Re: [Finale] Band/wind ensemble questions
Paper size. For parts, please don’t use anything larger than 10x13. The folders that the players keep their music in aren’t much wider than that. For score, 11x17 is pretty standard since it’s a standard page size. Personally, I feel 11x14 is more elegant, but 11x15 should be fine. In the publishing industry, concert band music is usually printed on 9x12 for both score and parts. Not much bigger than 11x17 if you have a large score system. But, don’t be afraid to use really tight spacing, it’s very common in this genre. Solo/tutti rules apply. I use “one player” or “two players” if I want a change in texture. The term “solo” does mean the same thing as “one player”, but “solo” implies some melodic importance, rather than just a deliberate thinning of the texture. You should double up the parts on one staff in the score to save vertical space. Flutes 1.2. Oboes 1.2. The parts of course should all be individual for the player/section. Cornets and trumpets are nearly identical in all respects, except one is conical and the other cylindrical. The cornet will have a more rounded tone like other conical brass. It’s basically a soprano tuba. Cornet is incredibly agile (some would say more so than the trumpet). Check out some YouTube videos of Brass Bands (especially from Britain) to hear what I mean. https://youtu.be/nOf5gk0GMhI However, that being said, it’s very common to just use trumpet parts in band. And, unfortunately, most bands will play cornet parts on the trumpet, due to a lack of equipment (common in school bands). Personally, I like 3 trumpet parts, but I’ve seen many with 4, and a few with 6, but those were very high level pieces, not the standard school band repertoire. I’d use all the flutes. You don’t need to write separate parts for them all. Two parts, plus Picc is standard. Let the director decide if one of the parts should be doubled or not. Although, having a doubler on the 1st part could allow you to write some needed divisi for tricky technical passages. Ryan > On Aug 7, 2018, at 2:10 PM, David Froom wrote: > > Hi Christopher and Ryan, > > Thank you both for amazingly helpful responses!!! > > This leads two more questions: > > Paper size: > If you are not removing any staves, this is pretty tiny! I printed out a test > page, and even with some of my tricks (thicker staff lines, bigger notehead > size), it seems small. I printed out a first page on 11x15 paper, which is > what my publisher recommends as largest standard (just a bit smaller than > European A3). I know that 12x18, largest my personal printer can handle, is > rather cumbersome on the stand. What paper size do you use and/or what do you > see when others give you band/w.e. scores? > > Massed clarinets: > If I decide to go with massed Bb clarinets (they are typically 5-4-4 on three > different parts), do I use solo/tutti as I would for string sections? How > otherwise would I indicate I really want just one of them at any particular > time? > > And some comments — please let me know if I’m going astray here: > > 1) I am thinking of writing for all trumpets, no cornets. The conductor says > all cornets double trumpet, and my guess is that they all had trumpets as > their main instruments in grad school. That said, I won’t use all 8 of them > (their normal setup is 2-2-2 cornets plus 2 trumpets). I might use, instead, > 3 or 4. I am doing this because I DON’T have experience writing for cornets, > and so don’t have that sound in my head. > > 2) The list I have of available players doesn’t say massed flutes, just picc, > then three flutes with two doubling the first part. I am leaning towards picc > plus just two flutes. > > Thanks again! > > David > >> Christopher Smith wrote: >> >> Hi David, >> >> I conduct a wind ensemble, and arrange for it. >> >> 1. I?ve seen both, but the modern preference is for bassoons to go below the >> low clarinets. >> >> 2. Again, I?ve seen both, but trumpets, horns, trombones is the way I see it >> most often. This is even more universal than the bassoon placement. >> >> 3. The string bass is as you said. It only makes sense to put it at the very >> bottom if there is an actual string section. In this case, it?s a pairing >> with tuba. >> >> I?m glad you have separate cornet and trumpet parts. I prefer that, >> especially with someone who can write for it and players with the correct >> instruments. >> >> The doubled parts are for weight, so as to allow say Clarinet 1 to be heard >> as easily as Trumpet 1. I might be happy with one to a part in the trumpet >> section, but bands that work the way you outlined let the trumpets play >> warmly, so one player doesn?t HAVE to carry the weight by himself. Trumpets >> play much more often in concert band than in orchestra, so they can use the >> endurance help of playing more softly. The clarinets are the workhorses in a >> concert band, so the numbers you say are by no means
Re: [Finale] Band/wind ensemble questions
You should double up parts on the score. Since cues, grace notes, and the like screw up linked parts in that case, you should probably have a separate file for all the parts, each on its own staff. I prefer to work this way, and combine to make the score at the end. It makes copying from one part to another much easier. Piccolo alone Fl 1+2 Ob 1+2 Cl 1 Cl 2+3 etc., generally leaving the first part alone on a staff when there are odd numbers of instruments. I indicate “One player” when I want that. You can apply it to the Clar 2+3 staff and it will attach to BOTH parts by default. You can reassign it if you only need it on one layer. Go ahead and write three or four trumpet parts. That is doable and common (though, as I said, it is more common to mass the section with everyone available). I often use 11x14 for scores. Taller seems to flap a bit on page turns. 11x15 is fine too. > On Aug 7, 2018, at 5:10 PM, David Froom wrote: > > Hi Christopher and Ryan, > > Thank you both for amazingly helpful responses!!! > > This leads two more questions: > > Paper size: > If you are not removing any staves, this is pretty tiny! I printed out a test > page, and even with some of my tricks (thicker staff lines, bigger notehead > size), it seems small. I printed out a first page on 11x15 paper, which is > what my publisher recommends as largest standard (just a bit smaller than > European A3). I know that 12x18, largest my personal printer can handle, is > rather cumbersome on the stand. What paper size do you use and/or what do you > see when others give you band/w.e. scores? > > Massed clarinets: > If I decide to go with massed Bb clarinets (they are typically 5-4-4 on three > different parts), do I use solo/tutti as I would for string sections? How > otherwise would I indicate I really want just one of them at any particular > time? > > And some comments — please let me know if I’m going astray here: > > 1) I am thinking of writing for all trumpets, no cornets. The conductor says > all cornets double trumpet, and my guess is that they all had trumpets as > their main instruments in grad school. That said, I won’t use all 8 of them > (their normal setup is 2-2-2 cornets plus 2 trumpets). I might use, instead, > 3 or 4. I am doing this because I DON’T have experience writing for cornets, > and so don’t have that sound in my head. > > 2) The list I have of available players doesn’t say massed flutes, just picc, > then three flutes with two doubling the first part. I am leaning towards picc > plus just two flutes. > > Thanks again! > > David > >> Christopher Smith wrote: >> >> Hi David, >> >> I conduct a wind ensemble, and arrange for it. >> >> 1. I?ve seen both, but the modern preference is for bassoons to go below the >> low clarinets. >> >> 2. Again, I?ve seen both, but trumpets, horns, trombones is the way I see it >> most often. This is even more universal than the bassoon placement. >> >> 3. The string bass is as you said. It only makes sense to put it at the very >> bottom if there is an actual string section. In this case, it?s a pairing >> with tuba. >> >> I?m glad you have separate cornet and trumpet parts. I prefer that, >> especially with someone who can write for it and players with the correct >> instruments. >> >> The doubled parts are for weight, so as to allow say Clarinet 1 to be heard >> as easily as Trumpet 1. I might be happy with one to a part in the trumpet >> section, but bands that work the way you outlined let the trumpets play >> warmly, so one player doesn?t HAVE to carry the weight by himself. Trumpets >> play much more often in concert band than in orchestra, so they can use the >> endurance help of playing more softly. The clarinets are the workhorses in a >> concert band, so the numbers you say are by no means outrageous. It?s nice >> to allow them to balance the sax section, or the trumpet section, by >> themselves, the same way that strings are massed in an orchestra. >> >> Massed flutes are quite common, too. I?m surprised that a band of that size >> doesn?t have at least six flutes. But they are very often the high octave of >> some other part, so the way you said is not entirely out of line. >> >> Band or ?wind ensemble? doesn?t change the score order, but with ?wind >> ensemble? it may be more common to have suggested weights of sections, as >> you mentioned. Bands generally mass a lot of parts. This goes back to Sousa, >> who more-or-less came up with the woodwind-heavy doubling we see commonly >> today. You can specify ?one only? whenever you want. But I suggest that loud >> passages use everyone available. >> >> I don?t remove empty staves at all, unless it will save me score pages (say, >> for long passages where entire sections rest), so I agree with Gould. As a >> conductor, the placement on the page is an important indicator to me where I >> am pointing my cues, and my expectations. This isn?t
Re: [Finale] Band/wind ensemble questions
Hi Christopher and Ryan, Thank you both for amazingly helpful responses!!! This leads two more questions: Paper size: If you are not removing any staves, this is pretty tiny! I printed out a test page, and even with some of my tricks (thicker staff lines, bigger notehead size), it seems small. I printed out a first page on 11x15 paper, which is what my publisher recommends as largest standard (just a bit smaller than European A3). I know that 12x18, largest my personal printer can handle, is rather cumbersome on the stand. What paper size do you use and/or what do you see when others give you band/w.e. scores? Massed clarinets: If I decide to go with massed Bb clarinets (they are typically 5-4-4 on three different parts), do I use solo/tutti as I would for string sections? How otherwise would I indicate I really want just one of them at any particular time? And some comments — please let me know if I’m going astray here: 1) I am thinking of writing for all trumpets, no cornets. The conductor says all cornets double trumpet, and my guess is that they all had trumpets as their main instruments in grad school. That said, I won’t use all 8 of them (their normal setup is 2-2-2 cornets plus 2 trumpets). I might use, instead, 3 or 4. I am doing this because I DON’T have experience writing for cornets, and so don’t have that sound in my head. 2) The list I have of available players doesn’t say massed flutes, just picc, then three flutes with two doubling the first part. I am leaning towards picc plus just two flutes. Thanks again! David > Christopher Smith wrote: > > Hi David, > > I conduct a wind ensemble, and arrange for it. > > 1. I?ve seen both, but the modern preference is for bassoons to go below the > low clarinets. > > 2. Again, I?ve seen both, but trumpets, horns, trombones is the way I see it > most often. This is even more universal than the bassoon placement. > > 3. The string bass is as you said. It only makes sense to put it at the very > bottom if there is an actual string section. In this case, it?s a pairing > with tuba. > > I?m glad you have separate cornet and trumpet parts. I prefer that, > especially with someone who can write for it and players with the correct > instruments. > > The doubled parts are for weight, so as to allow say Clarinet 1 to be heard > as easily as Trumpet 1. I might be happy with one to a part in the trumpet > section, but bands that work the way you outlined let the trumpets play > warmly, so one player doesn?t HAVE to carry the weight by himself. Trumpets > play much more often in concert band than in orchestra, so they can use the > endurance help of playing more softly. The clarinets are the workhorses in a > concert band, so the numbers you say are by no means outrageous. It?s nice to > allow them to balance the sax section, or the trumpet section, by themselves, > the same way that strings are massed in an orchestra. > > Massed flutes are quite common, too. I?m surprised that a band of that size > doesn?t have at least six flutes. But they are very often the high octave of > some other part, so the way you said is not entirely out of line. > > Band or ?wind ensemble? doesn?t change the score order, but with ?wind > ensemble? it may be more common to have suggested weights of sections, as you > mentioned. Bands generally mass a lot of parts. This goes back to Sousa, who > more-or-less came up with the woodwind-heavy doubling we see commonly today. > You can specify ?one only? whenever you want. But I suggest that loud > passages use everyone available. > > I don?t remove empty staves at all, unless it will save me score pages (say, > for long passages where entire sections rest), so I agree with Gould. As a > conductor, the placement on the page is an important indicator to me where I > am pointing my cues, and my expectations. This isn?t Beethoven?s 5th, that > everyone and his brother can conduct from memory, and is published in masses > that need to save paper. Your piece is a new and presumably more complex > piece that needs all the help you can muster, and not that much paper. > > Hope this helps. > > Christopher > > > Ryan Beard wrote: > > 1) It?s pretty much evenly split. I prefer Bassoons below clarinets, but > others prefer them below oboes. If your bassoons only play with the oboes > creating a double reed mini ensemble, then you might want bassoons below. If > you bassoon parts are pretty independent from oboes, but mostly double the > bass clarinet and bari sax, then you might want to put them below clarinets > and above saxes. > > 2) Trumpets above horns in band scores. (Though there certainly are > exceptions in the standard literature). And cornets above trumpets (though > again, there are exceptions). > > 3) Yes, Double Bass below Tuba and above Timp/Percussion. > > You didn?t ask, but some people are sticklers to putting mallet percussion at > the very bottom,
Re: [Finale] MID-MEASURE CLEF
How many measures do you want it for? You must define that in the clef box. > On 7 Aug 2018, at 15:01, S Jones wrote: > > That is correct. Only mid measure clefs will have a handle. Once you drag > it too close to the beginning/end of a measure it will jump into place > permanently and lose the handle. > > On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 10:45 AM dr.a.s. weinstangel > wrote: > >> Thank you! That does it. >> >> So, now there is the treble clef were it needs to be. And Finale adds bass >> clefs in front and behind it. The one behind it comes with a handle, and >> can be removed and one in front can not. Clearly, something is totally >> messed up with the Clef Tool. >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Aug 6, 2018, at 8:06 PM, Jón Kristinn Cortez >> wrote: >>> >>> SELECTION TOOL: select the part of measure where you want the clef >>> CLEF TOOL: double-click in the seleted part of measure and choose the >> clef >>> >>> Cortez >>> >>> >>> On 6 Aug 2018, at 19:16, dr.a.s. weinstangel wrote: Fin2012c Win10 Whichever method I use to place a new clef, it appears without a >> handle; therefore, it can not be placed in the middle of a measure. Any ideas, please? Dr.A.S.Weinstangel sasha.weinstan...@utoronto.ca cel.647-292-4605 ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> Finale mailing list >>> Finale@shsu.edu >>> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >>> >>> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: >>> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu >> >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >> >> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: >> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu > > -- > Sent from Gmail Mobile > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] MID-MEASURE CLEF
That is correct. Only mid measure clefs will have a handle. Once you drag it too close to the beginning/end of a measure it will jump into place permanently and lose the handle. On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 10:45 AM dr.a.s. weinstangel wrote: > Thank you! That does it. > > So, now there is the treble clef were it needs to be. And Finale adds bass > clefs in front and behind it. The one behind it comes with a handle, and > can be removed and one in front can not. Clearly, something is totally > messed up with the Clef Tool. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Aug 6, 2018, at 8:06 PM, Jón Kristinn Cortez > wrote: > > > > SELECTION TOOL: select the part of measure where you want the clef > > CLEF TOOL: double-click in the seleted part of measure and choose the > clef > > > > Cortez > > > > > > > >> On 6 Aug 2018, at 19:16, dr.a.s. weinstangel wrote: > >> > >> Fin2012c Win10 > >> > >> > >> Whichever method I use to place a new clef, it appears without a > handle; therefore, it can not be placed in the middle of a measure. > >> > >> > >> Any ideas, please? > >> > >> > >> Dr.A.S.Weinstangel > >> > >> sasha.weinstan...@utoronto.ca > >> cel.647-292-4605 > >> ___ > >> Finale mailing list > >> Finale@shsu.edu > >> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > >> > >> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > >> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu > > > > > > ___ > > Finale mailing list > > Finale@shsu.edu > > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu -- Sent from Gmail Mobile ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] MID-MEASURE CLEF
Thank you! That does it. So, now there is the treble clef were it needs to be. And Finale adds bass clefs in front and behind it. The one behind it comes with a handle, and can be removed and one in front can not. Clearly, something is totally messed up with the Clef Tool. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 6, 2018, at 8:06 PM, Jón Kristinn Cortez wrote: > > SELECTION TOOL: select the part of measure where you want the clef > CLEF TOOL: double-click in the seleted part of measure and choose the clef > > Cortez > > > >> On 6 Aug 2018, at 19:16, dr.a.s. weinstangel wrote: >> >> Fin2012c Win10 >> >> >> Whichever method I use to place a new clef, it appears without a handle; >> therefore, it can not be placed in the middle of a measure. >> >> >> Any ideas, please? >> >> >> Dr.A.S.Weinstangel >> >> sasha.weinstan...@utoronto.ca >> cel.647-292-4605 >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >> >> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: >> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
