Re: [Fis] info meaning

2007-10-12 Thread bob logan
Loet et al - I guess I am not convinced that information and entropy are connected. Entropy in physics has the dimension of energy divided by temperature. Shannon entropy has no physical dimension - it is missing the Boltzman constant. Therefore how can entropy and shannon entropy be

Re: [Fis] info meaning

2007-10-12 Thread Guy A Hoelzer
Bob, If the notions of Entropy and Shannon Information are alternative approaches to characterize the same phenomenon in Nature, then the ways they have been modeled would not necessarily reveal an underlying and fundamental commonality. I think that many of us suspect that this is the case and

Re: [Fis] info meaning

2007-10-12 Thread John Collier
At 09:01 PM 12/10/2007, bob logan wrote: Loet et al - I guess I am not convinced that information and entropy are connected. Entropy in physics has the dimension of energy divided by temperature. Shannon entropy has no physical dimension - it is missing the Boltzman constant. Therefore how can

Re: [Fis] info meaning

2007-10-12 Thread bob logan
hi stan - I think we need to agree to disagree - for me final cause involves purpose or intention. A gas that expands into a larger volume has no intention or purpose and therefore one cannot talk about final cause because there is no agent - I did enjoy your argument but I just cannot buy

[Fis] Info, meaning narrative

2007-10-12 Thread Ted Goranson
Message forwarded from Beth Cardier. I understand It should have appeared a few days ago but for subscription difficulties. Her email is [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Ted +++ Dear FIS colleagues, My name is Beth Cardier, and I am currently researching narrative as information at Melbourne University.

Re: [Fis] info meaning

2007-10-11 Thread bob logan
Dear Colleagues - I have combined my responses to a number of comments (from Ted, Stan and Loet) in one email. My comments are in red and the comments of the others that I am commenting on are in blue. Hi Ted - I did not understand why you clain Kauffman's approach is algrebraic. At the

Re: [Fis] info meaning

2007-10-11 Thread Loet Leydesdorff
Loet - if your claim is true then how do you explain that a random soup of organic chemicals have more Shannon info than an equal number of organic chemicals organized as a living cell where knowledge of some chemicals automatically implies the presence of others and hence have less surprise

Re: SV: [Fis] info meaning

2007-10-07 Thread Robin Faichney
Friday, October 5, 2007, 1:53:51 PM, Loet wrote: Dear colleagues, I agree with a lot of Christophe Menant's last mail, but I think that I can take it a step further. The _expression_ of Bateson "A difference which makes a difference" presumes that there is a system or a series of

Re: [Fis] info meaning

2007-10-07 Thread bob logan
Karl et al - I agree there is lots of value in past FIS discussions of info but as Shannon himself opined It is hardly to be expected that a single concept of information would satisfactorily account for the numerous possible applications of this general field. I only offered one such

Re: [Fis] Info meaning

2007-10-07 Thread bob logan
Hi Stan - interesting ideas - I resonate with the thought that the meaning of info is associated with Aritostle's final cause - cheers Bob On 25-Sep-07, at 4:39 PM, Stanley N. Salthe wrote: First I comment on Pedro's: The information overload theme (in the evolution of social modes of

RE: [Fis] info meaning

2007-10-07 Thread Loet Leydesdorff
Dear Bob and colleagues, Although I know that this comment was made in responding to another comment, let me react here because I think that this is not correct: The point I am making is that organization is a form of information which Shannon theory does not recognize. Shannon's theory is

Re: [Fis] info meaning

2007-10-07 Thread Steven Ericsson-Zenith
. More is available in http://www.mdpi.org/entropy/papers/e5020193.pdf All the best Christophe -Message d'origine- De : Steven Ericsson-Zenith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Envoyé : samedi 6 octobre 2007 11:08 À : Christophe MENANT Objet : Re: TR: SV: [Fis] info meaning Dear Christophe

Re: [Fis] Info meaning

2007-10-07 Thread Stanley N. Salthe
Bob said: Hi Stan - interesting ideas - I resonate with the thought that the meaning of info is associated with Aritostle's final cause - cheers Bob Here I follow up with an extract from a text I am working on at present, just to amplify this a bit more: Finally, what is the justification for

TR: SV: [Fis] info meaning

2007-10-05 Thread Christophe MENANT
: [Fis] info meaning I read Pedro's post differently. What definition of meaning are you using exactly? I was going to express agreement with Pedro too, but I do not agree with either Soren of Christophe's interpretation of Pedro's posting. Can Pedro clarify? And can we be more

RE: SV: [Fis] info meaning

2007-10-05 Thread Loet Leydesdorff
Dear colleagues, I agree with a lot of Christophe Menant's last mail, but I think that I can take it a step further. The expression of Bateson A difference which makes a difference presumes that there is a system or a series of events for which the differences can make a difference. This

Re: [Fis] info meaning

2007-10-04 Thread Pedro Marijuan
Dear colleagues, What if meaning is equivalent to zero? I mean, if we backtrack to the origins of zero, we find those obscure philosophers related to Buddhism in India, many centuries ago (Brahmagupta, 600 ad). It was something difficult to grasp, rather bizarre, the fruit of quite a long

FW: SV: [Fis] info meaning

2007-10-04 Thread Christophe Menant
-ouvertes.fr/hal-00114521/en/ Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 22:13:27 +0200 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: SV: [Fis] info meaning To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; fis@listas.unizar.es Dear Pedro Do I understand you right when I see your models as: 1. There is no meaning in inanimate nature. 2. Meaning

RE: [Fis] info meaning

2007-09-30 Thread Loet Leydesdorff
PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of bob logan (by way of Pedro Marijuan[EMAIL PROTECTED]) Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 2:50 PM To: fis@listas.unizar.es Subject: [Fis] info meaning 12th FIS Discussion Session: ON INFORMATION AND MEANING The Relativity of Information and Its

Re: [Fis] info meaning

2007-09-25 Thread walter\.riofrio
Dear Bob, Pedro and colleagues: This is my first message in FIS list. My name is Walter Riofrio, Associate Professor of Peruvian University Cayetano Heredia in Lima-Peru. My research interests are: (1) Theoretical and Conceptual Analysis in Biology and Natural Sciences; (2) Nature of

[Fis] Info meaning

2007-09-25 Thread Stanley N. Salthe
First I comment on Pedro's: The information overload theme (in the evolution of social modes of communication), is really intriguing. Should we take it, say, in its prima facie? I am inclined to put it into question, at least to have an excuse and try to unturn that pretty stone... The question

Re: [Fis] info meaning

2007-09-24 Thread Pedro Marijuan
Dear Bob and colleagues, Thanks for the scholarly work. It was nice reading the vast landscape, historical and otherwise, you have covered around that new biotic interpretation of information as Propagating Organization or POE. Perhaps in this list we have already arrived to a truce on