Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

2014-12-07 Thread Francesco Rizzo
Caro Pedro e cari Tutti,
anche e soprattutto il Natale, è una lieta novella, un'INFORMAZIONE bella e
buona. Difatti Gesù Cristo ha preso la forma di carne dell'uomo, senza
perdere quella divina. Per tutti, credenti e non credenti o ritenuti tali.
D'altra parte, se Dio esiste, come esiste,  esiste per tutti, che noi lo
vogliamo o meno. Quindi colgo l'occasione per rivolgerVi un AUGURIO di
A.more, U.ni-versale, G.rande, U.nico,
R.adioso,I.nter-nazionale,O.nto-logico.
Un abbraccio da estendere alle Vostre famiglie.
Francesco Rizzo.

2014-12-05 19:53 GMT+01:00 Guy A Hoelzer hoel...@unr.edu:

  Hi All,

  Like many here, I am very interested in the notion of neuroinformation
 and the contrast between information as static pattern or temporal
 process.  I want to suggest a way to think of the static and process views
 of information as identical concepts.  I take the static view to be
 something like the existence of a physical gradient or contrast in state
 between proximate spaces.  The 2nd law of thermodynamics tells us that all
 such gradients will tend to bread down (disorganize) over time.  Therefore,
 maintenance of static information requires a process.  This idea could
 apply nicely to neuroinformation.  For example, memories can fade if they
 are not accessed occasionally.  From this point of view, static contrasts
 and the processes that maintain them cannot be separated, much like pattern
 and process cannot be separated in the dissipative systems of Prigogine.

  Regards,

  Guy

 Guy Hoelzer, Associate Professor
 Department of Biology
 University of Nevada Reno

 Phone:  775-784-4860
 Fax:  775-784-1302
 hoel...@unr.edu

  On Dec 4, 2014, at 6:57 AM, Krassimir Markov mar...@foibg.com wrote:

   Dear Bob,
 I think, there is no conflict between two points of view – information may
 be a process and it may be a static depending of what kind of reflection it
 is.
 For instance, we reflect the world around:
 - as static - by photos, art images, sculptures, etc.;
 - as dynamic - by movies, theater plays, ballet, etc.;
 - and, at the end, by both types – by static text which creates dynamical
 imaginations in our consciousness.
 Friendly regards
 Krassimir

 PS: This is my second post for this week. So, I say: Goodbye to the next
 one!



  *From:* Bob Logan lo...@physics.utoronto.ca
 *Sent:* Thursday, December 04, 2014 3:54 PM
 *To:* Joseph Brenner joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
 *Cc:* fis@listas.unizar.es
 *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

  Dear all - I support Joseph's remarks and would suggest that information
 in general is a process that unfortunately is formulated as a noun.
 Inspired by Bucky Fuller's I think I am a verb I suggest that Information
 is a verb It is a verb because it describes a process. Although that
 solves one problem we need to be able to describe a set of signs that have
 the potential to initiate the process of informing through interpretation.
 I would not suggest we create another word but recognize that the word
 information has many meanings and that when it is describing a process it
 has a verb-like quality to it and when it describes a set of sign that have
 the potential to be interpreted and hence become information it is acting
 as a noun. I would also suggest that a simple definition of the term
 information is not possible because its meaning is so context dependent.
 This is true of all words but even more so for information. For those that
 agree with my sentiments the above is information and for those that do not
 it is nonsense. My best wishes to both groups,  Bob Logan
  __

   Robert K. Logan
 Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto
 Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD
  http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan
 www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan
 www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications








  On 2014-12-04, at 6:40 AM, Joseph Brenner wrote:

  Dear Dr. Isiegas,

 I will add my support to the extended concept of information that inheres
 in the work of Robert Ulanowicz and John Collier. I would just add that I
 like to call it information-as-process, to call attention to its
 'structure' being dynamic, with individual neurones involved in a cyclic
 (better spiral or sinusoidal) movement between states of activation and
 inhibition. I have ascribed an extension of logic to this form of
 alternating actual and potential states in complex processes at all levels
 of reality.

 Best wishes,

 Joseph B.

 - Original Message - From: Robert E. Ulanowicz u...@umces.edu
 To: Carolina Isiegas cisie...@gmail.com
 Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
 Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 6:30 PM
 Subject: Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?


 Dear Dr. Isiegas:

 I envision neuroinformation as the mutual information of the neuronal
 network where synaptic connections are weighted by the frequencies of
 discharge between all pairs of neurons. This is directly analogous to a
 network of trophic exchanges among an ecosystem

Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

2014-12-07 Thread Francesco Rizzo
P.s.: Scusate, bisogna togliere la virgola (,) dopo la parola Natale.
Francesco.

2014-12-08 7:36 GMT+01:00 Francesco Rizzo 13francesco.ri...@gmail.com:

 Caro Pedro e cari Tutti,
 anche e soprattutto il Natale, è una lieta novella, un'INFORMAZIONE bella
 e buona. Difatti Gesù Cristo ha preso la forma di carne dell'uomo, senza
 perdere quella divina. Per tutti, credenti e non credenti o ritenuti tali.
 D'altra parte, se Dio esiste, come esiste,  esiste per tutti, che noi lo
 vogliamo o meno. Quindi colgo l'occasione per rivolgerVi un AUGURIO di
 A.more, U.ni-versale, G.rande, U.nico,
 R.adioso,I.nter-nazionale,O.nto-logico.
 Un abbraccio da estendere alle Vostre famiglie.
 Francesco Rizzo.

 2014-12-05 19:53 GMT+01:00 Guy A Hoelzer hoel...@unr.edu:

  Hi All,

  Like many here, I am very interested in the notion of neuroinformation
 and the contrast between information as static pattern or temporal
 process.  I want to suggest a way to think of the static and process views
 of information as identical concepts.  I take the static view to be
 something like the existence of a physical gradient or contrast in state
 between proximate spaces.  The 2nd law of thermodynamics tells us that all
 such gradients will tend to bread down (disorganize) over time.  Therefore,
 maintenance of static information requires a process.  This idea could
 apply nicely to neuroinformation.  For example, memories can fade if they
 are not accessed occasionally.  From this point of view, static contrasts
 and the processes that maintain them cannot be separated, much like pattern
 and process cannot be separated in the dissipative systems of Prigogine.

  Regards,

  Guy

 Guy Hoelzer, Associate Professor
 Department of Biology
 University of Nevada Reno

 Phone:  775-784-4860
 Fax:  775-784-1302
 hoel...@unr.edu

  On Dec 4, 2014, at 6:57 AM, Krassimir Markov mar...@foibg.com wrote:

   Dear Bob,
 I think, there is no conflict between two points of view – information
 may be a process and it may be a static depending of what kind of
 reflection it is.
 For instance, we reflect the world around:
 - as static - by photos, art images, sculptures, etc.;
 - as dynamic - by movies, theater plays, ballet, etc.;
 - and, at the end, by both types – by static text which creates dynamical
 imaginations in our consciousness.
 Friendly regards
 Krassimir

 PS: This is my second post for this week. So, I say: Goodbye to the next
 one!



  *From:* Bob Logan lo...@physics.utoronto.ca
 *Sent:* Thursday, December 04, 2014 3:54 PM
 *To:* Joseph Brenner joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
 *Cc:* fis@listas.unizar.es
 *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

  Dear all - I support Joseph's remarks and would suggest that
 information in general is a process that unfortunately is formulated as a
 noun. Inspired by Bucky Fuller's I think I am a verb I suggest that
 Information is a verb It is a verb because it describes a process.
 Although that solves one problem we need to be able to describe a set of
 signs that have the potential to initiate the process of informing through
 interpretation. I would not suggest we create another word but recognize
 that the word information has many meanings and that when it is describing
 a process it has a verb-like quality to it and when it describes a set of
 sign that have the potential to be interpreted and hence become information
 it is acting as a noun. I would also suggest that a simple definition of
 the term information is not possible because its meaning is so context
 dependent. This is true of all words but even more so for information. For
 those that agree with my sentiments the above is information and for those
 that do not it is nonsense. My best wishes to both groups,  Bob Logan
  __

   Robert K. Logan
 Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto
 Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD
  http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan
 www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan
 www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications








  On 2014-12-04, at 6:40 AM, Joseph Brenner wrote:

  Dear Dr. Isiegas,

 I will add my support to the extended concept of information that inheres
 in the work of Robert Ulanowicz and John Collier. I would just add that I
 like to call it information-as-process, to call attention to its
 'structure' being dynamic, with individual neurones involved in a cyclic
 (better spiral or sinusoidal) movement between states of activation and
 inhibition. I have ascribed an extension of logic to this form of
 alternating actual and potential states in complex processes at all levels
 of reality.

 Best wishes,

 Joseph B.

 - Original Message - From: Robert E. Ulanowicz u...@umces.edu
 To: Carolina Isiegas cisie...@gmail.com
 Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
 Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 6:30 PM
 Subject: Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?


 Dear Dr. Isiegas:

 I envision neuroinformation as the mutual information of the neuronal
 network where synaptic connections

Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

2014-12-05 Thread Pedro C. Marijuan

Dear Carolina and FIS colleagues,

Many thanks for your questions. They have motivated quite interesting 
responses--I agree with the very cogent comments raised. Only a few 
further matters to consider about neuroinformation. First, TOPOLOGY. I 
think all the mappings, gradients, inversions,  deletions, 
amplifications, etc. that exist among the neural surfaces constitute an 
essential ingredient. Without it, the mass of neural networks would be 
unable to perform any sophisticate neurocomputation (it is topology 
rather than mere topography, as all the irregularities conform strategic 
relationships of vicinity). Second, MOLECULAR SPECIFICITY, that relates 
to the vast number of neurotransmitters, neuromodulators, hormones, 
neuropeptides etc. that guide the circulating electricity, organized in 
signaling pathways of amazing complexity (the postsynaptic sites are 
signaling theaters with more than a dozen pathways that also include 
local protein synthesis and degradation). All these molecular 
recognition events are decisive to orientate the electrical processing, 
and viceversa, electricity also guides the molecules... together they 
achieve information processing tied to the advancement and completion of 
a life cycle (this is crucial in my view). Third, OPTIMIZATION 
PRINCIPLE, combining minimization of neuronal free energy within a 
Bayesian scheme, one of the most advanced approaches is by Karl Friston 
(in a plethora of papers, he has an amazing productivity!). The book 
Integral Biomathematics (Simeonov, Smith, Ehresman eds., Springer 
2012) also contains very interesting discussions about the Bayesian 
Brain. And finally CONSCIOUSNESS... how fascinating is the 
organizational path from molecules to consciousness--but how much can we 
say bout that meaningfully? Neuroinformation, echoing previous comments, 
appears not as a concrete thing or item but as a gigantic network of 
processes, a very, very big and complex phenomenon...


By the way, Carolina, there is a very interesting implicit view of yours 
on the relationship between experimentalists and theoreticians---may I 
inquire about that? But sorry, you have received too many responses... 
take your time!


best ---Pedro

Carolina Isiegas wrote:

Dear list,

I have been reading during the last year all these interesting 
exchanges. Some of them terrific discussions! Given my scientific 
backgound (Molecular Neuroscience), I would like to hear your point of 
view on the topic of neuroinformation, how information exists within 
the Central Nervous Systems. My task was experimental; I was 
interested in investigating the molecular mechanisms underlying 
learning and memory, specifically, the role of the cAMP-PKA-CREB 
signaling pathway in such brain functions (In Ted Abel´s Lab at the 
University of Pennsylvania, where I spent 7 years). I generated 
several genetically modified mice in which I could regulate the 
expression of this pathway in specific brain regions and in which I 
studied the effects of upregulation or downregulation at the synaptic 
and behavioral levels. However, I am conscious that the information 
flow within the mouse Nervous System is far more complex that in the 
simple pathway that I was studying...so, my concrete question for 
you Fishers or Fisers, how should we contemplate the micro and 
macro structures of information within the neural realm? what is 
Neuroinformation?


Best wishes,


--
Carolina Isiegas



--
-
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 ( 6818)
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
-

___
Fis mailing list
Fis@listas.unizar.es
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis


Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

2014-12-05 Thread Dino Buzzetti
Dear FISers,

This discussion stirs reminiscences in me that go back
to my readings in medieval philosophy.  Please put up
with me if I recall them to you.

First, Peter Abelard — 12th century — gave a statue as
an example of what a universal (information?) is.  A
sculptor working on a marble block does not create
anything new: he/she just moves around small pieces
of marble and at the end of his/her work the marble
has just changed its status, it can be called a statue.
And the status does not add or remove anything from
the world, it's not physical.  Only God can add or remove
things physical from the world.

 And how do you express this new status in linguistic
terms ?  through a verb-like expression such as being-
a-statue.  And a verb-like expression is not a referential
one, it does not 'name' anything, it is a predicate.  Now
If you want to say something about a name-like expression,
or a predicate, you have to produce a second-order
statement.  And a second-order statement does not
describe the world, it is a rule or an inference ticket
(to use Gilbert Ryle's and Stephen Toulmin's expression)
to draw inferences about the world.

And that's my surmise about information.  It does
not constitute a principle of efficient or mechanical
causality, but it can be a causal principle albeit of a
different sort, and therefore it really is  something
in the world (Wheeler's bit?).  If you see something
as (recall Wittgenstein's seeing as) a broken marble
block or just a lump of any sort — something not
infrequent in modern art :-) — you might decide to
dispose of it, but if you see it as a statue, you might
decide to put it in a gallery.  Which is just to say that
it is difficult, or impossible, to account for information
in terms of something else, but it is perhaps best advised
to assume it as a basic and primary constituent of the
world.

Please forgive me for these untimely observations,
but this discussion prompted me to bring them forth.

Best,   -dino buzzetti

On 5 December 2014 at 07:15, Francesco Rizzo 13francesco.ri...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Cari Tutti,
 Krassimir Markov ha ragione. L'informazione è un processo spazio-temporale
 statico-dinamico. Un'opera d'arte o un bene culturale è nello stesso tempo
 informato e informatore.Per questo è meglio parlare di tras-informazione.
 La Neuroinformation è la più alta e completa forma di tras-informazione
 emo-ra-zionale (intelligenza razionale e intelligenza emotiva). Essa si
 articola in : significazione, informazione, comunicazione. Triade semiotica
 indispensabile per comprendere e interpretare ogni  esistenza e ogni
 conoscenza del mondo fisico, psichico e metafisico. Qualunque scienza
 naturale o umana o sociale non può farne a meno.
 Grazie e auguri per Carolina Isiegas.
 Francesco Rizzo.


 2014-12-04 15:57 GMT+01:00 Krassimir Markov mar...@foibg.com:

   Dear Bob,
 I think, there is no conflict between two points of view – information
 may be a process and it may be a static depending of what kind of
 reflection it is.
 For instance, we reflect the world around:
 - as static - by photos, art images, sculptures, etc.;
 - as dynamic - by movies, theater plays, ballet, etc.;
 - and, at the end, by both types – by static text which creates dynamical
 imaginations in our consciousness.
 Friendly regards
 Krassimir

 PS: This is my second post for this week. So, I say: Goodbye to the next
 one!



  *From:* Bob Logan lo...@physics.utoronto.ca
 *Sent:* Thursday, December 04, 2014 3:54 PM
 *To:* Joseph Brenner joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
 *Cc:* fis@listas.unizar.es
 *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

 Dear all - I support Joseph's remarks and would suggest that information
 in general is a process that unfortunately is formulated as a noun.
 Inspired by Bucky Fuller's I think I am a verb I suggest that Information
 is a verb It is a verb because it describes a process. Although that
 solves one problem we need to be able to describe a set of signs that have
 the potential to initiate the process of informing through interpretation.
 I would not suggest we create another word but recognize that the word
 information has many meanings and that when it is describing a process it
 has a verb-like quality to it and when it describes a set of sign that have
 the potential to be interpreted and hence become information it is acting
 as a noun. I would also suggest that a simple definition of the term
 information is not possible because its meaning is so context dependent.
 This is true of all words but even more so for information. For those that
 agree with my sentiments the above is information and for those that do not
 it is nonsense. My best wishes to both groups,  Bob Logan
  __

 Robert K. Logan
 Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto
 Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD
 http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan
 www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan
 www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications

Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

2014-12-05 Thread Bob Logan
Cara Francesco - I enjoyed your post, particularly  your sentence: Un'opera 
d'arte o un bene culturale è nello stesso tempo informato e informatore.  I 
interpreted it  to mean a work of art or a cultural good is at the same time 
informed and an informer.  In other words it is informed and it informs. It 
informs the one who beholds the work of art but by whom is the work of art  
informed. Grazie e auguri - Bob Logan
__

Robert K. Logan
Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto 
Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD
http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan
www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan
www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications








On 2014-12-05, at 1:15 AM, Francesco Rizzo wrote:

 Cari Tutti,
 Krassimir Markov ha ragione. L'informazione è un processo spazio-temporale 
 statico-dinamico. Un'opera d'arte o un bene culturale è nello stesso tempo 
 informato e informatore.Per questo è meglio parlare di tras-informazione. La 
 Neuroinformation è la più alta e completa forma di tras-informazione 
 emo-ra-zionale (intelligenza razionale e intelligenza emotiva). Essa si 
 articola in : significazione, informazione, comunicazione. Triade semiotica 
 indispensabile per comprendere e interpretare ogni  esistenza e ogni 
 conoscenza del mondo fisico, psichico e metafisico. Qualunque scienza 
 naturale o umana o sociale non può farne a meno.
 Grazie e auguri per Carolina Isiegas.
 Francesco Rizzo.
 
 
 2014-12-04 15:57 GMT+01:00 Krassimir Markov mar...@foibg.com:
 Dear Bob,
 I think, there is no conflict between two points of view – information may be 
 a process and it may be a static depending of what kind of reflection it is.
 For instance, we reflect the world around:
 - as static - by photos, art images, sculptures, etc.;
 - as dynamic - by movies, theater plays, ballet, etc.;
 - and, at the end, by both types – by static text which creates dynamical 
 imaginations in our consciousness.
 Friendly regards
 Krassimir
  
 PS: This is my second post for this week. So, I say: Goodbye to the next one!
  
  
  
 From: Bob Logan
 Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 3:54 PM
 To: Joseph Brenner
 Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
 Subject: Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?
  
 Dear all - I support Joseph's remarks and would suggest that information in 
 general is a process that unfortunately is formulated as a noun. Inspired by 
 Bucky Fuller's I think I am a verb I suggest that Information is a verb It 
 is a verb because it describes a process. Although that solves one problem we 
 need to be able to describe a set of signs that have the potential to 
 initiate the process of informing through interpretation. I would not suggest 
 we create another word but recognize that the word information has many 
 meanings and that when it is describing a process it has a verb-like quality 
 to it and when it describes a set of sign that have the potential to be 
 interpreted and hence become information it is acting as a noun. I would also 
 suggest that a simple definition of the term information is not possible 
 because its meaning is so context dependent. This is true of all words but 
 even more so for information. For those that agree with my sentiments the 
 above is information and for those that do not it is nonsense. My best wishes 
 to both groups,  Bob Logan
 __
  
 Robert K. Logan
 Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto
 Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD
 http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan
 www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan
 www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications
  
 
  
 
 
 
 
  
 On 2014-12-04, at 6:40 AM, Joseph Brenner wrote:
 
 Dear Dr. Isiegas,
 
 I will add my support to the extended concept of information that inheres in 
 the work of Robert Ulanowicz and John Collier. I would just add that I like 
 to call it information-as-process, to call attention to its 'structure' 
 being dynamic, with individual neurones involved in a cyclic (better spiral 
 or sinusoidal) movement between states of activation and inhibition. I have 
 ascribed an extension of logic to this form of alternating actual and 
 potential states in complex processes at all levels of reality.
 
 Best wishes,
 
 Joseph B.
 
 - Original Message - From: Robert E. Ulanowicz u...@umces.edu
 To: Carolina Isiegas cisie...@gmail.com
 Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
 Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 6:30 PM
 Subject: Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?
 
 
 Dear Dr. Isiegas:
 
 I envision neuroinformation as the mutual information of the neuronal
 network where synaptic connections are weighted by the frequencies of
 discharge between all pairs of neurons. This is directly analogous to a
 network of trophic exchanges among an ecosystem, as illustrated in
 http://people.biology.ufl.edu/ulan/pubs/SymmOvhd.PDF.
 
 Please note that this measure is different from the conventional
 sender-channel-receiver format of communications theory. It resembles more
 the structural information inhering

Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

2014-12-05 Thread Guy A Hoelzer
Hi All,

Like many here, I am very interested in the notion of neuroinformation and the 
contrast between information as static pattern or temporal process.  I want to 
suggest a way to think of the static and process views of information as 
identical concepts.  I take the static view to be something like the existence 
of a physical gradient or contrast in state between proximate spaces.  The 2nd 
law of thermodynamics tells us that all such gradients will tend to bread down 
(disorganize) over time.  Therefore, maintenance of static information requires 
a process.  This idea could apply nicely to neuroinformation.  For example, 
memories can fade if they are not accessed occasionally.  From this point of 
view, static contrasts and the processes that maintain them cannot be 
separated, much like pattern and process cannot be separated in the dissipative 
systems of Prigogine.

Regards,

Guy

Guy Hoelzer, Associate Professor
Department of Biology
University of Nevada Reno

Phone:  775-784-4860
Fax:  775-784-1302
hoel...@unr.edumailto:hoel...@unr.edu

On Dec 4, 2014, at 6:57 AM, Krassimir Markov 
mar...@foibg.commailto:mar...@foibg.com wrote:

Dear Bob,
I think, there is no conflict between two points of view – information may be a 
process and it may be a static depending of what kind of reflection it is.
For instance, we reflect the world around:
- as static - by photos, art images, sculptures, etc.;
- as dynamic - by movies, theater plays, ballet, etc.;
- and, at the end, by both types – by static text which creates dynamical 
imaginations in our consciousness.
Friendly regards
Krassimir

PS: This is my second post for this week. So, I say: Goodbye to the next one!



From: Bob Loganmailto:lo...@physics.utoronto.ca
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 3:54 PM
To: Joseph Brennermailto:joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Cc: fis@listas.unizar.esmailto:fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

Dear all - I support Joseph's remarks and would suggest that information in 
general is a process that unfortunately is formulated as a noun. Inspired by 
Bucky Fuller's I think I am a verb I suggest that Information is a verb It is 
a verb because it describes a process. Although that solves one problem we need 
to be able to describe a set of signs that have the potential to initiate the 
process of informing through interpretation. I would not suggest we create 
another word but recognize that the word information has many meanings and that 
when it is describing a process it has a verb-like quality to it and when it 
describes a set of sign that have the potential to be interpreted and hence 
become information it is acting as a noun. I would also suggest that a simple 
definition of the term information is not possible because its meaning is so 
context dependent. This is true of all words but even more so for information. 
For those that agree with my sentiments the above is information and for those 
that do not it is nonsense. My best wishes to both groups,  Bob Logan
__

Robert K. Logan
Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto
Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD
http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan
www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/loganhttp://www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan
www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publicationshttp://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications








On 2014-12-04, at 6:40 AM, Joseph Brenner wrote:

Dear Dr. Isiegas,

I will add my support to the extended concept of information that inheres in 
the work of Robert Ulanowicz and John Collier. I would just add that I like to 
call it information-as-process, to call attention to its 'structure' being 
dynamic, with individual neurones involved in a cyclic (better spiral or 
sinusoidal) movement between states of activation and inhibition. I have 
ascribed an extension of logic to this form of alternating actual and potential 
states in complex processes at all levels of reality.

Best wishes,

Joseph B.

- Original Message - From: Robert E. Ulanowicz 
u...@umces.edumailto:u...@umces.edu
To: Carolina Isiegas cisie...@gmail.commailto:cisie...@gmail.com
Cc: fis@listas.unizar.esmailto:fis@listas.unizar.es
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?


Dear Dr. Isiegas:

I envision neuroinformation as the mutual information of the neuronal
network where synaptic connections are weighted by the frequencies of
discharge between all pairs of neurons. This is directly analogous to a
network of trophic exchanges among an ecosystem, as illustrated in
http://people.biology.ufl.edu/ulan/pubs/SymmOvhd.PDF.

Please note that this measure is different from the conventional
sender-channel-receiver format of communications theory. It resembles more
the structural information inhering in the neuronal network. John
Collier (also a FISer) calls such information enformation to draw
attention to its different nature.

With best wishes for success,

Bob Ulanowicz

Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

2014-12-04 Thread Joseph Brenner

Dear Dr. Isiegas,

I will add my support to the extended concept of information that inheres in 
the work of Robert Ulanowicz and John Collier. I would just add that I like 
to call it information-as-process, to call attention to its 'structure' 
being dynamic, with individual neurones involved in a cyclic (better spiral 
or sinusoidal) movement between states of activation and inhibition. I have 
ascribed an extension of logic to this form of alternating actual and 
potential states in complex processes at all levels of reality.


Best wishes,

Joseph B.

- Original Message - 
From: Robert E. Ulanowicz u...@umces.edu

To: Carolina Isiegas cisie...@gmail.com
Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?


Dear Dr. Isiegas:

I envision neuroinformation as the mutual information of the neuronal
network where synaptic connections are weighted by the frequencies of
discharge between all pairs of neurons. This is directly analogous to a
network of trophic exchanges among an ecosystem, as illustrated in
http://people.biology.ufl.edu/ulan/pubs/SymmOvhd.PDF.

Please note that this measure is different from the conventional
sender-channel-receiver format of communications theory. It resembles more
the structural information inhering in the neuronal network. John
Collier (also a FISer) calls such information enformation to draw
attention to its different nature.

With best wishes for success,

Bob Ulanowicz


Dear list,

I have been reading during the last year all these interesting
exchanges. Some of them terrific discussions! Given my scientific
backgound
(Molecular Neuroscience), I would like to hear your point of view on the
topic of neuroinformation, how information exists within the Central
Nervous Systems. My task was experimental; I was interested in
investigating the molecular mechanisms underlying learning and memory,
specifically, the role of the cAMP-PKA-CREB signaling pathway in such
brain
functions (In Ted Abel´s Lab at the University of Pennsylvania, where I
spent 7 years). I generated several genetically modified mice in which I
could regulate the expression of this pathway in specific brain regions
and
in which I studied the effects of upregulation or downregulation at the
synaptic and behavioral levels. However, I am conscious that the
information flow within the mouse Nervous System is far more complex
that
in the simple pathway that I was studying...so, my concrete question for
you Fishers or Fisers, how should we contemplate the micro and macro
structures of information within the neural realm? what is
Neuroinformation?

Best wishes,


--
Carolina Isiegas
___
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Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

2014-12-04 Thread Krassimir Markov
Dear Pedro, Carolina and FIS Colleagues,

Firstly I want to congratulate Pedro and team for new FIS web site!
It looks nice and I am sure it will be useful tool for all of us.

Secondly – what is Neuroinformation?  
From point of view of General Information Theory, it is needed a Subject for 
which the reflection became information after receiving the evidence what the 
reflection reflects.
But what we have into the Subject?
Does he operate with information or only with signals and reflections? 
Who is/are internal Sub-Subject(s) and evidence(s)? 
After receiving answers to these questions we may create hypothesizes what is 
Neuroinformation.

I have my own understanding but it will be more good to listen other opinions.

What has been investigated by Neuroscience till now?

Friendly regards
Krassimir








From: Carolina Isiegas 
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 2:46 PM
To: fis@listas.unizar.es 
Subject: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

Dear list,


I have been reading during the last year all these interesting exchanges. 
Some of them terrific discussions! Given my scientific backgound (Molecular 
Neuroscience), I would like to hear your point of view on the topic of 
neuroinformation, how information exists within the Central Nervous Systems. 
My task was experimental; I was interested in investigating the molecular 
mechanisms underlying learning and memory, specifically, the role of the 
cAMP-PKA-CREB signaling pathway in such brain functions (In Ted Abel´s Lab at 
the University of Pennsylvania, where I spent 7 years). I generated several 
genetically modified mice in which I could regulate the expression of this 
pathway in specific brain regions and in which I studied the effects of 
upregulation or downregulation at the synaptic and behavioral levels. However, 
I am conscious that the information flow within the mouse Nervous System is 
far more complex that in the simple pathway that I was studying...so, my 
concrete question for you Fishers or Fisers, how should we contemplate the 
micro and macro structures of information within the neural realm? what is 
Neuroinformation?


Best wishes,



-- 

Carolina Isiegas




___
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Fis@listas.unizar.es
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
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Fis@listas.unizar.es
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Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

2014-12-04 Thread Bob Logan
Dear all - I support Joseph's remarks and would suggest that information in 
general is a process that unfortunately is formulated as a noun. Inspired by 
Bucky Fuller's I think I am a verb I suggest that Information is a verb It is 
a verb because it describes a process. Although that solves one problem we need 
to be able to describe a set of signs that have the potential to initiate the 
process of informing through interpretation. I would not suggest we create 
another word but recognize that the word information has many meanings and that 
when it is describing a process it has a verb-like quality to it and when it 
describes a set of sign that have the potential to be interpreted and hence 
become information it is acting as a noun. I would also suggest that a simple 
definition of the term information is not possible because its meaning is so 
context dependent. This is true of all words but even more so for information. 
For those that agree with my sentiments the above is information and for those 
that do not it is nonsense. My best wishes to both groups,  Bob Logan
__

Robert K. Logan
Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto 
Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD
http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan
www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan
www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications








On 2014-12-04, at 6:40 AM, Joseph Brenner wrote:

 Dear Dr. Isiegas,
 
 I will add my support to the extended concept of information that inheres in 
 the work of Robert Ulanowicz and John Collier. I would just add that I like 
 to call it information-as-process, to call attention to its 'structure' being 
 dynamic, with individual neurones involved in a cyclic (better spiral or 
 sinusoidal) movement between states of activation and inhibition. I have 
 ascribed an extension of logic to this form of alternating actual and 
 potential states in complex processes at all levels of reality.
 
 Best wishes,
 
 Joseph B.
 
 - Original Message - From: Robert E. Ulanowicz u...@umces.edu
 To: Carolina Isiegas cisie...@gmail.com
 Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
 Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 6:30 PM
 Subject: Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?
 
 
 Dear Dr. Isiegas:
 
 I envision neuroinformation as the mutual information of the neuronal
 network where synaptic connections are weighted by the frequencies of
 discharge between all pairs of neurons. This is directly analogous to a
 network of trophic exchanges among an ecosystem, as illustrated in
 http://people.biology.ufl.edu/ulan/pubs/SymmOvhd.PDF.
 
 Please note that this measure is different from the conventional
 sender-channel-receiver format of communications theory. It resembles more
 the structural information inhering in the neuronal network. John
 Collier (also a FISer) calls such information enformation to draw
 attention to its different nature.
 
 With best wishes for success,
 
 Bob Ulanowicz
 
 Dear list,
 
I have been reading during the last year all these interesting
 exchanges. Some of them terrific discussions! Given my scientific
 backgound
 (Molecular Neuroscience), I would like to hear your point of view on the
 topic of neuroinformation, how information exists within the Central
 Nervous Systems. My task was experimental; I was interested in
 investigating the molecular mechanisms underlying learning and memory,
 specifically, the role of the cAMP-PKA-CREB signaling pathway in such
 brain
 functions (In Ted Abel´s Lab at the University of Pennsylvania, where I
 spent 7 years). I generated several genetically modified mice in which I
 could regulate the expression of this pathway in specific brain regions
 and
 in which I studied the effects of upregulation or downregulation at the
 synaptic and behavioral levels. However, I am conscious that the
 information flow within the mouse Nervous System is far more complex
 that
 in the simple pathway that I was studying...so, my concrete question for
 you Fishers or Fisers, how should we contemplate the micro and macro
 structures of information within the neural realm? what is
 Neuroinformation?
 
 Best wishes,
 
 
 --
 Carolina Isiegas
 ___
 Fis mailing list
 Fis@listas.unizar.es
 http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
 
 
 
 ___
 Fis mailing list
 Fis@listas.unizar.es
 http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis 
 ___
 Fis mailing list
 Fis@listas.unizar.es
 http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

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Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

2014-12-04 Thread Krassimir Markov
Dear Bob,
I think, there is no conflict between two points of view – information may be a 
process and it may be a static depending of what kind of reflection it is.
For instance, we reflect the world around:
- as static - by photos, art images, sculptures, etc.; 
- as dynamic - by movies, theater plays, ballet, etc.; 
- and, at the end, by both types – by static text which creates dynamical 
imaginations in our consciousness.
Friendly regards
Krassimir

PS: This is my second post for this week. So, I say: Goodbye to the next one!



From: Bob Logan 
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 3:54 PM
To: Joseph Brenner 
Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es 
Subject: Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

Dear all - I support Joseph's remarks and would suggest that information in 
general is a process that unfortunately is formulated as a noun. Inspired by 
Bucky Fuller's I think I am a verb I suggest that Information is a verb It is 
a verb because it describes a process. Although that solves one problem we need 
to be able to describe a set of signs that have the potential to initiate the 
process of informing through interpretation. I would not suggest we create 
another word but recognize that the word information has many meanings and that 
when it is describing a process it has a verb-like quality to it and when it 
describes a set of sign that have the potential to be interpreted and hence 
become information it is acting as a noun. I would also suggest that a simple 
definition of the term information is not possible because its meaning is so 
context dependent. This is true of all words but even more so for information. 
For those that agree with my sentiments the above is information and for those 
that do not it is nonsense. My best wishes to both groups,  Bob Logan

__ 

Robert K. Logan
Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto 
Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD 
http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan 
www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan
www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications













On 2014-12-04, at 6:40 AM, Joseph Brenner wrote:


  Dear Dr. Isiegas,

  I will add my support to the extended concept of information that inheres in 
the work of Robert Ulanowicz and John Collier. I would just add that I like to 
call it information-as-process, to call attention to its 'structure' being 
dynamic, with individual neurones involved in a cyclic (better spiral or 
sinusoidal) movement between states of activation and inhibition. I have 
ascribed an extension of logic to this form of alternating actual and potential 
states in complex processes at all levels of reality.

  Best wishes,

  Joseph B.

  - Original Message - From: Robert E. Ulanowicz u...@umces.edu
  To: Carolina Isiegas cisie...@gmail.com
  Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
  Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 6:30 PM
  Subject: Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?


  Dear Dr. Isiegas:

  I envision neuroinformation as the mutual information of the neuronal
  network where synaptic connections are weighted by the frequencies of
  discharge between all pairs of neurons. This is directly analogous to a
  network of trophic exchanges among an ecosystem, as illustrated in
  http://people.biology.ufl.edu/ulan/pubs/SymmOvhd.PDF.

  Please note that this measure is different from the conventional
  sender-channel-receiver format of communications theory. It resembles more
  the structural information inhering in the neuronal network. John
  Collier (also a FISer) calls such information enformation to draw
  attention to its different nature.

  With best wishes for success,

  Bob Ulanowicz


Dear list,



   I have been reading during the last year all these interesting

exchanges. Some of them terrific discussions! Given my scientific

backgound

(Molecular Neuroscience), I would like to hear your point of view on the

topic of neuroinformation, how information exists within the Central

Nervous Systems. My task was experimental; I was interested in

investigating the molecular mechanisms underlying learning and memory,

specifically, the role of the cAMP-PKA-CREB signaling pathway in such

brain

functions (In Ted Abel´s Lab at the University of Pennsylvania, where I

spent 7 years). I generated several genetically modified mice in which I

could regulate the expression of this pathway in specific brain regions

and

in which I studied the effects of upregulation or downregulation at the

synaptic and behavioral levels. However, I am conscious that the

information flow within the mouse Nervous System is far more complex

that

in the simple pathway that I was studying...so, my concrete question for

you Fishers or Fisers, how should we contemplate the micro and macro

structures of information within the neural realm? what is

Neuroinformation?



Best wishes,





--

Carolina Isiegas

Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

2014-12-04 Thread Francesco Rizzo
Cari Tutti,
Krassimir Markov ha ragione. L'informazione è un processo spazio-temporale
statico-dinamico. Un'opera d'arte o un bene culturale è nello stesso tempo
informato e informatore.Per questo è meglio parlare di tras-informazione.
La Neuroinformation è la più alta e completa forma di tras-informazione
emo-ra-zionale (intelligenza razionale e intelligenza emotiva). Essa si
articola in : significazione, informazione, comunicazione. Triade semiotica
indispensabile per comprendere e interpretare ogni  esistenza e ogni
conoscenza del mondo fisico, psichico e metafisico. Qualunque scienza
naturale o umana o sociale non può farne a meno.
Grazie e auguri per Carolina Isiegas.
Francesco Rizzo.


2014-12-04 15:57 GMT+01:00 Krassimir Markov mar...@foibg.com:

   Dear Bob,
 I think, there is no conflict between two points of view – information may
 be a process and it may be a static depending of what kind of reflection it
 is.
 For instance, we reflect the world around:
 - as static - by photos, art images, sculptures, etc.;
 - as dynamic - by movies, theater plays, ballet, etc.;
 - and, at the end, by both types – by static text which creates dynamical
 imaginations in our consciousness.
 Friendly regards
 Krassimir

 PS: This is my second post for this week. So, I say: Goodbye to the next
 one!



  *From:* Bob Logan lo...@physics.utoronto.ca
 *Sent:* Thursday, December 04, 2014 3:54 PM
 *To:* Joseph Brenner joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
 *Cc:* fis@listas.unizar.es
 *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

 Dear all - I support Joseph's remarks and would suggest that information
 in general is a process that unfortunately is formulated as a noun.
 Inspired by Bucky Fuller's I think I am a verb I suggest that Information
 is a verb It is a verb because it describes a process. Although that
 solves one problem we need to be able to describe a set of signs that have
 the potential to initiate the process of informing through interpretation.
 I would not suggest we create another word but recognize that the word
 information has many meanings and that when it is describing a process it
 has a verb-like quality to it and when it describes a set of sign that have
 the potential to be interpreted and hence become information it is acting
 as a noun. I would also suggest that a simple definition of the term
 information is not possible because its meaning is so context dependent.
 This is true of all words but even more so for information. For those that
 agree with my sentiments the above is information and for those that do not
 it is nonsense. My best wishes to both groups,  Bob Logan
  __

 Robert K. Logan
 Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto
 Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD
 http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan
 www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan
 www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications








  On 2014-12-04, at 6:40 AM, Joseph Brenner wrote:

  Dear Dr. Isiegas,

 I will add my support to the extended concept of information that inheres
 in the work of Robert Ulanowicz and John Collier. I would just add that I
 like to call it information-as-process, to call attention to its
 'structure' being dynamic, with individual neurones involved in a cyclic
 (better spiral or sinusoidal) movement between states of activation and
 inhibition. I have ascribed an extension of logic to this form of
 alternating actual and potential states in complex processes at all levels
 of reality.

 Best wishes,

 Joseph B.

 - Original Message - From: Robert E. Ulanowicz u...@umces.edu
 To: Carolina Isiegas cisie...@gmail.com
 Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
 Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 6:30 PM
 Subject: Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?


 Dear Dr. Isiegas:

 I envision neuroinformation as the mutual information of the neuronal
 network where synaptic connections are weighted by the frequencies of
 discharge between all pairs of neurons. This is directly analogous to a
 network of trophic exchanges among an ecosystem, as illustrated in
 http://people.biology.ufl.edu/ulan/pubs/SymmOvhd.PDF.

 Please note that this measure is different from the conventional
 sender-channel-receiver format of communications theory. It resembles more
 the structural information inhering in the neuronal network. John
 Collier (also a FISer) calls such information enformation to draw
 attention to its different nature.

 With best wishes for success,

 Bob Ulanowicz

 Dear list,


I have been reading during the last year all these interesting

 exchanges. Some of them terrific discussions! Given my scientific

 backgound

 (Molecular Neuroscience), I would like to hear your point of view on the

 topic of neuroinformation, how information exists within the Central

 Nervous Systems. My task was experimental; I was interested in

 investigating the molecular mechanisms underlying learning and memory,

 specifically, the role of the cAMP-PKA-CREB signaling pathway in such

 brain

 functions (In Ted Abel´s

Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

2014-12-03 Thread Lars-Göran Johansson
I suggest that you take a look at Floridis book 'Philosophy of Information' 
where he distinguishes three senses of the word 'information' and one of which 
seems to fit what you are asking about , viz., 'Neuroinformation'.
regards 
Lars-Göran Johansson

3 dec 2014 kl. 13:46 skrev Carolina Isiegas cisie...@gmail.com:

 Dear list,
 
 I have been reading during the last year all these interesting exchanges. 
 Some of them terrific discussions! Given my scientific backgound (Molecular 
 Neuroscience), I would like to hear your point of view on the topic of 
 neuroinformation, how information exists within the Central Nervous 
 Systems. My task was experimental; I was interested in investigating the 
 molecular mechanisms underlying learning and memory, specifically, the role 
 of the cAMP-PKA-CREB signaling pathway in such brain functions (In Ted Abel´s 
 Lab at the University of Pennsylvania, where I spent 7 years). I generated 
 several genetically modified mice in which I could regulate the expression of 
 this pathway in specific brain regions and in which I studied the effects of 
 upregulation or downregulation at the synaptic and behavioral levels. 
 However, I am conscious that the information flow within the mouse Nervous 
 System is far more complex that in the simple pathway that I was 
 studying...so, my concrete question for you Fishers or Fisers, how should 
 we contemplate the micro and macro structures of information within the 
 neural realm? what is Neuroinformation?
 
 Best wishes,
 
 
 -- 
 Carolina Isiegas
 ___
 Fis mailing list
 Fis@listas.unizar.es
 http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

--
Lars-Göran Johansson
professor
filosofiska institutionen
Uppsala Universitet




___
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Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

2014-12-03 Thread Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic
Very interesting. It might also be useful to connect information to
computation as information dynamics.
Information self-structuring and morphological computing are of interest.
See for example:

http://www.indiana.edu/~cortex/ICDL05_paper.pdf Information
Self-Structuring: Key Principle for Learning
and Development 

This type of computation (biological, neurocomputation) is richer both
temporally and spatially than Turing Machine model ca capture. See:
http://csc.ucdavis.edu/~cmg/papers/Crutchfield.CHAOSIntro2010.pdf Santa Fe
Institute Working Paper 10-11-024
Beyond the Digital Hegemony. A Focus Issue on Intrinsic and Designed
Computation: Information Processing in Dynamical Systems


So if brain structures compute, this computation is much more complex than
a simple mechanical clockwork-type process.

Conferences in the series http://www.neuroinformatics2013.org and
http://www.neuroinformatics2014.org are also closely related.
Neuroscientists talk about information processing in the brain and mutual
information (see the first article).

Information can be seen as structures and computation as the dynamics of
those structures. 
Both are complex in case of brain - the structures are fractal and
processes are parallel concurrent and distributed.

We are still trying to develop suitable frameworks both in information
theory and in theory of computation,
at the same time with learning more about brain - it is a two-way
development process.

There is a beautiful article: Lila Kari, Grzegorz Rozenberg: The many
facets of natural computing - that addresses those new developments.
http://delivery.acm.org/10.1145/141/1400200/p72-kari.pdf?ip=129.16.219.
106id=1400200acc=ACTIVE%20SERVICEkey=74F7687761D7AE37%2E3C5D6C4574200C81
%2E4D4702B0C3E38B35%2E4D4702B0C3E38B35CFID=460437900CFTOKEN=86096657__ac
m__=1417615447_3795fbeab8c8723f1f2fb7884c2936b2


With best regards,
Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic





Gordana Dodig Crnkovic, Professor of Computer Science
Chalmers University of Technology  University of Gothenburg, Sweden
http://www.ait.gu.se/kontaktaoss/personal/gordana-dodig-crnkovic/
School of Innovation, Design and Engineering, Mälardalen University
http://www.mrtc.mdh.se/~gdc/








On 03/12/14 13:55, Lars-Göran Johansson
lars-goran.johans...@filosofi.uu.se wrote:

I suggest that you take a look at Floridis book 'Philosophy of
Information' where he distinguishes three senses of the word
'information' and one of which seems to fit what you are asking about ,
viz., 'Neuroinformation'.
regards 
Lars-Göran Johansson

3 dec 2014 kl. 13:46 skrev Carolina Isiegas cisie...@gmail.com:

 Dear list,
 
 I have been reading during the last year all these interesting
exchanges. Some of them terrific discussions! Given my scientific
backgound (Molecular Neuroscience), I would like to hear your point of
view on the topic of neuroinformation, how information exists within
the Central Nervous Systems. My task was experimental; I was interested
in investigating the molecular mechanisms underlying learning and
memory, specifically, the role of the cAMP-PKA-CREB signaling pathway in
such brain functions (In Ted Abel´s Lab at the University of
Pennsylvania, where I spent 7 years). I generated several genetically
modified mice in which I could regulate the expression of this pathway
in specific brain regions and in which I studied the effects of
upregulation or downregulation at the synaptic and behavioral levels.
However, I am conscious that the information flow within the mouse
Nervous System is far more complex that in the simple pathway that I
was studying...so, my concrete question for you Fishers or Fisers,
how should we contemplate the micro and macro structures of information
within the neural realm? what is Neuroinformation?
 
 Best wishes,
 
 
 -- 
 Carolina Isiegas
 ___
 Fis mailing list
 Fis@listas.unizar.es
 http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

--
Lars-Göran Johansson
professor
filosofiska institutionen
Uppsala Universitet




___
Fis mailing list
Fis@listas.unizar.es
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis


___
Fis mailing list
Fis@listas.unizar.es
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis


Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

2014-12-03 Thread Robert E. Ulanowicz
Dear Dr. Isiegas:

I envision neuroinformation as the mutual information of the neuronal
network where synaptic connections are weighted by the frequencies of
discharge between all pairs of neurons. This is directly analogous to a
network of trophic exchanges among an ecosystem, as illustrated in
http://people.biology.ufl.edu/ulan/pubs/SymmOvhd.PDF.

Please note that this measure is different from the conventional
sender-channel-receiver format of communications theory. It resembles more
the structural information inhering in the neuronal network. John
Collier (also a FISer) calls such information enformation to draw
attention to its different nature.

With best wishes for success,

Bob Ulanowicz

 Dear list,

 I have been reading during the last year all these interesting
 exchanges. Some of them terrific discussions! Given my scientific
 backgound
 (Molecular Neuroscience), I would like to hear your point of view on the
 topic of neuroinformation, how information exists within the Central
 Nervous Systems. My task was experimental; I was interested in
 investigating the molecular mechanisms underlying learning and memory,
 specifically, the role of the cAMP-PKA-CREB signaling pathway in such
 brain
 functions (In Ted Abel´s Lab at the University of Pennsylvania, where I
 spent 7 years). I generated several genetically modified mice in which I
 could regulate the expression of this pathway in specific brain regions
 and
 in which I studied the effects of upregulation or downregulation at the
 synaptic and behavioral levels. However, I am conscious that the
 information flow within the mouse Nervous System is far more complex
 that
 in the simple pathway that I was studying...so, my concrete question for
 you Fishers or Fisers, how should we contemplate the micro and macro
 structures of information within the neural realm? what is
 Neuroinformation?

 Best wishes,


 --
 Carolina Isiegas
 ___
 Fis mailing list
 Fis@listas.unizar.es
 http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis



___
Fis mailing list
Fis@listas.unizar.es
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis


Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

2014-12-03 Thread Karl Javorszky
Dear Dr. Isiegas,

let me offer some proposals as to the underlying concepts that
differentiate treatment of information in the technical and in the biologic
understanding.

The neuronal process is both sequential and commutative: commutative in the
sense that chemical reactions take place concurrently (not one after the
other), sequential in the sense that the burst is uniform and comes after a
number of ticks (minimal steps of a temporal nature), like a 1 coming after
x 0s, and then follow y ticks of 0 again before the next 1.

The interplay between sequenced and non-sequenced is fascinating. It
appears to this person, that there must exist a threshold after which a
qualitatively different process takes place that breaks the space-matter
continuum. I think of the same disruptive transformation as observed or
interpreted with explosions, supernovae or collapses. We see that there is
a gradual process which reaches a limit, after which the process cannot
exist, and even the implications of the process become logically impossible.

This MIGHT (maybe, just suggesting) be related to the information content
in an expression reaching Zero, that is, the redundancy having been
eliminated. In this approach information and redundancy are two sides
of the same coin. The coin can be visualised by agreeing that the
denotation of a logical fact cannot carry any information, as it is by
definition a part of a tautological system. (If we figure out once and for
all, e.g., how the Sun digests and spits and pulls and does its manifold
effects, this naked relation among logical objects will be no news, as it
will be a part of the great tautology of a complicated multiplication
table: it will become self-evident and we shall say: of course, this cannot
function otherwise.) The scientific process, the step-by-step way until we
unclothe and discover the quintessential fact, that is information - and
this is also a redundancy. Which steps we have gone thru, which cul-de-sacs
we have visited, that is information. This we realise after we recognise
that these digressions are not that what we have been looking for.

Presently, we embellish our ideas about, say, e.g. the Sun,  and it is
information that previously, people have thought the Sun to be a God or
even the main god.

Recognising the quintessence, the skeleton of interdependences is peeling
off connotations, until that remains which is pure logic - and that cannot
be of any informational value above Zero (as it cannot be otherwise), as
Kant has pointed out.

As to the methods of how to cause a logical explosion, please contemplate
that sequences and assemblies of a contemporary nature (mixtures) have
massive logical contradictions (see www.OEIS.org A242615) which result in
the system of additions not being correct in some cases, as there appear
either too much material or too much distance among material entities, so
there has to be a disruption. This will take place only if the succession
is in its mathematically pure form, that is, without any redundancies. This
means that within a set no duplicates are allowed.

So, the proposal of this person is to look into the process of uniquify-ing
the constituents of the assembly, because if the collection is in its ideal
state, it will blow up.

Squeezing out redundancy can only be driven up to a point, where there is
no more redundancy to be eliminated. In this moment, basic contradictions
appear and result in a breakdown of the continuity. That Nature has managed
to restart after a mini-catastrophe, even to make use of this planned
breakdown as a signal is what is for me the information in our search for
the mechanism that is neuro-information. The usage of a lightning that is
being provoced by chemical processes.

Hope that this can be helpful.

Karl

2014-12-03 13:46 GMT+01:00 Carolina Isiegas cisie...@gmail.com:

 Dear list,

 I have been reading during the last year all these interesting
 exchanges. Some of them terrific discussions! Given my scientific backgound
 (Molecular Neuroscience), I would like to hear your point of view on the
 topic of neuroinformation, how information exists within the Central
 Nervous Systems. My task was experimental; I was interested in
 investigating the molecular mechanisms underlying learning and memory,
 specifically, the role of the cAMP-PKA-CREB signaling pathway in such brain
 functions (In Ted Abel´s Lab at the University of Pennsylvania, where I
 spent 7 years). I generated several genetically modified mice in which I
 could regulate the expression of this pathway in specific brain regions and
 in which I studied the effects of upregulation or downregulation at the
 synaptic and behavioral levels. However, I am conscious that the
 information flow within the mouse Nervous System is far more complex that
 in the simple pathway that I was studying...so, my concrete question for
 you Fishers or Fisers, how should we contemplate the micro and macro
 structures of information within