Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation
I was thinking about particles with mass...:-) If anyone has an idea concerning my question thanks for the reply. I'm totally ignorant concerning deep thoughts on the nature of information. Pridi - Mail original - De: Jerry LR Chandler jerry_lr_chand...@me.com À: Foundations of Information Science of Information Science Information Information Science fis@listas.unizar.es Cc: John Collier colli...@ukzn.ac.za, Pridi Siregar pridi.sire...@ibiocomputing.com Envoyé: Dimanche 20 Juillet 2014 05:12:53 Objet: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation Pridi: Are you mixing apples with citrus fruits? Pure elastic collision are pre-suppose mass particles. Electrical particles in this context do what? Cheers Jerry On Jul 18, 2014, at 3:21 AM, Pridi Siregar wrote: Dear John and all, The limiting case of the particle collision (pure elastic collision) can be represented by a dirac impulse whose spectral content ranges over all the frequencies. I have a question: What does it mean to have a physical event with an infinite bandwith while its information content is finite ? Best Pridi - Mail original - De: John Collier colli...@ukzn.ac.za À: fis@listas.unizar.es, Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es Envoyé: Mardi 15 Juillet 2014 07:19:50 Objet: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation Dear fis members, I don't think that granularity per se is a necessary basis for the application of information theory to analog channels. In some cases it might be, and I agree that studying the relations between analog (continuous) and digital (discrete) processes is likely to be both interesting and productive. However the bandwidth of an analog channel typically can be defined even if there is no discreteness, for example if the information bearing process consists of waves so that the information bearing capacity is limited by the wavelength. Virtually all physical processes are cyclical in some way and thus have a limited bandwidth. A countercase would be a collision between particles that carries momentum from one to another. I can't think offhand right now (I just woke up), but I suspect that even in such cases there is a finite amount of information transferred. In any case, Shannon discussed the bandwidth of continuous process channels. It is worth looking at. John At 10:28 PM 2014-07-14, Srinandan Dasmahapatra wrote: I think I agree with Joseph Brenner here. Analogue computing is linked to real processes, while living beings find ways of transducing information out of dynamical states. The graininess that information theories rely on to define measures may be directly linked to physical limits in the information carriers (such as photons) or they might be limitations of the processing organism, extracting the sufficient difference that makes a difference. And yes, there's often a too hasty rush to view analogue computing through pixellated perspectives. I'm not sure if this is well known to members of this list, but Bill Bialek's biophysics text is a profound reflection of the interplay between the analogue and the digital, with selection pressure forcing the sufficiency of the grainy difference that makes a difference towards a necessity for organisms, and hence pushing sensory systems close to the physical limits of information transfer. Cheers, Sri Original message From: Joseph Brenner Date:14/07/2014 18:12 (GMT+00:00) To: Pridi Siregar ,Pedro C. Marijuan Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation Dear Colleagues, My first reaction to this suggested project is that the logic and philosophy of information (where I am more comfortable) would have little to contribute. However, analogue computation is an area in which insights from some complex theories of information might be useful. Analogue computation has always appeared to me, perhaps incorrectly, as being closer to real processes and therefore in principle better able to model their fuzzy, qualitative aspects. But in some of the articles I've seen, the authors seem almost apologetic at not being able to claim the 'power' of the digital computer . . . Best wishes, Joseph - Original Message - From: Pridi Siregar pridi.sire...@ibiocomputing.com To: Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna Thanks for the news Pedro. Sounds really exciting! As you might recall I'm interested in applications and I would be very keen on having a brainstorming session that would include pure researchers and application-oriented guys like me to explore technology transfer opportunities. I don't know if this could be part of some (possible) future agenda but I'm sure that business people may find it more than worthwile to
[Fis] Re to Pridi: infinite bandwith and finite information content
Dear Pridi, An accordance with my understanding: In physical world there exist only reflections but not information. Information “i is the quadruple: i = (s, r, e, I) where s is a source entity, which is reflected in r r is the entity in which reflection of s exists e is an evidence for the subject I which proofs for him and only for him that the reflection in r reflects just s, i.e. the evidence proofs for the subject what the reflection reflects. I is information subject who has possibility to make decisions in accordance with some goals – human, animal, bacteria, artificial intelligent system, etc. In other words, information is a reflection, but not every reflection is information – only reflections for which the quadruple above exist are assumed as information by the corresponded subjects. For different I, information may be different because of subjects’ finite memory and reflection possibilities. Because of this, a physical event with an infinite bandwidth may have finite information content (for concrete information subject). Friendly regards Krassimir -Original Message- From: Pridi Siregar Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 10:35 AM To: Jerry LR Chandler Cc: Foundations of Information Science of Information Science Information Information Science Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation I was thinking about particles with mass...:-) If anyone has an idea concerning my question thanks for the reply. I'm totally ignorant concerning deep thoughts on the nature of information. Pridi - Mail original - De: Jerry LR Chandler jerry_lr_chand...@me.com À: Foundations of Information Science of Information Science Information Information Science fis@listas.unizar.es Cc: John Collier colli...@ukzn.ac.za, Pridi Siregar pridi.sire...@ibiocomputing.com Envoyé: Dimanche 20 Juillet 2014 05:12:53 Objet: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation Pridi: Are you mixing apples with citrus fruits? Pure elastic collision are pre-suppose mass particles. Electrical particles in this context do what? Cheers Jerry On Jul 18, 2014, at 3:21 AM, Pridi Siregar wrote: Dear John and all, The limiting case of the particle collision (pure elastic collision) can be represented by a dirac impulse whose spectral content ranges over all the frequencies. I have a question: What does it mean to have a physical event with an infinite bandwith while its information content is finite ? Best Pridi - Mail original - De: John Collier colli...@ukzn.ac.za À: fis@listas.unizar.es, Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es Envoyé: Mardi 15 Juillet 2014 07:19:50 Objet: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation Dear fis members, I don't think that granularity per se is a necessary basis for the application of information theory to analog channels. In some cases it might be, and I agree that studying the relations between analog (continuous) and digital (discrete) processes is likely to be both interesting and productive. However the bandwidth of an analog channel typically can be defined even if there is no discreteness, for example if the information bearing process consists of waves so that the information bearing capacity is limited by the wavelength. Virtually all physical processes are cyclical in some way and thus have a limited bandwidth. A countercase would be a collision between particles that carries momentum from one to another. I can't think offhand right now (I just woke up), but I suspect that even in such cases there is a finite amount of information transferred. In any case, Shannon discussed the bandwidth of continuous process channels. It is worth looking at. John At 10:28 PM 2014-07-14, Srinandan Dasmahapatra wrote: I think I agree with Joseph Brenner here. Analogue computing is linked to real processes, while living beings find ways of transducing information out of dynamical states. The graininess that information theories rely on to define measures may be directly linked to physical limits in the information carriers (such as photons) or they might be limitations of the processing organism, extracting the sufficient difference that makes a difference. And yes, there's often a too hasty rush to view analogue computing through pixellated perspectives. I'm not sure if this is well known to members of this list, but Bill Bialek's biophysics text is a profound reflection of the interplay between the analogue and the digital, with selection pressure forcing the sufficiency of the grainy difference that makes a difference towards a necessity for organisms, and hence pushing sensory systems close to the physical limits of information transfer. Cheers, Sri Original message From: Joseph Brenner Date:14/07/2014 18:12 (GMT+00:00) To: Pridi Siregar ,Pedro C. Marijuan Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es Subject: Re:
Re: [Fis] Re to Pridi: infinite bandwith and finite information content
List, Karassimir: I found your definition of information to be a bit confusing because the language is a bit ambiguous to me. While the definitions of the quadruple make sense from a rhetorical sense, one notion that is missing is the concept of what is the meaning of the central reference term: physical world. For example, please show how for your definition information works for the electrical nature of the carbon atom as defined by the Rutherford/Moseley experiments, which form the base of the atomic numbers. (Carbon has the physical world definition of 6.) How would this information be symbolized? In other words, how does the concept of quantity enter into your definition? Cheers Jerry On Jul 21, 2014, at 4:40 AM, Krassimir Markov wrote: Dear Pridi, An accordance with my understanding: In physical world there exist only reflections but not information. Information “i is the quadruple: i = (s, r, e, I) where s is a source entity, which is reflected in r r is the entity in which reflection of s exists e is an evidence for the subject I which proofs for him and only for him that the reflection in r reflects just s, i.e. the evidence proofs for the subject what the reflection reflects. I is information subject who has possibility to make decisions in accordance with some goals – human, animal, bacteria, artificial intelligent system, etc. In other words, information is a reflection, but not every reflection is information – only reflections for which the quadruple above exist are assumed as information by the corresponded subjects. For different I, information may be different because of subjects’ finite memory and reflection possibilities. Because of this, a physical event with an infinite bandwidth may have finite information content (for concrete information subject). Friendly regards Krassimir -Original Message- From: Pridi Siregar Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 10:35 AM To: Jerry LR Chandler Cc: Foundations of Information Science of Information Science Information Information Science Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation I was thinking about particles with mass...:-) If anyone has an idea concerning my question thanks for the reply. I'm totally ignorant concerning deep thoughts on the nature of information. Pridi - Mail original - De: Jerry LR Chandler jerry_lr_chand...@me.com À: Foundations of Information Science of Information Science Information Information Science fis@listas.unizar.es Cc: John Collier colli...@ukzn.ac.za, Pridi Siregar pridi.sire...@ibiocomputing.com Envoyé: Dimanche 20 Juillet 2014 05:12:53 Objet: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation Pridi: Are you mixing apples with citrus fruits? Pure elastic collision are pre-suppose mass particles. Electrical particles in this context do what? Cheers Jerry On Jul 18, 2014, at 3:21 AM, Pridi Siregar wrote: Dear John and all, The limiting case of the particle collision (pure elastic collision) can be represented by a dirac impulse whose spectral content ranges over all the frequencies. I have a question: What does it mean to have a physical event with an infinite bandwith while its information content is finite ? Best Pridi - Mail original - De: John Collier colli...@ukzn.ac.za À: fis@listas.unizar.es, Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es Envoyé: Mardi 15 Juillet 2014 07:19:50 Objet: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation Dear fis members, I don't think that granularity per se is a necessary basis for the application of information theory to analog channels. In some cases it might be, and I agree that studying the relations between analog (continuous) and digital (discrete) processes is likely to be both interesting and productive. However the bandwidth of an analog channel typically can be defined even if there is no discreteness, for example if the information bearing process consists of waves so that the information bearing capacity is limited by the wavelength. Virtually all physical processes are cyclical in some way and thus have a limited bandwidth. A countercase would be a collision between particles that carries momentum from one to another. I can't think offhand right now (I just woke up), but I suspect that even in such cases there is a finite amount of information transferred. In any case, Shannon discussed the bandwidth of continuous process channels. It is worth looking at. John At 10:28 PM 2014-07-14, Srinandan Dasmahapatra wrote: I think I agree with Joseph Brenner here. Analogue computing is linked to real processes, while living beings find ways of transducing information out of dynamical states. The graininess that information theories rely on to define measures may be directly linked to
Re: [Fis] Re to Pridi: infinite bandwith and finite information content - Information content of Atomic Numbers
List, Krassimir: (I have posted Krassimir's response below, since it may not have been distributed to the list.) My question was not a metaphysical question about materiality, my body and other such philosophical question of import. Rather, it is direct question about the sufficiency of the rhetoric of the proposal to define a theory of information. The response saids: Atom has no number in the reality, it has one in any information quadruple. The physical, material concept of order is the empirical ground for enumerations of physical chemistry. The concept of atomic number is central to elemental quantum mechanics as well as atomic table of elements as well as molecular biology and of course, the practice of medicine itself. To assert that Atom has no number in the reality is a denial of physical reality, is it not? By logical extension, if Atom has no number in the reality, then the material world has no reality. And: If the material world has no reality, the proposed definition of information is self-contradictory. This suggests to me that the proposed definition may need to altered to avoid the implication of self-contradiction. Cheers Jerry Dear Jery, Thank you for interesting remark. Physical world means all material reality. A special case of it are living creatures. Your example is good for discussion – somewhere the Rutherford/Moseley experiments had been reflected to be further analyzed, i.e. we have information quadruple including scientists who assign atomic numbers. Atom has no number in the reality, it has one in any information quadruple. Of course, here we have very long chain of reflections and corresponded quadruples. Ideal entities are reflections (information) in our brain and are so material as we are. This is long story about information models ... including your example ... Friendly regards Krassimir On Jul 21, 2014, at 12:33 PM, Jerry LR Chandler wrote: List, Karassimir: I found your definition of information to be a bit confusing because the language is a bit ambiguous to me. While the definitions of the quadruple make sense from a rhetorical sense, one notion that is missing is the concept of what is the meaning of the central reference term: physical world. For example, please show how for your definition information works for the electrical nature of the carbon atom as defined by the Rutherford/Moseley experiments, which form the base of the atomic numbers. (Carbon has the physical world definition of 6.) How would this information be symbolized? In other words, how does the concept of quantity enter into your definition? Cheers Jerry On Jul 21, 2014, at 4:40 AM, Krassimir Markov wrote: Dear Pridi, An accordance with my understanding: In physical world there exist only reflections but not information. Information “i is the quadruple: i = (s, r, e, I) where s is a source entity, which is reflected in r r is the entity in which reflection of s exists e is an evidence for the subject I which proofs for him and only for him that the reflection in r reflects just s, i.e. the evidence proofs for the subject what the reflection reflects. I is information subject who has possibility to make decisions in accordance with some goals – human, animal, bacteria, artificial intelligent system, etc. In other words, information is a reflection, but not every reflection is information – only reflections for which the quadruple above exist are assumed as information by the corresponded subjects. For different I, information may be different because of subjects’ finite memory and reflection possibilities. Because of this, a physical event with an infinite bandwidth may have finite information content (for concrete information subject). Friendly regards Krassimir -Original Message- From: Pridi Siregar Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 10:35 AM To: Jerry LR Chandler Cc: Foundations of Information Science of Information Science Information Information Science Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation I was thinking about particles with mass...:-) If anyone has an idea concerning my question thanks for the reply. I'm totally ignorant concerning deep thoughts on the nature of information. Pridi - Mail original - De: Jerry LR Chandler jerry_lr_chand...@me.com À: Foundations of Information Science of Information Science Information Information Science fis@listas.unizar.es Cc: John Collier colli...@ukzn.ac.za, Pridi Siregar pridi.sire...@ibiocomputing.com Envoyé: Dimanche 20 Juillet 2014 05:12:53 Objet: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation Pridi: Are you mixing apples with citrus fruits? Pure elastic collision are pre-suppose mass particles. Electrical particles in this context do what? Cheers Jerry On Jul 18, 2014, at 3:21 AM, Pridi Siregar
Re: [Fis] Re to Pridi: infinite bandwith and finite informationcontent - Information content of Atomic Numbers
Dear Jerry and Colleagues, Thank you for the interesting comments. Yes, the physical, material concept of order is the empirical ground for enumerations of physical chemistry. But only on the human level, on the level of science, which is a kind of reflection of reality. I.e. we have quadruple where Information subject is a very complex social system (science) and the other entities of the quadruple are complex, too. Let remember the example – Carbon has the physical world definition of 6 – what means this? For the not specialists this has no meaning – they need evidence what it reflects, at least corresponded definition. I.e. one needs to configure the quadruple to receive any information. Friendly regards Krassimir From: Jerry LR Chandler Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 10:34 PM To: FIS Information Science Cc: Krassimir Markov Subject: Re: [Fis] Re to Pridi: infinite bandwith and finite informationcontent - Information content of Atomic Numbers List, Krassimir: (I have posted Krassimir's response below, since it may not have been distributed to the list.) My question was not a metaphysical question about materiality, my body and other such philosophical question of import. Rather, it is direct question about the sufficiency of the rhetoric of the proposal to define a theory of information. The response saids: Atom has no number in the reality, it has one in any information quadruple. The physical, material concept of order is the empirical ground for enumerations of physical chemistry. The concept of atomic number is central to elemental quantum mechanics as well as atomic table of elements as well as molecular biology and of course, the practice of medicine itself. To assert that Atom has no number in the reality is a denial of physical reality, is it not? By logical extension, if Atom has no number in the reality, then the material world has no reality. And: If the material world has no reality, the proposed definition of information is self-contradictory. This suggests to me that the proposed definition may need to altered to avoid the implication of self-contradiction. Cheers Jerry Dear Jery, Thank you for interesting remark. Physical world means all material reality. A special case of it are living creatures. Your example is good for discussion – somewhere the Rutherford/Moseley experiments had been reflected to be further analyzed, i.e. we have information quadruple including scientists who assign atomic numbers. Atom has no number in the reality, it has one in any information quadruple. Of course, here we have very long chain of reflections and corresponded quadruples. Ideal entities are reflections (information) in our brain and are so material as we are. This is long story about information models ... including your example ... Friendly regards Krassimir On Jul 21, 2014, at 12:33 PM, Jerry LR Chandler wrote: List, Karassimir: I found your definition of information to be a bit confusing because the language is a bit ambiguous to me. While the definitions of the quadruple make sense from a rhetorical sense, one notion that is missing is the concept of what is the meaning of the central reference term: physical world. For example, please show how for your definition information works for the electrical nature of the carbon atom as defined by the Rutherford/Moseley experiments, which form the base of the atomic numbers. (Carbon has the physical world definition of 6.) How would this information be symbolized? In other words, how does the concept of quantity enter into your definition? Cheers Jerry On Jul 21, 2014, at 4:40 AM, Krassimir Markov wrote: Dear Pridi, An accordance with my understanding: In physical world there exist only reflections but not information. Information “i is the quadruple: i = (s, r, e, I) where s is a source entity, which is reflected in r r is the entity in which reflection of s exists e is an evidence for the subject I which proofs for him and only for him that the reflection in r reflects just s, i.e. the evidence proofs for the subject what the reflection reflects. I is information subject who has possibility to make decisions in accordance with some goals – human, animal, bacteria, artificial intelligent system, etc. In other words, information is a reflection, but not every reflection is information – only reflections for which the quadruple above exist are assumed as information by the corresponded subjects. For different I, information may be different because of subjects’ finite memory and reflection possibilities. Because of this, a physical event with an infinite bandwidth may have finite information content (for concrete information subject). Friendly regards Krassimir -Original Message- From: Pridi Siregar Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 10:35 AM
