The Web may rely in RBG displays but most materials found on the web at
some
point is downloaded and printed to hardcover by a goodly number of people.
Most bureaucrates and business people demand hardcopies of everything for
safety reasons and as backup which is why the paperless society
Laurie writes:
You may be right that it is a common practice;
but that does not mean that it cannot come back
to bite Microsoft.
The likelihood that it will come back to bite Microsoft is no greater than
the likelihood that it will come back to bite any other company that has
been doing it,
Andras writes:
Yes, but it's only Microsoft whose products
I'm forced to use almost every day ...
You are actually required to use a lot of products with similar practices
every day, you just aren't aware of it. Have you checked the margins on
Motorola and Intel microprocessors lately? Do
Robert writes:
But these people don't want any color anyway, and
maybe not even greyscale ...
Look around you, and count the percentage of printed material that contains
nothing other than black and white. Color is being used more than ever
before.
Roger writes:
If I understood correctly the CMYK issue, it
has little to do with photographers but is
crucial on the printer's side.
Yes. CMYK is irrelevant if you never intend to print anything on paper; it
is unavoidable if you want hardcopy.
There seems to be an agreement on the gamut
Andras writes:
OK, what I actually meant is how many people
use CMYK colour space when manipulating images
in PhotoShop or so.
The entire publishing world. It is a key feature of Photoshop, and a
heavily used one, and one of the most important features of Photoshop to
professionals (which is
I think Austin is correct. Win98 had color management in the form of ICM.
This had one or two problems which were corrected in ICM2, supplied in
Win98SE and following versions up to the current XP. I used ICM and ICM2 in
Win98 and 98SE with PS and my Epson EX printer.
Bob Frost.
- Original
Hi Paul,
...However, even in 8-bit mode, having a
10-bit DAC is useful because it keeps the color lookup table curves from
introducing posterization through round-off errors.
If it's 8 bit data, you are feeding the DAC only 8 bits, if you are using a
10 bit DAC, then the lower two bits are
... Anthony's claim that handling more memory
than an individual instruction can access is both
innefficient and difficult is wrong on both
counts.
Try processing tables that straddle address-space boundaries, and you'll
see.
Anthony,
I don't know who wrote what program you believe
Anthony,
Most of what is printed on paper in the world doesn't pass
through a printer
driver on a PC or Mac.
Naw. MOST of what is printed on paper in the world DOES pass through a
printer driver on a PC or a Mac, simply because there are MILLIONS and
MILLIONS of homeowners and corporate PCs
On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 10:16:34 +0100 Major A ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
wrote:
Here is why I don't think it's necessary to have a CMYK colour space
for image manipulation:
CMYK is essential for people doing the whole prepress workflow so that what
they produce goes straight to a printer as an EPS or
On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:43:34 +0200 Roger Eritja ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
Digital photographers are
now being requested to perform most pre-press work (sometimes even
including blind CMYK conversion) before sending their images to the
publisher.
Yes, I've come across this, invariably from
Hi David,
'Doze, Anthony's claim that
handling more memory than an individual instruction can access is both
innefficient and difficult is wrong on both counts. Accessing the whole of
the address space from every instruction is hideously inefficient. Most
machines provide modes where a base
On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 08:59:38 -0400 Austin Franklin
([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
Er, yeah, just like the ones I, and everyone else, have in their home
office/basement...
Every billboard, magazine, newspaper, book, catalogue, postcard, bus
ticket, product wrapper, manual...
Hang on, something
On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:45:42 -0500 Laurie Solomon ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
wrote:
I just question these sorts of quasi-scientific and
psuedo-empirical assertions as grounds for legitimizing an opinion.
It's not 'pseudo-' anything, it's years of painful screw-ups - some by me,
many not - lost
Some of their practices were illegal; the practice being discussed here is
not.
Many of the Enron practices were not illegal; those that were more often
than not had to do with reporting practices vis-a-cis the government and
shareholders which violated SEC rules. The actual behavioral
Here is why I don't think it's necessary to have a CMYK colour space
for image manipulation:
CMYK is essential for people doing the whole prepress workflow so that what
they produce goes straight to a printer as an EPS or PDF. EG a photographer
producing his own postcards or posters or
Sure, but this is merely a software question really.
Once the software is in place, it behaves like hardware. Contrary to common
myth, even though software is not hardwired into a machine, it is
extraordinarily difficult to change, especially when loaded into hundreds of
millions of
Also, the 10-bit Giga-color display is something that can only be used by
launching an applet or Photoshop plug-in.
What I was actually refrring to was something else and not Giga-color.
Snippets from the Matrox web site and the Coloreal web site:
Coloreal® Visual by WayTech Development adds
Major A [EMAIL PROTECTED] contributed: Thanks Tony,
Anthony, and Austin for contributing to this thread. It seems there is a
3:1 majority here who thinks CMYK isn't of any use to the (digital)
photographer.
[snip]
Thus, I think CMYK is historical dead weight which has been obsolete at
least since
At 1:33 PM +0200 10/23/02, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
Blind CMYK is a really bad idea, since CMYK conversions must always be done
with a specific output device in mind. If the real output device isn't the
same, image quality is always lost, and it cannot be recovered.
At 1:33 PM +0200 10/23/02,
Also, 64 bits take us to the physical limits
of semiconductors ...
How?
As I said: 2^64 = 18446744073709551616. That's how much RAM can be
directly addressed using 64-bit address registers. Compare this to
roughly 10^23 silicon atoms in a large die like a CPU or RAM
chip. That is the bulk
Austin writes:
MOST of what is printed on paper in the world
DOES pass through a printer driver on a PC or
a Mac, simply because there are MILLIONS and
MILLIONS of homeowners and corporate PCs with
PS on it and an inkjet or laser printer attached.
A single offset web press for a newspaper
Tony,
I did not mean to get your twists into a panty or is it panties into a
twist. I am inclinded to agree with what YOU said and are saying and was
not referring to YOUR statements as psudo anything. As far as I can tell,
you made it clear that your reference was not to some world-wide
Andras writes:
If, as Anthony said, CMYK is useful for printing
work, then it only makes sense to use CMYK if you
do it in the colour space of the printer AND convert
to RGB using ICC colour profiles for display on
screen.
If you plan to print the photographs, CMYK is useful. It can even
Austin writes:
I don't know who wrote what program you believe
supports your claim ...
Any program that exhausts the direct address space, and unfortunately those
programs become more and more common as an architecture grows older.
As you aren't a hardware engineer, it makes
sense that you
The video card includes a 256-entry lookup table (for each color) which gets
loaded with a gamma correction curve (e.g., by Adobe Gamma Loader). Assuming
that table doesn't just have a straight line in it, some values will be
squeezed together, creating duplicates, and other values will be spread
Roger writes:
Enclosed are typical instructions from a digital
art web site, instructions which are required by
a number of scientific journals.
Write to them and INSIST that they give you the exact parameters for CMYK
conversions. If they don't know, get the names of their printers or
The x86 chips have a 46-bit segmented address space which funnels into a
32-bit virtual address space, which then expands into a paged physical
address space which is somewhat larger, depending upon the chip. The only OS
that exploits segmentation that I'm aware of is Intel's iRMX. Windows and
all
- Original Message -
From: Laurie Solomon [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 1:22 PM
Subject: [filmscanners] RE: Get a Mac...Digital Darkroom Computer
What the hell does this mean. A translation into non-vanacular American
English please so I will
Andras writes:
No. Applications get memory from the operating
system kernel.
No, they do not. In many systems, applications have free run of an entire
virtual address space, or nearly so, and can waste it to their heart's
content. I've seen mainframe systems crash after a few weeks when
From: Major A [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Also, 64 bits take us to the physical limits
of semiconductors ...
How?
As I said: 2^64 = 18446744073709551616. That's how much RAM can be
directly addressed using 64-bit address registers. Compare this to
roughly 10^23 silicon atoms in a large die
From what I can tell from Coloreal's web site, it's just another poor-man's
calibrator, like Adobe Gamma or Colorific (with trivial extensions for
multi-head video cards). If you don't have a colorimeter, that's as good as
you can do.
Of course, there's no such thing as accurate Internet color
Just because a magazine prints in more than 4 colors doesn't mean it's not CMYK -
Wired,
for instance, was for years CMYK plus two spot colors--often metallic silver and
day-glo
orange. (But I think Conde-Nast cut it back to 4 colors soon after they bought it--the
same
time they took out all
But these people don't want any color anyway, and maybe not even greyscale
Even if that were true, which it is in some cases when it comes to text
materials, they frequently do not have an option given that most of the
equipment (printers, faxes, copiers, etc.) are color these days. In the
case
Thanks Tony, Anthony, and Austin for contributing to this thread. It
seems there is a 3:1 majority here who thinks CMYK isn't of any use to
the (digital) photographer.
I don't think that is a legitimate conclusion to draw based on their posts.
For example, Tony did not say that CYMK isn't of
Anthohy,
As you aren't a hardware engineer, it makes
sense that you don't understand how this works,
and the real issues involved.
I've known exactly how it works for several decades now.
Oh really?
Austin
Hi Paul,
Yes, passing the 8 bit data through an 8 bit LUT would cause gaps/combining
in anything but a linear/monotonic LUT (1:1)...it simply has to, which is
the same reason to do tonal manipulations in a larger space.
The video card includes a 256-entry lookup table (for each color)
which
Anthony,
CMYK is very intimately related to
scanning.
Really? How so? What about it do you need to know to scan better?
I believe nothing. There is nothing in making your scan that you can do
differently given an intimate knowledge of CMYK or NO knowledge of it. If
there is, please name
Petru writes:
Clearly, these guys (myself included) must be idiots.
One need not be an idiot to make mistakes.
And we have been like that for years, it seems.
The problem has existed since time immemorial. Apparently engineers, as a
class, have difficulty in visualizing future evolution;
Arthur Entlich [EMAIL PROTECTED] reported: An off-shore
bank/investing company has stolen my email address for use for their
return address on a huge spam mailing.
Boy, that's a bummer. I think something similar happened to several
other people on the list. Their e-mail programs seem
Hi Paul,
Obviously, this isn't the case in the 64-bit versions of Windows for the
Alpha...
Er, I don't believe there is a 64 bit Windows for Alpha...
Austin
Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with
Anthony Atkielski wrote:
Exactly the same thing was said of 32 bits, and 16 bits, and even 8 bits no
doubt. Engineers _always_ get it wrong, and they _always_ refuse to believe
that they should build in more capacity for the future.
I doubt that, what was probably said was, ok, we can
** Reply to note from [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:43 +0100 (BST)
Has anybody succeeded in tattooing a photo onto themselves? Surely
there must be a market for adapted Epson 2200's with needle heads?
Dot matrix? but people tend to clog the rollers.
Charles
Anthony,
The mistake engineers make is in believing that address spaces will be
allocated sequentially starting with byte zero and ending with byte 2^N-1.
But that's not how it actually works. Engineers tend to assume
that a given
address space has more space than anyone will ever need and
Change
the kernel, and applications have access to more memory.
Up to the limit of the pointer and/or size variables used. If your code
Yes, sorry for not explicitly repeating that.
If you (not you specifically) understand how virtual memory works, and how
memory is allocated in a lot
I say make the effort and do it yourself.
I did and when I could not make heads or tails of local expressions, I noted
that and asked for a clarification in a more standard form of language which
an American is more likey to comprehend. That standard language does not
have to be an American
Paul,
Do they color manage their type? Color printing, yes, but black ink, no.
Austin
I don't think that comes close to the volume of printing represented by
daily newspapers. It's well-known that newspapers make up the largest
identifiable category of trash in landfills.
--
Ciao,
AND! after watching the Greatest Briton program which looked
at the work of Isambard Kingdom Brunel, I cannot believe you
are referring to Engineers in such a way :) I regularly travel
through his 1st tunnel (Wapping 1839), which has stood the test
of being built for foot, and now carries
That is sort of the impression that I had reading the write up; but I am
happy to have some verification that I was not missing something.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:filmscanners_owner;halftone.co.uk]On Behalf Of Paul D. DeRocco
Sent: Wednesday, October 23,
On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:06:24 -0300 Roger Smith ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
Color space requirements. All digital art submitted must be bitmap
(Monochrome), grayscale, or CMYK.
Graphics in the RGB color space (or Indexed color) will not separate
correctly. They are very difficult to detect
I think they played around with it internally, before the Itanium was out.
But you're right that there's no such thing available right now.
--
Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco
Paulmailto:pderocco;ix.netcom.com
From: Austin Franklin
Er, I don't believe there is a 64 bit
On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:27:25 -0400 ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
Huh? Okay, this OT discussion is going way beyond the limits of the
absurd.
Tony, please stop this thread ...
I have so far hinted gently. Please, chaps, if you want to divert into
discussing arcane geek sh*t like...
As I
In the real world, what winds up in the video card's lookup table is a
gentle curve whose slope probably remains well between 0.5 and 2. If anyone
can see the faint posterization that comes from having a 256x8 table under
any circumstances (and I never have), adding two fractional bits would
I have no idea. I'm pretty sure that color images in newspapers are CMYK,
not CMY. So what?
--
Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco
Paulmailto:pderocco;ix.netcom.com
From: Austin Franklin
Do they color manage their type? Color printing, yes, but black ink, no.
I don't
On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:45:38 -0400 Preston Earle ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
wrote:
Boy, that's a bummer. I think something similar happened to several
other people on the list. Their e-mail programs seem to be sending out
random messages with [filmscanners] headings but with nothing to do with
On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 11:21:27 -0700 Paul D. DeRocco
([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
I don't think that comes close to the volume of printing represented by
daily newspapers. It's well-known that newspapers make up the largest
identifiable category of trash in landfills.
...apart from offtopic
On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:05:42 -0500 Laurie Solomon ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
wrote:
For example, Tony did not say that CYMK isn't of any use to the digital
photographer; that is your interpretation.
To be clear what I said, or at least meant to say : CMYK may be of little
concern or obvious use to
Ok, something truly on topic.
What are the latest developments in Film scanners
that normal people might encounter in their
filmscanning purchase options.
Any real imporvements in dynamic range, bit depth,
resolution (4000 seems to have been enough), low
noise levels?
Once Tony stopped
- Original Message -
From: Laurie Solomon [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 6:10 PM
Subject: [filmscanners] RE: Get a Mac...Digital Darkroom Computer
The correct word is not vanacular
I beg your pardon. Venacular is the correct word; the
Hi Robert,
I think the main thing happening in the scanner industry is what is
happening in high tech overall. It's called we better cut our profit
margin so we can sell some of this stuff before it becomes obsolete...
It seems to be happening with film scanners, digital cameras, computers,
Wrong again Laurie. The correct word is vernacular. Is it your spelling
or
your vernacular English...
Very cute. You are right I did misspell it again. A point for you. I
already plead quilty to being a poor speller. Given that I am a poor
speller and that I have acknowledged it, I fail to see
Arthur Entlich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I think the main thing happening in the scanner industry is what is
happening in high tech overall. It's called we better cut our profit
margin so we can sell some of this stuff before it becomes obsolete...
Perhaps it's because Epson has just
The 64-bit WinXP is called Windows XP 64-bit Edition and it's a separate
product. There is also a 64-bit version of Win2K Advanced Server called
Windows Advanced Server, Limited Edition.
According to the Microsoft Developers Network web site, you can't run 32-bit
Windows on an Itanium because at
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