Re: [firebug] Re: new firebug is extremely awful

[Darren G]

Agree. But it's a problem created by the browsers. Not the websites. And
it's the world we live in.

On Apr 16, 2017 11:27 AM, "Erik Krause"  wrote:

> Am 16.04.2017 um 16:37 schrieb Darren G:
>
>> At end of day people don't care about extension API this or that. Without
>> firebug no one will write extensions or build compatible websites for
>> Firefox. And that will be the end of it.
>>
>
> When it comes to choose a browser the question should be: "Whom do I want
> to give my data?"
>
> Websites should be standards compliant though, _not_ written for a
> specific browser...
>
> --
> Erik Krause
>
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Re: [firebug] Re: new firebug is extremely awful

[Darren G]

Been watching this thread. Very unfortunate despite the reasons.

The moral is that whatever API, compatibility, resourcing or other
technical justifications its important to understand your users.

People who just browse sure. Don't need firebug but without developers
building for Firefox it will die. This dichotomy should never be disrupted
for any reason. It destroys the lifeblood of a product community.

At end of day people don't care about extension API this or that. Without
firebug no one will write extensions or build compatible websites for
Firefox. And that will be the end of it.


On Apr 15, 2017 6:20 AM, "Sebastian Zartner" 
wrote:

> On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 12:08:45 PM UTC+2, Naked Love wrote:
>>
>> Dear Sebastian, I appreciate that you are trying to respond to all the
>> queries and you are being politically correct but whatever it is, its not
>> firebug its dev tools or whatever, what matters is that it really sucks.
>> Firebug was the only reason I used to install Mozilla every time. It used
>> to make you more powerful while doing some development work. All the
>> firebug lovers will agree to that.
>>
>
> It's great to hear that you love Firebug. So do I. And that's why I
> advocated for continuing Firebug as a separate extension in the discussions
> to integrate it into the Firefox DevTools and actually left the team when
> the decision was made
> 
> .
>
> Now I'm telling Firebug users to at least give the Firefox DevTools a try.
> While their UI is still not as good as Firebug's and I am also still
> missing several features, those tools are way better than their reputation
> and it's sad for me to see so many people move to Chrome just because
> Firebug doesn't work anymore. Every tool has it's advantages and
> disadvantages , be it the
> Firefox DevTools, Firebug, the Chrome DevTools or any other browser
> developer tools.
>
> Please if possible put it back on. Whatever this new thing is, it just
>> sucks. I loved the old firebug it was a simple yet effective tool.
>>
>
> With the changes in Firefox regarding multiple processes
>  (aka
> e10s ) and Mozilla's decision to only
> support WebExtensions starting from Firefox 57
> , there is
> just no way that Firebug comes back.
>
> Background:
> E10s means separate processes for the browser UI and the website contents,
> i.e. better performance and stability for the browser, meaning when a page
> hangs, it doesn't freeze the Firefox UI anymore. Though it also means that
> extensions are required to use new message-based APIs to access the page's
> contents. Firebug's code accesses the page's contents directly in many
> different places, though, which would have required to rewrite the a huge
> amount of code.
> WebExtensions are an established way to write extensions that work
> cross-browser, i.e. this enables extension developers to write extensions
> that work in all browsers. While this is good for people that want to write
> new extensions, existing ones need to be adapted to the new APIs in order
> to continue to work. Also, WebExtensions have limited access to the browser
> internals, which makes them safer for users but at the same time doesn't
> provide the flexibility of existing extensions. Because Firebug is based on
> extension code (Add-on SDK), which will be deprecated once Firefox 57 is
> released, this would have meant to basically recreate it from skretch with
> less functionality.
> And the Firebug Working Group - mainly consisting of one full-time
> programmer and three volunteer contributors spending their free time
> working on it - simply didn't have the resources to do all that.
>
> Having said all that, you can disable multi-process Firefox
>  to get Firebug to work again
> temporarily until this feature can't be disabled anymore or Firefox 57 is
> released (depending on which one comes first).
> I've also outlined the alternatives you currently have regarding the
> Firefox DevTools .
>
> Sebastian
>
> PS: Please refrain from hateful speech! Complaining about the DevTools
> doesn't bring back Firebug and the DevTools team doesn't follow this
> thread, anyway, so it's wasted time.
>
> On Thursday, February 9, 2017 at 12:03:36 AM UTC+5:30, Sebastian Zartner
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> There is no new Firebug, Firebug is discontinued. You got automatically
>>> switched to the Firefox DevTools (with a Firebug theme to make the
>>> transition a little easier). Please see the related Mozilla Hacks blog
>>> post
>>> 
>>> for more info and read the migration guide
>>> 

Re: [firebug] Re: new firebug is extremely awful

[Sebastian Zartner]

On Monday, April 3, 2017 at 3:58:09 PM UTC+2, fred.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> It is definitely a huge burden to extension developers, because in most 
>> cases they have to rework huge parts of their extensions. By the way, I'm 
>> also one of those developers, and I am also sad about that decision. But 
>> that discussion is out of the scope of this forum.
>>
>> Sebastian
>>
>
> That discussion should have been held together with the people that built 
> Mozilla (the developers/designers).
>
> Mozilla made the effort to write a 'migration guide' (how 1998)
>

For your information: The migration guide was mainly written by me, a 
volunteer contributor to Mozilla (currently mostly working on MDN 
) and previously to Firebug. I'd also have 
liked a smoother transition between both tools, though it's better than 
nothing.

for a program that should be intuitive, but they neglected to address the 
> very silly and totally avoidable closing/docking button issue of the FF 
> devtools that makes me scared of the beast.
>

As I wrote in the other thread you opened 
 that's 
fixed in Firefox 55. But yeah, it is a silly issue that should have been 
recognized and fixed earlier.

Having said that, if you recognize such UX issues, you should file bug 
reports  to let the DevTools 
team know about them. Or, if you feel up to it, you can even help them to 
fix the bugs .

Sebastian

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Re: [firebug] Re: new firebug is extremely awful

[fred . heuvel1]

>
> It is definitely a huge burden to extension developers, because in most 
> cases they have to rework huge parts of their extensions. By the way, I'm 
> also one of those developers, and I am also sad about that decision. But 
> that discussion is out of the scope of this forum.
>
> Sebastian
>

That discussion should have been held together with the people that built 
Mozilla (the developers/designers).

Mozilla made the effort to write a 'migration guide' (how 1998) for a 
program that should be intuitive, but they neglected to address the very 
silly and totally avoidable closing/docking button issue of the FF devtools 
that makes me scared of the beast.

What has changed at Mozilla? Because this is very new to me: From UX 
inspiration to UX laughing stock within a few weeks. Just because of a few 
stupid and avoidable mistakes. And my guess is that it has nothing to do 
with UX'ers or developers but with 'the people in the boardroom'. I don't 
believe that the developers at Mozilla are pleased with the sloppyness.

Fred

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Re: [firebug] Re: new firebug is extremely awful

[Sebastian Zartner]

On Thursday, March 30, 2017 at 8:06:05 AM UTC+2, San wrote:
>
> One of the linked pages says that Firefox 47 was the last version fully 
> compatible with Firebug. It links to a sourceforge page with "portable" 
> Firefox 47 -- but all the downloadables appear to be .exe files, so useless 
> to me on my Mac.
>

Then you missed my link (saying "Install an old version of Firefox") to 
Mozilla's official download server:
https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/firefox/releases/

There you can find all Firefox versions ever released for all OSes.

GetFirebug.com also seems to mention FF 47 as the cutoff -- it lists 
> Firebug 2.0.17 as working with "Firefox 33-47".
>
> In my archives, I have Mac Firefox installers for 45.3.0 ESR, and for FF 
> 48.0.2, but not for FF 47.x.  Will FF 48.0.2 fully work with some version 
> of Firebug? If not, do you happen to know where I can download a safe copy 
> of Mac FF 47? Thanks much.
>

A quick test indicated that Firefox 50.0 was the version that broke the 
*Script* panel, so Firefox 49.x should still work fine.
 

> ​By the way, regarding "...extensions will still need to be ported to the 
> new architecture in order to continue work"... just about all the extension 
> developers that matter to me say they're giving up, and aren't going to 
> rewrite their code. Many say it wouldn't even be possible with the new 
> architecture, but even if it were possible, they're jumping ship.
>

It is definitely a huge burden to extension developers, because in most 
cases they have to rework huge parts of their extensions. By the way, I'm 
also one of those developers, and I am also sad about that decision. But 
that discussion is out of the scope of this forum.

Sebastian

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Re: [firebug] Re: new firebug is extremely awful

[Lawrence San]

One of the linked pages says that Firefox 47 was the last version fully
compatible with Firebug. It links to a sourceforge page with "portable"
Firefox 47 -- but all the downloadables appear to be .exe files, so useless
to me on my Mac.

GetFirebug.com also seems to mention FF 47 as the cutoff -- it lists
Firebug 2.0.17 as working with "Firefox 33-47".

In my archives, I have Mac Firefox installers for 45.3.0 ESR, and for FF
48.0.2, but not for FF 47.x.  Will FF 48.0.2 fully work with some version
of Firebug? If not, do you happen to know where I can download a safe copy
of Mac FF 47? Thanks much.

​By the way, regarding "...extensions will still need to be ported to the
new architecture in order to continue work"... just about all the extension
developers that matter to me say they're giving up, and aren't going to
rewrite their code. Many say it wouldn't even be possible with the new
architecture, but even if it were possible, they're jumping ship.
​

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Re: [firebug] Re: new firebug is extremely awful

[Sebastian Zartner]

On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 6:14:19 PM UTC+2, San wrote:
>
> On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 6:56 AM, M Gol >
>  wrote:
>
>> ... i don't get it, up until a few days ago firebug was awesome, now 
>> automatically it's crap because it's discontinued?  Can I still use the old 
>> (good) one, even though it's discontinued, if i promise to not call 
>> support? I never have in the last x years i've been using it, but this new 
>> one is worse than chrome's dev tools :s sorry
>>
>>
> Nobody here is saying that Firebug is "crap"... just that it doesn't work 
> anymore with the newer versions of Firefox.
>

Just to clarify this again. There is no "new Firebug". What you are seeing 
are the Firefox DevTools using a Firebug theme 
. 
Anything that you had in Firebug and you're now missing in the DevTools and 
that is not yet filed 
,
 
should be suggested in the related thread 
.

Also I'm not aware that there was ever a way to "call support" -- what 
> support? This is just a user forum, by the way, not an official Mozilla 
> forum.
>

It is the official Firebug forum, though, where Firebug users were meant to 
get help. But it's correct that this is not a Mozilla forum.

The only way to get Firebug to work again is to roll back Firefox to an 
> earlier version and stay there (don't update FF anymore).
>

There are actually more alternatives to the Firefox DevTools 
. If you want to get back 
Firebug (temporarily, until multi-process Firefox becomes mandatory), I've 
described how you can do this on Stack Overflow 
.
 

> Which I'm probably going to do anyway within the next few months... 
> because the people who control FF are going to kill off far more than 
> Firebug. They're planning to kill almost the entire FF extensions 
> architecture (XUL). That will break my entire development environment, 
> which relies on numerous extensions plus custom scripts I wrote to tie them 
> together. Mozilla is planning to replace the current extensions environment 
> with Chrome's inferior system.
>
>From my point of view, this means that Firefox is going to commit suicide 
> later this year.
>

To give some background, Mozilla plans that Firefox 57 (shipping in 
November 2017) will only support WebExtensions 

 
and drop support for legacy extensions, which means that most current 
Firefox extensions won't work anymore at that point. Firefox will provide 
advanced APIs (actually does already) over the ones of Chrome (and other 
browsers), though extensions will still need to be ported to the new 
architecture in order to continue work.

Sebastian

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Re: [firebug] Re: new firebug is extremely awful

[Lawrence San]

On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 6:56 AM, M Gol  wrote:

> ... i don't get it, up until a few days ago firebug was awesome, now
> automatically it's crap because it's discontinued?  Can I still use the old
> (good) one, even though it's discontinued, if i promise to not call
> support? I never have in the last x years i've been using it, but this new
> one is worse than chrome's dev tools :s sorry
>
>
Nobody here is saying that Firebug is "crap"... just that it doesn't work
anymore with the newer versions of Firefox. Also I'm not aware that there
was ever a way to "call support" -- what support? This is just a user
forum, by the way, not an official Mozilla forum.

The only way to get Firebug to work again is to roll back Firefox to an
earlier version and stay there (don't update FF anymore). Which I'm
probably going to do anyway within the next few months... because the
people who control FF are going to kill off far more than Firebug. They're
planning to kill almost the entire FF extensions architecture (XUL). That
will break my entire development environment, which relies on numerous
extensions plus custom scripts I wrote to tie them together. Mozilla is
planning to replace the current extensions environment with Chrome's
inferior system. From my point of view, this means that Firefox is going to
commit suicide later this year.

Of course, running an old browser isn't safe for general browsing purposes
(no security updates) which raises a whole other set of hassles -- using
different browsers for different purposes.

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Re: [firebug] Re: new firebug is extremely awful

[John Alexander]

Sebastian, you have the patience of Job. After all those great years of
development and such a labour of love, to be able to respond to such a
nasty remark like that with patience and clarity is impressive. Thanks for
all your efforts !
John

On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 3:31 PM, Sebastian Zartner <
sebastianzart...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Please note that this thread is *not* reaching the DevTools team.
>
> I am trying to forward specific requests about missing features and UX
> improvements, but if you want to reach the DevTools team directly, please
> do that via their official communication channels
> .
> And I suggest, when you do so, try to be as specific as possible. It's hard
> to act on general complaints.
>
> Sebastian
>
> On Monday, February 13, 2017 at 2:23:10 PM UTC+1, Jörg Steinhauer wrote:
>>
>> yes, the new "firebug" sucks! in comparison to old one it'S a crap, what
>> a shame. think about to switch to chrome.
>> FF and firebug was my tool #1 for webdev for years! but now... guys, I
>> hope you fix that stuff...
>>
>> Am Mittwoch, 8. Februar 2017 13:29:37 UTC+1 schrieb i...@pitertour.ru:
>>>
>>> sad...
>>>
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