium food and litter that I just don't have any money left over to 
rush cats out to vets and pay for it myself.  I'm just sick over this.  I'm 
trying to care for this little guy until we get the results back.  I have to 
give him fluids- which I have never done and he's a fighter.  He got fluids 
yesterday at the clinic, but he was still somewhat sedated from when they took 
his blood, so I am sure my attempt today will not go half as smooth.  He's not 
happy about being in a crate in a room by himself either and it breaks my 
heart.   So I wanted to look through the archives because I know FIP and FIV 
have been discussed before.  Also, of my 3 barn kittens (totally separated from 
the other fosters- so don't worry about that), I have one now who's little spay 
site seems a tad oozy.  Nothing scary scary like blood or a lot of fluid, but 
it just doesn't look totally right.  Not that I know what totally right looks 
like tho because I've never had a kitten this young spayed and I wasn't really 
given any follow-up care instructions- just been using my own common sense.  
But of course, I am worried.  And of course, it's Christmas and that makes it 
very hard to call and ask anyone!   Caroline   

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RE: Archives

will
always test + for FIV. There's a seperate test that purports to determine if
the + result is from but you have to send the blood to a well-renowned
university - I want to say it is UC Davis, but not quite sure. You don't say
how old this cat is, but kittens can test FIV+ from maternal antibodies until
about 6 months.

IF you can send me a picture of the spay site I might be able to help you
there. A little ooziness is normal. I may actually have follow up
instructions on my computer I can send you, I will check.

Feel free to call me if you like.

On Dec 25, 2007 2:02 PM, Caroline Kaufmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I can't access the Archives. I keep trying and I keep getting an error
message. It's not my internet service, obviously, or I wouldn't be able to
send this email. Anyone else tried?I'd really like to get to the Archives
because I took a cat into my home that I took from the store on Sat. because he
looked horrible and no one else is doing anything about it (of course). Took
him to the doctor yesterday (had to fight to get approval to even do that and
the cat is obviously sickly looking- I'm so frustrated), and the vet is very
concerned about infectious disease. Thank god- but I think he was shocked
that the cat hasn't been treated yet, so I made it very very clear that I just
got my hands on this cat and have been playing clean-up duty since the end of
Aug. on these orphaned Metro AC June babies and that the group I VOLUNTEER FOR
has made my self-appointed task of cleaning up their neglected messes, very
very difficult. I didn't mince words. It was Christmas Eve and I spent 2
hours and 15 mins at the vets and NOT being able to work and I just cracked I
guess. The vet is suspecting- based only on the physical exam b/c we won't get
the blood tests (full panel) back on Wed. (hopefully)-- FIP, FIV, and/or Felv
in that order. I am not so worried about Felv b/c I have dealt with that
before and I just don't think it's transmitted that easily in non-fighting cats
(my own opinion). But I have never dealt with FIP and FIV and this cat was
mingled with my other fosters by the adoption agency I volunteer for before I
ever even took in any cats. So basically I am freaking out that I may have FIP
cats on my hands and not have known it b/c of course I am now wondering if that
is what has been wrong with my weak little Possum cat all this time. I'm mad
and scared and feel like I was asked to take in cats yet not given the
resources to deal with them fully and protect them from each other; not to
mention the caring for them with 2 hands tied behind my back b/c to get
approval to take them to a vet (for the agency to pay for it) takes more
arguing and hoop jumping-- the cat has to be practically dying to be able to
get approval without being told things like well, if it would make YOU feel
better...but I think you are overreacting. And I spent literally hundreds of
dollars premium food and litter that I just don't have any money left over to
rush cats out to vets and pay for it myself. I'm just sick over this. I'm
trying to care for this little guy until we get the results back. I have to
give him fluids- which I have never done and he's a fighter. He got fluids
yesterday at the clinic, but he was still somewhat sedated from when they took
his blood, so I am sure my attempt today will not go half as smooth. He's not
happy about being in a crate in a room by himself either and it breaks my
heart. So I wanted to look through the archives because I know FIP and FIV
have been discussed before. Also, of my 3 barn kittens (totally separated from
the other fosters- so don't worry about that), I have one now who's little spay
site seems a tad oozy. Nothing scary scary like blood or a lot of fluid, but
it just doesn't look totally right. Not that I know what totally right looks
like tho because I've never had a kitten this young spayed and I wasn't really
given any follow-up care instructions- just been using my own common sense.
But of course, I am worried. And of course, it's Christmas and that makes it
very hard to call and ask anyone! Caroline

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RE: Archives


I'm a little less worried about FIV, despite what the vet said, b/c I knew this 
about the bite wounds.  And none of my cats fight like that- ever.  Plus, by 
the time I took in the wimpy, frail, undernourished (anorexic) guys, they are 
so slow they don't even play fight.  All were neutered at 2 lbs too so 
these little dudes don't even know they are male and don't have an aggressive 
streak to save their lives!  So I've been trying to funnel this info to my mom 
to keep her from freaking out.  Her cat Tally is fully vaccinated b/c she 
wanted Tally to have her Felv vaccines back when Monkee and I would come over 
to spend the night during holidays (last christmas...sigh- it's been a rough 
one without that little booger).  Tally and Monkee hated each other so they 
never ever had contact and they took turns being out in the house- but my mom 
wanted Tally all protected just in case we ever had an accident where one 
escaped from their room while the other was out (we never did).  Tally has 
never met the sickly fosters b/c she doesn't want to, so we don't torture her- 
she has the house and they have their room.  And my other personal cat, Izzee, 
who now has the run of the house with Tally- they never touch other cats-- they 
don't like them- so they don't associate with the fosters/kittens.  Tally and 
Izzee hang out together, but they don't even touch each other.  It's actually 
really funny, but at least I know there is no fighting/biting going on in this 
house at all.  Monkee was the only one that would have done that and that is 
why he was my only cat while I had him...which is why I always said it was no 
wonder he got Felv-- little fighter that he was!
 
thanks!
caroline   


Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 15:23:27 -0500From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]: Re: Archiveshere's the short answer:FIV is almost always 
transmitted through DEEP, PENETRATING BITES (the kind that boy cats inflict in 
testosterone-fueled rages when fighting over girl cats--which is why almost all 
FIV are boys.) it's NOT air-borne, water-borne, feces-borner. ie, it's not 
really a problem once a cat is neutered; considering this cat is ill and 
probably not mingling much, i expect he's not off taking bites out of people. 
FIP is not contagious, it's a MUTATION of one of the strains of FeCoV--corona 
virus, which, in most species, is the common cold. no way to predict in which 
cat the virus will mutate, tho there is evidence of a genetic predisposition, 
something that doesn't often come into consideration in rescue/situations. the 
information on what FIP is, and the value of what tests exist (and the very 
fact that there IS a highly effective, CHEAP test out there), has generally NOT 
reached the veterinary population--the lack of knowledge is very similar to 
that with FeLV, except that many cats are killed because they've been exposed 
to corona itself, in most cases a completely harmless virus. (human SARS is 
thought, last i heard, to be the people equivalent of FIP--a mutation that was 
deadly.) 




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RE: Archives


I know he wanted to run a full blood panel so maybe that is why?  He wants to 
look at the thyroid- altho he said he doubted it was that; liver, wbc, rbc, 
platelets, etc., you name it.  Like I said, it was my first time seeing this 
vet and so we working on building rapport, at the same time treating this cat 
and the office was also pretty crazy that day- pretty frantic.
Let me tell you tho, I gave the cat his subcu fluids today and it was, uh, 
h*ll.  My 19 yo cat got subcu fluids the last year of his life and altho I 
never administered it on him, I have no doubt it was NOTHING like giving fluids 
to a fully awake, 6 mth old kitten who's been trapped in his crate all day, 
already feeling 10 times better apparently and raring to go!  Let me note the 
tech showed me how to do it yesterday when the cat was still knocked out from 
havin the blood drawn!  So, it sucked, but I managed, but not without first 
getting a lot of the iv fluid all over him and myself!  It's obvious tho that 
he feels so much better already...it's kind of weird.  He wants to take off and 
run around the house like a crazy man and I'm like, you have a fluid bump 
little man...and it's leaking!  We're not running around the house leaking 
fluid!
caroline  


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: ArchivesDate: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 
17:16:43 -0600I certainly agree with that.  Fiv is easy - I have several FIV 
cats, that never get sick.  Well, I have 1 that's just turned diabetic, but 
other than that, no problem.  I mix them with my non-FIV cats, no problem. 

FIP, another question, like she said.  They can test for FIV/FELV in-house, so 
I'm wondering why they didnt do that.  The FIP test is really for the corona 
virus, which, like she said, is pretty common among cats, especially shelter 
cats, it's just that in some cats it mutates and causes FIP.

Gloria




On Dec 25, 2007, at 2:22 PM, Kelley Saveika wrote:

Hi Caroline,
 
I can't tell you about the archives, but I can tell you about FIP and FIV.
 
FIP is a rare mutation of a coronavirus that almost all cats that have been 
around other cats, shelter cats, etc have been exposed to.  One of my vets puts 
the exposure rate to coronavirus at 95% at our local pound.  So please DO NOT 
worry about contagion if the cat has FIP.  It is a mutation.  In the past it 
was thought that there wasn't a way to diagnose FIP without necropsy, but there 
are a couple of tests - these do not include the coronavirus titer test, which 
in and of itself means basically nothing.  There is a good webinar about FIP on 
the Petsmart charities site, if you really want to spend your Christmas 
listening to a webinar on FIP.   But in and of itself it IS NOT contagious.  
Coronavirus is contagious and it is likely that every cat in your house has 
been exposed to coronavirus. 
 
FIV is much harder to transmit than FELV.  It is mostly transmitted through 
tomcats fighting and/or cats mating.  If this is a tomcat and he has been 
fighting, he may have it, but unless he were to bite another cat in your 
household I would absolutely not worry.  THe other thing about FIV is that 
there is an FIV vaccine, which once you have your cat vaccinated with he will 
always test + for FIV.  There's a seperate test that purports to determine if 
the + result is from but you have to send the blood to a well-renowned 
university - I want to say it is UC Davis, but not quite sure.  You don't say 
how old this cat is, but kittens can test FIV+ from maternal antibodies until 
about 6 months.  
 
IF you can send me a picture of the spay site I might be able to help you 
there.  A little ooziness is normal.  I may actually have follow up 
instructions on my computer I can send you, I will check.
 
Feel free to call me if you like.
 
 
 
 
On Dec 25, 2007 2:02 PM, Caroline Kaufmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I can't access the Archives.  I keep trying and I keep getting an error 
message.  It's not my internet service, obviously, or I wouldn't be able to 
send this email.  Anyone else tried?I'd really like to get to the Archives 
because I took a cat into my home that I took from the store on Sat. because he 
looked horrible and no one else is doing anything about it (of course).  Took 
him to the doctor yesterday (had to fight to get approval to even do that and 
the cat is obviously sickly looking- I'm so frustrated), and the vet is very 
concerned about infectious disease.  Thank god- but I think he was shocked 
that the cat hasn't been treated yet, so I made it very very clear that I just 
got my hands on this cat and have been playing clean-up duty since the end of 
Aug. on these orphaned Metro AC June babies and that the group I VOLUNTEER FOR 
has made my self-appointed task of cleaning up their neglected messes, very 
very difficult.  I didn't mince words.  It was Christmas Eve and I spent 2 
hours and 15 mins at the vets and NOT being able to work and I just cracked I 
guess.  The vet is suspecting- based only

RE: Archives


I'll let everyone know.  I feel better.  I felt a little panicky earlier today 
and that is why I hit the internet to ask you all- on Christmas!  Sorry!  It's 
also been so hard b/c I've been so depressed missing Monkee this Christmas.  He 
made x-mas fun!  Since I'm 30 and single, no kids, he was my kid and I got him 
tons of presents and we had a banner x-mas last year- he got so much stuff last 
year it was insane!  So I've been sad thinking about that and then with the 
thoughts of my fosters having something really bad and worrying about exposure 
and the problems I'm having with the group I vol for, it was just all too 
overwhelming 
But I do feel better now and I appreciate the help and insight that came so 
quickly.  That's why I continue to think this group is just so wonderful.  
I'm still holding out hope that I get lucky and it's just some kind of 
infection- albeit a bad one- coupled with malnourishment/anorexia (which is a 
whole other bag of worms that I would need to tackle- both to rehab him and to 
call attention to the fact that he was in that state to begin with, but that 
would be definitely more manageable).  I'll keep everyone updated.  
thanks for the help!
caroline 


Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 18:59:06 -0500From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]: Re: Archives
Yes I agree and I would think more likely FELV than FIP. Hopefully it is none 
of these.
 
 Junior handles his bad eyesight very well. He hisses a lot at the other cats 
though.
 
Sally
On Dec 25, 2007 6:48 PM, Kelley Saveika [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Yes, one of my seized fosters had uveitis as well.  It is very hard to treat.  
I don't think it has a connection with FIP though, and cats can do very well 
partially blind or even completely blind in one eye. 



On Dec 25, 2007 5:42 PM, Sally Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Your description of the eyes sounds like uveitis, Junior had this after his 
initial symptoms from the FELV onset. Junior had this after he was dx with 
FELV. It is hard to treat and took a over a month to clear up. He was already 
blind in one eye but left the good eye partially blind as well. You can google 
for pictures but sounds like what you describe and terramycin will not clear it 
up. I have not dealt with FIP except I lost a cat many years ago which the vet 
said was FIP. This was way before testing. He went on symptoms alone. I was 
away at college and the cat went off to die.  I will be crossing my fingers 
that the kitty is negative fro all these infectious diseases. I too would take 
FIV over FELV any day. Bless you for caring. 
 
Today is the anniversery of Tinys death. Bansy also died on this day. He too 
had uveitis and if Kerry is still on the gorup maybe she can give you more 
information as to treatment. Tiny and Bandy went to the rainbows bridge 
togetther. 
 
Sally

On Dec 25, 2007 3:02 PM, Caroline Kaufmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




I can't access the Archives.  I keep trying and I keep getting an error 
message.  It's not my internet service, obviously, or I wouldn't be able to 
send this email.  Anyone else tried?I'd really like to get to the Archives 
because I took a cat into my home that I took from the store on Sat. because he 
looked horrible and no one else is doing anything about it (of course).  Took 
him to the doctor yesterday (had to fight to get approval to even do that and 
the cat is obviously sickly looking- I'm so frustrated), and the vet is very 
concerned about infectious disease.  Thank god- but I think he was shocked 
that the cat hasn't been treated yet, so I made it very very clear that I just 
got my hands on this cat and have been playing clean-up duty since the end of 
Aug. on these orphaned Metro AC June babies and that the group I VOLUNTEER FOR 
has made my self-appointed task of cleaning up their neglected messes, very 
very difficult.  I didn't mince words.  It was Christmas Eve and I spent 2 
hours and 15 mins at the vets and NOT being able to work and I just cracked I 
guess.  The vet is suspecting- based only on the physical exam b/c we won't get 
the blood tests (full panel) back on Wed. (hopefully)-- FIP, FIV, and/or Felv 
in that order.  I am not so worried about Felv b/c I have dealt with that 
before and I just don't think it's transmitted that easily in non-fighting cats 
(my own opinion).  But I have never dealt with FIP and FIV and this cat was 
mingled with my other fosters by the adoption agency I volunteer for before I 
ever even took in any cats.  So basically I am freaking out that I may have FIP 
cats on my hands and not have known it b/c of course I am now wondering if that 
is what has been wrong with my weak little Possum cat all this time.  I'm mad 
and scared and feel like I was asked to take in cats yet not given the 
resources to deal with them fully and protect them from each other; not to 
mention the caring for them with 2 hands tied behind my back b/c to get 
approval to take them to a vet (for the agency to pay

RE: New to the list

2007-12-20 Thread Caroline Kaufmann


Get Nutrical- either from your vet, or a lot of pet stores have it- just ask 
them for it.  It's a high calorie supplement for cats.  You need to be giving 
this to him.  If he likes it enough, he may just lick it off your fingers.  
Most cats do like the taste of it.  But to get the maximum amount into him, mix 
it into wet food really good.  Also, start feeding him kitten wet food- 
Wellness brand kitten is really really good.  Kitten food is richer, so it 
may stimulate his appetite more and he'll be very happy getting it!  Most 
important, kitten food is high calorie, whereas adult cat food is not.  He 
needs all the calories he can get right now.  
 
For a cat that is struggling weight-wise, the recommended amount of Nutrical is 
a tablespoon a day.  If you can get just 1 tablespoon in him by mixing into wet 
food and/or by him licking it directly off your fingers, that alone (even 
without him eating food) with stave off fatty liver disease- which can be 
fatal and is the most dangerous thing you face with a cat not 
eating/undernourished.
 
I have a non-felv undernourished 6 mth old kitten (looks 3-4 mths though) that 
I am nursing back to health- he gets a whole tablespoon of Nutrical added to 
1/2 a small can of Wellness kitten food at night.  He's improved markedly- the 
nutrical helps a lot.   
 
Others can address your other questions.  Best thing to do is scan the archives 
for subject lines and read those threads.  All you questions have been 
addressed in previous posts and you will find these helpful.
 
Caroline 


Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 10:27:23 -0600From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]: Re: New to the list
Hi Emily,
 
Your only option is NOT to put him to sleep.  
 
As far as the thinness goes, you can learn to syringe feed him.  Sometimes they 
pull through episodes of illness and sometimes not.
 
I would have the brothers tested - but if they're going to be infected they 
likely already have been, since they have been together so long.  Some people 
on this list mix + and -, and some don't.  After testing, if they are negative, 
I'd definitely get them vaccinated against FELV, though.  Have they ever been 
vaccinated against it before? 
There are lots of people here who know more about FELV than I do.  I just 
wanted you to know someone's out here listening, someone cares, and you aren't 
alone.
 
This is a great list, welcome.
On Dec 20, 2007 10:17 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi there 

My name is Emily and I have three cats, Moses (Felv +) Jeremiah and Samson 
(status yet unknown).

I just found out that Moses is + and he's quite sick. the doctor put him on 
prednesone and doxycline... 

He's not eating and he's quite thin.

The dr wants to put him to sleep. Is this really my only option? Also - if i 
bring him home to be with his brothers... will he infect them? Should i have 
them tested? 

I'm so sad. 

Any help would be greatly appreciated... 

THank you thank you thank you... 




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OT: diarreah in 6 month old kitten


I have a 6 month old non-felv kitten named Yoda that has had diarrhea pretty 
much off and on ever since I've had him (Labor Day).  Some of you may remember 
me asking you about Yoda's diarrhea back then (at first I thought it was just 
the antibiotic for his URI, but he hasn't been on an antibiotic since the first 
weeks of Sept., so that is out).  The vet ran a fecal back in Oct.- nothing.  
We treated with metro...zole (can't remember the name)-- no difference really.  
And I have treated him with probiotics just for H of it- I used a whole can up 
of the Eagle Pack Holistic Remedy for Diarreah (added to his food)- it seemed 
to make no difference with Yoda, so when it ran out, I stopped using it.  I've 
been adding benebac (sp?) to his wet food at night lately- again, no 
difference.  Don't ask about food and diet changes-- I'm so TIRED of answering 
those friggin questions-- I mean, this isn't my first time up to bat-- I'm not 
an idiot.  I'm tired of the adoption agency people (those that have to 
approve Yoda going to the vet) asking me every friggin week about diet 
changes (um, none!) and the vet's office asking the same.  If anyone asks this 
on Sat. at Cat Adoption Day, I'm going to say: Yeah, I'm trying this new thing 
were I feed Yoda something different for every meal...and tons of table scraps! 
 Why?  Do you think that could be it?!  
 
What else?  Oh, I took him back to the vet this Monday so they had the Yoda 
butt to really test for giardia- which I knew it wasn't b/c Yoda is mingled 
with other fosters and personal cats and they would all have it by now and they 
don't, but just in case...They did another fecal-- nothing.  And I know he's 
healthy-- he looks like a little greyhound he's so healthy- he's all muscle and 
lean and just doing wonderful.  He never feels bad, but he'll go in the litter 
box and I will hear these horrible diarrhea, squirty sounds (sorry!) and then 
he just comes out like nothing happened!  But it smells horrible and sometimes 
he can't help but getting it on him and we're all just really tired of it!  The 
Vet said he looked great- which I already knew- and his hydration was great, 
his temp was fine, etc.  But I'm not crazy!  He's having this diarrhea!  He had 
a whole puddle of it last night in the litter box!  Sometimes it more cow 
pie-like, so that is why I say it comes and goes.  It's obviously not 
sustained diarrhea or else he would have hydration issues, which he doesn't.  
But I really want to solve this problem and I feel like I'm at a loss.  Yoda 
also seems to pass gas a lot- especially when he is nervous- like when we go to 
the cat adoption day-- he kind of smells and it's not his fur b/c I kitty wet 
wipe him before each adoption day- it's him sitting there nervously passing gas 
like he has IBS or something?  
 
I've been feeding Yoda kitten food- the Eagle Pack Holistic Chicken flavor that 
is for adult cats and kittens (whatever the H that means?) in the day.  In 
the evening, he gets half a can of the small can of Wellness kitten with 
Brewer's Yeast and Lysine added.  The vet said that kitten food can be richer 
and to try switching him to adult cat food- maybe all dry b/c he thinks the 
wet, with the extra moisture can contribute to diarrhea.  He recommended Purina 
(no, I'm not kidding-- my mom and I would have laughed, but we're tired of the 
runny poo, so it's not as funny as it should be), so I kind of think this vet's 
a quack at this point (for this an other reasons) and with all the premium 
brands on the market, why in the world would I feed him Purina?  (plus that 
means I'd have to switch over two other cats who eat with Yoda- one who is 
underweight that I am rehabbing and needs the best of the best brands of food). 
 Has anyone heard anything like this?  Has anyone had any problems with the 
newer premium foods with their cats?  I just wonder if Yoda has a 
gastrointestinal problem like IBS, UC or even Crohns or something-- something 
that isn't life threatening, but still a problem that can be managed by diet.  
I just wonder if the newer premium foods- with the emphasis being on the high 
protein content- maybe that is harder to digest for some cats?  I switched him 
on Monday to adult, regular wellness wet at night and he's now only getting 1/4 
of a can.  I haven't changed the dry food yet b/c I haven't decided what to do 
about that?  We're status quo with the runny poo.  I just don't know what to 
do/try and I'm so frustrated!   
 
Someone help!
Caroline 
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OT: socializing barn kittens


My other issue is that is took in 3 female barn kittens last Sat.  We are 
estimating they are about 8 wks (just got spayed on Mon and all weigh almost 3 
lbs).  They were born in a barn in Indiana- mom was dropped off on this man's 
farm and had her kittens in the barn.  I don't know too many details, but after 
they were born, they started coming out of the barn a little so they were 
noticed by the farmer and his daughter.  They were not taken into the house as 
far as I know they stayed in the barn until they were caught and brought to me. 
 So my contact at the adoption agency obviously wanted to get them fix and out 
of the bitter bitter cold and wants to see if they can be socialized enough to 
be adopted out.  If not, they will have to re-released to the barn.  She 
doesn't have the time/resources to take on this project right now and she was 
given my name and number as the newest kitten rehabber on the block I guess.  
But I'm a rehabber of sick kittens- that's my forte!  And these babies are the 
healthiest lil piggies I've seen in a loong time (aw the irony).  (By the 
by, 5 of the 7 kittens that I have nursed through illnesses and fostered since 
Sept. have been adopted!  The remaining ones are Yoda- who shows badly b/c he 
thinks I'm his mommy and he has no intention of going anywhere...and the little 
booger is growing on me daily anyway; and Possum (aka Possee- my little 
struggling underweight darling who's finally growing and moving around now that 
we've gone through a whole thing of Nutrical!  He's not caught up to Yoda yet, 
even tho they are the same age, but there's been improvement.  He isn't 
show-ready yet so I haven't even tried to adopt him yet.).  
 
Anyway, I don't know what I am doing with these barn kittens!  Other than just 
generally forcing myself on them, I am kind of at a loss.  They're not really 
wild like feral cats or anything, they just would prefer it if you didn't touch 
them.  They kind of go into this panic mode when I do pick them up by the 
scruff where they will just curl up their body like a ball and they just kind 
of go to their happy place-- like lapse into a trance and don't engage.  So 
people who don't truly know cats think they are darling little docile things 
you can just hold forever, but it's not so.  I know if you put them on the 
ground, they would be off and under something and you'd never find them again.  
It's like they go into survival mode when you hold them, so people think they 
are fun to hold, but really, these little things are dying on the inside while 
you are doing it!  They never purr when I scratch them or handle them.  They 
will hiss sometimes when they first see me or I reach for them, but it's really 
baby hissing and I totally ignore it.  Of course, they are scared of sounds and 
some toys I originally gave them, but we are making headway now b/c they love 
the cat teasers with feathers, so I can get them to engage, but only for the 
purpose of playing.  
 
Other than forced holding of them, what can I do to work on getting them to 
engage with people- and even like them?  I hold them together as a group all 
wrapped up in a towel- I thought that would lessen the trauma by them all 
having each other. Plus, the farmer's daughter (hee hee!) favored only one of 
them and held only that one kitten- so it's more socialized and easier to hold 
than the other two.  It's actually really sad to see the effect that that 
favoritism had on these babies!  I just want to be doing all that I can b/c if 
they can't be socialized, they will have to be released and I will feel like 
it's partly my fault-- I feel like I can't fail here.   It would be especially 
sad b/c these little things are cute cute!  They have those big round apple 
heads and pudgy faces and huge round eyes and they have medium fur that is 
really fluffy and poufy- very distinctive looking and I know if they didn't 
have people issues right now, they would literally fly off the shelves at 
adoption day!  They look little bear cubs basically...insanely cute!
 
Suggestions very welcome at this point!
thanks,
Caroline  
_
The best games are on Xbox 360.  Click here for a special offer on an Xbox 360 
Console.
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/wheretobuy/

RE: OT: diarreah in 6 month old kitten


No.  I didn't want to give him anything that he didn't need.  But I do have 
access to Albon.  
 
Incidentally, one of the other fosters told me on Sat.- when I was complaining 
about Yoda's on going saga- that some of her cats- or a litter that was 
recently adopted, not sure which, just tested positive for giardia, but they 
haven't treated yet b/c the vet said that the drug for it can cause seizures 
and that scared her to death.  This is another one of those this is just what 
I heard.  But she wanted to know if Yoda tested pos for giardia (which he 
didn't and I'm sure he doesn't have- it's a Yoda-specific problem and if he had 
had giardia, I'd have it by now!), b/c she wanted to know what I decided to do 
b/c the vet really freaked her out about treating the cats for giardia.  Anyone 
know about this?  
Caroline 


Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 15:06:14 -0600From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]: Re: OT: diarreah in 6 month old kittenYou know - has he been 
treated for coccidia?  A lot of times my vet will treat for coccidia even if 
nothing shows up on the fecal, because it is so hard to detect.  Metronidazole 
doesn't cure coccidia...Albon or there is a new drug that does it... 
On Dec 19, 2007 2:32 PM, Caroline Kaufmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I have a 6 month old non-felv kitten named Yoda that has had diarrhea pretty 
much off and on ever since I've had him (Labor Day).  Some of you may remember 
me asking you about Yoda's diarrhea back then (at first I thought it was just 
the antibiotic for his URI, but he hasn't been on an antibiotic since the first 
weeks of Sept., so that is out).  The vet ran a fecal back in Oct.- nothing.  
We treated with metro...zole (can't remember the name)-- no difference really.  
And I have treated him with probiotics just for H of it- I used a whole can up 
of the Eagle Pack Holistic Remedy for Diarreah (added to his food)- it seemed 
to make no difference with Yoda, so when it ran out, I stopped using it.  I've 
been adding benebac (sp?) to his wet food at night lately- again, no 
difference.  Don't ask about food and diet changes-- I'm so TIRED of answering 
those friggin questions-- I mean, this isn't my first time up to bat-- I'm not 
an idiot.  I'm tired of the adoption agency people (those that have to 
approve Yoda going to the vet) asking me every friggin week about diet 
changes (um, none!) and the vet's office asking the same.  If anyone asks this 
on Sat. at Cat Adoption Day, I'm going to say: Yeah, I'm trying this new thing 
were I feed Yoda something different for every meal...and tons of table scraps! 
 Why?  Do you think that could be it?!   What else?  Oh, I took him back to 
the vet this Monday so they had the Yoda butt to really test for giardia- which 
I knew it wasn't b/c Yoda is mingled with other fosters and personal cats and 
they would all have it by now and they don't, but just in case...They did 
another fecal-- nothing.  And I know he's healthy-- he looks like a little 
greyhound he's so healthy- he's all muscle and lean and just doing wonderful.  
He never feels bad, but he'll go in the litter box and I will hear these 
horrible diarrhea, squirty sounds (sorry!) and then he just comes out like 
nothing happened!  But it smells horrible and sometimes he can't help but 
getting it on him and we're all just really tired of it!  The Vet said he 
looked great- which I already knew- and his hydration was great, his temp was 
fine, etc.  But I'm not crazy!  He's having this diarrhea!  He had a whole 
puddle of it last night in the litter box!  Sometimes it more cow pie-like, 
so that is why I say it comes and goes.  It's obviously not sustained diarrhea 
or else he would have hydration issues, which he doesn't.  But I really want to 
solve this problem and I feel like I'm at a loss.  Yoda also seems to pass gas 
a lot- especially when he is nervous- like when we go to the cat adoption day-- 
he kind of smells and it's not his fur b/c I kitty wet wipe him before each 
adoption day- it's him sitting there nervously passing gas like he has IBS or 
something?   I've been feeding Yoda kitten food- the Eagle Pack Holistic 
Chicken flavor that is for adult cats and kittens (whatever the H that 
means?) in the day.  In the evening, he gets half a can of the small can of 
Wellness kitten with Brewer's Yeast and Lysine added.  The vet said that kitten 
food can be richer and to try switching him to adult cat food- maybe all dry 
b/c he thinks the wet, with the extra moisture can contribute to diarrhea.  He 
recommended Purina (no, I'm not kidding-- my mom and I would have laughed, but 
we're tired of the runny poo, so it's not as funny as it should be), so I kind 
of think this vet's a quack at this point (for this an other reasons) and with 
all the premium brands on the market, why in the world would I feed him Purina? 
 (plus that means I'd have to switch over two other cats who eat with Yoda- one 
who is underweight that I am rehabbing and needs

RE: socializing barn kittens


Thanks!  That makes me feel better!  I do leave the TV on their room all day to 
force them to get used to human voices.  As far as food bowls and litter box- 
no problem (except for the inevitable laying in the litter box!).  Nothing is 
going to stop these little pigs from eating...trust me.  Especially when I 
bring them their wet kitten food at night (wh/ I'm sure they've never had)- I 
sit in front of their condo and stare at them-- they HATE it, but it's so funny 
to watch the test of wills going through their heads-- watching me, thinking 
I'm going to grab them, thinking they really want to eat that food, etc.  EVERY 
TIME, those pigs opt for eating their food- licking the bowls clean, while I 
hover over top of them!  They use the box fine.
 
I haven't mixed them with my older cats yet- I plan to, because one of them, 
LeeRoy, really likes all cats and is a great cat ambassador.  But I didn't want 
to stress them out so much so soon after their surgery...so maybe in a few days 
we will try that.  Supervised of course.
 
caroline 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: RE: socializing barn kittensDate: 
Wed, 19 Dec 2007 16:16:55 -0500






Fostered a little guy that somebody had dumped .. he was a real problem to pick 
up—he’d hiss and curl up just as you described.  He’d also run a whole lot 
faster than me and could get under things!   LOL  
 
I just made it a point to pick him up as much as I could.  He was around my 
cats and I think that helped a whole lot cause once he started playing with 
them and watching what they did, he figured it was OK.  I fed him with the big 
guys and just being around, figuring out that the strange noises (TV, vacumn, 
etc.) were OK, making his way to the food dish and the litter box and the 
toys—all those things clicked and within a couple of weeks he was ready to go.  
He got adopted the 2nd day I brought him to the shelter (I made a deal to bring 
him there during the day and pick him up at night).
 
My only suggestion is to do what you’re doing—handle each of them as much as 
possible, let them be kittens and find their food bowls and litter boxes, and I 
bet it will work out…
 

Christiane Biagi
914-632-4672
Cell:  914-720-6888
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
Katrina Animal Reunion Team (KART)
www.findkpets.org
 
Join Us  Help Reunite Katrina-displaced Families with their Animals


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Caroline 
KaufmannSent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 3:59 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: OT: 
socializing barn kittens
 
My other issue is that is took in 3 female barn kittens last Sat.  We are 
estimating they are about 8 wks (just got spayed on Mon and all weigh almost 3 
lbs).  They were born in a barn in Indiana- mom was dropped off on this man's 
farm and had her kittens in the barn.  I don't know too many details, but after 
they were born, they started coming out of the barn a little so they were 
noticed by the farmer and his daughter.  They were not taken into the house as 
far as I know they stayed in the barn until they were caught and brought to me. 
 So my contact at the adoption agency obviously wanted to get them fix and out 
of the bitter bitter cold and wants to see if they can be socialized enough to 
be adopted out.  If not, they will have to re-released to the barn.  She 
doesn't have the time/resources to take on this project right now and she was 
given my name and number as the newest kitten rehabber on the block I guess.  
But I'm a rehabber of sick kittens- that's my forte!  And these babies are the 
healthiest lil piggies I've seen in a loong time (aw the irony).  (By the 
by, 5 of the 7 kittens that I have nursed through illnesses and fostered since 
Sept. have been adopted!  The remaining ones are Yoda- who shows badly b/c he 
thinks I'm his mommy and he has no intention of going anywhere...and the little 
booger is growing on me daily anyway; and Possum (aka Possee- my little 
struggling underweight darling who's finally growing and moving around now that 
we've gone through a whole thing of Nutrical!  He's not caught up to Yoda yet, 
even tho they are the same age, but there's been improvement.  He isn't 
show-ready yet so I haven't even tried to adopt him yet.).   Anyway, I don't 
know what I am doing with these barn kittens!  Other than just generally 
forcing myself on them, I am kind of at a loss.  They're not really wild like 
feral cats or anything, they just would prefer it if you didn't touch them.  
They kind of go into this panic mode when I do pick them up by the scruff where 
they will just curl up their body like a ball and they just kind of go to their 
happy place-- like lapse into a trance and don't engage.  So people who don't 
truly know cats think they are darling little docile things you can just hold 
forever, but it's not so.  I know if you put them on the ground, they would be 
off and under something and you'd never find them again.  It's like they go 
into survival

RE: OT: diarreah in 6 month old kitten


Well, Yoda's favorite thing to do is run across my bed, romp on it and rummage 
in my pillow!  So sometimes there are poopy footprints left on my bed!  It's so 
gross- and I have a multiple junky covers I use as my top sheet to protect my 
actual bedsheets from getting the Yoda-prints...but still, it's gross and I'm 
tired of changing it every day after his little party on my bed!  He really 
trashed it one time and my mom was like, I would rather die than sleep in that 
bed!  And I'm a clean-freak/germaphobe-- that's the irony!
caroline


Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 13:25:06 -0800From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: RE: OT: diarreah 
in 6 month old kittenTo: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
Metronidazole can in very rare instances cause convulsions.  Very rare though.  
Untreated giardia is far more dangerous.
 
And, uh, Caroline, if you ever catch giardia from a foster kitty, we're going 
to have to discuss some grooming issues.  Transmission is a fecal to oral 
route.  So don't take playing mamma cat too literally and you should be 
OK.Caroline Kaufmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


No.  I didn't want to give him anything that he didn't need.  But I do have 
access to Albon.   Incidentally, one of the other fosters told me on Sat.- when 
I was complaining about Yoda's on going saga- that some of her cats- or a 
litter that was recently adopted, not sure which, just tested positive for 
giardia, but they haven't treated yet b/c the vet said that the drug for it can 
cause seizures and that scared her to death.  This is another one of those 
this is just what I heard.  But she wanted to know if Yoda tested pos for 
giardia (which he didn't and I'm sure he doesn't have- it's a Yoda-specific 
problem and if he had had giardia, I'd have it by now!), b/c she wanted to know 
what I decided to do b/c the vet really freaked her out about treating the cats 
for giardia.  Anyone know about this?  Caroline 


Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 15:06:14 -0600From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]: Re: OT: diarreah in 6 month old kittenYou know - has he been 
treated for coccidia?  A lot of times my vet will treat for coccidia even if 
nothing shows up on the fecal, because it is so hard to detect.  Metronidazole 
doesn't cure coccidia...Albon or there is a new drug that does it... 
On Dec 19, 2007 2:32 PM, Caroline Kaufmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I have a 6 month old non-felv kitten named Yoda that has had diarrhea pretty 
much off and on ever since I've had him (Labor Day).  Some of you may remember 
me asking you about Yoda's diarrhea back then (at first I thought it was just 
the antibiotic for his URI, but he hasn't been on an antibiotic since the first 
weeks of Sept., so that is out).  The vet ran a fecal back in Oct.- nothing.  
We treated with metro...zole (can't remember the name)-- no difference really.  
And I have treated him with probiotics just for H of it- I used a whole can up 
of the Eagle Pack Holistic Remedy for Diarreah (added to his food)- it seemed 
to make no difference with Yoda, so when it ran out, I stopped using it.  I've 
been adding benebac (sp?) to his wet food at night lately- again, no 
difference.  Don't ask about food and diet changes-- I'm so TIRED of answering 
those friggin questions-- I mean, this isn't my first time up to bat-- I'm not 
an idiot.  I'm tired of the adoption agency people (those that have to 
approve Yoda going to the vet) asking me every friggin week about diet 
changes (um, none!) and the vet's office asking the same.  If anyone asks this 
on Sat. at Cat Adoption Day, I'm going to say: Yeah, I'm trying this new thing 
were I feed Yoda something different for every meal...and tons of table scraps! 
 Why?  Do you think that could be it?!   What else?  Oh, I took him back to 
the vet this Monday so they had the Yoda butt to really test for giardia- which 
I knew it wasn't b/c Yoda is mingled with other fosters and personal cats and 
they would all have it by now and they don't, but just in case...They did 
another fecal-- nothing.  And I know he's healthy-- he looks like a little 
greyhound he's so healthy- he's all muscle and lean and just doing wonderful.  
He never feels bad, but he'll go in the litter box and I will hear these 
horrible diarrhea, squirty sounds (sorry!) and then he just comes out like 
nothing happened!  But it smells horrible and sometimes he can't help but 
getting it on him and we're all just really tired of it!  The Vet said he 
looked great- which I already knew- and his hydration was great, his temp was 
fine, etc.  But I'm not crazy!  He's having this diarrhea!  He had a whole 
puddle of it last night in the litter box!  Sometimes it more cow pie-like, 
so that is why I say it comes and goes.  It's obviously not sustained diarrhea 
or else he would have hydration issues, which he doesn't.  But I really want to 
solve this problem and I feel like I'm at a loss.  Yoda also seems to pass gas 
a lot- especially when he is nervous- like when we go to the cat adoption

RE: OT: diarreah in 6 month old kitten


Okay, thanks.  We are not desperate yet, but it is definitely affecting my 
ability to adopt him.  He's getting bigger and bigger every day and he's now a 
juvenile and past that adorable teeny kitten stage that all the people seem to 
want.  And I sometimes hold off taking him to cat adoption because want to get 
the diarrhea solved, rather than dump the problem on someone else.  But then 
the agency people are like why didn't you bring Yoda? and well Dr. so and so 
didn't find anything, so we really need to get him in here and adopted out... 
(these people drive me crazy!) and I feel sometimes like I am going crazy.  
Like people think I'm making it up b/c I just want to keep Yoda or something.  
Which I wouldn't make up some random diarrhea excuse if that was the case...I'd 
just keep him and tell everyone to go to H*ll!  I need to at least try another 
vet.  That's what we are going to do next week.  I'll let you know what happens.
Caroline 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: OT: diarrhea in 6 month old kittenDate: Wed, 19 
Dec 2007 17:04:52 -0500To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I've been battling diarrhea for 
months. It began as giardia and we used everything beginning with 
Panacur on down and nothing has worked. We used a remedy, Thullium met which 
worked for several months
but it is back again and we in the same state that you are.

Nina has a cat (Gypsy) who eats a home prepared 'turkey mush' recipe that cured 
her chronic diarrhea which
was the result of IBD. You might check with her.

 I use both a homeopath and an allopathic vet and neither of them have been 
able to get rid of it. Her stools are negative
too, and her diet (Whole Foods/PetGuard) is unchanged. She is Felv, and one of 
the vets indicated that it could be
a result of FeLV, which I do not believe to be true. I'm in the process of 
consulting another vet. If I learn anything
new, I'll let you know. Please keep us posted on Yoda. We are desperate. It is 
really awful.
Jane








On Dec 19, 2007, at 3:32 PM, Caroline Kaufmann wrote:
I have a 6 month old non-felv kitten named Yoda that has had diarrhea pretty 
much off and on ever since I've had him (Labor Day).  Some of you may remember 
me asking you about Yoda's diarrhea back then (at first I thought it was just 
the antibiotic for his URI, but he hasn't been on an antibiotic since the first 
weeks of Sept., so that is out).  The vet ran a fecal back in Oct.- nothing.  
We treated with metro...zole (can't remember the name)-- no difference really.  
And I have treated him with probiotics just for H of it- I used a whole can up 
of the Eagle Pack Holistic Remedy for Diarreah (added to his food)- it seemed 
to make no difference with Yoda, so when it ran out, I stopped using it.  I've 
been adding benebac (sp?) to his wet food at night lately- again, no 
difference.  Don't ask about food and diet changes-- I'm so TIRED of answering 
those friggin questions-- I mean, this isn't my first time up to bat-- I'm not 
an idiot.  I'm tired of the adoption agency people (those that have to 
approve Yoda going to the vet) asking me every friggin week about diet 
changes (um, none!) and the vet's office asking the same.  If anyone asks this 
on Sat. at Cat Adoption Day, I'm going to say: Yeah, I'm trying this new thing 
were I feed Yoda something different for every meal...and tons of table scraps! 
 Why?  Do you think that could be it?!   What else?  Oh, I took him back to 
the vet this Monday so they had the Yoda butt to really test for giardia- which 
I knew it wasn't b/c Yoda is mingled with other fosters and personal cats and 
they would all have it by now and they don't, but just in case...They did 
another fecal-- nothing.  And I know he's healthy-- he looks like a little 
greyhound he's so healthy- he's all muscle and lean and just doing wonderful.  
He never feels bad, but he'll go in the litter box and I will hear these 
horrible diarrhea, squirty sounds (sorry!) and then he just comes out like 
nothing happened!  But it smells horrible and sometimes he can't help but 
getting it on him and we're all just really tired of it!  The Vet said he 
looked great- which I already knew- and his hydration was great, his temp was 
fine, etc.  But I'm not crazy!  He's having this diarrhea!  He had a whole 
puddle of it last night in the litter box!  Sometimes it more cow pie-like, 
so that is why I say it comes and goes.  It's obviously not sustained diarrhea 
or else he would have hydration issues, which he doesn't.  But I really want to 
solve this problem and I feel like I'm at a loss.  Yoda also seems to pass gas 
a lot- especially when he is nervous- like when we go to the cat adoption day-- 
he kind of smells and it's not his fur b/c I kitty wet wipe him before each 
adoption day- it's him sitting there nervously passing gas like he has IBS or 
something?   I've been feeding Yoda kitten food- the Eagle Pack Holistic 
Chicken flavor that is for adult cats and kittens (whatever the H that 
means

RE: socializing barn kittens


Yes!  That is exactly what I told my mom!  That's the comparison I used.  That 
they make me feel bad about myself b/c of the way they look at me when I come 
in the room...they look UP at me like I'm the giant from Jack  the Beanstock 
and I'm there to eat them...and when they scamper away from me...I know I 
shouldn't let it affect me, but it hurts my feelings.  The way they look at me 
makes me feel like a big, fat bumbling idiot!  And it's in such contrast to my 
upstairs room of overly-socialized, babyfied, spoiled boy cats- Yoda, LeeRoy 
and Possee!  I go in that room and they all knock things over trying to get TO 
me as fast as possible!  If I bend over, LeeRoy jumps on my back and lays on 
it- licks my head, neck, hair- whatever.  He greets anyone that walks in the 
room like a dog- wags his long tail and talks.  Possee licks me to death on 
the face in the morning; Yoda tries to play it cool with me, but when I was 
gone Friday into Sat. for 24 hours, when I came back, wow, it was a 
love-fest...lil nerd missed me and couldn't help but purr and let me hold him.  
So I'm not used to that terrified look and it does make me sad.  I get pouty!  
I know Monkee's at the Rainbow Bridge laughing is black  white a$$ off at me!
caroline  


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: RE: socializing barn kittensDate: 
Wed, 19 Dec 2007 17:09:39 -0500






The little guy I fostered first latched on to my youngest (and smallest and 
most playful cat)  He followed him around continuously and played non stop.  
Then he latched on to my Tucson who just didn’t know what to make of him taking 
over her favorite ‘napping’ spot.  S, I think it does help to be around 
socialized cats who can sort of show them the way.
 
One other thing—we must look like huge monsters to these little guys.  He got 
more scared if he saw me coming to pick him up than if I just sort of snuck up 
behind him and scooped him up!  It just got to be a game where I’d scoop him 
up, nuzzle him a bit, and then put him down… but it seemed to work with him…
 

Christiane Biagi
914-632-4672
Cell:  914-720-6888
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
Katrina Animal Reunion Team (KART)
www.findkpets.org
 
Join Us  Help Reunite Katrina-displaced Families with their Animals


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Caroline 
KaufmannSent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 4:31 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: RE: 
socializing barn kittens
 
Thanks!  That makes me feel better!  I do leave the TV on their room all day to 
force them to get used to human voices.  As far as food bowls and litter box- 
no problem (except for the inevitable laying in the litter box!).  Nothing is 
going to stop these little pigs from eating...trust me.  Especially when I 
bring them their wet kitten food at night (wh/ I'm sure they've never had)- I 
sit in front of their condo and stare at them-- they HATE it, but it's so funny 
to watch the test of wills going through their heads-- watching me, thinking 
I'm going to grab them, thinking they really want to eat that food, etc.  EVERY 
TIME, those pigs opt for eating their food- licking the bowls clean, while I 
hover over top of them!  They use the box fine. I haven't mixed them with my 
older cats yet- I plan to, because one of them, LeeRoy, really likes all cats 
and is a great cat ambassador.  But I didn't want to stress them out so much so 
soon after their surgery...so maybe in a few days we will try that.  Supervised 
of course. caroline 



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: RE: socializing barn kittensDate: 
Wed, 19 Dec 2007 16:16:55 -0500

Fostered a little guy that somebody had dumped .. he was a real problem to pick 
up—he’d hiss and curl up just as you described.  He’d also run a whole lot 
faster than me and could get under things!   LOL  
 
I just made it a point to pick him up as much as I could.  He was around my 
cats and I think that helped a whole lot cause once he started playing with 
them and watching what they did, he figured it was OK.  I fed him with the big 
guys and just being around, figuring out that the strange noises (TV, vacumn, 
etc.) were OK, making his way to the food dish and the litter box and the 
toys—all those things clicked and within a couple of weeks he was ready to go.  
He got adopted the 2nd day I brought him to the shelter (I made a deal to bring 
him there during the day and pick him up at night).
 
My only suggestion is to do what you’re doing—handle each of them as much as 
possible, let them be kittens and find their food bowls and litter boxes, and I 
bet it will work out…
 

Christiane Biagi
914-632-4672
Cell:  914-720-6888
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
Katrina Animal Reunion Team (KART)
www.findkpets.org
 
Join Us  Help Reunite Katrina-displaced Families with their Animals


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Caroline 
KaufmannSent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 3:59 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: OT: 
socializing barn kittens
 
My other issue is that is

RE: socializing barn kittens