Re: [Fis] FW: Denumerability of information (II)

2009-04-02 Thread Rafael Capurro 
Christophe
I completely agree you. Interpretation is the key issue when talking 
i.e. interpreting... information. The concept of "agent" should be 
carefully analyzed. Then pragmatics (and not only Syntax and Semantics) 
becomes also a key issue, particularly in case of living agents when the 
outcomes are not deterministic.
Rafael
>
> Dear all,
> Comments from Michel and Rafael bring up an aspect of the proposal 
> that has perhaps been underestimated. It is the interpretation of 
> information which generates its content, its meaning. From 
> “Information in cells” to “information for cells” we precisely have 
> the interpretating function where an agent creates meaning for its own 
> usage. Different agents generate different meanings. And information 
> in antennas is not for antennas as they contain no interpretating 
> function.
> Can the paragraph “Semantics” cover this point? Perhaps, but I’m not 
> sure that "semantics for bioinformation" is currently used. 
> The concept of interpretation looks to me as key when talking about 
> information in agents. If the proposal takes it into account from a 
> different perspective, perhaps it would be worth expliciting it.
> Best regards
>
> Christophe
>
>  
>
> > Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 13:57:53 +0200
> > From: pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
> > To: fis@listas.unizar.es
> > Subject: [Fis] Denumerability of information (II)
> >
> >
> > (message II, responses from Díaz Nafría and Rafael Capurro)
> >
> > --
> >
> > Dear Michel:
> >
> > Thank you for your good remarks. I agree about both. Of course, data
> > banks may be considered in the list. In any case, that list should be
> > too long if it were exhaustive. That is to say, “…” concern to a much
> > larger list that the enunciated one (and considering length I may say
> > that there were only 1 character left to fulfil the “text of
> > proposal” and we use them all). Anyway, data banks are certainly a
> > relevant case so they will be mentioned in next submissions.
> >
> > About (2), I remember the controversy which arose from a question you
> > stated in December –I think-. I also keep in mind the interesting
> > answer from Rafael. I wrote him some remarks about the controversy. I
> > will try to find them to give you my point of view about that
> > interesting question.
> >
> > Grateful and cordial greetings,
> >
> > José María Díaz Nafría
> >
> > -
> >
> > Dear Michel and all,
> >
> > yes, the formulation "there is information in cells..." could be
> > misleading as it means, IMO, there is information "for" cells or
> > messages that cells are able to process "as" information, i.e., through
> > a process of selection and integration "in" them according to their
> > specific way of life. What is stored in data banks is in fact not
> > information but potential information for a system capable of
> > understanding or "processing" it. The question of numerability is one
> > possible framework of interpretation which means particularly since
> > modern science, that "we" think we understand something as far as we 
> are
> > able to interpret it as countable using particularly digital media. In
> > the 19th century this framework was mainly related to "matter" (what is
> > not "material" is not understandable). Of course different 
> frameworks or
> > (metaphysical) "paradigms" compete with each other unless they are
> > viewed as the only "true" ones... And: they have consequences for
> > society, politics etc. as we can see everyday
> >
> > kind regards
> >
> > Rafael
> > 
> > ___
> > fis mailing list
> > fis@listas.unizar.es
> > https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>
> 
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> 
> 
>
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>   


-- 
Prof. Dr. Rafael Capurro
Hochschule der Medien (HdM), Germany
Steinbeis Hochschule Berlin (SHB), Germany
Postal Address: Redtenbacherstr. 9, 76133 Karlsruhe, Germany
E-Mail: raf...@capurro.de
Voice: + 49 - 721 - 98 22 9 - 22 (Fax: -21)
Homepage: www.capurro.de
STI-IE: http://sti-ie.de
ICIE: http://icie.zkm.de
IRIE: http://www.i-r-i-e.net
Information Ethics Senior Fellow, 2009-2010, Center for Information Policy 
Research, School of Information Studies, UW-Milwaukee, USA

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Re: [Fis] FW: Denumerability of information (II)

2009-03-31 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch 


Dear Friends, 

In line especially the postings of Christophe and Stan, I was struck by what 
seems to me another instance of a debate over internal and external aspects of 
information. I thought that equally important was the information exchanged 
between a cell and its environment. This certainly has content, but I do not 
see where it fits in the proposed scheme. This information, however, since it 
is vital (sic) for the cell's survivial, perhaps should be considered as a 
prime example of Christophe's term (information for cells).

I also agree that it is important to distinguish between instances of 
information flow where interpretation or internal representation is possible, 
and those where it is not (antennae). The former are more difficult to measure, 
and that may be the challenge.

Best wishes,

Joseph   




Message d'origine

De: christophe.men...@hotmail.fr

Date: 31.03.2009 15:56

À: 

Objet: [Fis] FW:  Denumerability of information (II)




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-->
Dear all, 
Comments from Michel and Rafael bring up an aspect of the proposal that has 
perhaps been underestimated. It is the interpretation of information which 
generates its content, its meaning. From “Information in cells” to “information 
for cells” we precisely have the interpretatingfunction where an agent creates 
meaning for its own usage. Different agents generate different meanings. And 
information in antennas is not for antennas as they contain no interpretating 
function. 
Can the paragraph “Semantics” cover this point? Perhaps, but I’m not sure that 
"semantics for bioinformation" is currently used. 
The concept of interpretation looks to me as key when talking about information 
in agents. If the proposal takes it into account from a different perspective, 
perhaps it would be worth expliciting it.
Best regards
Christophe

 
> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 13:57:53 +0200
> From: pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
> To: fis@listas.unizar.es
> Subject: [Fis] Denumerability of information (II)
> 
> 
> (message II, responses from Díaz Nafría and Rafael Capurro)
> 
> --
> 
> Dear Michel:
> 
> Thank you for your good remarks. I agree about both. Of course, data
> banks may be considered in the list. In any case, that list should be
> too long if it were exhaustive. That is to say, “…” concern to a much
> larger list that the enunciated one (and considering length I may say
> that there were only 1 character left to fulfil the “text of
> proposal” and we use them all). Anyway, data banks are certainly a
> relevant case so they will be mentioned in next submissions.
> 
> About (2), I remember the controversy which arose from a question you
> stated in December –I think-. I also keep in mind the interesting
> answer from Rafael. I wrote him some remarks about the controversy. I
> will try to find them to give you my point of view about that
> interesting question.
> 
> Grateful and cordial greetings,
> 
> José María Díaz Nafría
> 
> -
> 
> Dear Michel and all,
> 
> yes, the formulation "there is information in cells..." could be 
> misleading as it means, IMO, there is information "for" cells or 
> messages that cells are able to process "as" information, i.e., through 
> a process of selection and integration "in" them according to their 
> specific way of life. What is stored in data banks is in fact not 
> information but potential information for a system capable of 
> understanding or "processing" it. The question of numerability is one 
> possible framework of interpretation which means particularly since 
> modern science, that "we" think we understand something as far as we are 
> able to interpret it as countable using particularly digital media. In 
> the 19th century this framework was mainly related to "matter" (what is 
> not "material" is not understandable). Of course different frameworks or 
> (metaphysical) "paradigms" compete with each other unless they are 
> viewed as the only "true" ones... And: they have consequences for 
> society, politics etc. as we can see everyday
> 
> kind regards
> 
> Rafael
> 
> ___
> fis mailing list
> fis@listas.unizar.es
> https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

Votre correspondant a choisi Hotmail et profite d’un stockage quasiment 
illimité.  Créez un compte Hotmail gratuitement !





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[Fis] FW: Denumerability of information (II)

2009-03-31 Thread Christophe Menant 

Dear all, 
Comments from Michel and Rafael bring up an aspect of the proposal that has 
perhaps been underestimated. It is the interpretation of information which 
generates its content, its meaning. From “Information in cells” to “information 
for cells” we precisely have the interpretating function where an agent creates 
meaning for its own usage. Different agents generate different meanings. And 
information in antennas is not for antennas as they contain no interpretating 
function. 
Can the paragraph “Semantics” cover this point? Perhaps, but I’m not sure that 
"semantics for bioinformation" is currently used. 
The concept of interpretation looks to me as key when talking about information 
in agents. If the proposal takes it into account from a different perspective, 
perhaps it would be worth expliciting it.
Best regards
Christophe

 
> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 13:57:53 +0200
> From: pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
> To: fis@listas.unizar.es
> Subject: [Fis] Denumerability of information (II)
> 
> 
> (message II, responses from Díaz Nafría and Rafael Capurro)
> 
> --
> 
> Dear Michel:
> 
> Thank you for your good remarks. I agree about both. Of course, data
> banks may be considered in the list. In any case, that list should be
> too long if it were exhaustive. That is to say, “…” concern to a much
> larger list that the enunciated one (and considering length I may say
> that there were only 1 character left to fulfil the “text of
> proposal” and we use them all). Anyway, data banks are certainly a
> relevant case so they will be mentioned in next submissions.
> 
> About (2), I remember the controversy which arose from a question you
> stated in December –I think-. I also keep in mind the interesting
> answer from Rafael. I wrote him some remarks about the controversy. I
> will try to find them to give you my point of view about that
> interesting question.
> 
> Grateful and cordial greetings,
> 
> José María Díaz Nafría
> 
> -
> 
> Dear Michel and all,
> 
> yes, the formulation "there is information in cells..." could be 
> misleading as it means, IMO, there is information "for" cells or 
> messages that cells are able to process "as" information, i.e., through 
> a process of selection and integration "in" them according to their 
> specific way of life. What is stored in data banks is in fact not 
> information but potential information for a system capable of 
> understanding or "processing" it. The question of numerability is one 
> possible framework of interpretation which means particularly since 
> modern science, that "we" think we understand something as far as we are 
> able to interpret it as countable using particularly digital media. In 
> the 19th century this framework was mainly related to "matter" (what is 
> not "material" is not understandable). Of course different frameworks or 
> (metaphysical) "paradigms" compete with each other unless they are 
> viewed as the only "true" ones... And: they have consequences for 
> society, politics etc. as we can see everyday
> 
> kind regards
> 
> Rafael
> 
> ___
> fis mailing list
> fis@listas.unizar.es
> https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

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