Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis

2018-06-05 Thread Bruno Marchal
tanley N Salthe > Sent: jeudi, 31 mai 2018 16:21 > To: Burgin, Mark; fis > Subject: Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis > > Mark -- What Shannon referred to as 'entropy' was 'variety'. 'Information' > per se was achieved by way of a reduction or winnowing of thi

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis

2018-06-05 Thread Bruno Marchal
Dear Arturo, > On 21 May 2018, at 12:49, tozziart...@libero.it wrote: > > Dear Bruno, > You state that: > "When poll are done at congress in cosmology or quantum computing, about half > of the physicists endorse the non collapse theory, as it is covariant, and > has no “measurement problem”.

[Fis] Is information physical?

2018-06-04 Thread Emanuel Diamant
Dear Arturo, Thank you very much for responding to my post (nobody else did not reacted to the UCLA finding). Even more thanks for directing me to the Neuroskeptic blog - the real discussion about the UCLA finding took place only there. You are incorrect stating that the "paper about

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis

2018-06-02 Thread Francesco Rizzo
- > > *From:* Fis [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] *On Behalf Of *Stanley > N Salthe > *Sent:* jeudi, 31 mai 2018 16:21 > *To:* Burgin, Mark; fis > > *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis > > > > Mark

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis

2018-05-31 Thread Joseph Brenner
: Fis [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Stanley N Salthe Sent: jeudi, 31 mai 2018 16:21 To: Burgin, Mark; fis Subject: Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis Mark -- What Shannon referred to as 'entropy' was 'variety'. 'Information' per se was achieved by way

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis

2018-05-31 Thread Stanley N Salthe
cholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYJ=en > > > -- Original Message -- > From: "Burgin, Mark" > To: "Søren Brier" ; "Krassimir Markov" ; > "fis@listas.unizar.es" > Sent: 5/24/2018 4:23:53 AM > Subject: Re: [Fis] Is i

Re: [Fis] Is information physical?

2018-05-31 Thread Joseph Brenner
: [Fis] Is information physical? Dear Emanuel, Hi! I'm sorry, but the UCLA finding does not put an end to any question. Indeed, this paper about memory transfer has been highly criticized: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2018/05/18/epic-snail-about-t hat-injectable-memory-study/#.Ww

Re: [Fis] Is information physical?

2018-05-31 Thread tozziarturo
Dear Emanuel, Hi! I'm sorry, but the UCLA finding does not put an end to any question. Indeed, this paper about memory transfer has been highly criticized: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2018/05/18/epic-snail-about-that-injectable-memory-study/#.Ww-V81UzYps The term

[Fis] Is information physical?

2018-05-30 Thread Emanuel Diamant
Dear FIS Colleagues, For most of the time, I restrain myself from taking part in the FIS discussions - we speak different languages and adhere to different principles. My paper invited for publication in MDPI Informatics Special Issue: Selected Papers from the ISIS Summit Vienna 2015 has been

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis

2018-05-30 Thread Burgin, Mark
:mbur...@math.ucla.edu>> To: "Søren Brier" mailto:sbr@cbs.dk>>; "Krassimir Markov" mailto:mar...@foibg.com>>; "fis@listas.unizar.es" <mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es>> Sent: 5/24/2018 4:23:53 AM Subject: Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logica

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis

2018-05-25 Thread Christophe Menant
t; fis@listas.unizar.es Objet : RE: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis Dear Christoph I am not sure what you mean. In my understanding the important dynamics in Peirce’s pragmaticist semiotics is that symbols grow and create habits in a web of signs in nature as well as in c

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis

2018-05-25 Thread Søren Brier
nature that through evolution and history develops reasoning in many interlocking dimension. Best Søren From: Christophe Menant <christophe.men...@hotmail.fr> Sent: 25. maj 2018 09:08 To: Søren Brier <sbr@cbs.dk>; fis@listas.unizar.es Subject: RE: [Fis] Is informat

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis

2018-05-25 Thread Mark Johnson
om:* l...@leydesdorff.net <leydesdo...@gmail.com> *On Behalf Of *Loet Leydesdorff *Sent:* 24. maj 2018 07:45 *To:* Burgin, Mark <mbur...@math.ucla.edu>; Søren Brier <sbr@cbs.dk>; Krassimir Markov <mar...@foibg.com>; fis@listas.unizar.es *Subject:* Re[2]: [Fis] Is information

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis

2018-05-25 Thread Christophe Menant
De : Fis <fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es> de la part de Søren Brier <sbr@cbs.dk> Envoyé : jeudi 24 mai 2018 17:44 À : Loet Leydesdorff; Burgin, Mark; Krassimir Markov; fis@listas.unizar.es Objet : Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis Dea

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis

2018-05-24 Thread Søren Brier
n Brier <sbr@cbs.dk>; Krassimir Markov <mar...@foibg.com>; fis@listas.unizar.es Subject: Re[2]: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis Dear Mark, Soren, and colleagues, The easiest distinction is perhaps Descartes' one between res cogitans and res extensa as two different

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis

2018-05-24 Thread Dai Griffiths
Thanks Lou, you are surely right to point out the object-nature of concepts. >There is no escape from sooner or later realizing that 2 exists only in the mind or in the Mind. Indeed. Our minds are full of such concepts. It seems that one of the important activities of the mind is to generate

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis

2018-05-23 Thread Loet Leydesdorff
ch9gNYJ=en -- Original Message -- From: "Burgin, Mark" <mbur...@math.ucla.edu> To: "Søren Brier" <sbr@cbs.dk>; "Krassimir Markov" <mar...@foibg.com>; "fis@listas.unizar.es" <fis@listas.unizar.es> Sent: 5/24/2018 4:23:5

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis

2018-05-23 Thread Louis H Kauffman
Dai, I start down a road toward attempting to understand information by first understanding number and form. | || ||| | … Is a number a thing? Is 2 a thing? Cannot say that this 2, this || “is” two. Rather it partakes in being a couple. 2 is relational. We say that there are 2 signs in

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis - Can it be Improved?

2018-05-23 Thread Burgin, Mark
Dear Jerry, Joseph and all FISers, The title of my contribution is Logical Analysis but not Formal Logical Analysis. It means that I did not use any formal logic but thoroughly applied simple mundane logic, which is frequently used in everyday life. Sincerely, Mark On 5/18/2018 8:45

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis

2018-05-23 Thread Burgin, Mark
<mbur...@math.ucla.edu> *Emne:* Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis Dear Mark and FIS Colleagues, First of all. I support the idea of Mark to write a paper and to publish it in IJ ITA. It will be nice to continue our common work this way. At the second place, I want to point t

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis

2018-05-21 Thread tozziarturo
Dear Bruno, You state that: "When poll are done at congress in cosmology or quantum computing, about half of the physicists endorse the non collapse theory, as it is covariant, and has no “measurement problem”. This means that the main tenet of your account, your "First Principle", is not

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis

2018-05-21 Thread Bruno Marchal
Dear Arturo, This is already my second post of this week, so you might answer to my two posts, and I will comment your possible answer (if necessary) next week. Thank you. > On 20 May 2018, at 19:30, tozziart...@libero.it wrote: > > Dear Bruno, > You talk about "some non mechanical

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis

2018-05-20 Thread tozziarturo
Dear Bruno, You talk about "some non mechanical super-entities (which exist also in the arithmetical reality)". This way of reasoning throws us into the realm of the philosophy of mathematics, in which you clearly pursue a neo-platonism in the traces of Tegmark, Godel, Husserl, Tiles, against

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis

2018-05-20 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi Dai Griffith, Hi Colleagues, > On 17 May 2018, at 13:44, Dai Griffiths wrote: > > What is a 'thing'? > I assume Digital Mechanism all along. I don’t know if it is true, but if true it provides a clear (and tastable) answer. For the staring basic primitive

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis

2018-05-17 Thread Loet Leydesdorff
AJ=en -- Original Message -- From: "Jose Javier Blanco Rivero" <javierwe...@gmail.com> To: "Burgin, Mark" <mbur...@math.ucla.edu> Cc: "Fis," <fis@listas.unizar.es> Sent: 5/17/2018 12:47:04 PM Subject: Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logica

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis

2018-05-17 Thread Dai Griffiths
What is a 'thing'? Perhaps it is more reasonable to think that  only processes exist, and that for human convenience in living in the world we put conceptual membranes around some parts of those processes and call them 'things'. From this point of view we do not have two aspects (things and

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis

2018-05-17 Thread Jose Javier Blanco Rivero
Dear FISers, I recently came across an old interview to W. van Orman Quine and I got an idea -maybe not very original per se. Quine distinguishes two kind of philosophical problems: ontological (those referred to the existence of things) and predicative (what can we say and know about things).

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis

2018-05-17 Thread Søren Brier
oun...@listas.unizar.es> På vegne af Krassimir Markov Sendt: 17. maj 2018 11:33 Til: fis@listas.unizar.es; Burgin, Mark <mbur...@math.ucla.edu> Emne: Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis Dear Mark and FIS Colleagues, First of all. I support the idea of Mark to write a paper an

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis

2018-05-17 Thread Krassimir Markov
] Is information physical? A logical analysis Dear FISers, It was an interesting discussion, in which many highly intelligent and creative individuals participated expressing different points of view. Many interesting ideas were suggested. As a conclusion to this discussion, I would like to suggest

Re: [Fis] [FIS] Is information physical?

2018-05-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
bridge, 1993. Best, Bruno PS That is my second message. Possible comment next week. > > > > >> -- Messaggio originale -- >> Da: Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> >> A: FIS Webinar <fis@listas.unizar.es> >> Data: 14 mag

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis

2018-05-16 Thread Burgin, Mark
Dear FISers, It was an interesting discussion, in which many highly intelligent and creative individuals participated expressing different points of view. Many interesting ideas were suggested. As a conclusion to this discussion, I would like to suggest a logical analysis of the problem

[Fis] Fwd: Re: [FIS] Is information physical?

2018-05-14 Thread tozziarturo
orry again! Messaggio originale -- Da: Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> A: FIS Webinar <fis@listas.unizar.es> Data: 14 maggio 2018 alle 11.48 Oggetto: Re: [Fis] [FIS] Is information physical? Dear Arturo, Dear Colleagues, On 11 May 2018, at 18:36, toz

Re: [Fis] [FIS] Is information physical?

2018-05-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
Dear Arturo, Dear Colleagues, > On 11 May 2018, at 18:36, tozziart...@libero.it wrote: > > Dear Bruno, > I'm sorry, but I cannot agree. > > I take a disagreement as a courtesy to pursue a conversation, which would be boring without them. But, what I say has been proved, peer reviewed by

[Fis] Fwd: Re[2]: [FIS] Is information physical?

2018-05-11 Thread tozziarturo
Messaggio inoltrato Da: tozziart...@libero.it A: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es Data: giovedì, 10 maggio 2018, 03:23PM +02:00 Oggetto: Re[2]: [Fis] [FIS] Is information physical? >Dear Bruno, >You state: >"IF indexical dig

Re: [Fis] [FIS] Is information physical?

2018-05-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
Dear Arturo, > On 10 May 2018, at 15:23, tozziart...@libero.it wrote: > > Dear Bruno, > You state: > "IF indexical digital mechanism is correct in the cognitive science, > THEN “physical” has to be defined entirely in arithmetical term, i.e. > “physical” becomes a mathematical notion. >

Re: [Fis] [FIS] Is information physical?

2018-05-11 Thread Karl Javorszky
Dear Arturo, There were some reports in clinical psychology, about 30 years ago, that relate to the question whether a machine can pretend to be a therapist. That was the time as computers could newly be used in an interactive fashion, and the Rogers techniques were a current discovery. (Rogers

Re: [Fis] [FIS] Is information physical?

2018-05-10 Thread tozziarturo
Dear Bruno, You state: "IF indexical digital mechanism is correct in the cognitive science, THEN “physical” has to be defined entirely in arithmetical term, i.e. “physical” becomes a mathematical notion. ...Indexical digital mechanism is the hypothesis that there is a level of description of

Re: [Fis] [FIS] Is information physical?

2018-05-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
(This mail has been sent previously , but without success. I resend it, with minor changes). Problems due to different accounts. It was my first comment to Mark Burgin new thread “Is information physical?”. Dear Mark, Dear Colleagues, Apology for not answering the mails in the chronological

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? OR Does the information exist without the carrier?

2018-04-28 Thread Loet Leydesdorff
ur...@math.ucla.edu> the movement of the pendulum falling drops of water Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2018 4:47 AM To: fis@listas.unizar.es Subject: Re: [Fis] Is information physical? Dear Colleagues, I would like to suggest the new topic for discussion Is information phy

Re: [Fis] Is information physical?

2018-04-27 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
tozziart...@libero.it Cc : fis@listas.unizar.es Objet : Re: [Fis] Is information physical? OR Does the information exist without the carrier? Dear Folks, I suspect I am past quota for the week. Apologies for that. 1. Work in logic and mathematics is scientific even if mathematicians and logicians some

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? OR Does the information exist without the carrier?

2018-04-27 Thread Louis H Kauffman
e the case of “time”. >>> >>> Does the time really exist? >>> >>> Does the time exist without real regular processes which we may reflect and >>> compare? >>> >>> The time is falling drops of water, the movement of the pendulum, etc. >>&g

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? 'Signs rust.'

2018-04-27 Thread Karl Javorszky
rigine > >De : u...@umces.edu > >Date : 25/04/2018 - 08:14 (PDT) > >À : mbur...@math.ucla.edu > >Cc : fis@listas.unizar.es > >Objet : Re: [Fis] Is information physical? > > > >Dear Mark, > > > >I share your inclination, albeit from a diffe

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? 'Signs rust.'

2018-04-27 Thread Guy A Hoelzer
<mailto:mbur...@math.ucla.edu> Cc : fis@listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es> Objet : Re: [Fis] Is information physical? Dear Mark, I share your inclination, albeit from a different perspective. Consider the two statements: 1. Information is impossible without a physical

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? OR Does the information exist without the carrier?

2018-04-27 Thread tozziarturo
ature, time, etc., exist >>>without objects which these characteristics belong to and may be measured by >>>other objects.   >>>To understand more clearly, let see the case of “time”. >>>Does the time really exist? >>>Does the time exist   w ithout real re

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? OR Does the information exist without the carrier?

2018-04-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
f these processes do not exist, will we have “time”? >> >> >> I think, we have a question in two interrelated explanations: >> >> - Is information physical? >> >> - Does the information exist without the carrier? &g

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? 'Signs rust.'

2018-04-26 Thread Mark Johnson
ot;u...@umces.edu" <u...@umces.edu> Cc: "fis@listas.unizar.es" <fis@listas.unizar.es> Subject: Re: [Fis] Is information physical? 'Signs rust.' Information refers to changes in patterns of energy flow, some slow (frozen), some fast, some quantitative and measurable, some

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? 'Signs rust.'

2018-04-26 Thread joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
time. Best wishes, Joseph >Message d'origine >De : u...@umces.edu >Date : 25/04/2018 - 08:14 (PDT) >À : mbur...@math.ucla.edu >Cc : fis@listas.unizar.es >Objet : Re: [Fis] Is information physical? > >Dear Mark, > >I share your inclination, albeit from a diff

Re: [Fis] Is information physical?

2018-04-25 Thread Ulanowicz, Robert
Dear Mark, I share your inclination, albeit from a different perspective. Consider the two statements: 1. Information is impossible without a physical carrier. 2. Information is impossible without the influence of that which does not exist. There is significant truth in both statements. I

Re: [Fis] Is information physical? OR Does the information exist without the carrier?

2018-04-25 Thread Louis H Kauffman
sical? > > - Does the information exist without the carrier? > > > Friendly greetings > > Krassimir > > > From: Burgin, Mark <mailto:mbur...@math.ucla.edu> > the movement of the pendulum > > falling drops of water > > Sent: Wednesday, Apr

[Fis] Is Information physical?

2018-04-25 Thread Dick Stoute
Mark Burgin has proposed an interesting topic. Here is how I think of it. We need to know the characteristics of an instrument if we are to correctly interpret its output. In this case our perceptual system is the instrument and information is the output. The science of perception indicates

Re: [Fis] Is information physical?

2018-04-25 Thread Karl Javorszky
The question „Is information physical?” relates to the equivalence between two mental/emotional contents of the brain, and can be compared to “Is A = B ?” at first sight. In the form the question is posed, it is rendered in a more empathic fashion in the form “Does A contain a sufficiently large

Re: [Fis] Is information physical?

2018-04-25 Thread Jose Javier Blanco Rivero
Dear all, Following the ideas of Mark, Lou, Krassimir and Arturo, I think it is worth to insist on a proposal I made in this forum a few months ago. That is, the thesis of a general theory of communication media. (Before going on I would like to remark that the concepts used here do not

Re: [Fis] Is information physical?

2018-04-25 Thread Dai Griffiths
Thanks everyone, all very stimulating! On 25/04/18 03:47, Burgin, Mark wrote: Any reasonable person will tell that the textbook contains knowledge This is a metaphor. It is helpful in managing the complex relationships of humans with media, but will lead us into tangles if we believe that it

Re: [Fis] Is information physical?

2018-04-25 Thread Gyorgy Darvas
Hi all, Information is information. There is no reason to bundle it under any other genus. There are physical information! (Cf., my paper at the Vienna conference, 2015.) ... And there are other (non-physical) information. Other approach: Information follows, in certain aspects, some laws of

[Fis] Is information physical? OR Does the information exist without the carrier?

2018-04-25 Thread Krassimir Markov
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2018 4:47 AM To: fis@listas.unizar.es Subject: Re: [Fis] Is information physical? Dear Colleagues, I would like to suggest the new topic for discussion Is information physical? My opinion is presented below: Why some people

Re: [Fis] Is information physical?

2018-04-25 Thread Mark Johnson
Dear Lou and Mark, Thanks for this - it is very important. A quick question: why does it have to one or the other? Does the law of the excluded middle apply to information? Why can't it be both? As a way of extending this, can I suggest that the boundary between the physical and the

Re: [Fis] Is information physical?

2018-04-25 Thread Xueshan Yan
y Pr., 1993. pp. 333~337. From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es <fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es> On Behalf Of Louis H Kauffman Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2018 12:52 PM To: Burgin, Mark <mbur...@math.ucla.edu> Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es Subject: Re: [Fis] Is information physical? Dear

Re: [Fis] Is information physical?

2018-04-24 Thread Louis H Kauffman
Dear Mark, Thank you for suggesting this topic. I concur wholeheartedly with your stand on this matter. Information in the sense that you indicate is pattern that is independent of the particular substrate on which it is ‘carried’. There is a persistent myth in popular scientific culture that

Re: [Fis] Is information physical?

2018-04-24 Thread Burgin, Mark
Dear Colleagues, I would like to suggest the new topic for discussion Is information physical? My opinion is presented below: Why some people erroneously think that information is physical The main reason to think that information is physical is the