Re: [Fis] Physical Informatics… (J.Brenner)

2014-10-20 Thread Bob Logan
Dear all - my take on this post is that the question of whether physical 
processes are information is like the question: Is there a sound if a tree 
falls in the forest and no one is there to listen? This is like the Zen koan: 
what is the sound of one hand clapping If no one is in the forest are the 
trees information? Well for sure they are trees but as to whether or not they 
are information that is strictly dependent on the point of view of the 
respondent. For me they are just trees and here is why I think so. For me 
information is about a process. The noun information relates to the verb 
inform. If no one is being informed there is no information. In the same way 
that if no one or thing is there being loved (verb) their is no love (noun). If 
no one is engaged in the activity of loving (a verb) there is no love (a noun). 
If there is no one being informed (a verb) then there is no information (a 
noun). Now one can talk about an object or a phenomenon having the possibility 
of informing someone which to my mind is potential information which is what I 
would call the physical processes that take place in our universe. A book 
written in Urdu is potential information because an Urdu reader can be informed 
by it. For me as a non-Urdu speaker there is very little information other than 
someone went to the trouble of writing out a text with Urdu letters and hence 
there is probably information there for an Urdu speaker reasoning why would any 
one make the effort to create such an object unless that person wanted to 
inform Urdu speakers. Just as one person's food is another person's poison so 
it is that one person's information is just for another persons merely a 
physical phenomenon such as processes in nature, ink on paper, sounds or EM 
signals. Shannon developed a theory of signals in which some of those signals 
have the ability to inform some recipients. I hope this collection of words has 
informed you other than giving you the knowledge of my view as to what 
constitutes information. Thanks to Joseph, Pedro, and Igor for the opportunity 
to reflect on the nature of information. If you enjoyed my post and would like 
to learn more about my views on information please send me an email off line 
and I will send you an email version of my book What is Information?  
Propagating Organization in the Biosphere, the Symbolosphere, the Technosphere 
and the Econosphere  for free. And now you know what an infomercial is. This 
was an infomercial because of my offer to share my book with you erudite 
scholars of FIS whose posts I always enjoy. With kind regards - Bob
__

Robert K. Logan
Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto 
Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD
http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan
www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan
www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications








On 2014-10-20, at 1:57 PM, PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN FERNANDEZ wrote:

 
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Joseph Brenner
 To: Igor Gurevich ; Pedro C. Marijuan ; fis
 Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 8:40 AM
 Subject: Re: [Fis] Physical Informatics contains fundamental results which 
 impossible to get only by physical methods
 
 Dear Igor, Dear Gerhard and Colleagues,
  
 In Igor's summary of his recent work, I read the following absoutely critical 
 statement:
  It is shown that the expansion of the Universe is the source of information 
 formation, wherein a variety of physical processes in an expanding Universe 
 provide information formation. I take this as meaning that the expansion of 
 the Universe as such does not produce information. 
  
 Gerhard's formulation is slightly different (my paraphrase):
 The first assymetry in energy distribution, following the singularity, is 
 the source of information formation.
  
 My question is, therefore, how best to combine these insights. For example, 
 we may say that the variety of physical processes are all the consequence of, 
 and subsequently reflect, a first assymetry.
  
 It is also interesting to note that the approaches of both Igor and Gerhard 
 imply the emergence of information through the interactional impact 
 (informational interactions) of fundamental forces on particles, extended by 
 Gerhard to somewhat higher levels of organization (life) than Igor.  
  
 I look forward to further discussion of these fundamental issues.
  
 Sincerely,
  
 Joseph
 - Original Message -
 From: Igor Gurevich
 To: Pedro C. Marijuan ; fis
 Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2014 9:47 AM
 Subject: [Fis] Physical Informatics contains fundamental results which 
 impossible to get only by physical methods
 
 Dear Pedro C. Marijuan,
 Dear colleagues,
 I send you The main results of Gurevich I.M. (Physical Informatics contains 
 fundamental results which impossible to get only by physical methods) 
 and Igor Gurevich: Main publications in English . 
 With best wishes.
 Igor Gurevich
 
 
 
 ___
 

Re: [Fis] Physical Informatics… (J.Brenner)

2014-10-20 Thread Stanley N Salthe
Bob -- I think the viewpoint on information being expressed by Gerhard is
that which sees information to be embodied in configuration/conformation.
If a configured entity is in the world it necessarily will encounter other
configurations/conformations which will result in an 'interpretation' by
both parties.

STAN

On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 2:53 PM, Bob Logan lo...@physics.utoronto.ca
wrote:

 Dear all - my take on this post is that the question of whether physical
 processes are information is like the question: Is there a sound if a tree
 falls in the forest and no one is there to listen? This is like the Zen
 koan: what is the sound of one hand clapping If no one is in the forest
 are the trees information? Well for sure they are trees but as to whether
 or not they are information that is strictly dependent on the point of view
 of the respondent. For me they are just trees and here is why I think so.
 For me information is about a process. The noun information relates to the
 verb inform. If no one is being informed there is no information. In the
 same way that if no one or thing is there being loved (verb) their is no
 love (noun). If no one is engaged in the activity of loving (a verb) there
 is no love (a noun). If there is no one being informed (a verb) then there
 is no information (a noun). Now one can talk about an object or a
 phenomenon having the possibility of informing someone which to my mind is
 potential information which is what I would call the physical processes
 that take place in our universe. A book written in Urdu is potential
 information because an Urdu reader can be informed by it. For me as a
 non-Urdu speaker there is very little information other than someone went
 to the trouble of writing out a text with Urdu letters and hence there is
 probably information there for an Urdu speaker reasoning why would any one
 make the effort to create such an object unless that person wanted to
 inform Urdu speakers. Just as one person's food is another person's poison
 so it is that one person's information is just for another persons merely a
 physical phenomenon such as processes in nature, ink on paper, sounds or EM
 signals. Shannon developed a theory of signals in which some of those
 signals have the ability to inform some recipients. I hope this collection
 of words has informed you other than giving you the knowledge of my view as
 to what constitutes information. Thanks to Joseph, Pedro, and Igor for the
 opportunity to reflect on the nature of information. If you enjoyed my post
 and would like to learn more about my views on information please send me
 an email off line and I will send you an email version of my book *What
 is Information?  Propagating Organization in the Biosphere, the
 Symbolosphere, the Technosphere and the Econosphere * for free. And now
 you know what an infomercial is. This was an infomercial because of my
 offer to share my book with you erudite scholars of FIS whose posts I
 always enjoy. With kind regards - Bob
 __

 Robert K. Logan
 Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto
 Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD
 http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan
 www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan
 www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications








 On 2014-10-20, at 1:57 PM, PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN FERNANDEZ wrote:



 - Original Message -
 *From:* Joseph Brenner joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
 *To:* Igor Gurevich iggurev...@gmail.com ; Pedro C. Marijuan
 pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es ; fis fis@listas.unizar.es
 *Sent:* Monday, October 20, 2014 8:40 AM
 *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Physical Informatics contains fundamental results
 which impossible to get only by physical methods

 Dear Igor, Dear Gerhard and Colleagues,

 In Igor's summary of his recent work, I read the following absoutely
 critical statement:
  It is shown that the expansion of the Universe is the source of
 information formation, wherein a variety of physical processes in an
 expanding Universe provide information formation. I take this as meaning
 that the expansion of the Universe as such does not produce information.

 Gerhard's formulation is slightly different (my paraphrase):
 The first assymetry in energy distribution, following the singularity, is
 the source of information formation.

 My question is, therefore, how best to combine these insights. For
 example, we may say that the variety of physical processes are all the
 consequence of, and subsequently reflect, a first assymetry.

 It is also interesting to note that the approaches of both Igor and
 Gerhard imply the emergence of information through the interactional impact
 (informational interactions) of fundamental forces on particles, extended
 by Gerhard to somewhat higher levels of organization (life) than Igor.

 I look forward to further discussion of these fundamental issues.

 Sincerely,

 Joseph

 - Original Message -
 *From:* Igor Gurevich iggurev...@gmail.com
 *To:* Pedro C. Marijuan 

Re: [Fis] Physical Informatics… (J.Brenner)

2014-10-20 Thread Robert E. Ulanowicz
Dear Bob,

What you are saying is the obverse of the third law of thermodynamics. The
third law says that entropy (viz., disorder) can only be measured with
respect to some reference condition. Since information is the complement
of entropy in Bayesian informatics, then the obverse becomes, Information
can only be measured with respect to some reference state. (It may be the
same one used for pin down entropy.) Changing the reference state changes
the values for both information and entropy.

I tried elaborating those relationships in my FIS paper
http://people.biology.ufl.edu/ulan/pubs/FISPAP.pdf.

The best,
Bob U.

 Dear all - my take on this post is that the question of whether physical
 processes are information is like the question: Is there a sound if a tree
 falls in the forest and no one is there to listen? This is like the Zen
 koan: what is the sound of one hand clapping If no one is in the forest
 are the trees information? Well for sure they are trees but as to whether
 or not they are information that is strictly dependent on the point of
 view of the respondent. For me they are just trees and here is why I think
 so. For me information is about a process. The noun information relates to
 the verb inform. If no one is being informed there is no information. In
 the same way that if no one or thing is there being loved (verb) their is
 no love (noun). If no one is engaged in the activity of loving (a verb)
 there is no love (a noun). If there is no one being informed (a verb) then
 there is no information (a noun). Now one can talk about an object or a
 phenomenon having the possibility of informing someone which to my mind is
 potential information which is what I would call the physical processes
 that take place in our universe. A book written in Urdu is potential
 information because an Urdu reader can be informed by it. For me as a
 non-Urdu speaker there is very little information other than someone went
 to the trouble of writing out a text with Urdu letters and hence there is
 probably information there for an Urdu speaker reasoning why would any one
 make the effort to create such an object unless that person wanted to
 inform Urdu speakers. Just as one person's food is another person's poison
 so it is that one person's information is just for another persons merely
 a physical phenomenon such as processes in nature, ink on paper, sounds or
 EM signals. Shannon developed a theory of signals in which some of those
 signals have the ability to inform some recipients. I hope this collection
 of words has informed you other than giving you the knowledge of my view
 as to what constitutes information. Thanks to Joseph, Pedro, and Igor for
 the opportunity to reflect on the nature of information. If you enjoyed my
 post and would like to learn more about my views on information please
 send me an email off line and I will send you an email version of my book
 What is Information?  Propagating Organization in the Biosphere, the
 Symbolosphere, the Technosphere and the Econosphere  for free. And now you
 know what an infomercial is. This was an infomercial because of my offer
 to share my book with you erudite scholars of FIS whose posts I always
 enjoy. With kind regards - Bob
 __

 Robert K. Logan
 Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto
 Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD
 http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan
 www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan
 www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications








 On 2014-10-20, at 1:57 PM, PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN FERNANDEZ wrote:



 - Original Message -
 From: Joseph Brenner
 To: Igor Gurevich ; Pedro C. Marijuan ; fis
 Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 8:40 AM
 Subject: Re: [Fis] Physical Informatics contains fundamental results
 which impossible to get only by physical methods

 Dear Igor, Dear Gerhard and Colleagues,

 In Igor's summary of his recent work, I read the following absoutely
 critical statement:
  It is shown that the expansion of the Universe is the source of
 information formation, wherein a variety of physical processes in an
 expanding Universe provide information formation. I take this as
 meaning that the expansion of the Universe as such does not produce
 information.

 Gerhard's formulation is slightly different (my paraphrase):
 The first assymetry in energy distribution, following the singularity,
 is the source of information formation.

 My question is, therefore, how best to combine these insights. For
 example, we may say that the variety of physical processes are all the
 consequence of, and subsequently reflect, a first assymetry.

 It is also interesting to note that the approaches of both Igor and
 Gerhard imply the emergence of information through the interactional
 impact (informational interactions) of fundamental forces on particles,
 extended by Gerhard to somewhat higher levels of organization (life)
 than Igor.

 I look forward to further discussion of these fundamental 

Re: [Fis] Physical Informatics… (J.Brenner)

2014-10-20 Thread Joseph Brenner
Dear Bob,

 

This is not wasted time or space. At their beginning, there was something 
moving, call it ‘It’, that led to trees and us. Today, there is something in 
us, call it ‘It’, that leads to love. This It became and now becomes us. Am I 
to blame that I to try to understand It, from the beginning, as information?

 

Please do send me an E-mail copy of the latest version of your book. The one I 
have is dated December 9, 2011.

 

Best,

 

Joseph

  - Original Message - 
  From: Bob Logan 
  To: PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN FERNANDEZ ; fis ; Joseph Brenner 
  Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 8:53 PM
  Subject: Re: [Fis] Physical Informatics… (J.Brenner)


  Dear all - my take on this post is that the question of whether physical 
processes are information is like the question: Is there a sound if a tree 
falls in the forest and no one is there to listen? This is like the Zen koan: 
what is the sound of one hand clapping If no one is in the forest are the 
trees information? Well for sure they are trees but as to whether or not they 
are information that is strictly dependent on the point of view of the 
respondent. For me they are just trees and here is why I think so. For me 
information is about a process. The noun information relates to the verb 
inform. If no one is being informed there is no information. In the same way 
that if no one or thing is there being loved (verb) their is no love (noun). If 
no one is engaged in the activity of loving (a verb) there is no love (a noun). 
If there is no one being informed (a verb) then there is no information (a 
noun). Now one can talk about an object or a phenomenon having the possibility 
of informing someone which to my mind is potential information which is what I 
would call the physical processes that take place in our universe. A book 
written in Urdu is potential information because an Urdu reader can be informed 
by it. For me as a non-Urdu speaker there is very little information other than 
someone went to the trouble of writing out a text with Urdu letters and hence 
there is probably information there for an Urdu speaker reasoning why would any 
one make the effort to create such an object unless that person wanted to 
inform Urdu speakers. Just as one person's food is another person's poison so 
it is that one person's information is just for another persons merely a 
physical phenomenon such as processes in nature, ink on paper, sounds or EM 
signals. Shannon developed a theory of signals in which some of those signals 
have the ability to inform some recipients. I hope this collection of words has 
informed you other than giving you the knowledge of my view as to what 
constitutes information. Thanks to Joseph, Pedro, and Igor for the opportunity 
to reflect on the nature of information. If you enjoyed my post and would like 
to learn more about my views on information please send me an email off line 
and I will send you an email version of my book What is Information?  
Propagating Organization in the Biosphere, the Symbolosphere, the Technosphere 
and the Econosphere  for free. And now you know what an infomercial is. This 
was an infomercial because of my offer to share my book with you erudite 
scholars of FIS whose posts I always enjoy. With kind regards - Bob

  __


  Robert K. Logan
  Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto 
  Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD
  http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan
  www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan
  www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications
















  On 2014-10-20, at 1:57 PM, PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN FERNANDEZ wrote:





- Original Message -
From: Joseph Brenner
To: Igor Gurevich ; Pedro C. Marijuan ; fis
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 8:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Fis] Physical Informatics contains fundamental results which 
impossible to get only by physical methods


Dear Igor, Dear Gerhard and Colleagues,

In Igor's summary of his recent work, I read the following absoutely 
critical statement:
 It is shown that the expansion of the Universe is the source of 
information formation, wherein a variety of physical processes in an expanding 
Universe provide information formation. I take this as meaning that the 
expansion of the Universe as such does not produce information. 

Gerhard's formulation is slightly different (my paraphrase):
The first assymetry in energy distribution, following the singularity, is 
the source of information formation.

My question is, therefore, how best to combine these insights. For example, 
we may say that the variety of physical processes are all the consequence of, 
and subsequently reflect, a first assymetry.

It is also interesting to note that the approaches of both Igor and Gerhard 
imply the emergence of information through the interactional impact 
(informational interactions) of fundamental forces on particles, extended by 
Gerhard to somewhat 

Re: [Fis] FIS 2015, Workshop on Combinatorics of Genetics, Fundamentals

2014-10-20 Thread Jerry LR Chandler
List:

Their exist many forms of formal logics. 

One of the several concepts important to logic is an ancient concept:

If antecedents, then consequences.

In recent decades, the concept of para-consistent logic has emerged.
It has found many applications, particularly in the cybernetics of control 
systems.

Para-consistent logics are tolerant of apparent or so-called inconsistencies 
among several premisses.

Para-consistent logics are worth studying as they motivate consequences from 
antecedents.  One key author is Graham Priest.

One of the principle questions that para-consistent logics raise is How does 
one compose premisses?  not necessary dependent on the geometric metrics rules 
of a  line.

Cheers

Jerry



 
On Oct 20, 2014, at 6:44 AM, Karl Javorszky wrote:

 Workshop on the Combinatorics of Genetics, Fundamentals
 
  
 In order to prepare for a fruitful, satisfying and rewarding workshop in 
 Vienna, let me offer to potential participants the following main innovations 
 in the field of formal logic and arithmetic:
 
 
 
 1)  Consolidating contradictions:
 
 The idea of contradicting logical statements is traditionally alien to the 
 system of thoughts that is mathematics. Therefore, no methodology has evolved 
 of appeasing, soothing, compromise-building among equally valid logical 
 statements that contradict each other. In this regard, mathematical logic is 
 far less advanced than diplomacy, psychology, commercial claims regulation or 
 military science, in which fields the existence of conflicts is a given. The 
 workshop centers around the methodology of fulfilling contradicting logical 
 requirements that co- exist.
 
 
 
 2)  Concept of Order
 
 We show that the pointed opposition between readings of a set once as a 
 sequenced one and once as a commutative one is similar to the discussion, 
 whether a Table of the Rorschach test depicts a still-life under water or 
 rather fireworks in Paris. The incompatibility between sequenced and 
 commutative (contemporaneous) is provided by our sensory apparatus: in fact, 
 a set is readable both as a sequenced collection and as a collection of 
 commutative symbols. We abstract from the two sentences “Set A is in a 
 sequential order” and “Set A is a commutatively ordered one” into the 
 sentence “Set A is in order”.
 
 The workshop introduces the idea and the technique of sequential enumeration 
 (aka “sorting”) of elements of a set, calling the result “order”, and shows 
 that different sorting orders may bring forth contradicting assignments of 
 places to one and the same element, resp. contradicting assignments of 
 elements to one and the same place.
 
 
 
 3)  The duration of the transient state
 
 We put forward the motion, that it is reasonable to assume that a set is 
 normally in a state of permanent change – as opposed to the traditional view, 
 wherein a set, once well defined, stays put and idle, remaining such as 
 defined. The idea is that there are always alternatives to whichever order 
 one looks into a set, therefore it is reasonable to assume that the set is in 
 a state of permanent adjustment.
 
 We look in great detail into the mechanics of transition between Order αβ and 
 Order γδ, and show that the number of tics until the transition is achieved 
 is only in the rarest of cases uniform, therefore partial transformations and 
 half-baked results are the ordre du jour.
 
 
 
 4)  Standard transitions and spatial structures
 
 The rare cases where a translation from Order αβ into Order γδ happens in 
 lock-step are quite well suited to serve as units of dis-allocation, being of 
 uniform properties with respect to a numeric quality which could well be 
 called an extent for “mass”.
 
 These cases allow assembling two 3-dimensional spatial structures with 
 well-defined axes. The twice 3 axes can even be merged into one, consolidated 
 space with 3 common axes, the price of the consolidation being that every 
 1-dimensional statement has in this case 4 variants. The findings allow 
 supporting Minkowski’s ideas and also some contemplation about 3 
 sub-statements consisting of 1-of-4 variants, as used by Nature while 
 registering genetic information in a purely sequenced fashion.
 
 
 
 5)  Size optimization and asynchronicity questions
 
 The set is the same, whether we read it consecutively or transversally. The 
 readings differ. We show that the functions of logical relations’ density per 
 unit resp. unit fragment size per logical relation are intertwined, making a 
 change between the representations of order as unit and as logical relation a 
 matter of accounting artistry. (“If I want more matter, I say that I see 66 
 commutative units; if I want more information, I say that I see 11 sequences 
 of 6 units.”)
 
 The phlogiston (or divine will) fueling the mechanism appears to be the 
 synchronicity of steps of order consolidation happening. Using the concept of 
 a-synchronicity we can