Re: [Fis] Is information physical?

2018-04-27 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Lou and All, Mark Burgin deserves credit for having started a discussion in which contrasting points of view are clearly delineated, and where some new convergences can appear. Karl critiques my views as philosophy, but says that numbers support them. Arturo critiques Bruno's view of

[Fis] Just a few words about substrate

2018-04-27 Thread Jose Javier Blanco Rivero
Dear fellows, Let us not forget that the talk about substrate can be misleading if it is not taken into account that communication itself produces a "double bind" (Bateson and Watzlawick)or "double closure " (von Foerster), that is, for every statement made it allows a set of suppositions to lay

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? OR Does the information exist without the carrier?

2018-04-27 Thread Louis H Kauffman
Dear Folks, I suspect I am past quota for the week. Apologies for that. 1. Work in logic and mathematics is scientific even if mathematicians and logicians sometimes deny being scientists. 2. Exact work is logical work coupled with precise and repeatable methods of measurement. 3. The point

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? 'Signs rust.'

2018-04-27 Thread Karl Javorszky
This is a literary level exposition of a view, of the category of Confessiones. The confidence of a philosopher, like that of a poet, that his words can be understood, even though they are of a subjective, individual perspective, is well rewarded if indeed the worldview can be understood. Two

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? 'Signs rust.'

2018-04-27 Thread Guy A Hoelzer
Joseph, Thank you for this concise statement. It very closely matches my own perspective. I would only add the notion that meaningfulness or meaninglessness is not an inherent property of information. It is entirely contingent upon the affect, or the absence of affect, of encountered

Re: [Fis] The Concept of Two

2018-04-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 25 Apr 2018, at 19:51, Alex Hankey wrote: > > Extract from Louis Kauffman: > > Two is a concept and it is outside of formal systems and outside of the > physical > except in that we who have that concept are linked with formalism and linked > with the apparent

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? OR Does the information exist without the carrier?

2018-04-27 Thread tozziarturo
Dear Bruno, You claim: "all computations exists independently of the existence of anything physical". I never heard, apart probably from Berkeley and Tegmark, a more untestable, metaphyisical, a-scientific, unquantifiable claim.  Dear FISers, we NEED to deal with something testable and

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? OR Does the information exist without the carrier?

2018-04-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi Lou, Colleagues, > On 25 Apr 2018, at 16:55, Louis H Kauffman wrote: > > Dear Krassimir and Mark, > Let us not forget the intermediate question: > How is information independent of the choice of carrier? > This is the fruitful question in my opinion, and it avoids the