Loet -- A metabiolgy does not imply that there would not be more-than-biological properties and processes going on. We would not bother to identify a higher level unless it had some of its own emergent properties.
STAN On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 5:35 AM, Loet Leydesdorff <l...@leydesdorff.net> wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > > > I don’t consider it as fruitful to recycle the argument that society were > to be modeled as a meta-biology. The biological explanation can perhaps > explain behavior of individuals and institutions; but social coordination > more generally involves also the dynamics of expectations. These are much > more abstract although conditioned by the historical layer. For example, > one cannot expect to explain the *trias politica* or the rule of law > biologically. These cultural constructs regulate our behavior from above, > whereas the biological supports existence and living from below. The > historical follows the axis of time, whereas the codification (albeit > historical in the instantiations) also restructures and potentially > intervenes and reorganizes social relations from the perspective of > hindsight. > > > > In analogy to codifications such as the juridical ones, scientific > knowledge provides the code for technological intervention. This type of > knowledge is human-specific; perhaps, we are also able to build machines > that mimick it. This technological evolution is going on for centuries. If > I look up from my screen, I look into the gardens which have a typical > Dutch polder vegetation. The polder was made in the 17th century and > replaced the natural ecology of marsh land and lakes. The order of the > explanation was thus inverted: the constructed structures (instead of the > constructing agencies) increasingly carry the system. The constructs don’t > have to be material; see my example of the rule of law. It is not a > religion, but a dynamics of expectations. Replacing it with a biology > misses the point. > > > > Best, > > Loet > > > ------------------------------ > > Loet Leydesdorff > > Professor, University of Amsterdam > Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR) > > l...@leydesdorff.net ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/ > Honorary Professor, SPRU, <http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/>University of > Sussex; > > Guest Professor Zhejiang Univ. <http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/>, > Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, ISTIC, > <http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html>Beijing; > > Visiting Professor, Birkbeck <http://www.bbk.ac.uk/>, University of > London; > > http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en > > > > *From:* Fis [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] *On Behalf Of *Nikhil > Joshi > *Sent:* Friday, December 11, 2015 9:47 AM > *To:* FIS Group > *Cc:* Nikhil Joshi > *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Sustainability through multilevel research: The > Lifel, Deep Society Build-A-Thon - 1 > > > > Dear Guy and FIS colleagues, > > Thank you for your comments and the copy of your article. Your views on > the roots of biological systems and their evolution in dissipate systems > are very interesting. Your paper reminds me of a paper by Virgo and Froese > on how simple dissipative structures can demonstrate many of the > characteristics associated with living systems, and the work of Jeremy > England at MIT. > > > > Given your research focus and expertise in looking at living systems as > dissipative systems, I would appreciate your views and assistance in > understanding the energetics involved in the common multilevel > organisational pattern (CMOP) (presented in the paper II of the kick-off > mail). > > > > At first glance, it appears that different levels in self-organization in > living systems a core dynamic in living systems is comprised of a cycle > between a class of more-stable species (coupled-composite species) and a > class of less-stable species (decoupled-composite species), see paper II in > the kick-off mail. > > hence: > > Level 1: Molecular self-organization, involves a cycle between oxidised > molecules (more stable) and reduced molecules (less stable) in molecular > self-organization in photosynthesis and cellular metabolism [Morowitz and > smith]. > > > > Level 2: Cellular self-orgnaization, involves a cycle between autotrophic > species (more stable) and heterotrophic species (less stable) in ecosystems > [Stability of species types as defined by- Yodzis and Innes Yodzis, P.; > Innes, S. Body Size and Consumer-Resource Dynamics. *Am. Nat.* 1992, *139*, > 1151]. > > > > Level 3: Social self-self-organization, involves a cycle between > kinship-based social groups (more stable) and non-kinship-based social > groups (less stable) [Stability of species types as suggested in Paper II, > based on an extension of work of Robin Dunbar and others]. > > > > At level 1 (molecular self-organiztion)- solar energy is stored in the > high-energy reduced molecules. Do you see a possibility that > living systems could store energy in cycles involving less stable species > at the two other levels (level 2, and 3) as well? (When I speak of stored > energy, I am referring to stored-energy as introduced by Mclare, > and discussed by Ulanowicz and Ho [Sustainable Systems as Organisms?, > BioSystems > 82 (2005) 39–51]. > > > > These are early thoughts and your views are much appreciated. > > Many Thanks, > > Warm regards, > > > > Nikhil Joshi > > > > > > > > > > On 01-Dec-2015, at 10:27 pm, Guy A Hoelzer <hoel...@unr.edu> wrote: > > > > Hi All, > > > > I have been following this thread with interest as much as time permits. > I think multilevel approaches to understanding information flow is an > important one. I also think the structure of natural systems exhibits both > hierarchical and heterarchical features. The hierarchies we formally > recognize can be extremely useful, but they are rarely exclusive of > alternatives. Here is a link to a paper Mark Tessera and I published a > couple of years ago arguing for one particular hierarchy of multilevel > emergence in physical systems connecting lower level physical systems to > biological systems: > > > > Tessara, M., and G. A. Hoelzer. 2013. On the thermodynamics of > multilevel evolution. Biosystems 113: 140–143. > > > > Regards, > > > > Guy > > > > Guy Hoelzer, Associate Professor > Department of Biology > University of Nevada Reno > > Phone: 775-784-4860 > Fax: 775-784-1302 > hoel...@unr.edu > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Fis mailing list > Fis@listas.unizar.es > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > >
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