Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-26 Thread Michael Meyer
Many thanks for taking the time to give us these explanations, Craig. And
to you, Robert, for your answer to my question as well.

— Mike

On January 26, 2019 at 5:01:52 PM, Craig Parmerlee (cr...@parmerlee.com)
wrote:

> Here are some observations about each of the plug-in examples.  Let me
> stipulate that the Finale plug-ins might provide some unusual visual
> results that aren't directly matched by Dorico, so I am not claiming
> equivalence on any of these.
>
> 1. Copy arbitrary material regardless of barlines, etc.  This is
> inherent in Dorico, and I think you would find this far more productive
> in Dorico.  Dorico does not provide any drag-and-drop, but the cut and
> paste model is extremely powerful.  It even allows 1-to-many pasting,
> and pasting to discontinuous staffs and so on.  Also there is a very
> powerful capability where you can select any material, press "R" and it
> automatically duplicates the material placing it immediately to the
> right of the selection, which still expressing everything correctly with
> no touch-up required.
>
> 2. Mass relink.  This is inherent in Dorico.  Moreover, Dorico seems to
> make better assumptions about when to automatically reflect score
> changes in parts and vice versa.
>
> 3. Autocreate MM rests.  This is always automatic.  You never "create"
> any MM rests.  It is inherent. There are some options for visual
> appearance.
>
> 4. Multiple sets of not spacings.  I am not aware of anything line this
> in Dorico.  Of course you can edit the parts directly to apply any
> spacing you need.
>
> 5. Designate certain text as titles. There is only "text" and "system
> text" in Dorico.  There is no hierarchy of text objects, such as an
> outline mode in a word processor.  However, you have a great deal of
> control over the formatting of any text object and you can freely copy
> and reuse any of your text items.  So if you have a text object
> formatted as a "title", you can copy that anywhere else you need a
> similar title to appear.  Moreover, Dorico has a higher level of
> abstraction for these situations.  Your file can consist of multiple
> "flows", which are like movements. And each flow can have a title, with
> options how and when to display those titles.
>
> 6. Mass align hairpins.  There is no mass alignment, but if you have a
> 4-bar passage, you can enter the dynamic as "F" and Dorico will
> enter that dynamic as a group that is all aligned.  And if you copy that
> group to other staves, they will be aligned (taking in to account the
> collisions).  So if you enter it properly, you never need to go back and
> fix it.  Dorico moves the groups around (maintaining the alignment) as
> needed even if the music changes to create a new collision.
>
> 7. Various fixes.  Most of these situations just don't happen in
> Dorico.  And you have complete control over the rhythmic position and
> length of every object, so anything like this is very easy to fix.
>
> 8. Movements.  See 5 above.  it is far more elegant than in Finale.  And
> flows have other uses.  I often keep extra flows in my score as
> scratchpads or two different versions of a harmonization until I am sure
> I have it right.  I just did a big band chart that has a 16-bar a
> cappella fugue in 4 voices.  That was very tedious as I am not a fugue
> person, so I created a separate flow just for those 16 bars.  That
> 16-bar flow was reduced to only 4 players plus a chord playback staff so
> I could get all the counterpoint working.  Once that was right, I coped
> those 16 bars to the main flow and expanded the voices to let that
> section build over the 16 bars.  This is all very straightforward under
> Dorico.  You can certainly do something like that with Finale
> programming a view, but I'd probably put the scratchpad in a completely
> separate MUSX file.  Either way works, but it is much faster in Dorico
> because all of the above is just a few mouse clicks in setup mode.
>
> 9 Transfer page payout.  There is no template capability in Dorico,
> which is a bit of a weakness. However, if you have a score set up the
> way you like it, you can easily copy that and use that as the basis for
> your new project. And you can do that after the fact by exporting your
> flow(s) from one score and importing the flow(s) into the score that has
> the layout your want.  And as far as parts go, Dorico has a "master
> page" structure where you can develop a master page that can be used by
> any number of parts.  This area of Dorico is rather complicated, but
> looks very powerful.  I haven't used it much.
>
> 10.  TG Tools.  No questions on this one.
>
> 11. Proportionately scale staffs.  I don't know about this.  There are
> lots of options in Dorico for this kind of thing, but I don't know that
> any of them do what you want here.
>
> 12. Modeless plug-in problem.  I don't know about that.  There aren't
> any plugins in Dorico.  You can, however, do hot key assignments for any
> of hundreds of 

Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-26 Thread GERALD BERG
Thanks Craig. Most informative.


GJB

On Saturday, January 26, 2019, 5:02 PM, Craig Parmerlee  
wrote:

Here are some observations about each of the plug-in examples.  Let me 
stipulate that the Finale plug-ins might provide some unusual visual 
results that aren't directly matched by Dorico, so I am not claiming  
equivalence on any of these.

1. Copy arbitrary material regardless of barlines, etc.  This is 
inherent in Dorico, and I think you would find this far more productive 
in Dorico.  Dorico does not provide any drag-and-drop, but the cut and 
paste model is extremely powerful.  It even allows 1-to-many pasting, 
and pasting to discontinuous staffs and so on.  Also there is a very 
powerful capability where you can select any material, press "R" and it 
automatically duplicates the material placing it immediately to the 
right of the selection, which still expressing everything correctly with 
no touch-up required.

2. Mass relink.  This is inherent in Dorico.  Moreover, Dorico seems to 
make better assumptions about when to automatically reflect score 
changes in parts and vice versa.

3. Autocreate MM rests.  This is always automatic.  You never "create" 
any MM rests.  It is inherent. There are some options for visual appearance.

4. Multiple sets of not spacings.  I am not aware of anything line this 
in Dorico.  Of course you can edit the parts directly to apply any 
spacing you need.

5. Designate certain text as titles. There is only "text" and "system 
text" in Dorico.  There is no hierarchy of text objects, such as an 
outline mode in a word processor.  However, you have a great deal of 
control over the formatting of any text object and you can freely copy 
and reuse any of your text items.  So if you have a text object 
formatted as a "title", you can copy that anywhere else you need a 
similar title to appear.  Moreover, Dorico has a higher level of 
abstraction for these situations.  Your file can consist of multiple 
"flows", which are like movements. And each flow can have a title, with 
options how and when to display those titles.

6. Mass align hairpins.  There is no mass alignment, but if you have a 
4-bar passage, you can enter the dynamic as "F" and Dorico will 
enter that dynamic as a group that is all aligned.  And if you copy that 
group to other staves, they will be aligned (taking in to account the 
collisions).  So if you enter it properly, you never need to go back and 
fix it.  Dorico moves the groups around (maintaining the alignment) as 
needed even if the music changes to create a new collision.

7. Various fixes.  Most of these situations just don't happen in 
Dorico.  And you have complete control over the rhythmic position and 
length of every object, so anything like this is very easy to fix.

8. Movements.  See 5 above.  it is far more elegant than in Finale.  And 
flows have other uses.  I often keep extra flows in my score as 
scratchpads or two different versions of a harmonization until I am sure 
I have it right.  I just did a big band chart that has a 16-bar a 
cappella fugue in 4 voices.  That was very tedious as I am not a fugue 
person, so I created a separate flow just for those 16 bars.  That 
16-bar flow was reduced to only 4 players plus a chord playback staff so 
I could get all the counterpoint working.  Once that was right, I coped 
those 16 bars to the main flow and expanded the voices to let that 
section build over the 16 bars.  This is all very straightforward under 
Dorico.  You can certainly do something like that with Finale 
programming a view, but I'd probably put the scratchpad in a completely 
separate MUSX file.  Either way works, but it is much faster in Dorico 
because all of the above is just a few mouse clicks in setup mode.

9 Transfer page payout.  There is no template capability in Dorico, 
which is a bit of a weakness. However, if you have a score set up the 
way you like it, you can easily copy that and use that as the basis for 
your new project. And you can do that after the fact by exporting your 
flow(s) from one score and importing the flow(s) into the score that has 
the layout your want.  And as far as parts go, Dorico has a "master 
page" structure where you can develop a master page that can be used by 
any number of parts.  This area of Dorico is rather complicated, but 
looks very powerful.  I haven't used it much.

10.  TG Tools.  No questions on this one.

11. Proportionately scale staffs.  I don't know about this.  There are 
lots of options in Dorico for this kind of thing, but I don't know that 
any of them do what you want here.

12. Modeless plug-in problem.  I don't know about that.  There aren't 
any plugins in Dorico.  You can, however, do hot key assignments for any 
of hundreds of commands. And there are folks who are using the "Stream 
Deck" keypad to really boost their productivity.  I haven't done that 
yet.  That's not a direct replacement for plug-ins, but enables a 
different kind of 

Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-26 Thread David H. Bailey

Craig,

Thank you for sharing these thoughts.  You have made much more progress 
with Dorico than I have made, so I didn't feel qualified to respond. 
But I'm glad you were able to make the comparisons.


I know that becoming better acquainted with Dorico is in my imminent 
future, but most of the projects I've been working on lately have had 
short timetables so learning a new software hasn't been possible.


soon . . .

Thanks,
David


On 1/26/2019 5:01 PM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:
Here are some observations about each of the plug-in examples.  Let me 
stipulate that the Finale plug-ins might provide some unusual visual 
results that aren't directly matched by Dorico, so I am not claiming 
equivalence on any of these.


1. Copy arbitrary material regardless of barlines, etc.  This is 
inherent in Dorico, and I think you would find this far more productive 
in Dorico.  Dorico does not provide any drag-and-drop, but the cut and 
paste model is extremely powerful.  It even allows 1-to-many pasting, 
and pasting to discontinuous staffs and so on.  Also there is a very 
powerful capability where you can select any material, press "R" and it 
automatically duplicates the material placing it immediately to the 
right of the selection, which still expressing everything correctly with 
no touch-up required.


2. Mass relink.  This is inherent in Dorico.  Moreover, Dorico seems to 
make better assumptions about when to automatically reflect score 
changes in parts and vice versa.


3. Autocreate MM rests.  This is always automatic.  You never "create" 
any MM rests.  It is inherent. There are some options for visual 
appearance.


4. Multiple sets of not spacings.  I am not aware of anything line this 
in Dorico.  Of course you can edit the parts directly to apply any 
spacing you need.


5. Designate certain text as titles. There is only "text" and "system 
text" in Dorico.  There is no hierarchy of text objects, such as an 
outline mode in a word processor.  However, you have a great deal of 
control over the formatting of any text object and you can freely copy 
and reuse any of your text items.  So if you have a text object 
formatted as a "title", you can copy that anywhere else you need a 
similar title to appear.  Moreover, Dorico has a higher level of 
abstraction for these situations.  Your file can consist of multiple 
"flows", which are like movements. And each flow can have a title, with 
options how and when to display those titles.


6. Mass align hairpins.  There is no mass alignment, but if you have a 
4-bar passage, you can enter the dynamic as "F" and Dorico will 
enter that dynamic as a group that is all aligned.  And if you copy that 
group to other staves, they will be aligned (taking in to account the 
collisions).  So if you enter it properly, you never need to go back and 
fix it.  Dorico moves the groups around (maintaining the alignment) as 
needed even if the music changes to create a new collision.


7. Various fixes.  Most of these situations just don't happen in 
Dorico.  And you have complete control over the rhythmic position and 
length of every object, so anything like this is very easy to fix.


8. Movements.  See 5 above.  it is far more elegant than in Finale.  And 
flows have other uses.  I often keep extra flows in my score as 
scratchpads or two different versions of a harmonization until I am sure 
I have it right.  I just did a big band chart that has a 16-bar a 
cappella fugue in 4 voices.  That was very tedious as I am not a fugue 
person, so I created a separate flow just for those 16 bars.  That 
16-bar flow was reduced to only 4 players plus a chord playback staff so 
I could get all the counterpoint working.  Once that was right, I coped 
those 16 bars to the main flow and expanded the voices to let that 
section build over the 16 bars.  This is all very straightforward under 
Dorico.  You can certainly do something like that with Finale 
programming a view, but I'd probably put the scratchpad in a completely 
separate MUSX file.  Either way works, but it is much faster in Dorico 
because all of the above is just a few mouse clicks in setup mode.


9 Transfer page payout.  There is no template capability in Dorico, 
which is a bit of a weakness. However, if you have a score set up the 
way you like it, you can easily copy that and use that as the basis for 
your new project. And you can do that after the fact by exporting your 
flow(s) from one score and importing the flow(s) into the score that has 
the layout your want.  And as far as parts go, Dorico has a "master 
page" structure where you can develop a master page that can be used by 
any number of parts.  This area of Dorico is rather complicated, but 
looks very powerful.  I haven't used it much.


10.  TG Tools.  No questions on this one.

11. Proportionately scale staffs.  I don't know about this.  There are 
lots of options in Dorico for this kind of thing, but I don't know that 
any of them do what you 

Re: [Finale] Dorico and Sibelius

2019-01-26 Thread David H. Bailey

On 1/26/2019 2:42 PM, Howey, Henry wrote:

I have both. They make files that are just files. It’s a strength to some, to 
me a deal breaker.

Finale means that once the notes are entered, I can use them in a variety of 
ways.

Henry Howey
Sent from my iWhatever




I'm confused -- finale just makes files also.  All three notation 
products produce their own proprietary format, they can produce midi 
files and they can produce MusicXML files and they can export their 
notation as graphic files.


I don't see how Finale files are any more versatile, or how Sibelius and 
Dorico files are any less versatile than Finale files.


The one edge that Finale has (and I consider it only a very tiny edge) 
is that it can produce SmartMusic files.  Since I don't use SmartMusic 
and I am not producing files for others to use with SmartMusic, it's a 
meaningless tiny edge to me.


But then maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean, which wouldn't 
surprise me.


--
*
David H. Bailey
dhbaile...@comcast.net
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-26 Thread Craig Parmerlee
Here are some observations about each of the plug-in examples.  Let me 
stipulate that the Finale plug-ins might provide some unusual visual 
results that aren't directly matched by Dorico, so I am not claiming  
equivalence on any of these.


1. Copy arbitrary material regardless of barlines, etc.  This is 
inherent in Dorico, and I think you would find this far more productive 
in Dorico.  Dorico does not provide any drag-and-drop, but the cut and 
paste model is extremely powerful.  It even allows 1-to-many pasting, 
and pasting to discontinuous staffs and so on.  Also there is a very 
powerful capability where you can select any material, press "R" and it 
automatically duplicates the material placing it immediately to the 
right of the selection, which still expressing everything correctly with 
no touch-up required.


2. Mass relink.  This is inherent in Dorico.  Moreover, Dorico seems to 
make better assumptions about when to automatically reflect score 
changes in parts and vice versa.


3. Autocreate MM rests.  This is always automatic.  You never "create" 
any MM rests.  It is inherent. There are some options for visual appearance.


4. Multiple sets of not spacings.  I am not aware of anything line this 
in Dorico.  Of course you can edit the parts directly to apply any 
spacing you need.


5. Designate certain text as titles. There is only "text" and "system 
text" in Dorico.  There is no hierarchy of text objects, such as an 
outline mode in a word processor.  However, you have a great deal of 
control over the formatting of any text object and you can freely copy 
and reuse any of your text items.  So if you have a text object 
formatted as a "title", you can copy that anywhere else you need a 
similar title to appear.  Moreover, Dorico has a higher level of 
abstraction for these situations.  Your file can consist of multiple 
"flows", which are like movements. And each flow can have a title, with 
options how and when to display those titles.


6. Mass align hairpins.  There is no mass alignment, but if you have a 
4-bar passage, you can enter the dynamic as "F" and Dorico will 
enter that dynamic as a group that is all aligned.  And if you copy that 
group to other staves, they will be aligned (taking in to account the 
collisions).  So if you enter it properly, you never need to go back and 
fix it.  Dorico moves the groups around (maintaining the alignment) as 
needed even if the music changes to create a new collision.


7. Various fixes.  Most of these situations just don't happen in 
Dorico.  And you have complete control over the rhythmic position and 
length of every object, so anything like this is very easy to fix.


8. Movements.  See 5 above.  it is far more elegant than in Finale.  And 
flows have other uses.  I often keep extra flows in my score as 
scratchpads or two different versions of a harmonization until I am sure 
I have it right.  I just did a big band chart that has a 16-bar a 
cappella fugue in 4 voices.  That was very tedious as I am not a fugue 
person, so I created a separate flow just for those 16 bars.  That 
16-bar flow was reduced to only 4 players plus a chord playback staff so 
I could get all the counterpoint working.  Once that was right, I coped 
those 16 bars to the main flow and expanded the voices to let that 
section build over the 16 bars.  This is all very straightforward under 
Dorico.  You can certainly do something like that with Finale 
programming a view, but I'd probably put the scratchpad in a completely 
separate MUSX file.  Either way works, but it is much faster in Dorico 
because all of the above is just a few mouse clicks in setup mode.


9 Transfer page payout.  There is no template capability in Dorico, 
which is a bit of a weakness. However, if you have a score set up the 
way you like it, you can easily copy that and use that as the basis for 
your new project. And you can do that after the fact by exporting your 
flow(s) from one score and importing the flow(s) into the score that has 
the layout your want.  And as far as parts go, Dorico has a "master 
page" structure where you can develop a master page that can be used by 
any number of parts.  This area of Dorico is rather complicated, but 
looks very powerful.  I haven't used it much.


10.  TG Tools.  No questions on this one.

11. Proportionately scale staffs.  I don't know about this.  There are 
lots of options in Dorico for this kind of thing, but I don't know that 
any of them do what you want here.


12. Modeless plug-in problem.  I don't know about that.  There aren't 
any plugins in Dorico.  You can, however, do hot key assignments for any 
of hundreds of commands. And there are folks who are using the "Stream 
Deck" keypad to really boost their productivity.  I haven't done that 
yet.  That's not a direct replacement for plug-ins, but enables a 
different kind of workflow that may enable even greater productivity 
than you get from plug-ins.


I'm not trying to 

Re: [Finale] Fwd: Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-26 Thread Craig Parmerlee
It is very difficult to compare Dorico with the other products because 
Dorico operates on a different plane.  Whether that different plane is 
good for a person might depend  on many factors.  I am not here to claim 
it is better for everybody, but I definitely am far more productive with 
Dorico than I have been with any other notation product.  I don't do 
anything very exotic in my scores.  I mainly write jazz band 
arrangements, straightforward full-orchestra pieces, lead sheets and 
similar things.  I don't do any "experimental music" that might call for 
daring, unconventional or very complex notation. So I cannot comment on 
how well Dorico does with those things.


There is one major architectural piece that makes a big difference.  
Beyond that, my productivity comes from a minute saved here and there.  
It all adds up.  The big architectural piece is that you don't actually 
enter notes in the traditional sense.  You give Dorico pitches that have 
a starting place and a length.  They don't even have to be within 
measures that have a distinct time signature.  Dorico uses its own rules 
(that are highly customize-able) to express that information as notes.  
So it seems like directly entering notes, just like any other program.  
All programs let you easily change pitches.  But the big difference is 
that Dorico makes it very easy to change the starting point and duration 
of any item.  And here's the big thing: it is IMPOSSIBLE for the updated 
information to be notated badly because Dorico is in charge of 
expressing the notes, separate from the internal storage of the music.  
With Finale, when you drag and drop a passage, if it ends up in a 
different rhythmic place, you may have to spend several minutes cleaning 
up the notes to make them show correctly.  You never do that with 
Dorico.  Similarly, things like cautionary accidentals are applied 
automatically in real time.  It is impossible to miss a cautionary 
accidental or do it wrong.  There are more cases like this.  This really 
makes a big difference and obviates the need for most of the situations 
for which people have relied on plug-ins in Finale.


Similarly, chords have an internal and external representation.  There 
is only one internal representation for Maj7 for example.  However, you 
can select rules that govern how you want the chords displayed (e.g. 
Cmaj7, CM7, Ctriangle7, etc). It is impossible for the symbols to be 
displayed incorrectly, and you can change your rules at any time without 
ever having to change your score.  It instantly re-draws according to 
the rules.  And chord entry is far more forgiving in Dorico.  You can 
type in chord spellings using any of the typical conventions and Dorico 
will handle it.  It is as easy to enter chords into Dorico as into 
Band-in-a-box, if you are familiar with that.  Huge time savings for me 
on that item alone.


Lots of little things.  You can copy any text element and place the copy 
anywhere you need it; and this is rich text that has lats of formatting 
control.


The big time savings come from the final parts layout.  I literally 
spend 5-10 minutes per 2-page part in Finale editing the layout.  You do 
very little of this in Dorico.  Most automatic decisions are pretty good 
and you can quickly tweak the things you don't like.  On a big band 
chart with 17 parts, I will easily save an hour in final editing, 
usually more than that.


I know you are deeply invested in plug-ins.  I'd bet half of the current 
Finale plug-ins would not be needed at all in Dorico, but some of the 
others might be badly missed.  So it becomes a question of whether the 
necessary changes in workflow would give you a faster, higher-quality 
end product. I cannot answer that.  I know the trade-off is heavily in 
Dorico's favor for the things I do, but it might not be so clear cut for 
others.






On 1/25/2019 11:03 AM, Robert Patterson wrote:

I would be very interested to know more specifics about the things that are
"well beyond Fin/Sib". Graphically, I know about flexible slurs, and I
would be curious to know if lines (like 8va) also have multiple inflection
points.

Beyond that, I would be curious to know what makes Dorico so much more
superior for part layout.

Do you use any 3rd party plugins with Finale? In my experience, working
without key 3rd party plugins in Finale is the slag mines. But I've
developed a workflow using several key plugins that is very fast for many
of the things you mentioned. In fact, it is difficult to imagine them being
much faster.

ymmv




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[Finale] Dorico and Sibelius

2019-01-26 Thread Howey, Henry
I have both. They make files that are just files. It’s a strength to some, to 
me a deal breaker.

Finale means that once the notes are entered, I can use them in a variety of 
ways.

Henry Howey
Sent from my iWhatever
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Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-26 Thread Robert Patterson
Many that I described are plugins that I developed myself and are available
in the Patterson Plugins Collection at my website. Some are in the full
version of TGTools. Some are available as free downloads on Jari
Williamsson's website.

On Sat, Jan 26, 2019 at 11:03 AM Michael Meyer  wrote:

> So Robert, when you say “3rd party plugin” do you mean plugins that others
> have made that you’ve procured along the way? Or “3rd party” meaning “not
> included in the included Finale plugins” and so you have made all of these
> on your own?
>
> Just a question out of curiosity more than anything. Thanks for all of your
> descriptions here, this is an amazing discussion! And I would love to hear
> how many of these are addressed in Dorico out-of-the-box from someone who
> is using it regularly.
>
> — Mike
>
> On January 26, 2019 at 10:04:45 AM, Robert Patterson (
> rob...@robertgpatterson.com) wrote:
>
> > Besides the Patterson Beams, TGTools, and JW plugins included in Finale,
> I
> > use 3rd party plugins to
> >
> > 1. Copy arbitrary combinations and patterns of expressions, dynamics,
> > articulations, and other elements in a repeated fashion, independent of
> > barlines, both vertically and horizontally.
> >
> > 2. Mass Relink, which can relink the score to the part's settings or vice
> > versa.
> >
> > 3. Autocreate multimeasure rests with many more options than Finale has,
> > including the ability to add extra space for clef changes or force the
> > creation of multimeasure rests in places where Finale won't create them.
> >
> > 4. Maintain multiple sets of note spacing settings per measure region and
> > per part. Then a single invocation of the plugin spaces the music
> according
> > to those settings, taking into account the current part. Even better, by
> > means of a nifty trick that someone suggested on this list. the plugins
> can
> > get tighter spacing with ledger lines than Finale does.
> >
> > 5. Designate certain text expressions as titles (i.e., for movement
> titles)
> > or footnotes or headnotes. Then invoke a plugin than finds them in every
> > part and correctly positions them. This is *way* better workaround than
> > Finale's Page Titles for this kind of thing.
> >
> > 6. Mass align and move dynamics and hairpins. (TGTools Align/Move is
> > included in Finale but the version in the full TGTools is much more
> > powerful.)
> >
> > 7. Quickly repair common screwups in Finale, such as restoring lost note
> > spacing from a saved copy or moving expressions and endpoints that have
> > lost their notes due to Speedy edits.
> >
> > 8. With one simple menu click, start a new movement. That is, show full
> > names, indent the first system, restart the measure numbers from 1,
> twiddle
> > the measure bits in the current and preceding measure as needed. With one
> > menu click that has no dialog box.
> >
> > 9. Transfer page layout from one document to another and/or one part to
> > another and/or within a single document or part. Including (optionally)
> > system baselines for expressions and lyrics.
> >
> > 10. I recently discovered the JW Change plugin that can do so much that I
> > have only begun to digest all the ways in which I might use it.
> >
> > 11. TGTools has an option to proportionally expand or contract the staves
> > in a system. This saves me hours, especially on large multistaff scores
> > like orchestra scores. Then once you have that system perfectly fitted to
> > your margins, you can copy the staff layout to page after page and make
> > only minor tweaks thereafter.
> >
> > 12. Fix the focus problem with modeless plugin windows on Mac (Fin25.4
> and
> > higher).
> >
> > There are doubtless many, many others, but those come to mind right now.
> >
> > When I sit down to work on plugins, I try to think of every pain point in
> > using this beast of a program called Finale. Sometimes I note the pain
> > points as I work on a piece. Either way, after 20 years of this I am just
> > about out of ideas. I've addressed every pain point I can think of that a
> > plugin can address. There are a few that are intractable in current
> Finale,
> > but even for those I've tried to develop palliative workarounds. (Like
> > using expressions for movement titles.) Sometimes it takes years for me
> to
> > realize a plugin can even do something. Like for years I thought plugins
> > could not relink scores and parts, since linkage is not visible to
> plugins.
> > But then I thought of a way that works for most unlinkable items.
> >
> > If you want to share your pain points, I'll tell you if there is a plugin
> > solution I use. Because there probably is. (Other than playback. I don't
> do
> > much with playback.)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 26, 2019 at 6:09 AM Lawrence David Eden 
> > wrote:
> >
> > This is an interesting discussion….I am interested in hearing what 3rd
> > party plugins are you referring to, Robert. I am always looking for ways
> > to automate Finale.
> >
> > 

Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-26 Thread Michael Meyer
So Robert, when you say “3rd party plugin” do you mean plugins that others
have made that you’ve procured along the way? Or “3rd party” meaning “not
included in the included Finale plugins” and so you have made all of these
on your own?

Just a question out of curiosity more than anything. Thanks for all of your
descriptions here, this is an amazing discussion! And I would love to hear
how many of these are addressed in Dorico out-of-the-box from someone who
is using it regularly.

— Mike

On January 26, 2019 at 10:04:45 AM, Robert Patterson (
rob...@robertgpatterson.com) wrote:

> Besides the Patterson Beams, TGTools, and JW plugins included in Finale, I
> use 3rd party plugins to
>
> 1. Copy arbitrary combinations and patterns of expressions, dynamics,
> articulations, and other elements in a repeated fashion, independent of
> barlines, both vertically and horizontally.
>
> 2. Mass Relink, which can relink the score to the part's settings or vice
> versa.
>
> 3. Autocreate multimeasure rests with many more options than Finale has,
> including the ability to add extra space for clef changes or force the
> creation of multimeasure rests in places where Finale won't create them.
>
> 4. Maintain multiple sets of note spacing settings per measure region and
> per part. Then a single invocation of the plugin spaces the music according
> to those settings, taking into account the current part. Even better, by
> means of a nifty trick that someone suggested on this list. the plugins can
> get tighter spacing with ledger lines than Finale does.
>
> 5. Designate certain text expressions as titles (i.e., for movement titles)
> or footnotes or headnotes. Then invoke a plugin than finds them in every
> part and correctly positions them. This is *way* better workaround than
> Finale's Page Titles for this kind of thing.
>
> 6. Mass align and move dynamics and hairpins. (TGTools Align/Move is
> included in Finale but the version in the full TGTools is much more
> powerful.)
>
> 7. Quickly repair common screwups in Finale, such as restoring lost note
> spacing from a saved copy or moving expressions and endpoints that have
> lost their notes due to Speedy edits.
>
> 8. With one simple menu click, start a new movement. That is, show full
> names, indent the first system, restart the measure numbers from 1, twiddle
> the measure bits in the current and preceding measure as needed. With one
> menu click that has no dialog box.
>
> 9. Transfer page layout from one document to another and/or one part to
> another and/or within a single document or part. Including (optionally)
> system baselines for expressions and lyrics.
>
> 10. I recently discovered the JW Change plugin that can do so much that I
> have only begun to digest all the ways in which I might use it.
>
> 11. TGTools has an option to proportionally expand or contract the staves
> in a system. This saves me hours, especially on large multistaff scores
> like orchestra scores. Then once you have that system perfectly fitted to
> your margins, you can copy the staff layout to page after page and make
> only minor tweaks thereafter.
>
> 12. Fix the focus problem with modeless plugin windows on Mac (Fin25.4 and
> higher).
>
> There are doubtless many, many others, but those come to mind right now.
>
> When I sit down to work on plugins, I try to think of every pain point in
> using this beast of a program called Finale. Sometimes I note the pain
> points as I work on a piece. Either way, after 20 years of this I am just
> about out of ideas. I've addressed every pain point I can think of that a
> plugin can address. There are a few that are intractable in current Finale,
> but even for those I've tried to develop palliative workarounds. (Like
> using expressions for movement titles.) Sometimes it takes years for me to
> realize a plugin can even do something. Like for years I thought plugins
> could not relink scores and parts, since linkage is not visible to plugins.
> But then I thought of a way that works for most unlinkable items.
>
> If you want to share your pain points, I'll tell you if there is a plugin
> solution I use. Because there probably is. (Other than playback. I don't do
> much with playback.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 26, 2019 at 6:09 AM Lawrence David Eden 
> wrote:
>
> This is an interesting discussion….I am interested in hearing what 3rd
> party plugins are you referring to, Robert. I am always looking for ways
> to automate Finale.
>
> Larry Eden
>
> On Jan 25, 2019, at 11:03 AM, Robert Patterson <
>
> rob...@robertgpatterson.com> wrote:
>
>
> I would be very interested to know more specifics about the things that
>
> are
>
> "well beyond Fin/Sib". Graphically, I know about flexible slurs, and I
> would be curious to know if lines (like 8va) also have multiple
>
> inflection
>
> points.
>
> Beyond that, I would be curious to know what makes Dorico so much more
> superior for part layout.
>
> Do you use any 3rd party plugins with Finale? In 

Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-26 Thread Robert Patterson
Besides the Patterson Beams, TGTools, and JW plugins included in Finale, I
use 3rd party plugins to

1. Copy arbitrary combinations and patterns of expressions, dynamics,
articulations, and other elements in a repeated fashion, independent of
barlines, both vertically and horizontally.

2. Mass Relink, which can relink the score to the part's settings or vice
versa.

3. Autocreate multimeasure rests with many more options than Finale has,
including the ability to add extra space for clef changes or force the
creation of multimeasure rests in places where Finale won't create them.

4. Maintain multiple sets of note spacing settings per measure region and
per part. Then a single invocation of the plugin spaces the music according
to those settings, taking into account the current part. Even better, by
means of a nifty trick that someone suggested on this list. the plugins can
get tighter spacing with ledger lines than Finale does.

5. Designate certain text expressions as titles (i.e., for movement titles)
or footnotes or headnotes. Then invoke a plugin than finds them in every
part and correctly positions them. This is *way* better workaround than
Finale's Page Titles for this kind of thing.

6. Mass align and move dynamics and hairpins. (TGTools Align/Move is
included in Finale but the version in the full TGTools is much more
powerful.)

7. Quickly repair common screwups in Finale, such as restoring lost note
spacing from a saved copy or moving expressions and endpoints that have
lost their notes due to Speedy edits.

8. With one simple menu click, start a new movement. That is, show full
names, indent the first system, restart the measure numbers from 1, twiddle
the measure bits in the current and preceding measure as needed. With one
menu click that has no dialog box.

9. Transfer page layout from one document to another and/or one part to
another and/or within a single document or part. Including (optionally)
system baselines for expressions and lyrics.

10. I recently discovered the JW Change plugin that can do so much that I
have only begun to digest all the ways in which I might use it.

11. TGTools has an option to proportionally expand or contract the staves
in a system. This saves me hours, especially on large multistaff scores
like orchestra scores. Then once you have that system perfectly fitted to
your margins, you can copy the staff layout to page after page and make
only minor tweaks thereafter.

12. Fix the focus problem with modeless plugin windows on Mac (Fin25.4 and
higher).

There are doubtless many, many others, but those come to mind right now.

When I sit down to work on plugins, I try to think of every pain point in
using this beast of a program called Finale. Sometimes I note the pain
points as I work on a piece. Either way, after 20 years of this I am just
about out of ideas. I've addressed every pain point I can think of that a
plugin can address. There are a few that are intractable in current Finale,
but even for those I've tried to develop palliative workarounds. (Like
using expressions for movement titles.) Sometimes it takes years for me to
realize a plugin can even do something. Like for years I thought plugins
could not relink scores and parts, since linkage is not visible to plugins.
But then I thought of a way that works for most unlinkable items.

If you want to share your pain points, I'll tell you if there is a plugin
solution I use. Because there probably is. (Other than playback. I don't do
much with playback.)








On Sat, Jan 26, 2019 at 6:09 AM Lawrence David Eden 
wrote:

> This is an interesting discussion….I am interested in hearing what 3rd
> party plugins are you referring to, Robert.   I am always looking for ways
> to automate Finale.
>
> Larry Eden
>
> > On Jan 25, 2019, at 11:03 AM, Robert Patterson <
> rob...@robertgpatterson.com> wrote:
> >
> > I would be very interested to know more specifics about the things that
> are
> > "well beyond Fin/Sib". Graphically, I know about flexible slurs, and I
> > would be curious to know if lines (like 8va) also have multiple
> inflection
> > points.
> >
> > Beyond that, I would be curious to know what makes Dorico so much more
> > superior for part layout.
> >
> > Do you use any 3rd party plugins with Finale? In my experience, working
> > without key 3rd party plugins in Finale is the slag mines. But I've
> > developed a workflow using several key plugins that is very fast for many
> > of the things you mentioned. In fact, it is difficult to imagine them
> being
> > much faster.
> >
> > ymmv
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 2:38 PM Craig Parmerlee 
> wrote:
> >
> >> I would also note Sibelius 2019 was announced this week.  It seems to be
> >> roughly the same magnitude of the Finale 26 release.  I am sure the
> >> improvements are welcome, but really, this is a minuscule amount of
> >> improvement for a paid release.  Dorico is adding capability 10-to-100
> >> times faster than either Finale or Sibelius.
> >>

Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-26 Thread Lawrence David Eden
This is an interesting discussion….I am interested in hearing what 3rd party 
plugins are you referring to, Robert.   I am always looking for ways to 
automate Finale.

Larry Eden

> On Jan 25, 2019, at 11:03 AM, Robert Patterson  
> wrote:
> 
> I would be very interested to know more specifics about the things that are
> "well beyond Fin/Sib". Graphically, I know about flexible slurs, and I
> would be curious to know if lines (like 8va) also have multiple inflection
> points.
> 
> Beyond that, I would be curious to know what makes Dorico so much more
> superior for part layout.
> 
> Do you use any 3rd party plugins with Finale? In my experience, working
> without key 3rd party plugins in Finale is the slag mines. But I've
> developed a workflow using several key plugins that is very fast for many
> of the things you mentioned. In fact, it is difficult to imagine them being
> much faster.
> 
> ymmv
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 2:38 PM Craig Parmerlee  wrote:
> 
>> I would also note Sibelius 2019 was announced this week.  It seems to be
>> roughly the same magnitude of the Finale 26 release.  I am sure the
>> improvements are welcome, but really, this is a minuscule amount of
>> improvement for a paid release.  Dorico is adding capability 10-to-100
>> times faster than either Finale or Sibelius.
>> 
>> Dorico has a steep learning curve, and it is getting steeper all the
>> time as layers of capability are added.  It still lacks a few things
>> that the other programs have. For example, there is not yet any
>> automatic way to have a single line in the score (e.g. FHorn 1&3) break
>> out to separate parts for Fhorn 1 and FHorn 3.  And Dorico's automatic
>> playback isn't as advanced as Finale Human Playback.  But Dorico already
>> does some things that are well beyond Finale and Sibelius.  Moreover,
>> the architecture is more elegant, particularly in the ability to lay out
>> music intelligently in a minimum amount of time.  On the playback side,
>> many people are using Note Performer with Dorico and claiming very good
>> results.  I don't care that much.  The playback is good enough for what
>> I do.
>> 
>> I still have Finale 25 installed in case it is required for a
>> collaboration, but I am doing all my new projects in Dorico now.  I find
>> a typical project is taking about half as long with Dorico as I would
>> have spent in Finale.  Much of that comes at the back end where I had to
>> spend hours in final editing of part layouts.  With Dorico I typically
>> spend about one minute per page for part layout -- sometimes no editing
>> at all. But Dorico also provides big opportunities for time saving
>> during the note entry and harmonization processes.
>> 
>> 
>> On 1/22/2019 8:21 AM, David H. Bailey wrote:
>>> Hello Finale and Sibelius Friends,
>>> 
>>> I'm forwarding this message to both the Finale and Sibelius groups, in
>>> case anybody is interested in exploring Dorico.  Using the code
>>> DORICO30 you can get 30% off of either Dorico 2 or Dorico Elements 2
>>> (a lighter version of Dorico) for this week only apparently.
>>> 
>>> Both of those programs also have free demo versions you can download
>>> and explore.
>>> 
>>> I'm not trying to push it on anybody but I know some people might be
>>> curious.  Version 2 brought many major improvements over version 1.
>>> 
>>> I freely admit that I am still not very fluent in Dorico, knowing that
>>> it will take me a lot of work to master it, but I also know there are
>>> people in both Finale and Sibelius groups who have taken to Dorico and
>>> are doing major projects in it.
>>> 
>>> There is a forum at steinberg.net for people who want to get a sense
>>> of how users are faring with the product.
>>> 
>>> Dorico still uses their elicenser software or their extra-cost USB
>>> dongle, so for people who are vehemently opposed to such anti-piracy
>>> methods, nothing has changed and you probably won't want to explore
>>> Dorico beyond the demo versions (I don't know if those have any
>>> anti-piracy methods since they're freely distributed by Steinberg.)
>>> 
>>> However, given the lack of forward motion in Sibelius and the lack of
>>> substantive improvements in Finale beyond the automatic stacking of
>>> articulations, Dorico may well be the future of professional level
>>> computer notation software.
>>> 
>>> Just wanted to let you all know,
>>> David H. Bailey
>> 
>> 
>> ---
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