Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies! Reply to JC June 13 note

2015-07-01 Thread Joseph Brenner
Dear John,

 

I am pleased to return to the discussion of two, related points in your note: 
1) scientists such as Scott Muller have been motivated by empirical issues 
which have produced valid results, not by dogma; 2) I am not working on 
empirical problems.

 

My position is that my work on real problems starts where some of that on 
‘empirical’ problems leaves off, and I will try to use your reference to Scott 
Muller’s Asymmetry: The Foundation of Information (2007, Springer) to 
illustrate this. First, I should recommend the book for its excellent summary 
of the relationship between Shannon and Boltzmann entropy. I also fully agree 
with Muller that “information is an objective quantity capable of relational 
representation”, and that there is a material manifestation of an inverse 
relationship between symmetry and entropy. However, Terrence Deacon, as we all 
know, has since shown that the above thermodynamic/statistical-mechanical view 
can and must be supplemented by the addition of Darwinian ‘entropy’ for real 
biological systems.

 

I also agree with Muller when he says that probability must be an objective, 
physical property and his rejection of any subjective interpretation. However, 
(‘dogma’? ‘standard view’?), he states that the only legitimate scientific use 
of probability is as a property of a dynamic mass system, a collective within 
which some attribute may be found (Von Mises). Isolated events have no 
probabilistic significance. 

 

Such a position ignores the interaction between two or some small number of 
real events or processes, in which probability must be defined differently and 
has different role. I suggest that probability is a measure of their respective 
capacity (potential) for subsequent actualization or potentialization. In his 
discussion of causal processes that generate and destroy information, Muller 
correctly relates symmetry breaking to the resolution of potentiality into 
actuality but he, like Aristotle, does not see the necessity for expressing the 
contrary movement. This is part of the basis of my critique of ‘it-from-bit’ 
and my ‘proposal’ for going beyond it.

 

Thank you and best regards,

 

Joseph

  - Original Message - 
  From: John Collier 
  To: Joseph Brenner 
  Cc: fis 
  Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2015 12:45 PM
  Subject: RE: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!


  Dear Joseph, List,

   

  I am running past my allotment, so I will shut up after this for a while. (I 
have to go to California for a workshop in any case, and won’t have much 
internet access for the two days I am traveling.) 

   

  The “it from bit” view was developed (after its origins for other reasons I 
will come to) partly to pose questions about black holes that cannot be posed 
in terms of energy. It also applies to any horizon, including event and 
particle horizons. Whatever the answer, it permits well-posed questions that 
have not been able to be posed in other terms, at least so far.

   

  The “it from bit” view is independent of, but strongly recommends a 
computational view. I have argued for a transfer of information view of 
causation on independent philosophical grounds as a development of Russell’s 
at-at view of causation. The two approaches converge nicely.

   

  My understanding of the “it from bit” view does not require a binary logic of 
causation, but emergence of information comes from bifurcations (Layzer, 
Frautschi, Collier, among others). So that is another happy convergence of two 
approaches. I see no reason why trifurcations and other higher order splits 
might not be possible, if unlikely. This is an empirical question, but makes no 
difference to the underlying mathematics, which takes base 2 logarithms by 
convention, for convenience. I don’t see this issue as empirical in itself, but 
the convenience has some empirical force.

   

  The stronger “it from bit” view that applies to everything was due originally 
to Wheeler, not any of the physicists mentioned so far, and supported by 
Gell-Mann. Their reason is that empirical values in quantum mechanics often 
have been shown to arise from asymmetries, and they assume this will continue 
(proton spin is one notable current problem, but the problem is being pursued 
by this method, to the best of my understanding). My former student Scott 
Muller was able to show that asymmetries in a system assign a unique 
information content in the it from bit sense. In any case, the view has an 
empirical motivation, and has produced empirically satisfying results, if not 
universally so far.

   

  With all due respect, Joseph, the scientists I have mentioned have been 
motivated by empirical issues (problems), not dogma, but you are not working on 
empirical problems. I have argued that the approach is motivated primarily by 
empirical issues, and it is simply wrong to attribute it to “authority”, since 
anyone in principle has access to the empirical issues

Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

2015-06-15 Thread Jeremy Sherman
Deacon addressed this all very clearly in his January paper. I'm guessing
for most FIS members his argument changed little or nothing.

On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 12:59 PM, Stanley N Salthe ssal...@binghamton.edu
wrote:

 Loet -- Well, so you favor the definition of information as an invention
 of Western technology related to communication.  Others prefer to define
 information in such a way that it emerges into the world with biology -- in
 the genetic system.  Still others define information in such a way that it
 can be viewed as a physical quantity, perhaps a measure of the importance
 of context in any physical interaction.  As a generalizer, I prefer the
 latter, giving us the subsumptive hierarchy:

  Information ~ {context {material code {uncertainty}}}

 STAN

 On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 1:46 PM, Loet Leydesdorff l...@leydesdorff.net
 wrote:

 I would add another possibility -- information does not appear in the
 universe until it is manipulated by modern human society as a commodity.



 Yes, Stan, this makes sense to me: information (in bits) can be
 considered as a measurement of the expected uncertainty. It is *yet*
 meaning-free, but it can be provided with meaning in a system of reference
 – such as a discourse.



 For example, {50%,50%} contains 1 bit of information. Thus, if we mix 50
 euro coins with 50 coins of a dollar or we group 50 black cats with 50
 white ones, the uncertainty is one bit of information. This does not tell
 us anything about the cats themselves as in a biology.



 During the recent conference in Vienna, I was amazed how many of our
 colleagues wish to ground information in physics. However, the
 information-theoretical evaluation seems mathematical to me. The
 mathematical notion of entropy is different from the physical one. The
 physical one is only valid for the physico-chemical system of momenta and
 energy.



 When I exchange the 50 dollars into 50 euros, the expected information
 content of the distribution of coins goes from one to zero bits, but this
 is not thermodynamic entropy. The physics of the exchange process are
 external to the informational-theoretical evaluation.



 I know that you wish to express this with hierarchies. Information can be
 measured at each level or as mutual information between them. But what the
 information means, depends on the specific systems of reference.



 Best,

 Loet


 --

 Loet Leydesdorff

 *Emeritus* University of Amsterdam
 Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)

 l...@leydesdorff.net ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/
 Honorary Professor, SPRU, http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/University of
 Sussex;

 Guest Professor Zhejiang Univ. http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/,
 Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, ISTIC,
 http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.htmlBeijing;

 Visiting Professor, Birkbeck http://www.bbk.ac.uk/, University of
 London;

 http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYJhl=en



 *From:* Fis [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] *On Behalf Of *Stanley
 N Salthe
 *Sent:* Sunday, June 14, 2015 3:14 PM

 *To:* fis
 *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!



 Krassimir -- Thanks. Now I see what your objection is.  You do not agree
 with the Wheeler concept that information was he basis upon which
 everything else was founded. Rather, you see it as appearing along with
 matter. Or you might consider that it appeared 'along with form', in which
 case information doesn't appear in the universe until life makes it
 appearance.  I would add another possibility -- information does not appear
 in the universe until it is manipulated by modern human society as a
 commodity.



 STAN



 On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Krassimir Markov mar...@foibg.com
 wrote:

 Dear John and Stan,

 What is cause, and what is result? This is the question.

 If we not assume information and informational processes as secondary
 effect from activity of living mater,  it is not possible to proof anything
 and we have to believe that proposed models maybe are truth. We have to
 trust to Author but not to experiments.

 Information has to be included not in the beginning of the hierarchy – at
 least in the middle where living mater appear.

 Sorry that my post was apprehended as careless!

 Friendly regards

 Krassimir











 *From:* Stanley N Salthe ssal...@binghamton.edu

 *Sent:* Saturday, June 13, 2015 3:30 PM

 *To:* Krassimir Markov mar...@foibg.com

 *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!



 Krassimir -- ???  I fail to understand your assertion.  This (and any
 hierarchy) is a logical formulation, allowing us to allocate influences
 from various aspects of nature in an orderly manner.



 So, please explain further your careless assertion!



 STAN



 On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Krassimir Markov mar...@foibg.com
 wrote:

 Dear John and Stan,

 Your both hierarchies are good only if you believe in God

Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

2015-06-15 Thread Stanley N Salthe
Loet -- Well, so you favor the definition of information as an invention of
Western technology related to communication.  Others prefer to define
information in such a way that it emerges into the world with biology -- in
the genetic system.  Still others define information in such a way that it
can be viewed as a physical quantity, perhaps a measure of the importance
of context in any physical interaction.  As a generalizer, I prefer the
latter, giving us the subsumptive hierarchy:

 Information ~ {context {material code {uncertainty}}}

STAN

On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 1:46 PM, Loet Leydesdorff l...@leydesdorff.net
wrote:

 I would add another possibility -- information does not appear in the
 universe until it is manipulated by modern human society as a commodity.



 Yes, Stan, this makes sense to me: information (in bits) can be considered
 as a measurement of the expected uncertainty. It is *yet* meaning-free,
 but it can be provided with meaning in a system of reference – such as a
 discourse.



 For example, {50%,50%} contains 1 bit of information. Thus, if we mix 50
 euro coins with 50 coins of a dollar or we group 50 black cats with 50
 white ones, the uncertainty is one bit of information. This does not tell
 us anything about the cats themselves as in a biology.



 During the recent conference in Vienna, I was amazed how many of our
 colleagues wish to ground information in physics. However, the
 information-theoretical evaluation seems mathematical to me. The
 mathematical notion of entropy is different from the physical one. The
 physical one is only valid for the physico-chemical system of momenta and
 energy.



 When I exchange the 50 dollars into 50 euros, the expected information
 content of the distribution of coins goes from one to zero bits, but this
 is not thermodynamic entropy. The physics of the exchange process are
 external to the informational-theoretical evaluation.



 I know that you wish to express this with hierarchies. Information can be
 measured at each level or as mutual information between them. But what the
 information means, depends on the specific systems of reference.



 Best,

 Loet


 --

 Loet Leydesdorff

 *Emeritus* University of Amsterdam
 Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)

 l...@leydesdorff.net ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/
 Honorary Professor, SPRU, http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/University of
 Sussex;

 Guest Professor Zhejiang Univ. http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/,
 Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, ISTIC,
 http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.htmlBeijing;

 Visiting Professor, Birkbeck http://www.bbk.ac.uk/, University of
 London;

 http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYJhl=en



 *From:* Fis [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] *On Behalf Of *Stanley
 N Salthe
 *Sent:* Sunday, June 14, 2015 3:14 PM

 *To:* fis
 *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!



 Krassimir -- Thanks. Now I see what your objection is.  You do not agree
 with the Wheeler concept that information was he basis upon which
 everything else was founded. Rather, you see it as appearing along with
 matter. Or you might consider that it appeared 'along with form', in which
 case information doesn't appear in the universe until life makes it
 appearance.  I would add another possibility -- information does not appear
 in the universe until it is manipulated by modern human society as a
 commodity.



 STAN



 On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Krassimir Markov mar...@foibg.com
 wrote:

 Dear John and Stan,

 What is cause, and what is result? This is the question.

 If we not assume information and informational processes as secondary
 effect from activity of living mater,  it is not possible to proof anything
 and we have to believe that proposed models maybe are truth. We have to
 trust to Author but not to experiments.

 Information has to be included not in the beginning of the hierarchy – at
 least in the middle where living mater appear.

 Sorry that my post was apprehended as careless!

 Friendly regards

 Krassimir











 *From:* Stanley N Salthe ssal...@binghamton.edu

 *Sent:* Saturday, June 13, 2015 3:30 PM

 *To:* Krassimir Markov mar...@foibg.com

 *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!



 Krassimir -- ???  I fail to understand your assertion.  This (and any
 hierarchy) is a logical formulation, allowing us to allocate influences
 from various aspects of nature in an orderly manner.



 So, please explain further your careless assertion!



 STAN



 On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Krassimir Markov mar...@foibg.com
 wrote:

 Dear John and Stan,

 Your both hierarchies are good only if you believe in God.

 But this is believe, not science.

 Sorry, nothing personal!

 Friendly regards

 Krassimir









 *From:* John Collier colli...@ukzn.ac.za

 *Sent:* Friday, June 12, 2015 5:02 PM

 *To:* Stanley N Salthe ssal...@binghamton.edu ; fis
 fis

Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

2015-06-13 Thread Francesco Rizzo
Caro John e cari Tutti,
a conforto dell'e-mail inviata questa mattina, ricordo che all'INTERNO dei
buchi neri si avrebbe una minore entropia (o una maggiore neg-entropia)
rispetto alla maggiore entropia (o una maggiore neg-entropia) ESTERNA.
Tutto ciò deve essere bilanciato da una maggiore INFORMAZIONE interna.
Quindi i buchi neri evaporano INFORMAZIONE. L'asimmetria tra entropia
ESTERNA e INTERNA è proprio la causa di questa produzione di INFORMAZIONE.
Non ho parlato di orizzonte degli eventi per essere (più) schematico e
semplice.
Scusate.
Francesco.

2015-06-13 12:45 GMT+02:00 John Collier colli...@ukzn.ac.za:

  Dear Joseph, List,



 I am running past my allotment, so I will shut up after this for a while.
 (I have to go to California for a workshop in any case, and won’t have much
 internet access for the two days I am traveling.)



 The “it from bit” view was developed (after its origins for other reasons
 I will come to) partly to pose questions about black holes that cannot be
 posed in terms of energy. It also applies to any horizon, including event
 and particle horizons. Whatever the answer, it permits well-posed questions
 that have not been able to be posed in other terms, at least so far.



 The “it from bit” view is independent of, but strongly recommends a
 computational view. I have argued for a transfer of information view of
 causation on independent philosophical grounds as a development of
 Russell’s at-at view of causation. The two approaches converge nicely.



 My understanding of the “it from bit” view does not require a binary logic
 of causation, but emergence of information comes from bifurcations (Layzer,
 Frautschi, Collier, among others). So that is another happy convergence of
 two approaches. I see no reason why trifurcations and other higher order
 splits might not be possible, if unlikely. This is an empirical question,
 but makes no difference to the underlying mathematics, which takes base 2
 logarithms by convention, for convenience. I don’t see this issue as
 empirical in itself, but the convenience has some empirical force.



 The stronger “it from bit” view that applies to everything was due
 originally to Wheeler, not any of the physicists mentioned so far, and
 supported by Gell-Mann. Their reason is that empirical values in quantum
 mechanics often have been shown to arise from asymmetries, and they assume
 this will continue (proton spin is one notable current problem, but the
 problem is being pursued by this method, to the best of my understanding).
 My former student Scott Muller was able to show that asymmetries in a
 system assign a unique information content in the it from bit sense. In any
 case, the view has an empirical motivation, and has produced empirically
 satisfying results, if not universally so far.



 With all due respect, Joseph, the scientists I have mentioned have been
 motivated by empirical issues (problems), not dogma, but you are not
 working on empirical problems. I have argued that the approach is motivated
 primarily by empirical issues, and it is simply wrong to attribute it to
 “authority”, since anyone in principle has access to the empirical issues
 and can make their own proposals. I have not seen these forthcoming for the
 issues involved.



 I will shut up now.



 Regards,

 John



 *From:* Fis [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] *On Behalf Of *Joseph
 Brenner
 *Sent:* June 13, 2015 10:16 AM
 *To:* fis
 *Subject:* [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!





 - Original Message -

 *From:* Joseph Brenner joe.bren...@bluewin.ch

 *To:* fis fis@listas.unizar.es

 *Sent:* Saturday, June 13, 2015 10:13 AM

 *Subject:* Fw: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!



 Dear Colleagues,



 I completely agree with Krassimir's position and on the importance of the
 issue on which it taken. Neither he nor I wish to say that there cannot be
 models and insights for science in religious beliefs, such as the Kabbala,
 but then John's diagram would be more appropriate if it had *En Sof* at
 the center rather than It-from-Bit.



 The statement It-from-Bit is just information, further,
 requires analysis: do we 1) accept this as dogma, including the implied
 limitation of information to separable binary entities? or 2) assume that
 the universe is constituted by complex informational processes, in which
 the term 'It-from-Bit' is misleading at best, and should be avoided?



 I feel particularly uncomfortable when dogmatic computational views such
 as those of Lloyd and Davies are presented as authoritative without
 comment, except by appeal to the authority of 'some physicists'. Those
 FISers who would like to see a reasonably considered rebuttal might look at
 my article in *Information*: The Logic of the Physics of Information.



 Best wishes,



 Joseph





 - Original Message -

 *From:* Krassimir Markov mar...@foibg.com

 *To:* John Collier colli...@ukzn.ac.za ; Stanley N

Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

2015-06-13 Thread John Collier
Paul Davies believes in something like that. The other “it from bit”ers, no. So 
I don’t know why you say that, Krassimir. I took the structure below directly 
from uses that appear in scientific sources, not from some a priori 
consideration. Each nesting generates hypotheses that can be tested (and has). 
I find the unification, which involves similar methods at each nesting, 
attractive methodologically. Not everyone does. But I don’t think it is more 
than the sort of usual abductive inference that is common in science. The 
proof, of course, is in the productivity in producing testable and eventually 
tested hypotheses, not in any a priori belief.

John

From: Krassimir Markov [mailto:mar...@foibg.com]
Sent: June 12, 2015 11:19 PM
To: John Collier; Stanley N Salthe; fis
Subject: Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

Dear John and Stan,
Your both hierarchies are good only if you believe in God.
But this is believe, not science.
Sorry, nothing personal!
Friendly regards
Krassimir




From: John Colliermailto:colli...@ukzn.ac.za
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 5:02 PM
To: Stanley N Salthemailto:ssal...@binghamton.edu ; 
fismailto:fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

Not quite the same hierarchy, but similar:

[cid:image001.png@01D0A5BE.4B3DB950]

It from bit is just information, which is fundamental, on Seth Lloyd’s 
computational view of nature. Paul Davies and some other physicists agree with 
this.
Chemical information is negentropic, and hierarchical in most physiological 
systems.

John

From: Fis [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Stanley N Salthe
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 3:40 PM
To: fis
Subject: Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

Pedro -- Your list:

physical, biological, social, and Informational

is implicitly a hierarchy -- in fact, a subsumptive hierarchy, with the 
physical subsuming the biological and the biological subsuming the social.  But 
where should information appear?  Following Wheeler, we should have:

{informational {physicochemical {biological {social

STAN

On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 5:34 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan 
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.esmailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es wrote:
Thanks, Ken. I think your previous message and this one are drawing sort of the 
border-lines of the discussion. Achieving a comprehensive view on the 
interrelationship between computation and information is an essential matter. 
In my opinion, and following the Vienna discussions, whenever life cycles are 
involved and meaningfully touched, there is info; while the mere info 
circulation according to fixed rules and not impinging on any life-cycle 
relevant aspect, may be taken as computation. The distinction between both may 
help to consider more clearly the relationship between the four great domains 
of sceince: physical, biological, social, and Informational. If we adopt a 
pan-computationalist stance, the information turn of societies, of 
bioinformation, neuroinformation, etc. merely reduces to applying computer 
technologies. I think this would be a painful error, repeating the big mistake 
of 60s-70s, when people band-wagon to developed the sciences of the artificial 
and reduced the nascent info science to library science. People like Alex 
Pentland (his social physics 2014) are again taking the wrong way... Anyhow, 
it was nicer talking face to face as we did in the past conference!

best ---Pedro

Ken Herold wrote:
FIS:

Sorry to have been too disruptive in my restarting discussion post--I did not 
intend to substitute for the Information Science thread an alternative way of 
philosophy or computing.  The references I listed are indicative of some bad 
thinking as well as good ideas to reflect upon.  Our focus is information and I 
would like to hear how you might believe the formal relational scheme of 
Rosenbloom could be helpful?

Ken

--
Ken Herold
Director, Library Information Systems
Hamilton College
198 College Hill Road
Clinton, NY 13323
315-859-4487tel:315-859-4487
kher...@hamilton.edumailto:kher...@hamilton.edu 
mailto:kher...@hamilton.edumailto:kher...@hamilton.edu


--
-
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526tel:%2B34%20976%2071%203526 ( 6818)
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.esmailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
-

___
Fis mailing list
Fis@listas.unizar.esmailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis


___
Fis mailing list
Fis@listas.unizar.esmailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es
http

[Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

2015-06-13 Thread Joseph Brenner

- Original Message - 
From: Joseph Brenner 
To: fis 
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2015 10:13 AM
Subject: Fw: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!


Dear Colleagues,

I completely agree with Krassimir's position and on the importance of the issue 
on which it taken. Neither he nor I wish to say that there cannot be models and 
insights for science in religious beliefs, such as the Kabbala, but then John's 
diagram would be more appropriate if it had En Sof at the center rather than 
It-from-Bit.

The statement It-from-Bit is just information, further, requires analysis: do 
we 1) accept this as dogma, including the implied limitation of information to 
separable binary entities? or 2) assume that the universe is constituted by 
complex informational processes, in which the term 'It-from-Bit' is misleading 
at best, and should be avoided?

I feel particularly uncomfortable when dogmatic computational views such as 
those of Lloyd and Davies are presented as authoritative without comment, 
except by appeal to the authority of 'some physicists'. Those FISers who would 
like to see a reasonably considered rebuttal might look at my article in 
Information: The Logic of the Physics of Information.

Best wishes,

Joseph


- Original Message - 
From: Krassimir Markov 
To: John Collier ; Stanley N Salthe ; fis 
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!


Dear John and Stan,
Your two hierarchies are good only if you believe in God.
But this is belief, not science.
Sorry, nothing personal!
Friendly regards
Krassimir




From: John Collier 
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 5:02 PM
To: Stanley N Salthe ; fis 
Subject: Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

Not quite the same hierarchy, but similar:

 



 

It from bit is just information, which is fundamental, on Seth Lloyd’s 
computational view of nature. Paul Davies and some other physicists agree with 
this.

Chemical information is negentropic, and hierarchical in most physiological 
systems.

 

John

 

From: Fis [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Stanley N Salthe
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 3:40 PM
To: fis
Subject: Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

 

Pedro -- Your list:

 

physical, biological, social, and Informational

 

is implicitly a hierarchy -- in fact, a subsumptive hierarchy, with the 
physical subsuming the biological and the biological subsuming the social.  But 
where should information appear?  Following Wheeler, we should have:

 

{informational {physicochemical {biological {social

 

STAN

 

On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 5:34 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es 
wrote:

Thanks, Ken. I think your previous message and this one are drawing sort of the 
border-lines of the discussion. Achieving a comprehensive view on the 
interrelationship between computation and information is an essential matter. 
In my opinion, and following the Vienna discussions, whenever life cycles are 
involved and meaningfully touched, there is info; while the mere info 
circulation according to fixed rules and not impinging on any life-cycle 
relevant aspect, may be taken as computation. The distinction between both may 
help to consider more clearly the relationship between the four great domains 
of sceince: physical, biological, social, and Informational. If we adopt a 
pan-computationalist stance, the information turn of societies, of 
bioinformation, neuroinformation, etc. merely reduces to applying computer 
technologies. I think this would be a painful error, repeating the big mistake 
of 60s-70s, when people band-wagon to developed the sciences of the artificial 
and reduced the nascent info science to library science. People like Alex 
Pentland (his social physics 2014) are again taking the wrong way... Anyhow, 
it was nicer talking face to face as we did in the past conference!

best ---Pedro

Ken Herold wrote:

FIS:

Sorry to have been too disruptive in my restarting discussion post--I did not 
intend to substitute for the Information Science thread an alternative way of 
philosophy or computing.  The references I listed are indicative of some bad 
thinking as well as good ideas to reflect upon.  Our focus is information and I 
would like to hear how you might believe the formal relational scheme of 
Rosenbloom could be helpful?

Ken

-- 
Ken Herold
Director, Library Information Systems
Hamilton College
198 College Hill Road
Clinton, NY 13323
315-859-4487
kher...@hamilton.edu mailto:kher...@hamilton.edu



-- 
-
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 ( 6818)
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan

Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

2015-06-13 Thread John Collier
Dear Joseph, List,

I am running past my allotment, so I will shut up after this for a while. (I 
have to go to California for a workshop in any case, and won’t have much 
internet access for the two days I am traveling.)

The “it from bit” view was developed (after its origins for other reasons I 
will come to) partly to pose questions about black holes that cannot be posed 
in terms of energy. It also applies to any horizon, including event and 
particle horizons. Whatever the answer, it permits well-posed questions that 
have not been able to be posed in other terms, at least so far.

The “it from bit” view is independent of, but strongly recommends a 
computational view. I have argued for a transfer of information view of 
causation on independent philosophical grounds as a development of Russell’s 
at-at view of causation. The two approaches converge nicely.

My understanding of the “it from bit” view does not require a binary logic of 
causation, but emergence of information comes from bifurcations (Layzer, 
Frautschi, Collier, among others). So that is another happy convergence of two 
approaches. I see no reason why trifurcations and other higher order splits 
might not be possible, if unlikely. This is an empirical question, but makes no 
difference to the underlying mathematics, which takes base 2 logarithms by 
convention, for convenience. I don’t see this issue as empirical in itself, but 
the convenience has some empirical force.

The stronger “it from bit” view that applies to everything was due originally 
to Wheeler, not any of the physicists mentioned so far, and supported by 
Gell-Mann. Their reason is that empirical values in quantum mechanics often 
have been shown to arise from asymmetries, and they assume this will continue 
(proton spin is one notable current problem, but the problem is being pursued 
by this method, to the best of my understanding). My former student Scott 
Muller was able to show that asymmetries in a system assign a unique 
information content in the it from bit sense. In any case, the view has an 
empirical motivation, and has produced empirically satisfying results, if not 
universally so far.

With all due respect, Joseph, the scientists I have mentioned have been 
motivated by empirical issues (problems), not dogma, but you are not working on 
empirical problems. I have argued that the approach is motivated primarily by 
empirical issues, and it is simply wrong to attribute it to “authority”, since 
anyone in principle has access to the empirical issues and can make their own 
proposals. I have not seen these forthcoming for the issues involved.

I will shut up now.

Regards,
John

From: Fis [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Joseph Brenner
Sent: June 13, 2015 10:16 AM
To: fis
Subject: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!


- Original Message -
From: Joseph Brennermailto:joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
To: fismailto:fis@listas.unizar.es
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2015 10:13 AM
Subject: Fw: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

Dear Colleagues,

I completely agree with Krassimir's position and on the importance of the issue 
on which it taken. Neither he nor I wish to say that there cannot be models and 
insights for science in religious beliefs, such as the Kabbala, but then John's 
diagram would be more appropriate if it had En Sof at the center rather than 
It-from-Bit.

The statement It-from-Bit is just information, further, requires analysis: do 
we 1) accept this as dogma, including the implied limitation of information to 
separable binary entities? or 2) assume that the universe is constituted by 
complex informational processes, in which the term 'It-from-Bit' is misleading 
at best, and should be avoided?

I feel particularly uncomfortable when dogmatic computational views such as 
those of Lloyd and Davies are presented as authoritative without comment, 
except by appeal to the authority of 'some physicists'. Those FISers who would 
like to see a reasonably considered rebuttal might look at my article in 
Information: The Logic of the Physics of Information.

Best wishes,

Joseph


- Original Message -
From: Krassimir Markovmailto:mar...@foibg.com
To: John Colliermailto:colli...@ukzn.ac.za ; Stanley N 
Salthemailto:ssal...@binghamton.edu ; fismailto:fis@listas.unizar.es
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

Dear John and Stan,
Your two hierarchies are good only if you believe in God.
But this is belief, not science.
Sorry, nothing personal!
Friendly regards
Krassimir




From: John Colliermailto:colli...@ukzn.ac.za
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 5:02 PM
To: Stanley N Salthemailto:ssal...@binghamton.edu ; 
fismailto:fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

Not quite the same hierarchy, but similar:

[cid:image001.png@01D0A5D6.D997C110]

It from bit is just information

Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

2015-06-12 Thread Pedro C. Marijuan
Thanks, Ken. I think your previous message and this one are drawing sort 
of the border-lines of the discussion. Achieving a comprehensive view on 
the interrelationship between computation and information is an 
essential matter. In my opinion, and following the Vienna discussions, 
whenever life cycles are involved and meaningfully touched, there is 
info; while the mere info circulation according to fixed rules and not 
impinging on any life-cycle relevant aspect, may be taken as 
computation. The distinction between both may help to consider more 
clearly the relationship between the four great domains of sceince: 
physical, biological, social, and Informational. If we adopt a 
pan-computationalist stance, the information turn of societies, of 
bioinformation, neuroinformation, etc. merely reduces to applying 
computer technologies. I think this would be a painful error, repeating 
the big mistake of 60s-70s, when people band-wagon to developed the 
sciences of the artificial and reduced the nascent info science to 
library science. People like Alex Pentland (his social physics 2014) 
are again taking the wrong way... Anyhow, it was nicer talking face to 
face as we did in the past conference!


best ---Pedro

Ken Herold wrote:

FIS:

Sorry to have been too disruptive in my restarting discussion post--I 
did not intend to substitute for the Information Science thread an 
alternative way of philosophy or computing.  The references I listed 
are indicative of some bad thinking as well as good ideas to reflect 
upon.  Our focus is information and I would like to hear how you might 
believe the formal relational scheme of Rosenbloom could be helpful?


Ken

--
Ken Herold
Director, Library Information Systems
Hamilton College
198 College Hill Road
Clinton, NY 13323
315-859-4487
kher...@hamilton.edu mailto:kher...@hamilton.edu



--
-
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 ( 6818)
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
-

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Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

2015-06-12 Thread Krassimir Markov
Dear John and Stan,
Your both hierarchies are good only if you believe in God.
But this is believe, not science.
Sorry, nothing personal!
Friendly regards
Krassimir




From: John Collier 
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 5:02 PM
To: Stanley N Salthe ; fis 
Subject: Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

Not quite the same hierarchy, but similar:

 



 

It from bit is just information, which is fundamental, on Seth Lloyd’s 
computational view of nature. Paul Davies and some other physicists agree with 
this.

Chemical information is negentropic, and hierarchical in most physiological 
systems.

 

John

 

From: Fis [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Stanley N Salthe
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 3:40 PM
To: fis
Subject: Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

 

Pedro -- Your list:

 

physical, biological, social, and Informational

 

is implicitly a hierarchy -- in fact, a subsumptive hierarchy, with the 
physical subsuming the biological and the biological subsuming the social.  But 
where should information appear?  Following Wheeler, we should have:

 

{informational {physicochemical {biological {social

 

STAN

 

On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 5:34 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es 
wrote:

Thanks, Ken. I think your previous message and this one are drawing sort of the 
border-lines of the discussion. Achieving a comprehensive view on the 
interrelationship between computation and information is an essential matter. 
In my opinion, and following the Vienna discussions, whenever life cycles are 
involved and meaningfully touched, there is info; while the mere info 
circulation according to fixed rules and not impinging on any life-cycle 
relevant aspect, may be taken as computation. The distinction between both may 
help to consider more clearly the relationship between the four great domains 
of sceince: physical, biological, social, and Informational. If we adopt a 
pan-computationalist stance, the information turn of societies, of 
bioinformation, neuroinformation, etc. merely reduces to applying computer 
technologies. I think this would be a painful error, repeating the big mistake 
of 60s-70s, when people band-wagon to developed the sciences of the artificial 
and reduced the nascent info science to library science. People like Alex 
Pentland (his social physics 2014) are again taking the wrong way... Anyhow, 
it was nicer talking face to face as we did in the past conference!

best ---Pedro

Ken Herold wrote:

FIS:

Sorry to have been too disruptive in my restarting discussion post--I did not 
intend to substitute for the Information Science thread an alternative way of 
philosophy or computing.  The references I listed are indicative of some bad 
thinking as well as good ideas to reflect upon.  Our focus is information and I 
would like to hear how you might believe the formal relational scheme of 
Rosenbloom could be helpful?

Ken

-- 
Ken Herold
Director, Library Information Systems
Hamilton College
198 College Hill Road
Clinton, NY 13323
315-859-4487
kher...@hamilton.edu mailto:kher...@hamilton.edu



-- 
-
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 ( 6818)
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
-

___
Fis mailing list
Fis@listas.unizar.es
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

 




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Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

2015-06-12 Thread Francesco Rizzo
Cari colleghi,
distinguere, separare o, peggio, contrapporre è pericoloso e contrasta con
l'armonia meravigliosa che governa ll mondo. A PRESCINDERE CHE SI CREDA O
MENO in una in una Intelligenza trascendente la natura umana (io, ad
esempio, credo in Dio che non finisce mai di stupirci e sorprenderci). In
questo contesto epistemologico ed ermeneutico il computo o calcolo non è
altro che una singolare caso o categoria di informazione. Naturalmente,
questo è quel che penso io e rassegno al Vostro giudizio.
Un abbraccio per Tutti, nella convinzione che nessuno possegga una verità
assoluta, eterna e immutabile.
Francesco Rizzo.

2015-06-12 23:18 GMT+02:00 Krassimir Markov mar...@foibg.com:

   Dear John and Stan,
 Your both hierarchies are good only if you believe in God.
 But this is believe, not science.
 Sorry, nothing personal!
 Friendly regards
 Krassimir




  *From:* John Collier colli...@ukzn.ac.za
 *Sent:* Friday, June 12, 2015 5:02 PM
 *To:* Stanley N Salthe ssal...@binghamton.edu ; fis
 fis@listas.unizar.es
 *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!


 Not quite the same hierarchy, but similar:





 It from bit is just information, which is fundamental, on Seth Lloyd’s
 computational view of nature. Paul Davies and some other physicists agree
 with this.

 Chemical information is negentropic, and hierarchical in most
 physiological systems.



 John



 *From:* Fis [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] *On Behalf Of *Stanley
 N Salthe
 *Sent:* Friday, June 12, 2015 3:40 PM
 *To:* fis
 *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!



 Pedro -- Your list:



 physical, biological, social, and Informational



 is implicitly a hierarchy -- in fact, a subsumptive hierarchy, with the
 physical subsuming the biological and the biological subsuming the social.
 But where should information appear?  Following Wheeler, we should have:



 {informational {physicochemical {biological {social



 STAN



 On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 5:34 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan 
 pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es wrote:

 Thanks, Ken. I think your previous message and this one are drawing sort
 of the border-lines of the discussion. Achieving a comprehensive view on
 the interrelationship between computation and information is an essential
 matter. In my opinion, and following the Vienna discussions, whenever life
 cycles are involved and meaningfully touched, there is info; while the
 mere info circulation according to fixed rules and not impinging on any
 life-cycle relevant aspect, may be taken as computation. The distinction
 between both may help to consider more clearly the relationship between the
 four great domains of sceince: physical, biological, social, and
 Informational. If we adopt a pan-computationalist stance, the information
 turn of societies, of bioinformation, neuroinformation, etc. merely reduces
 to applying computer technologies. I think this would be a painful error,
 repeating the big mistake of 60s-70s, when people band-wagon to developed
 the sciences of the artificial and reduced the nascent info science to
 library science. People like Alex Pentland (his social physics 2014) are
 again taking the wrong way... Anyhow, it was nicer talking face to face as
 we did in the past conference!

 best ---Pedro

 Ken Herold wrote:

 FIS:

 Sorry to have been too disruptive in my restarting discussion post--I did
 not intend to substitute for the Information Science thread an alternative
 way of philosophy or computing.  The references I listed are indicative of
 some bad thinking as well as good ideas to reflect upon.  Our focus is
 information and I would like to hear how you might believe the formal
 relational scheme of Rosenbloom could be helpful?

 Ken

 --
 Ken Herold
 Director, Library Information Systems
 Hamilton College
 198 College Hill Road
 Clinton, NY 13323
 315-859-4487
 kher...@hamilton.edu mailto:kher...@hamilton.edu



 --
 -
 Pedro C. Marijuán
 Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
 Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
 Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
 Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
 50009 Zaragoza, Spain
 Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 ( 6818)
 pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
 http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
 -

 ___
 Fis mailing list
 Fis@listas.unizar.es
 http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis



 --
 ___
 Fis mailing list
 Fis@listas.unizar.es
 http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis


 ___
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 Fis@listas.unizar.es
 http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis


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Fis@listas.unizar.es
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Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

2015-06-12 Thread Stanley N Salthe
Pedro -- Your list:

 physical, biological, social, and Informational

is implicitly a hierarchy -- in fact, a subsumptive hierarchy, with the
physical subsuming the biological and the biological subsuming the social.
But where should information appear?  Following Wheeler, we should have:

{informational {physicochemical {biological {social

STAN

On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 5:34 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan 
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es wrote:

 Thanks, Ken. I think your previous message and this one are drawing sort
 of the border-lines of the discussion. Achieving a comprehensive view on
 the interrelationship between computation and information is an essential
 matter. In my opinion, and following the Vienna discussions, whenever life
 cycles are involved and meaningfully touched, there is info; while the
 mere info circulation according to fixed rules and not impinging on any
 life-cycle relevant aspect, may be taken as computation. The distinction
 between both may help to consider more clearly the relationship between the
 four great domains of sceince: physical, biological, social, and
 Informational. If we adopt a pan-computationalist stance, the information
 turn of societies, of bioinformation, neuroinformation, etc. merely reduces
 to applying computer technologies. I think this would be a painful error,
 repeating the big mistake of 60s-70s, when people band-wagon to developed
 the sciences of the artificial and reduced the nascent info science to
 library science. People like Alex Pentland (his social physics 2014) are
 again taking the wrong way... Anyhow, it was nicer talking face to face as
 we did in the past conference!

 best ---Pedro

 Ken Herold wrote:

 FIS:

 Sorry to have been too disruptive in my restarting discussion post--I did
 not intend to substitute for the Information Science thread an alternative
 way of philosophy or computing.  The references I listed are indicative of
 some bad thinking as well as good ideas to reflect upon.  Our focus is
 information and I would like to hear how you might believe the formal
 relational scheme of Rosenbloom could be helpful?

 Ken

 --
 Ken Herold
 Director, Library Information Systems
 Hamilton College
 198 College Hill Road
 Clinton, NY 13323
 315-859-4487
 kher...@hamilton.edu mailto:kher...@hamilton.edu



 --
 -
 Pedro C. Marijuán
 Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
 Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
 Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
 Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
 50009 Zaragoza, Spain
 Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 ( 6818)
 pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
 http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
 -

 ___
 Fis mailing list
 Fis@listas.unizar.es
 http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

___
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Fis@listas.unizar.es
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis


Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

2015-06-12 Thread John Collier
Not quite the same hierarchy, but similar:

[cid:image001.png@01D0A529.DBE58A40]

It from bit is just information, which is fundamental, on Seth Lloyd’s 
computational view of nature. Paul Davies and some other physicists agree with 
this.
Chemical information is negentropic, and hierarchical in most physiological 
systems.

John

From: Fis [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Stanley N Salthe
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 3:40 PM
To: fis
Subject: Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

Pedro -- Your list:

 physical, biological, social, and Informational

is implicitly a hierarchy -- in fact, a subsumptive hierarchy, with the 
physical subsuming the biological and the biological subsuming the social.  But 
where should information appear?  Following Wheeler, we should have:

{informational {physicochemical {biological {social

STAN

On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 5:34 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan 
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.esmailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es wrote:
Thanks, Ken. I think your previous message and this one are drawing sort of the 
border-lines of the discussion. Achieving a comprehensive view on the 
interrelationship between computation and information is an essential matter. 
In my opinion, and following the Vienna discussions, whenever life cycles are 
involved and meaningfully touched, there is info; while the mere info 
circulation according to fixed rules and not impinging on any life-cycle 
relevant aspect, may be taken as computation. The distinction between both may 
help to consider more clearly the relationship between the four great domains 
of sceince: physical, biological, social, and Informational. If we adopt a 
pan-computationalist stance, the information turn of societies, of 
bioinformation, neuroinformation, etc. merely reduces to applying computer 
technologies. I think this would be a painful error, repeating the big mistake 
of 60s-70s, when people band-wagon to developed the sciences of the artificial 
and reduced the nascent info science to library science. People like Alex 
Pentland (his social physics 2014) are again taking the wrong way... Anyhow, 
it was nicer talking face to face as we did in the past conference!

best ---Pedro

Ken Herold wrote:
FIS:

Sorry to have been too disruptive in my restarting discussion post--I did not 
intend to substitute for the Information Science thread an alternative way of 
philosophy or computing.  The references I listed are indicative of some bad 
thinking as well as good ideas to reflect upon.  Our focus is information and I 
would like to hear how you might believe the formal relational scheme of 
Rosenbloom could be helpful?

Ken

--
Ken Herold
Director, Library Information Systems
Hamilton College
198 College Hill Road
Clinton, NY 13323
315-859-4487tel:315-859-4487
kher...@hamilton.edumailto:kher...@hamilton.edu 
mailto:kher...@hamilton.edumailto:kher...@hamilton.edu


--
-
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526tel:%2B34%20976%2071%203526 ( 6818)
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.esmailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
-

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