Re: [Felvtalk] Supplements/lysine

2008-08-03 Thread Debbie Harrison

I have to say from my own personal experiences that you are correct, MC!
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Re: [Felvtalk] Supplements/lysine

2008-08-03 Thread MaryChristine
and someplace susan little writes about what happens if a cat doesn't get
enough arginine--it dies, if i recall the bottom line, and there was some
question about whether giving lysine interrupted the absorption of arginine
(but as cats die without the former, it was decided that clearly it
didn't.)

thanks, gloria--i'll add this to my list of references, because altho i've
seen the arginine mentioned before, it was only that once, and i've never
seen this explanation before!

see, together, we're a formidable resource!

MC

On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 11:23 PM, Gloria Lane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Lysine counters the Arginine that Herpes needs to replicate -

 ...from veterinarypartner.com...

• Oral Lysine
 Herpes viruses as a group are highly dependent on the presence of an
 amino acid called arginine. Without arginine, Herpes cannot reproduce.
 The amino acid lysine is taken up by the virus in favor of arginine.
 We can take advantage of this situation by saturating the virus with
 lysine and thus suppressing the virus' ability to replicate. Lysine is
 readily available in most health food stores as a tablet or capsule.
 One should be sure that the formula used is free of the preservative
 propylene glycol as cats can have blood reactions against this
 compound. A month or so of supplementation is required in order to
 determine if supplementation has been helpful.

 Gloria




 On Aug 2, 2008, at 6:11 PM, Sally Davis wrote:

  Hi Wendy
 
  Since the feline herpes virus is fairly common in cats then I
  believe the
  addition of L lysine would be of benefit to cats with FELV
  especially if
  they are exhibiting cold-like symptoms. Semantics aside as to
  whether it
  boost the immune system or has some other mode of action, giving a
  cat that
  does not have the herpes virus L lysine will not do it any harm. I
  gave
  Junior lysine due to symptoms that would have indicated he had the
  herpes
  virus as well as FELV. Anything to help him fight off the secondary
  infections. I think you have a point about it's usefulness whether
  you are
  able to articulate as well as MC. I do not feel that this was meant
  to be
  inaccurate information. It certainly is not harmful information IMO.
 
  I also used Transfer Factor in Junior. It was not cheap and I am
  uncertain
  how much it helped. I was no longer able to afford the good stuff
  and I
  think his health slid a bit when I switched to a cheaper brand. If
  you are
  going to use Transfer factor be sure you get the 4Life formula. It has
  changed formulation but is it the plus form.
 
  Mary Christine you are a wonderful source of information and so
  passionate.
  Everyone here has been so kind to me and helped me keep Junior going
  far
  longer than the vet would have given him. They advised euthanizing.
  He lived
  another year and a half. Most of it good, Some not so good. It got
  real bad
  very quick and the decision then was easy. I stay in the group in
  case I can
  help. I know I would certainly do things a bit different now. I hope
  I am
  not put to the test again.
 
  Sally
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Re: [Felvtalk] Supplements/lysine

2008-08-03 Thread Gloria B. Lane
Ain't we great :)

At 02:58 PM 8/3/2008, you wrote:
and someplace susan little writes about what happens if a cat doesn't get
enough arginine--it dies, if i recall the bottom line, and there was some
question about whether giving lysine interrupted the absorption of arginine
(but as cats die without the former, it was decided that clearly it
didn't.)

thanks, gloria--i'll add this to my list of references, because altho i've
seen the arginine mentioned before, it was only that once, and i've never
seen this explanation before!

see, together, we're a formidable resource!

MC

On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 11:23 PM, Gloria Lane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Lysine counters the Arginine that Herpes needs to replicate -
 
  ...from veterinarypartner.com...
 
 • Oral Lysine
  Herpes viruses as a group are highly dependent on the presence of an
  amino acid called arginine. Without arginine, Herpes cannot reproduce.
  The amino acid lysine is taken up by the virus in favor of arginine.
  We can take advantage of this situation by saturating the virus with
  lysine and thus suppressing the virus' ability to replicate. Lysine is
  readily available in most health food stores as a tablet or capsule.
  One should be sure that the formula used is free of the preservative
  propylene glycol as cats can have blood reactions against this
  compound. A month or so of supplementation is required in order to
  determine if supplementation has been helpful.
 
  Gloria
 
 
 
 
  On Aug 2, 2008, at 6:11 PM, Sally Davis wrote:
 
   Hi Wendy
  
   Since the feline herpes virus is fairly common in cats then I
   believe the
   addition of L lysine would be of benefit to cats with FELV
   especially if
   they are exhibiting cold-like symptoms. Semantics aside as to
   whether it
   boost the immune system or has some other mode of action, giving a
   cat that
   does not have the herpes virus L lysine will not do it any harm. I
   gave
   Junior lysine due to symptoms that would have indicated he had the
   herpes
   virus as well as FELV. Anything to help him fight off the secondary
   infections. I think you have a point about it's usefulness whether
   you are
   able to articulate as well as MC. I do not feel that this was meant
   to be
   inaccurate information. It certainly is not harmful information IMO.
  
   I also used Transfer Factor in Junior. It was not cheap and I am
   uncertain
   how much it helped. I was no longer able to afford the good stuff
   and I
   think his health slid a bit when I switched to a cheaper brand. If
   you are
   going to use Transfer factor be sure you get the 4Life formula. It has
   changed formulation but is it the plus form.
  
   Mary Christine you are a wonderful source of information and so
   passionate.
   Everyone here has been so kind to me and helped me keep Junior going
   far
   longer than the vet would have given him. They advised euthanizing.
   He lived
   another year and a half. Most of it good, Some not so good. It got
   real bad
   very quick and the decision then was easy. I stay in the group in
   case I can
   help. I know I would certainly do things a bit different now. I hope
   I am
   not put to the test again.
  
   Sally
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Re: [Felvtalk] Supplements/lysine

2008-08-03 Thread Gloria B. Lane
Ain't we great :)

At 02:58 PM 8/3/2008, you wrote:
and someplace susan little writes about what happens if a cat doesn't get
enough arginine--it dies, if i recall the bottom line, and there was some
question about whether giving lysine interrupted the absorption of arginine
(but as cats die without the former, it was decided that clearly it
didn't.)

thanks, gloria--i'll add this to my list of references, because altho i've
seen the arginine mentioned before, it was only that once, and i've never
seen this explanation before!

see, together, we're a formidable resource!

MC

On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 11:23 PM, Gloria Lane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Lysine counters the Arginine that Herpes needs to replicate -
 
  ...from veterinarypartner.com...
 
 • Oral Lysine
  Herpes viruses as a group are highly dependent on the presence of an
  amino acid called arginine. Without arginine, Herpes cannot reproduce.
  The amino acid lysine is taken up by the virus in favor of arginine.
  We can take advantage of this situation by saturating the virus with
  lysine and thus suppressing the virus' ability to replicate. Lysine is
  readily available in most health food stores as a tablet or capsule.
  One should be sure that the formula used is free of the preservative
  propylene glycol as cats can have blood reactions against this
  compound. A month or so of supplementation is required in order to
  determine if supplementation has been helpful.
 
  Gloria
 
 
 
 
  On Aug 2, 2008, at 6:11 PM, Sally Davis wrote:
 
   Hi Wendy
  
   Since the feline herpes virus is fairly common in cats then I
   believe the
   addition of L lysine would be of benefit to cats with FELV
   especially if
   they are exhibiting cold-like symptoms. Semantics aside as to
   whether it
   boost the immune system or has some other mode of action, giving a
   cat that
   does not have the herpes virus L lysine will not do it any harm. I
   gave
   Junior lysine due to symptoms that would have indicated he had the
   herpes
   virus as well as FELV. Anything to help him fight off the secondary
   infections. I think you have a point about it's usefulness whether
   you are
   able to articulate as well as MC. I do not feel that this was meant
   to be
   inaccurate information. It certainly is not harmful information IMO.
  
   I also used Transfer Factor in Junior. It was not cheap and I am
   uncertain
   how much it helped. I was no longer able to afford the good stuff
   and I
   think his health slid a bit when I switched to a cheaper brand. If
   you are
   going to use Transfer factor be sure you get the 4Life formula. It has
   changed formulation but is it the plus form.
  
   Mary Christine you are a wonderful source of information and so
   passionate.
   Everyone here has been so kind to me and helped me keep Junior going
   far
   longer than the vet would have given him. They advised euthanizing.
   He lived
   another year and a half. Most of it good, Some not so good. It got
   real bad
   very quick and the decision then was easy. I stay in the group in
   case I can
   help. I know I would certainly do things a bit different now. I hope
   I am
   not put to the test again.
  
   Sally
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   http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
  
 
 
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Re: [Felvtalk] Supplements/lysine

2008-08-03 Thread Sally Davis
Yep we are. I did not think to add the explanation of how the L Lysine
works.

Thanks Gloria

Sally



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Re: [Felvtalk] Supplements/lysine

2008-08-02 Thread wendy
And again, I defend my stance.  Lysine deficiencies can result in lowered 
immune function.  Period.  Even if it only helps combat the herpes virus (as 
opposed to FeLV), it is STILL AN IMMUNE SYSTEM BOOSTER!  And keeping the immune 
system boosted is of utmost importance in keeping the FeLV virus from kicking 
in.  That is why we say a great diet and a stress-free environment are the two 
most important things in keeping FeLV+ kitties healthy, because those things 
help the immune system stay strong.  The quote you sent says specificially that 
even though it helps control the herpes virus, they believe lysine has no 
effect on the immune system and no effect on other pathogens AS FAR AS THEY 
KNOW.  Which means they don't know for sure it does not.  
 
Lysine is an essential amino acid that the human body needs (not sure about the 
feline body, but I'm betting yes), yet cannot make it on it's own.  It must 
come from food/external sources.  Lysine helps to form and maintain muscle, 
bone, and other tissues.  Often, the FeLV virus manifests itself in the bone 
marrow, which we all know is when the disease causes fatal problems, such as 
lymphoma and anemia.  While I am no doctor or scientist, given this knowledge, 
it's still common sense to me that an amino acid that aids in maintaining bone 
and tissue would be beneficial to fighting FeLV when you consider the 
implications on the bone marrow.
 
I don't think there are enough/any studies done to say that lysine does not 
directly combat the FeLV virus/virus replication.  If there are, could you 
kindly post those studies MC?  And a moratorium on the sarcasm would also be 
appreciated by me especially.
 
Respectfully,
Wendy

 Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change 
the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has! ~~~ Margaret Meade 
~~~



- Original Message 
From: MaryChristine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
Sent: Saturday, August 2, 2008 5:08:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Supplements


here's the direct quote from susan little, dvm, head of the Winn Feline 
Foundation (www.winnfelinehealth.org), 

Lysine is only helpful for control of herpesvirus infections.
Otherwise, it has no effect on the immune system and no effect
against other pathogens as far as we know. It is herpesvirus-
specific. And if you give arginine at the same time, you cancel out
the effect of the lysine, so it would be totally pointless. ([EMAIL 
PROTECTED], message #92072, forgive me dr susan!)

this was one of the many times she has repeated this; i've got the same thing 
repeated by a major cat rescuer/transporter in another place in my files, and 
if you go back in the archives you'll see that i and other have repeated this 
over and over again: LYSINE ONLY AFFECTS THE HERPES VIRUS. it's a marvelous 
thing, it trick the virus into not replicating, it's probably the only thing 
that i know that MDs and DOs and DDS and DVMs and practitioners of every other 
purrsuasion and specialty agree upon. 

we do no one any good when we repeat information without questioning it and 
finding out the details and veracity.

please.

MC



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Re: [Felvtalk] Supplements/lysine

2008-08-02 Thread wendy
And again, I defend my stance.  Lysine deficiencies can result in lowered 
immune function.  Period.  Even if it only helps combat the herpes virus (as 
opposed to FeLV), it is STILL AN IMMUNE SYSTEM BOOSTER!  And keeping the immune 
system boosted is of utmost importance in keeping the FeLV virus from kicking 
in.  That is why we say a great diet and a stress-free environment are the two 
most important things in keeping FeLV+ kitties healthy, because those things 
help the immune system stay strong.  The quote you sent says specificially that 
even though it helps control the herpes virus, they believe lysine has no 
effect on the immune system and no effect on other pathogens AS FAR AS THEY 
KNOW.  Which means they don't know for sure it does not.  
Lysine is an essential amino acid that the human body needs (not sure about the 
feline body, but I'm betting yes), yet cannot make it on it's own.  It must 
come from food/external sources.  Lysine helps to form and maintain muscle, 
bone, and other tissues.  Often, the FeLV virus manifests itself in the bone 
marrow, which we all know is when the disease causes fatal problems, such as 
lymphoma and anemia.  While I am no doctor or scientist, given this knowledge, 
it's still common sense to me that an amino acid that aids in maintaining bone 
and tissue would be beneficial to fighting FeLV when you consider the 
implications on the bone marrow.
I don't think there are enough/any studies done to say that lysine does not 
directly combat the FeLV virus/virus replication.  If there are, could you 
kindly post those studies MC?  And a moratorium on the sarcasm would also be 
appreciated by me especially.
Respectfully,
Wendy

 Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change 
the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has! ~~~ Margaret Meade 
~~~



- Original Message 
From: MaryChristine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
Sent: Saturday, August 2, 2008 5:08:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Supplements


here's the direct quote from susan little, dvm, head of the Winn Feline 
Foundation (www.winnfelinehealth.org), 

Lysine is only helpful for control of herpesvirus infections.
Otherwise, it has no effect on the immune system and no effect
against other pathogens as far as we know. It is herpesvirus-
specific. And if you give arginine at the same time, you cancel out
the effect of the lysine, so it would be totally pointless. ([EMAIL 
PROTECTED], message #92072, forgive me dr susan!)

this was one of the many times she has repeated this; i've got the same thing 
repeated by a major cat rescuer/transporter in another place in my files, and 
if you go back in the archives you'll see that i and other have repeated this 
over and over again: LYSINE ONLY AFFECTS THE HERPES VIRUS. it's a marvelous 
thing, it trick the virus into not replicating, it's probably the only thing 
that i know that MDs and DOs and DDS and DVMs and practitioners of every other 
purrsuasion and specialty agree upon. 

we do no one any good when we repeat information without questioning it and 
finding out the details and veracity.

please.

MC


On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 4:33 PM, gary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

There are lots of things people use but Lysine is used by many people with FeLV 
and FIV cats as an immune support.  I use this on my cats.
 
Moducare, although, I haven't figured out how to give it to my cats yet.  Your 
supposed to give it on an empty stomach because it binds with cholesterol and I 
really don't want to put my FeLV+ through the stress of pilling them everyday.  
I suppose you could give it with food that didn't have cholesterol, but most of 
those foods are vegetables and my guys aren't interested.  I tried egg whites 
and they didn't go for that either.  If anyone knows how to get Moducare into 
the cats without pilling and without cholesterol, please let me know.
 
Transfer Factor.  I don't have any experience with this one so I won't comment 
on it.
 
Lactoferrin, I know people using this on their FIV+ cats.
 
And I am sure there are many others.
 
Gary
 
- Original Message - 
From: Jennifer 
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org 
Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2008 3:07 PM
Subject: [Felvtalk] Supplements

What supplements can be given to a FeLV+ cat to keep them healthy?

 Jennifer - PROUD VEGETARIAN  LOCAL SPCA VOLUNTEER.  Be their voice. 
        ~ loving mama to ~
          Morrison (born Oct. 10, 2000)
          Isobel aka Fat Girl (born Feb. 7, 2007)
          Ash (born July 11, 2007, diagnosed FeLV+ July 28, 2008)

 


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Re: [Felvtalk] Supplements/lysine

2008-08-02 Thread Sally Davis
Hi Wendy

Since the feline herpes virus is fairly common in cats then I believe the
addition of L lysine would be of benefit to cats with FELV especially if
they are exhibiting cold-like symptoms. Semantics aside as to whether it
boost the immune system or has some other mode of action, giving a cat that
does not have the herpes virus L lysine will not do it any harm. I gave
Junior lysine due to symptoms that would have indicated he had the herpes
virus as well as FELV. Anything to help him fight off the secondary
infections. I think you have a point about it's usefulness whether you are
able to articulate as well as MC. I do not feel that this was meant to be
inaccurate information. It certainly is not harmful information IMO.

I also used Transfer Factor in Junior. It was not cheap and I am uncertain
how much it helped. I was no longer able to afford the good stuff and I
think his health slid a bit when I switched to a cheaper brand. If you are
going to use Transfer factor be sure you get the 4Life formula. It has
changed formulation but is it the plus form.

Mary Christine you are a wonderful source of information and so passionate.
Everyone here has been so kind to me and helped me keep Junior going far
longer than the vet would have given him. They advised euthanizing. He lived
another year and a half. Most of it good, Some not so good. It got  real bad
very quick and the decision then was easy. I stay in the group in case I can
help. I know I would certainly do things a bit different now. I hope I am
not put to the test again.

Sally
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Re: [Felvtalk] Supplements/lysine

2008-08-02 Thread Marylyn
Colostrum is wonderful as far as I am concerned for any stressed  
animal.  The two feral kittens I have been adopted by are getting it  
daily.  They had a hard beginning.  I want them to have everything I  
can think of to help them overcome it.  They are also getting  
probiotics, grain free food etc.  They have not been tested for FeLV  
or FIV yet.  And I have not had them vaccinated for anything.  They  
are inside so, as far as I am concerned, I can give them some extra  
time to gain weight and just be.   I have been told that colostrum can  
be used if Transfer Factor is out of the question.  I have used it on  
cats.  Please remember I believe in a combination of traditional and  
alternative vets.  The first place Dixie Louise went after we took  
execution off the table was to Dr. Betty Boswell.  Betty saw her  
regularly until the day she died.  Dixie was extremely healthy until  
very shortly (like days) before she left this world and her exit was  
fairly easy and quick.


On Aug 2, 2008, at 6:11 PM, Sally Davis wrote:

 Hi Wendy

 Since the feline herpes virus is fairly common in cats then I  
 believe the
 addition of L lysine would be of benefit to cats with FELV  
 especially if
 they are exhibiting cold-like symptoms. Semantics aside as to  
 whether it
 boost the immune system or has some other mode of action, giving a  
 cat that
 does not have the herpes virus L lysine will not do it any harm. I  
 gave
 Junior lysine due to symptoms that would have indicated he had the  
 herpes
 virus as well as FELV. Anything to help him fight off the secondary
 infections. I think you have a point about it's usefulness whether  
 you are
 able to articulate as well as MC. I do not feel that this was meant  
 to be
 inaccurate information. It certainly is not harmful information IMO.

 I also used Transfer Factor in Junior. It was not cheap and I am  
 uncertain
 how much it helped. I was no longer able to afford the good stuff  
 and I
 think his health slid a bit when I switched to a cheaper brand. If  
 you are
 going to use Transfer factor be sure you get the 4Life formula. It has
 changed formulation but is it the plus form.

 Mary Christine you are a wonderful source of information and so  
 passionate.
 Everyone here has been so kind to me and helped me keep Junior going  
 far
 longer than the vet would have given him. They advised euthanizing.  
 He lived
 another year and a half. Most of it good, Some not so good. It got   
 real bad
 very quick and the decision then was easy. I stay in the group in  
 case I can
 help. I know I would certainly do things a bit different now. I hope  
 I am
 not put to the test again.

 Sally
 ___
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Re: [Felvtalk] Supplements/lysine

2008-08-02 Thread MaryChristine
lysine won't hurt; some vets say ALL cats should be on it, but i don't think
it's fair for people who are desperately seeking help for their
immune-compromised babies to think that something will do something that it
cannot. as i said, i think it's pretty darned miraculous enough as it is!

and when we talk to the vets who don't want to believe us in the first
place, saying things that are NOT accurate just gives them more reason to
ignore us or minimize us. like the 70% figure that was anecdotal in
sanctuaries and amongst mutli-FeLV homes for so long--it's NOW right there
in the Merck, and they can't ignore THAT--before it made it to the Merck
tho, it was just we crackpots

if we want them to take us seriously, we have to know MORE than they
do--which, as in the old joke about women needing to work twice as hard,
isn't that difficult. we can NEVER underestimate how little knowledge many,
many vets seem to have about FeLV, FIV and FIP.

i could apologize for getting so passionate about this, but i won't, because
it's just SO important that SOMEONE have accurate, current information--and
it seems that it's up to us to be those someones.

MC



On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 7:11 PM, Sally Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hi Wendy

 Since the feline herpes virus is fairly common in cats then I believe the
 addition of L lysine would be of benefit to cats with FELV especially if
 they are exhibiting cold-like symptoms. Semantics aside as to whether it
 boost the immune system or has some other mode of action, giving a cat that
 does not have the herpes virus L lysine will not do it any harm. I gave
 Junior lysine due to symptoms that would have indicated he had the herpes
 virus as well as FELV. Anything to help him fight off the secondary
 infections. I think you have a point about it's usefulness whether you are
 able to articulate as well as MC. I do not feel that this was meant to be
 inaccurate information. It certainly is not harmful information IMO.

 I also used Transfer Factor in Junior. It was not cheap and I am uncertain
 how much it helped. I was no longer able to afford the good stuff and I
 think his health slid a bit when I switched to a cheaper brand. If you are
 going to use Transfer factor be sure you get the 4Life formula. It has
 changed formulation but is it the plus form.

 Mary Christine you are a wonderful source of information and so passionate.
 Everyone here has been so kind to me and helped me keep Junior going far
 longer than the vet would have given him. They advised euthanizing. He
 lived
 another year and a half. Most of it good, Some not so good. It got  real
 bad
 very quick and the decision then was easy. I stay in the group in case I
 can
 help. I know I would certainly do things a bit different now. I hope I am
 not put to the test again.

 Sally
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Maybe That'll Make The Difference

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Re: [Felvtalk] Supplements/lysine

2008-08-02 Thread Gloria Lane
Lysine counters the Arginine that Herpes needs to replicate -

...from veterinarypartner.com...

• Oral Lysine
Herpes viruses as a group are highly dependent on the presence of an  
amino acid called arginine. Without arginine, Herpes cannot reproduce.  
The amino acid lysine is taken up by the virus in favor of arginine.  
We can take advantage of this situation by saturating the virus with  
lysine and thus suppressing the virus' ability to replicate. Lysine is  
readily available in most health food stores as a tablet or capsule.  
One should be sure that the formula used is free of the preservative  
propylene glycol as cats can have blood reactions against this  
compound. A month or so of supplementation is required in order to  
determine if supplementation has been helpful.

Gloria




On Aug 2, 2008, at 6:11 PM, Sally Davis wrote:

 Hi Wendy

 Since the feline herpes virus is fairly common in cats then I  
 believe the
 addition of L lysine would be of benefit to cats with FELV  
 especially if
 they are exhibiting cold-like symptoms. Semantics aside as to  
 whether it
 boost the immune system or has some other mode of action, giving a  
 cat that
 does not have the herpes virus L lysine will not do it any harm. I  
 gave
 Junior lysine due to symptoms that would have indicated he had the  
 herpes
 virus as well as FELV. Anything to help him fight off the secondary
 infections. I think you have a point about it's usefulness whether  
 you are
 able to articulate as well as MC. I do not feel that this was meant  
 to be
 inaccurate information. It certainly is not harmful information IMO.

 I also used Transfer Factor in Junior. It was not cheap and I am  
 uncertain
 how much it helped. I was no longer able to afford the good stuff  
 and I
 think his health slid a bit when I switched to a cheaper brand. If  
 you are
 going to use Transfer factor be sure you get the 4Life formula. It has
 changed formulation but is it the plus form.

 Mary Christine you are a wonderful source of information and so  
 passionate.
 Everyone here has been so kind to me and helped me keep Junior going  
 far
 longer than the vet would have given him. They advised euthanizing.  
 He lived
 another year and a half. Most of it good, Some not so good. It got   
 real bad
 very quick and the decision then was easy. I stay in the group in  
 case I can
 help. I know I would certainly do things a bit different now. I hope  
 I am
 not put to the test again.

 Sally
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