Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

2014-12-03 Thread Lars-Göran Johansson
I suggest that you take a look at Floridis book 'Philosophy of Information' 
where he distinguishes three senses of the word 'information' and one of which 
seems to fit what you are asking about , viz., 'Neuroinformation'.
regards 
Lars-Göran Johansson

3 dec 2014 kl. 13:46 skrev Carolina Isiegas cisie...@gmail.com:

 Dear list,
 
 I have been reading during the last year all these interesting exchanges. 
 Some of them terrific discussions! Given my scientific backgound (Molecular 
 Neuroscience), I would like to hear your point of view on the topic of 
 neuroinformation, how information exists within the Central Nervous 
 Systems. My task was experimental; I was interested in investigating the 
 molecular mechanisms underlying learning and memory, specifically, the role 
 of the cAMP-PKA-CREB signaling pathway in such brain functions (In Ted Abel´s 
 Lab at the University of Pennsylvania, where I spent 7 years). I generated 
 several genetically modified mice in which I could regulate the expression of 
 this pathway in specific brain regions and in which I studied the effects of 
 upregulation or downregulation at the synaptic and behavioral levels. 
 However, I am conscious that the information flow within the mouse Nervous 
 System is far more complex that in the simple pathway that I was 
 studying...so, my concrete question for you Fishers or Fisers, how should 
 we contemplate the micro and macro structures of information within the 
 neural realm? what is Neuroinformation?
 
 Best wishes,
 
 
 -- 
 Carolina Isiegas
 ___
 Fis mailing list
 Fis@listas.unizar.es
 http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

--
Lars-Göran Johansson
professor
filosofiska institutionen
Uppsala Universitet




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Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

2014-12-03 Thread Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic
Very interesting. It might also be useful to connect information to
computation as information dynamics.
Information self-structuring and morphological computing are of interest.
See for example:

http://www.indiana.edu/~cortex/ICDL05_paper.pdf Information
Self-Structuring: Key Principle for Learning
and Development 

This type of computation (biological, neurocomputation) is richer both
temporally and spatially than Turing Machine model ca capture. See:
http://csc.ucdavis.edu/~cmg/papers/Crutchfield.CHAOSIntro2010.pdf Santa Fe
Institute Working Paper 10-11-024
Beyond the Digital Hegemony. A Focus Issue on Intrinsic and Designed
Computation: Information Processing in Dynamical Systems


So if brain structures compute, this computation is much more complex than
a simple mechanical clockwork-type process.

Conferences in the series http://www.neuroinformatics2013.org and
http://www.neuroinformatics2014.org are also closely related.
Neuroscientists talk about information processing in the brain and mutual
information (see the first article).

Information can be seen as structures and computation as the dynamics of
those structures. 
Both are complex in case of brain - the structures are fractal and
processes are parallel concurrent and distributed.

We are still trying to develop suitable frameworks both in information
theory and in theory of computation,
at the same time with learning more about brain - it is a two-way
development process.

There is a beautiful article: Lila Kari, Grzegorz Rozenberg: The many
facets of natural computing - that addresses those new developments.
http://delivery.acm.org/10.1145/141/1400200/p72-kari.pdf?ip=129.16.219.
106id=1400200acc=ACTIVE%20SERVICEkey=74F7687761D7AE37%2E3C5D6C4574200C81
%2E4D4702B0C3E38B35%2E4D4702B0C3E38B35CFID=460437900CFTOKEN=86096657__ac
m__=1417615447_3795fbeab8c8723f1f2fb7884c2936b2


With best regards,
Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic





Gordana Dodig Crnkovic, Professor of Computer Science
Chalmers University of Technology  University of Gothenburg, Sweden
http://www.ait.gu.se/kontaktaoss/personal/gordana-dodig-crnkovic/
School of Innovation, Design and Engineering, Mälardalen University
http://www.mrtc.mdh.se/~gdc/








On 03/12/14 13:55, Lars-Göran Johansson
lars-goran.johans...@filosofi.uu.se wrote:

I suggest that you take a look at Floridis book 'Philosophy of
Information' where he distinguishes three senses of the word
'information' and one of which seems to fit what you are asking about ,
viz., 'Neuroinformation'.
regards 
Lars-Göran Johansson

3 dec 2014 kl. 13:46 skrev Carolina Isiegas cisie...@gmail.com:

 Dear list,
 
 I have been reading during the last year all these interesting
exchanges. Some of them terrific discussions! Given my scientific
backgound (Molecular Neuroscience), I would like to hear your point of
view on the topic of neuroinformation, how information exists within
the Central Nervous Systems. My task was experimental; I was interested
in investigating the molecular mechanisms underlying learning and
memory, specifically, the role of the cAMP-PKA-CREB signaling pathway in
such brain functions (In Ted Abel´s Lab at the University of
Pennsylvania, where I spent 7 years). I generated several genetically
modified mice in which I could regulate the expression of this pathway
in specific brain regions and in which I studied the effects of
upregulation or downregulation at the synaptic and behavioral levels.
However, I am conscious that the information flow within the mouse
Nervous System is far more complex that in the simple pathway that I
was studying...so, my concrete question for you Fishers or Fisers,
how should we contemplate the micro and macro structures of information
within the neural realm? what is Neuroinformation?
 
 Best wishes,
 
 
 -- 
 Carolina Isiegas
 ___
 Fis mailing list
 Fis@listas.unizar.es
 http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

--
Lars-Göran Johansson
professor
filosofiska institutionen
Uppsala Universitet




___
Fis mailing list
Fis@listas.unizar.es
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis


___
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Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

2014-12-03 Thread Robert E. Ulanowicz
Dear Dr. Isiegas:

I envision neuroinformation as the mutual information of the neuronal
network where synaptic connections are weighted by the frequencies of
discharge between all pairs of neurons. This is directly analogous to a
network of trophic exchanges among an ecosystem, as illustrated in
http://people.biology.ufl.edu/ulan/pubs/SymmOvhd.PDF.

Please note that this measure is different from the conventional
sender-channel-receiver format of communications theory. It resembles more
the structural information inhering in the neuronal network. John
Collier (also a FISer) calls such information enformation to draw
attention to its different nature.

With best wishes for success,

Bob Ulanowicz

 Dear list,

 I have been reading during the last year all these interesting
 exchanges. Some of them terrific discussions! Given my scientific
 backgound
 (Molecular Neuroscience), I would like to hear your point of view on the
 topic of neuroinformation, how information exists within the Central
 Nervous Systems. My task was experimental; I was interested in
 investigating the molecular mechanisms underlying learning and memory,
 specifically, the role of the cAMP-PKA-CREB signaling pathway in such
 brain
 functions (In Ted Abel´s Lab at the University of Pennsylvania, where I
 spent 7 years). I generated several genetically modified mice in which I
 could regulate the expression of this pathway in specific brain regions
 and
 in which I studied the effects of upregulation or downregulation at the
 synaptic and behavioral levels. However, I am conscious that the
 information flow within the mouse Nervous System is far more complex
 that
 in the simple pathway that I was studying...so, my concrete question for
 you Fishers or Fisers, how should we contemplate the micro and macro
 structures of information within the neural realm? what is
 Neuroinformation?

 Best wishes,


 --
 Carolina Isiegas
 ___
 Fis mailing list
 Fis@listas.unizar.es
 http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis



___
Fis mailing list
Fis@listas.unizar.es
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis


Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

2014-12-03 Thread Karl Javorszky
Dear Dr. Isiegas,

let me offer some proposals as to the underlying concepts that
differentiate treatment of information in the technical and in the biologic
understanding.

The neuronal process is both sequential and commutative: commutative in the
sense that chemical reactions take place concurrently (not one after the
other), sequential in the sense that the burst is uniform and comes after a
number of ticks (minimal steps of a temporal nature), like a 1 coming after
x 0s, and then follow y ticks of 0 again before the next 1.

The interplay between sequenced and non-sequenced is fascinating. It
appears to this person, that there must exist a threshold after which a
qualitatively different process takes place that breaks the space-matter
continuum. I think of the same disruptive transformation as observed or
interpreted with explosions, supernovae or collapses. We see that there is
a gradual process which reaches a limit, after which the process cannot
exist, and even the implications of the process become logically impossible.

This MIGHT (maybe, just suggesting) be related to the information content
in an expression reaching Zero, that is, the redundancy having been
eliminated. In this approach information and redundancy are two sides
of the same coin. The coin can be visualised by agreeing that the
denotation of a logical fact cannot carry any information, as it is by
definition a part of a tautological system. (If we figure out once and for
all, e.g., how the Sun digests and spits and pulls and does its manifold
effects, this naked relation among logical objects will be no news, as it
will be a part of the great tautology of a complicated multiplication
table: it will become self-evident and we shall say: of course, this cannot
function otherwise.) The scientific process, the step-by-step way until we
unclothe and discover the quintessential fact, that is information - and
this is also a redundancy. Which steps we have gone thru, which cul-de-sacs
we have visited, that is information. This we realise after we recognise
that these digressions are not that what we have been looking for.

Presently, we embellish our ideas about, say, e.g. the Sun,  and it is
information that previously, people have thought the Sun to be a God or
even the main god.

Recognising the quintessence, the skeleton of interdependences is peeling
off connotations, until that remains which is pure logic - and that cannot
be of any informational value above Zero (as it cannot be otherwise), as
Kant has pointed out.

As to the methods of how to cause a logical explosion, please contemplate
that sequences and assemblies of a contemporary nature (mixtures) have
massive logical contradictions (see www.OEIS.org A242615) which result in
the system of additions not being correct in some cases, as there appear
either too much material or too much distance among material entities, so
there has to be a disruption. This will take place only if the succession
is in its mathematically pure form, that is, without any redundancies. This
means that within a set no duplicates are allowed.

So, the proposal of this person is to look into the process of uniquify-ing
the constituents of the assembly, because if the collection is in its ideal
state, it will blow up.

Squeezing out redundancy can only be driven up to a point, where there is
no more redundancy to be eliminated. In this moment, basic contradictions
appear and result in a breakdown of the continuity. That Nature has managed
to restart after a mini-catastrophe, even to make use of this planned
breakdown as a signal is what is for me the information in our search for
the mechanism that is neuro-information. The usage of a lightning that is
being provoced by chemical processes.

Hope that this can be helpful.

Karl

2014-12-03 13:46 GMT+01:00 Carolina Isiegas cisie...@gmail.com:

 Dear list,

 I have been reading during the last year all these interesting
 exchanges. Some of them terrific discussions! Given my scientific backgound
 (Molecular Neuroscience), I would like to hear your point of view on the
 topic of neuroinformation, how information exists within the Central
 Nervous Systems. My task was experimental; I was interested in
 investigating the molecular mechanisms underlying learning and memory,
 specifically, the role of the cAMP-PKA-CREB signaling pathway in such brain
 functions (In Ted Abel´s Lab at the University of Pennsylvania, where I
 spent 7 years). I generated several genetically modified mice in which I
 could regulate the expression of this pathway in specific brain regions and
 in which I studied the effects of upregulation or downregulation at the
 synaptic and behavioral levels. However, I am conscious that the
 information flow within the mouse Nervous System is far more complex that
 in the simple pathway that I was studying...so, my concrete question for
 you Fishers or Fisers, how should we contemplate the micro and macro
 structures of information within