Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question

2010-10-30 Thread Lawrence Yates
For those of us who play natural horn, parts transposed for horn in F are a nuisance I did a concert last week where we had to back-transpose bnrcause orignal parts were not provided. Even when I play the modern instrument I would never play from transposed parts - as John said, there is

Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question

2010-10-30 Thread Florence + Michael
The last time I had to mark up a set of orchestral parts from a critical Bärenreiter edition of a Mozart opera, there were two sets of horn parts. The horn players told me they preferred to use the parts written as in the original, without key signatures. As to David's original question, I

{Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question

2010-10-30 Thread John Howell
At 11:29 PM -0500 10/29/10, Robert Patterson wrote: I don't personally know a single professional horn player who works from F-transposed parts. Yes, and that's what the folks on the jazz and commercial side need to understand. Part of an orchestral horn player's pre-professional education

Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question

2010-10-30 Thread David W. Fenton
On 29 Oct 2010 at 23:29, Robert Patterson wrote: I can't speak about critical editions of classical pieces, because I've only seen original notation in those editions. (Frankly, it surprises me to learn an F-transposed part might be available from, e.g., Bärenreiter.) Nobody said that such a

{Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question

2010-10-30 Thread David W. Fenton
On 30 Oct 2010 at 10:01, Florence + Michael wrote: The last time I had to mark up a set of orchestral parts from a critical Bärenreiter edition of a Mozart opera, there were two sets of horn parts. The horn players told me they preferred to use the parts written as in the original, without

Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question

2010-10-30 Thread Robert Patterson
I agree, nobody said it. It was surprising to think about the possibility considering who I would have thought the target market for a critical edition might be. I can state that many performance materials based on critical editions do not include F-transposed horn parts. (My knowledge is mainly

Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question

2010-10-30 Thread Kim Patrick Clow
I know you were asking about horns, but a flute/recorder friend of mine mentioned in passing that the Barenreiter edition of Handel's Water Music has the flute part( (in the G major suite) in the original French violin clef and it was for a flute tuned to G. She hated the fact she was having to

Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question

2010-10-30 Thread Raymond Horton
Pro horn players prefer the original parts, yes, but that flute part is a whole different ball o' worms. Slip a transposed part in there, goodness! Raymond Horton Composer, Arranger Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC VISIT US at rayhortonmusic.com

Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question

2010-10-30 Thread John Howell
At 7:21 PM -0400 10/30/10, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: I know you were asking about horns, but a flute/recorder friend of mine mentioned in passing that the Barenreiter edition of Handel's Water Music has the flute part( (in the G major suite) in the original French violin clef and it was for a

Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question

2010-10-30 Thread Raymond Horton
As far as horn transpositions go, the worst are not the Brahms parts in H. The worst are the Wagner parts that change transposition every few bars - part of the early experimentation in which Wagner treated valves as quick-change crooks. In the first 16 bars of the first horn part of the famous

{Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question

2010-10-29 Thread David W. Fenton
On 29 Oct 2010 at 14:58, Steve Parker wrote: It is the tradition for horns to write the parts transposed but without key signature. It's not just tradition, but the only thing that made sense. But my question is *not* about what the standard tradition is, but whether or not the different

Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question

2010-10-29 Thread Steve Parker
Ah now I get you.. so the horns have a Bb in the key signature. I've seen this but have put it down to a bungling of the standard practise by turn of the century editors. I'm interested now if there has been any reason or rhyme to it. Steve On 29 Oct 2010, at 17:12, David W. Fenton

{Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question

2010-10-29 Thread Chuck Israels
Curious - why is the convention not to have key signatures in horn parts, when all other transposing instruments have them? What is the use of this convention? Chuck On Oct 29, 2010, at 10:35 AM, Steve Parker wrote: Ah now I get you.. so the horns have a Bb in the key signature. I've

{Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question

2010-10-29 Thread David H. Bailey
On 10/29/2010 3:06 PM, Chuck Israels wrote: Curious - why is the convention not to have key signatures in horn parts, when all other transposing instruments have them? What is the use of this convention? Historically, trumpets, horns and timpani didn't have key signatures. This is back

Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question

2010-10-29 Thread Robert Patterson
It's not so much that they were leaving off a key signature as that the correct key signature was (usually) C. In the days before valved horns the horns were most often crooked in the key of the piece. Even when the correct key signature was not the same as the crook, the playing technique lent

Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question

2010-10-29 Thread David W. Fenton
On 29 Oct 2010 at 12:06, Chuck Israels wrote: Curious - why is the convention not to have key signatures in horn parts, when all other transposing instruments have them? What is the use of this convention? From the period before valved horns it made perfect sense to write the part in C for

Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question

2010-10-29 Thread John Howell
At 12:06 PM -0700 10/29/10, Chuck Israels wrote: Curious - why is the convention not to have key signatures in horn parts, when all other transposing instruments have them? What is the use of this convention? The convention applies to both natural trumpet and natural horn parts, and the

Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question

2010-10-29 Thread Chuck Israels
Thanks, John, Robert and David. That is the explanation I expected, but it's hard for me to swallow the reasoning that this tradition should hold for modern valved horns and not for trumpets - more or less modern valved bugles. Doesn't make sense to me, and if there is a defensible new

Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question

2010-10-29 Thread David W. Fenton
On 29 Oct 2010 at 16:53, Chuck Israels wrote: That is the explanation I expected, but it's hard for me to swallow the reasoning that this tradition should hold for modern valved horns and not for trumpets - more or less modern valved bugles. Er, I think you've misunderstood, because nobody

Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question

2010-10-29 Thread Christopher Smith
On Fri Oct 29, at FridayOct 29 8:22 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: Doesn't make sense to me, and if there is a defensible new convention that says treat all transposing instruments equally (with key signatures), I choose that option. That's the modern practice. But the old practice lasted

Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question

2010-10-29 Thread John Howell
At 8:22 PM -0400 10/29/10, David W. Fenton wrote: On 29 Oct 2010 at 16:53, Chuck Israels wrote: That is the explanation I expected, but it's hard for me to swallow the reasoning that this tradition should hold for modern valved horns and not for trumpets - more or less modern valved bugles.

Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question

2010-10-29 Thread Robert Patterson
Speaking for myself, I pencil in most accidentals from key signatures. I primarily encounter key signatures in pops arrangements where rehearsal time is extremely tight. Better safe than sorry. But that doesn't mean we complain about it either. I can't speak about critical editions of classical