Re: [Fis] Physical Informatics… (J.Brenner)
Dear all - my take on this post is that the question of whether physical processes are information is like the question: Is there a sound if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to listen? This is like the Zen koan: what is the sound of one hand clapping If no one is in the forest are the trees information? Well for sure they are trees but as to whether or not they are information that is strictly dependent on the point of view of the respondent. For me they are just trees and here is why I think so. For me information is about a process. The noun information relates to the verb inform. If no one is being informed there is no information. In the same way that if no one or thing is there being loved (verb) their is no love (noun). If no one is engaged in the activity of loving (a verb) there is no love (a noun). If there is no one being informed (a verb) then there is no information (a noun). Now one can talk about an object or a phenomenon having the possibility of informing someone which to my mind is potential information which is what I would call the physical processes that take place in our universe. A book written in Urdu is potential information because an Urdu reader can be informed by it. For me as a non-Urdu speaker there is very little information other than someone went to the trouble of writing out a text with Urdu letters and hence there is probably information there for an Urdu speaker reasoning why would any one make the effort to create such an object unless that person wanted to inform Urdu speakers. Just as one person's food is another person's poison so it is that one person's information is just for another persons merely a physical phenomenon such as processes in nature, ink on paper, sounds or EM signals. Shannon developed a theory of signals in which some of those signals have the ability to inform some recipients. I hope this collection of words has informed you other than giving you the knowledge of my view as to what constitutes information. Thanks to Joseph, Pedro, and Igor for the opportunity to reflect on the nature of information. If you enjoyed my post and would like to learn more about my views on information please send me an email off line and I will send you an email version of my book What is Information? Propagating Organization in the Biosphere, the Symbolosphere, the Technosphere and the Econosphere for free. And now you know what an infomercial is. This was an infomercial because of my offer to share my book with you erudite scholars of FIS whose posts I always enjoy. With kind regards - Bob __ Robert K. Logan Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications On 2014-10-20, at 1:57 PM, PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN FERNANDEZ wrote: - Original Message - From: Joseph Brenner To: Igor Gurevich ; Pedro C. Marijuan ; fis Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 8:40 AM Subject: Re: [Fis] Physical Informatics contains fundamental results which impossible to get only by physical methods Dear Igor, Dear Gerhard and Colleagues, In Igor's summary of his recent work, I read the following absoutely critical statement: It is shown that the expansion of the Universe is the source of information formation, wherein a variety of physical processes in an expanding Universe provide information formation. I take this as meaning that the expansion of the Universe as such does not produce information. Gerhard's formulation is slightly different (my paraphrase): The first assymetry in energy distribution, following the singularity, is the source of information formation. My question is, therefore, how best to combine these insights. For example, we may say that the variety of physical processes are all the consequence of, and subsequently reflect, a first assymetry. It is also interesting to note that the approaches of both Igor and Gerhard imply the emergence of information through the interactional impact (informational interactions) of fundamental forces on particles, extended by Gerhard to somewhat higher levels of organization (life) than Igor. I look forward to further discussion of these fundamental issues. Sincerely, Joseph - Original Message - From: Igor Gurevich To: Pedro C. Marijuan ; fis Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2014 9:47 AM Subject: [Fis] Physical Informatics contains fundamental results which impossible to get only by physical methods Dear Pedro C. Marijuan, Dear colleagues, I send you The main results of Gurevich I.M. (Physical Informatics contains fundamental results which impossible to get only by physical methods) and Igor Gurevich: Main publications in English . With best wishes. Igor Gurevich ___
Re: [Fis] Physical Informatics… (J.Brenner)
Bob -- I think the viewpoint on information being expressed by Gerhard is that which sees information to be embodied in configuration/conformation. If a configured entity is in the world it necessarily will encounter other configurations/conformations which will result in an 'interpretation' by both parties. STAN On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 2:53 PM, Bob Logan lo...@physics.utoronto.ca wrote: Dear all - my take on this post is that the question of whether physical processes are information is like the question: Is there a sound if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to listen? This is like the Zen koan: what is the sound of one hand clapping If no one is in the forest are the trees information? Well for sure they are trees but as to whether or not they are information that is strictly dependent on the point of view of the respondent. For me they are just trees and here is why I think so. For me information is about a process. The noun information relates to the verb inform. If no one is being informed there is no information. In the same way that if no one or thing is there being loved (verb) their is no love (noun). If no one is engaged in the activity of loving (a verb) there is no love (a noun). If there is no one being informed (a verb) then there is no information (a noun). Now one can talk about an object or a phenomenon having the possibility of informing someone which to my mind is potential information which is what I would call the physical processes that take place in our universe. A book written in Urdu is potential information because an Urdu reader can be informed by it. For me as a non-Urdu speaker there is very little information other than someone went to the trouble of writing out a text with Urdu letters and hence there is probably information there for an Urdu speaker reasoning why would any one make the effort to create such an object unless that person wanted to inform Urdu speakers. Just as one person's food is another person's poison so it is that one person's information is just for another persons merely a physical phenomenon such as processes in nature, ink on paper, sounds or EM signals. Shannon developed a theory of signals in which some of those signals have the ability to inform some recipients. I hope this collection of words has informed you other than giving you the knowledge of my view as to what constitutes information. Thanks to Joseph, Pedro, and Igor for the opportunity to reflect on the nature of information. If you enjoyed my post and would like to learn more about my views on information please send me an email off line and I will send you an email version of my book *What is Information? Propagating Organization in the Biosphere, the Symbolosphere, the Technosphere and the Econosphere * for free. And now you know what an infomercial is. This was an infomercial because of my offer to share my book with you erudite scholars of FIS whose posts I always enjoy. With kind regards - Bob __ Robert K. Logan Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications On 2014-10-20, at 1:57 PM, PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN FERNANDEZ wrote: - Original Message - *From:* Joseph Brenner joe.bren...@bluewin.ch *To:* Igor Gurevich iggurev...@gmail.com ; Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es ; fis fis@listas.unizar.es *Sent:* Monday, October 20, 2014 8:40 AM *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Physical Informatics contains fundamental results which impossible to get only by physical methods Dear Igor, Dear Gerhard and Colleagues, In Igor's summary of his recent work, I read the following absoutely critical statement: It is shown that the expansion of the Universe is the source of information formation, wherein a variety of physical processes in an expanding Universe provide information formation. I take this as meaning that the expansion of the Universe as such does not produce information. Gerhard's formulation is slightly different (my paraphrase): The first assymetry in energy distribution, following the singularity, is the source of information formation. My question is, therefore, how best to combine these insights. For example, we may say that the variety of physical processes are all the consequence of, and subsequently reflect, a first assymetry. It is also interesting to note that the approaches of both Igor and Gerhard imply the emergence of information through the interactional impact (informational interactions) of fundamental forces on particles, extended by Gerhard to somewhat higher levels of organization (life) than Igor. I look forward to further discussion of these fundamental issues. Sincerely, Joseph - Original Message - *From:* Igor Gurevich iggurev...@gmail.com *To:* Pedro C. Marijuan
Re: [Fis] Physical Informatics (J.Brenner)
Dear Bob, What you are saying is the obverse of the third law of thermodynamics. The third law says that entropy (viz., disorder) can only be measured with respect to some reference condition. Since information is the complement of entropy in Bayesian informatics, then the obverse becomes, Information can only be measured with respect to some reference state. (It may be the same one used for pin down entropy.) Changing the reference state changes the values for both information and entropy. I tried elaborating those relationships in my FIS paper http://people.biology.ufl.edu/ulan/pubs/FISPAP.pdf. The best, Bob U. Dear all - my take on this post is that the question of whether physical processes are information is like the question: Is there a sound if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to listen? This is like the Zen koan: what is the sound of one hand clapping If no one is in the forest are the trees information? Well for sure they are trees but as to whether or not they are information that is strictly dependent on the point of view of the respondent. For me they are just trees and here is why I think so. For me information is about a process. The noun information relates to the verb inform. If no one is being informed there is no information. In the same way that if no one or thing is there being loved (verb) their is no love (noun). If no one is engaged in the activity of loving (a verb) there is no love (a noun). If there is no one being informed (a verb) then there is no information (a noun). Now one can talk about an object or a phenomenon having the possibility of informing someone which to my mind is potential information which is what I would call the physical processes that take place in our universe. A book written in Urdu is potential information because an Urdu reader can be informed by it. For me as a non-Urdu speaker there is very little information other than someone went to the trouble of writing out a text with Urdu letters and hence there is probably information there for an Urdu speaker reasoning why would any one make the effort to create such an object unless that person wanted to inform Urdu speakers. Just as one person's food is another person's poison so it is that one person's information is just for another persons merely a physical phenomenon such as processes in nature, ink on paper, sounds or EM signals. Shannon developed a theory of signals in which some of those signals have the ability to inform some recipients. I hope this collection of words has informed you other than giving you the knowledge of my view as to what constitutes information. Thanks to Joseph, Pedro, and Igor for the opportunity to reflect on the nature of information. If you enjoyed my post and would like to learn more about my views on information please send me an email off line and I will send you an email version of my book What is Information? Propagating Organization in the Biosphere, the Symbolosphere, the Technosphere and the Econosphere for free. And now you know what an infomercial is. This was an infomercial because of my offer to share my book with you erudite scholars of FIS whose posts I always enjoy. With kind regards - Bob __ Robert K. Logan Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications On 2014-10-20, at 1:57 PM, PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN FERNANDEZ wrote: - Original Message - From: Joseph Brenner To: Igor Gurevich ; Pedro C. Marijuan ; fis Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 8:40 AM Subject: Re: [Fis] Physical Informatics contains fundamental results which impossible to get only by physical methods Dear Igor, Dear Gerhard and Colleagues, In Igor's summary of his recent work, I read the following absoutely critical statement: It is shown that the expansion of the Universe is the source of information formation, wherein a variety of physical processes in an expanding Universe provide information formation. I take this as meaning that the expansion of the Universe as such does not produce information. Gerhard's formulation is slightly different (my paraphrase): The first assymetry in energy distribution, following the singularity, is the source of information formation. My question is, therefore, how best to combine these insights. For example, we may say that the variety of physical processes are all the consequence of, and subsequently reflect, a first assymetry. It is also interesting to note that the approaches of both Igor and Gerhard imply the emergence of information through the interactional impact (informational interactions) of fundamental forces on particles, extended by Gerhard to somewhat higher levels of organization (life) than Igor. I look forward to further discussion of these fundamental
Re: [Fis] Physical Informatics… (J.Brenner)
Dear Bob, This is not wasted time or space. At their beginning, there was something moving, call it ‘It’, that led to trees and us. Today, there is something in us, call it ‘It’, that leads to love. This It became and now becomes us. Am I to blame that I to try to understand It, from the beginning, as information? Please do send me an E-mail copy of the latest version of your book. The one I have is dated December 9, 2011. Best, Joseph - Original Message - From: Bob Logan To: PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN FERNANDEZ ; fis ; Joseph Brenner Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 8:53 PM Subject: Re: [Fis] Physical Informatics… (J.Brenner) Dear all - my take on this post is that the question of whether physical processes are information is like the question: Is there a sound if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to listen? This is like the Zen koan: what is the sound of one hand clapping If no one is in the forest are the trees information? Well for sure they are trees but as to whether or not they are information that is strictly dependent on the point of view of the respondent. For me they are just trees and here is why I think so. For me information is about a process. The noun information relates to the verb inform. If no one is being informed there is no information. In the same way that if no one or thing is there being loved (verb) their is no love (noun). If no one is engaged in the activity of loving (a verb) there is no love (a noun). If there is no one being informed (a verb) then there is no information (a noun). Now one can talk about an object or a phenomenon having the possibility of informing someone which to my mind is potential information which is what I would call the physical processes that take place in our universe. A book written in Urdu is potential information because an Urdu reader can be informed by it. For me as a non-Urdu speaker there is very little information other than someone went to the trouble of writing out a text with Urdu letters and hence there is probably information there for an Urdu speaker reasoning why would any one make the effort to create such an object unless that person wanted to inform Urdu speakers. Just as one person's food is another person's poison so it is that one person's information is just for another persons merely a physical phenomenon such as processes in nature, ink on paper, sounds or EM signals. Shannon developed a theory of signals in which some of those signals have the ability to inform some recipients. I hope this collection of words has informed you other than giving you the knowledge of my view as to what constitutes information. Thanks to Joseph, Pedro, and Igor for the opportunity to reflect on the nature of information. If you enjoyed my post and would like to learn more about my views on information please send me an email off line and I will send you an email version of my book What is Information? Propagating Organization in the Biosphere, the Symbolosphere, the Technosphere and the Econosphere for free. And now you know what an infomercial is. This was an infomercial because of my offer to share my book with you erudite scholars of FIS whose posts I always enjoy. With kind regards - Bob __ Robert K. Logan Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications On 2014-10-20, at 1:57 PM, PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN FERNANDEZ wrote: - Original Message - From: Joseph Brenner To: Igor Gurevich ; Pedro C. Marijuan ; fis Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 8:40 AM Subject: Re: [Fis] Physical Informatics contains fundamental results which impossible to get only by physical methods Dear Igor, Dear Gerhard and Colleagues, In Igor's summary of his recent work, I read the following absoutely critical statement: It is shown that the expansion of the Universe is the source of information formation, wherein a variety of physical processes in an expanding Universe provide information formation. I take this as meaning that the expansion of the Universe as such does not produce information. Gerhard's formulation is slightly different (my paraphrase): The first assymetry in energy distribution, following the singularity, is the source of information formation. My question is, therefore, how best to combine these insights. For example, we may say that the variety of physical processes are all the consequence of, and subsequently reflect, a first assymetry. It is also interesting to note that the approaches of both Igor and Gerhard imply the emergence of information through the interactional impact (informational interactions) of fundamental forces on particles, extended by Gerhard to somewhat
