For establishing the upper limit of the maximal number of commutative
groups on sets, the logarithm well pictures the decreasing probabilities of
finding a new constellation of symbols, by the ever increasing number of
factors in the divisor.
Hans von Baeyer schrieb am So., 3. Juni 2018 21:53:
There were some reports in clinical psychology, about 30 years ago, that
relate to the question whether a machine can pretend to be a therapist.
That was the time as computers could newly be used in an interactive
fashion, and the Rogers techniques were a current discovery.
Dear Michel and Sung,
Your discussion is way above my head in the jargon and background
knowledge. Please bear with me while a non-mathematician tries to express
some observations that regard symmetry.
Two almost symmetrical spaces appear as Gestalts, expressed by numbers, if
one orders and
n A and B adds up to make the whole (e.g.,
> the forest-tree pair), and (ii) complementarity wherein A or B is the
> whole, depending on how the whole is observed (e.g., light as either wave
> or particle depending on how it is measured). I can send you the reference
> if needed.
Very encouraging the discussion of the difficulties human perception poses
while trying to consolidate opposites.
The existence of the mental image is built on contrasts, so no wonder we
find it hard to get a good grip on the mechanisms at work consolidating
This is a literary level exposition of a view, of the category of
Confessiones. The confidence of a philosopher, like that of a poet, that
his words can be understood, even though they are of a subjective,
individual perspective, is well rewarded if indeed the worldview can be
The question „Is information physical?” relates to the equivalence between
two mental/emotional contents of the brain, and can be compared to “Is A =
B ?” at first sight. In the form the question is posed, it is rendered in a
more empathic fashion in the form “Does A contain a sufficiently large
;> The whole physicalness is indeed the arithmetic seen from the internal
>> arithmetical beings, but the person attached to them are not arithmetical
>> not even analytical (not even third person describable in any way).
>> I am aware that what I say contradicts 150
> On 15/03/18 10:11, Karl Javorszky wrote:
> >To me, it does not appear necessary to make a distinction between
> “reality” and “data”
> That's a defensible position, but it does constrain 'reality' to 'that
> which we can p
Music : Noise = Meaning : Data
if one likes contemporary music, one is being well cared for in Vienna,
specifically during the November festival “wien modern”. The concert cycle
“klangforum wien” also introduces creative approaches to what is the state
of the art in creating
Formalism is nice, but it can be unreasonable.
Your example of 2 naked men on a beach can be made simpler by adding a dog,
a sausage and a whistle.
Person A (the dog's owner) sounds the whistle. The dog is apparently used
to being fed and runs up, waging its tail.
let us work thru your Armenia paradox. It says:
" Suppose an earthquake occurred in Armenia last night and all of the main
media of the world have given the report about it. On the second day, two
students A and B are putting forward a dialogue facing the newspaper
Thank you for bringing up 3 main points of the discussion:
1)“ … the most represented position among FISers, i.e., that
information is an objective, quantitative, physical measure linked to
2)"Information = data + something in and by
Accounting is not a science
There is an old joke about the mafia boss, who needs a new accountant.
Proband 1 is asked: how much is 2+2? Answer: 4. Next candidate: How much is
2+2? Answer: anything between 3 and 5. No good. Next candidate, same
question. Answer: whatever you wish, boss. He gets
Improvements are done if there is a need to do so, innovations come about
as a result of creativity, not as answers to an existing need, but as
voluntary exertions that satisfy curiosity.
Taking your example of having enumerated all signals (phonemes, letters,
Using the logical language to understand Nature
The discussion in this group refocuses on the meaning of the terms
“symbol”, “signal”, “marker” and so forth. This is a very welcome
development, because understanding the tools one uses is usually helpful
when creating great works.
living beings as well as their biochemical
> Il 1 febbraio 2018 alle 17.16 Karl Javorszky <karl.javors...@gmail.com>
> ha scritto:
> Biodiversity and Cartography
Biodiversity and Cartography
The excellent summary by Pedro of the session just past highlights several
different areas of processes, which appear to be interrelated at least in
some methodological ways. Pedro says in effect: “… systems such as
circulatory, pulmonary, renal, brain, etc. …”
Dear Sungchul and Colleagues,
Let me join the harmonious and musical – as Francesco has put it – concert
among us, trying to understand and formalize our diverging concepts of what
Sungchul writes: “… DNA viewed as a set of linear sequences of genes …”.
This we all agree on. We
Dear Professor Torday,
thank you for your insightful analysis of the complex system which is
genetics. Your viewpoints cover from the molecular, cellular, physiological
level up to that of cosmic changes affecting the whole of the Earth. Your
work is truly a tour d’horizon of the subject.
using which the
methods of producing differing more-dimensional commutative assemblies
quasi-bijective to changes in sequences can be easily read off. The tool
you may find practical for your further research is at your disposal,
2017-11-29 20:15 GMT+01:00 Karl Javorszky
Happiness is a Tautology
There are very many aspects, levels, perspectives to a discussion that
deserves its name. We all work on understanding a system of highly complex
phenomena, which we call life. A part of it is, or it does, information, a
part of it
Wishful Thinking Reflected in the Sumerian Concept of Numbers
To be better prepared to understand the roots of our numbering conventions,
we have proposed to re-imagine the intellectual innovations achieved by the
Sumerians, while they introduced the concept of positional
*Properties of Places and of Objects*
*We have seen in this chatroom that there is recognisance of the need to
come up with something dramatically new and innovative in the field of
information theory, but also, that having been educated in a specific
fashion, it is not easy to think new
1. Il figaro autobarbando
The split between the role of the barber and the person of the barber can
be massaged into a split between form and substance.
Like roles are not additive, neither are forms. (A grandfather who is a
neighbour are not 2 persons.)
Like a person can be more (important,
your rightful indignation will be even deeper when you consider that the
official important and valuable discussion among the most prominent and
recognised eminent functionaries of highly respected institutions has been
repeatedly disturbed by boring patterns of observations
Data is that what we see by using the eyes. Information is that what we do
not see by using the eyes, but we see by using the brain; because it is the
background to that what we see by using the eyes.
Data are the foreground, the text, which are put into a context by the
1. A historic parallel: a cultural handicap
We are at Mendel again. There is an unmistakable parallel between a single
person trying to drive attention of members of a learned society to general
rules and principles that are discernible on multitudes of objects in the 19
th century and a
n. So, it should have the form component of the
> object (syntactic information), the meaning component of the object
> (semantic information), and the utility component of the object with
> respect to the subject's goal (pragmatic information). Only at this stage,
> the "meaning&qu
> The perceived information is the information, perceive by the subject from
> the object information. So, it should have the form component of the
> object (syntactic information), the meaning component of the object
> (semantic information), and the utility component of the object
Well-informed vs. Well-dated
Let me go into psychology on the distinction Krassimir raised. We have
quite different associations on “She is a well-informed person” compared to
“She is a well-dated person”.
One wonders, whether the connotations of “even” and “odd” (in German:
Data is that what we see by using the eyes.
Information is that what we do not see by using the eyes, but we see by
using the brain; because it is the background to that what we see by using
>From “Natural Orders”:
22.214.171.124 Information is
is farther away in the shade.)
Let us take 5 garden peas and order them according to any of their main
Case Nr. 1:
Garden pea nr.
phlogiston and destiny, and spend time usefully by looking into relations
among natural numbers. The time will certainly come when people will
understand that science is not glamour. Hollywood is glamour. Science is
Thanks to MDPI, a simple google entry “mdpi karl javorszky
1) Let me second to the point Alex raises:
machines, computers, do exchange information. It would be against cultural
conventions to say that the notification that the refrigerator sends to
your phone's app "to-do-list" of the content "milk only 0.5 liter
available" is not an information.
Thank you, I will reply to your e-mail as soon as possible!
Am 18.03.2017 18:40 schrieb "Jerry LR Chandler" :
> In response to the message posted below, I received the following response
Alex asks to contribute to his writing on Gestalt, based on Vedic teachings
relating to how we memorise texts. Not knowing anything about the Vedic
part of it, let me summarise what used to be accepted wisdom on Gestalt in
psychology: this without any claim to completeness or
Information and Wittgenstein
We should keep the self-evident in focus and refrain from descending into a
philosophical nihilism. We are, after all, reasonable people, who are able
to use our intelligence while communicating, and usually we understand each
other quite well. The idea, that
Thank you, Jerry, for pointing out the excellent treatise by Hempel &
Oppenheim on the Logic of Explanation. As I understand their viewpoint, the
ultimate explanation refers to a system of facts that are known to all who
use that system in which the explanation is placed. The
Thank you for the excellent discussion on a central issue of epistemology.
The assertion that topology is a primitive ancestor to mathematics needs to
The assertion maintains, that animals possess an ability of spatial
orientation which they use intelligently. This
e patterns here
referred to, it is necessary to order a collection and then order it some
more until it becomes well-ordered, and watch the conflicts that are
immanent to order, namely its alternatives and its background. This is
simple, archaic and instructive.
2016-11-30 8:46 GMT+01:00 Karl
The noble conquest of choosing the right method of understanding
information divides this learned society. Some argue that pre-Platonic
approaches towards understanding Nature are pre-scientific and therefore
can be dismissed out of hand.
Let us imagine that the Neanderthals have
Sorry for disturbing you with this test text.
A lengthy response to Josph's statements in the discussion about
Commutativity has not made it thru the spam filter.
Maybe, next week it can be persuaded to obey its human masters.
Nice weekend to you (if you read this)
> complex processes does your approach NOT apply?
> Thank you.
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Karl Javorszky <karl.javors...@gmail.com>
> *To:* Joseph Brenner <joe.bren...@bluewin.ch>
> *Cc:* Terrence Deacon <dea...@
Well, Joseph, you don't have to go far to get the desired definition of
information as an operator (produced quantity).
The only prerequisite is to be ready to discard the practice, ideas,
philosophy and ideology of the definitions relating to commutativity.
This is heresy, I understand. On the
now there is a voice discussing the concepts and methods of counting. This
is highly encouraging.
Taking together with the overall theme of "Mechanical Information in DNA"
of the discussion, it seems that - at least some of - members of FIS begin
to address the quastions of HOW the
Just a small detail on the information density of food (air, water, sensory
input, etc.) in medicine:
The DNA has a high informational value for the organism. Can it be said
that poison has also an informational value?
Can the de-constructive effect of a substance quantified based on the same
In the present Interlude after the session chaired by Lou on Symmetry and
before the coming one, allow me to enlarge on something Bruno raised.
*Then this confirms the "computationalist theory of everything", which is
given by any formalism, like Robinson Arithmetic (the rest
in time without observation is the structure
> of this collection/superposition of possibilities.
> It does not confuse possibility with actuality then the model has clarity.
> Of course it is a mystery why this model works as well as it does!
> Lou K.
> On Mar 26, 2016, at 1:
Thanks for the invitation to elaborate on the concept of quantum and how it
connects to Wittgenstein’s taboo words and information.
We may have problems understanding the concept of a quantum because the
idea appears to be non-expressible by rational, logical speech. The grammar
Dear FIS Colleagues,
1. Are the facts complicated or is our interpretation of the facts
again, the discussion centres on interpretations of Nature. How do we
picture some processes of Nature – like, specifically, the workings of
genetics and biology generally -, and which
Gyuri Darvas' Symmetry Festival is a perfect place to exchange ideas about
how the many aspects treated in FIS can be understood in a neutral and
interpersonally portable manner.
Pedro's department could give a second try modeling biological processes by
observing groups that can be built on
Dear Dr. Isiegas,
let me offer some proposals as to the underlying concepts that
differentiate treatment of information in the technical and in the biologic
The neuronal process is both sequential and commutative: commutative in the
sense that chemical reactions take place
the goal of our interactions is to
a) Learn from each other,
b) Instruct each other,
c) Move forward the cause of science,
d) Move forward the cause of one’s own,
e) Feel good.
Each of us is an individual, so there will be individual weights to the
Very sympathetic on the concept of travelers is that the basic model is
that of a dynamic system, as opposed to a Newtonian one, wherein everything
stays put or keeps on continuing as having been instructed to do. For the
bourgeois, the travelers have a connotation of mystery. They follow paths
as indicated here in the list some 2-3 months ago, I 'd like to organise a
Its title would be:
Explaining the Combinatorics behind the Translation of the Information
Content of the DNA by using Advanced Arithmetic
Would you please make it possible for participants to
and then phase 2 is reserved for calls for papers and else.
you might write a call for papers.
Am 06.10.2014 um 16:20 schrieb Karl Javorszky karl.javors...@gmail.com:
as indicated here in the list some 2-3 months ago, I 'd like to organise a
The bookkeeping exactitude refers to the number and kind of logical
If the DNA is such-and-such, the cell cannot be outside the logical limits
that are the accounting equivalents of such-and-such.
If the cell is such-and-such, the DNA cannot be otherwise than in a form
that is the
good that FIS is up again after this computer glitch.
It is encouraging, that since the resurrection the focus of FIS appears to
be sharpened. Let me quote Pridi: “… brainstorming session that would
include pure researchers and application oriented guys … … business people
The abstract and the concrete fight, because the abstract cannot presently
picture the concrete flexibly and exactly enough.
Connecting to the main thema of this session, individuality can be used to
clarify the tension. A person, belonging to many subgroups in his universe,
welcome new colleagues. Pedro has over the years built a scientific
community that is a pleasant and awakening environment for the
There has always been a tension between the empirical and the abstract in
FIS. The name of the setup is Foundations of Information Science.
Cointinuing Bob's discourse on language and words, the next step was done
by Wittgenstein, who said that as tokens, words can be represented by
numbers. This is a resurrecting of Pythagoras' statement, that Nature is
representable by natural numbers and their harmonies.
It is important to keep in
of nuomenon) can be seen as an
inexhaustible source of possible phenomena.
What do you think?
From: Karl Javorszky karl.javors...@gmail.com
Reply-To: karl.javors...@gmail.com karl.javors...@gmail.com
Date: Friday, August 30, 2013 11:26 AM
To: Pedro C. Marijuan
As Krassimir has pointed out, the term information is inseparable from
the human utilising (communicating, sending/receiving/evaluating) the
To say Information is that difference that makes a difference is like
saying Cookies are what produce an excellent sensation in the mouth or
Step Eleven of* Learn to Count in Twelve Easy Steps*
What has happened previously (pls. see http://32o2m99e.utawebhost.at)
The circumstances under which Genetics can take place are regulated by
order rules that govern both places to [kinds of] amounts and [kinds of]
Step Seven of *Essay On Order* (formerly: Learn to Count in *Twelve Easy
What has happened previously:
During a reordering, elements change place. In most reorderings, the
procedure involves more than one or two elements; these stay resp. exchange
places directly. Usually,
Step Two of *Learn to Count in Twelve Easy Steps*
*What happened previously:*
We have introduced additional describing aspects of the logical sentence
a+b=c. Next to a,b,c, we also make use of u=b-a, k=b-2a, t=2b-3a, q=a-2b,
s=17-(a+b|c), w=2a-3b. For a graphical presentation, see:
Theories needs theories do be interpreted, except that we must start from
simple agreements, on elementary arithmetic for example, to exploit that
End Bruno Begin Karl
Also, we need an agreement what to concentrate on while the communication
is made. We have agreed to use
the talk here goi