### Re: [Fis] Is information physical?

```Dear Mark,
Thank you for suggesting this topic.
I concur wholeheartedly with your stand on this matter.
Information in the sense that you indicate
is pattern that is independent of the particular substrate on which it is
‘carried’.

There is a persistent myth in popular scientific culture that mathematics and
the physical are identical.
Just as information is not physical, neither is mathematics.
Each mathematical structure is recognizable as mathematics in that it is
strictly relational and quite independent of the medium in which it is
expressed.

The example of mathematics as information independent of substrate
is an opening for exploring more deeply the nature of information. For we are
all aware
of the remarkable interplay of mathematics and the quantitative and structural
understanding of the physical.

I suspect that the end result of that exploration will be for us to admit that
we do not know know what is physical,
that we can deny that information is not physical.

The crux of the matter (sic)
lies in the distinction made between the physical and the non-physical.
There is such a distinction.
The boundary of that distinction is unknown territory.
Very best,
Lou Kauffman

> On Apr 24, 2018, at 8:47 PM, Burgin, Mark  wrote:
>
> Dear Colleagues,
>
> I would like to suggest the new topic for discussion
>
>   Is information physical?
>
> My opinion is presented below:
>
>
>
>Why some people erroneously think that information is physical
>
>The main reason to think that information is physical is the strong belief
> of many people, especially, scientists that there is only physical reality,
> which is studied by science. At the same time, people encounter something
> that they call information.
>When people receive a letter, they comprehend that it is information
> because with the letter they receive information. The letter is physical,
> i.e., a physical object. As a result, people start thinking that information
> is physical. When people receive an e-mail, they comprehend that it is
> information because with the e-mail they receive information. The e-mail
> comes to the computer in the form of electromagnetic waves, which are
> physical. As a result, people start thinking even more that information is
> physical.
>However, letters, electromagnetic waves and actually all physical objects
> are only carriers or containers of information.
>To understand this better, let us consider a textbook. Is possible to say
> that this book is knowledge? Any reasonable person will tell that the
> textbook contains knowledge but is not knowledge itself. In the same way, the
> textbook contains information but is not information itself. The same is true
> for letters, e-mails, electromagnetic waves and other physical objects
> because all of them only contain information but are not information. For
> instance, as we know, different letters can contain the same information.
> Even if we make an identical copy of a letter or any other text, then the
> letter and its copy will be different physical objects (physical things) but
> they will contain the same information.
>Information belongs to a different (non-physical) world of knowledge, data
> and similar essences. In spite of this, information can act on physical
> objects (physical bodies) and this action also misleads people who think that
> information is physical.
>One more misleading property of information is that people can measure it.
> This brings an erroneous assumption that it is possible to measure only
> physical essences. Naturally, this brings people to the erroneous conclusion
> that information is physical. However, measuring information is essentially
> different than measuring physical quantities, i.e., weight. There are no
> “scales” that measure information. Only human intellect can do this.
>It is possible to find more explanations that information is not physical
> in the general theory of information.
>
> Sincerely,
> Mark Burgin
>
>
> On 4/24/2018 10:46 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan wrote:
>> Dear FIS Colleagues,
>>
>> A very interesting discussion theme has been proposed by Mark Burgin --he
>> will post at his early convenience.
>> Thanks are due to Alberto for his "dataism" piece. Quite probably we will
>> need to revisit that theme, as it is gaining increasing momentum in present
>> "information societies", in science as well as in everyday life...
>> Thanks also to Sung for his interesting viewpoint and references.
>>
>> Best wishes to all,
>> --Pedro
>>
>>
>> -
>> Pedro C. Marijuán
>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>> pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
>>
>> ```

### Re: [Fis] Is information physical?

```
Dear Colleagues,

I would like to suggest the new topic for discussion

Is information physical?

My opinion is presented below:

Why some people erroneously think that information is physical

The main reason to think that information is physical is the strong
belief of many people, especially, scientists that there is only
physical reality, which is studied by science. At the same time, people
encounter something that they call information.

When people receive a letter, they comprehend that it is information
because with the letter they receive information. The letter is
physical, i.e., a physical object. As a result, people start thinking
that information is physical. When people receive an e-mail, they
comprehend that it is information because with the e-mail they receive
information. The e-mail comes to the computer in the form of
electromagnetic waves, which are physical. As a result, people start
thinking even more that information is physical.

However, letters, electromagnetic waves and actually all physical
objects are only carriers or containers of information.

To understand this better, let us consider a textbook. Is possible to
say that this book is knowledge? Any reasonable person will tell that
the textbook contains knowledge but is not knowledge itself. In the same
way, the textbook contains information but is not information itself.
The same is true for letters, e-mails, electromagnetic waves and other
physical objects because all of them only contain information but are
not information. For instance, as we know, different letters can contain
the same information. Even if we make an identical copy of a letter or
any other text, then the letter and its copy will be different physical
objects (physical things) but they will contain the same information.

Information belongs to a different (non-physical) world of knowledge,
data and similar essences. In spite of this, information can act on
physical objects (physical bodies) and this action also misleads people
who think that information is physical.

One more misleading property of information is that people can measure
it. This brings an erroneous assumption that it is possible to measure
only physical essences. Naturally, this brings people to the erroneous
conclusion that information is physical. However, measuring information
is essentially different than measuring physical quantities, i.e.,
weight. There are no “scales” that measure information. Only human
intellect can do this.

It is possible to find more explanations that information is not
physical in the general theory of information.

Sincerely,
Mark Burgin

On 4/24/2018 10:46 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan wrote:

Dear FIS Colleagues,

A very interesting discussion theme has been proposed by Mark Burgin
--he will post at his early convenience.
Thanks are due to Alberto for his "dataism" piece. Quite probably we
will need to revisit that theme, as it is gaining increasing momentum
in present "information societies", in science as well as in everyday
life...

Thanks also to Sung for his interesting viewpoint and references.

Best wishes to all,
--Pedro

-

Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
-

Libre de virus. www.avast.com

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### [Fis] TOWARDS A NEW SESSION

```
Dear FIS Colleagues,

A very interesting discussion theme has been proposed by Mark Burgin
--he will post at his early convenience.
Thanks are due to Alberto for his "dataism" piece. Quite probably we
will need to revisit that theme, as it is gaining increasing momentum in
present "information societies", in science as well as in everyday life...

Thanks also to Sung for his interesting viewpoint and references.

Best wishes to all,
--Pedro

-

Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
-

---
El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de
virus.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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```