Re: [Fis] Closing Comments? From Qiao T.Q.

2010-12-21 Thread karl javorszky 
On Information

Please allow me to respectfully disagree with many of you. The term
'information' can well be defined by stringent logical-mathematical methods.
It will, however, need agreement on the calssification of the kinds of
information.

In preparation to an answer to the questions formulated by Pedro I prepared
a short summary. As this deals with the same concept, I'd like to include it
here.

On recognising the properties of matter and of the intellect itself.



This subject has been worked through by Thomas Aquinas in the Summa
Theologiae.

In today’s terminology, one may restate the following:

We recognize the patterns of our perceptions. These show that different
kinds of matter exist. The inner differences that we make among our
impressions depend on one hand on the properties of the matter “outside”, on
the other hand on the fineness of differentiation of one’s own intellect
“inside”. We deduct the outside world by means of our insight into the
patterns of our impressions.


Since Thomas the following has been added:

We have an instinctive and an intellectual set of rules of the brain. These
are interdependent. The intellectual set of rules can be codified and
results in formal logical sentences in formal logical languages. In this,
made-up, idealized world, every sentence is related to every other sentence
by means of made-up rules. A coherent system of thoughts is in itself
conclusive and well-explained, and may of course be near to, or far from
Reality, if Reality means that from what the system of idealized sentences
has been idealized away. The set of rules may in itself be beautiful and
elaborate, and this is completely disconnected to the question, whether
anyone obeys them. Within the set of rules, it can not be decided, whether
they have any outside consequences, therefore this question cannot be
discussed and one should keep his silence about it.


Recently, some have addressed the problem of inner contradictions within a
well-constructed closed logical system and have come up with the following:

The rules have been derived by observing something that happens regularly.
Therefore, there is something what is continuously irregular. Relative to
that background of perception we rejoice in recognizing that what is
invariably somehow, and are proud of predicting its next occurrence. The
next occurrence we distinguish re the place and the properties. We try to
understand the interplay between the place and the properties of the next
occurrence, because that is already a task exciting our intellectum, in the
sense of perceptive organs. The thing catches our attention by its
predictability. Therefore, there exists a background, less predictable, less
ordered, which we use to recognize the foreground before it. Now within a
closed logical system – like the human intellect is one – there cannot be
unregulated processes which one uses dependably, and be it that one uses
them as backgrounds. So there is a minor and a maior degree of order and the
perception uses the maior degree of order to perceive before the background
of the minor degree of order.

This concept has been demonstrated on our traditional and other ways of
dealing with the most simple logical statement there is, namely a+b=c. We
have at all times a presently relevant order in existence and can relate to
previous and future states of the world, and this before a multitude of
aspects which are presently irrelevant. The irrelevant aspects provide a
multitude of different orders which are by magnitudes more pervasive than
the order, and can therefore well be used as background.


Restating Thomas: the intellect knows that it is well-ordered. It can
deduct, and recognize by its shortcomings, that a higher, better, (in his
terms: divine) order exists. By today’s methods it is possible to relate
that what is the case to that what is not the case. The order prevailing in
the background is not a disorder but an order based on aspects that are
irrelevant. There are always many more irrelevant aspects to a logical
statement than relevant ones, so there is always a background before which
we can recognize the relevance of some aspects.


Information now can be understood to relate to the alternatives within the
maior order, and again as relating to the properties of the maior order
within (connected to, contrasted to) the minor order. This method allows
very well exact and usable definitions of information.

So, the vote is not unanimous. There are solid, step-by-step deictic methods
of definition for the term 'information' using a+b=c.

Karl

2010/12/21 Pedro C. Marijuan 

>  An interesting message from Qiao Tian-qing
>
> Note: attachments are not much welcome by the host server of this list.
> --P.
>
>  Mensaje original   Asunto: I agree with you  Fecha: Sat,
> 18 Dec 2010 10:52:38 +0800  De: whhbs...@sina.com  Para:
> pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
>
> Dear Pedro
>
> You said:  ‘*Factually, information becomes undefinable

Re: [Fis] Closing Comments? From Qiao T.Q.

2010-12-21 Thread Pedro C. Marijuan 

An interesting message from Qiao Tian-qing

Note: attachments are not much welcome by the host server of this list. 
  --P.


 Mensaje original 
Asunto: I agree with you
Fecha:  Sat, 18 Dec 2010 10:52:38 +0800
De: whhbs...@sina.com
Para:   pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es



Dear Pedro

You said:  ‘*Factually, information becomes undefinable,’ *I agree with 
you.* *Claude E. Shannon also issued a statement:


“It is almost impossible to count on a sole concept about information 
being satisfactorily responsible for every possible application in 
general fields”. (Peter F. Drucker. Knowledge Work and Knowledge 
Society: The social Transformations of this Century. Quoted from [Gang, 
L. 2007])


 In this email’s attachment, a paper expresses my viewpoint. This paper 
puts forward a definition, and its mathematical expressions, of what is 
*customarily named information*, hoping it will be helpful to end the 
philosophical exploration for the concept of information.


best regards
---Qiao Tian-qing



QTQ

--



Definition to Pedro.doc
Description: MS-Word document
___
fis mailing list
fis@listas.unizar.es
https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

Re: [Fis] Closing Comments?

2010-12-20 Thread Loet Leydesdorff 
"Information is the difference that makes the difference" 

 

Dear colleagues, 

 

It seems important to me to distinguish between two concepts of information 
because if we use the same word for two concepts this can be a source of 
confusion. Perhaps, I can reproduce the two character set in Chinese which 
Prof. Wu Yishan was once so kind to write for me in Chinese and which express 
these two meanings. Let me give it a try:

 

Description: fig13_01

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The above one, ‘sjin sji’, corresponds to the mathe­matical definition of 
informa­tion as uncertainty.[1] The sec­ond, ‘tsjin bao,’ means infor­mation 
but also intelligence.[2] In other words, it means infor­mation which informs 
us, and which is thus considered meaningful.

 

In other words, “a difference which makes a difference” is “tsjin bao” whereas 
Shannon information (“sjin shi”) is only a series of differences or – in other 
words – the information contained in a probability distribution. A difference 
can make a difference for a system. The latter can be an observer or, for 
example, a discourse. Two types of meaning can thus be provided to the 
information: by an individual observer or by a social system. 

 

The meanings provided to the information are again complex: a difference makes 
a difference at specific moment of time. Additionally the “sjin sji” can be 
provided with meaning over time. The two types of meaning can be recombined by 
the system, from the perspective of hindsight. The latter perspective inverts 
the time axis and thus makes the theory and computation of anticipatory systems 
relevant.

 

The quality of the latter reflection can perhaps at the level of the individual 
be considered as a measure of individual intelligence. At the level of a social 
system, the knowledge base of the system (e.g., an economy) can be measured as 
synergy or redundancy generated within the system using the mutual information 
in three dimensions. This is issue is complex in itself (Krippendorff, 2009; 
Leydesdorff, 2010).

 

With kind regards, 

Loet

 

References:

Krippendorff, K. (2009). Information of Interactions in Complex Systems. 
International Journal of General Systems, 38(6), 669-680.

Leydesdorff, L. (2010). Redundancy in Systems which Entertain a Model of 
Themselves: Interaction Information and the Self-organization of Anticipation 
Entropy, 12(1), 63-79; doi:10.3390/e12010063.

 

  _  

Loet Leydesdorff 

Professor, University of Amsterdam
Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR)
Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam.
Tel. +31-20-525 6598; fax: +31-842239111

  l...@leydesdorff.net ;  
 http://www.leydesdorff.net/ 
Visiting Professor 2007-2010,   
ISTIC, Beijing; Honorary Fellow 2007-2010,   
SPRU, University of Sussex 



 

 


  _  

 [1] ‘sjin’ means letter of reliability, and ‘sji’ means message.

 [2] ‘tsjin’ means situation or status, and ‘bao’ means report.



image001.png
Description: Binary data


image003.png
Description: Binary data
___
fis mailing list
fis@listas.unizar.es
https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

Re: [Fis] Closing Comments?

2010-12-20 Thread Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic 
Hello FIS colleagues,

I like Igor's suggestion:

“Information is heterogeneity, stable for some definite time”.

A simpler general version is Bateson's:

"Information is the difference that makes the difference" 

Best wishes,
Gordana



Gordana Dodig Crnkovic, 
Associate Professor 
http://www.mrtc.mdh.se/~gdc/
Mälardalen University
School of Innovation, Design and Engineering
Box 883, SE-721 23 Västerås, Sweden




-Original Message-
From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On 
Behalf Of Igor Gurevich
Sent: den 20 december 2010 12:28
To: Pedro C. Marijuan
Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] Closing Comments?

Dear Pedro C. Marijuan!
Dear Dear Colleagues!

DEFINITION OF CONCEPT “INFORMATION”

1) D. Doucette in work “Challenges for Those Constructing a Science of
Information as an Evolving Unique Discipline” presented at Fourth
International Conference on the Foundations of Information Science:
Towards a new science of information (FIS 2010), Beijing, China, 21-24
August 2010 (2010) has defined “Science of Information”: “In
establishing the new evolved information discipline, there should be
some initial awareness that information is a part of all elements,
systems, conditions and is therefore also an integral part of the
other individual disciplines and sciences. In studying information
phenomena, it is essential to look beyond the limitations of how human
use and perceive information, or even how living organisms' uses
information. It is proposed that information is a continuous evolving
process that exists in some simple to complex form in every stage of
development across all science and academia domains as well as being a
significant part of everything that exists. Information is a trigger
mechanism, emphasis and nutrient for not only information activities
but also all physical biological elements, systems and activities”.
2) If we want to create “Science of Information” we must use single,
unified, unique definition of the “information” concept. I suggested
it [Gurevich I.M. Law of informatics - a basis of researches and
designing of complex communication and management systems. (In
Russian). «Ecos». Moscow. 1989. 60 p.].
«Information is heterogeneity, stable for some definite time of the
arbitrary physical nature. Thereby, a letter in a book, an atom, a
molecule, an elementary particle, a star, a drawing, a pattern, a
ploughed field, a wood and other heterogeneities contain and carry the
information».
 “Information is heterogeneity, stable for some definite time”.
Regardless of the nature of heterogeneity, would be it letters, words,
phrases or - elementary particles, atoms, molecules, or - people,
groups, societies, etc.
The measure of the degree of heterogeneity or information is Shannon's
information entropy and other information characteristics (information
divergence, joint entropy, communication information).
The proposed definition and the Shannon information entropy and other
information characteristics can describe information (heterogeneity)
of any nature.
3) The definitions of homogeneity and heterogeneity.
Consider a set M of elements m. If the elements m are the same,
identical (not different from each other), then the set M is
homogeneous. If the elements m are not the same, no identical
(differing one from other), then the set M is no homogeneous.
4) Types of information.
4.1. Classical information. Time of existence of the heterogeneity is
infinite. This is absolutely stable heterogeneity.
4.2. Macroinformation (by Chernavsky). Time of existence of the
heterogeneity is not less than the time of existence of the system.
This is essentially stable heterogeneity.
I4.3. Information. Time of existence of the heterogeneity is less than
the time of existence of the system, but more then the time course of
processes in the system. This is stable for some definite time
heterogeneity.
4.4. Microinformation (by Chernavsky). Time of existence of the
heterogeneity is essentially less than the time of existence of the
system. This is unstable heterogeneity.
[Chernavsky D.S. Synergetics and Information (dynamic information
theory). Issue 2-e Corr. and add. Moscow. URSS. (In Russian). 2004.
288 p.].
5) The information (heterogeneity) is an objective reality. Its
existence does not depend on availability of Observer. For example:
heterogeneity (elementary particles, atoms, molecules) possess certain
information (and physical) characteristics, properties (properties of
the first order), in particular they contains certain volume of the
information.
6) Availability of Observer can give for the information
(heterogeneity) new properties (property of the second order) –
perception, content, sense, value, …
Note. Information properties of heterogeneity (properties of the first
order) determine the fundamental limitations on property of the second
order.
7) Observer per

Re: [Fis] Closing Comments?

2010-12-20 Thread Pedro C. Marijuan 
Dear FIS colleagues,

Well, I am making a try on those tough questions...

Q1. What is the correct concept of intelligence?
It should refer to entities with capability to adjust (adapt) their 
inner processes and configurations to their environment, either 
following an autopoietic life cycle or in the pursuit of some 
allopoietic goal (for artificial systems).

Q2. What is the correct concept of information?
Information is undefinable. It antedates any other distinctional 
capability by the agent, even time and space themselves (in the human 
agency case) are forms of information. Once established the agent and 
the disciplinary "narrative", axiomatic approaches to information are 
feasible. In theoretical science, information should be complemented by 
symmetry: they mutually uphold, respectively implying change and 
distinction versus permanence and conservation.

Q3. What is the precise relation between intelligence and information?
Those autopoietic entities known as "complex adaptive systems", 
"information gatherers and users", should be labeled as just 
"informational" (entities, or systems). When their adaptability is 
highly developed for a number of circumstances and happenstances, 
"intelligence" should enter, particularly when one entity is efficiently 
handling the life cycle of another.
 
Q4. How do you evaluate the current state of the art in the study of 
intelligence science?
Too much dominated by the conventional artificial intelligence 
approaches--but there is a lot of promise in the new field of "advanced 
artificial intelligence"

Q5. How do you evaluate the current state of the art in the study of 
information science?
Too heterogeneous and too many approaches... however, once a few crucial 
aspects become properly aligned, the field may progress at an 
astonishing pace.

Q6. Do you agree with the statement that intelligence comes from 
knowledge and the latter from information?
It looks true, at least for informational paradigmatic entities 
---cells, nervous systems, societies. DNA is the crystallization of 
evolutionary knowledge, as well as our personal memories (even more once 
embedded in scientific constructs), and also for the different modes of 
social knowing (as we were discussing recent days!)

Q7. What, do you think, is the feasible mechanism of intelligence growth?
Recombination of knowledge appears as the common mechanism (the only 
way?) for the growth of complexity and intelligence. At least it happens 
in that way in the three natural information realms: DNA module 
recombination, brain's default mode or "dark energy" (a recent concept 
introduced in the neurociences), interdisciplinary recombination of 
knowledge in the sciences...

Q8. Do you think it possible to have information being conversed to 
knowledge and even to intelligence?
In the above natural cases, rather simple intelligences at the cellular, 
neuronal, social levels have grown to remarkable complexity by repeated 
exposure to information rich instances; but at the same time very simple 
organizations have been maintained, eg, most of prokaryotes, plants and 
invertebrates, tribal societies...

that was all!

---Pedro

-- 
-
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Avda. Gómez Laguna, 25, Pl. 11ª
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Telf: 34 976 71 3526 (& 6818) Fax: 34 976 71 5554
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
-

___
fis mailing list
fis@listas.unizar.es
https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

Re: [Fis] Closing Comments?

2010-12-20 Thread Igor Gurevich 
Dear Pedro C. Marijuan!
Dear Dear Colleagues!

DEFINITION OF CONCEPT “INFORMATION”

1) D. Doucette in work “Challenges for Those Constructing a Science of
Information as an Evolving Unique Discipline” presented at Fourth
International Conference on the Foundations of Information Science:
Towards a new science of information (FIS 2010), Beijing, China, 21-24
August 2010 (2010) has defined “Science of Information”: “In
establishing the new evolved information discipline, there should be
some initial awareness that information is a part of all elements,
systems, conditions and is therefore also an integral part of the
other individual disciplines and sciences. In studying information
phenomena, it is essential to look beyond the limitations of how human
use and perceive information, or even how living organisms' uses
information. It is proposed that information is a continuous evolving
process that exists in some simple to complex form in every stage of
development across all science and academia domains as well as being a
significant part of everything that exists. Information is a trigger
mechanism, emphasis and nutrient for not only information activities
but also all physical biological elements, systems and activities”.
2) If we want to create “Science of Information” we must use single,
unified, unique definition of the “information” concept. I suggested
it [Gurevich I.M. Law of informatics - a basis of researches and
designing of complex communication and management systems. (In
Russian). «Ecos». Moscow. 1989. 60 p.].
«Information is heterogeneity, stable for some definite time of the
arbitrary physical nature. Thereby, a letter in a book, an atom, a
molecule, an elementary particle, a star, a drawing, a pattern, a
ploughed field, a wood and other heterogeneities contain and carry the
information».
 “Information is heterogeneity, stable for some definite time”.
Regardless of the nature of heterogeneity, would be it letters, words,
phrases or - elementary particles, atoms, molecules, or - people,
groups, societies, etc.
The measure of the degree of heterogeneity or information is Shannon's
information entropy and other information characteristics (information
divergence, joint entropy, communication information).
The proposed definition and the Shannon information entropy and other
information characteristics can describe information (heterogeneity)
of any nature.
3) The definitions of homogeneity and heterogeneity.
Consider a set M of elements m. If the elements m are the same,
identical (not different from each other), then the set M is
homogeneous. If the elements m are not the same, no identical
(differing one from other), then the set M is no homogeneous.
4) Types of information.
4.1. Classical information. Time of existence of the heterogeneity is
infinite. This is absolutely stable heterogeneity.
4.2. Macroinformation (by Chernavsky). Time of existence of the
heterogeneity is not less than the time of existence of the system.
This is essentially stable heterogeneity.
I4.3. Information. Time of existence of the heterogeneity is less than
the time of existence of the system, but more then the time course of
processes in the system. This is stable for some definite time
heterogeneity.
4.4. Microinformation (by Chernavsky). Time of existence of the
heterogeneity is essentially less than the time of existence of the
system. This is unstable heterogeneity.
[Chernavsky D.S. Synergetics and Information (dynamic information
theory). Issue 2-e Corr. and add. Moscow. URSS. (In Russian). 2004.
288 p.].
5) The information (heterogeneity) is an objective reality. Its
existence does not depend on availability of Observer. For example:
heterogeneity (elementary particles, atoms, molecules) possess certain
information (and physical) characteristics, properties (properties of
the first order), in particular they contains certain volume of the
information.
6) Availability of Observer can give for the information
(heterogeneity) new properties (property of the second order) –
perception, content, sense, value, …
Note. Information properties of heterogeneity (properties of the first
order) determine the fundamental limitations on property of the second
order.
7) Observer perceives, locates, remembers the information
(heterogeneity). The Observer shapes system of the standards
(concepts) describing the information (heterogeneity), perceives the
information (heterogeneity) within the limits of the generated system
of standards (concepts), shapes language of the description of the
information (heterogeneities), describes the information
(heterogeneity), classifies the information (heterogeneity), shapes
knowledge base, shapes the new information (heterogeneity), makes he
information actual (within the limits of the possibilities).
Observer is forming mind, intelligence  at work on the information.
The level of mind, intellect of Observer is defined by volume
processed (stored) information and productivity (speed) of wor