Re: [Fis] non-living objects COULD NOT “exchange information”

2017-03-24 Thread Karl Javorszky
1) Let me second to the point Alex raises:
machines, computers, do exchange information. It would be against cultural
conventions to say that the notification that the refrigerator sends to
your phone's app "to-do-list" of the content "milk only 0.5 liter
available" is not an information.

The signals my car's pressure sensor sends to my dashboard, saying "tire
pressure front right wheel is critically low" is a clear case of
information, whether I read it or not.

2) Let me add to the point Alex states, namely that the "form of
information that I presented to FiS a year ago offers the only
scientifically based,mathematical physics form of 'information' that I have
personally seen in the scientific literature", (Alex, will you please
restate in the present context, for the present discussion, your
formulation) the following:

I have given in my work "Natural orders - de ordinibus naturalibus" (ISBN
9783990571378) the following definition of the term "information":
8.3.3.3 Information is a description of what is not the case.
[Let *x = a**k*. This is a statement, no information contained. Let *x = a*
*k* and *k ** {1,2,...,k,...,n}*. This statement
contains the information *k ***
*{1,2,...,k-1,k+1,...,n}*.]
(Sorry for the included & not-included symbols not making it thru the
simplified  text editor in use here.)

Karl


2017-03-24 18:51 GMT+01:00 Alex Hankey :

> BUT, in common parlance, computers and mobile phones 'exchange
> information' (in the abstract, digital sense) all the time. Including this
> email.
>
> If you wish to cleanly restrict yourself to semantic content, the the form
> of information that I presented to FiS a year ago offers the only
> scientifically based,mathematical physics form of 'information' that I have
> personally seen in the scientific literature.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Alex Hankey
>
>
> On 24 March 2017 at 15:25, Krassimir Markov  wrote:
>
>> Dear Arturo and FIS Colleagues,
>> Let me remember that:
>> The basic misunderstanding that non-living objects could “exchange
>> information” leads to many principal theoretical as well as psychological
>> faults.
>> For instance, photon could exchange only energy and/or reflections !
>> *Sorry for this n-th my remark ... *
>> Friendly greetings
>> Krassimir
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* tozziart...@libero.it
>> *Sent:* Friday, March 24, 2017 4:52 PM
>> *To:* fis@listas.unizar.es
>> *Subject:* [Fis] I: Re: Is information truly important?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear  Lars-Göran,
>> I prefer to use asap my second FIS bullet, therefore it will be my last
>> FIS mail for the next days.
>>
>> First of all, in special relativity, an observer is NOT by definition a
>> material object that can receive and store incoming energy from other
>> objects.
>> In special relativity, an observer is a frame of reference from which a
>> set of objects or events are being measured.  Speaking of an observer is
>> not specifically hypothesizing an individual person who is experiencing
>> events, but rather it is a particular mathematical context which objects
>> and events are to be evaluated from. The effects of special relativity
>> occur whether or not there is a "material object that can recieve and store
>> incoming energy from other objects" within the inertial reference frame to
>> witness them.
>>
>> Furthermore, take a photon (traveling at speed light) that crosses a
>> cosmic zone close to the sun.  The photon "detects" (and therefore can
>> interact with) a huge sun surface (because of its high speed), while we
>> humans on the Earth "detect" (and can interact with) a much smaller sun
>> surface.
>> Therefore, the photon may exchange more information with the sun than the
>> humans on the Earth: both the photon and the humans interact with the same
>> sun, but they "detect" different surfaces, and therefore they may exchange
>> with the sun a different information content.
>> If we also take into account that the photon detects an almost infinite,
>> fixed time, this means once again that it can exchange much more
>> information with the sun than we humans can.
>>
>> In sum, once again, information does not seem to be a physical quantity,
>> rather just a very subjective measure, depending on the speed and of the
>> time of the "observer".
>>
>>
>>
>> *Arturo Tozzi*
>>
>> AA Professor Physics, University North Texas
>>
>> Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy
>>
>> Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba
>>
>> http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/
>>
>>
>> Messaggio originale
>> Da: "Lars-Göran Johansson" 
>> Data: 24/03/2017 14.50
>> A: "tozziart...@libero.it"
>> Ogg: Re: [Fis] Is information truly important?
>>
>>
>> 24 mars 2017 kl. 13:15 skrev tozziart...@libero.it:
>>
>> Dear Fisers,
>> a big doubt...
>>
>> We know that the information of a 3D black hole is proportional to its 2D
>> horizon, according to the Bekenstein-Hawking equations.
>>
>> However, an 

Re: [Fis] non-living objects COULD NOT “exchange information”

2017-03-24 Thread Alex Hankey
BUT, in common parlance, computers and mobile phones 'exchange information'
(in the abstract, digital sense) all the time. Including this email.

If you wish to cleanly restrict yourself to semantic content, the the form
of information that I presented to FiS a year ago offers the only
scientifically based,mathematical physics form of 'information' that I have
personally seen in the scientific literature.

Best wishes,

Alex Hankey


On 24 March 2017 at 15:25, Krassimir Markov  wrote:

> Dear Arturo and FIS Colleagues,
> Let me remember that:
> The basic misunderstanding that non-living objects could “exchange
> information” leads to many principal theoretical as well as psychological
> faults.
> For instance, photon could exchange only energy and/or reflections !
> *Sorry for this n-th my remark ... *
> Friendly greetings
> Krassimir
>
>
>
>
> *From:* tozziart...@libero.it
> *Sent:* Friday, March 24, 2017 4:52 PM
> *To:* fis@listas.unizar.es
> *Subject:* [Fis] I: Re: Is information truly important?
>
>
>
>
> Dear  Lars-Göran,
> I prefer to use asap my second FIS bullet, therefore it will be my last
> FIS mail for the next days.
>
> First of all, in special relativity, an observer is NOT by definition a
> material object that can receive and store incoming energy from other
> objects.
> In special relativity, an observer is a frame of reference from which a
> set of objects or events are being measured.  Speaking of an observer is
> not specifically hypothesizing an individual person who is experiencing
> events, but rather it is a particular mathematical context which objects
> and events are to be evaluated from. The effects of special relativity
> occur whether or not there is a "material object that can recieve and store
> incoming energy from other objects" within the inertial reference frame to
> witness them.
>
> Furthermore, take a photon (traveling at speed light) that crosses a
> cosmic zone close to the sun.  The photon "detects" (and therefore can
> interact with) a huge sun surface (because of its high speed), while we
> humans on the Earth "detect" (and can interact with) a much smaller sun
> surface.
> Therefore, the photon may exchange more information with the sun than the
> humans on the Earth: both the photon and the humans interact with the same
> sun, but they "detect" different surfaces, and therefore they may exchange
> with the sun a different information content.
> If we also take into account that the photon detects an almost infinite,
> fixed time, this means once again that it can exchange much more
> information with the sun than we humans can.
>
> In sum, once again, information does not seem to be a physical quantity,
> rather just a very subjective measure, depending on the speed and of the
> time of the "observer".
>
>
>
> *Arturo Tozzi*
>
> AA Professor Physics, University North Texas
>
> Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy
>
> Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba
>
> http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/
>
>
> Messaggio originale
> Da: "Lars-Göran Johansson" 
> Data: 24/03/2017 14.50
> A: "tozziart...@libero.it"
> Ogg: Re: [Fis] Is information truly important?
>
>
> 24 mars 2017 kl. 13:15 skrev tozziart...@libero.it:
>
> Dear Fisers,
> a big doubt...
>
> We know that the information of a 3D black hole is proportional to its 2D
> horizon, according to the Bekenstein-Hawking equations.
>
> However, an hypotetical observer traveling at light speed (who watches a
> black hole at rest) detects a very large black hole horizon, due to
> Einstein's equations.
> Therefore, he detects more information from the black hole than an
> observer at rest, who sees a smaller horizon…
>
> An observer is by definition a material object that can recieve and store
> incoming energy from other objects. Since it requires infinite energy  to
> accelerate even a slighest object to the velocity of light, no observer can
> travel at the speed of light. That means that your thought experiment is
> based in inconsistent assumptions and no vaild conclusions from them can be
> drawn.
> Lars-Göran Johansson
>
>
> In sum, information does not seem to be a physical quantity, rather just a
> very subjective measure...
>
> *Arturo Tozzi*
>
> AA Professor Physics, University North Texas
>
> Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy
>
> Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba
>
> http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/
>
> ___
> Fis mailing list
> Fis@listas.unizar.es
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>
>
> Lars-Göran Johansson
> lars-goran.johans...@filosofi.uu.se
> 0701-679178
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> ___
> Fis mailing list
> Fis@listas.unizar.es
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>
>
> ___
> Fis mailing list
> Fis@listas.unizar.es
> 

Re: [Fis] non-living objects COULD NOT “exchange information”

2017-03-24 Thread Lars-Göran Johansson

24 mars 2017 kl. 16:25 skrev Krassimir Markov 
>:

Dear Arturo and FIS Colleagues,
Let me remember that:
The basic misunderstanding that non-living objects could “exchange  
information” leads to many principal theoretical as well as psychological 
faults.
For instance, photon could exchange only energy and/or reflections !
Sorry for this n-th my remark ...
Friendly greetings
Krassimir

And let me add: a photon is not something that can exchange information, or 
energy or anything whatsoever. A photon is portion of electromagnetic 
radiation, it comes into exitence when a material object decreases its energy 
and is destroyed when another (or the same) material object absorbs that 
portion. A photon cannot increase its energy, or decrease it. And, of course, 
we cannot attribute information or information change to it.

Furthermore, as was proved by Gegerfeldt and Malament quite some time ago, a 
particle interpretation of quantum electro dynmaics is impossible. So thinking 
that a photon is confined to well defined portion of  spacetime contradicts QED.

cheers
Lars-Göran



From: tozziart...@libero.it
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 4:52 PM
To: fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: [Fis] I: Re: Is information truly important?



Dear  Lars-Göran,
I prefer to use asap my second FIS bullet, therefore it will be my last FIS 
mail for the next days.

First of all, in special relativity, an observer is NOT by definition a 
material object that can receive and store incoming energy from other objects.
In special relativity, an observer is a frame of reference from which a set of 
objects or events are being measured.  Speaking of an observer is not 
specifically hypothesizing an individual person who is experiencing events, but 
rather it is a particular mathematical context which objects and events are to 
be evaluated from. The effects of special relativity occur whether or not there 
is a "material object that can recieve and store incoming energy from other 
objects" within the inertial reference frame to witness them.

Furthermore, take a photon (traveling at speed light) that crosses a cosmic 
zone close to the sun.  The photon "detects" (and therefore can interact with) 
a huge sun surface (because of its high speed), while we humans on the Earth 
"detect" (and can interact with) a much smaller sun surface.
Therefore, the photon may exchange more information with the sun than the 
humans on the Earth: both the photon and the humans interact with the same sun, 
but they "detect" different surfaces, and therefore they may exchange with the 
sun a different information content.
If we also take into account that the photon detects an almost infinite, fixed 
time, this means once again that it can exchange much more information with the 
sun than we humans can.

In sum, once again, information does not seem to be a physical quantity, rather 
just a very subjective measure, depending on the speed and of the time of the 
"observer".



Arturo Tozzi

AA Professor Physics, University North Texas

Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy

Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba

http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/


Messaggio originale
Da: "Lars-Göran Johansson" 
>
Data: 24/03/2017 14.50
A: 
"tozziart...@libero.it">
Ogg: Re: [Fis] Is information truly important?


24 mars 2017 kl. 13:15 skrev 
tozziart...@libero.it:

Dear Fisers,
a big doubt...

We know that the information of a 3D black hole is proportional to its 2D 
horizon, according to the Bekenstein-Hawking equations.

However, an hypotetical observer traveling at light speed (who watches a black 
hole at rest) detects a very large black hole horizon, due to Einstein's 
equations.
Therefore, he detects more information from the black hole than an observer at 
rest, who sees a smaller horizon…
An observer is by definition a material object that can recieve and store 
incoming energy from other objects. Since it requires infinite energy  to 
accelerate even a slighest object to the velocity of light, no observer can 
travel at the speed of light. That means that your thought experiment is based 
in inconsistent assumptions and no vaild conclusions from them can be drawn.
Lars-Göran Johansson


In sum, information does not seem to be a physical quantity, rather just a very 
subjective measure...


Arturo Tozzi

AA Professor Physics, University North Texas

Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy

Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba

http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/

___
Fis mailing list
Fis@listas.unizar.es
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Lars-Göran Johansson

[Fis] non-living objects COULD NOT “exchange information”

2017-03-24 Thread Krassimir Markov
Dear Arturo and FIS Colleagues,
Let me remember that:
The basic misunderstanding that non-living objects could “exchange  
information” leads to many principal theoretical as well as psychological 
faults.   
For instance, photon could exchange only energy and/or reflections !
Sorry for this n-th my remark ... 
Friendly greetings
Krassimir




From: tozziart...@libero.it 
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 4:52 PM
To: fis@listas.unizar.es 
Subject: [Fis] I: Re: Is information truly important?




  Dear  Lars-Göran, 
  I prefer to use asap my second FIS bullet, therefore it will be my last FIS 
mail for the next days. 


  First of all, in special relativity, an observer is NOT by definition a 
material object that can receive and store incoming energy from other objects.  

  In special relativity, an observer is a frame of reference from which a set 
of objects or events are being measured.  Speaking of an observer is not 
specifically hypothesizing an individual person who is experiencing events, but 
rather it is a particular mathematical context which objects and events are to 
be evaluated from. The effects of special relativity occur whether or not there 
is a "material object that can recieve and store incoming energy from other 
objects" within the inertial reference frame to witness them.

  Furthermore, take a photon (traveling at speed light) that crosses a cosmic 
zone close to the sun.  The photon "detects" (and therefore can interact with) 
a huge sun surface (because of its high speed), while we humans on the Earth 
"detect" (and can interact with) a much smaller sun surface. 
  Therefore, the photon may exchange more information with the sun than the 
humans on the Earth: both the photon and the humans interact with the same sun, 
but they "detect" different surfaces, and therefore they may exchange with the 
sun a different information content.  
  If we also take into account that the photon detects an almost infinite, 
fixed time, this means once again that it can exchange much more information 
with the sun than we humans can.
   

  In sum, once again, information does not seem to be a physical quantity, 
rather just a very subjective measure, depending on the speed and of the time 
of the "observer".   

   

  Arturo Tozzi

  AA Professor Physics, University North Texas

  Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy

  Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba

  http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/ 





Messaggio originale
Da: "Lars-Göran Johansson" 
Data: 24/03/2017 14.50
A: "tozziart...@libero.it"
Ogg: Re: [Fis] Is information truly important?



  24 mars 2017 kl. 13:15 skrev tozziart...@libero.it:

  Dear Fisers, 
  a big doubt...

  We know that the information of a 3D black hole is proportional to its 2D 
horizon, according to the Bekenstein-Hawking equations.

  However, an hypotetical observer traveling at light speed (who watches a 
black hole at rest) detects a very large black hole horizon, due to Einstein's 
equations.
  Therefore, he detects more information from the black hole than an 
observer at rest, who sees a smaller horizon…
An observer is by definition a material object that can recieve and store 
incoming energy from other objects. Since it requires infinite energy  to 
accelerate even a slighest object to the velocity of light, no observer can 
travel at the speed of light. That means that your thought experiment is based 
in inconsistent assumptions and no vaild conclusions from them can be drawn. 
Lars-Göran Johansson



  In sum, information does not seem to be a physical quantity, rather just 
a very subjective measure...


  Arturo Tozzi

  AA Professor Physics, University North Texas

  Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy

  Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba

  http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/ 



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Lars-Göran Johansson
lars-goran.johans...@filosofi.uu.se
0701-679178















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[Fis] Is information truly important?

2017-03-24 Thread tozziart...@libero.it
Dear Fisers, a big doubt...
We know that the information of a 3D black hole is proportional to its 2D 
horizon, according to the Bekenstein-Hawking equations.
However, an hypotetical observer traveling at light speed (who watches a black 
hole at rest) detects a very large black hole horizon, due to Einstein's 
equations.Therefore, he detects more information from the black hole than an 
observer at rest, who sees a smaller horizon...
In sum, information does not seem to be a physical quantity, rather just a very 
subjective measure...

Arturo TozziAA Professor Physics, University North TexasPediatrician ASL 
Na2Nord, ItalyComput Intell Lab, University 
Manitobahttp://arturotozzi.webnode.it/ 

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