Re: [Fis] POSTS ON TERRY' S BOOK

[Stanley N Salthe]

Not only among fis. I can tell you that it is very well written.  As far as
I have read (1/3), it goes over what (I suppose) we all (me anyhow) know
already, but with a spin of great rhetoric.  Perhaps it acts as a focus.

STAN

On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 4:39 PM, Hector Zenil  wrote:

> Could someone summarize why Terrence Deacon's book is such a presumed
> breakthrough judging by the buzz it has generated among FIS
> enthusiasts?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 11:09 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan
>  wrote:
> > Dear colleagues,
> >
> > Krassimir Markov's suggestion is excellent. Next year we could have a
> > FIS conference in his place, centered in the exploration of the new info
> > avenue drafted by Terrence Deacon's book, and started by Stuart Kauffman
> > and others. Previously my suggestion is that we have a regular
> > discussion session (like the many ones had in this list). A couple of
> > voluntary chairs, and an opening text would be needed. Sure Bob Logan
> > could handle this (perhaps off list) and we would have a fresh
> > discussion session for the coming months.
> >
> > Technical Note: the current messages are not entering in the list; the
> > filter is rejecting them as there are too many addresses together.
> > Please, send the fis address single, and all the others separated or as
> > as Cc. Otherwise I will have to enter them one by one.
> >
> > best
> >
> > ---Pedro
> > (fis list coordination)
> >
> > -
> > Pedro C. Marijuán
> > Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
> > Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
> > Avda. Gómez Laguna, 25, Pl. 11ª
> > 50009 Zaragoza, Spain
> > Telf: 34 976 71 3526 (& 6818) Fax: 34 976 71 5554
> > pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
> > http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
> > -
> >
> >
> > ___
> > fis mailing list
> > fis@listas.unizar.es
> > https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>
> ___
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> fis@listas.unizar.es
> https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>
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[Fis] Fwd: Re: POSTS ON TERRY' S BOOK

[Robert Ulanowicz]

Dear Steven, Hector:

As I have mentioned on FIS before, I'm somewhat retrograde in that I  
don't see algorithmic information as much of an advance on Shannon.

The true irony here is that Terry mentions and then immediately  
dismisses Shannon information, when it is the only expression of  
information that leads to a combined apodictic/apophatic treatment of  
the subject. Algorithmic measures address solely the apodictic and  
completely miss the central point of Terry's thesis. I have mentioned  
this to Terry, but he has much more on his mind these days.

Cheers,
Bob

-
Robert E. Ulanowicz|  Tel: +1-352-378-7355
Arthur R. Marshall Laboratory  |  FAX: +1-352-392-3704
Department of Biology  |  Emeritus, Chesapeake Biological Lab
Bartram Hall 110   |  University of Maryland
University of Florida  |  Email 
Gainesville, FL 32611-8525 USA |  Web 
--

I have mentioned my

 Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 14:32:07 -0700
 From: Steven Ericsson-Zenith 
  Subject: Re: [Fis] POSTS ON TERRY' S BOOK
   To: Hector Zenil 
   Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es

Dear Hector,

What, exactly, is your objection to it? It's anti-reductionism (that I  
would object to also) or it's claim that Turing computation is  
insufficient (to which I have no objection)?

With respect,
Steven


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Re: [Fis] POSTS ON TERRY' S BOOK

[Hector Zenil]

Steven,

More than an objection I wanted to understand what the book was being
credited for. But yes, a book that is credited to advance the field of
information and overlooks to talk about Turing computation I think
should be considered, at least, incomplete (perhaps intended along the
lines of the book's title).

Moreover, if the author ignores the progress (even if he, you or me
may not agree on whether Turing computation may or may not capture in
full or a part of what information may be), then I think one is
missing not only part of the story but perhaps the most important part
of the story after Shannon.

But I'm not assuming that Deacon ignores the topic, but that his
intention was a complete change of direction. But then I find
contradictory to credit Shannon with such a status in his approach,
and then ignore everything else in the process to take an opposite
direction. But as I also said, I think he never intended to contribute
to the field of information, but that his approach to information is
accessory to his main goal: the point of his "incomplete nature".

Sincerely,

Hector


On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 10:32 PM, Steven Ericsson-Zenith  wrote:
> Dear Hector,
>
> What, exactly, is your objection to it? It's anti-reductionism (that I would 
> object to also) or it's claim that Turing computation is insufficient (to 
> which I have no objection)?
>
> With respect,
> Steven
>
> --
>        Dr. Steven Ericsson-Zenith
>        Institute for Advanced Science & Engineering
>        http://iase.info
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 27, 2012, at 1:39 PM, Hector Zenil wrote:
>
>> Could someone summarize why Terrence Deacon's book is such a presumed
>> breakthrough judging by the buzz it has generated among FIS
>> enthusiasts?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 11:09 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan
>>  wrote:
>>> Dear colleagues,
>>>
>>> Krassimir Markov's suggestion is excellent. Next year we could have a
>>> FIS conference in his place, centered in the exploration of the new info
>>> avenue drafted by Terrence Deacon's book, and started by Stuart Kauffman
>>> and others. Previously my suggestion is that we have a regular
>>> discussion session (like the many ones had in this list). A couple of
>>> voluntary chairs, and an opening text would be needed. Sure Bob Logan
>>> could handle this (perhaps off list) and we would have a fresh
>>> discussion session for the coming months.
>>>
>>> Technical Note: the current messages are not entering in the list; the
>>> filter is rejecting them as there are too many addresses together.
>>> Please, send the fis address single, and all the others separated or as
>>> as Cc. Otherwise I will have to enter them one by one.
>>>
>>> best
>>>
>>> ---Pedro
>>> (fis list coordination)
>>>
>>> -
>>> Pedro C. Marijuán
>>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>>> Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
>>> Avda. Gómez Laguna, 25, Pl. 11ª
>>> 50009 Zaragoza, Spain
>>> Telf: 34 976 71 3526 (& 6818) Fax: 34 976 71 5554
>>> pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
>>> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>>> -
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> fis mailing list
>>> fis@listas.unizar.es
>>> https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>
>> ___
>> fis mailing list
>> fis@listas.unizar.es
>> https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>

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Re: [Fis] POSTS ON TERRY' S BOOK

[Hector Zenil]

Thanks Bob,

Your summary is very much appreciated. I would be very interested to
rather know rather how the ideas from the book fit or not with the
state of the fields that Deacon is attempting to cover, or how it
advances the topic in any way (if I understand it is not attempting to
make progress in any particular direction, but rather to provide an
alternative entire change of direction from a different
epistemological approach). I just didn't see the breakthroughs with
regards to information compared to the state in which the mathematical
topic is today (I'm not saying it is not worth discussing it outside
of mathematics though, it is, but still one cannot ignore or overlook
the state of a field when pretending to contribute to it).

Some claims from your summary look to me legitimate, possibly novel,
as my knowledge in the broadest sense of what the book is pretending
to cover is limited. Other claims look to me, however, stating common
sense while others may look misinformed, specially with regard to the
state of information theory (very far from the 60 year old theory of
communication of Shannon).

I have bought the book and I'm far from reading it thoroughly (I hope
to find some spare time), but to me it looks more relevant to several
other areas than to information in particular, even if I agree there
are some interesting directions to discuss with regard to information.
Hence why I'm asking.

I see, for example, a possible conflation (even if not intended) of
Kolmogorov complexity and Chaos theory on page 196. And I cannot
atribute much to someone that is credited to advance the topic of
information with only a paragraph devoted to algorithmic information
theory, not to mention the lack of discussion of the foundational work
of Gacs, Levin, or Bennett that have all found foundational laws of
information. Many of these books take Shannon's communication theory
as the foundational cutting-edge theory of information as suggested in
page 332 and 372, when it has been decades that we moved on.

I liked Deacon's view represented in his figure 13.2, perhaps more
because it looks to me rather obscure and mysterious. I cannot,
however, explain how one can take Shannon's as the basis and then move
to the other 2 levels in such a way. Shannon's main contribution to
information was the concept of the bit, everything else was intended
to be a communication theory, we already knew that it inherits, among
other possible issues, the problems of probability theory, in
particular to define meaning, such as structure, randomness or message
interpretation. But no discussion about this on the grounds of what is
the current state of the theory is discussed whatsoever. If the book
purpose is a complete change of direction I don't see then why to keep
Shannon as a basis but then ignore all progress after Shannon.

I have to say I enjoyed more the chapters on biology, perhaps because
I know less about it, or because Deacon masters better this field (at
the end he is advertized as a anthropologist and neuroscientist).

If your summary is what Deacon's book is about:

"To my mind Terry is attempting to knit together the analytic approach
of reductive science and the synthetic approach of emergence theory,
philosophy, the humanities, and arts to understand the origins of
life, mind, consciousness, value, purpose, agency, free will
intention, beauty, thoughts, knowledge, science itself, technology,
design, sentience love, caring, and altruism."

Then I think I am right and the book is not pretending what I think
(or I thought) members in this list were suggesting to attribute it.
Which seems also compatible with the reading by Terry (Marks-Tarlow)
of the book: a change of perspective for a philosophical discussion
beyond information, and in that sense I agree it is a different and
refreshing point of view (even if it remains to me a bit obscure, and
perhaps the reason it looks so appealing to others).

Sincerely,

Hector


On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 10:57 PM, Bob Logan  wrote:
> Dear Hector - as the guy who started the buzz on FIS I guess I am the one to
> respond and I hope other do too as I would enjoy their view. Terry's book is
> important because of the story it tells of how life and sentience might have
> emerged on our planet. He also builds on the work of Stu Kauffman and takes
> the autocatalysis model for the origin of life a step forward by introducing
> teleodynamics. Many are buzzing including Stu so I would say this is an
> important book. I just finished the book and I am now inputing all of my
> marginalia and passages from the book that I underlined. I am happy to share
> this with you and the group. I am only up to page 282 out of the 545 pages
> of the text of the book. But I think that this will gave you a flavour of
> the book and the reason for the buzz. If you or others on the list request
> the rest of my notes when I complete them I will post them too but only if
> you and others find this useful.
>
> W

Re: [Fis] POSTS ON TERRY' S BOOK

[Steven Ericsson-Zenith]

Dear Hector,

What, exactly, is your objection to it? It's anti-reductionism (that I would 
object to also) or it's claim that Turing computation is insufficient (to which 
I have no objection)?  

With respect,
Steven

--
Dr. Steven Ericsson-Zenith
Institute for Advanced Science & Engineering
http://iase.info







On Apr 27, 2012, at 1:39 PM, Hector Zenil wrote:

> Could someone summarize why Terrence Deacon's book is such a presumed
> breakthrough judging by the buzz it has generated among FIS
> enthusiasts?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 11:09 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan
>  wrote:
>> Dear colleagues,
>> 
>> Krassimir Markov's suggestion is excellent. Next year we could have a
>> FIS conference in his place, centered in the exploration of the new info
>> avenue drafted by Terrence Deacon's book, and started by Stuart Kauffman
>> and others. Previously my suggestion is that we have a regular
>> discussion session (like the many ones had in this list). A couple of
>> voluntary chairs, and an opening text would be needed. Sure Bob Logan
>> could handle this (perhaps off list) and we would have a fresh
>> discussion session for the coming months.
>> 
>> Technical Note: the current messages are not entering in the list; the
>> filter is rejecting them as there are too many addresses together.
>> Please, send the fis address single, and all the others separated or as
>> as Cc. Otherwise I will have to enter them one by one.
>> 
>> best
>> 
>> ---Pedro
>> (fis list coordination)
>> 
>> -
>> Pedro C. Marijuán
>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>> Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
>> Avda. Gómez Laguna, 25, Pl. 11ª
>> 50009 Zaragoza, Spain
>> Telf: 34 976 71 3526 (& 6818) Fax: 34 976 71 5554
>> pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
>> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>> -
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> fis mailing list
>> fis@listas.unizar.es
>> https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> 
> ___
> fis mailing list
> fis@listas.unizar.es
> https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis


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Re: [Fis] POSTS ON TERRY' S BOOK

[Hector Zenil]

Could someone summarize why Terrence Deacon's book is such a presumed
breakthrough judging by the buzz it has generated among FIS
enthusiasts?

Thanks.


On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 11:09 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan
 wrote:
> Dear colleagues,
>
> Krassimir Markov's suggestion is excellent. Next year we could have a
> FIS conference in his place, centered in the exploration of the new info
> avenue drafted by Terrence Deacon's book, and started by Stuart Kauffman
> and others. Previously my suggestion is that we have a regular
> discussion session (like the many ones had in this list). A couple of
> voluntary chairs, and an opening text would be needed. Sure Bob Logan
> could handle this (perhaps off list) and we would have a fresh
> discussion session for the coming months.
>
> Technical Note: the current messages are not entering in the list; the
> filter is rejecting them as there are too many addresses together.
> Please, send the fis address single, and all the others separated or as
> as Cc. Otherwise I will have to enter them one by one.
>
> best
>
> ---Pedro
> (fis list coordination)
>
> -
> Pedro C. Marijuán
> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
> Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
> Avda. Gómez Laguna, 25, Pl. 11ª
> 50009 Zaragoza, Spain
> Telf: 34 976 71 3526 (& 6818) Fax: 34 976 71 5554
> pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
> -
>
>
> ___
> fis mailing list
> fis@listas.unizar.es
> https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

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[Fis] Conferences in Varna

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Pedro and FIS Colleagues,

Every year, including this, we organize special conference on FIS called 
"GIT" from "General Information Theory".
This year it will be organized, too.
We received interesting contributions, for instance from FIS-ers Mark Burgin 
and Karl Yavorsky (who already have submitted theirs GIT 2012 papers).
It is still possible to make submissions for GIT 2012.

For the next years we are ready to meet you again.

Usually, a good conference has to be organized at least two years in 
advance.
Because of this now is just the right moment to start !

Welcome in Varna and Bulgaria !

Friendly regards
Krassimir

PS: Let remember the web address:

www.ithea.org

or simply

ithea.org






-Original Message- 
From: Pedro C. Marijuan
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012 1:09 PM
To: fis@listas.unizar.es
Cc: lricha...@ocad.ca ; stephen.guaste...@marquette.edu ; 
jtrevira...@faculty.ocadu.ca ; stukauff...@gmail.com ; 
stuart.kauff...@uvm.edu ; dea...@berkeley.edu ; gvanalst...@faculty.ocadu.ca
Subject: [Fis] POSTS ON TERRY' S BOOK

Dear colleagues,

Krassimir Markov's suggestion is excellent. Next year we could have a
FIS conference in his place, centered in the exploration of the new info
avenue drafted by Terrence Deacon's book, and started by Stuart Kauffman
and others. Previously my suggestion is that we have a regular
discussion session (like the many ones had in this list). A couple of
voluntary chairs, and an opening text would be needed. Sure Bob Logan
could handle this (perhaps off list) and we would have a fresh
discussion session for the coming months.

Technical Note: the current messages are not entering in the list; the
filter is rejecting them as there are too many addresses together.
Please, send the fis address single, and all the others separated or as
as Cc. Otherwise I will have to enter them one by one.

best

---Pedro
(fis list coordination)

-
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Avda. Gómez Laguna, 25, Pl. 11ª
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Telf: 34 976 71 3526 (& 6818) Fax: 34 976 71 5554
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
-


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[Fis] POSTS ON TERRY' S BOOK

[Pedro C. Marijuan]

Dear colleagues,

Krassimir Markov's suggestion is excellent. Next year we could have a
FIS conference in his place, centered in the exploration of the new info
avenue drafted by Terrence Deacon's book, and started by Stuart Kauffman
and others. Previously my suggestion is that we have a regular
discussion session (like the many ones had in this list). A couple of
voluntary chairs, and an opening text would be needed. Sure Bob Logan
could handle this (perhaps off list) and we would have a fresh
discussion session for the coming months.

Technical Note: the current messages are not entering in the list; the
filter is rejecting them as there are too many addresses together.
Please, send the fis address single, and all the others separated or as
as Cc. Otherwise I will have to enter them one by one.

best

---Pedro
(fis list coordination)

-
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Avda. Gómez Laguna, 25, Pl. 11ª
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Telf: 34 976 71 3526 (& 6818) Fax: 34 976 71 5554
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
-


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Re: [Fis] Incomplete Nature - Completing the discussion that Terrystarted

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Bob, Terry and FIS colleagues,
Let me remember the possibility to organize conferences on FIS offerd by the 
ITHEA ISS in Varna, Bulgaria.
Please see what we have done till now at
http://ithea.org/
You and all FIS colleagues are welcome !
Friendly regards
Krassimir





From: Bob Logan 
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 6:45 PM
To: dea...@berkeley.edu 
Cc: Greg Van Alstyne ; Guastello,Stephen ; Jutta (Academic) Treviranus ; Lenore 
Richards ; off...@nesci.org ; Stuartkauffman ; stuart.kauff...@uvm.edu ; 
yan...@nesci.org ; fis ; Stuart Kauffman 
Subject: [Fis] Incomplete Nature - Completing the discussion that Terrystarted

Hi Terry - I just finished your book literally 2 minutes ago. I just had to 
tell you what a brilliant and moving piece of work it is. I plan to go through 
it and write a lengthy review of it just to attempt to nail down all the ideas 
you developed in this amazing tome. And I agree "there is more here than 
stuff". 

The first thing that comes to mind is that a conference should be organized 
around this book so we can discuss as a community the implication of the 
challenges you have presented. This is an important piece of work the 
implications of which need to be discussed.

I would be happy to help organize such a conference but I do not think I have 
the resources to organize such a conference myself at OCAD University but I 
will try. I can think of some organizations for which this idea would appeal. 
Perhaps the complexity conferences organized by Yaneer at NESCI would be an 
appropriate venue. I remember vividly a conversation that you and Stu had in 
which I participated in a peripheral way at one of Yaneer's conferences a 
number of years ago, which I believe was held in Boston.


Another possibility is the Society for Chaos Theory in Psychology & Life 
Sciences conference co-ordinated by Stephen Guastello

Another possibility is someone in the FIS group based primarily in Europe might 
want to do something.

{If any of the groups I mentioned are interested in  a conference on Terry's 
book Incomplete Nature please contact me so I can volunteer to help}

I would want to involve Stuart Kauffman in such a conference as you refer to 
him frequently. I am very proud that you began Chapter 13 with the quote from 
Stu that was contained in the paper I co-authored with him and others.

Perhaps there is a conference already being planned in which case I would like 
to participate. 

Finally, you asked that I remind you to write a short piece for the special 
issue of the e-journal MDPI Information. So this is another reminder. An 
excerpt from your book would do as well.

Thanks so much for writing such a great book and stimulating so much thought. 

Bob

__ 

Robert K. Logan
Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD
Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto 
www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan








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Re: [Fis] Incomplete Nature - Completing the discussion that Terry started

[Terry Marks-Tarlow]

Hi Bob,While I am greatly honored that you are attributing this book to me, 
Incomplete Nature, this is actually not my book. Wrong Terry!I did just write a 
book that I was hoping you were referring to when I started your email, called 
Clinical Intuition in Psychotherapy: The Neurobiology of Embodied Response.But 
Incomplete Nature, which is indeed a brilliant book and should have a 
conference surrounding it, is written by Terrence Deacon.So.I am not in 
contact with him and don't have his email address offhand, but I suggest you 
get hold of it and transfer your glowing comments to the person who merits 
them.All my best,Terry Terry Marks-Tarlow, Ph.D.1460 7th Street, Suite 304Santa 
Monica, CA 90401(310) 458-3418www.markstarlow.com
 From: lo...@physics.utoronto.ca
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 11:45:03 -0400
To: dea...@berkeley.edu
CC: gvanalst...@faculty.ocadu.ca; stephen.guaste...@marquette.edu; 
jtrevira...@faculty.ocadu.ca; lricha...@ocad.ca; off...@nesci.org; 
stukauff...@gmail.com; stuart.kauff...@uvm.edu; yan...@nesci.org; 
fis@listas.unizar.es; ska...@telus.net
Subject: [Fis] Incomplete Nature - Completing the discussion that Terry started

Hi Terry - I just finished your book literally 2 minutes ago. I just had to 
tell you what a brilliant and moving piece of work it is. I plan to go through 
it and write a lengthy review of it just to attempt to nail down all the ideas 
you developed in this amazing tome. And I agree "there is more here than stuff".
The first thing that comes to mind is that a conference should be organized 
around this book so we can discuss as a community the implication of the 
challenges you have presented. This is an important piece of work the 
implications of which need to be discussed.
I would be happy to help organize such a conference but I do not think I have 
the resources to organize such a conference myself at OCAD University but I 
will try. I can think of some organizations for which this idea would appeal. 
Perhaps the complexity conferences organized by Yaneer at NESCI would be an 
appropriate venue. I remember vividly a conversation that you and Stu had in 
which I participated in a peripheral way at one of Yaneer's conferences a 
number of years ago, which I believe was held in Boston.
Another possibility is the Society for Chaos Theory in Psychology & Life 
Sciences conference co-ordinated by Stephen Guastello
Another possibility is someone in the FIS group based primarily in Europe might 
want to do something.
{If any of the groups I mentioned are interested in  a conference on Terry's 
book Incomplete Nature please contact me so I can volunteer to help}
I would want to involve Stuart Kauffman in such a conference as you refer to 
him frequently. I am very proud that you began Chapter 13 with the quote from 
Stu that was contained in the paper I co-authored with him and others.
Perhaps there is a conference already being planned in which case I would like 
to participate. 
Finally, you asked that I remind you to write a short piece for the special 
issue of the e-journal MDPI Information. So this is another reminder. An 
excerpt from your book would do as well.
Thanks so much for writing such a great book and stimulating so much thought. 
Bob

__
Robert K. LoganChief Scientist - sLab at OCADProf. Emeritus - Physics - U. of 
Toronto www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan




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