Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-31 Thread Robert Patterson
After a software product becomes mature, control passes from engineers to
managers and marketers. This happens to every software I've ever worked
with, including my own. It will happen to Dorico too, eventually.

Yeah, the dongle is a deal breaker for me.

On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 4:37 PM Eric Dannewitz 
wrote:

> Yes, I would agree too. TGTools and other plugins make Finale perfectly
> fine for doing music.
>
> And it doesn’t require some stupid dongle to run on multiple computer.
>
>
> > On Jan 31, 2019, at 1:37 PM, Robert Patterson <
> rob...@robertgpatterson.com> wrote:
> >
> > It seems as though the point of my plugin post is being lost. The point
> was
> > that with 3rd-party plugins you can design a work flow in Finale that is
> > highly efficient. That Dorico can achieve comparable efficiency out of
> the
> > box is to its credit, but my point is that it is quite possible to
> achieve
> > a similar level of efficiency with Finale. Doing so requires thought,
> > planning and, above all, 3rd-party plugins.
> >
> > What you absolutely *can't* do in Finale is multi-turn slurs like Dorico
> > apparently has. And that is one (among many) failures of Coda
> > Music/MakeMusic to show leadership. They could have implemented
> multi-turn
> > slurs 15 years ago and been an industry first mover. I know because I
> > suggested it then and at regular intervals since. This is but one
> example.
> >
> > Nevertheless I would also dispute that the current dev staff at Makemusic
> > lacks commitment or talent. On the contrary, my dealings with them
> reveal a
> > talented staff that knows the code base and is committed to improving it.
> > If there are leadership problems at Makemusic, they are higher up than
> the
> > developer staff I deal with.
>
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Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-31 Thread Eric Dannewitz
Yes, I would agree too. TGTools and other plugins make Finale perfectly fine 
for doing music.

And it doesn’t require some stupid dongle to run on multiple computer.


> On Jan 31, 2019, at 1:37 PM, Robert Patterson  
> wrote:
> 
> It seems as though the point of my plugin post is being lost. The point was
> that with 3rd-party plugins you can design a work flow in Finale that is
> highly efficient. That Dorico can achieve comparable efficiency out of the
> box is to its credit, but my point is that it is quite possible to achieve
> a similar level of efficiency with Finale. Doing so requires thought,
> planning and, above all, 3rd-party plugins.
> 
> What you absolutely *can't* do in Finale is multi-turn slurs like Dorico
> apparently has. And that is one (among many) failures of Coda
> Music/MakeMusic to show leadership. They could have implemented multi-turn
> slurs 15 years ago and been an industry first mover. I know because I
> suggested it then and at regular intervals since. This is but one example.
> 
> Nevertheless I would also dispute that the current dev staff at Makemusic
> lacks commitment or talent. On the contrary, my dealings with them reveal a
> talented staff that knows the code base and is committed to improving it.
> If there are leadership problems at Makemusic, they are higher up than the
> developer staff I deal with.

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Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-31 Thread David H. Bailey

On 1/31/2019 4:37 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:
[snip]> Nevertheless I would also dispute that the current dev staff at 
Makemusic

lacks commitment or talent. On the contrary, my dealings with them reveal a
talented staff that knows the code base and is committed to improving it.
If there are leadership problems at Makemusic, they are higher up than the
developer staff I deal with.


[snip]
I have never doubted the ability or the dedication of the development 
staff that has worked on Finale over the years.  I have huge doubts 
about the commitment to innovation and improvement on the parts of the 
higher-ups at each of the corporate layovers that Finale has had to 
endure over the years.


But I have always had great respect for the developers themselves -- 
however they can only do what the management will allow them to do, and 
therein lies the problem with Finale dropping from market leader to 
market follower.


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Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-31 Thread Dennis Bathory-Kitsz
On Thu, January 31, 2019 4:37 pm, Robert Patterson wrote:
> What you absolutely *can't* do in Finale is multi-turn slurs like Dorico
> apparently has.

Oh, I so want these still. The gateway to flat slurs.

Dennis


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Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-31 Thread Robert Patterson
It seems as though the point of my plugin post is being lost. The point was
that with 3rd-party plugins you can design a work flow in Finale that is
highly efficient. That Dorico can achieve comparable efficiency out of the
box is to its credit, but my point is that it is quite possible to achieve
a similar level of efficiency with Finale. Doing so requires thought,
planning and, above all, 3rd-party plugins.

What you absolutely *can't* do in Finale is multi-turn slurs like Dorico
apparently has. And that is one (among many) failures of Coda
Music/MakeMusic to show leadership. They could have implemented multi-turn
slurs 15 years ago and been an industry first mover. I know because I
suggested it then and at regular intervals since. This is but one example.

Nevertheless I would also dispute that the current dev staff at Makemusic
lacks commitment or talent. On the contrary, my dealings with them reveal a
talented staff that knows the code base and is committed to improving it.
If there are leadership problems at Makemusic, they are higher up than the
developer staff I deal with.


On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 10:12 AM Steve Parker  wrote:

> Here are my most used plugins (JW and Patterson):
>
> Copy Part Layout - native in Dorico
> Instrument Change - native in Dorico
> Kitchen Department - native in Dorico
> Start New Piece - native in Dorico
> Yada Yada Tremelo - easily achieved and customised in Dorico
> Settings Scrapbook - I only used this to overcome a terrible old bug, not
> needed in Dorico
>
> Percussion goes way beyond any other software in that you can have, for
> example, a kit in the score but split to separate staves in the parts. You
> can easily move an instrument with its music to another player.
> Using Dorico’s ‘flows’, you can have multiple new pieces with
> automatically shown and completely formatable and customisable title/header
> info, set per layout to start on a new page or to flow on from the previous
> page - with different automatic titling options for each.
>
> As to the relevance of this discussion, this is not a MakeMusic owned
> group. Most of us (I’m sure) have to be able to at least work in Finale and
> Sibelius. I sometimes have to prepare scores in Cubase, Logic and DP.
> Comparing software across platforms is a very useful thing, especially
> Jari’s and Robert’s plugins - without which Finale would be a horror. If
> MakeMusic have any sense they will be playing with Dorico to see where they
> need to go.
>
> Steve P.
>
> > On 31 Jan 2019, at 13:42, David H. Bailey 
> wrote:
> >
> > Craig makes some very important points.  Added to the fact that Finale
> is basically frozen in time is it's horrible corporate history, having been
> sold from company to company because nobody has any idea what to do with
> it.  There is a very real fear that someday whichever company owns Finale
> at that point might try to sell it, find no buyers and then just let it die
> forever, leaving all Finale users high and dry and in need of other
> notation software to move to.
> >
> > One additional point I would make is that like all human discussion
> groups, the discussion moves in whatever direction those who are doing the
> discussing move it.  If someone wants to get it back more focused on
> Finale, then it's important that they raise a question or make a statement
> for others to discuss.
> >
> > This group is not lead by designated discussion leaders -- we're all
> responsible for the discussions.
> >
> > So ask a finale related question and see where the discussion goes.
> >
> > David H. Bailey
> >
> >
> >
> > On 1/31/2019 8:35 AM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:
> >> If Finale were doing any significant developments to their product I'm
> sure we would be happy to talk about that.  It is the fact that Finale is
> basically frozen in time that causes people to think about what other
> options are available and practical.
> >> In the case of this thread, the main question seems to be how difficult
> it would be to make a move to Dorico if a person uses the various FInale
> plug-ins very heavily. If this doesn't interest you, that's OK, but it
> seems to be a rather important question for those who depend on the
> plug-ins.
> >> Those Finale plug-ins don't always have a direct counterpart in Dorico.
> That's why it is necessary to talk in some depth about how Dorico operates.
> >> On 1/31/2019 3:14 AM, Paolo Alberto Rismondo wrote:
> >>> Hi all,
> >>>
> >>> It seems to me that this is 'Finale mailing list', not '... mailing
> list'.
> >>>
> >>> Thank you in advance for your kind attention,
> >>>
> >>> all best,
> >>>
> >>> Paolo A. Rismondo
> >> ---
> >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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> >
> 

Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-31 Thread Steve Parker
Here are my most used plugins (JW and Patterson):

Copy Part Layout - native in Dorico
Instrument Change - native in Dorico
Kitchen Department - native in Dorico
Start New Piece - native in Dorico
Yada Yada Tremelo - easily achieved and customised in Dorico
Settings Scrapbook - I only used this to overcome a terrible old bug, not 
needed in Dorico

Percussion goes way beyond any other software in that you can have, for 
example, a kit in the score but split to separate staves in the parts. You can 
easily move an instrument with its music to another player.
Using Dorico’s ‘flows’, you can have multiple new pieces with automatically 
shown and completely formatable and customisable title/header info, set per 
layout to start on a new page or to flow on from the previous page - with 
different automatic titling options for each.

As to the relevance of this discussion, this is not a MakeMusic owned group. 
Most of us (I’m sure) have to be able to at least work in Finale and Sibelius. 
I sometimes have to prepare scores in Cubase, Logic and DP. Comparing software 
across platforms is a very useful thing, especially Jari’s and Robert’s plugins 
- without which Finale would be a horror. If MakeMusic have any sense they will 
be playing with Dorico to see where they need to go.

Steve P.

> On 31 Jan 2019, at 13:42, David H. Bailey  wrote:
> 
> Craig makes some very important points.  Added to the fact that Finale is 
> basically frozen in time is it's horrible corporate history, having been sold 
> from company to company because nobody has any idea what to do with it.  
> There is a very real fear that someday whichever company owns Finale at that 
> point might try to sell it, find no buyers and then just let it die forever, 
> leaving all Finale users high and dry and in need of other notation software 
> to move to.
> 
> One additional point I would make is that like all human discussion groups, 
> the discussion moves in whatever direction those who are doing the discussing 
> move it.  If someone wants to get it back more focused on Finale, then it's 
> important that they raise a question or make a statement for others to 
> discuss.
> 
> This group is not lead by designated discussion leaders -- we're all 
> responsible for the discussions.
> 
> So ask a finale related question and see where the discussion goes.
> 
> David H. Bailey
> 
> 
> 
> On 1/31/2019 8:35 AM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:
>> If Finale were doing any significant developments to their product I'm sure 
>> we would be happy to talk about that.  It is the fact that Finale is 
>> basically frozen in time that causes people to think about what other 
>> options are available and practical.
>> In the case of this thread, the main question seems to be how difficult it 
>> would be to make a move to Dorico if a person uses the various FInale 
>> plug-ins very heavily. If this doesn't interest you, that's OK, but it seems 
>> to be a rather important question for those who depend on the plug-ins.
>> Those Finale plug-ins don't always have a direct counterpart in Dorico. 
>> That's why it is necessary to talk in some depth about how Dorico operates.
>> On 1/31/2019 3:14 AM, Paolo Alberto Rismondo wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> It seems to me that this is 'Finale mailing list', not '... mailing list'.
>>> 
>>> Thank you in advance for your kind attention,
>>> 
>>> all best,
>>> 
>>> Paolo A. Rismondo
>> ---
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>> ___
>> Finale mailing list
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>> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
>> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> 
> 
> -- 
> *
> David H. Bailey
> dhbaile...@comcast.net
> http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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> 
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Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-31 Thread David H. Bailey
Craig makes some very important points.  Added to the fact that Finale 
is basically frozen in time is it's horrible corporate history, having 
been sold from company to company because nobody has any idea what to do 
with it.  There is a very real fear that someday whichever company owns 
Finale at that point might try to sell it, find no buyers and then just 
let it die forever, leaving all Finale users high and dry and in need of 
other notation software to move to.


One additional point I would make is that like all human discussion 
groups, the discussion moves in whatever direction those who are doing 
the discussing move it.  If someone wants to get it back more focused on 
Finale, then it's important that they raise a question or make a 
statement for others to discuss.


This group is not lead by designated discussion leaders -- we're all 
responsible for the discussions.


So ask a finale related question and see where the discussion goes.

David H. Bailey



On 1/31/2019 8:35 AM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:
If Finale were doing any significant developments to their product I'm 
sure we would be happy to talk about that.  It is the fact that Finale 
is basically frozen in time that causes people to think about what other 
options are available and practical.


In the case of this thread, the main question seems to be how difficult 
it would be to make a move to Dorico if a person uses the various FInale 
plug-ins very heavily. If this doesn't interest you, that's OK, but it 
seems to be a rather important question for those who depend on the 
plug-ins.


Those Finale plug-ins don't always have a direct counterpart in Dorico. 
That's why it is necessary to talk in some depth about how Dorico operates.




On 1/31/2019 3:14 AM, Paolo Alberto Rismondo wrote:

Hi all,

It seems to me that this is 'Finale mailing list', not '... mailing 
list'.


Thank you in advance for your kind attention,

all best,

Paolo A. Rismondo



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Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-31 Thread Craig Parmerlee
If Finale were doing any significant developments to their product I'm 
sure we would be happy to talk about that.  It is the fact that Finale 
is basically frozen in time that causes people to think about what other 
options are available and practical.


In the case of this thread, the main question seems to be how difficult 
it would be to make a move to Dorico if a person uses the various FInale 
plug-ins very heavily. If this doesn't interest you, that's OK, but it 
seems to be a rather important question for those who depend on the 
plug-ins.


Those Finale plug-ins don't always have a direct counterpart in Dorico.  
That's why it is necessary to talk in some depth about how Dorico operates.




On 1/31/2019 3:14 AM, Paolo Alberto Rismondo wrote:

Hi all,

It seems to me that this is 'Finale mailing list', not '... mailing 
list'.


Thank you in advance for your kind attention,

all best,

Paolo A. Rismondo



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Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-31 Thread Paolo Alberto Rismondo

Hi all,

It seems to me that this is 'Finale mailing list', not '... mailing list'.

Thank you in advance for your kind attention,

all best,

Paolo A. Rismondo

Il 30/01/2019 21:04, Craig Parmerlee ha scritto:
Just to add a tidbit or two, there is currently no way in Dorico to 
have 2 parts share a staff in the score and still have them go to 
separate parts.  As Steve says, it is actually pretty easy to write 
two separate parts, then add a third player. Select all the music from 
the two separate parts and Paste Special -> Implode into that third 
player.  And then include only that third player in the score layout.  
But of course, any subsequent changes will not be synchronized.


I believe what Dorico is working on is a framework where you can tell 
the score layout to automatically combine certain players -- in other 
words, automating the process I described above, and automatically 
keeping things in sync.  This would be philosophically opposite the 
Finale approach.  In Finale, you write both players into a single 
staff and then tell Finale how to split that into two parts for printing.


My guess is that this will be in the next major (paid) release of 
Dorico, but I really have no way of knowing.  That's just a guess.  As 
you can imagine, there could be quite a lot of complication to this 
process.  The Steinberg team does a pretty good job of handling most 
of the complications by default and giving you tools to address the 
cases where the default behavior is not good enough.



On 1/28/2019 8:57 AM, Steve Parker wrote:

Hi Christoper,

This is something that is promised.
On 28 Jan 2019, at 13:45, Christopher Smith 
 wrote:


... Are you saying that Dorico handles two instruments per score 
staff, but with individual parts separated, including cues and 
solos, very well?



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Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-30 Thread Craig Parmerlee
Just to add a tidbit or two, there is currently no way in Dorico to have 
2 parts share a staff in the score and still have them go to separate 
parts.  As Steve says, it is actually pretty easy to write two separate 
parts, then add a third player. Select all the music from the two 
separate parts and Paste Special -> Implode into that third player.  And 
then include only that third player in the score layout.  But of course, 
any subsequent changes will not be synchronized.


I believe what Dorico is working on is a framework where you can tell 
the score layout to automatically combine certain players -- in other 
words, automating the process I described above, and automatically 
keeping things in sync.  This would be philosophically opposite the 
Finale approach.  In Finale, you write both players into a single staff 
and then tell Finale how to split that into two parts for printing.


My guess is that this will be in the next major (paid) release of 
Dorico, but I really have no way of knowing.  That's just a guess.  As 
you can imagine, there could be quite a lot of complication to this 
process.  The Steinberg team does a pretty good job of handling most of 
the complications by default and giving you tools to address the cases 
where the default behavior is not good enough.



On 1/28/2019 8:57 AM, Steve Parker wrote:

Hi Christoper,

This is something that is promised.

On 28 Jan 2019, at 13:45, Christopher Smith  
wrote:

... Are you saying that Dorico handles two instruments per score staff, but 
with individual parts separated, including cues and solos, very well?



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Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-28 Thread Craig Parmerlee
Everything I have has been edited at least a little.  Maybe a good 
demonstration would be for somebody to send me a MusicXML file.  I'll 
import it into Dorico and post the score and parts with no editing.





On 1/28/2019 10:13 AM, Thomas Schaller wrote:

Craig, would you consider posting PDFs of a score and a part page and show us 
what Dorico produces without having tweaked much?
Personally I’m more interested to see an orchestra piece.

Thanks,
Thomas Schaller


On Jan 27, 2019, at 8:08 PM, Craig Parmerlee  wrote:

Yes, it is a big learning curve.  I never really learned Sibelius, and I 
haven't learned MuseScore, so I can't really compare the size of the learning 
curve.  My guess is the Dorico learning curve is more difficult for advanced 
Finale users of long standing:

1) Because Dorico is considerably more sophisticated than either Sibelius or 
MuseScore.
2) Because Dorico uses a fundamentally different architecture (notes are abstracted away 
from the music "canvas" and many operations are driven by a very large set of 
rules.
3) Because of Dorico's rapid development, the documentation simply has not kept 
pace.

I have found it necessary to compile my own personal user guide so that I can 
quickly find my way back to the pertinent options, settings and procedures I 
rely on.  I do this for most software products just to help me learn them.  But 
in the case of Dorico, I still find myself referring to this document every 
single session, and I usually add something to the document every day I use the 
program.  It is now 30 pages long, and that is mostly my own shorthand.  My 
table of contents has about 50 topics.

My point is that this really is a major learning commitment, and many Finale 
users will find they are happier staying with what they know and what is 
working for them.   Nothing at all wrong with that.


On 1/26/2019 6:56 PM, David H. Bailey wrote:

Craig,

Thank you for sharing these thoughts.  You have made much more progress with 
Dorico than I have made, so I didn't feel qualified to respond. But I'm glad 
you were able to make the comparisons.

I know that becoming better acquainted with Dorico is in my imminent future, 
but most of the projects I've been working on lately have had short timetables 
so learning a new software hasn't been possible.

soon . . .

Thanks,
David


On 1/26/2019 5:01 PM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:

Here are some observations about each of the plug-in examples.  Let me 
stipulate that the Finale plug-ins might provide some unusual visual results 
that aren't directly matched by Dorico, so I am not claiming equivalence on any 
of these.

1. Copy arbitrary material regardless of barlines, etc.  This is inherent in Dorico, and 
I think you would find this far more productive in Dorico.  Dorico does not provide any 
drag-and-drop, but the cut and paste model is extremely powerful.  It even allows 
1-to-many pasting, and pasting to discontinuous staffs and so on.  Also there is a very 
powerful capability where you can select any material, press "R" and it 
automatically duplicates the material placing it immediately to the right of the 
selection, which still expressing everything correctly with no touch-up required.

2. Mass relink.  This is inherent in Dorico.  Moreover, Dorico seems to make 
better assumptions about when to automatically reflect score changes in parts 
and vice versa.

3. Autocreate MM rests.  This is always automatic.  You never "create" any MM 
rests.  It is inherent. There are some options for visual appearance.

4. Multiple sets of not spacings.  I am not aware of anything line this in 
Dorico.  Of course you can edit the parts directly to apply any spacing you 
need.

5. Designate certain text as titles. There is only "text" and "system text" in Dorico.  There is no 
hierarchy of text objects, such as an outline mode in a word processor.  However, you have a great deal of control over 
the formatting of any text object and you can freely copy and reuse any of your text items.  So if you have a text 
object formatted as a "title", you can copy that anywhere else you need a similar title to appear.  Moreover, 
Dorico has a higher level of abstraction for these situations. Your file can consist of multiple "flows", 
which are like movements. And each flow can have a title, with options how and when to display those titles.

6. Mass align hairpins.  There is no mass alignment, but if you have a 4-bar passage, you can 
enter the dynamic as "F" and Dorico will enter that dynamic as a group 
that is all aligned.  And if you copy that group to other staves, they will be aligned (taking 
in to account the collisions).  So if you enter it properly, you never need to go back and fix 
it.  Dorico moves the groups around (maintaining the alignment) as needed even if the music 
changes to create a new collision.

7. Various fixes.  Most of these situations just don't happen in Dorico.  And 
you have complete control over the rhythmic position 

Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-28 Thread Thomas Schaller
Craig, would you consider posting PDFs of a score and a part page and show us 
what Dorico produces without having tweaked much?
Personally I’m more interested to see an orchestra piece.

Thanks,
Thomas Schaller

> On Jan 27, 2019, at 8:08 PM, Craig Parmerlee  wrote:
> 
> Yes, it is a big learning curve.  I never really learned Sibelius, and I 
> haven't learned MuseScore, so I can't really compare the size of the learning 
> curve.  My guess is the Dorico learning curve is more difficult for advanced 
> Finale users of long standing:
> 
> 1) Because Dorico is considerably more sophisticated than either Sibelius or 
> MuseScore.
> 2) Because Dorico uses a fundamentally different architecture (notes are 
> abstracted away from the music "canvas" and many operations are driven by a 
> very large set of rules.
> 3) Because of Dorico's rapid development, the documentation simply has not 
> kept pace.
> 
> I have found it necessary to compile my own personal user guide so that I can 
> quickly find my way back to the pertinent options, settings and procedures I 
> rely on.  I do this for most software products just to help me learn them.  
> But in the case of Dorico, I still find myself referring to this document 
> every single session, and I usually add something to the document every day I 
> use the program.  It is now 30 pages long, and that is mostly my own 
> shorthand.  My table of contents has about 50 topics.
> 
> My point is that this really is a major learning commitment, and many Finale 
> users will find they are happier staying with what they know and what is 
> working for them.   Nothing at all wrong with that.
> 
> 
> On 1/26/2019 6:56 PM, David H. Bailey wrote:
>> Craig,
>> 
>> Thank you for sharing these thoughts.  You have made much more progress with 
>> Dorico than I have made, so I didn't feel qualified to respond. But I'm glad 
>> you were able to make the comparisons.
>> 
>> I know that becoming better acquainted with Dorico is in my imminent future, 
>> but most of the projects I've been working on lately have had short 
>> timetables so learning a new software hasn't been possible.
>> 
>> soon . . .
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> David
>> 
>> 
>> On 1/26/2019 5:01 PM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:
>>> Here are some observations about each of the plug-in examples.  Let me 
>>> stipulate that the Finale plug-ins might provide some unusual visual 
>>> results that aren't directly matched by Dorico, so I am not claiming 
>>> equivalence on any of these.
>>> 
>>> 1. Copy arbitrary material regardless of barlines, etc.  This is inherent 
>>> in Dorico, and I think you would find this far more productive in Dorico.  
>>> Dorico does not provide any drag-and-drop, but the cut and paste model is 
>>> extremely powerful.  It even allows 1-to-many pasting, and pasting to 
>>> discontinuous staffs and so on.  Also there is a very powerful capability 
>>> where you can select any material, press "R" and it automatically 
>>> duplicates the material placing it immediately to the right of the 
>>> selection, which still expressing everything correctly with no touch-up 
>>> required.
>>> 
>>> 2. Mass relink.  This is inherent in Dorico.  Moreover, Dorico seems to 
>>> make better assumptions about when to automatically reflect score changes 
>>> in parts and vice versa.
>>> 
>>> 3. Autocreate MM rests.  This is always automatic.  You never "create" any 
>>> MM rests.  It is inherent. There are some options for visual appearance.
>>> 
>>> 4. Multiple sets of not spacings.  I am not aware of anything line this in 
>>> Dorico.  Of course you can edit the parts directly to apply any spacing you 
>>> need.
>>> 
>>> 5. Designate certain text as titles. There is only "text" and "system text" 
>>> in Dorico.  There is no hierarchy of text objects, such as an outline mode 
>>> in a word processor.  However, you have a great deal of control over the 
>>> formatting of any text object and you can freely copy and reuse any of your 
>>> text items.  So if you have a text object formatted as a "title", you can 
>>> copy that anywhere else you need a similar title to appear.  Moreover, 
>>> Dorico has a higher level of abstraction for these situations. Your file 
>>> can consist of multiple "flows", which are like movements. And each flow 
>>> can have a title, with options how and when to display those titles.
>>> 
>>> 6. Mass align hairpins.  There is no mass alignment, but if you have a 
>>> 4-bar passage, you can enter the dynamic as "F" and Dorico will 
>>> enter that dynamic as a group that is all aligned.  And if you copy that 
>>> group to other staves, they will be aligned (taking in to account the 
>>> collisions).  So if you enter it properly, you never need to go back and 
>>> fix it.  Dorico moves the groups around (maintaining the alignment) as 
>>> needed even if the music changes to create a new collision.
>>> 
>>> 7. Various fixes.  Most of these situations just don't happen in Dorico.  
>>> And you have 

Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-28 Thread Steve Parker
Hi Christoper,

This is something that is promised. You can easily set divisi passages with 
extra staves. As far as cuing goes, you select something in the part and choose 
from a list of which instrument(s) you want cued. 

As it stands now, I still find combining instruments into a staff to be easier 
than in Finale, because it is so easy to have three staves (combined, I and II) 
and allocate these to different layouts.

Steve P.

> On 28 Jan 2019, at 13:45, Christopher Smith  
> wrote:
> 
> Steve,
> 
> Thanks for the info. Are you saying that Dorico handles two instruments per 
> score staff, but with individual parts separated, including cues and solos, 
> very well? (I find this is a weakness in Finale).
> 
> Christopher
> 
> 
>> On Jan 28, 2019, at 8:31 AM, Steve Parker  wrote:
>> 
>> I’m now using Dorico for all new projects. Dorico’s ability to have distinct 
>> pieces in one file (‘flows’) that can be reordered saves so much time. For 
>> each layout, these can be set to continue on the same page or to start a new 
>> page, both with header information. Dorico handles cue superbly. The lengths 
>> of these can be dragged to extend or reduce, all correctly labelled. Dorico 
>> handles doubling players well, with automatic labelling. Dorico is also 
>> strong for percussion writing. You can easily switch from a combined set to 
>> individual instruments, because the underlying music representation is 
>> distinct from the form of it on the page.
>> 
>> Dorico has some annoyances. IMO more engraving decisions should 
>> auto-propagate to parts. This is easily dealt with, but can catch you out. 
>> Sometimes cutting ties is the quickest method to enter dynamics etc. This 
>> ‘reversing’ always feels uncomfortable. Undo/redo includes every selection 
>> and click that you make. I hate this, but it does make me careful to think 
>> things through rather than to do and undo. Dorico jumps around more than I 
>> understand to focus the screen on something I don’t want to see (or worse I 
>> don’t immediately know where I am). Conversely, I can’t reliably find a way 
>> to link focus between score and parts.
>> 
>> My biggest hassle in Dorico is its inability to set bars-per-system over a 
>> specified range of bars. You can do this one system at a time, but it’s 
>> annoying that something so simple in Finale takes longer in Dorico. However, 
>> Dorico’s first guess at system layout is far better than Finale’s.
>> 
>> On the whole, Dorico’s downsides lose me minutes, but its upsides gain me 
>> days.
>> 
>> Steve Parker
>> ___
>> Finale mailing list
>> Finale@shsu.edu
>> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>> 
>> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
>> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> 
> 
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> 
> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu


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Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-28 Thread Christopher Smith
Steve,

Thanks for the info. Are you saying that Dorico handles two instruments per 
score staff, but with individual parts separated, including cues and solos, 
very well? (I find this is a weakness in Finale).

Christopher


> On Jan 28, 2019, at 8:31 AM, Steve Parker  wrote:
> 
> I’m now using Dorico for all new projects. Dorico’s ability to have distinct 
> pieces in one file (‘flows’) that can be reordered saves so much time. For 
> each layout, these can be set to continue on the same page or to start a new 
> page, both with header information. Dorico handles cue superbly. The lengths 
> of these can be dragged to extend or reduce, all correctly labelled. Dorico 
> handles doubling players well, with automatic labelling. Dorico is also 
> strong for percussion writing. You can easily switch from a combined set to 
> individual instruments, because the underlying music representation is 
> distinct from the form of it on the page.
> 
> Dorico has some annoyances. IMO more engraving decisions should 
> auto-propagate to parts. This is easily dealt with, but can catch you out. 
> Sometimes cutting ties is the quickest method to enter dynamics etc. This 
> ‘reversing’ always feels uncomfortable. Undo/redo includes every selection 
> and click that you make. I hate this, but it does make me careful to think 
> things through rather than to do and undo. Dorico jumps around more than I 
> understand to focus the screen on something I don’t want to see (or worse I 
> don’t immediately know where I am). Conversely, I can’t reliably find a way 
> to link focus between score and parts.
> 
> My biggest hassle in Dorico is its inability to set bars-per-system over a 
> specified range of bars. You can do this one system at a time, but it’s 
> annoying that something so simple in Finale takes longer in Dorico. However, 
> Dorico’s first guess at system layout is far better than Finale’s.
> 
> On the whole, Dorico’s downsides lose me minutes, but its upsides gain me 
> days.
> 
> Steve Parker
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> 
> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu


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Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-28 Thread Steve Parker
I’m now using Dorico for all new projects. Dorico’s ability to have distinct 
pieces in one file (‘flows’) that can be reordered saves so much time. For each 
layout, these can be set to continue on the same page or to start a new page, 
both with header information. Dorico handles cue superbly. The lengths of these 
can be dragged to extend or reduce, all correctly labelled. Dorico handles 
doubling players well, with automatic labelling. Dorico is also strong for 
percussion writing. You can easily switch from a combined set to individual 
instruments, because the underlying music representation is distinct from the 
form of it on the page.

Dorico has some annoyances. IMO more engraving decisions should auto-propagate 
to parts. This is easily dealt with, but can catch you out. Sometimes cutting 
ties is the quickest method to enter dynamics etc. This ‘reversing’ always 
feels uncomfortable. Undo/redo includes every selection and click that you 
make. I hate this, but it does make me careful to think things through rather 
than to do and undo. Dorico jumps around more than I understand to focus the 
screen on something I don’t want to see (or worse I don’t immediately know 
where I am). Conversely, I can’t reliably find a way to link focus between 
score and parts.

My biggest hassle in Dorico is its inability to set bars-per-system over a 
specified range of bars. You can do this one system at a time, but it’s 
annoying that something so simple in Finale takes longer in Dorico. However, 
Dorico’s first guess at system layout is far better than Finale’s.

On the whole, Dorico’s downsides lose me minutes, but its upsides gain me days.

Steve Parker
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Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-27 Thread Craig Parmerlee
Yes, it is a big learning curve.  I never really learned Sibelius, and I 
haven't learned MuseScore, so I can't really compare the size of the 
learning curve.  My guess is the Dorico learning curve is more difficult 
for advanced Finale users of long standing:


1) Because Dorico is considerably more sophisticated than either 
Sibelius or MuseScore.
2) Because Dorico uses a fundamentally different architecture (notes are 
abstracted away from the music "canvas" and many operations are driven 
by a very large set of rules.
3) Because of Dorico's rapid development, the documentation simply has 
not kept pace.


I have found it necessary to compile my own personal user guide so that 
I can quickly find my way back to the pertinent options, settings and 
procedures I rely on.  I do this for most software products just to help 
me learn them.  But in the case of Dorico, I still find myself referring 
to this document every single session, and I usually add something to 
the document every day I use the program.  It is now 30 pages long, and 
that is mostly my own shorthand.  My table of contents has about 50 topics.


My point is that this really is a major learning commitment, and many 
Finale users will find they are happier staying with what they know and 
what is working for them.   Nothing at all wrong with that.



On 1/26/2019 6:56 PM, David H. Bailey wrote:

Craig,

Thank you for sharing these thoughts.  You have made much more 
progress with Dorico than I have made, so I didn't feel qualified to 
respond. But I'm glad you were able to make the comparisons.


I know that becoming better acquainted with Dorico is in my imminent 
future, but most of the projects I've been working on lately have had 
short timetables so learning a new software hasn't been possible.


soon . . .

Thanks,
David


On 1/26/2019 5:01 PM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:
Here are some observations about each of the plug-in examples.  Let 
me stipulate that the Finale plug-ins might provide some unusual 
visual results that aren't directly matched by Dorico, so I am not 
claiming equivalence on any of these.


1. Copy arbitrary material regardless of barlines, etc.  This is 
inherent in Dorico, and I think you would find this far more 
productive in Dorico.  Dorico does not provide any drag-and-drop, but 
the cut and paste model is extremely powerful.  It even allows 
1-to-many pasting, and pasting to discontinuous staffs and so on.  
Also there is a very powerful capability where you can select any 
material, press "R" and it automatically duplicates the material 
placing it immediately to the right of the selection, which still 
expressing everything correctly with no touch-up required.


2. Mass relink.  This is inherent in Dorico.  Moreover, Dorico seems 
to make better assumptions about when to automatically reflect score 
changes in parts and vice versa.


3. Autocreate MM rests.  This is always automatic.  You never 
"create" any MM rests.  It is inherent. There are some options for 
visual appearance.


4. Multiple sets of not spacings.  I am not aware of anything line 
this in Dorico.  Of course you can edit the parts directly to apply 
any spacing you need.


5. Designate certain text as titles. There is only "text" and "system 
text" in Dorico.  There is no hierarchy of text objects, such as an 
outline mode in a word processor.  However, you have a great deal of 
control over the formatting of any text object and you can freely 
copy and reuse any of your text items.  So if you have a text object 
formatted as a "title", you can copy that anywhere else you need a 
similar title to appear.  Moreover, Dorico has a higher level of 
abstraction for these situations. Your file can consist of multiple 
"flows", which are like movements. And each flow can have a title, 
with options how and when to display those titles.


6. Mass align hairpins.  There is no mass alignment, but if you have 
a 4-bar passage, you can enter the dynamic as "F" and Dorico 
will enter that dynamic as a group that is all aligned.  And if you 
copy that group to other staves, they will be aligned (taking in to 
account the collisions).  So if you enter it properly, you never need 
to go back and fix it.  Dorico moves the groups around (maintaining 
the alignment) as needed even if the music changes to create a new 
collision.


7. Various fixes.  Most of these situations just don't happen in 
Dorico.  And you have complete control over the rhythmic position and 
length of every object, so anything like this is very easy to fix.


8. Movements.  See 5 above.  it is far more elegant than in Finale.  
And flows have other uses.  I often keep extra flows in my score as 
scratchpads or two different versions of a harmonization until I am 
sure I have it right.  I just did a big band chart that has a 16-bar 
a cappella fugue in 4 voices.  That was very tedious as I am not a 
fugue person, so I created a separate flow just for those 16 bars.  
That 16-bar flow 

Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-26 Thread Michael Meyer
Many thanks for taking the time to give us these explanations, Craig. And
to you, Robert, for your answer to my question as well.

— Mike

On January 26, 2019 at 5:01:52 PM, Craig Parmerlee (cr...@parmerlee.com)
wrote:

> Here are some observations about each of the plug-in examples.  Let me
> stipulate that the Finale plug-ins might provide some unusual visual
> results that aren't directly matched by Dorico, so I am not claiming
> equivalence on any of these.
>
> 1. Copy arbitrary material regardless of barlines, etc.  This is
> inherent in Dorico, and I think you would find this far more productive
> in Dorico.  Dorico does not provide any drag-and-drop, but the cut and
> paste model is extremely powerful.  It even allows 1-to-many pasting,
> and pasting to discontinuous staffs and so on.  Also there is a very
> powerful capability where you can select any material, press "R" and it
> automatically duplicates the material placing it immediately to the
> right of the selection, which still expressing everything correctly with
> no touch-up required.
>
> 2. Mass relink.  This is inherent in Dorico.  Moreover, Dorico seems to
> make better assumptions about when to automatically reflect score
> changes in parts and vice versa.
>
> 3. Autocreate MM rests.  This is always automatic.  You never "create"
> any MM rests.  It is inherent. There are some options for visual
> appearance.
>
> 4. Multiple sets of not spacings.  I am not aware of anything line this
> in Dorico.  Of course you can edit the parts directly to apply any
> spacing you need.
>
> 5. Designate certain text as titles. There is only "text" and "system
> text" in Dorico.  There is no hierarchy of text objects, such as an
> outline mode in a word processor.  However, you have a great deal of
> control over the formatting of any text object and you can freely copy
> and reuse any of your text items.  So if you have a text object
> formatted as a "title", you can copy that anywhere else you need a
> similar title to appear.  Moreover, Dorico has a higher level of
> abstraction for these situations.  Your file can consist of multiple
> "flows", which are like movements. And each flow can have a title, with
> options how and when to display those titles.
>
> 6. Mass align hairpins.  There is no mass alignment, but if you have a
> 4-bar passage, you can enter the dynamic as "F" and Dorico will
> enter that dynamic as a group that is all aligned.  And if you copy that
> group to other staves, they will be aligned (taking in to account the
> collisions).  So if you enter it properly, you never need to go back and
> fix it.  Dorico moves the groups around (maintaining the alignment) as
> needed even if the music changes to create a new collision.
>
> 7. Various fixes.  Most of these situations just don't happen in
> Dorico.  And you have complete control over the rhythmic position and
> length of every object, so anything like this is very easy to fix.
>
> 8. Movements.  See 5 above.  it is far more elegant than in Finale.  And
> flows have other uses.  I often keep extra flows in my score as
> scratchpads or two different versions of a harmonization until I am sure
> I have it right.  I just did a big band chart that has a 16-bar a
> cappella fugue in 4 voices.  That was very tedious as I am not a fugue
> person, so I created a separate flow just for those 16 bars.  That
> 16-bar flow was reduced to only 4 players plus a chord playback staff so
> I could get all the counterpoint working.  Once that was right, I coped
> those 16 bars to the main flow and expanded the voices to let that
> section build over the 16 bars.  This is all very straightforward under
> Dorico.  You can certainly do something like that with Finale
> programming a view, but I'd probably put the scratchpad in a completely
> separate MUSX file.  Either way works, but it is much faster in Dorico
> because all of the above is just a few mouse clicks in setup mode.
>
> 9 Transfer page payout.  There is no template capability in Dorico,
> which is a bit of a weakness. However, if you have a score set up the
> way you like it, you can easily copy that and use that as the basis for
> your new project. And you can do that after the fact by exporting your
> flow(s) from one score and importing the flow(s) into the score that has
> the layout your want.  And as far as parts go, Dorico has a "master
> page" structure where you can develop a master page that can be used by
> any number of parts.  This area of Dorico is rather complicated, but
> looks very powerful.  I haven't used it much.
>
> 10.  TG Tools.  No questions on this one.
>
> 11. Proportionately scale staffs.  I don't know about this.  There are
> lots of options in Dorico for this kind of thing, but I don't know that
> any of them do what you want here.
>
> 12. Modeless plug-in problem.  I don't know about that.  There aren't
> any plugins in Dorico.  You can, however, do hot key assignments for any
> of hundreds of 

Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-26 Thread GERALD BERG
Thanks Craig. Most informative.


GJB

On Saturday, January 26, 2019, 5:02 PM, Craig Parmerlee  
wrote:

Here are some observations about each of the plug-in examples.  Let me 
stipulate that the Finale plug-ins might provide some unusual visual 
results that aren't directly matched by Dorico, so I am not claiming  
equivalence on any of these.

1. Copy arbitrary material regardless of barlines, etc.  This is 
inherent in Dorico, and I think you would find this far more productive 
in Dorico.  Dorico does not provide any drag-and-drop, but the cut and 
paste model is extremely powerful.  It even allows 1-to-many pasting, 
and pasting to discontinuous staffs and so on.  Also there is a very 
powerful capability where you can select any material, press "R" and it 
automatically duplicates the material placing it immediately to the 
right of the selection, which still expressing everything correctly with 
no touch-up required.

2. Mass relink.  This is inherent in Dorico.  Moreover, Dorico seems to 
make better assumptions about when to automatically reflect score 
changes in parts and vice versa.

3. Autocreate MM rests.  This is always automatic.  You never "create" 
any MM rests.  It is inherent. There are some options for visual appearance.

4. Multiple sets of not spacings.  I am not aware of anything line this 
in Dorico.  Of course you can edit the parts directly to apply any 
spacing you need.

5. Designate certain text as titles. There is only "text" and "system 
text" in Dorico.  There is no hierarchy of text objects, such as an 
outline mode in a word processor.  However, you have a great deal of 
control over the formatting of any text object and you can freely copy 
and reuse any of your text items.  So if you have a text object 
formatted as a "title", you can copy that anywhere else you need a 
similar title to appear.  Moreover, Dorico has a higher level of 
abstraction for these situations.  Your file can consist of multiple 
"flows", which are like movements. And each flow can have a title, with 
options how and when to display those titles.

6. Mass align hairpins.  There is no mass alignment, but if you have a 
4-bar passage, you can enter the dynamic as "F" and Dorico will 
enter that dynamic as a group that is all aligned.  And if you copy that 
group to other staves, they will be aligned (taking in to account the 
collisions).  So if you enter it properly, you never need to go back and 
fix it.  Dorico moves the groups around (maintaining the alignment) as 
needed even if the music changes to create a new collision.

7. Various fixes.  Most of these situations just don't happen in 
Dorico.  And you have complete control over the rhythmic position and 
length of every object, so anything like this is very easy to fix.

8. Movements.  See 5 above.  it is far more elegant than in Finale.  And 
flows have other uses.  I often keep extra flows in my score as 
scratchpads or two different versions of a harmonization until I am sure 
I have it right.  I just did a big band chart that has a 16-bar a 
cappella fugue in 4 voices.  That was very tedious as I am not a fugue 
person, so I created a separate flow just for those 16 bars.  That 
16-bar flow was reduced to only 4 players plus a chord playback staff so 
I could get all the counterpoint working.  Once that was right, I coped 
those 16 bars to the main flow and expanded the voices to let that 
section build over the 16 bars.  This is all very straightforward under 
Dorico.  You can certainly do something like that with Finale 
programming a view, but I'd probably put the scratchpad in a completely 
separate MUSX file.  Either way works, but it is much faster in Dorico 
because all of the above is just a few mouse clicks in setup mode.

9 Transfer page payout.  There is no template capability in Dorico, 
which is a bit of a weakness. However, if you have a score set up the 
way you like it, you can easily copy that and use that as the basis for 
your new project. And you can do that after the fact by exporting your 
flow(s) from one score and importing the flow(s) into the score that has 
the layout your want.  And as far as parts go, Dorico has a "master 
page" structure where you can develop a master page that can be used by 
any number of parts.  This area of Dorico is rather complicated, but 
looks very powerful.  I haven't used it much.

10.  TG Tools.  No questions on this one.

11. Proportionately scale staffs.  I don't know about this.  There are 
lots of options in Dorico for this kind of thing, but I don't know that 
any of them do what you want here.

12. Modeless plug-in problem.  I don't know about that.  There aren't 
any plugins in Dorico.  You can, however, do hot key assignments for any 
of hundreds of commands. And there are folks who are using the "Stream 
Deck" keypad to really boost their productivity.  I haven't done that 
yet.  That's not a direct replacement for plug-ins, but enables a 
different kind of 

Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-26 Thread David H. Bailey

Craig,

Thank you for sharing these thoughts.  You have made much more progress 
with Dorico than I have made, so I didn't feel qualified to respond. 
But I'm glad you were able to make the comparisons.


I know that becoming better acquainted with Dorico is in my imminent 
future, but most of the projects I've been working on lately have had 
short timetables so learning a new software hasn't been possible.


soon . . .

Thanks,
David


On 1/26/2019 5:01 PM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:
Here are some observations about each of the plug-in examples.  Let me 
stipulate that the Finale plug-ins might provide some unusual visual 
results that aren't directly matched by Dorico, so I am not claiming 
equivalence on any of these.


1. Copy arbitrary material regardless of barlines, etc.  This is 
inherent in Dorico, and I think you would find this far more productive 
in Dorico.  Dorico does not provide any drag-and-drop, but the cut and 
paste model is extremely powerful.  It even allows 1-to-many pasting, 
and pasting to discontinuous staffs and so on.  Also there is a very 
powerful capability where you can select any material, press "R" and it 
automatically duplicates the material placing it immediately to the 
right of the selection, which still expressing everything correctly with 
no touch-up required.


2. Mass relink.  This is inherent in Dorico.  Moreover, Dorico seems to 
make better assumptions about when to automatically reflect score 
changes in parts and vice versa.


3. Autocreate MM rests.  This is always automatic.  You never "create" 
any MM rests.  It is inherent. There are some options for visual 
appearance.


4. Multiple sets of not spacings.  I am not aware of anything line this 
in Dorico.  Of course you can edit the parts directly to apply any 
spacing you need.


5. Designate certain text as titles. There is only "text" and "system 
text" in Dorico.  There is no hierarchy of text objects, such as an 
outline mode in a word processor.  However, you have a great deal of 
control over the formatting of any text object and you can freely copy 
and reuse any of your text items.  So if you have a text object 
formatted as a "title", you can copy that anywhere else you need a 
similar title to appear.  Moreover, Dorico has a higher level of 
abstraction for these situations.  Your file can consist of multiple 
"flows", which are like movements. And each flow can have a title, with 
options how and when to display those titles.


6. Mass align hairpins.  There is no mass alignment, but if you have a 
4-bar passage, you can enter the dynamic as "F" and Dorico will 
enter that dynamic as a group that is all aligned.  And if you copy that 
group to other staves, they will be aligned (taking in to account the 
collisions).  So if you enter it properly, you never need to go back and 
fix it.  Dorico moves the groups around (maintaining the alignment) as 
needed even if the music changes to create a new collision.


7. Various fixes.  Most of these situations just don't happen in 
Dorico.  And you have complete control over the rhythmic position and 
length of every object, so anything like this is very easy to fix.


8. Movements.  See 5 above.  it is far more elegant than in Finale.  And 
flows have other uses.  I often keep extra flows in my score as 
scratchpads or two different versions of a harmonization until I am sure 
I have it right.  I just did a big band chart that has a 16-bar a 
cappella fugue in 4 voices.  That was very tedious as I am not a fugue 
person, so I created a separate flow just for those 16 bars.  That 
16-bar flow was reduced to only 4 players plus a chord playback staff so 
I could get all the counterpoint working.  Once that was right, I coped 
those 16 bars to the main flow and expanded the voices to let that 
section build over the 16 bars.  This is all very straightforward under 
Dorico.  You can certainly do something like that with Finale 
programming a view, but I'd probably put the scratchpad in a completely 
separate MUSX file.  Either way works, but it is much faster in Dorico 
because all of the above is just a few mouse clicks in setup mode.


9 Transfer page payout.  There is no template capability in Dorico, 
which is a bit of a weakness. However, if you have a score set up the 
way you like it, you can easily copy that and use that as the basis for 
your new project. And you can do that after the fact by exporting your 
flow(s) from one score and importing the flow(s) into the score that has 
the layout your want.  And as far as parts go, Dorico has a "master 
page" structure where you can develop a master page that can be used by 
any number of parts.  This area of Dorico is rather complicated, but 
looks very powerful.  I haven't used it much.


10.  TG Tools.  No questions on this one.

11. Proportionately scale staffs.  I don't know about this.  There are 
lots of options in Dorico for this kind of thing, but I don't know that 
any of them do what you 

Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-26 Thread Craig Parmerlee
Here are some observations about each of the plug-in examples.  Let me 
stipulate that the Finale plug-ins might provide some unusual visual 
results that aren't directly matched by Dorico, so I am not claiming  
equivalence on any of these.


1. Copy arbitrary material regardless of barlines, etc.  This is 
inherent in Dorico, and I think you would find this far more productive 
in Dorico.  Dorico does not provide any drag-and-drop, but the cut and 
paste model is extremely powerful.  It even allows 1-to-many pasting, 
and pasting to discontinuous staffs and so on.  Also there is a very 
powerful capability where you can select any material, press "R" and it 
automatically duplicates the material placing it immediately to the 
right of the selection, which still expressing everything correctly with 
no touch-up required.


2. Mass relink.  This is inherent in Dorico.  Moreover, Dorico seems to 
make better assumptions about when to automatically reflect score 
changes in parts and vice versa.


3. Autocreate MM rests.  This is always automatic.  You never "create" 
any MM rests.  It is inherent. There are some options for visual appearance.


4. Multiple sets of not spacings.  I am not aware of anything line this 
in Dorico.  Of course you can edit the parts directly to apply any 
spacing you need.


5. Designate certain text as titles. There is only "text" and "system 
text" in Dorico.  There is no hierarchy of text objects, such as an 
outline mode in a word processor.  However, you have a great deal of 
control over the formatting of any text object and you can freely copy 
and reuse any of your text items.  So if you have a text object 
formatted as a "title", you can copy that anywhere else you need a 
similar title to appear.  Moreover, Dorico has a higher level of 
abstraction for these situations.  Your file can consist of multiple 
"flows", which are like movements. And each flow can have a title, with 
options how and when to display those titles.


6. Mass align hairpins.  There is no mass alignment, but if you have a 
4-bar passage, you can enter the dynamic as "F" and Dorico will 
enter that dynamic as a group that is all aligned.  And if you copy that 
group to other staves, they will be aligned (taking in to account the 
collisions).  So if you enter it properly, you never need to go back and 
fix it.  Dorico moves the groups around (maintaining the alignment) as 
needed even if the music changes to create a new collision.


7. Various fixes.  Most of these situations just don't happen in 
Dorico.  And you have complete control over the rhythmic position and 
length of every object, so anything like this is very easy to fix.


8. Movements.  See 5 above.  it is far more elegant than in Finale.  And 
flows have other uses.  I often keep extra flows in my score as 
scratchpads or two different versions of a harmonization until I am sure 
I have it right.  I just did a big band chart that has a 16-bar a 
cappella fugue in 4 voices.  That was very tedious as I am not a fugue 
person, so I created a separate flow just for those 16 bars.  That 
16-bar flow was reduced to only 4 players plus a chord playback staff so 
I could get all the counterpoint working.  Once that was right, I coped 
those 16 bars to the main flow and expanded the voices to let that 
section build over the 16 bars.  This is all very straightforward under 
Dorico.  You can certainly do something like that with Finale 
programming a view, but I'd probably put the scratchpad in a completely 
separate MUSX file.  Either way works, but it is much faster in Dorico 
because all of the above is just a few mouse clicks in setup mode.


9 Transfer page payout.  There is no template capability in Dorico, 
which is a bit of a weakness. However, if you have a score set up the 
way you like it, you can easily copy that and use that as the basis for 
your new project. And you can do that after the fact by exporting your 
flow(s) from one score and importing the flow(s) into the score that has 
the layout your want.  And as far as parts go, Dorico has a "master 
page" structure where you can develop a master page that can be used by 
any number of parts.  This area of Dorico is rather complicated, but 
looks very powerful.  I haven't used it much.


10.  TG Tools.  No questions on this one.

11. Proportionately scale staffs.  I don't know about this.  There are 
lots of options in Dorico for this kind of thing, but I don't know that 
any of them do what you want here.


12. Modeless plug-in problem.  I don't know about that.  There aren't 
any plugins in Dorico.  You can, however, do hot key assignments for any 
of hundreds of commands. And there are folks who are using the "Stream 
Deck" keypad to really boost their productivity.  I haven't done that 
yet.  That's not a direct replacement for plug-ins, but enables a 
different kind of workflow that may enable even greater productivity 
than you get from plug-ins.


I'm not trying to 

Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-26 Thread Robert Patterson
Many that I described are plugins that I developed myself and are available
in the Patterson Plugins Collection at my website. Some are in the full
version of TGTools. Some are available as free downloads on Jari
Williamsson's website.

On Sat, Jan 26, 2019 at 11:03 AM Michael Meyer  wrote:

> So Robert, when you say “3rd party plugin” do you mean plugins that others
> have made that you’ve procured along the way? Or “3rd party” meaning “not
> included in the included Finale plugins” and so you have made all of these
> on your own?
>
> Just a question out of curiosity more than anything. Thanks for all of your
> descriptions here, this is an amazing discussion! And I would love to hear
> how many of these are addressed in Dorico out-of-the-box from someone who
> is using it regularly.
>
> — Mike
>
> On January 26, 2019 at 10:04:45 AM, Robert Patterson (
> rob...@robertgpatterson.com) wrote:
>
> > Besides the Patterson Beams, TGTools, and JW plugins included in Finale,
> I
> > use 3rd party plugins to
> >
> > 1. Copy arbitrary combinations and patterns of expressions, dynamics,
> > articulations, and other elements in a repeated fashion, independent of
> > barlines, both vertically and horizontally.
> >
> > 2. Mass Relink, which can relink the score to the part's settings or vice
> > versa.
> >
> > 3. Autocreate multimeasure rests with many more options than Finale has,
> > including the ability to add extra space for clef changes or force the
> > creation of multimeasure rests in places where Finale won't create them.
> >
> > 4. Maintain multiple sets of note spacing settings per measure region and
> > per part. Then a single invocation of the plugin spaces the music
> according
> > to those settings, taking into account the current part. Even better, by
> > means of a nifty trick that someone suggested on this list. the plugins
> can
> > get tighter spacing with ledger lines than Finale does.
> >
> > 5. Designate certain text expressions as titles (i.e., for movement
> titles)
> > or footnotes or headnotes. Then invoke a plugin than finds them in every
> > part and correctly positions them. This is *way* better workaround than
> > Finale's Page Titles for this kind of thing.
> >
> > 6. Mass align and move dynamics and hairpins. (TGTools Align/Move is
> > included in Finale but the version in the full TGTools is much more
> > powerful.)
> >
> > 7. Quickly repair common screwups in Finale, such as restoring lost note
> > spacing from a saved copy or moving expressions and endpoints that have
> > lost their notes due to Speedy edits.
> >
> > 8. With one simple menu click, start a new movement. That is, show full
> > names, indent the first system, restart the measure numbers from 1,
> twiddle
> > the measure bits in the current and preceding measure as needed. With one
> > menu click that has no dialog box.
> >
> > 9. Transfer page layout from one document to another and/or one part to
> > another and/or within a single document or part. Including (optionally)
> > system baselines for expressions and lyrics.
> >
> > 10. I recently discovered the JW Change plugin that can do so much that I
> > have only begun to digest all the ways in which I might use it.
> >
> > 11. TGTools has an option to proportionally expand or contract the staves
> > in a system. This saves me hours, especially on large multistaff scores
> > like orchestra scores. Then once you have that system perfectly fitted to
> > your margins, you can copy the staff layout to page after page and make
> > only minor tweaks thereafter.
> >
> > 12. Fix the focus problem with modeless plugin windows on Mac (Fin25.4
> and
> > higher).
> >
> > There are doubtless many, many others, but those come to mind right now.
> >
> > When I sit down to work on plugins, I try to think of every pain point in
> > using this beast of a program called Finale. Sometimes I note the pain
> > points as I work on a piece. Either way, after 20 years of this I am just
> > about out of ideas. I've addressed every pain point I can think of that a
> > plugin can address. There are a few that are intractable in current
> Finale,
> > but even for those I've tried to develop palliative workarounds. (Like
> > using expressions for movement titles.) Sometimes it takes years for me
> to
> > realize a plugin can even do something. Like for years I thought plugins
> > could not relink scores and parts, since linkage is not visible to
> plugins.
> > But then I thought of a way that works for most unlinkable items.
> >
> > If you want to share your pain points, I'll tell you if there is a plugin
> > solution I use. Because there probably is. (Other than playback. I don't
> do
> > much with playback.)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 26, 2019 at 6:09 AM Lawrence David Eden 
> > wrote:
> >
> > This is an interesting discussion….I am interested in hearing what 3rd
> > party plugins are you referring to, Robert. I am always looking for ways
> > to automate Finale.
> >
> > 

Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-26 Thread Michael Meyer
So Robert, when you say “3rd party plugin” do you mean plugins that others
have made that you’ve procured along the way? Or “3rd party” meaning “not
included in the included Finale plugins” and so you have made all of these
on your own?

Just a question out of curiosity more than anything. Thanks for all of your
descriptions here, this is an amazing discussion! And I would love to hear
how many of these are addressed in Dorico out-of-the-box from someone who
is using it regularly.

— Mike

On January 26, 2019 at 10:04:45 AM, Robert Patterson (
rob...@robertgpatterson.com) wrote:

> Besides the Patterson Beams, TGTools, and JW plugins included in Finale, I
> use 3rd party plugins to
>
> 1. Copy arbitrary combinations and patterns of expressions, dynamics,
> articulations, and other elements in a repeated fashion, independent of
> barlines, both vertically and horizontally.
>
> 2. Mass Relink, which can relink the score to the part's settings or vice
> versa.
>
> 3. Autocreate multimeasure rests with many more options than Finale has,
> including the ability to add extra space for clef changes or force the
> creation of multimeasure rests in places where Finale won't create them.
>
> 4. Maintain multiple sets of note spacing settings per measure region and
> per part. Then a single invocation of the plugin spaces the music according
> to those settings, taking into account the current part. Even better, by
> means of a nifty trick that someone suggested on this list. the plugins can
> get tighter spacing with ledger lines than Finale does.
>
> 5. Designate certain text expressions as titles (i.e., for movement titles)
> or footnotes or headnotes. Then invoke a plugin than finds them in every
> part and correctly positions them. This is *way* better workaround than
> Finale's Page Titles for this kind of thing.
>
> 6. Mass align and move dynamics and hairpins. (TGTools Align/Move is
> included in Finale but the version in the full TGTools is much more
> powerful.)
>
> 7. Quickly repair common screwups in Finale, such as restoring lost note
> spacing from a saved copy or moving expressions and endpoints that have
> lost their notes due to Speedy edits.
>
> 8. With one simple menu click, start a new movement. That is, show full
> names, indent the first system, restart the measure numbers from 1, twiddle
> the measure bits in the current and preceding measure as needed. With one
> menu click that has no dialog box.
>
> 9. Transfer page layout from one document to another and/or one part to
> another and/or within a single document or part. Including (optionally)
> system baselines for expressions and lyrics.
>
> 10. I recently discovered the JW Change plugin that can do so much that I
> have only begun to digest all the ways in which I might use it.
>
> 11. TGTools has an option to proportionally expand or contract the staves
> in a system. This saves me hours, especially on large multistaff scores
> like orchestra scores. Then once you have that system perfectly fitted to
> your margins, you can copy the staff layout to page after page and make
> only minor tweaks thereafter.
>
> 12. Fix the focus problem with modeless plugin windows on Mac (Fin25.4 and
> higher).
>
> There are doubtless many, many others, but those come to mind right now.
>
> When I sit down to work on plugins, I try to think of every pain point in
> using this beast of a program called Finale. Sometimes I note the pain
> points as I work on a piece. Either way, after 20 years of this I am just
> about out of ideas. I've addressed every pain point I can think of that a
> plugin can address. There are a few that are intractable in current Finale,
> but even for those I've tried to develop palliative workarounds. (Like
> using expressions for movement titles.) Sometimes it takes years for me to
> realize a plugin can even do something. Like for years I thought plugins
> could not relink scores and parts, since linkage is not visible to plugins.
> But then I thought of a way that works for most unlinkable items.
>
> If you want to share your pain points, I'll tell you if there is a plugin
> solution I use. Because there probably is. (Other than playback. I don't do
> much with playback.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 26, 2019 at 6:09 AM Lawrence David Eden 
> wrote:
>
> This is an interesting discussion….I am interested in hearing what 3rd
> party plugins are you referring to, Robert. I am always looking for ways
> to automate Finale.
>
> Larry Eden
>
> On Jan 25, 2019, at 11:03 AM, Robert Patterson <
>
> rob...@robertgpatterson.com> wrote:
>
>
> I would be very interested to know more specifics about the things that
>
> are
>
> "well beyond Fin/Sib". Graphically, I know about flexible slurs, and I
> would be curious to know if lines (like 8va) also have multiple
>
> inflection
>
> points.
>
> Beyond that, I would be curious to know what makes Dorico so much more
> superior for part layout.
>
> Do you use any 3rd party plugins with Finale? In 

Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-26 Thread Robert Patterson
Besides the Patterson Beams, TGTools, and JW plugins included in Finale, I
use 3rd party plugins to

1. Copy arbitrary combinations and patterns of expressions, dynamics,
articulations, and other elements in a repeated fashion, independent of
barlines, both vertically and horizontally.

2. Mass Relink, which can relink the score to the part's settings or vice
versa.

3. Autocreate multimeasure rests with many more options than Finale has,
including the ability to add extra space for clef changes or force the
creation of multimeasure rests in places where Finale won't create them.

4. Maintain multiple sets of note spacing settings per measure region and
per part. Then a single invocation of the plugin spaces the music according
to those settings, taking into account the current part. Even better, by
means of a nifty trick that someone suggested on this list. the plugins can
get tighter spacing with ledger lines than Finale does.

5. Designate certain text expressions as titles (i.e., for movement titles)
or footnotes or headnotes. Then invoke a plugin than finds them in every
part and correctly positions them. This is *way* better workaround than
Finale's Page Titles for this kind of thing.

6. Mass align and move dynamics and hairpins. (TGTools Align/Move is
included in Finale but the version in the full TGTools is much more
powerful.)

7. Quickly repair common screwups in Finale, such as restoring lost note
spacing from a saved copy or moving expressions and endpoints that have
lost their notes due to Speedy edits.

8. With one simple menu click, start a new movement. That is, show full
names, indent the first system, restart the measure numbers from 1, twiddle
the measure bits in the current and preceding measure as needed. With one
menu click that has no dialog box.

9. Transfer page layout from one document to another and/or one part to
another and/or within a single document or part. Including (optionally)
system baselines for expressions and lyrics.

10. I recently discovered the JW Change plugin that can do so much that I
have only begun to digest all the ways in which I might use it.

11. TGTools has an option to proportionally expand or contract the staves
in a system. This saves me hours, especially on large multistaff scores
like orchestra scores. Then once you have that system perfectly fitted to
your margins, you can copy the staff layout to page after page and make
only minor tweaks thereafter.

12. Fix the focus problem with modeless plugin windows on Mac (Fin25.4 and
higher).

There are doubtless many, many others, but those come to mind right now.

When I sit down to work on plugins, I try to think of every pain point in
using this beast of a program called Finale. Sometimes I note the pain
points as I work on a piece. Either way, after 20 years of this I am just
about out of ideas. I've addressed every pain point I can think of that a
plugin can address. There are a few that are intractable in current Finale,
but even for those I've tried to develop palliative workarounds. (Like
using expressions for movement titles.) Sometimes it takes years for me to
realize a plugin can even do something. Like for years I thought plugins
could not relink scores and parts, since linkage is not visible to plugins.
But then I thought of a way that works for most unlinkable items.

If you want to share your pain points, I'll tell you if there is a plugin
solution I use. Because there probably is. (Other than playback. I don't do
much with playback.)








On Sat, Jan 26, 2019 at 6:09 AM Lawrence David Eden 
wrote:

> This is an interesting discussion….I am interested in hearing what 3rd
> party plugins are you referring to, Robert.   I am always looking for ways
> to automate Finale.
>
> Larry Eden
>
> > On Jan 25, 2019, at 11:03 AM, Robert Patterson <
> rob...@robertgpatterson.com> wrote:
> >
> > I would be very interested to know more specifics about the things that
> are
> > "well beyond Fin/Sib". Graphically, I know about flexible slurs, and I
> > would be curious to know if lines (like 8va) also have multiple
> inflection
> > points.
> >
> > Beyond that, I would be curious to know what makes Dorico so much more
> > superior for part layout.
> >
> > Do you use any 3rd party plugins with Finale? In my experience, working
> > without key 3rd party plugins in Finale is the slag mines. But I've
> > developed a workflow using several key plugins that is very fast for many
> > of the things you mentioned. In fact, it is difficult to imagine them
> being
> > much faster.
> >
> > ymmv
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 2:38 PM Craig Parmerlee 
> wrote:
> >
> >> I would also note Sibelius 2019 was announced this week.  It seems to be
> >> roughly the same magnitude of the Finale 26 release.  I am sure the
> >> improvements are welcome, but really, this is a minuscule amount of
> >> improvement for a paid release.  Dorico is adding capability 10-to-100
> >> times faster than either Finale or Sibelius.
> >>

Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

2019-01-26 Thread Lawrence David Eden
This is an interesting discussion….I am interested in hearing what 3rd party 
plugins are you referring to, Robert.   I am always looking for ways to 
automate Finale.

Larry Eden

> On Jan 25, 2019, at 11:03 AM, Robert Patterson  
> wrote:
> 
> I would be very interested to know more specifics about the things that are
> "well beyond Fin/Sib". Graphically, I know about flexible slurs, and I
> would be curious to know if lines (like 8va) also have multiple inflection
> points.
> 
> Beyond that, I would be curious to know what makes Dorico so much more
> superior for part layout.
> 
> Do you use any 3rd party plugins with Finale? In my experience, working
> without key 3rd party plugins in Finale is the slag mines. But I've
> developed a workflow using several key plugins that is very fast for many
> of the things you mentioned. In fact, it is difficult to imagine them being
> much faster.
> 
> ymmv
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 2:38 PM Craig Parmerlee  wrote:
> 
>> I would also note Sibelius 2019 was announced this week.  It seems to be
>> roughly the same magnitude of the Finale 26 release.  I am sure the
>> improvements are welcome, but really, this is a minuscule amount of
>> improvement for a paid release.  Dorico is adding capability 10-to-100
>> times faster than either Finale or Sibelius.
>> 
>> Dorico has a steep learning curve, and it is getting steeper all the
>> time as layers of capability are added.  It still lacks a few things
>> that the other programs have. For example, there is not yet any
>> automatic way to have a single line in the score (e.g. FHorn 1&3) break
>> out to separate parts for Fhorn 1 and FHorn 3.  And Dorico's automatic
>> playback isn't as advanced as Finale Human Playback.  But Dorico already
>> does some things that are well beyond Finale and Sibelius.  Moreover,
>> the architecture is more elegant, particularly in the ability to lay out
>> music intelligently in a minimum amount of time.  On the playback side,
>> many people are using Note Performer with Dorico and claiming very good
>> results.  I don't care that much.  The playback is good enough for what
>> I do.
>> 
>> I still have Finale 25 installed in case it is required for a
>> collaboration, but I am doing all my new projects in Dorico now.  I find
>> a typical project is taking about half as long with Dorico as I would
>> have spent in Finale.  Much of that comes at the back end where I had to
>> spend hours in final editing of part layouts.  With Dorico I typically
>> spend about one minute per page for part layout -- sometimes no editing
>> at all. But Dorico also provides big opportunities for time saving
>> during the note entry and harmonization processes.
>> 
>> 
>> On 1/22/2019 8:21 AM, David H. Bailey wrote:
>>> Hello Finale and Sibelius Friends,
>>> 
>>> I'm forwarding this message to both the Finale and Sibelius groups, in
>>> case anybody is interested in exploring Dorico.  Using the code
>>> DORICO30 you can get 30% off of either Dorico 2 or Dorico Elements 2
>>> (a lighter version of Dorico) for this week only apparently.
>>> 
>>> Both of those programs also have free demo versions you can download
>>> and explore.
>>> 
>>> I'm not trying to push it on anybody but I know some people might be
>>> curious.  Version 2 brought many major improvements over version 1.
>>> 
>>> I freely admit that I am still not very fluent in Dorico, knowing that
>>> it will take me a lot of work to master it, but I also know there are
>>> people in both Finale and Sibelius groups who have taken to Dorico and
>>> are doing major projects in it.
>>> 
>>> There is a forum at steinberg.net for people who want to get a sense
>>> of how users are faring with the product.
>>> 
>>> Dorico still uses their elicenser software or their extra-cost USB
>>> dongle, so for people who are vehemently opposed to such anti-piracy
>>> methods, nothing has changed and you probably won't want to explore
>>> Dorico beyond the demo versions (I don't know if those have any
>>> anti-piracy methods since they're freely distributed by Steinberg.)
>>> 
>>> However, given the lack of forward motion in Sibelius and the lack of
>>> substantive improvements in Finale beyond the automatic stacking of
>>> articulations, Dorico may well be the future of professional level
>>> computer notation software.
>>> 
>>> Just wanted to let you all know,
>>> David H. Bailey
>> 
>> 
>> ---
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>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>> 
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