Re: [Fis] INFORMATION IS PROCESSING. Information as process

2018-05-11 Thread Søren Brier 
Joseph

I did not get the file.

 Søren

From: Fis  On Behalf Of Joseph Brenner
Sent: 11. maj 2018 19:08
To: 'Krassimir Markov' ; [email protected]; 'Arturo 
Tozzi' 
Cc: 'fis' 
Subject: Re: [Fis] INFORMATION IS PROCESSING. Information as process

Perhaps you will also be interested in my brief comments on 
information-as-process in my 2011 paper in Information 2(3), 560-578. It seems 
a bit too simple to say that a computer, machine, whatever can process all 
reflections if these include high-level complex exchanges of energy in and 
between human brains Does not something get lost in that process?

Best,

Joseph



From: Fis [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Krassimir Markov
Sent: vendredi, 11 mai 2018 16:13
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>; Arturo Tozzi
Cc: fis
Subject: [Fis] INFORMATION IS PROCESSING the reflections


Dear Colleagues,

During activity of Infos' consciousness, reflections are combined and as a 
result the new ones may be created and stored in the Infos memory.
Processing of some reflections may cause some activity, too.

In other words, it doesn't matter what kind of Infos is active - the result is 
the same!

INFORMATION IS PROCESSING the reflections that has as final result an activity 
or new reflections.

Usually, the results of such processing are called "Information".

Of course, to be active means to be real (material, physical) and to have 
energy for processing.
To store reflections, material objects are needed, i.e. "carriers".

This is the main interconnection between mater, energy, and information.

No Information exist anywhere - only reflections - REAL, PHYSICAL REFLECTIONS!
Reflections in real, physical objects, including living creatures.
Including Brain!

Main difference between living and not living mater is possibility for 
processing of reflections.

Of course, many levels of such processing exist.
Maybe, the most complex is the social one.
Maybe, the simplest one is in the cells...

Could the Machine process reflections? Still no answer ...
But the Computer can!

"That's All Folks!"

Friendly greetings
Krassimir





From: Karl Javorszky<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 1:20 PM
To: Arturo Tozzi<mailto:[email protected]>
Cc: fis<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Fis] [FIS] Is information physical?

Dear Arturo,


There were some reports in clinical psychology, about 30 years ago, that relate 
to the question whether a machine can pretend to be a therapist. That was the 
time as computers could newly be used in an interactive fashion, and the Rogers 
techniques were a current discovery.
(Rogers developed a dialogue method where one does not address the contents of 
what the patient says, but rather the emotional aspects of the message, assumed 
to be at work in the patient.)

They then said, that in some cases it was indistinguishable, whether a human or 
a machine provides the answer to a patient's elucidations.

Progress since then has surely made possible to create machines that are 
indistinguishable in interaction to humans. Indeed, what is called "expert 
systems ", are widely used in many fields. If the interaction is rational,  
that is: formally equivalent to a logical discussion modi Wittgenstein, the 
difference in: "who arrived at this answer, machinery or a human", becomes 
irrelevant.

Artistry, intuition, creativity are presently seen as not possible to translate 
into Wittgenstein sentences. Maybe the inner instincts are not yet well 
understood. But!: there are some who are busily undermining the current 
fundamentals of rational thinking. So there is hope that we shall live to 
experience the ultimate disillusionment,  namely that humans are a 
combinatorial tautology.

Accordingly, may I respectfully express opposing views to what you state: that 
machines and humans are of incompatible builds. There are hints that as far as 
rational capabilities go, the same principles apply. There is a rest, you say, 
which is not of this kind. The counter argument says that irrational processes 
do not take place in organisms, therefore what you refer to belongs to the main 
process, maybe like waste belongs to the organism's principle. This view draws 
a picture of a functional biotope, in which the waste of one kind of organism 
is raw material for a different kind.

Karl

mailto:[email protected]>> schrieb am Do., 10. Mai 
2018 15:24:

Dear Bruno,
You state:
"IF indexical digital mechanism is correct in the cognitive science,
THEN "physical" has to be defined entirely in arithmetical term, i.e. 
"physical" becomes a mathematical notion.
...Indexical digital mechanism is the hypothesis that there is a level of 
description of the brain/body such that I wou

Re: [Fis] INFORMATION IS PROCESSING. Information as process

2018-05-11 Thread Joseph Brenner 
Perhaps you will also be interested in my brief comments on
information-as-process in my 2011 paper in Information 2(3), 560-578. It
seems a bit too simple to say that a computer, machine, whatever can process
all reflections if these include high-level complex exchanges of energy in
and between human brains Does not something get lost in that process?



Best,



Joseph





  _

From: Fis [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Krassimir
Markov
Sent: vendredi, 11 mai 2018 16:13
To: [email protected]; Arturo Tozzi
Cc: fis
Subject: [Fis] INFORMATION IS PROCESSING the reflections





Dear Colleagues,



During activity of Infos’ consciousness, reflections are combined and as a
result the new ones may be created and stored in the Infos memory.

Processing of some reflections may cause some activity, too.



In other words, it doesn't matter what kind of Infos is active – the result
is the same!



INFORMATION IS PROCESSING the reflections that has as final result an
activity or new reflections.



Usually, the results of such processing are called “Information”.



Of course, to be active means to be real (material, physical) and to have
energy for processing.

To store reflections, material objects are needed, i.e. “carriers”.



This is the main interconnection between mater, energy, and information.



No Information exist anywhere – only reflections – REAL, PHYSICAL
REFLECTIONS!

Reflections in real, physical objects, including living creatures.

Including Brain!



Main difference between living and not living mater is possibility for
processing of reflections.



Of course, many levels of such processing exist.

Maybe, the most complex is the social one.

Maybe, the simplest one is in the cells...



Could the Machine process reflections? Still no answer ...

But the Computer can!



"That's All Folks!"



Friendly greetings

Krassimir











From: Karl   Javorszky

Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 1:20 PM

To: Arturo Tozzi 

Cc: fis 

Subject: Re: [Fis] [FIS] Is information physical?



Dear Arturo,





There were some reports in clinical psychology, about 30 years ago, that
relate to the question whether a machine can pretend to be a therapist. That
was the time as computers could newly be used in an interactive fashion, and
the Rogers techniques were a current discovery.

(Rogers developed a dialogue method where one does not address the contents
of what the patient says, but rather the emotional aspects of the message,
assumed to be at work in the patient.)



They then said, that in some cases it was indistinguishable, whether a human
or a machine provides the answer to a patient's elucidations.



Progress since then has surely made possible to create machines that are
indistinguishable in interaction to humans. Indeed, what is called "expert
systems ", are widely used in many fields. If the interaction is rational,
that is: formally equivalent to a logical discussion modi Wittgenstein, the
difference in: "who arrived at this answer, machinery or a human", becomes
irrelevant.



Artistry, intuition, creativity are presently seen as not possible to
translate into Wittgenstein sentences. Maybe the inner instincts are not yet
well understood. But!: there are some who are busily undermining the current
fundamentals of rational thinking. So there is hope that we shall live to
experience the ultimate disillusionment,  namely that humans are a
combinatorial tautology.



Accordingly, may I respectfully express opposing views to what you state:
that machines and humans are of incompatible builds. There are hints that as
far as rational capabilities go, the same principles apply. There is a rest,
you say, which is not of this kind. The counter argument says that
irrational processes do not take place in organisms, therefore what you
refer to belongs to the main process, maybe like waste belongs to the
organism's principle. This view draws a picture of a functional biotope, in
which the waste of one kind of organism is raw material for a different
kind.



Karl



 schrieb am Do., 10. Mai 2018 15:24:

Dear Bruno,
You state:
"IF indexical digital mechanism is correct in the cognitive science,
THEN “physical” has to be defined entirely in arithmetical term, i.e.
“physical” becomes a mathematical notion.
...Indexical digital mechanism is the hypothesis that there is a level of
description of the brain/body such that I would survive, or “not feel any
change” if my brain/body is replaced by a digital machine emulating the
brain/body at that level of description".

The problem of your account is the following:
You say "IF" and "indexical digital mechanism is the HYPOTHESIS".
Therefore, you are talking of an HYPOTHESIS: it is not empirically tested
and it is not empirically testable.  You are starting with a sort of
postulate: I, and other people, do not agree with it.  The current
neuroscience does