Re: [Fis] THE NEW YEAR ESSAY Fis Digest, Vol 10, Issue 11 Mechanism and Model

2015-01-19 Thread Francesco Rizzo
Cari Tutti,
nei miei numerosi libri, a partire da Economia del patrimonio
architettonico-ambientale (1983), ho sostenuto che la triade semiotica
significazione, informazione e comunicazione attraversa il mondo biologico,
fisico e sociale e viceversa il mondo biologico, fisico e sociale
attraversa la triade semiotica significazione, informazione e
comunicazione. Quindi non ha senso pensare che il mondo informativo sia
separato dagli altri mondi (cfr. Maturana e Varela). A seconda i processi
 o modelli dei suddetti mondi che si considerano si possono usare alcune o
tutte le categorie di informazioni possibili: genetica (genealogica),
termodinamica o naturale (entropico/neg-entropica), matematica
(entropico-cibernetica)  e semantica (storico-culturale o
significato-significante). Le stesse unità autopoietiche possono allentare
o ridurre la loro auto-referenzialità mediante l'informazione-comunicazione
che supera la rigidezza o la chiusura dei loro codici. Per questo in
Valore e valutazioni (1999) mi sono posto in una situazione intermedia
tra Maturana-Varela e Niklas Luhmann. Per comprendere meglio il mio
approccio è necessario: assegnare all'economia il ruolo di scienza delle
scienze che le conferiva  anche Ernst Mach; considerare l'informazione la
legge delle leggi di tutte le scienze dell'uomo e della natura.l
Un abbraccio affettuoso a Tutti, da un poverino esponenziale, quale sono.
Francesco Rizzo.

2015-01-19 20:37 GMT+01:00 Joshua Augustus Bacigalupi

 Josh Bacigalupi here, fellow pirate.  Thank you all for this thoughtful

 Work is a fundamental focus of Terry's project.  We can all agree that the
 creation of entropy is necessary to do work; such degradation of a gradient
 is a necessary precondition of work potential, but not just any work.  The
 specific kind of work that some self-entailed proto-cell does in its
 environment must be such that it increases the chances that such nascent
 agency will have increased the chances of its own propagation in that open
 system.  Terry calls this teleodynamic work.

 But this isn't even the most stringent requirement we place on ourselves.
 Not only must this work be relevant to its own persistence, *the
 constraints necessary to enact this specific dynamic must be able to
 persist for some finite time in the absence of any gradient what-so-ever.*
 In other words, Terry's hypothesized autogen is specifically conceived to
 retain the capacity to do self-efficacious work even after local chemical
 equalibrium has been attained.

 Once a gradient is again available, any viable autogen must be able to
 restart the very specific co-constraints of auto-catalysis and
 self-organized containment, a process that we suggest must be able to both
 self-repair and create new sets of co-constraint in wholly novel
 substrates.  This, in effect, spans the ontological gap from the vast
 majority of physico-chemical dynamics to the first distinct dynamic of a
 measurable medium of informational significance, whose benchmark of
 significance is the persistence of autogenic constraints.

 Although intriguing, we are skeptical when speculating about vastly more
 complex and likely intentional agents, like bacterium, or clearly
 intentional agents, like humans.  We suggest that focus on a priori
 intentional agency skips the distinct logical step from ubiquitous
 self-organizing dynamics, where rate of entropy production is increased
 (dissipating not only the external gradient but the internal organization
 itself), to the relatively rare teleodynamics, where rate of entropy and
 work production are mitigated by the autogen's normative relation to its


 On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 8:51 PM, Terrence W. DEACON

 Hi Joseph,

 Glad to have you join in. My goal is (paraphrasing Einstein) to
 develop a model system that is as simple as possible but not too
 simple to provide a foundation for formalizing the concepts of
 reference and significance. If too simple, it would be helpful to know
 what is specifically missing.

 In considering more complex model systems the critical constraint is
 to avoid cryptically assuming a homuncular perspective that sneaks in
 some undescribed mentality (often an external observational
 perspective) to do the interpretive work and to define what
 constitutes reference and significance. I am unwilling to use a
 bacterium as my model, because we implicitly assume their end-directed
 and sensing capacities without explaining them. Nor am I willing to
 assume that nucleic acids are intrinsically informational or that
 information is just pattern replication, as has become a common
 assumption in many evolutionary theories.

 As I have said a number of times, my goal is not to deal with all
 aspects of the information concept, and certainly not at the level of
 human thought. I merely propose to dissolve the implicit dualism in
 our current concepts at the 

Re: [Fis] THE NEW YEAR ESSAY Fis Digest, Vol 10, Issue 11 Mechanism and Model

2015-01-19 Thread Terrence W. DEACON
PS typo correction line 5 from bottom:

... To specify information *that* a given constraint-state of a

On 1/19/15, Terrence W. DEACON wrote:
 Hi Loet,

 I do indeed consider this relationship to be measurable and thus
 expressible mathematically. This in itself doesn't mean that it
 ignores content. Indeed, a specific content and a specific target
 function-state are prerequisites, and so must be assumed in the
 analysis. In my opinion, as necessary assumptions, this makes the part
 of the background physics. So there must be both universality and
 physical specificity to this analysis— the specificity of referent and
 significant end-state treated as givens in the equation.

 The term expected plays a crucial role here. It introduces a
 Bayesian implication behind Shannon's analysis. But it also is what
 necessitates the self-repairing, self-reproducing features of
 autogenesis. To specify information what a given constraint-state of a
 medium represents there must be a reference state. However, it cannot
 be MEP or even maximum thermodynamic entropy (analogous to Shannon's
 entropy) but instead the work differential between current state of
 degraded autogenesis and a reconstituted or reproduced autogen.

 — Terry

 On 1/18/15, Loet Leydesdorff wrote:
 Dear Terry and colleagues,

 “As I have said a number of times, my goal is not to deal with all
 of the information concept, and certainly not at the level of human
 I merely propose to dissolve the implicit dualism in our current concepts
 the most basic level, so that for example it will be possible to develop
 scientifically grounded theory of molecular biosemiotics.”

 Is the crucial point that an expected information content is always
 referential to a maximum entropy and therefore a relational concept? The
 significance/meaning is thus provided by the redundancy?

 I doubt whether this is part of the physics (as you seem to claim). It
 follows from the math and is yet content free; in other words, it can be
 provided with meaning given any system of reference or, in other words,
 discourse. The universality of the claim would thus be based on the
 mathematical (dimensionless) character of it.



 Professor Terrence W. Deacon
 University of California, Berkeley

Professor Terrence W. Deacon
University of California, Berkeley

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