Re: [Fis] Is information physical?

2018-04-27 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Lou and All, Mark Burgin deserves credit for having started a discussion in which contrasting points of view are clearly delineated, and where some new convergences can appear. Karl critiques my views as philosophy, but says that numbers support them. Arturo critiques Bruno's view of

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? 'Signs rust.'

2018-04-26 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Information refers to changes in patterns of energy flow, some slow (frozen), some fast, some quantitative and measurable, some qualitative and non-measurable, some meaningful and some meaningless, partly causally effective and partly inert, partly present and partly absent, all at the same

Re: [Fis] I Dataism

2018-03-10 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Plamen, I fully agree with your assessment of the downside of dataism. The necessary counterbalance, though, cannot in my opinion come through using binary operators (in the sense of Burgin/Brenner) such as capital and currency, where the movement of ideas is involved. There is an implied

Re: [Fis] Meta-observer?

2018-03-03 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Pedro and All, If I go back to Pedro's original note, I see a further aspect which might be worked into its discussion. There are no ideal meta-observers; we are all, to a certain extent, both meta-observers of the discussion and participants in it. This is not a simple vertical hierarchy.

Re: [Fis] The shadows are real !!!

2018-02-25 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear FISers, With all due respect to Krassimir, Sung, and his son, it is becoming a matter of scientific interest that statements by them and others to the effect that "systematic research of what the 'shadows' are a part" has not been done are made routinely. First of all, the logic in reality

Re: [Fis] New Year Lecture: Aftermath

2015-04-24 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Pedro, Dear Terry, Always an optimist, I was convinced that there could be a convergence of your approaches and my Logic in Reality starting from the domain of absence. What Pedro refers to as functional voids, needs, gaps, deficiencies (absences) are all predominantly negative aspects of

[Fis] Fwd: Chuan's reply11 - THE FRONTIERS OF INTELLIGENCE SCIENCE: Information Implementation Operator

2015-04-01 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear All, As tragic events repeatedly show, their origin is often not the lack of information in the simple sense, but the lack of structures (or structurations) in people capable of implementing it. These structures or capacities are also information in the complex sense, of course, but they

Re: [Fis] Chuan's reply11 - THE FRONTIERS OF INTELLIGENCE SCIENCE - unless reaches

2015-03-28 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Josh, Pedro, Chuan and All, In Josh's original note and the subsequent comments on it, I see a poetic sensibility with which I fully empathize. I return, however, to four of Josh's expressions for I think require further discussion would be useful to explicate the complex relations

Re: [Fis] Chuan's reply10 - THE FRONTIERS OF INTELLIGENCE SCIENCE-- poetry/mathematics/new science

2015-03-24 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Chuan and All, I reproduce Lewis Carroll's parody mentioned in Chuan's note for people who are not very familiar with 'Alice': the parts of mathematics are Ambition (Addition) Distraction (Subtraction) Uglification (Multiplication) Derision (Division) The humorous

[Fis] Fwd: Re: Chuan's reply8 - THE FRONTIERS OF INTELLIGENCE SCIENCE-- Poetic Intelligence amp; its Tangent

2015-03-21 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
...@cdut.edu.cn, pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es, ssal...@binghamton.edu, 13francesco.ri...@gmail.com, joe.bren...@bluewin.ch Cc : fis@listas.unizar.es Objet : Re: Chuan's reply8 - THE FRONTIERS OF INTELLIGENCE SCIENCE-- Poetic Intelligence its Tangent Dear Chuan, thanks

Re: [Fis] Chuan's reply8 - THE FRONTIERS OF INTELLIGENCE SCIENCE-- an old poem as an echo

2015-03-19 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Chuan, Rafael and All, There is a point in this exchange which perhaps should be addressed explicitly: everybody knows that people differ in their capacity to appreciate poetry emotionally. But we also differ in the capacity to appreciate the importance of poetry and art for science; this

[Fis] Fwd: Re: THE FRONTIERS OF INTELLIGENCE SCIENCE. Non-Human Intelligence

2015-03-12 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Colleagues, The science fiction writer and philosopher Stanislaw Lem raised a point about intelligence in the 1960's which is perhaps worth thinking about today. He wrote that we shall not see the presence of intelligence in outer space not because it is not there but rather because its

Re: [Fis] THE FRONTIERS OF INTELLIGENCE SCIENCE--Zhao Chuan

2015-03-10 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear All, I think that the approach of Chuan - and that of Professor Zhong - to intelligence is characterized by its TIMELESSNESS. On the one hand, it is the newest, most forward-looking, taking into account the existence of the latest technology. On the other, it ties back, through Chinese

Re: [Fis] THE FRONTIERS OF INTELLIGENCE SCIENCE--Zhao Chuan

2015-03-06 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear All, I do not agree with this characterization, not to say caricature of my position by Steven. To say that a problem is a language or cultural 'issue' is to fail to give value to what Chuan's position offers that is unique. If Steven wants precise differentiation, certainty, exact

Re: [Fis] THE FRONTIERS OF INTELLIGENCE SCIENCE--Zhao Chuan

2015-03-04 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Krassimir and All, I think what Zhao Chuan is trying to do is essential for progress in Intelligence Science. We are all familiar with concrete scientific approaches, and no-one is challenging their on-going necessity. However, their limitations are also a scientific fact, and new

[Fis] Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: Concluding the Lecture?

2015-02-02 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
discussions of Terry's approach to information in which the additional physics and its dynamic logic might be explicitly taken into account. Many thanks again, Joseph Message d'origine De : dea...@berkeley.edu Date : 31/01/2015 - 00:10 (PST) À : joe.bren...@bluewin.ch Cc : fis

[Fis] Fwd: Re: Concluding the Lecture?

2015-01-30 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Pedro, Dear FISers, Terrence Deacon has made a passionate plea for the proper consideration of his approach to information science that his contribution merits. But this consideration is only possible if he is willing to accept that some of his positions may be contaminated with

Re: [Fis] Fwd: Re: Concluding the Lecture?

2015-01-30 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
processes (Wu again) involved. Best wishes, Joseph Message d'origine De : dea...@berkeley.edu Date : 30/01/2015 - 12:43 (PST) À : joe.bren...@bluewin.ch Cc : fis@listas.unizar.es Objet : Re: [Fis] Fwd: Re: Concluding the Lecture? Thanks to Joseph for this spirited rejoinder

Re: [Fis] fis Digest, Vol 581, Issue 8

2014-03-14 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Colleagues, John Collier is sufficiently well-known and respected in his fields not to mind that one less good comment is attributed to him and allow its author, namely me, to take the credit for it ;-). John P.'s response, to MY question, then, was as broad as it was useful, bringing out

[Fis] Fwd: Re: Re: COLLECTIVE INTELLIGENCE: THREE'S A CROWD?

2014-03-08 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Colleagues, The area of debate as proposed by John P., although broad, seems to involve a number of self-imposed restrictions that perhaps should be explicitly referred to. Thus, neither John?s papers (please excuse me if I have missed it), nor the postings so far, have addressed the

Re: [Fis] FIS News (Moscow 2013)

2013-04-12 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Pedro, Glad to hear from you. Your silence was, of course, expressive, containing much information . . . Now all of us will be waiting impatiently to learn about the the new, exciting themes that were discussed at the Milton Keynes Conference. Best wishes, Joseph Message

[Fis] Information and Conformal Cyclic Cosmology

2013-03-16 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Pedro, Dear FISers, In our search for the foundations of information two years ago, we looked at Michael Conrad's fluctuon model of the universe. We came to the conclusion, I think, that 1) any coupling of fluctuations in the quantum vacuum to thermodynamic entities (biological

[Fis] Science, Philosophy and Information. An Alternative Relation

2013-02-07 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear FIS Colleagues, The formation of the the Society for the Philosophy of Information at the University of Hertfordshire is announced in the link in John's note. It includes the announcement and Call for Papers of the International Conference on the Philosophy of Information to be held

Re: [Fis] Physics of computing

2012-04-12 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Pedro, Thank you, Pedro, for bringing up the question of logics. My suggestion of a Logic in Reality is to open the debate, rather than to claim it is the only over-arching logic possible. Nevertheless, it would be useful for me and perhaps others if you could make your critique more

Re: [Fis] FW: [Fwd: Re: Physics of computing]--Plamen S.

2012-03-19 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Koichiro, With due respect for you and for the people you mention, there may be a fatal error in the initial description of the key relationships you mention as dichotomies. Unless, in all but the most trivial cases, you allow for interaction and sharing of the effective dynamic

Re: [Fis] Physics of Computing

2012-03-16 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Gordana, There are for me many question marks in ascriptions of quantum properties to complex cognitive phenomena. The inversion of perspective I propose. using Deacon's term, is to see processes of superposition as common both to quantum phenomena as simplified projections of mental

Re: [Fis] Chemical information: a field of fuzzy contours ?

2011-09-17 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Michel and FIS Colleagues, This will be an interesting discussion, since the core nature and role of information will be involved. Here is just one first point: to me, as a chemist, chemical information is only secondarily an object capable of being formalized, archived, etc. A

Re: [Fis] The world of singularities, beyond language - John Collier

2011-05-05 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear John, The reference you cited looks like essential reading and I have ordered it. Thank you for calling it to our attention. I believe, also, that the conventional view of meaning leads to its erasure, and this exactly why a Derridean view of writing (and speech) is required in which

Re: [Fis] ON INFORMATION THEORY--Mark Burgin

2011-04-14 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Beth, I like your summary. I see throughout it reference to the space of mystery as something not actual, but that needs to be filled. You also refer to the virtual and virtual entities and non-represented phenomenological elements. My suggestion is to that the essential, causally necessary

Re: [Fis] ON INFORMATION THEORY--Mark Burgin

2011-04-08 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Mark, Thank you for your expert and thought-provoking Charter for this discussion. I feel your mathematics provides a very solid ground from which further concepts can develop and be evaluated. I have one question, first, in this connection: you have stated that transformations of

Re: [Fis] Hello FIS

2011-04-05 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Plamen, Welcome to the group (from a member). Your project is most interesting, but your questionnaire is daunting! Would you accept partial answers that I and others might make on specific points? You would not have a perfect grid to work with, but you should get plenty of

[Fis] Physiosemiosis - and Biotic Information

2011-04-02 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Stan, This looks like a very useful tack and I am looking forward to reading about it. My language for situations where context does not affect the object-system interaction is that there is no adequate contradictorial relation in the interaction, and classical logic applies. We may

Re: [Fis] Discussion colophon--James Hannam. Orders and Ordering Principles

2011-04-01 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Pedro, I do not quite recognize myself in the statement: Basically, their informational subject looks like the abstract, disembodied, non-situated, classical observer, equipped in a Cartesian austerity --and outside, just the Order or maybe the Disorder. I thought my implicit observer

Re: [Fis] Discussion colophon--James Hannam. Orders and Ordering Principles

2011-03-28 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Karl, Dear Loet, Thank you both for your postings and the perspectives they provide. They leave me with just two questions, and I am glad Karl does not want to close the discussion so that I may ask for your and other views on them. 1. Does Loet's reply to Karl regarding frameworks for

Re: [Fis] Poetry, Computers and Information - reply to Zhao

2011-03-03 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Ted, I would like to believe that we are in the same business, that of seeking new logical tools that describe reality, which is what my Logic in Reality, mentioned here on and off purports to do. I suppose my logic is a three-sorted logic, whose structural elements are the actual and

[Fis] WG: Re: [Fwd: Foundational Views of Shannon Information Theory]--From Gavin Ritz

2011-02-16 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Pedro and Friends, It is rather fascinating to observe - scientifically, without vested interest - that an initiative such as this one, devoted to information, is continually accompanied by its loss. Previously discussed subjects, such as the existence of alternative logics that speak

Re: [Fis] FW: The Background to Modern Science. Logic

2011-02-02 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear James, Welcome to the group from a quondam chemist turned logician. I would be very interested in your views on the role of logic, as it is usually conceived of, in defining modern science. I recently visited Basel, Switzerland where there was an exhibition celebrating the 550th

Re: [Fis] comments next session. Logic of Non-Distinctions

2011-01-27 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Krassimir and All, Please let me direct your attention to the following in Soeren's last note, as well as Pedro's comment on Karl's system and Logic of Distinctions: severe limitations to a view of information theory as a universal glue, a universal predicate, a universal code

Re: [Fis] Info Theory

2011-01-21 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Karl, The assumption I would like to check that we share is that existence and energy are primitive and numbers something derived. When one moves from the quantum vacuum or singularity into the thermodynamic world, as soon as change occurs, something is no longer totally

Re: [Fis] Future discussions

2011-01-18 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Pedro and All, Thank you for your note and the ambitious program. My brief comments by theme: --Theme 1: Historical Foundations of Modern Science. Sounds very interesting; the Science and Society aspect fits well with Theme 3. -- Theme 2: On Information Theory. My hope

Re: [Fis] cfp: Hermeneutics Science: Worlds, Realities and Life

2010-04-27 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Olga and Laszlo. Thank you for calling my attention to this area of research, of which I personally was not aware, and for the invitation to participate in your Conference. Would it be too much, however, to ask if you could send us, rather than just a bare invitation, a few

Re: [Fis] Explaining Experience In Nature

2010-03-02 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Steven, I have made a first reading of your text and am sympathetic to its objectives. Three quick comments: a) In 1947, Stephane Lupasco wrote: Logic is experience; experience is logic. He then and I now in my rework of his theory Logic in Reality (2008) Dordrecht: Springer

Re: [Fis] Derrida's diferAnce and Kolmogorov's Information Operator

2010-02-23 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
in (as lowest level semantic information is) something complex and interactive. Many thanks. Best, Joseph Message d'origine De: lo...@physics.utoronto.ca Date: 22.02.2010 15:07 À: joe.bren...@bluewin.ch Copie: Pedro Clemente Marijuan Fernandezpcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es, fisfis

[Fis] Derrida's diferAnce and Kolmogorov's Information Operator

2010-02-21 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
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Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?

2009-01-23 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Stan and Bob, I am absolutely delighted to learn that you both had felt the need to complexify the concept of self-organization. I would very much welcome more on the dialectical approach that you have used, as I think it might have, in my framework, further applications. These might be

Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?

2009-01-16 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Dear Friends, I have been in transit between home in Switzerland and California where my wife and I spend the winter and thus have just now looked at this emerging exchange. It obviously requires more study, but three things jump out at me: 1.But the good thing is to be able to go down to